Re: solid state storage device with USB type-A plug for use as OS drive (was Re: Installation "Bullseye")

[David Christensen]

On 2/12/22 09:40, Stefan Monnier wrote:

The relevant stat is the total data written specification. It's
usually in "terabytes written".

For a 1 TB SSD, 300TBW is bad. 600 is pretty bad. 1200 is okay
for a desktop. 1800 is reasonable for some server applications.


I think the "bad" vs "good" judgment above relates to what is commonly
available (so it really expresses whether it's near the bottom or near
the top of the range of available drives) but in practice what matters
more is the intended use of the drive.

Hence the question: what does "high-endurance" mean to the OP (as
opposed to "to the market")?


 Stefan



"High endurance" means "I will not be awoken in the middle of the night 
by the smell of fried electronics".  This was what happened when I was 
using SanDisk Ultra Fit USB 3.0 128 GB flash drives for Time Machine 
backups.



I have several 16 GB models of the same drive and they have survived 
usage as Debian and FreeBSD OS disks.  I very much like their compact 
size, but do not like their heat generation.  I am worried that they may 
suffer the same fate as above.



David

Re: solid state storage device with USB type-A plug for use as OS drive (was Re: Installation "Bullseye")

[David Christensen]

On 2/11/22 05:30, Dan Ritter wrote:

Stefan Monnier wrote:

David Christensen [2022-02-10 18:22:46] wrote:

On 2/10/22 01:37, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

What's high-endurance in your terms?

I am unable to find manufacturer specifications to quantify what "high
endurance" means, but I do own a 128 GB SanDisk High Endurance microSD card
and that is where I heard the phrase:


But you said you wanted high-endurance, so presumably you have some idea
of what you mean by that?
Otherwise it would sound like you just want to check someone
else's buzzwords.


The relevant stat is the total data written specification. It's
usually in "terabytes written".

For a 1 TB SSD, 300TBW is bad. 600 is pretty bad. 1200 is okay
for a desktop. 1800 is reasonable for some server applications.

A Seagate Firecuda 520 specifies 1800.

An XPG Gammix specifies 740.

A Micron 9300 MAX is about 10,000.

-dsr-



Thank you for providing engineering data that demonstrates the 
"endurance" of various products.



Unfortunately, such specifications are not available for every flash, 
solid-state, etc., storage device that can be accessed via a USB Type A 
connector (directly, or indirectly via an adapter).



David

Re: solid state storage device with USB type-A plug for use as OS drive (was Re: Installation "Bullseye")

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 7:48 AM Dan Ritter  wrote:

> Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > David Christensen [2022-02-10 18:22:46] wrote:
> > > On 2/10/22 01:37, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > >> What's high-endurance in your terms?
> > > I am unable to find manufacturer specifications to quantify what "high
> > > endurance" means, but I do own a 128 GB SanDisk High Endurance microSD
> card
> > > and that is where I heard the phrase:
> >
> > But you said you wanted high-endurance, so presumably you have some idea
> > of what you mean by that?
> > Otherwise it would sound like you just want to check someone
> > else's buzzwords.
>
> The relevant stat is the total data written specification. It's
> usually in "terabytes written".
>

The general idea is that EEPROM can sustain a finite number of rewrites
before failure. In many (older?) cases the claimed rewrite count was hugely
inflated or simply couldn't be maintained in the manufacturing process.

For a 1 TB SSD, 300TBW is bad. 600 is pretty bad. 1200 is okay
> for a desktop. 1800 is reasonable for some server applications.
>
> A Seagate Firecuda 520 specifies 1800.
>
> An XPG Gammix specifies 740.
>
> A Micron 9300 MAX is about 10,000.
>
> -dsr-
>
>

Re: solid state storage device with USB type-A plug for use as OS drive (was Re: Installation "Bullseye")

[Dan Ritter]

Stefan Monnier wrote: 
> David Christensen [2022-02-10 18:22:46] wrote:
> > On 2/10/22 01:37, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> >> What's high-endurance in your terms?
> > I am unable to find manufacturer specifications to quantify what "high
> > endurance" means, but I do own a 128 GB SanDisk High Endurance microSD card
> > and that is where I heard the phrase:
> 
> But you said you wanted high-endurance, so presumably you have some idea
> of what you mean by that?
> Otherwise it would sound like you just want to check someone
> else's buzzwords.

The relevant stat is the total data written specification. It's
usually in "terabytes written".

For a 1 TB SSD, 300TBW is bad. 600 is pretty bad. 1200 is okay
for a desktop. 1800 is reasonable for some server applications.

A Seagate Firecuda 520 specifies 1800.

An XPG Gammix specifies 740.

A Micron 9300 MAX is about 10,000.

-dsr-

Re: solid state storage device with USB type-A plug for use as OS drive (was Re: Installation "Bullseye")

[David Christensen]

On 2/10/22 04:28, Anssi Saari wrote:

David Christensen  writes:


I am looking for a small (~16 GB), low power, high-endurance,
solid-state storage device with a USB 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A plug,
powered by a USB 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A receptacle, which is designed
to be used as a system drive.  I would use it to install and run
commercial and FOSS OS's (Windows, macOS, Debian and FreeBSD) on
SBC's, laptops, tablets, desktops, workstations, servers, etc..


I don't know if it's relevant to your case but when I wanted a USB SSD a
few years ago, I just bought a case from eBay I think. Brand was "JEYI"
and they advertized the control chip used and TRIM support right in the
subject.

The case is a little wider than a usual USB memory sticks and takes
standard m.2 SSDs. Only the smaller physical sizes though, I think 2240
and 2232 which aren't that common any more. But back then Sandisk 2240
120 GB SSDs were common and it's still going strong.

These days looks like the 2280 form factor dominates and 120 GB is the
cheapest size. Smaller ones are around, both physical and capacity but
they cost more. Oh and JEYI still makes USB adapter cases for m.2 SSDs.



Okay.


David

Re: solid state storage device with USB type-A plug for use as OS drive (was Re: Installation "Bullseye")

[David Christensen]

On 2/10/22 02:12, gene heskett wrote:


On Wed, Feb 09, 2022 at 06:50:49PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:



I am looking for a small (~16 GB), low power, high-endurance,
solid-state storage device with a USB 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A plug,
powered by a USB 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A receptacle, which is
designed to be used as a system drive.  I would use it to install
and run commercial and FOSS OS's (Windows, macOS, Debian and
FreeBSD) on SBC's, laptops, tablets, desktops, workstations,
servers, etc..



As an alternative, StarTech makes two USB to sata adapter/ cables.  I
need to do more search to see if my SSD's are compatible:

https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/usb3s2sat3cb


I think its this one or maybe a predesessor that I have 2 of plugged into
my rpi4, used as a kernel and LinuxCNC development system with a total of
360G of SSD storage. The pi's swap has been moved to them also. They have
Just Worked now for close to 2 years. Plugged unto the rpi4's usb-3
ports, the speed limit is the pi, not the drives. Either speed tests at
just under 600mbytes/second, on the pi.

Generally, I've found startech stuff to be as advertised, it just works.



Okay.


David

Re: solid state storage device with USB type-A plug for use as OS drive (was Re: Installation "Bullseye")

[David Christensen]

On 2/10/22 01:37, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Wed, Feb 09, 2022 at 06:50:49PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:



I am looking for a small (~16 GB), low power, high-endurance, solid-state
storage device with a USB 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A plug, powered by a USB
1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A receptacle, which is designed to be used as a system
drive.  I would use it to install and run commercial and FOSS OS's (Windows,
macOS, Debian and FreeBSD) on SBC's, laptops, tablets, desktops,
workstations, servers, etc..




Corsair do a ruggedised USB stick - starts at 16G or 32G if you can find them
  - I think which is USB 3.1
and blazingly fast but expensive. I got the Corsair 128 GB Voyager GTX



The Corsair Flash Voyager® GTX USB 3.1 128GB Premium Flash Drive looks 
like it has SSD performance.  But, I do not see any endurance 
specifications.




What's high-endurance in your terms?



I am unable to find manufacturer specifications to quantify what "high 
endurance" means, but I do own a 128 GB SanDisk High Endurance microSD 
card and that is where I heard the phrase:


https://www.westerndigital.com/products/memory-cards/sandisk-high-endurance-uhs-i-microsd#SDSQQNR-032G-GN6IA


So, another option is to use this SD card with machines that have an 
SDXC port, or to use this SD card with a USB adapter for machines that 
do not.




As an alternative, StarTech makes two USB to sata adapter/ cables.  I need
to do more search to see if my SSD's are compatible:

https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/usb3s2sat3cb

https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/usb312sat3cb



I think I've got one of these which is running to an old SSD and is alos fine.



Okay.


David

Re: solid state storage device with USB type-A plug for use as OS drive (was Re: Installation "Bullseye")

[Anssi Saari]

David Christensen  writes:

> I am looking for a small (~16 GB), low power, high-endurance,
> solid-state storage device with a USB 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A plug,
> powered by a USB 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A receptacle, which is designed
> to be used as a system drive.  I would use it to install and run
> commercial and FOSS OS's (Windows, macOS, Debian and FreeBSD) on
> SBC's, laptops, tablets, desktops, workstations, servers, etc..

I don't know if it's relevant to your case but when I wanted a USB SSD a
few years ago, I just bought a case from eBay I think. Brand was "JEYI"
and they advertized the control chip used and TRIM support right in the
subject.

The case is a little wider than a usual USB memory sticks and takes
standard m.2 SSDs. Only the smaller physical sizes though, I think 2240
and 2232 which aren't that common any more. But back then Sandisk 2240
120 GB SSDs were common and it's still going strong.

These days looks like the 2280 form factor dominates and 120 GB is the
cheapest size. Smaller ones are around, both physical and capacity but
they cost more. Oh and JEYI still makes USB adapter cases for m.2 SSDs.

Re: solid state storage device with USB type-A plug for use as OS drive (was Re: Installation "Bullseye")

[gene heskett]

On Thursday, February 10, 2022 4:37:22 AM EST Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 09, 2022 at 06:50:49PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
> > On 2/9/22 08:02, notoneofmyseeds wrote:
> > > I'd suggest an SSD if you have one. Or, perhaps a recommended USB
> > > stick. Perhaps someone here has suggestions for such stick that
> > > maintains r/w over a while and is fast.
> > 
> > I am looking for a small (~16 GB), low power, high-endurance,
> > solid-state storage device with a USB 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A plug,
> > powered by a USB 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A receptacle, which is
> > designed to be used as a system drive.  I would use it to install
> > and run commercial and FOSS OS's (Windows, macOS, Debian and
> > FreeBSD) on SBC's, laptops, tablets, desktops, workstations,
> > servers, etc..
> 
> Corsair do a ruggedised USB stick - starts at 16G or 32G if you can
> find them - I think which is USB 3.1
> and blazingly fast but expensive. I got the Corsair 128 GB Voyager GTX
> 
> Some queries about copying large >8G files around - speeds vary in
> reviews but it's solid. What's high-endurance in your terms?
> 
> > STFW most USB disk-on-module (DOM) devices are designed for a
> > motherboard with 0.1" 10-pin connector, motherboard space, and
> > motherboard threaded boss (for mounting screw);  e.g. server
> > motherboards only.
> > 
> > 
> > STFW I found Cactus Technologies USB flash drives; but they are
> > design for storage, not OS, and I was unable to find a retailer:
> > 
> > https://www.cactus-tech.com/
> > 
> > 
> > STFW I see the Buffalo SSD-PUT; I am unclear which USB standards it
> > supports (I need USB 2.0 and 3.0):
> > 
> > https://www.buffalotech.com/products/ssd-put-rugged-and-portable-soli
> > d-state-drive-stick
> > 
> > 
> > As an alternative, StarTech makes two USB to sata adapter/ cables.  I
> > need to do more search to see if my SSD's are compatible:
> > 
> > https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/usb3s2sat3cb

I think its this one or maybe a predesessor that I have 2 of plugged into 
my rpi4, used as a kernel and LinuxCNC development system with a total of 
360G of SSD storage. The pi's swap has been moved to them also. They have 
Just Worked now for close to 2 years. Plugged unto the rpi4's usb-3 
ports, the speed limit is the pi, not the drives. Either speed tests at 
just under 600mbytes/second, on the pi.

Generally, I've found startech stuff to be as advertised, it just works.

> > https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/usb312sat3cb
> 
> I think I've got one of these which is running to an old SSD and is
> alos fine.
> 
> All best, as ever,
> 
> Andy Cater
> 
> > Comments/ suggestions?
> > 
> > 
> > David
> 
> .


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: solid state storage device with USB type-A plug for use as OS drive (was Re: Installation "Bullseye")

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Wed, Feb 09, 2022 at 06:50:49PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
> On 2/9/22 08:02, notoneofmyseeds wrote:
> > I'd suggest an SSD if you have one. Or, perhaps a recommended USB stick.
> > Perhaps someone here has suggestions for such stick that maintains r/w
> > over a while and is fast.
> 
> I am looking for a small (~16 GB), low power, high-endurance, solid-state
> storage device with a USB 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A plug, powered by a USB
> 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0+ type-A receptacle, which is designed to be used as a system
> drive.  I would use it to install and run commercial and FOSS OS's (Windows,
> macOS, Debian and FreeBSD) on SBC's, laptops, tablets, desktops,
> workstations, servers, etc..
> 
> 

Corsair do a ruggedised USB stick - starts at 16G or 32G if you can find them
 - I think which is USB 3.1
and blazingly fast but expensive. I got the Corsair 128 GB Voyager GTX

Some queries about copying large >8G files around - speeds vary in reviews
but it's solid. What's high-endurance in your terms?

> STFW most USB disk-on-module (DOM) devices are designed for a motherboard
> with 0.1" 10-pin connector, motherboard space, and motherboard threaded boss
> (for mounting screw);  e.g. server motherboards only.
> 
> 
> STFW I found Cactus Technologies USB flash drives; but they are design for
> storage, not OS, and I was unable to find a retailer:
> 
> https://www.cactus-tech.com/
> 
> 
> STFW I see the Buffalo SSD-PUT; I am unclear which USB standards it supports
> (I need USB 2.0 and 3.0):
> 
> https://www.buffalotech.com/products/ssd-put-rugged-and-portable-solid-state-drive-stick
> 
> 
> As an alternative, StarTech makes two USB to sata adapter/ cables.  I need
> to do more search to see if my SSD's are compatible:
> 
> https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/usb3s2sat3cb
> 
> https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/usb312sat3cb
> 

I think I've got one of these which is running to an old SSD and is alos fine.

All best, as ever,

Andy Cater
> 
> Comments/ suggestions?
> 
> 
> David
>