Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Work Items Management
Hi all, ... On 11.10.30 22:54, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote: Hi Nik, Christoph, *, I have started now such a list of collection [1]. Work on it, put things to the list, delete it. Mention also on our Whiteboards [2]. [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/work_items_collection [2] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards Thanks for all the feedback so far. While I said I would act on this today, with Bernhard's announcement, it doesn't feel right to jump straight in and carry out "business as usual" for me. I have everything I need to proceed, but I'm just going to leave this for a week, as a sign of respect. My "2 minutes of silence", if you will. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] I'm going to leave the community - thanks to all of you!
Hi Bernhard, ... On 11.10.29 10:24, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi all, I'm very sorry that I have to announce this: I can't spend my time on LibreOffice any more. During the last weeks (to be honest: even the last months) I only read this list and some of the others I'm subscribed to, but my replies became very rare. I tried for a very long time to avoid compromising my private life with my LibreOffice (and previously OpenOffice.org) activities. But looking on my life I have to confess, that this didn't really work out. From now on I will try to spend more time with the most important people in my real life: my children and my friends. Even if I like being here very much, real life is more important - and if you understand that you have to spend your time wisely, your decision is clear... I'm not the one to reduce my activities until a certain amount of work: It turned out in the past that I had been as active as before (or even more) after a few week's time. So I have to stop all my LibreOffice activities and hope that you keep up the great work you already do. It has been very much fun to be a part of this community. I learned quite a lot during the 6 or 7 years of in the OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice community (I improved not only my English), but the most important part of the work here is to meet not only co-workers, but friends. I'm leaving very reluctantly, but as the day has less than 30 hours to work, I know that my decision is the right one. Thank you that I could be part of such a great community - and a design team that starts to become more and more important inside this community. Best regards Bernhard We are grateful for having been able to borrow as much of your time as we did. And /in/ that time you achieved s much and inspired the rest of us to try and keep up. You have a lot to be proud of. For the outside world, your contributions changed the way millions see LibreOffice (and OpenOffice.org before that). Within this list, you've single-handedly redefined the concept of "dedication" for many of us. You've been a leader who led by inspiring and by doing the hard work when no one else could, or would. The best kind of leader. Your's is a "retirement" well earned! The rest of us can only hope we accomplish as much as you did, as well as you did it. Some of us you can consider "friends", the rest of us you can consider "fans". We'll miss you man. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: Work Items Management
that soon also, but this takes priority for me. No point making it easy to join the team when it isn't clear what you need to work on right? So, where do we currently work on tasks and have some task management? * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design#Work_Items * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards (already having a simple Recent Topics / Past Topics section) * Bugzilla (usually smaller tasks) * libreoffice-ux-advise (usually smaller tasks, if bigger, then moved to a Whiteboard) Almost everything should remain functioning like it does now, but detailed info should move to Whiteboards and the Work items page should serve as a short linked index to all our tasks. Something to look over quickly. Back to your proposal - would it help to change the objective of the tasks list? My take ... a rough proposal: * Larger task will (should) automatically require a Whiteboard page. The whiteboards overview page might benefit from your proposed structure. * Smaller tasks that new contributors (with varying skills) might take, should go to a separate section like EasyTasks / StarterTasks. A similar structure to the task list (which still keeps the fun) is required here. * All other tasks that are less urgent, nobody takes care of quickly should go to an "Open Tasks" list. Just to not forget them ... * Bugzilla and libreoffice-ux-advise should stay as they are. What do you think? Larger tasks: listed on Work-items page with a link to its Whiteboard page. Smaller tasks: Leave them on this mailing list, we should try to keep the work-items focused. I do not want the Work-items page tables to be about "types/categories" of tasks, I want them to be about the "stage/lifecycle" of that task. Just active, suspended or done. That's all that matters if we are trying to keep it simple. Color coding means that somebody has to decide on the priority ... Yep. You! Or Bernhard. Generally a member can do this and you can review the prioritisation. We shouldnt' get tripped up over this. We elected you both because we trust you and this is an example. When you get the chance review the priorities, otherwise they will be worked out on-list with little discussion hopefully. Less talk, more "DO". =) * We need to have deadlines, Yep, if we agree that these should guide but hurt (in terms of deadlines). I think they should hurt us if we don't meet them. This is about establishing Design as a team that delivers and can be counted on. Even if nobody else tracks this, we should. My proposal: every day that a project/task runs over schedule should be counted and displayed on our Design wiki "home" page. A bad (high) number will hopefully urge us to get it done to salvage our worth as a part of this community. A good (low) number can be a source of pride amongst ourselves that we deliver when people need us. It will be our performance indicator. * We need to have a client and a representative who speaks on their behalf. Yep. At least someone will send the request ... However, I think another helpful thing would be to provide information that tells what we need if someone requests a certain item (I've collected some ideas for visual design elements, but did not send them to the list / wiki yet ... maybe the next task). agreed, the requirements should be specific and in the examples, I've demonstrated that every requirement should be a deliverable and measurable item. Something identifiable as a satisfactory outcome or not. * We need to be organised and update this ourselves True, but this will need help by everybody ... which I currently miss a lot. We have many people on this list, but only veeery few who are active (whatever small or larger task it may be). Any volunteers to help with this? we have 150 suibscribers. Someone might be interested in helping whip us into shape? and most drastically; * *We should LIMIT the number of active tasks to just 3-4.* Mmh, I really like that for my own stuff ... when looking back at the last weeks, my work might have appeared a bit unfocused. (Which it wasn't, of course *g*). However, can we really limit the number of tasks for if people are free to chose where to spend effort? If we can agree that "active tasks" means something like "Tasks in Focus", then I'm fine. We need to start taking this seriously. We can only get so much done in the time we have. That means to need to start prioritising HARSHLY! We need to be realistic and we need to push back if we can't do it. Otherwise we will let everything be added as a task and nothing finished. It works in COUNTLESS methodologies. What do you think? Well, maybe more input that you've expected ... you should surely read
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Conference 2011, Personal Summary
Hi Andreas, Klaus, All, Just wanted to clear something up, so quick response... On 11.10.25 04:56, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote: Hi Andreas, Am 24.10.2011 19:19, schrieb Andreas Mantke: Hi Nik, Am Montag, 24. Oktober 2011, 16:41:06 schrieb Nik: ---8< snip --- I've created a quick copy on my own wiki user-page to run past you before making any changes to the actual task-list. Please check this link; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Nik#Proposed_rearrange_of_Design_Wo rk_items does that mean that nobody will work on the Design / UX of the Extensions-/Templates- Website anymore? I don't think that it is meant so by Nik. For me it is only a proposal with some examples. The lists must be filled in. IMHO the idea behind the proposal is to show clearlier where we stand and where to take the most power. Thanks for the rescue Klaus-jürgen! =) Andreas I certainly didn't mean that, I'm sorry for the miscommunication. I only meant to demonstrate what I meant through examples, like Klaus-jürgen mentioned. That list is by no means indicative of what I consider are active task on the Design list! Some of them, I just plain made up. I should have been more imaginative =( And if you mean that my undertaking this task means I am abandoning the Extensions task, not at all. I still intend to help with that task as much as I can in this little gap of time I've been granted. But I'd like to do as much "damage" as I can across as many different Design issues as I can, /while/ I can. Hope that clears things up? And I share your concern. Extensions, and the ease of acquiring them, is an essential part of the LibO user experience. I wouldn't have chipped in a Design if I didn't think so, right? =) -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Conference 2011, Personal Summary
Hi all, I've noticed mention in a couple of places here of the need for us to make it clearer how we operate. While I don't have a complete solution, there is an aspect that affects me (and I imagine, quite a few others) that I'd like to propose a simple solution to; Our "tasks/work items" page. It is too long, unkept and badly-sectioned to be useful as a tool for knowing what needs to be done. While I realise it isn't going to become an amazing productivity tool overnight, there are some small improvements that we could make to make it more useful. I've created a quick copy on my own wiki user-page to run past you before making any changes to the actual task-list. Please check this link; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Nik#Proposed_rearrange_of_Design_Work_items I would propose we; * Separate out items that are "ACTIVE", "ON-HOLD" and "COMPLETED" into three separate tables so that people interested in doing things only have to check the top table. * Keep the items in the tables short so that our members can more easily see what needs attention right now and what is going on that they would be interested in. Colour coding will help. More detailed information should just be linked to. * We need to have deadlines, whether we meet them or not (because we are all volunteers). Otherwise everything will end up as an incomplete task that lasts forever. * We need to have a client and a representative who speaks on their behalf. That will give us a point of reference rather than having endless internal communication. * We need to be organised and update this ourselves and move finished jobs out, or move jobs that are on-hold into that table. They shouldn't just stay in the active table. and most drastically; * *We should LIMIT the number of active tasks to just 3-4.* Anything else should not be added until something can be taken off and moved to the completed table. With fewer tasks, we can focus more, we can track them better, we can push them out faster, we can unify our fragmented efforts and we can be held accountable when we don't get things done, because it will show. What do you think? And just to prove I mean business, I'll happily listen to input on this matter until the 31st of October. On the 1st of November, whether we are ready or not, we will make changes to improve the work items page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Work_Items -Nik On 11.10.23 09:26, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi everyone, I noticed some discussions that might relate to discussions we've had at the LibreOffice Conference last week. So, if you want to spend some minutes, then here is my personal summary: http://luxate.blogspot.com/2011/10/libreoffice-conference-2011-personal.html If anything is missing or unclear ... please ask :-) Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout
Huloo again TEAM! Great, constructive feedback all around people! ; - Astron: thank you millions for your support and for being open to changes to your modified logo. Also, well-spotted with the footer segmented-green-border. It was also the one element that I was most displeased with before submitting, but it was 2:00am and I grew tired+lazy and submitted anyway. Self-imposed deadlines: a Designer's best friend and worst enemy (other than clients! ... ha, I joke) I think what you suggest would indeed work better. - Andrew: thanks for the thumbs-up. Gradients are a UI's saviour y'know. - Christoph: Boss, I couldn't agree more, action-items are very much required. And IMAGES! which is our greatest downfall so far. But as I mentioned, I assumed that content-discussions may have already taken place and I wasn't about to radically contradict the outcomes. While I have opinions of what could be on that site, I will leave the content-discussion/decisions to people more capable such as yourself and our Usability-brethren (but I will add some suggestions below rather than being cryptic). Having said that, I don't think we need to get the contents perfect before the Design can be fixed. I personally would love to see some more iterative implementation because I have come to realise that sometimes we (the Design Team) aim for perfection and action never occurs as a result of our hesitation. But the Extensions site is LIVE. Any immediate improvement that can be implemented NOW, should not be suspended because of a perfect improvement that might happen LATER. But... (and it gives me more pride than you can imagine to say this, now that we have formalised leadership that we have been craving for EVER) it IS your call =) - Andreas: attention is a funny thing in Graphic Design, when trying to balance "size" with "empty-space" you have to remember that there is an inverse-bell-curve, where too much or too little empty space /attracts/ attention and a "balanced" compromise makes people feel comfortable, but uninterested. For the logo I think we should go with this "boring" balance because like you say, the logo isn't the major player on that page, the Navigation is. But interesting to note in that principle, is that something SMALL, when surrounded by luxuriant empty space, catches attention. While I've never formalised that in any discussion on-list so far, I think that is the method LibO should employ in its branding language. It should become our mantra. Empty space (not necessarily /white/, but /negative/) is our friend. ... Personally, if you don't mind my opinion, I would actually change the landing page quite a bit. An explanation IS essential, but if I were to land on an exentsions site, the MOST Important thing I'd like to see is a big fat search box or categorised index. Maybe some of the best-rated / most-popular / newest-addition extensions. I would like to see a prominent "add an extension" and information/interview with Extension developers. And on a personal note, all of this constant emphasis on donation is really starting to change my impression of LibO. A LOT! We went from a philosophy-driven endeavour which emphasised its focus on freedom (both speech AND expense) which rarely requested money to a seemingly money-hungry enterprise that wants more donations - more donations - MORE DONATIONS! I know donations are our lifeblood, so don't get me wrong, but I think we should be doing this in a much more elegant way than banner-ads / home-page-hugging mentions of donations and never-ending mentions of money. Firefox does quite well by emphasising it's "community of volunteers" which makes you feel like supporting them, rather than all-consuming "donate NOW" instructions. Again, just my humble, and always controversial, opinions and nothing more. Yet another long Email. I'll try and do more /Designing/ and less /writing/ with my remaining time. And sorry for top-posting. -Nik On 11.10.23 10:35, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi all, it is already 1:30 am, so wildly jumping into the discussion ... :-) Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 00:02 +0200 schrieb Astron: Hi everybody, as the person who created the original version of sharp-triangled Extensions& Templates logo (ie [1]): I absolutely second Nik's request. If you need more of an eyecatcher, just make the entire image (a little) larger. The current logo looks butchered badly (and it is, given that I and later you modified Nik's good original logo). I also second Nik's request for several reasons. Furthermore, I'd like to add that the current logo needs an enormous amount of space that eats away space for the actual content of the page. I would even suggest to make the pages close to the default LibreOffice site, so that u
Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout
Hi Andreas, all, as promised, a mockup; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:PROP_ExtensionsSite_111022NS.jpg I've kept it realistic and in-line with the current site format/contents so that it would be easier to implement. The search box could always be moved back outside the Navbar if it causes hassles to implement. I envisage that the "only in current section" and other search options (categories) would pop up upon clicking the "plus" alongside the search field. Similarly, the full list of languages be made visible upon clicking the down-arrow next to the current language. I have more adventurous ideas, but they can wait. That gets the ball rolling. Let me know what you think. -Nik On 11.10.22 01:12, Nik wrote: Hi Andreas, On 11.10.08 05:24, Andreas Mantke wrote: Hi all, the new extensions-site is in a test-mode since some weeks now. We have already worked on a header graphic for the site. This is online now. But maybe there are some ideas for improvements of the sites layout. I hope to get some proposals / mockups from the "design-experts" here ;-) You can find the site here at the moment: http://extensions-test.libreoffice.org Regards, Andreas I'd be happy to chip in a mock-up soon, but could you do me one favour in advance; (I'm sorry to sound like a stubborn and difficult Designer, even though I am, but ...) could you reinstate the original extensions logo? ...this one: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/7/7e/ExtensionsLogo_110712NS.png I realise you modified the placement, size (and indeed the very shape) of the triangles to attract /attention/, and you've succeeded: but for some wrong reasons... The triangles are attracting "bad" attention because they are mis-aligned with the text (vertically). This is the same as when you see one street-pole bent and the others are intact. It isn't desirable. And the ability to discern the "X" created by the negative space between the triangles is lost when you remove the "X" from the context in which it would usually occur (i.e. at the same hieght as the neighbouring letters). Believe me, the colour-contrast will be sufficent in attracting attention, the size-difference right now is unnerving. And the inconsistencies in shape look unprofessional. Also, the sharp corners of the new triangles conflict with the soft corners of the document symbol nearby. And the radial gradient now employed doesn't suggest modularity like the broken conical gradient did. I'm being nit-picky. I'm sorry. I'll be quiet now. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] New web banners. Feedback?
Hi Aleksandar, all, On 11.09.30 04:28, Aleksandar wrote: Hi All, I want to thank you all for your support. I read all your emails and this was great experience so far. Tobias, I understand your point but please note one thing, my time is (and will probably be this year) very limited so I don't have time to create graphic in gimp/inkscape from start. I used gimp before and would like to use it again and I know about inkscape, it's always great to learn something new,new tool,new language etc. and it's not problem to work with these tools but as I said I am currently very busy and time doesn't allow me to do all that things. My idea was to inspire people to create better graphic, to motivate them. Aleksandar, don't apologise. You are a Designer, one of the best we now have. What you use is YOUR choice alone, you should feel comfortable with it, you should feel happy when you make things using it. What it IS doesn't matter. I probably should have left this thread alone, but it's disappointing to know that some of our members have this mindset. What we /create/ (graphics, in this case) is our /contribution/ to the project. NOT the software we create them with. I've created EVERYTHING I'VE CONTRIBUTED in Adobe PhotoShop, Illustrator and InDesign. It is what I use at work every day. It is what I learnt to Design in. It is as much a reason why I Design the way I do as my style or technique. If you are considering purging this project of anything not-open-source then start with everyone using a Windows or Mac. Anyone using Gmail to read this mailing list. Anyone who has submitted a PDF to our wiki. Anyone who did so using Safari or Internet Explorer. Anyone who used Picasa or dropbox to host their mock-ups. I love PhotoShop more than ANY OTHER SOFTWARE on the planet. If you asked any of my Design colleagues, they'd say the same. If you told them they could not join LibreOffice until they started using Inkscape, they would create stunning templates for Microsoft Office in PhotoShop instead. And they are good people. If you forced me to choose between them, it would be an easy choice. Like a musician asked to part with his favourite guitar to play in an exclusionist band. Have you ever considered that maybe some of the Developers are using proprietary IDE's? If that is how they work best, who are we to judge them? They still submit the 100% pure open code that makes the software we support. Get a grip people! Do you judge a presenter on the wisdom of his words? or the brand of his microphone? -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout
Hi Andreas, On 11.10.08 05:24, Andreas Mantke wrote: Hi all, the new extensions-site is in a test-mode since some weeks now. We have already worked on a header graphic for the site. This is online now. But maybe there are some ideas for improvements of the sites layout. I hope to get some proposals / mockups from the "design-experts" here ;-) You can find the site here at the moment: http://extensions-test.libreoffice.org Regards, Andreas I'd be happy to chip in a mock-up soon, but could you do me one favour in advance; (I'm sorry to sound like a stubborn and difficult Designer, even though I am, but ...) could you reinstate the original extensions logo? ...this one: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/7/7e/ExtensionsLogo_110712NS.png I realise you modified the placement, size (and indeed the very shape) of the triangles to attract /attention/, and you've succeeded: but for some wrong reasons... The triangles are attracting "bad" attention because they are mis-aligned with the text (vertically). This is the same as when you see one street-pole bent and the others are intact. It isn't desirable. And the ability to discern the "X" created by the negative space between the triangles is lost when you remove the "X" from the context in which it would usually occur (i.e. at the same hieght as the neighbouring letters). Believe me, the colour-contrast will be sufficent in attracting attention, the size-difference right now is unnerving. And the inconsistencies in shape look unprofessional. Also, the sharp corners of the new triangles conflict with the soft corners of the document symbol nearby. And the radial gradient now employed doesn't suggest modularity like the broken conical gradient did. I'm being nit-picky. I'm sorry. I'll be quiet now. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Design Team Tasks (was: Christoph Noack is Design Team Lead!)
Hullo all! I've mustered up the nerve (and time) to show my face again =) My VERY sincere apologies to anyone who was waiting on me for anything. anywho ... On 11.09.29 11:55, Ivan M. wrote: ---8< snip --- I know it's redundant, but I still want to say, "Congratulations, Christoph!', since I didn't say it before :) I regret TERRIBLY that I decided to take a "sabbatical" at the time such an important milestone occurred! For what it is worth and so it may be recorded in the annals of LibreOffice history:+>1 Congrats Christoph! it was a long time coming =) I'm sure we'd all like to hear your thoughts too, but I'll kick off the discussion. Maybe it would help if we try to qualify our suggestions with some additional information (if applicable), rather than just a sentence or two, so I'll give it a shot here... WHAT: Improve the Download Page on our website WHERE: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/ WHY: It's not very usable for less experienced users, and it could look a lot better too HOW: Decide on a new design and implement it in HTML/CSS/JS WHO: Anyone interested, and myself +Nik I still see this as a critical area for improvement and I'm in if you'll have me! WHEN: As soon as possible... Regards, Ivan. I've missed quite a bit while I was gone (some of it, not too pleasant sadly), but I've ploughed through the 350+ Emails in my backlog and I wanna get back to business while I have this (again) short break in my research. Is this project still underway Ivan/Christoph? -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] A very serious PLEA
Hi Christoph, Loic, all. On 11.09.16 07:40, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Lic, hi all! When commenting on these proposals, please bear in mind that a) it's a contest and only one designer will be paid, b) the deadline of the contest is in 48 hours, c) the prize is USD$495 (thanks to Free Software Foundation France for funding this work). Very cool - I wasn't aware that FSF is so kind to fund this :-) As an additional note - do we get the "source code" to work on further refinements / changes after the challenge is over? I'm writing this in relation to the use of "99Designs" for a LibreOffice Design solution. This isn't a criticism, this isn't meant to delay or obfuscate any future development tasks. It REALLY isn't. It is, in complete sincerity, a PLEA to all developers (whom I haven't CC'ed intentionally, because I know none) and anyone here to NOT endorse the use of services like 99Designs. And this is certainly not meant to offend anyone who takes part in 99 Designs (like Aleksander, whose work I adore and cannot commend enough). 99Designs and other services like it are known in the Design industry as "spec-work" facilitators. They belittle what we do. This issue has been raised before on this mailing list. The following website is dedicated to eliminating services like 99Designs; http://www.no-spec.com/ These services propogate low-pay, unreasonable conflict and lower both standards of quality and the adoption of conventions of iterative Design. They take work away from professionals who demonstrate an understanding of the canons of Graphic/Publication/Web/User Interface Design and they alienate clients from developing an understanding of the way creative process develops and is justified. But that's not why I'm asking. In the case below, the FSF gave close to US$500 to fund this. The $500 dollars was used, spent. One Designer was rewarded. One solution was achieved. An entire community of volunteers, circumvented. I realise you appealed to the list, and no-one responded. It sounds self-gratifying of me, then, to suggest that you should have tried again, and again, and again. But after a few tries to an unpaid community, you procured funds, you outsourced the work, and as far as I can see, no one on this list knew about it until it was done. That money should have come to the Design team. That sounds rude, I'm sure, but I consider it rude that money that could have gone into Design's NON-EXISTENT budget was used to solve ONE Design problem amongst the many that exist. If you had said to this list; "We will give the Design TEAM US$500 if any one member comes up with a satisfactory solution to this problem" I guarantee you, we together, would work to ensure that the team benefitted. The money could have remained in LibO. We could have used that money to fund THINGS WE NEED; - Commission a photographer for high-quality LibO-specific RF-stock photography that we DESPERATELY need - Acquire group license to online mock-up tools like Balsamiq - Pay participants to take part in an online survey to refine our Design requirements - Commission a typographer to create a Libre-Office font - Pay for Bernhard/Christoph to attend a conference representing us - Pay for promotional material Designed by this community The list goes on. Every option above would have funded a long-lasting, far-reaching pervasive solution. But at the end of the day... Why am I doing this? Why do I volunteer my time for free, and my work iteratively, if you're going to PAY people to do what I do when I don't do it in time? What is the POINT of an open-source community of volunteers if you've found a "cost-effective" way of building "free software"? ...Why does Design bother working with Development over a UI reDesign we want SO BADLY when we should just raise some funds and pay an overseas Dev-company to build a fork of LibO the way we want? Why do we try again, and again, and again. I guess it's respect. -Nik The difference between an Open-source Volunteer and a competition-participant is ideology, not pay. *Please support the Design team over external providers, otherwise you make our efforts here redundant. * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Packaging idea for LibreOffice software
Hi Marc, On 7/12/2011 5:20 PM, Marc Paré wrote: Hi Nik, Neat design and simple. I know this may be asking much, but is there a "letter" size version for we "others" who have not yet joined the rest of the A4/A3 sizing? Cheers, Marc Oh yeah, I'm sorry about that, leave it with me. It should be easier to change the template for "letter" size and give you a PDF you can print off to test. But as mentioned in another thread, SVG-export problems will delay the provision of an editable template for a while. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Packaging idea for LibreOffice software
Hi again, So, after nearly half a day of fiddling with this I've uploaded a new SVG which should be fine here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/8/8e/ExtensionsLogo_Cleaned_110712NS.svg It seems the problem I'm having with SVGs originates from the SVG LibO logos on our branding page. While that file passes W3C validation, Illustrator seems not to like exporting any work created using the logos back to SVG. I'm sure it's the logos because I stripped everything else out of several test documents and only the logo alone returned an error. So for now, I've included raster versions of the LibO logo in the file above, feel free to replace with vector versions if you tinker with it. While this took long enough to fix on this very simple file (there were remnants of corrupt items in odd places), cleaning the Paper-case files is not going to be as straightforward, because the shapes are embedded everywhere across so many layers and in so many grouped objects. Bit of a nightmare really. And while I know this probably only affects me (probably one of the few people not using Inkscape), I can't use the logo in any further files without corrupting them if they need to be provided in SVG. Would I be able to get an EPS copy of the logos off someone, so that I can try translating them into Illustrator-friendly files? Sorry for the bother, I'd rather be doing more productive stuff, but the logo is one of those mandatory items and I can't keep giving people PNGs when we need vectors. Looks like the Paper-case will have to wait for a while now =( I can't see me having any time in the near future to overhaul them. Very sorry! -Nik On 7/12/2011 6:52 PM, Nik wrote: Hi all, yeah epic fail on my part. I use Illustrator (let's not get bogged down in proprietary-software-jazz) and it seems to be having problems galore with SVG-ing, it may also be my stupid mac. I'll try some work-arounds and get back to you soon, it's good to hear that people want to tinker with it though! ... On 7/12/2011 5:40 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote: Hi Nik, Am 11.07.2011 23:12, schrieb Nik: Hi Boss! =) I found something that I thought I could do quickly so I did that first; I've got a proposal for the Extensions logo, which I agree, shouldn't be a stand-alone logo, but a sub-brand of the LibO primary brand; I've uploaded a PNG to preview here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/7/7e/ExtensionsLogo_110712NS.png If we do so we have two other logos to think about: Mail Forwarding Service http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibO-MFS.png Mail Attachment Service http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibO-Mas.png On this way: shouldn't we make some guidelines for such logos? I agree with you Klaus, some sort of guideline probably is required. I think all the teams/communities etc have a valid right to request their own LibO logo, so long as it doesn't reduce or degrade the Main logo. I think it would actually be really good for Libo, because enthusiastic teams would actually use their team-logos and really get the word out! But that isn't my call, I think Bernhard and Christoph might need to take this up with the SC to see if it's a floatable idea. In the mean time, I have an idea/configuration (based on the conference logo and this Extensions logo) on how we could create a strong sub-brand culture (including countries) if anyone is keen. I've kinda hoped we would get a Design-team subBrand logo for ages =) and an SVG so you can tinker here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:ExtensionsLogo_Cleaned_110712NS.svg Doesn't work. Nominally 0 × 0 pixels It continues the consistency of the Conference logo by substituting characters for triangles. I think I prefer 1B because the fading-in effect suggest "extending/expanding" something more? Let me know what you think... -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Packaging idea for LibreOffice software
Hi all, yeah epic fail on my part. I use Illustrator (let's not get bogged down in proprietary-software-jazz) and it seems to be having problems galore with SVG-ing, it may also be my stupid mac. I'll try some work-arounds and get back to you soon, it's good to hear that people want to tinker with it though! ... On 7/12/2011 5:40 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote: Hi Nik, Am 11.07.2011 23:12, schrieb Nik: Hi Boss! =) I found something that I thought I could do quickly so I did that first; I've got a proposal for the Extensions logo, which I agree, shouldn't be a stand-alone logo, but a sub-brand of the LibO primary brand; I've uploaded a PNG to preview here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/7/7e/ExtensionsLogo_110712NS.png If we do so we have two other logos to think about: Mail Forwarding Service http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibO-MFS.png Mail Attachment Service http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibO-Mas.png On this way: shouldn't we make some guidelines for such logos? I agree with you Klaus, some sort of guideline probably is required. I think all the teams/communities etc have a valid right to request their own LibO logo, so long as it doesn't reduce or degrade the Main logo. I think it would actually be really good for Libo, because enthusiastic teams would actually use their team-logos and really get the word out! But that isn't my call, I think Bernhard and Christoph might need to take this up with the SC to see if it's a floatable idea. In the mean time, I have an idea/configuration (based on the conference logo and this Extensions logo) on how we could create a strong sub-brand culture (including countries) if anyone is keen. I've kinda hoped we would get a Design-team subBrand logo for ages =) and an SVG so you can tinker here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:ExtensionsLogo_Cleaned_110712NS.svg Doesn't work. Nominally 0 × 0 pixels It continues the consistency of the Conference logo by substituting characters for triangles. I think I prefer 1B because the fading-in effect suggest "extending/expanding" something more? Let me know what you think... -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Packaging idea for LibreOffice software
Hi Boss! =) I found something that I thought I could do quickly so I did that first; I've got a proposal for the Extensions logo, which I agree, shouldn't be a stand-alone logo, but a sub-brand of the LibO primary brand; I've uploaded a PNG to preview here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/7/7e/ExtensionsLogo_110712NS.png and an SVG so you can tinker here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:ExtensionsLogo_Cleaned_110712NS.svg It continues the consistency of the Conference logo by substituting characters for triangles. I think I prefer 1B because the fading-in effect suggest "extending/expanding" something more? Let me know what you think... On 7/10/2011 8:31 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Nik, all, ---snip 8<--- Nik schrieb: Bernhard, Christoph, I'm really off-tempo here, if there is anything I should work on immediately (while I have this break) or anything I left unfinished please let me know. It would be great if you could contribute to the new download page Christoph prepared: http://go.mail-archive.com/MMFitVgxxIb8J1es2D87zpuWImg= The discussion takes place on the website list, but no action seems to be taken in the meantime. ooh toughy, I'd like to help, but I can't register onto the Website mailing list, it is too time consuming to sort through and very little relevant topics for me. If there is a list of graphics needed to be made, I'd be happy to just make them if you can point me to a link of an archived discussion? Otherwise, I'd prefer to focus on the Design list so that I can "do the most damage before I leave again". I started a new wiki page for UI element proposals, trying to integrate different mockups by looking and discussion the single elements: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/UI_Elements Now this IS something I'd be keen on getting involved in, but realistically, all I can offer are mock-ups about UI ideas I have for the future of LibO. But as some people have already said, maybe what we need is not more Mock-ups, but more direction and clearer constraints. I've been wading through the UI discussions and watching us do circles around each other. Every time the discussions seems to head in a productive direction, someone chips in with an immature "M$" comment or ribbon-stab that just makes me want to close my inbox. I like Bjorn's efforts of getting User-data collected from which to make UI decisions so that we don't get stuck in the petty, "I like this but you like that" discussions that seem to dominate these threads. What is your take on this? would I be adding useless fuel to the fire by chipping in a UI mock-up, or would it actually help? Having said that, I do think mock-ups are more useful here than endless discussion. There are some other threads active at the moment, but you'll find your way through the masses of mails... Still getting through them, only 200~ to go =( Best regards and welcome back Bernhard -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Packaging idea for LibreOffice software
Hi Drew! On 7/12/2011 1:38 AM, drew wrote: ---snip 8<--- Is it ready to go, in your opinion, for a generic usage. I suppose I am asking about copy text, trademark statement, etc..and I suppose that is answered with a look at the template.. *smile*. Best wishes, //drew No not really. It's very much a work in progress, while I consider the Design near complete (because I have worked and reworked this thing MANY times, and even enlisted the help of a friend to help solve the A4 sized cut/glue-free issue while taking SEVERAL issues in consideration ((bleed, margin, legibility, process, single-sided printing, b&w, ease of construction, minimal materials, recycling, integrity of Origami work, reliable closing "mechanism", secure containment of disc, configuration to allow 2 discs, space for explanatory text, space to accommodate translation, the tangible reflection of the document symbol, the list goes on and on))). But I've left the content itself VERY raw (lorem-ipsum even) because, legal-matters, translation, marketing and tech-specs are not my strongest points. I will leave it to the pro's to nut all that stuff out. All I know is, and I know this with some certainty, this Design will not work with information-overload. It has to be sparse, not just to be simple, but because I wanted to create something that people might want to have, something that is more "experience" than "utilitarian". So like you say, I'm trying to keep it simple! =) I hope it works! -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Packaging idea for LibreOffice software
Hi all! On 7/11/2011 5:50 AM, Helio S. Ferreira wrote: Hi Nik, cool, very cool. Of course I'll use it :-) Congratulations. Thanks heaps to everyone who gave their approval for this! I'm especially impressed that it got our old friend Ivan to poke his head (and thumbs) up, good to hear from you man!!! I've readied a PDF for people to print, an SVG so people can tinker and a website explaining how to put it together, all here; http://liberated.nikashsingh.org/html/papercase_instructions.html Hope that helps! took all night to make! =O More comments in line... 2011/7/10 Christoph Noack Hi Nik, Ivan! Sorry, another mail that gets added to the hundreds of unread messages ... Welcome back! :-) Am Sonntag, den 10.07.2011, 21:33 +1200 schrieb Ivan M.: [...] This might be more of an idea that sits well with us tree-hugging student-types, but I just thought it might be worth sharing. As much as I identify with the tree-hugging student type (event though I'm no longer a student), I think this will have far broader appeal - it's more cost effective, original, and portable than a box or a case. Simply put, a great idea. Yep, I also think that has a much broader target group :-) For example, on trade shows you might offer the un-folded cases for "take away". If people ask what this is and how to finish it, you may start some relaxed conversation ... the "customer trap" ;-) But before I get lost, let me say that this is absolutely _cl_ ... just a great and clean design. And by the way, your micro-site is a pleasure to look it as well. Thanks chaps! I was HOPING I wasn't the only one who thought it was a nifty idea! =D If you guys think it's worth exploring, I can upload the template so you can print one and fold it for yourself. It really has to be held to be appreciated I think. Yes, please! Yes, please! DONE! =) And it may be the best existing indication of how I imagine our "branding language" could look and feel. Simple, clean, honest, pure and vibrant. Another yes from me :) +1 ;-) @ Ivan: How are you? Everything fine with your post-student time? Indeed! What are you up to these days? Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Packaging idea for LibreOffice software
Hi all, I've been buried under research for the last few months and I've just returned to see that I'm buried under hundreds of Emails to get through. While I'll work through them in the next few days to catch up, there was something I wanted to show you guys before I left, but didn't... It is a packaging idea for people who distribute LibO on CD/DVD. Granted, it's not going to be everyone's idea of "practical" or "professional" but it does demonstrate a valuable link to our values and gives us a chance to really stand out. Why? Because the package is made entirely from paper. A4 paper and A3 paper, folded in on itself, to hide the edges and in a way that makes the packaging both a brochure, and a case. It fits two Discs neatly, can be printed on any printer (bleed is accounted for). It does not require any glueing or cutting (true to the values of Origami, from which it is inspired). If printed on 100% recycled paper (as intended) it would show our commitment to sustainability. More than traditional PVC cases at least. Above all else, it is actually just very nice to hold. Many people I gave it to said it reminded them of old 5.25inch floppy disks from "back in the day". Intrigued?... http://liberated.nikashsingh.org/html/papercase.html This might be more of an idea that sits well with us tree-hugging student-types, but I just thought it might be worth sharing. If you guys think it's worth exploring, I can upload the template so you can print one and fold it for yourself. It really has to be held to be appreciated I think. And it may be the best existing indication of how I imagine our "branding language" could look and feel. Simple, clean, honest, pure and vibrant. -Nik Bernhard, Christoph, I'm really off-tempo here, if there is anything I should work on immediately (while I have this break) or anything I left unfinished please let me know. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship...
Hi Bernhard, all, On 6/7/2011 7:33 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: --- snip 8<--- One point I didn't mention even if it is very present for me: When Christoph has ended his parental leave I'll ask him if we can have a similar voting on his position as lead for User Experience, so I can concentrate on Visual Design (where I feel much more comfortable than in UX ;-)). Thanks again! Bernhard That is a most excellent idea! =) I think a co-lead situation would be ideal because decisions can be discussed/ideas can be bounced between the two of you. And it might even make for some pretty entertaining arguments on-list =D I have updated content about the team-lead decision on these pages; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Kick-Off And I'm considering adding a title to the table on this page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team ... and bumping you to the top row so that you are more visible to new members. Just wanted to get your opinion on that first. Also, to all our members in general... ... the Design-team page above doesn't actually reflect the huge number of skilled contributors we have on this list. Please don't be shy to add your name to the list and a picture of yourself, it's just nice to put a face to the Emails we receive and know who is saying what. Imagine if Facebook didn't have profile pictures? =) ... 600 million people would have nothing to update every day =D -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hi Bernhard, all,
On 6/4/2011 7:56 PM, Ivan M. wrote:
Hi Bernhard, all,
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Bernhard Dippold
wrote:
[...]
Conclusion --
Work might become easier and less distractive, if someone would focus on
structure, orientation and organization of the design team, while all the
others can focus on designing.
All of you know me as someone with high interest in collaborative work and
concordant decision making. I took care of the members of the OOo Art and
Branding Project without being formally approved and we had some impact
these days.
Here our tasks are much broader and more important, because there is no main
sponsor art team responsible for all the central design decisions.
Thank goodness for that :).
I still feel hesitant to any official title and position, but if you want me
to decide on less important topics, if you feel represented by me talking to
other parts of the community, I'll assume the duty of steering our team.
I remember being under the impression that you were the co-lead of the
Art project; although that was not officially the case, your ability
to always constructively respond to and guide our collaborations made
it feel that way 'unofficially'. Up till now, we have been somewhat
reluctant to decide on things like this ('roles') in the LibO Design
project, but regardless of that, it still feels very much like you
have been an integral part of this project from its very beginning. As
the overwhelmingly positive response shows, you've built up enough
goodwill and respect here to warrant this role, and you certainly have
my support.
Regards,
Ivan.
So, this topic has been open for a while now, and I realise it's a bit
awkward for you to declare this yourself Bernhard, so I felt inclined =)
And now that we have one last vote from one of our most integral (and
most genuinely missed) members, I think we can safely declare Bernhard
our new Design Team Lead.
Here's the tally;
FOR:
---
1. Luca CAPPELLETTI
2. Phil JACKSON
3. Vamsi KODALI
4. Klaus-jürgen WEGHORN
5. Charles-H. SCHULZ
6. Christoph NOACK
7. Scott PLEDGER
8. Tobias BERNARD
9. Nikash SINGH
10. Daniel MERKER
11. Kevin PEIGNOT
12. Mirek MAZEL
13. Ivan MISKOVIC
AGAINST;
---
0. No objections
I'll update the Design team wiki page in the coming days to reflect this
decision so that new members don't explicitly need to be told.
And just a clarification: no one assumes you should have to do any more
work on the lists or elsewhere as a result of this nomination.
Your hours are limited and we understand that fully. There is also no
expectation that you will no longer contribute Designs to remain impartial.
In cases where you do contribute a Design to the activity, a vote will
decide the final Design.
=)
Hooray for Meritocracy!
-Nik
--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: 'adopt-o-meter' for the download page
Hi all, This is probably not going to go down well with those who have submitted proposals for this task already, but I think we should re-evaluate whether some sort of adopt-o-meter will actually /clarify/ things for users. While the proposals so far were good, I think I understood them only because I knew of the request for them to be made. As a /user/, these visual elements are actually quite confusing; If you put a scale in, does that mean I can either have Stability or Features but not both? How am I going to decide what that even means for me if I haven't used the software yet? Why is 3.3.2 mentioned twice on some scales, does that make it superior to 3.4.0? What IS an early adopter? is it someone who downloads in the next few months? is this a new office suite? Does red/orange suggest that this isn't safe software? Does it indicate higher processing/resource demands? I haven't been to the downloads page for a while, after heading there I realised most of the problem was the way it is presented. it is *VERY* user-*un*friendly; - How are beginner-users supposed to know what "x86" means? - Why is there no emphasis on the actual software download link as opposed to the language/help packs? - What is with the COMPLETE AND UTTER LACK OF A *DOWNLOAD BUTTON* on this "downloads" page? By comparison, there is no confusion about what to press when you head to Mozilla[1], Ubuntu[2], Google[3] or even Microsoft's[4] sites; [1] http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/fx/ [2] http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/download [3] http://sketchup.google.com/intl/en/download/index.html [4] http://www7.buyoffice.microsoft.com/asia/product.aspx?sku=10234643&cache=793687343&culture=en-AU I think the cryptic filename-links need to go and the page just needs emphasis placed on the right details. It's useless to just say this, so I've made a mock-up of a preferable state for the downloads page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:PROP_DownloadsPage_110606NS.jpg I don't know how possible that is to implement, but I'm happy to cough up the images of someone is willing. But essentially, I honestly don't think the Adopt-o-meter graphics are helping things right now. I think users just need to see a big fat friendly green download button with all the affordances they've come to expect. I think the adopt-a-meter is essentially marketing-jazz on what is essentially Usability-turf. Just my opinion though. -Nik PS. I realised my mock-up doesn't have download-size listed anywhere, my bad. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: RE : Re: Re: designing a logo for the LibreOffice conference
HI Charles, Marc, all, On 5/28/2011 5:10 PM, Marc Paré wrote: --- snip 8<--- Hi Nik, Charles et al Actually, I went to our conference website[1] and there is a link to La Cantine's blog where there are many photos. Maybe Nik could browse the photos and see if any will suit.[2] I also like the floor plan of on this page[3] We have enough time to check with the La Cantine people to see if the photos on their website are available through a generous licence. There is also the Wikimedia Commons where you can check out more photos.[4] Cheers Marc [1] http://www.LibOCon.com [2] http://lacantine.org/ [3] http://lacantine.org/blog/menu-de-la-cantine-photos-documents [4] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page I readied another wallpaper before I had a chance to read this thread, which I uploaded here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Wallpapers#LibreOffice_Wallpapers It's based on a attribution-licensed photo of the Eiffel tower which can be found here; http://i.images.cdn.fotopedia.com/flickr-3878611189-hd/Paris/Main_sights/List_of_tourist_attractions_in_Paris-hd-3.jpg (hence the attribution text at the bottom of the image). I'm not entirely sold on how the scatter triangles suit this composition, but my girlfriend seems to like it (could be because she's an architect and likes the trusses) =) I'll try using the photos from La Cantine in the coming days. Thanks for the links Marc! -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: RE : Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: designing a logo for the LibreOffice conference
Hi Charles, all, On 5/28/2011 2:11 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Nik, I'll try to see what I can do, but in the mean time I need a validation foe the logo. Deadline is tonight... Best, Charles. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by validation entirely; - If you mean you need the final logo files, they are uploaded in all three variations here: (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Conf-logo.zip) - If you need confirmation of my availability to work on materials for the conference, you have it. - If you mean you need a final outcome on behalf of the Design team regarding the logo ... only our newly-elected fearless leader =) can do that. I can put it to a quick vote and see what happens but I'd really like Bernhard's "go-ahead" before I do that. On my behalf you have all the thumbs-up/relinquished-rights-of-public-license/commitment-to-make-changes/consent that you need =) I should mention, your "tonight" is my "tomorrow" so please don't be disappointed if I don't respond for a few hours as I'm off to bed (it is 2am here in Sydney). I'll check in tomorrow to see if there's anything further I can do. -Nik PS. The zip file mentioned above has all three variations (colour, greyscale, inverted) in EPS, PNG and SVG formats. So it is ready-to-use, so to speak. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: designing a logo for the LibreOffice conference
Hi Charles, Marc, all, On 5/28/2011 1:16 AM, Marc Paré wrote: ---snip 8<--- Sounds more like an opportunity to me. Maybe we should be asking if anyone on the FR mailing list has or could get some shots for us? There must be someone in Paris or even the region who could get us some. Nik could let us know the PNG size he would like. Sorry, I am off to lunch and to a meeting. Will be back later. Cheers Marc Thanks for the support here Marc. Any photo taken on a 5+megapixel camera is large enough for even the biggest monitor resolution. So size and format aren't too much of an issue (I can work with RAW files and even prefer that). More important is the quality of the photo. (Taken on an SLR camera) If it looks nice to begin with, my job is easier. Just like when you give a chef the best cut of wagyu steak and he delivers you to grilled-beef heaven. =) To be more specific: short depth-of-field / interesting subject / rule of thirds / plenty of croppable surrounding area / landmarks / bokeh / light-streaks / long-exposures all make for good High-quality photographs. If you can't procure some easily, leave it to me and I'll jump online and find a CC public-domain image we can use. I'm not without my sources =) -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] designing a logo for the LibreOffice conference
Hi Charles, all, On 5/27/2011 6:26 PM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: ---snip 8<--- I like the wallpaper but it might be misleading as people might think we're hosting the event in the Louvre... Best, Charles. Ah.Yes. I didn't think of that... Nuts. Oh well, give me something more generically-Paris and I'll try again =) -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] designing a logo for the LibreOffice conference
g cool.
That cool thing might age faster than expensive cheese and leave us with
dated looking collateral, and a bad smell. =) ... =(
So while I like the typeface you used, I don't think it fits well with
the non-techy look we're going for.
That isn't a criticism, it's just clarification and I hope it was
helpful. ? =)
I've been meaning to raise the issue of Type for ages but it never looks
like a good time.
But that time is coming soon. Stay tuned. I believe a thread occurred
not too long ago about this that I couldn't join at the time =(
concerning the eiffel tower, i think it is really overused. EVERYTIME
something takes place in paris or even in france, you can be sure there
will be he eiffel tower somewhere.
i would like to go for something new instead, such as the libo triangle
in the word "paris" or another idea.
Yeah I know it's predictable, =)
But I think it's used because it easily communicates the location at a
glance to everyone.
It's iconic. It doesn't matter that we are tired of it, it matters
whether it is clear.
I smile a smile so wide it could open portals whenever I see the Sydney
Opera House on overseas materials, maybe that's just me =)
it could be an idea for future conferences to always use the triangle
instead of one letter.
generally, i would use that triangle more often in libreoffce-designs.
the motif was a good start, but this would be a great occasion to
establish it even more.
another thing i think is important is that we have one general logo for
conferences ("libreoffice conference") and then a "localized" part of
logo ("paris 2011") that changes for every conference.
Totally agree with you amigo!
tobias
I genuinely hope I came off sounding helpful rather than smug above,
because I really want to clarify this so we can all be on the same page.
It wasn't so much of an issue before because all the people that
participated in the early discussions were doing most of the work ('twas
a small team). But many poeple have joined since and we haven't got
anything ready to give everyone new a run-down on what we discussed. I
anticipated that we hadn't done a good enough job articulating what the
LibO "style" was and that it would bite us in the posterior. But that is
largely a result of lack-of-time rather than lack-of-care!
A solution, (pending both approval and demand), is coming!
... If I WASN'T helpful, well, just delete this and pretend I didn't say
squat! =)
-Nik
--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] designing a logo for the LibreOffice conference
Hullo Design! I've whipped up a wallpaper using the Paris Conference logo which I've uploaded here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:ScatterWallpapers_ParisConf.jpg ... and linked to here (Conf logo proposals page); http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice_conference_logo#Proposals ... and here (Marketing Wallpapers page); http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Wallpapers#LibreOffice_Wallpapers Drew was generous enough to shoot me a CC image last night so I've just used that. Admittedly I didn't go hunting around for other images, since Drew did the hard work for me. It features the Louvre and I've incorporated the green-corner and scatter motif in the geometry. Right now it only fits the resolution of my 15inch macbook, but I can resize if I know what it will be used on. I haven't specified a license because I didn't ask Drew about the license particulars of the Louvre image. While this pic is a nice night-time shot, I'd love to get my hands on a good (High quality) day-time shot of Paris if anyone has one buried on their HDD? ... Also, this Design necessitated use of an INVERTED conference logo which wasn't part of the initial zip I uploaded. I've remedied that =) ; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Conf-logo.zip Let me know what y'all think. -Nik On 5/27/2011 1:43 AM, drew wrote: ---snip 8<--- See attached file (CC license is good on this one, but it's a tad small perhaps..) - The Louvre - Anyway, doesn't get more Paris than that for an image, in my mind..but I'm not French..so who knows? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hullo all, On 5/26/2011 10:52 PM, Tobias Bernard wrote: +1 bernhard for president :) tobias You've got my electorate! =) +1 Bernhard for president! -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] designing a logo for the LibreOffice conference
Hi all, On 5/27/2011 2:40 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: After some hesitation with Klaus-Jürgen's "remix" of Nik's proposal, I'd still go with Nik's... best, Charles. I've uploaded a zip file containing EPS/PNG/SVG formats of the logo in colour and greyscale variations; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Conf-logo.zip and I've created a link to the file in the table on Klaus-Jürgen's conference logo page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice_conference_logo I wouldn't mind knocking up some wallpaper images for the conference using this logo if someone has nice pictures of Paris? I've never been, otherwise I'd use my own. I could go hunting for CC images but it'd be better "home-grown". =) -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] voting on Visual Design tag
Hi Bernhard, all, Like you say, UX is a common and widely understood acronym. Personally, I think [GD] for "Graphic(s) Design" encompasses all other activities: Visual identity/Branding/Print collateral/Merchandise/User Interface/Web/etc. But realistically Bernhard, I think maybe we are putting too fine a point on this? This doesn't seriously warrant a vote or comprehensive "polling". This is one of those cases where a "Team lead" could swiftly implement a productive decision without drastic repercussion. I think in this case you should decide a convention and I have faith the rest of us will trust your judgement and abide by the decision you make. Even if it has your initials =) I know Christoph wasn't too keen on the Leadership thing, but you're flying the ship solo now. We can get more done if the rest of us focus on Designing, and you focus on steering. Pick a prefix system and let us know, we'll roll with it =) It is just a prefix system after all. -Nik On 5/23/2011 4:54 AM, Astron wrote: Hi there, how about [Visl] and [UX]? While with "Visl" you have a shortened form, it's still pretty easy to make out just what it is about (namely, visuals). Although on the other hand, it might come across a bit unprofessional. Astron. On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 6:47 PM, ol klaus-jürgen weghorn wrote: Am 21.05.2011 22:47, schrieb Bernhard Dippold: Possible tags would be: [VI] for Visual Identity +1 k-j -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] designing a logo for the LibreOffice conference
Hi Charles, all, On 5/26/2011 1:35 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Hello Nik ---snip 8<--- As usual your logos are simply beautiful and clean looking. I would very much like to go for the justified option. Best and thanks, Charles. Sweet. I'll ready an SVG file and add the conference dates that I forgot to add, tomorrow. Then it's all yours. Bernhard, I'd still like to get your input about using the "conference" type-logo Design for the continuing conference series? The location could be Designed every year and be located where "Paris" currently is in proposal 1B; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/4/40/ConferenceLogo_2011Paris-01.png Whaddaya say? =) (... that's Australian for "what do you think?" =) -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] designing a logo for the LibreOffice conference
Hi Bernhard, Charles, all, On 5/25/2011 10:55 PM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: snip 8< Yes, thanks. So after some heavy thinking, I think that not the skyline so much but the eiffel tower could be used. It may only be suggested , not necessaruly drawn as the actual building. What do you think? best, Charles. Ah, if only you had waited a few more hours Charles I could have surprised you by reading your mind =) So my plans are thwarted, but I thought I might link the preview anyway... I've uploaded a conference logo proposal to Klaus-jürgen's conference-logo page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice_conference_logo#Proposals (Thanks for all the effort btw, K-J !) (or jump straight to the PNG image here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/4/40/ConferenceLogo_2011Paris-01.png) I think Bernhard was right on the money when he suggested a logo for the conference-series itself and a sub-identity for each individual year/location. My proposal for the ongoing conference-series is the word "CONFERENCE" with the letter "O" substituted by a group of scatter triangles who are "convening/meeting" or "getting together" for some purpose, lets say, oh I dunno, a conference? =). I can't take credit for the idea because I pinched it from Bernhard's previous Email to the list... a visionary, that man! =) And I think the location deserves it's own independent logo every year, otherwise we're just being lazy =) I've carried on the substituted-letter idea by replacing the letter "A" in "Paris" with the Eiffel tower. In our greens. There are 2 compositions to choose from (1A and 1B) but I'm leaning towards the latter. Let me know what you think. Hope all is well (I've been very absent lately, my apologies). -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Status of the Design Team Kick-Off, and a Personal Note
Congratulations Christoph! Like Ivan said, even if you don't see this until you get back, congrats on the little-Christoph =) Looks like you now have an even better reason to miss out on sleep at night =) Please pass on our warmest wishes to your wife also... and buy the little man an Eee-PC and get him trained up on LibO, it's never too early! -Nik On 5/8/2011 2:05 AM, Mirek M. wrote: 2011/5/5 Christoph Noack Hi all, sorry (in advance) for sending personal stuff to this list. But I think it might be helpful to know that you can enjoy some weeks without my bothering mails :-))) Here are the details: http://luxate.blogspot.com/2011/05/status-of-design-team-kick-off-and.html Hi Christoph, Congratulations from me too! I wish you the best of luck, and lots of sleep -- the first weeks are always the hardest. Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Scatter brained?
Hi Bernhard, Christoph, Drew, Klaus, all, On 4/17/2011 11:50 PM, ol klaus-jürgen weghorn wrote: Am 17.04.2011 14:54, schrieb drew: On Sun, 2011-04-17 at 13:52 +0200, Bernhard Dippold wrote: [snipped] If Nik can provide the high res, we should integrate the link too... Well, that is fine of course, but in reality what is needed are editable files - the back is mostly text and that needs to be editable. +1 Grüße k-j And here I'm afraid I must disappoint... that image; (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/7/7b/ROUGH_postcard_PRESENTED.jpg) was hacked together from a screen-capture of Drew's work. I never requested the Hi-res files or looked into downloading them, I just hacked and slashed at the low-res after hitting print-screen. I just wanted to provide quick feedback so I slapped it together. That's what I meant by "rough" Design. I'm even ashamed that I overlooked leaving the "fine print" in times-new-roman, which I would *NEVER* do if I wasn't in a rush >=( Sorry guys. The biggest file I've got is no bigger than 600x400pixels. =( -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [us-marketing] North American Community DVD - cover art updated
Hi Drew, I know it's a bit late in the thread, but I just wanted to pop in and say "great work" on the CD/DVD case. Another step towards a better LibO user experience! I had a similar idea brewing that I'll elaborate on in a few weeks, I don't think it will undermine your efforts (I think it might be complimentary... and based on something you said, I think you might like it =). But in any case (no pun intended), thanks for all the hard work you and Klaus-jürgen put in! -Nik On 4/12/2011 8:17 AM, drew wrote: On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 22:27 +0200, Bernhard Dippold wrote: But what I see on the wiki: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Lrge-cover-alt-3.png looks really good I think. Hallo Bernhard, Jeff, et al Thanks (especially if you revert the suite slogan ;-) ) Yeah - dumb, so had to fix that and also fix the shadow under the March icon - then it just seemed, done - but not really finished - so one more little tweak. - added a bright white doc icon to the spine, ala the Brasilia disc -- the white looks really good with the white lettering IMO - sized the slogan down and went back to a medium font, so the line comes back clean along the notch - made the version designator mimic the logo and with that IMO, this really it is, barring any type I might of missed, good to go. On the first sight the white space area around the logo on the back looks quite small at the top, but this doesn't mean to ask for another iteration of the cover. yes, it is 'legal' all around, but when the slogan went from a smaller font to that bigger mistake it makes it look very crowded, I think the last change to the slogan let's the logo breath well again. We don't have official logos with version designation, so I'm fine with your work on this. http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Lrge-cover-alt-3.png is updated with a smaller file again. The full print file and GIMP source is again as: http://lo-portal.us/temp/na-dvd-case-04-11-11.png PS: The icon shadows on the back are different from Paulo's new Tango theme - but this has only been worked on in small scales. Once we define the Branding guidelines for these items, shading will probably be a topic... Not a problem we will ford that stream when we need to. Thanks - I really am not going to touch this now, unless someone asks me to explicitly. //drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif Picture Request
Bernhard, Daniel, all... I'm *SO* sorry it has taken this long to respond, I just checked all my mail backlog today. I've uploaded the variations (Horizon and Stream) as PNG and SVG files to the Motif page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif#FINAL_MOTIF They are in the table beneath the main Scatter Design (Bunch). Bernhard, you mentioned when the Motif was finalised that it may be a good idea to use only the Bunch Design for now and consider the other variations for future releases. I think that was a very pragmatic suggestion and I think it would be better if we used only one Design for now. I've uploaded them all because I didn't want to delay anyone's efforts. But if you decide that it would be better to only offer 1 Design for now, please remove the other variations I've just uploaded so that people don't use different versions haphazardly. I don't know when I'll be able to jump on and help again so please delete the links and files if that is what you decide. Again, reayy sorry about the delay! -Nik On 4/6/2011 7:38 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Daniel, Nik, all ...repeating the request to avoid to forget it (and CC'ing Nik to get more attention ;-) ) Daniel Merker schrieb: Hi, Sorry if this is a lazy request up front. Is it possible to have the stream version of the motif available also on the website in SVG? I know that you are busy, Nik, but as you are the only one able to provide the source file: Perhaps you can provide someone with your AI file who can take the time to export the SVG. We'll probably have to ungroup it, but this can be done similar to the standard Scatter motif. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] Design task: LibreOffice Motif
Hi Sveinn, On 3/27/2011 7:59 AM, Sveinn í Felli wrote: Replaced the files, this time without the black rectangles. <http://www.nett.is/~sveinki/libreoffice/Scatter-ungrouped-I.svg> Inkscape SVG <http://www.nett.is/~sveinki/libreoffice/Scatter-ungrouped-P.svg> Plain SVG May find some wiki-time tomorrow, but really should be doing my tax-declaration (deadline monday night) ;-( Sveinn That's perfect Sveinn. I've uploaded your files and linked them on the motif page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif Thanks for your help with this and good luck with the tax-declaration. The only other thing that's certain in life, right? ;) -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Scatter brained?
Hi Drew, all, Yeah we will get through the incompatibility problems with a little ingenuity I think =) ... I hope =( But in the mean time, I just wanted to mention 2 things; 1. First off, thanks for picking up the motif and running with it 2. Don't feel like you need to use the motif as a prominent feature of your Design, it is just support decoration. And it doesn't have to be used the way it appears, I think every Design task is still going to rely on the Designer's judgement. Having said that, I've knocked up something really quick in photoshop that might help communicate how I think the motif could "support" your postcard, rather than demand real-estate on it. I've uploaded it to the wiki here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:ROUGH_postcard_PRESENTED.jpg I've written up some draft guidelines for the motif's use on the wiki page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif But it's early days still. Hope that helps? -Nik On 3/24/2011 6:45 PM, Christopher Stark wrote: Inkscape and Scribus import them correctly it seems, I don't see any problems: http://www.christopherstark.de/extern/ink-scrib.png But Libreoffice only imports big black blocks when trying to embed the svg file. Libreoffice also has problems importing regular SVG files it seems... best regards Christopher Am 23.03.2011 20:05, schrieb drew: On Wed, 2011-03-23 at 14:36 -0400, drew wrote: BTW - I'm also using the svg file Nick posted to the wiki originally and scaling then exporting to png using Inkscape and I don't follow the problem with the transparency issue, the original and generated files appear correct with handling of transparency. Disregard that - trying just now to put that over some text, it appears I see the problem now. But only for some of the triangles it seems, odd. Best wishes, Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] Design task: LibreOffice Motif
Resending (below), original didn't get through -Nik Original Message Subject:Re: [libreoffice-design] Design task: LibreOffice Motif Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 02:33:03 +1100 From: Nik To: design@libreoffice.org HI all, Sorry for the delay in responding... Thanks heaps to everyone who has been helping! On 3/25/2011 7:20 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Sveinn, Nik, all, Sveinn í Felli schrieb: Ungrouped all objects: <http://www.nett.is/~sveinki/libreoffice/Scatter-ungrouped-I.svg> Inkscape SVG <http://www.nett.is/~sveinki/libreoffice/Scatter-ungrouped-P.svg> Plain SVG Thanks, this keeps the triangles as vectors. What I found out is: The single triangles have a fixed opacity set instead of using the alpha channel of the gradient definition. This is certainly a bug - probably when exporting the file to SVG. If there is no other possibility to turn the .psd file in SVG (I used an online converter, leading to a 300MB large file that failed to load in Inkscape), the only way to solve this properly would be to get the gradient definition for each triangle from CS5 and add them manually to the Inkscape triangle gradients. Together with correcting the opacity of the objects this would mean to do three corrections on 56 triangles - probably about half an hour of stupid work, but manageable. Hopefully it won't need to come to this =) I don't own a CS5 copy, so I can't do this. Anybody able to help out (or do just a part of it?) Best regards Bernhard I've updated the download section of the Motif page (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif). So the story seems to be this; - Inkscape users aren't encountering any problem with the alpha in the SVG file (as demonstrated by Hillar, Rob and Sveinn) - Anyone using Illustrator can use the original AI file to retain alpha - Anyone who can't get it to work in either can still use the PNG file which is high-res enough (2500x2500pixels, 300dpi) for the majority of jobs. So I have provided these three formats on the motif page in the "Final motif" download section. Sveinn, if I could get the ungrouped SVGs you created (but without a black background) off you that would be great, or feel free to replace the link on the wiki yourself if you have time. We can keep looking into a one-size-fits-all format solution, but I don't want to waste everyone's time trying to get the file right. In its current incarnations, it is usable without defects (in at least 1 of the three formats listed above). The whole point of making the motif was so we could start using it (like Drew has started on another thread). So let's get busy making Design material with them! =D Whaddaya say? -Nik PS. I've written up some "guidelines" on the wiki page for the use of the motif that I'll back up with example-images as I get time. Let me know what you think ... Are they realistic? helpful? clear? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Design task: LibreOffice Motif
Hi Crew! I've just spent several hours trying to solve this problem and delved deeper into transparency settings in vectors files than I knew existed (it gets VERY deep) and created more than 10 files which produce varying degrees of failed transparency. I'll keep at this tomorrow, but I've updated the problem section with the problematic SVG as well as a link to a pristine Illustrator file; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif#Alpha_problem And in answer to Christopher, I wouldn't usually burden this list with proprietary formats like PSD and AI but this is a special circumstance. Besides, the /tool/ isn't important, it's the contribution that counts, not the vendor. I'm pretty sure the developers wouldn't turn down a script written using Aptana rather than Eclipse =) On 3/23/2011 11:23 AM, Rob Cummings wrote: There's a spray can tool in Inkscape that allows you to paint a pattern composed of a vector shape. You can change the parameters to randomize placement, scale, rotation, etc. Using one shiny new green-gadient triangle as the original pattern, it's actually quite simple to reproduce the scatter pattern. The only thing it doesn't do is randomize the alpha, though the original pattern shape can use a gradient with transparency values. Using shapes with different overall alpha values could get us what we want. Hi Rob, I used similar tools in Illustrator to begin with, but to achieve a harmonic result, it requires a lot of manual shifting and adjusting, it actually took a lot of time to achieve a composition that sat well (balanced+organic). In any case, the randomizing of Alpha is the important part and the only problematic part so far. The vectors and placement are intact, as are the shapes/colours/scale/rotation. Hopefully it won't come to having to re-create the composition. I'll keep at it, if all else fails, I can provide the vectors alone without alpha and we can layer them (in a way that would be less effective than the current screening alpha, but is better than nothing). Thanks for helping with this! =) I can try a couple things, but it won't be until tomorrow morning (eastern US time). Rob -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] [VOTE] Design task: LibreOffice Motif
Hi Jaron, All! Some bad news =( , but first... On 3/22/2011 11:33 PM, Jaron Kuppers wrote: Hi Nik, Fantastic work Nik, both on the "Scatter" design and on organizing the motif project. Thanks Jaron! it's feedback like that that keeps a volunteer very happy =) I think it resulted in a lot of great ideas which might find uses someday in other things (like advertisement or event media). It has been great to show the potential of this community through this project and I look forward to seeing what other major tasks the community can tackle. GO Design! ;-) +1, GO Design! =) Cheers, Jaron To all, I've uploaded a usable version of the Scatter Motif to the Motif page, but unfortunately it is only in PNG format right now (although Hi-res); http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif Ideally I'd like to make vector versions available instead. Here's my problem... The Motif uses complex transparency in the Design. It needs the support of a full Alpha channel in order to appear correctly. This is not a problem for raster formats (like the PNG file currently available, GOD BLESS PNG!) But so far I have had no luck exporting to a vector format that doesn't use binary transparency, including SVG and EPS. This is not usually a problem for me because I use Adobe Creative Suite and support between the applications in CS5 is /superbly/ achieved via "smart-objects", but when it comes time to export, well, we get the problem I'm facing now, which is best demonstrated in image form... I've documented the problem at the bottom of the Motif page and added an image depicting the problem; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif#Alpha_problem If anyone can lend a hand in this, I'd be most grateful. Since I don't use anything but Creative Suite, I can't even test for alpha support in other apps. I've uploaded a PSD file containing the Motif with Alpha as it is intended to be, here; http://tdf.nikashsingh.com/misc/ScatterWithTransparency.psd Also, while we are nutting this last step out, would either Christoph or Bernhard be able to raise the Scatter Motif with the SC to get it confirmed as "officially approved artwork" ? Please don't let this setback hinder your desire to use the Motif. The uploaded PNG is hi-res enough (300dpi, 2500x2500 pixels) for most applications for now. Feel free to download and fiddle, it would be great to see some web banners/CD labels/print material etc soon? =) -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] [VOTE] Design task: LibreOffice Motif
Hi Design! Sorry this arrives so late, I meant to do it before I left for work today but didn't get a chance, just finished work now. THANKS TO ALL WHO VOTED! The votes are in... in descending order; 10 votes for "Scatter" 1 vote for "Repeating triangles" 1 vote for "Remix of repeating triangles" 1 vote for "Messy stack" 1 vote for "Triangle patchwork" --- 14 in total While it's not a huge sample, I'd say it's safe to assume we are going with "Scatter" =) I will ready the file (clean it up, flatten, then export to EPS and SVG formats) and upload it to the wiki. I'll update the Motif page now to show that voting is complete and move all our discussions to the bottom as "Design Process". I think there should be /some/ guidelines on how to use the Motif, but in general it should be very lax because the context will play a greater role in determining how it should be used than anything else. *Thanks again for everyone who contributed discussion, designs or votes.* This was a nice, clean Design exercise and will hopefully result in some very nice, clean Design material very shortly! -Nik On 3/21/2011 11:58 AM, Erich Christian wrote: Hi Nik, * Am 19.03.2011 06:01, schrieb Nik: *MOTIF DESIGN PROPOSALS;* --- Christoph's "Triangle patterns" Christoph's "Large motif" Daniel's "Overlapping coloured circles" Daniel's "Remix of the repeating triangles" Ivan's "Interweaved diagonals" Nik's "MessyStack" Nik's "OpenBook" Nik's "ApplicationCorners" Nik's "DocumentFlower" Nik's "FoldedPage" Nik's "Scatter" +1 - Erich Tobias' "Triangle patchwork pattern" My daughter prefers OpenBook but it won't get a chance as it looks like... :-) I appreciate her vote all the same ;) ciao Erich -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] [VOTE] Design task: LibreOffice Motif
Hi guys, So the Design phase for the Motif proposals has just expired, thanks heaps to anyone that participated in the discussion and the proposals. I've put together a list of all the candidates from the proposals accumulated on the Motif page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif as mentioned in a previous Email, we will vote on this Mailing list (because it is presumably convenient for all who are registered here, and aren't on the wiki) and I will collate the results on the above Wiki page (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif#Voting). The voting concludes midnight this Sunday (GMT). To vote for you preferred proposal, scan the above page quickly so you get a feeling for all the proposals, then, add a "+1 " next to the proposal of your choice. For example, here is a fake poll filled out by "John"; EXAMPLE PROPOSALS Red proposal Blue proposal, +1 John Green proposal It would help a lot if you only replied to this original Email instead of a reply posted by other members, so there is no confusing quoted votes (in case people omit their name). So without further ado, here are our beautiful finalists; *MOTIF DESIGN PROPOSALS;* --- Christoph's "Triangle patterns" Christoph's "Large motif" Daniel's "Overlapping coloured circles" Daniel's "Remix of the repeating triangles" Ivan's "Interweaved diagonals" Nik's "MessyStack" Nik's "OpenBook" Nik's "ApplicationCorners" Nik's "DocumentFlower" Nik's "FoldedPage" Nik's "Scatter" Tobias' "Triangle patchwork pattern" Happy voting y'all -Nik (P.S. Thanks for the vote already Daniel, I'll add it to the Wiki now, and sorry about the delay, this Email is sent at 5:00am GMT) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi all! Sorry if this is getting Spammy, just wanted to alert you to 2 things; - It is 3pm on Friday 18th March (GMT) right now (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/) and I'll be closing off the Design phase for the motif task in about 10 hours (1:00am GMT) from now so we can start voting. - A few people (Christoph, Ivan, Klaus-Jürgen, Paulo, as below) mentioned they'd like to see how the "Scatter" Design I proposed would look in-context (or that it didn't work well enough as a letterhead) so I've uploaded 3 variations of the Scatter Design to the motif page here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif#Scatter_in-context_update Please remember that these aren't what I would consider "finished" Design suggestions, they are only to get a sense of the use of the Scatter motif in different implementations. For example, the website isn't our current website Design but a simple mock-up I had handy and the Splash has no version/application details on it. I'm not proposing that we choose one of these variations /independently/... to me, they form 3 possible configurations of the "Scatter" motif Design proposal in general. Hope some of you manage to squeeze in a proposal in the time remaining, no pressure, just wishful thinking. And get your voting mouse-finger ready =) -Nik On 3/15/2011 10:04 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: [snipped] One additional thing ... I also have a personal favorite (Scatter), but it seems to be a bit troublesome with regard to the "letterhead" approach. I fear that the addressee and the upper part of the text might be hard to read. Maybe this is also valid for other "contexts" (Splash, Website, Writer Background, ...). Might it be useful to e.g. vote for a version (from whatever author) and create two more examples before doing a final decision which will have some impact on the whole project? Of course, I'll try to help here. Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Klaus, Sorry for the late response... On 3/11/2011 6:18 AM, ol klaus-jürgen weghorn wrote: Hi Nik, *, [snipped] When I saw the 6 for the first time I would take OpenBook. But after a while I think that the first (MessyStack) looks fresher. Interesting that you changed your mind, or that MessyStack grew on you =) MessyStack: First I was irritated by the transparency of the messy pages. The logo is quite good and on the right place. It was my first eye catch on this shape. Maybe we can make 6 sheets and on the left edge of each sheet we can put one of the coloured triangles OpenBook: The logo isn't shown as good as in the others Proposal: The same with the pages and the coloured triangles as in MessyStack ApplicationCorners: There are three motifs to look at: on the left top, on the right top and on the right bottom. My eyes are irritated where to look. DocumentFlower: It looks a little bit like in the seventies (1970s). In Germany we had a 'Pril' flower that looks like it (a dish detergent). FoldedPage: I can't identify what the motif on the right side is. For me it is a green, transparency big point. Nothing else. I think the logo should be on the right side. Scatter: It seems to be very restless for me In the coming days I'll attempt to show how this Design can be "restrained" or kept in check, despite seeming somewhat restless at the moment in its current guise. I think it will be important to propose a powerful/exciting motif because a powerful Design can be subdued quite easily, but a subdued Design is near impossible to "energise". I hope I can change your mind about Scatter with the coming additions. But in any case, it would be great if you could vote on your final preferred Design over the weekend! =) I'll be sending an Email for the vote on Saturday. As I write this, it is 2pm Wednesday the 16th (GMT). I will close the Design-phase and send out the [VOTE] email at around 1:00am on Saturday the 19th (GMT); http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/ These are my personal non designer opinions. The vast majority of our user-base are non-Designers, so your opinion is VERY welcome =) k-j -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Christoph, all, On 3/15/2011 10:04 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: [snipped] One additional thing ... I also have a personal favorite (Scatter), but it seems to be a bit troublesome with regard to the "letterhead" approach. I fear that the addressee and the upper part of the text might be hard to read. Maybe this is also valid for other "contexts" (Splash, Website, Writer Background, ...). You're right, when I was making Scatter, I wanted people to see it in its raw form which is most powerful. I didn't think enough about the context (the letterhead) and it would seem unruly now on paper letterheads. But the Scatter Design is adaptable to even this purpose. In the remaining days, I'll try and draw up some quick rough drafts of what Scatter would look like in the contexts you mention above, showing how versatile the Motif could prove (like Ivan mentioned =) Might it be useful to e.g. vote for a version (from whatever author) and create two more examples before doing a final decision which will have some impact on the whole project? Of course, I'll try to help here. Yep, that's what I envision the "Revisions" phase is for (though it is only 2 days); http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif That will give us time to muck around with the Motif to make it suitable for different purposes. And I don't know about you guys, but my files are usually pretty sloppy during the Design-proposal phase. So some time to "clean up" the loose ends will also be good. Cheers, Christoph -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hullo Design! It looks like activity on the Motif task is naturally drawing to a close. So I propose to end the Design phase at the end of Friday this week, so that we can vote over the weekend and finish this task. Which means we can start using the selected motif soon thereafter, on the many Design materials still on our to-do list. (In my eyes, the most pressing of which is a CD/DVD template for the community). I will start a voting thread, marked with [VOTE] in the subject line as per Bernhard's suggestion (which is an awesome idea I think we should pursue even further! btw). It will include the names of the proposals submitted by Friday night and you will simply have to vote by adding; +1 next to your preferred motif name. Try to respond to the original [VOTE] request message so that quoted "+1"s can't be confused with your own. It will just make it easier for me to tally. If you have a Design up on the Motif page already, I'd really appreciate if you could "name" your baby to make it easier to vote on them =) I'll create a table with a tally on the Motif page and update it regularly over the weekend. On Monday I'll send an Email with the results of the vote and request the vector files (and variations) of the Motif from the final Designer so I can update the Motif page with downloadable vectors which will be placed prominently near the top of the page. I'll then write up a list of material/collateral which the Motif can be used to create template-Designs, This can serve as a check-list of Materials requested which have been updated. *That leaves 2 days to chip in a proposal if you're still keen.* Thanks to everyone who has commented and contributed so far. I'll update the Motif page with these new dates now; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif -Nik On 3/15/2011 1:23 AM, Nik wrote: Hi Ivan, On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, Ivan M. wrote: Hi Nik! On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 6:25 AM, Nik wrote: Hi Ivan and Design! Today is the last day for adding motif proposals to the Wiki page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif I've added mine (at the bottom). And a very hasty description because I'm running short on time. Aren't we all ... regardless, your designs are AMAZING. I just wish they were available in a higher resolution (wallpapers, anyone?). Thanks and done! =) You can grab the SVG from the wiki here (or on the motif page); http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:TDF_motifscatter_110310NS.svg Just a note to all, I made it using Illustrator CS5 so if you run into compatibility problems with the file, just let me know. Overall, my favourite is Scatter (#6), but I'll go through them all with some feedback. If, at any point, my critique starts sounding overly negative, please keep in mind that I'm weighing all the options against Scatter, which I will fawn over in due time. Ivan, your feedback is always on the money and I never take it personally because you're usually right. In comparison to MessyStack, OpenBook seems more organised and tidy; I don't feel that a messy stack of pages necessarily generates a positive feeling for LibreOffice, whereas OpenBook combines interesting effects as the transparent pages overlap and limits the strong greens to the top of the page. It looks more organised and focused. The only thing I don't like on OpenBook is the green used for the LibO logo; I would have it in white (with the document icon fill set to transparent) and I would suggest that it be left-aligned. Yep, I was worried about the negative impression when I was making it, and not entirely happy with the result when it was done, for the same reasons. ApplicationCorners is nice, and although it links well to LibreOffice, the image on the top-left looks like a log on its own, and I think that sends the wrong message, particularly because there are a good number of companies that use similar logos. Compared to something more unique to LibO, like the document corners used wonderfully in Scatter, I think that, despite being lovely to look at, ApplicationCorners feels a little out of place with LibO's visual language. Yeah I know =(, sadly the strength of this design comes as a logo-type-image rather than a motif, like you said. So I totally agree, it just doesn't fit well. DocumentFlower is a great idea, but the document symbol with the cut off corner doesn't appear to lend itself well to this kind of motif - it feels unbalanced despite being perfectly arranged. I think the lack of balance creates an interesting "tension" or "movement", but I can see where you're coming from. This Design would need more work to be up to scratch. Which I won't pursue =) And it is a bit simplistic. FoldedPage uses great light greens, but it's very abstract, which makes it seem a little incoherent/incongruous (at least
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Rick, I'll try and answer your questions in turn; On 3/14/2011 12:21 PM, Rick Hansson wrote: HI, I don't understand the rush to find a "motif". There is a pressing need to create a motif which can provide a supporting visual element to new Designs required by the Design team. The adoption of a motif will move us away from the mistake of mirroring the Document-logo verbatim in all new Design material. I'm not sure whether you caught the discussion that lead up to the Motif task, where much of this was discussed? The wiki page captures many of the reasons why; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif Just personally, I wish people would stop using the word "rush" to describe a clearly planned and progressive task. Rush seems to imply there is no order to this task, when that is clearly not the case. Brainstorming can be very useful to kickstart ideas, but also wrong when you force implementation. Who is forcing implementation? - The brainstorming phase was separate to the Design phase, nothing was forced. - Design was held off until after ideas/concepts had been collected. - The Motif hasn't been finalised yet, so there has been no implementation. - The Design deadline is still open so there is every chance to contribute still to the task. Deadlines can also be catalytic. But this timeline exclude many good ideas. Which good ideas have been excluded Rick? could you mention a specific example that has not been acknowledged on the Wiki so that I can add it? If you are talking about Design ideas, a very open Brainstorming phase was undertaken for just this purpose, everyone shared their ideas. Even now, Design proposals are revealing new ideas. At what point have any been excluded? I have to take exception to such a claim because I've spent a great deal of time ensuring that doesn't happen. And the Wiki page is a collaborative tool, I'm not solely responsible for moving items there. It is easy to refer to this abstract concept that there are many "good ideas" not captured by this task. This could be said of EVERY SINGLE DESIGN TASK in the history of this list. If you HAVE a good idea, I have to trust that you'll EXPRESS this good idea on this list because it is very hard to read people's minds. It is fast, yes, but that shouldn't be mistaken for ill-prepared. Steps for this task have been clearly communicated to the team. There is still every chance for input. To wait until everyone on this list is ready would result in an endless task. We have to be realistic. But at the same time, the deadlines have been discussed on this list and continue to be. This is a big task with small benefit. Here, I'm afraid we see it quite differently. This is a small task (short time frame by conventional standard, and not very resource-intensive) with a big benefit (it will strengthen the brand once adopted and implemented consistently, give non-Design members something to base work on, it will provide an additional tool for Design members to create works from, it will define a look and feel that can be used to identify the project visually, easily). I'm afraid we'll end up with a theme or motif that only a few people like. I don't want to see spirals, waves, animals… everywhere. And If we start using something - I hope it will be used carefully. A vote will determine this. You may need to trust that any resulting Design will indeed be used carefully by the skilled team contributing actively to this project. And because this is an open source project, if you can improve on what is being offered, you're encouraged to do so. The alternative is to either /i) wait/ or /ii) not create a motif/. Neither of these is an active solution to the problems we are addressing with this task. I don't want to be a party pooper. It's exciting to see all ideas. I like Christoph's triangles. This has stimulated some creativity. I wish more designers will pump up lots of ideas, drafts, mockups.. to the wiki, not only on this thread. It's fun to see what people are thinking. This task is indeed on the wiki, not only on this thread. I've made sure to link to it with every Email regarding the topic. I would urge you to contribute proposals to the task rather than suggest the task not proceed. With that mentality, and if we are constantly doubting and delaying each other, nothing will get made, nothing will get done. And there is a lot to do. Rick -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Ivan, On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, Ivan M. wrote: Hi Nik! On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 6:25 AM, Nik wrote: Hi Ivan and Design! Today is the last day for adding motif proposals to the Wiki page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif I've added mine (at the bottom). And a very hasty description because I'm running short on time. Aren't we all ... regardless, your designs are AMAZING. I just wish they were available in a higher resolution (wallpapers, anyone?). Thanks and done! =) You can grab the SVG from the wiki here (or on the motif page); http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:TDF_motifscatter_110310NS.svg Just a note to all, I made it using Illustrator CS5 so if you run into compatibility problems with the file, just let me know. Overall, my favourite is Scatter (#6), but I'll go through them all with some feedback. If, at any point, my critique starts sounding overly negative, please keep in mind that I'm weighing all the options against Scatter, which I will fawn over in due time. Ivan, your feedback is always on the money and I never take it personally because you're usually right. In comparison to MessyStack, OpenBook seems more organised and tidy; I don't feel that a messy stack of pages necessarily generates a positive feeling for LibreOffice, whereas OpenBook combines interesting effects as the transparent pages overlap and limits the strong greens to the top of the page. It looks more organised and focused. The only thing I don't like on OpenBook is the green used for the LibO logo; I would have it in white (with the document icon fill set to transparent) and I would suggest that it be left-aligned. Yep, I was worried about the negative impression when I was making it, and not entirely happy with the result when it was done, for the same reasons. ApplicationCorners is nice, and although it links well to LibreOffice, the image on the top-left looks like a log on its own, and I think that sends the wrong message, particularly because there are a good number of companies that use similar logos. Compared to something more unique to LibO, like the document corners used wonderfully in Scatter, I think that, despite being lovely to look at, ApplicationCorners feels a little out of place with LibO's visual language. Yeah I know =(, sadly the strength of this design comes as a logo-type-image rather than a motif, like you said. So I totally agree, it just doesn't fit well. DocumentFlower is a great idea, but the document symbol with the cut off corner doesn't appear to lend itself well to this kind of motif - it feels unbalanced despite being perfectly arranged. I think the lack of balance creates an interesting "tension" or "movement", but I can see where you're coming from. This Design would need more work to be up to scratch. Which I won't pursue =) And it is a bit simplistic. FoldedPage uses great light greens, but it's very abstract, which makes it seem a little incoherent/incongruous (at least to my eyes). If a little order were to be imposed, I think it could work better. Its a difficult balance between establishing the random (natural) and ordered (artificial) feeling on this one. I think it has promise, but the balance would take time and whether that is worth attempting will depend on feedback from this list. The current colours of this Design really hide its potential. And finally, we come to Scatter. One of many possible interpretations of this could be that it looks like something has been set free, and I think this fits really well with LibO as a community-driven FLOSS office suite. I'm glad someone else gets the same "unleashed" feeling from this Design as I did =) I think this could work really well with alternating blues and greens in the scatter design (actually, it would work well with almost any color). At the moment, the scatter is also confined to a rectangular area, but it could be adapted to various shapes and arrangements for use on the website, start/welcome center, etc, and it would work really well with a minimalist look-and-feel. Subjectively, that's one of my favourite things about this design: it got me thinking about how it could be adapted and developed further into something great more than any of the others. Good to hear! =) Phew, I'm all feedbacked-out. Once again, thank you Nik for this great set of proposals. If you could flick me a SVG copy of Scatter, I'd love to take a look at it and play around with the colors. It's all yours. You may need to edit the colours to make it more vibrant. The greens I used in the file are from the branding colours and unfortunately, there is no strong saturated limey-yellow-green in that palette (the support colour is a radioactive green that just doesn't work well with the other greens). The shades of green here are too linear (in that they offer different
Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal for "Saving Information" icons on Status Bar
Hey Paulo, Kohei, Christoph, On 3/12/2011 11:23 PM, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Paulo, hi Kohei! Am Samstag, den 12.03.2011, 01:36 -0300 schrieb Paulo José: [...] Yeah, but like I've said, we should wait. I'd like to get some other members opinions, like Bernhard, Nik or Ivan. Up to this moment, just Christoph and Jaron did take part on it. Oh, go ahead - it looks fantastic to me. :-) +1 Go Go Go! full-steam-ahead, it looks great to me too and I don't think anyone would disagree! You're doing such great work that no-one wants to slow you down Paulo =) So from my point of view, it's perfect. And like Nike has been recommending since the beginning of time; Just do it! =) -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Paulo, On 3/11/2011 6:05 AM, Paulo José Amaro wrote: Hi Nik! Wow, your last proposals are actually great! I still don't feel the "motif" feeling, but I think all them (specially the 6th) should be officially used in our work. That's great to hear, I'd really love to see a proposal from you if you get the time? =) I know you're pressed for time, so don't feel obligated though. Research is a monster that never sleeps, right? =) They have quality enough to this, but still are too general to make me think on "LibreOffice" when I see them. But I think they are very promissing and define good approach to our motif! Generally, motifs don't have to be intuitive or associative graphical links to the topic like, say, icons or a logo. Sometimes they are, but in many cases, they are meant to be more abstract, so that the meaning isn't necessarily embedded without some "digging". For example, the Bahamas motif (the shapes); http://assets.creativity-online.com/images/work/large/b/a/h/bahamas-print060130.jpg doesn't make you instantly think of Bahamas islands right? (the logo might, but not the motif) ... But due to consistent-use, prolonged-exposure and clever-campaigning, they have become associated with the islands. So abstract is not a problem =) Just now some ideas are coming to my mind and if I'd have time tonight I'll make some proposals based on yours. That would be GREAT! I've posted a note suggesting a short extension to allow for more proposals, like yours, to be added! =) I'm hoping *Jaron* picks up on this hint too =) and our benevolent leader *Bernhard* hasn't had a chance to weigh-in on the issue and I'd really like his input (visual and verbal) too. So let me know what you think about the deadline-discussion. By the way, I'm very excited to comment on the others motif's proposals. This page is becoming a place full of good ideas! :-D http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif ~Paulo -- Paulo José O. Amaro Estudante de Ciência da Computação / UFSJ Webdesigner / Linked E.J. Blogueiro / CasaTwain.com -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Daniel, All! On 3/12/2011 12:33 AM, Daniel Merker wrote: Hi everyone, I will be submitting a motif draft today. Sorry for the wait but it has been crazy lately. I'll try to get it done before this afternoon. -Daniel Merker I don't want to rush or inconvenience anyone to get Motif proposals in and the weekend has gone too fast. It is important that we have a deadline for this task (otherwise it will go on forever), but having to pick from too few proposals would also be quite bad for the project. I'd like to shift the "close of Design" phase to the end of the weekend (giving only 1 extra day) or later. But first; I'd just like to know if anyone else is interested in making a proposal but hasn't because of time-restrictions? The dates posted aren't hard-and-fast limits, they are just in place to ensure the task finishes. But can be extended if it will increase the likeliness of a quality Motif Design surfacing. What is everyone's thoughts on opening votes on Wednesday (16th) next week and closing them Friday (18th)? I'd especially like to hear from the regulars and the people who have been involved in the Motif discussion so far. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re:[libreoffice-design] General relationship between coders and designers
Hi all, On 3/11/2011 1:36 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: As I said to Nick, I hope that my apologies will make you change your mind. I have very bad taste regarding design (as a vast majority of developers), so I fully trust design team opinion when it's given. You don't need to apology for anything! Very true. Just to clarify with yourself (Sebastien) and Christoph, there's no need for either of you to apologise. Sebastien you're doing a great job and I'm sorry you got caught up in this at all. I'm more disappointed with Michael's "down get bogged down by Designers" mentality than anything, but even on his part, I can see this is just a misunderstanding, one which is probably the result of his not having time to read the thread, but the assumptions made were quite typical of developers who don't think much of Designers. Like Bernhard said, it's just demeaning for that to come from one of the most prominent developers in the community. If your opinion would have been shared by Michael, I'd never had written such a mail. [ skipping more comments I totally agree with ...] Thanks for your patience and positive attitude towards other parts of the community. +1 I still hope that this is the way we all can work together on topics important to more than one single group or team. Best regards Bernhard While I'm going to stick to my guns and avoid this issue so I can focus more on a more straight-forward current Design topic, I'm sure someone else with step in. We have a great crew and I hope this hasn't diminished your resolve to work with them Sebastien, thanks for being so patient. I've worked with Developers who respect Designers and vice versa, and the result of that collaboration is always magic. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Ivan and Design! Today is the last day for adding motif proposals to the Wiki page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif I've added mine (at the bottom). And a very hasty description because I'm running short on time. Mainly, my theme centres on the "collaboration/community" aspect. And some exploration of the clipped corner. Most of my shapes occur in "six-sided configurations" to reflect the writer/calc/base/draw... apps. Good luck with your own proposals. Remember, they don't have to be perfect, they just have to be ready enough to be voted on. We can refine them as a team a little later. Hopefully we can stick to the proposed timeline and go to a vote end of this week. now for some feedback On 3/7/2011 7:12 PM, Ivan M. wrote: Hi Nik, all, First of all, Nik, thank you so much for driving this forward - you're doing a fantastic job! Thanks amigo, That's high praise coming from /you/! =) On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Nik wrote: [...] So we have ideas and concepts, *It's time to Design!* * Pick a concept you'd like to convey and, while adhering to the branding, create a first draft of your motif. * Upload it to the Wiki page (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif) under the new "Motif proposals" section (bottom of page). * Add a preview image (jpeg/gif/png) if possible (svg preview is quite bad). * Explain what you were aiming to do with the Design, or more importantly, what it communicates. I've uploaded a rather quick and simple proposal to the wiki page with some descriptions and self-critique. I realise that it looks a little kitschy now (double rainbow all the way across the sky...) but I don't have the time right now to refine it further (or make a letterhead), That's cool, I can totally imagine this in a letterhead and a whole bunch of other formats, especially if used as a narrow strip. You actually managed to skilfully combine the application colours, which inspired my own attempt at mastering composition of the application colours. And you used a TEXTURE really well, something I'd like to see more of, because texture says so much by impeding so little. but the LibO rounded document corners could be brought into play as well. On that little tangent, I was also wondering what a bokeh-like effect with the LibO rounded document corners would look like (if it was done properly)... If you manage to make a Bokeh motif work, and we complemented it with bokeh photography, that would make for AMAZING compositions! I'm looking forward to seeing what others come up with! Regards, Ivan. Thanks for pitching in during your busy-season Ivan. And I too am looking forward to what gets made by the crew? Head on over to the Motif page to catch up on what's happened so far; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff
Hi Christoph, all, Oh boy. I thought I'd wait a few days before responding so that I wasn't as offended as I am now, but it looks like you're expecting something from me and I don't want to delay Sebastien's work. I think I'll save myself the stress and step out of this task. I must have confused it for a discussion about a UI-issue on a Design mailing list. On 3/9/2011 4:42 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: Personally, I'd like to both look at Sébastiens work, and on Nik's work once being reade. [...] Personally, I would have preferred you to move on to some other fun / high-impact win, rather than getting bogged down in random details here ;-) Please don't expect anything from me. I won't be contributing to this task further. I don't volunteer my free time to be told how unimportant Design "random details" are. Someone else will pick it up. Good luck. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
AWESOE! >=D
-Nik
On 3/6/2011 3:33 AM, Jaron Kuppers wrote:
Wow Nik, thank you so much! That was extremely helpful. My brain is
in super mode now thinking of design motifs!
Cheers,
Jaron
On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Nik <mailto:n...@tdf.nikashsingh.com>> wrote:
Whoops, forgot to reply to Design-list instead of just to Jaron...
Original Message
Subject:Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re:
[libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 17:32:13 +1100
From: Nik mailto:n...@tdf.nikashsingh.com>>
To: Jaron Kuppers mailto:jaronba...@gmail.com>>
Hi Jaron,
On 3/5/2011 6:37 AM, Jaron Kuppers wrote:
Hi Nik,
I would love to be involved but unfortunately I still feel
that I don't fully understand what is desired in the motif
(what is the end deliverable). Of course, design is not my
main background (mechanical engineering is) so hopefully once
design proposals go up I can contribute. I look forward to
seeing motif's!
Cheers,
Jaron
Sorry if I've been unclear about what the Motif-Design task entails.
I think I've done a better job explaining it on the wiki
(http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif) than I have on
this list.
So if anyone else was also wondering what a Motif is, it's
basically a decorative visual element, usually quite abstract
(curves, patterns, colour-combinations, shapes, textures, or a
combination of all).
It usually gets used as subtle background elements in a Design
composition, or as recurring content-separators.
This is what Wikipedia thinks it is;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28visual_arts%29
More to the point, here is what a leading branding agency made
when decorating a plane;
http://landor.com/index.cfm?do=ourwork.casehistory&cn=6147&source=enews&utm_source=mailer&utm_medium=email&utm_content=wv1&utm_campaign=SuperBowl2011&bhcp=1
<http://landor.com/index.cfm?do=ourwork.casehistory&cn=6147&source=enews&utm_source=mailer&utm_medium=email&utm_content=wv1&utm_campaign=SuperBowl2011&bhcp=1>
(The ribbon that spans the plane is their motif, a very
sophisticated way of saying "smooth ride" don't you think? =)
Essentially what we're aiming for is to create a pleasant vector
graphic that is so subtle that it can occupy empty space in an
elegant way.
*Sometimes it will be directly behind text so it needs to be
low-contrast and low on "noise" (not very intricate or busy).*
You have probably seen vector-flowers or inward-curling leaf/vine
shapes. Here is a typical example;
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/8603944/2/istockphoto_8603944-decorative-swirl-motifs.jpg
While flowers are nice, they don't say very much about Open source
software right? =)
So our goal is to come up with a "theme", such as "freedom,
collaboration, or independence" and create an abstract
representation of that, which we can use as a basis for ... well
... everything!;
posters, banners, web-pages, business cards, CDs/DVDs, your
slow-moving grandma, whatever really! =)
It is hard to create visual representations of intangible
concepts, but that is our challenge.
I'll collect and summarise the feedback from the "brainstorming"
phase tomorrow and present it to this list.
So if you want to add your two cents, feel free to dive in any time.
Hope that makes it a smidgeon more clear for everyone who wasn't
too sure what I was jabbering on about.
And thanks for bravely piping-up and letting me know I hadn't
defined the task to a wider audience Jaron!
Right now we need ideas, and once we've gathered some good ones
up, we can start sketching.
By the way, if you're looking for a simply AWESOME implementation
of a logo-brand turned into a motif (and everything else), look no
further than Duffy & Partner's "Bahamas campaign";
http://sublimedesign.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/1273.jpg
Hope that clarifies and inspires =)
-Nik
--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
<mailto:design%2bh...@libreoffice.org>
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo
Hi Joey, This feedback comes waaay too late, but I think your changes to the type have been awesome improvements in many areas (like the way you made the arch ascender of the second "f" end in a way that is concentric to the tittle of the "i", very nice). Like some others, the way the arm of the "f" touches the "i" makes me slightly uncomfortable when reading the word. In any case, what I wanted to say is, I think your small improvements will be hard-pressed to outweigh the deficiencies in the typeface itself. I think the design of the typeface is flawed and can't really be "fixed" with small typographic adjustments. For example, even replacing the text with Arial is an improvement (but maybe only to me). I'd like to know where you stand on the typeface in general? do you think it works? I have problems with the geometric shape of the characters; * I don't like that the arm of the letter "L" appears thinner than the stroke-width of its stem (may just appear that way). * I think the kerning should be a lot tighter between the letters so that the distance between characters is the same as the gap between the stroke and tittle of the "i" * The bowl of the "b" makes no attempt to appear concentric (but that is just taste, many typefaces feature this) * I don't like that the beginning of the shoulder on the "r" is thinner than the end of it, especially because it is next to an "e" which is even in stroke width * I don't like that the foot of the "e" doesn't "close off" the shape which is featured in the eye * The "f"s are difficult in many ways * the "c" will need to change in order to appropriately match the curve of the final "e" * the list goes on really ... But most of this is too nitpicky, no font is perfect (except HELVETICA =). I'm not trying to be nasty, but this typeface looks genuinely unfinished. I think we would do ourselves a huge favour by locating a better font for the next version of the logo. What do you think? change or stay? and if change, do you or your colleagues know of any good open-source fonts? I know ... It's very late to be talking about such things, but discussion in this vein might make for a better future logo. -Nik On 3/5/2011 4:52 AM, Johannes Bausch wrote: Hey, okay, I've tried to set up a voting page for us, see here: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey/Ligatures <http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey/Ligatures>Do you all have write access to this page? I am not that experienced with wikis. @Bernhard: I've shifted the i more to the left. I've also redone the visual kerning for some of the letters; have a look at the scaled-down versions, it "should" look more even now. @all: It would be great if you voted on the wiki or here on the mailing list. Even if you disapprove of this poll it would be great to get some more opinions on this; so far it's only five people who talk about it. Thanks, Joey PS: I'll be away until Wednesday next week. 2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippold Hi Joey, all, replying to both of your mails, so please scroll down until the end... Johannes Bausch schrieb: Hey, to gather some more opinions I thought it would be a good idea to have a poll somewhere else, so I asked people in a forum to cast their vote. Although I don't know whether this was a good idea (not really representative, game design forum, so people might be programmers) I thought you might be interested in the results: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Poll.png It's impossible to see the different alternatives, because at my computer the background is nearly black. Ii updated the image with a slightly lighter grey background, so you can see the different alternatives, but keep the white text of the poll results. Apparently noone likes the too fancy ligatures. Most people also complained about the logo in general, so I tried to explain why this is (and remains, for now) the logo of LibO. If you're interested in the comments, too, I'll send you the link. So... in the next days I'll make some final drafts and put up a voting page. If you have some final ideas please tell me. People seem to like the last alternative (with "f" bow bent towards the "i" dot) as much as the original. Even if this is far from being representative, I'd like to see a finalized version of this proposal. Could you improve this by moving the "i" nearer to the "f"? I don't think that equal spacing for the dot between "f" and "i" looks best... Perhaps a combination of your third an my proposal? Greetings, Joey 2011/3/2 Johannes Bausch Hey Bernhard, 2011/3/2 Bernhard Dip
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout
Hi Ricardo, all, On 3/7/2011 2:41 AM, RGB ES wrote: Agree: I prefer no shadow at all, specially if it means more system resourced used to no real usability gain. Shadows make sense only when you need to visually separate between stacked elements on a multi element UI like a desktop, but LibO UI is *single* document. And even if multiple document UI is developed this should be through a split screen/tabbed interface because it make no sense to put all documents on a "desktop inside the desktop" like it was on old staroffice 5.x. And even if the reason is because "aesthetics", that's also arguable: I always disable shadows on my kde box, even if I like other eye candy effects a lot... I think that a subtle gradient on the background, or even the possibility to set up your own "walpaper" will be a lot better than casting a shadow over a coloured "void". Just my 2¢ Ricardo Must be a subjective thing then. Once you add that background-image though, you'll be mighty sorry you don't have a drop shadow to separate your document from that busy background image. Which would be a usability gain. And even if it doesn't there's that precious fleeting thing called User Experience. I for one, love drop shadows on my documents, makes it easier to focus. I'd propose having a drop shadow by default and having the option to turn it off, or turn it "flat" (like it is currently). I know; it's easy to say, but hard to implement. Sorry. Just out of curiosity, are the shadows going to have transparency/alpha? Once people add background images, you wouldn't want to see the edge between where the bg-image picks up and the shadow drops off. And the idea of coloured drop shadows truly turns my stomach, it's too unprofessional? On a Design note, while I'm glad we've proposed blurred border on all four sides (because nothing is worse and less-realistic than a default right+bottom dark blurred drop shadow), ...the apps use top-lighting. So the bottom border should be darker than the left,top and right borders. Any gradient on the back should be lighter at the top and no other direction. The "size" of the blur should be indicative of how far you want the user to perceive the "piece of paper" is from the "background" it is hovering above. Right now the blurred border is too dark to be that wide; The larger the blur-radius > the further the background > the more diffuse the shadow/lighting becomes > the "paler" the shadow should be. And the shadow should scale with the zoom-level, when have you ever seen a thumbnail-size paper cast shadow twice its size in all four directions? At a football stadium, I'm guessing =) That will conveniently address the "proximity-to-neighbouring-pages-issue" too maybe? I'll actually chip in a mock-up in the next few days if time allows. Maybe the Motif-Design task can tie into this and become the subtle default bg-image? -Nik 2011/3/6 Rick Hansson: Hi all, I don't see any reason for having borders or shades at all. A plain background is fine. Keep it simple. I made a quick poll among friends and they all have different ideas, so this would be great if it could be optional. Also, since many like gradient backgrounds, why not make that optional as well? I've uploaded some drafts: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Doc_bgr_grad1.jpg http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Doc_bgr_grad2.jpg http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Doc_bgr_grad3.jpg The default prefs are very important, since most users stick with them or doesn't even know that you can do changes. The text boundaries for example should be unchecked. Rick On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Sébastien Le Raywrote: Le Fri, 4 Mar 2011 21:36:19 +, Daniel Merker a écrit : Hi, Just a thought. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the background be the primary color of that application. For example, the Writer would have a blue tinted background with a shadow (I like the shadow on all sides), and Impress would have an organge tinted background with the same shadow around the slide. This should help tie in the color theme and help build on a general motif. -Daniel Merker Hi, The background color of the application can already be customized through preferences... regards Sébastien -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hullo Design! It's open-season on the Motif. *We have hit the week-long (business-week) Design phase!* So get your preferred tool of awesome-vector-creation out, whether that is Inkscape, Illustrator or even pencil+paper (not so scalable =). Here is a summary of the ideas resulting from the brainstorming phase; * History * Revival * People / Community * Imagination / Creativity * Possibility * Freedom * Openness * Security * Individuality * Professionalism * Others are listed in more general descriptions on the motif page Here is what our branding specifies; * Clean * Balanced * Friendly Recommended visual tools; * Colour * Pattern * Shape * (I would add: texture) So we have ideas and concepts, *It's time to Design!* * Pick a concept you'd like to convey and, while adhering to the branding, create a first draft of your motif. * Upload it to the Wiki page (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif) under the new "Motif proposals" section (bottom of page). * Add a preview image (jpeg/gif/png) if possible (svg preview is quite bad). * Explain what you were aiming to do with the Design, or more importantly, what it communicates. * If possible, please provide a preview of how the Design would look in context: it should be the same context to keep everything consistent.* So the context should be: An A4-size letterhead for LibreOffice* (210mmx297mm). This is so you don't have to worry about creating content. And you can add this letterhead-info to make your life easier; Name Surnameson 123 Roadly drive, Suburbia SinCity, Countria. 54321 Tel: 9876 54321 Fax: 9876 54322 Email: name.surname...@generic-co.com Just add the logo somewhere on the letterhead too and your Design motif somewhere on the page. You can fill the page with Lorem Ipsum dummy-text (http://lipsum.lipsum.com/) to add realism. Head over to this page for more information: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif ... On 3/6/2011 10:32 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Nik! Am Samstag, den 05.03.2011, 03:33 +1100 schrieb Nik: Hi Design! 2 more days to go until the "brainstorming" of motif ideas is over and we begin design proposals (on Monday). Head over to this page for more information; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif I still try to figure out how to catch up with some of the older tasks ... if I won't manage that (well), I'll simply upload what I have tomorrow evening (my time). On 2/28/2011 10:45 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: ... Am Sonntag, den 27.02.2011, 22:36 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: ... http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/11/libreoffice-33-artwork-improvements.html I'm glad to include these on the page, but we should expect that these previous elements will have no significant bearing on the Motif yet-to-be-designed. I don't like carrying-over elements just because they have been used, I think it would be better to craft new elements from scratch with clear purpose+intentions+context from the beginning. True, but I hope that gives an impression what we've used so far - maybe it is inspiring - maybe not :-) I still like it somehow, since the show-to-the-upper-right triangle (whether it is varied in size, color, position) is still a strong link to the Document Symbol. Hi Christoph, I think the triangle is great, but to continue to use it in exactly the same way as in the logo, I think that would be a mistake. It seems too obvious and repetitive (not in a consistent way, but in a tiring way) to use it in many places. And adding more clipped top-right corners and floating triangles will reduce the impact of the current logo's appeal. But that is just my opinion, obviously no-one is restricted from creating whatever motif they want to propose! And, personally, it does have some meaning for me (progress, freedom, direction, guidance). See you tomorrow ... Cheers, Christoph *C'mon crew, let's drop some jaws! =)* -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Whoops, forgot to reply to Design-list instead of just to Jaron... Original Message Subject:Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 17:32:13 +1100 From: Nik To: Jaron Kuppers Hi Jaron, On 3/5/2011 6:37 AM, Jaron Kuppers wrote: Hi Nik, I would love to be involved but unfortunately I still feel that I don't fully understand what is desired in the motif (what is the end deliverable). Of course, design is not my main background (mechanical engineering is) so hopefully once design proposals go up I can contribute. I look forward to seeing motif's! Cheers, Jaron Sorry if I've been unclear about what the Motif-Design task entails. I think I've done a better job explaining it on the wiki (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif) than I have on this list. So if anyone else was also wondering what a Motif is, it's basically a decorative visual element, usually quite abstract (curves, patterns, colour-combinations, shapes, textures, or a combination of all). It usually gets used as subtle background elements in a Design composition, or as recurring content-separators. This is what Wikipedia thinks it is; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28visual_arts%29 More to the point, here is what a leading branding agency made when decorating a plane; http://landor.com/index.cfm?do=ourwork.casehistory&cn=6147&source=enews&utm_source=mailer&utm_medium=email&utm_content=wv1&utm_campaign=SuperBowl2011&bhcp=1 (The ribbon that spans the plane is their motif, a very sophisticated way of saying "smooth ride" don't you think? =) Essentially what we're aiming for is to create a pleasant vector graphic that is so subtle that it can occupy empty space in an elegant way. *Sometimes it will be directly behind text so it needs to be low-contrast and low on "noise" (not very intricate or busy).* You have probably seen vector-flowers or inward-curling leaf/vine shapes. Here is a typical example; http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/8603944/2/istockphoto_8603944-decorative-swirl-motifs.jpg While flowers are nice, they don't say very much about Open source software right? =) So our goal is to come up with a "theme", such as "freedom, collaboration, or independence" and create an abstract representation of that, which we can use as a basis for ... well ... everything!; posters, banners, web-pages, business cards, CDs/DVDs, your slow-moving grandma, whatever really! =) It is hard to create visual representations of intangible concepts, but that is our challenge. I'll collect and summarise the feedback from the "brainstorming" phase tomorrow and present it to this list. So if you want to add your two cents, feel free to dive in any time. Hope that makes it a smidgeon more clear for everyone who wasn't too sure what I was jabbering on about. And thanks for bravely piping-up and letting me know I hadn't defined the task to a wider audience Jaron! Right now we need ideas, and once we've gathered some good ones up, we can start sketching. By the way, if you're looking for a simply AWESOME implementation of a logo-brand turned into a motif (and everything else), look no further than Duffy & Partner's "Bahamas campaign"; http://sublimedesign.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/1273.jpg Hope that clarifies and inspires =) -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice official color names
Hi Bernhard + Christoph, Can I butt-in for a second on just one issue; ... On 3/3/2011 9:33 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Bernhard, all! Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2011, 23:00 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: [...] The greyscale logo uses a 50% grey level (#808080), and I'd like to keep it. But the darker part of the logo is black only in the basic logo. We already discussed the black issue several times, so I'd like to see a "LibreGrey 0" to be used for the dark part of the colored and the greyscale logo. In my eyes 80% grey (#33) is dark enough to look distinct from the lighter tone, but is recognized as "not black". It is simply music to my ears to hear you say that Bernhard =) After so much discussion that seemed to have been swept under the rug, it is good to hear confirmation of this (sub)topic. "Several times" is an understatement =) and if you go back through the proposals you can see a correlation between the level of "finish" in the designs and the absence of pure black. Can we finally put this to bed and move to a dark-grey instead of black? reasons; - Black is unfriendly - Black creates a negative emphasis on contrast (especially given the simplicity of the shapes in the logo) - Makes text "stick out" rather than "blend in" - The Green doesn't match the black comfortably, but matches the greys well - Printing dark grey is not an issue (including the mono version) - Using Grey, especially in gradient, creates the perception of lighting Really, you only need to look at the difference between this; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice_Initial-Artwork-Logo_ColorLogoBasic_500px.png and this; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice_Initial-Artwork-Logo_ColorLogoContemporary_500px.png to know that they are worlds apart. Black text on white background = default = no thought given to appropriateness of message = no design effort made. We could add "LibreGrey 2" and "LibreGrey 3", but I don't think this is necessary for the LibO palette. Mmh, I got lost a bit ... if I understood it correctly, you discuss the logo instead of the color palette to be included in / translated for LibreOffice. Concerning the former, the black is still fine for the Basic logo for various reasons. Indeed, the Contemporary logo features the different gray shadings (and is the only one as far as I remember). We shouldn't have "contemporary" and "plain" versions! that will only cause inconsistencies. Why aren't we just moving over to the contemporary version as the /main/ logo? The plain logo has no benefit over the contemporary version and switching them will not create confusion, they are essentially the same thing (to end users). If we include the basic colors in the palette, more grey values are as important as the main colors. The logo point will probably not make it past this email, but the switch to grey over black should be considered. I mean, haven't we been through this enough times to know that it isn't worth continuing this mistake? Has a single person even been able to provide a substantial reason that black compliments the branding (clean, balanced and friendly) positioning? -Nik PS. I'm the biggest fan of black in identity design, but only when it suits the brand. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Design! 2 more days to go until the "brainstorming" of motif ideas is over and we begin design proposals (on Monday). Head over to this page for more information; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif On 2/28/2011 10:45 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Bernhard, hi Nik, all! I'd like to second Bernhard's "Thank you!", since you take care of this topic! No problem, but time is running out for me unfortunately, one of you guys may have to take over before the "task" is complete =( Am Sonntag, den 27.02.2011, 22:36 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: What we should add to the motif page are the examples used already: - the single triangle (like the bullet points on the website) - the grouped fading triangles in the left upper and right lower corner (from the start center) - Paulo's idea of five colored triangles sticked together in a vertical row (on his light banners in the donate button) - outer border with rounded corners and cut-off right upper corner (don't know if this really qualifys as motif, but it has an impact on the general visual impression) ... any others? Hi Bernhard and Christoph, I've added your respective comments on the motif page and listed the "previous attempts" list Bernhard summarised above (but haven't linked any because I'm short on time). Thanks for the nice collection - "close to motif" had been used for the presentation template. The outline of the triangles in the background ... http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/10/libreoffice-presentation-template-first.html There is one item which is even less a motiv, but repeated throughout many of the graphics for the software: a non-symmetrical circular color gradient, and some linear gradients in the "header" and "footer". An early version: http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/11/libreoffice-33-artwork-improvements.html I'm glad to include these on the page, but we should expect that these previous elements will have no significant bearing on the Motif yet-to-be-designed. I don't like carrying-over elements just because they have been used, I think it would be better to craft new elements from scratch with clear purpose+intentions+context from the beginning. Cheers, Christoph Looking forward to some sexy motif proposals real soon crew! -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] You've got hate-mail
Hi Marc, all, On 2/24/2011 2:58 AM, Marc Paré wrote: Le 2011-02-23 10:01, Nik a écrit : Do we have a Sean Parsons on this list? -Nik Ahem ... I think using "Hate mail" is a little too strong. This would make it impossible for this individual to join our team(s) if he decided to join and to contribute or submit proposals. It must just be my abrupt sense of humour, which is often lost-in-translation in Email Having said that, I don't think we can afford to be "precious" about strong words in the subject of this email when some stronger words are in question in this article. Let's just say that he had his reasons for posting and let's take the high road and offer him a place here where he could be part of the group rather than being on the outside. This is, IMHO, a better approach to take even. This is not the first or last time we will be criticised. Marc, you can take the moral high-road if you prefer. I'd rather get to the heart of the problem. And it *IS* a problem. It's not just feedback, it's not just criticism, Designers are good at handling both. We receive it here daily. This is shameless self-promotion at the cost of a community while hiding behind that same community's generosity. If this were some member of the public with no knowledge of our workings, It wouldn't phase me. But instead, we have a member of our community, who, instead of discussing it here with us and forging a better result, chose instead to publicise his lack of support due to a number of /subjective/ Design opinions. And mentioned us *explicitly*. Lots of people are on this list, most of them for a good reason: they want to further our cause Some are on it for other reasons: they want their Designs approved or else they will whine on the internet until someone listens. Look it's clear Sean has a defense-team already protecting his right to complain despite the damage it would do to us as a team. So instead, I'll aim this generally at everyone on this list; If you REALLY care about this project, and something doesn't go the way you'd like, just talk it out here. Or Email privately. *Anyone writing open letters to us on the internet knows full-well that it is as likely to be picked up by the press as it is our team.* And anyone interested in voicing their opinion at the expense of our team, isn't in it to benefit us at all. Just themselves. You can paint me as the devil, but I've disagreed with plenty of choices made here, but not once have I been tempted to complain about that elsewhere. It's the difference between a frank discussion and idle gossip. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Daniel, Tobias and anyone else keeping track of this activity, I'm sorry about the lapse in communication and the incorrect deadlines. I've been asked to extend the "shelf-life" of this project, so I have; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif A new work schedule can be found on the above page. *We are in the Brainstorming session, which will end in another 7 days: on Sunday. *What we need now is ideas, about the concept/theme/perception that should be communicated in the motif. If you think visually feel free to add graphic ideas, but right now, text is more useful before pen goes to paper. One-word concepts would be just as useful as descriptive text. The motif-Design task will end on Sunday 13th March, and will be finalised by Thursday 17th March. It will go to a community vote to determine the preferred motif. ... Some feedback on the 2 proposals so far; On 2/27/2011 12:12 PM, Daniel Merker wrote: Hi, Finally registered with the wiki and added my file for the motif discussion: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Alternate_Logo.svg -Daniel Merker Hi Tobias and Daniel, I've added your proposals to the wiki page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif My initial feedback would be that the designs are somewhat visually overpowering themselves and will compete with the contents for attention. The motif will need to be something that provides a "canvas" on which other elements can be placed. It is a support element, and so, may need to be somewhat less "attention-grabbing". But these are just suggestions, not instructions. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful by making a graphic example of what I mean, I just want to wait until the brainstorming phase is complete first and we have a strong "theme/idea/perception" before spending time making actual proposals. Thanks heaps for getting the ball rolling with some visual ideas. If I've missed anyone's feedback on this matter so far, just let me know and I'll add it to the Motif page. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] You've got hate-mail
Hullo Design, For anyone not subscribed to the Marketing list, one of their members found this online; http://thelinuxbox.org/news.php?2011/02/21/an-open-letter-to-the-libre-office-design-team.html Do we have a Sean Parsons on this list? -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Designing a LibO Motif
Hullo Design! After taking into consideration some concerns raised by Christoph and Ivan here, I'll be reviewing the schedule for the Design motif task, most probably to extend to the middle of next month (March). I'll post an updated schedule and update the wiki page tomorrow; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif -Nik On 2/22/2011 5:07 PM, Ivan M. wrote: Hi Nik! On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 3:19 AM, Nik wrote: Hullo Design! You may have seen the other threads but I just wanted to summarise and clarify; We are taking on a challenge of Designing a Motif that can be used in LibreOffice Design material in a matter of 1 week! This doesn't take precedence of the need for fund-raising material, indeed nothing does! But if you would be interested in contributing ideas/Designs to this lightning-task, (or "sprint" if you're into your methodologies), just reply in this thread/on this list. I've set up a page here to collect thoughts / collate efforts on this task; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif We are in the first step right now; COLLECTING OPINIONS AND BRAINSTORMING IDEAS. We have to Design a motif, my question to you is: *What do you think would make a good motif for LibreOffice?* I think we should definitely go for something abstract, as you sugested. The LibO/TDF logo is the (mostly blank) page, and this conveys possibility: the page is a neutral space to project specific ideas onto. Abstract artwork would allow us to show something more tangible than a blank sheet, but at the same time it would involve a deal of projection. Of course, my description of abstract artwork here is pretty abstract in itself; more specifically, I'd suggest using light colors (for subtleness, using all application colors if tastefully possible) and something to do with the processes associated with documents and paper: typography, printing, layout/formatting, binding, etc. Thanks for your efforts, Nik! I really look forward to seeing this progress (and, time permitting, playing a small part). Regards, Ivan. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] They need graphic material, WE NEED A MOTIF!
Ah, good to hear from you Ivan! On 2/22/2011 4:46 PM, Ivan M. wrote: On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 3:40 AM, Nik wrote: I would really appreciate if some of the Design leadership (Bernhard, Christoph, Ivan) commented on whether they thought this plan is feasible. Or updated it with times that are more appropriate. I share Christoph's reservation about the term 'leader', but I do think we need a clearer project structure - it might just be a matter of semantics (i.e., choosing a better word than 'leader') since some people have established themselves very well in the project (including Paulo and, of course, you), and it would help new people to distinguish whose words (currently) carry more 'oomph' in the project. I wish you, Bernhard and Christoph would reconsider this, or at least discuss it amongst yourselves. Right now we have informal leadership from the three of you, and many of the long-term members recognise this, but without formality, there is no way of our many newer members to be aware how much has transpired before or why your opinions/recommendations should (rightly) be considered to carry more weight than the average response. This is a meritocracy, we have meritorious members, without recognition of their status, how are new members supposed to know who to listen to so we don't keep making the same mistakes as before. The word (leader) itself might be uncompromising or lacking subtlety, but if we get right down to the *truth* of the matter, what the three of you are doing is leading/guiding the team's efforts. That is leadership. So that there can be no confusion amongst members, that is what you should be called. Any other "compromise" description serves no clear purpose than to obfuscate your true role in the team. Other projects (within LibO and outside) have leaders. It makes it easy to know who to consult, who to listen to, who has experience that will ensure the best results. And if LibO is going to /TRULY/ be different from OOo then we have to learn from the mistakes made in that project: One of the biggest problems was that everything seemed Designed-by_committee. What resulted was good (no ... GREAT!) Designers -like Paul- who wanted to use their little free time to contribute HIGH quality work to the project and became frustrated at the lack of leadership-authority and the constant and endless contradictory Design requests from the community. And left. Now, you've all mentioned you know that Design-by-committee doesn't work, so that can't be the way things are done in this project. Otherwise it's doomed to have the same problems as before. And frankly, I'm not interested in making 5 million alternatives for the 5 million tastes in this community, I don't have the time. What is infinitely important to recognise is that while all members are entitled to provide feedback and can identify what they like (taste), not ALL members have Design-eyes and can determine what works visually in context to our overall style (Design sensibility). *What I want, as a contributor,* is a leadership team who has Design credibility and an eye for detail, who can guide the final product in a Design direction that is the equal of some Linux distributions (which are truly well Designed). *Be brave, be confident and just take the step that needs to be taken in order to bring that structure and stability to this team that we both know is needed.* I don't think Paulo or myself would consider ourselves ready for leadership responsibilities. I am not a consistent contributor and you cannot rely on my constant availability here, such is the nature of my work. Paulo is a Design PRODIGY and a truly gifted and enthusiastic addition to our team, but is new to the team and project. He will surely be a great leader, in time. Three people have remained active, proactive and loyal to this team for the last 10 years: Bernhard, Christoph, You. I think most of this team already understands who you are and why you command the community respect you do. I think they trust your judgement and loyalty to the product. If we know all this, then all that is needed is formalisation of this acknowledgement. Can we take this opportunity to establish ourselves as a credible and organised facet of this project and just elect a leadership team? I realise it is awkward for you three to make such a recommendation. Instead, I will be making a formal statement/request for election later this week. As a member who has spent roughly 5 years contributing to this cause, I feel confident in making this request. I hope that will give you, Bernhard and Christoph enough time to consider your stance on the matter. And I hope that will give the members of this team enough time to contemplate who they trust and how we will benefit from a more strategic process of guidance and leadership. Which will put t
Re: [libreoffice-design] Designing a LibO Motif
Hi Rob! Thanks for the prompt feedback =) I'm adding your response to the Wiki page now. On 2/22/2011 1:54 AM, Rob Cummings wrote: I'd love to help out where I can. I'll probably come and go from the conversation, as sometimes it seems the most work here is done when I'm not at my desk. Lol Yes that sounds great, whenever you get a chance. My background is actually in architecture, so my notion of motif may be different than yours, Nik. Please feel free to steer me back on course if I wander too far from what we should be doing. ;-) Awesome, my girlfriend studies Architecture and if our relationship is anything to go by, I'm sure we'll have PLENTY of misunderstandings =) I'm a huge Architecture fan myself, I love MIES VAN DER ROHE's Barcelona Pavilion and hope one day to own a Barcelona chair =) Would love to see your work too if you're online somewhere? (So much for keeping people "on-course" right?) Ideas for motif: + Reinforcing the brand through use of color elements, namely green or the corresponding color for the app. + Anchoring content space (cards, brochures, web pages, etc) with the use of full-bleed color bars on the left or bottom. For example, create a green bar at the bottom of every web page and use the same thing for print material. + Develop (or find one we can use) a web icon set with a distinct look that reinforces the rounded corners of the logo clipped corner triangle. Paper clips, paper stacks, pencils, and other office-like imagery. + Develop other imagery (minor or less-formal logo) that can be used to represent the project in a less formal manner. Eg. Coke vs. CocaCola, Chevy vs. Chevrolet, except visually. Other things are escaping me at the moment, but I'm excited to see other suggestions. So am I. Thanks for that Rob, and welcome to the team! Rob On Feb 21, 2011 9:20 AM, "Nik" wrote: Hullo Design! You may have seen the other threads but I just wanted to summarise and clarify; We are taking on a challenge of Designing a Motif that can be used in LibreOffice Design material in a matter of 1 week! This doesn't take precedence of the need for fund-raising material, indeed nothing does! But if you would be interested in contributing ideas/Designs to this lightning-task, (or "sprint" if you're into your methodologies), just reply in this thread/on this list. I've set up a page here to collect thoughts / collate efforts on this task; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif We are in the first step right now; COLLECTING OPINIONS AND BRAINSTORMING IDEAS. We have to Design a motif, my question to you is: *What do you think would make a good motif for LibreOffice?* a few things to remember; - The motif has to be subtle (it will be a support element and not the primary focus) - The motif has to be general or abstract enough to apply equally to every Design job Looking forward to hearing from you all. Every idea could be a gem and everyone is capable of having ideas. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] Designing a LibO Motif
Hullo Design! You may have seen the other threads but I just wanted to summarise and clarify; We are taking on a challenge of Designing a Motif that can be used in LibreOffice Design material in a matter of 1 week! This doesn't take precedence of the need for fund-raising material, indeed nothing does! But if you would be interested in contributing ideas/Designs to this lightning-task, (or "sprint" if you're into your methodologies), just reply in this thread/on this list. I've set up a page here to collect thoughts / collate efforts on this task; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif We are in the first step right now; COLLECTING OPINIONS AND BRAINSTORMING IDEAS. We have to Design a motif, my question to you is: *What do you think would make a good motif for LibreOffice?* a few things to remember; - The motif has to be subtle (it will be a support element and not the primary focus) - The motif has to be general or abstract enough to apply equally to every Design job Looking forward to hearing from you all. Every idea could be a gem and everyone is capable of having ideas. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] They need graphic material, WE NEED A MOTIF!
Hi Mike, I'm about ready to send out to the entire Design list in a sec, but I just felt compelled to respond to your questions first. On 2/21/2011 7:02 PM, Mike Houben wrote: Hi Nik, Paulo, and all the other Followers :), Am 20.02.2011 um 15:18 schrieb Nik: *So the schedule looks like this:* Brainstorm ideas: Monday 21st Feb - Tuesday 22nd Feb. Design vectors: Wednesday 23rd Feb - Thursday 24th Feb. Decision: Friday 25th Feb. Revisions: Saturday 26th Feb. Finalised: Sunday 27th Feb. Wy we have to rush on this? After some initial presentations on this List I had some Loong Discussions (FOSDEM was for me nearly only "NOACK" ;-) He is nice, but don't wan't to start a discussion with him, you end talking hours/days with him ;) - You should listen to him. He knows his stuff). Christoph was understandably concerned about resources/time for the coordination of this task. That resource is me. The time is mine. Christoph is in support of this, as I have volunteered to do things (document progress) that would usually fall to him (or Bernhard) and occupy their time. Christoph and I go a ways back, he knows I value his input, and I'm pretty certain he reciprocates =) In this discussions I realized that we can't really do it like in the real world of Design and we shouldn't do this. Why? In the last couple of days I tried to work for Libreoffice, but with my studys I realized that a Day had not enough hours. I think other which are motivated to work with us understand this. It's nearly impossible for me to invest so many hours on Libreoffice in this short of Time. It's an insane Schedule I understand your concerns, not so long ago I asked for the slow and steady approach on the website list. I prefer careful consideration as everyone does. But make no mistake, this is a SMALL task with a BIG benefit. It doesn't (nor SHOULD it) require too much deliberating and discussion. The reason for the fast pace; - We are being realistic, this time-frame coincides with the availability of members who can actively contribute to the task - There IS an urgent need for this, more items will be designed everyday until this becomes available, each different to the last - There is a very serious semantic discrepancy between the graphic symbols being used to "decorate" items and their meaning in that context. This higher-level abstract visual element will remove our current dependency on symbolism we have that is not versatile enough for consistent cross-format use. - Right now the groundswell around LibO is high, if we wait for the "right time" to come for us to Design these things, we will find we are already fixed into graphic elements that were adopted along the way due to use/exposure, rather than careful Design alignment. The right time is now. Never less, I love the motivations and directions in which we are heading. My Schedule-idea is a lot slower, because we have something already in place so we can take time to work on the new Design motifs. It's never a good idea to hurry in an FOSS-Community and to do it right and for all possible aspects we should take a really slow but INTENSIV Schedule. That is the traditional wisdom yes, but you cannot apply that to every circumstance. I need you to understand that this Time schedule is not "rushed", it is focused, yes, fast-paced, certainly, but "rushed" suggests there is no forethought/planning or time to reflect and improve. That is not the case here. It is possible to work efficiently and that is what I propose. Anyone who has worked in a Design firm is capable of (and indeed, familiar with) rising to the challenge. Everyone should present his Ideas/Wishes/Presentations on his personal Wikipage and we will present this ideas like that to the others. If we have this, we can discuss and "vote" for the ideas here on the Mailing list and make a Schedule on the Ideas we all have. This will happen, it will be discussed on this list and ideas will be posted on the wiki. Everyone will have a chance to participate, it will be conducted openly for all to see. No one reports to me, I'm simply coordinating efforts. I agree with the community voting where it is applicable, but we do not VOTE for every item that is Designed, that is impractical, just the big ones (eg. logos). This is a meritocracy after all and the three "judges" assigned to this task are meritorious, senior, trusted, unbiased and established members on this list. No one would doubt that, of that I'm more than certain. A decision made by them will be respected by our team and can be made very quickly. [I think the Feature Request on many sites works like this. You make a List with a little (or big) Presentation of every idea and the User (outside and inside) can vote on the ideas.] If we really wan't to rush th
Re: [libreoffice-design] Well - no way around it - if you go to a show you need a disc
Hi Bernhard and Drew, On 2/21/2011 12:15 PM, drew wrote: It's not a big deal, it was just a couple of general comment somewhere in todays email scanning. Best wishes, Drew Oooh, you are probably talking about my "motif" rant then I'm guessing. Sorry Drew, your Design and all the efforts on SCALE weren't what I was thinking about when I wrote that. What I had in my mind was a disc design brought up on marketing some time ago by (I feel bad for naming names) a bloke whose name was probably "Fabian". He uploaded a Design that was made with good intention, but he wasn't a Designer and hadn't found anything on the marketing pages he could use. He made his own, and while I don't think we should STOP people, I think having a label ready will definitely HELP people from making his mistake. Which in my mind was a drastic shortage of white space. It reminded me STRONGLY of old driver-CDs that came with Windows 95. I'm actually quite impressed by most of the stuff you've posted so far and I think your booth is gunna look rather nice by the sounds of it. The Design Fabian went with in the end had a LOT of text information on the disc label itself, you seem to have worked around this issue by using the website on your router/ disc packaging. I think that is the preferable way to go. And sorry about the lack of feedback/help. You seemed to actually have everything well in hand. I think most of us are trying to "fix the biggest leaks first", and your efforts aren't leaking =) Sorry about the miscommunication? -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] They need graphic material, WE NEED A MOTIF!
Hi Christoph, Design! I'll respond to Christoph's Email below, but generally, lack of time has prevented work on the motif until now, quite understandable. While I have some time free I will be using it to "lead the charge" on the Design of a motif in 1 week. *That will start tomorrow (Monday 21st February).* I just wanted to give everyone a heads-up if they want to contribute. Over the next 2 days we will discuss this matter here on this thread and I will collate opinions on a wiki page. Thank you Paulo, Rob, Tobias, Daniel and Rick for the support so far (by the way guys, if you're interested in helping -even down the track- it'd be great to see you on the Design team member list so we can start getting to know each other; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team). But just to keep this discussion on track, the website mock-up was just to emphasise the power of using 1 "corner". It wasn't really a Design proposal for the website because that is not likely to be re-designed for some time, we can plan for it of course, but working on redesign right now is probably not a good idea. Just wanted to draw focus back on the Motif; - This will be undertaken in parallel with current "fund-raising" activities - I will coordinate efforts, but will have no "decision-making" power (read end of Email) - We will be *done by the end of the week* - EVERYONE is welcome to take part -Nik On 2/20/2011 11:39 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: So what is the problem at the moment? The material that gets created varies ... everyone in the community (you mentioned the CDs, banners, leaflets) adds his own personal style / interpretation. It's hard to take care of that, even for the "reference material" (a.k.a. what we can create for the others) it's hard to keep track. Let's be realistic: I don't think having a Design motif will "fix" this problem. I think having a Design motif will "improve" this problem. Why? Because - looking at the requests during the last weeks - many of the requests are still unanswered. Many of us are busy - you, Ivan, Bernhard to just name a few people who have a higher workload at the moment (independent from LibreOffice). So even if we decide on a common motif, it's likely that we are not able to incorporate it. Thus, the community takes care ... and is less strict with regard to the visual quality (in terms of design language). I will respectfully disagree on this point. If we have a Design motif, we won't /have/ to "answer" the outstanding requests: we will empower the community to do it themselves in a manner more consistent to the way we would do it if we had the time. Having it as a basis will prevent many community members thinking about creating a new Design from scratch. I think this currently happens because there is a lack of graphic resources for people to use if they have to make, for example, a CD label. But with an easily available motif, we would be addressing that shortage. And I don't think its a matter of restriction, its a matter of facilitation. It will help US as much as the community... Imagine we are asked to make business cards tomorrow, urgently; - We will use the logo, that is the one fixed element - The rest is up to the Designer really, they will probably use the "borders" from the icons because that is consistent with all the Designs so far, but realistically, what good are borders on a business card? especially when bleed is so crucial. - They might use the vignette, but radial gradients "band" on poor printers - They might use a corner, that would be nice, but overall the card would look bland and unexciting. Having a Design motif (or a few variations of one style) would give us immediately an additional resource to use when tackling every new Design task. It will also mean that every task will look more consistent than if there were no recurring motif. So my question is: If we can take care of such decisions within the next days, I'm totally happy. But on the other hand, we really have to move on and show that we are productive ... now. I'm surely not exaggerating if I say "urgent" concerning the funding elements means we've "missed some deadlines" already. Believe me, I understand the fund-raising is the priority, I will be working on that in parallel. I don't mean to take effort away from this exercise, I just think it is unrealistic to think that we will get a "quiet moment" in the near future that would be a more appropriate time to create a motif. And every job that goes out in the mean time will just look like a document icon, even though an icon is not the appropriate message in that context. So I still wonder whether an improved "motif" helps, or a more focused work on the open items - even
Re: [libreoffice-design] Interim Icons without subline
Hi Bernhard, On 2/20/2011 12:05 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: ... I created a new version of his proposal with a slightly enlarged LibreOffice text in relation to the symbol: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Non-TDF_logos.png This will allow us to have a smaller minimal size (of the combined logo), because the text stays readable (=larger) in the logo. Do you think we can use such a logo as a basis for the no-subline-logo necessary for the trademark? Best regards Bernhard +1 -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] icon proposal (draft)
Hi Tobias and Johannes, On 2/20/2011 2:36 AM, Johannes Bausch wrote: The coulored backgrounds would look good for the app icons, the ones with white background for the file icons. The ones with black border look better. 2011/2/19 Tobias Bernard the proposals;) http://img194.imageshack.us/i/blackborder.png/ http://img11.imageshack.us/i/colorborder.png/ http://img23.imageshack.us/i/colorbgb.png/ Tobias, first, welcome to the Design team, I'm sure one of the leads will drop in momentarily to give you the run-down =) Your Designs are nice, the coloured ones though, lack a visual-association with a paper "document". If you were going for more of an application look, it might be better to hint at the UI a bit more? And while I understand the Design temptation to space the "lines" in the writer icons more evenly, they now lack a semblance to "dummy text" paragraphs. In any case, I just wanted to mention some back-story about the reasons for the colouring of the icons. - The coloured outline of the icons was used to suggest a coloured/categorised "folder" containing the document - The light-grey inner outline was used to communicate the depth of a paper stack - The white interior was retained to capitalise on user's familiarity with the affordances of paper (white: write-able, greyed corners: flip-able) It took Bernhard, Christoph, Ivan, Jaron and Paulo many iterations before it was just "right". And now that they are finished, to the satisfaction of this team, our focus has shifted to the next Design task: fund-raising. While I don't mean to dissuade you from contributing work on the icons, I think it's only fair to tell you that the icons are pretty much "done" and won't need to be touched for a while. Well not re-designed anyway, only finalised, by the above Designers. We could really use your hand on the fund-raising drive though; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/FoundationChallenge#Proposals Would you be up for that? Alternatively, there's plenty of stuff going on here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Work_Items and be sure to add yourself to the new page of Design contributors; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] They need graphic material, WE NEED A MOTIF!
A DESIGN-MOTIF. URGENTLY.* I propose the following timeline because it is necessary and because I have heard a few people (Johannes? Paulo? Jaron?) suggest they may be available soon. - *2 or 3 days* to discuss on this list ideas about what the motif should be. What the "perception" should be. - *1 or 2 days* to design a vector composition - *1 day* when Bernhard+Christoph+Ivan (as the most-active and senior members of the Design list) decide on 1 motif - *1 day* to refine as per feedback. So this could be all done in a week if we are agile. I know it isn't ideal, but the current logo was made in the same circumstance. And we cannot go on treating the logo/icons as Design:formatting elements!!! As soon as we have a Design motif, in a couple of variations, it will be easier to make everything look professional and clean (assuming the motif itself looks this way). In the mean time, I strongly recommend that the fund-raising banners be made *IN AS SIMPLE A WAY AS POSSIBLE!* So that they do not hint at a Design/style that we will not adhere to long-term, or create a perception of a Design direction which has not already been decided. They should be as /neutral/ and /occasion/-specific as possible and bare no strong /stylistic/ elements whatsoever. Otherwise people will come to think of them as the LibO "style" and we will have to honour it. Right now too many different/incomplete/disparate/unintentional/inconsistent design items are making their way to the public and our ability to intelligently "master" a design style or direction for LibO is slipping out of our hands. The more this continues, the more LibO will be a haphazard collection of randomly made design elements. It'll be like OOo all over again. I would really appreciate if some of the Design leadership (Bernhard, Christoph, Ivan) commented on whether they thought this plan is feasible. Or updated it with times that are more appropriate. On 2/19/2011 9:28 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: @ Paulo, Nik: If you have some time, could you please dive into working on the missing graphics? It would be great if you could coordinate this on this list, to avoid doubled effort. If you miss the time, I'll jump in tomorrow ... but I'd like to work on other less visible funding stuff :-\ The missing items are listed here: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/FoundationChallenge#Required_Items Hi Paulo and Christoph, I will work on some Community banners seeing as how they are urgent. I think Paulo can work on the same thing without "doubling" our efforts seeing as how multiple banners are needed. Whaddaya reckon? you know, some people do also miss normal web banners. Yes. Most of them are called "Marketing executives" ;) But they invented Google-ads to satisfy /that/ crowd. ... IVAN!!! I know you're immensely busy old chap, but I'd be super-interested to know what you think about all this. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-design] Logo proposal without TDF line
Hi Bernhard!, all! On 2/6/2011 9:06 AM, Dr. Bernhard Dippold wrote: I'm sorry I keep bringing this up, but I think it's necessary to discuss and plan for this. Most people will see our logo before they even try the software. We might lose them before we even shake their hand. You really think that we lose most of our possible customers because of our poor logo? I didn't think it would be *that* bad... Best regards Bernhard =) You're right, probably a gross over-exaggeration. But here's an interesting (well, kinda boring actually) story; At the end of last semester, one of our students asked me how to go deeper than simple web-dev. He wanted PHP. I opened up Eclipse and Netbeans homepages and told him these 2 were the bees-knees. I expected he would opt for Eclipse because they had a better (not usability-wise) website (wasn't always the case, that). He said "Hmmm, I'll give this (Netbeans) a try" and I asked him "out of curiosity, why not eclipse?". He said; "Their logo looks like it was made in a high-school design competition"... That made me smile. Such a simple, uneducated choice huh? but who here is not guilty of having judged a book by it's cover? Sadly, almost all my books have nice covers. I'm not really ashamed, that's the power of good Design. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Logo proposal without TDF line
Hi Bernhard, Christoph, all! Sorry for the laaate reply... On 2/9/2011 9:32 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Christoph, all, ... once more even important mails need to wait for reply... Christoph Noack schrieb: Hi Bernhard, I'm sorry to appear a bit disruptive, but I think that the changes concerning the logo already address some parts of the community branding. Although I'm happy if we can further refine our branding, I fear that such changes lead to a bit confusion ... I've already seen a lot of Material created for the trade fairs (shirts, banner, pens, lanyards, ...) being affected of such changes. Moreover, blogger and press already use the given material ... so I am a bit doubtful concerning any change at the moment. I might be totally wrong, but what I understood when talking to Charles and other SC members was, that they want to provide a different logo without the TDF subline to be used in external references to the LibreOffice product and community. I don't know about a final decision with regards to the license of this "external use logo", but as it might be different from the present logo license I thought a slightly different logo could help. The logos are similar enough to recognize them as belonging together, while the modified symbol allows a differentiation to the TDF symbol. I know that people already created some material based on the logo with TDF subline. This logo should no longer be used for external references (if I understood Charles right) - so many of these items might not be appropriate for a longer time, if they contain the TDF subline. But if the SC decides just to remove the TDF subline from the logo, the modified logo ideas will become relevant, when we start discussing the Community Branding. Thus, if there are issues to combine the document symbol with the rest of the graphic items, would it be helpful to just foucs on the text LibreOffice and a subline? We actually re-used the TDF symbol in the icons just to drop it from the logo? I'd like to promote this symbol in external resources too. The Branding Guidelines already allow to use the text and the symbol independently, so this would not be any problem even with the present graphics. If we add new sublines, which sublines and at which position (and distance to the text), we need to discuss with the marketing team, I think. If we need something "neat", why not play with the triangle that may be added somewhere - it can also be considered to be a (current) key visual. Of course we can use the triangle as an additional branding element, but I would not replace the document symbol... Best regards Bernhard PS: If the logo is considered to be too distinct from the present logo, we should add it (together with Nik's proposals) to the wiki in order to not forget it until we start the Community Branding. M, I'm going to risk sounding like a broken record (but that's what happens when one has a one-track mind like me), but I'm just slightly (not seriously) disappointed by the rigidity around the logo. I understand the need for consistency, but not consistency at the price of quality. These change; (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibOlogo_reconfigs03.jpg) are VERY small changes. (although Bernhard did get a bit more "wild" with his =D ; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibO_Logo_idea.png). Right now may be the BEST time to make them, because they have been plastered across fewer things and places. The longer we wait the more difficult it will be. In my opinion when the Community branding /does/ arrive, it should be a MAJOR OVERHAUL. Not just a /slight change/ to the existing logo's composition. This logo was made for The Document Foundation, where a "document" makes sense as a logo, but LibreOffice is a SUITE of software, not just a document. The Community logo should take that step and address this issue. (maybe bad example, but MSO's "flower" is a symbol of the 4 main applications comprising that suite, not trying to turn us into them, just saying that by comparison we seem to be "missing the bigger picture" metaphorically). For the mean time, the document will do, but that doesn't mean to say that the logo, exactly as it was originally created, should remain unchanged until the Community Branding arrives does it? Because that is a long way away. Ohh, I argue for this but I don't know if it means anything to anyone else. If I'm the only one that sees it this way I'll stop and turn my attention elsewhere. Branding is important to me, but I know it's not the only thing we do. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Logo proposal without TDF line
Note to all: long email, you may want to skip it and just check out these if you have time; * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibOlogo_reconfigs01.jpg * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibOlogo_reconfigs02.jpg * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibOlogo_reconfigs03.jpg * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibOlogo_reconfigs04.jpg * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibOlogo_reconfigs05.jpg Hi Bernhard! I know I told you I'd be busy with my research but you keep raising interesting topics that lure me back! =) Besides, some /*very*/ important stuff is being decided right now, that if I miss out on, I know it will never get changed again. That is the way of Open-Source huh? like a big machine on rails that can only go forward, not back =) On 1/31/2011 9:12 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Do you think we can present this logo (or something similar) to the Steering Committee as our Design Team proposal for an official logo of LibreOffice for external use? Comments? Critics? Improvements? If the possibility of /small/ changes are possible to the logo in this context, can we take this opportunity to address some if its shortcomings? I mean it is the *one symbol* that represents this WHOLE community and project. It wouldn't entail major changes, but the longer we trudge on with an "interim logo", the more certain I become that it will remain the *only* logo tried. I won't write a million words like I usually do, just a thousand =) ... I'll try and explain in designs instead; I've uploaded a deconstruction of the TDF-less logos here; *http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibOlogo_reconfigs01.jpg* R01 was the centered original logo, R02 is what I think David was suggesting (*bottom* aligned as /well/ as right-aligned). But even with R02, the space between the icon and the text creates a "void" and looks separated. R03 is what I would recommend, I think the gap could decrease and because the letter L has a good "corner" effect, it perfectly juxtaposes the icon when aligned. This way, the entire arrangement would look like one visual "block" which is what you want; White space /around/ the logo, rather than /between/. This image shows how the spacing may be causing the element to look "disconnected"; *http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibOlogo_reconfigs02.jpg* If we were feeling adventurous, I think small changes could really improve the look of the current logo; (refer to R05) *http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibOlogo_reconfigs03.jpg* - Clip the L so it is cut by the same gap which slices the paper icon: for continuation. - Lighten the colours to mid-grey instead of dark-grey, this will still print well and compliments the green better. - Colour the "broken corner" of the paper icon to create a focal point that leads the eye through the logo I'm not sure giving the members "logos" is the entire solution because it just creates many logo variations. I think creating "badges" for community members with a non-TDF logo /attached/ will send the right message without diluting the brand. Because it suggests affiliation without suggesting ownership. I think Charles mentioned this in an Email to the Design list (I've CC'ed him), I was really excited by the prospect of making team badges, but because I'm short on time, I've only got roughs (plenty of glitches). I thought the topic could wait, but these are related things. I thought we could create "shields" or "emblems" for our community. R07 shows "members" and "distributors" roughs only; *http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibOlogo_reconfigs04.jpg* And they could be arranged in something like this way (R08); *http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibOlogo_reconfigs05.jpg* This way it is not a logo, it is more like signage. Right about now, you're probably hoping you hadn't asked for feedback right? I'm sorry =) ... But let me know what you think, these are all embedded in my page now anyway; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Nik I'm sorry I keep bringing this up, but I think it's necessary to discuss and plan for this. Most people will see our logo before they even try the software. We might lose them before we even shake their hand. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibO banner
Hi again, I didn't intend for the banners to be removed, just /reviewed/. Everything goes through the review process. It's our best means of normalising out subjectivity. On 1/29/2011 8:24 AM, Ron Carter wrote: Sure, I have no problem with toning things down, but the web2.1 "wave" design" is, as you put it, a trend as well. I would disagree, Coke and Pepsi were sporting the wave in print long before most people knew the web wasn't just the thing between their fingers. But I'm not trying to defend my design. You're right, it isn't optimal. I admit that happily. Banners are ephemeral, are meant to catch the eye, and yes, sometimes crass. Yes, sometimes they are. But it doesn't mean they /have/ to be. If everyone was still trying to "out-crass" each other, there'd be a lot more animated-GIFs around. And Lolcats. And banners may be ephemeral, but a bad impression lasts a lifetime. If you want "conservative", then sure, not a problem either. It just won't bring in the crowds like a good ballyhoo. True, but I don't MAKE the rules, I just play by them. Like a team does. I don't want conservative; I want quality+consistency. ... On 1/29/2011 7:03 AM, drew wrote: You should probably sit down before reading my next comment. Can we have a bit of iteration before one of these goes live? +1 Yessiree, that certainly knocked the wind outta me Drew! -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibO banner
Hullo Design! On 1/28/2011 4:38 PM, David Nelson wrote: Hi Ron, :-) content "snipped" I'll definitely post all your work on the libreoffice.org site, as I mentioned before, but would just like to see a green light from Christoph and the guys, beforehand, in case any slight alterations are requested. If they don't respond after a few days then I'll take it as a go. I'm sorry to be a pain, but can we put a quick freeze on the banner-approval? I never like slowing down work but I think the banners need refining before they become publicly available. There are few pieces of feedback I'd just quickly like to blitz through; The banners on this page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding/Banner_Proposals incorporate style elements we've previously discussed as being detrimental to the desired look and feel of the brand. Namely, the use of a glossy sheen effect along the top and the over-powering saturated colours. We should really try and stick to the simple/plain feel of paper, and drop the shiny web2.0 effects. That was a trend, not an enduring mark of quality design. Definitely not something to base an identity off. The proposals further down the page are slightly more conservative but they don't show a respectful use of negative space. The logo basically occupies as much height as there is available in that space. I've seen a couple of examples of this, the CD label is another; You don't have to stretch the logo so it covers all the available space. In fact, it's infinitely better if we /don't/. Empty space should be preserved, not just because the logo guidelines say so... but because it is a mark of maturity in a brand that uses empty space well. The logo is a logo! not a Design motif! or a background element! it shouldn't be the largest design element on ANYTHING! Only overzealous marketing fanatics ever want to see this. An OpenSource organisation, especially, should be a bit more humble. This is what Microsoft office uses as their banner; http://www1.partnerinfo.lenovo.com/us/en/images/microsoft_office_banner_940x180.jpg You can mock them if you're game but THAT is quality design. And they understand the value of space. We might make better software, but we are LIGHT YEARS behind the game in design. You don't believe me right? well here's a lotus notes banner; http://www-10.lotus.com/ldd/insidelotusblog.nsf/dx/IBMLotusNotDom8signature4a.gif/$file/IBMLotusNotDom8signature4a.gif I'm pretty sure you're seeing a pattern. (But I'll admit, even this banner has an ugly fat logo overpowering the balance) I HATE criticising without contributing, so I've uploaded a very haphazard banner here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibO_Banner.jpg It's FAR from perfect, but it conveys a point. It uses the icon Ivan linked to in a previous post; http://itweek.deviantart.com/art/Knob-Buttons-Toolbar-icons-73463960 and not much else. Can we have a bit of iteration before one of these goes live? The MimeType icons deprived Bernhard, Christoph, Jaron and Paulo of sleep for WEEKS, before it was "official". Every Design element we make inconsistently now will increase the amount of effort to get it overturned and improved later. Does anyone remember a certain seagull-shaped logo that stubbornly held it's decrepit ground? I hope this gets interpreted as helpful feedback and not b!tching/lecturing. I'm just genuinely concerned about what we put out for the public to see. And a lot of people might see these. Sorry if I came across rude; no sleep. And sorry Ron, I'm not having a go at you, it's just a touchy matter? -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] MimeType icons - template
Hi Christoph, Bernard, all, I know the time constraint plays an important role in this, and for what its worth, I think you've come up with a really professional icon Design in a short amount of time. I'm just sorry my contributions lately have been all talk and no graphics. Talk is cheap. On 1/10/2011 10:23 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: Here is the original version: http://picasaweb.google.com/noack.christoph/LibreOffice#5558854821889918786 Here is the refined version: http://picasaweb.google.com/noack.christoph/LibreOffice#5560329076596107730 Opinion(s)? I think the lighter interior is an improvement and I _would_ recommend switching the icons so that the current template icons serve as document icons. It is hard to explain in just words, so please refer to this image I hacked together to help explain; http://tdf.nikashsingh.com/misc/christophicon.jpg The original template icon (t1) still seems best to me because it looks like a Paper stack, backed against a blue folder lining. Of the new lighter versions, while they are an improvement, t2 has no light-grey gradient on the white inner surface and d2 uses a light-blue inner border. My eyes interpret this as; - t2 loses the consistent look because it doesn't share the "universal top-lighting" that shades its border and page contents (the mock-paragraph-lines) - d2 loses the impression of a pile of stacked pages because the inner border is blue rather than grey. Reducing the effect of depth. I think t1 is perfect the way it was originally. Just drop the binder and reinstate the grey left-inner-border (t1B) and it's a perfect document icon. I understand that time has run out. This is not a change-request, just feedback. But that is just my opinion. I pay too much attention to these details =) I LOVE the template (binder) icon. Great stuff Christoph! Oh, thanks a lot ... but really, I'm just jumping in because we miss a "pro" here :-) In my opinion, anyone capable of creating this; ... http://picasaweb.google.com/noack.christoph/LibreOffice#5558854821889918786 ... is someone I'd readily consider a "Pro". And Bernhard, I think your proposal to complete the icons in their current form is most reasonable. There will be a chance to address these small issues down the track, like you mentioned, and I think Lib/O deserves non-OOo icons! =) +1 to your "icon finalisation agenda" -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] MimeType icons - template
Hi Christoph, all, On 1/7/2011 9:45 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: Shamelessly, I also BCC Thorsten and Nik - I'm not sure whether they are aware of the current discussion. It would also be great to hear their opinions, and maybe we can join all the forces :-) I have been following the icon discussion, but I didn't want to speak against the current icon any further because I didn't think it would be helpful. I created a *really* quick proposal to demonstrate the "paper-feel" I mentioned in an earlier post (here; http://tdf.nikashsingh.com/misc/writer_icon.jpg), but because the existing icons had so much work already done by yourself, Bernhard and Ivan, I just thought I'd let it slide so that progress wasn't hindered. And I ran out of time to contribute, myself. But to be honest, I had a very big problem with the icons because they didn't resemble documents to me at all. They looked more like sim-cards or SD-cards for cameras. For me, the paper/document analogy was lost. But your most recent proposal, for the template icon; (http://picasaweb.google.com/noack.christoph/LibreOffice#5558854821889918786) is simply PERFECT. The simple change of making the document WHITE again addresses ALL my concerns. I absolutely LOVE the way that large white+blue binder icon looks (bottom left corner). I hope you would consider making all the icons White in the center with a coloured border (corresponding with the application). The multiple paper colours of the different icons currently don't look very ... consistent, or sophisticated. I think that between the coloured border and the symbolic "contents" of the "pages", users will be able to differentiate file types. It might be just me, but the current approach of flooding each icon with one main colour seems a bit, for lack of a better word, insulting. As if to suggest users aren't capable of differentiating between more subtle variations. But that is just my opinion. I pay too much attention to these details =) I LOVE the template (binder) icon. Great stuff Christoph! -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] The interim website
Hi Bernhard, Christoph, all, I know this isn't something on our current to-do list or a priority, but I've been watching the talk about the soon-to-be-launched Lib/O site; http://test.libreoffice.org/ I know this is a work-in-progress and I see the hard work that was put into its realisation. So I don't mean to undermine any efforts so far. But if the site is going to be live, I'd like to help address the overall appearance so it doesn't look so "raw". I've uploaded a couple of quick mock-ups here; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Nik#Interim_Website_Design_proposals They show a potential arrangement for the Homepage and an example of a two-tiered navigation. (Past usability concerns about this type of horizontal menu bar can be addressed using some intelligent JavaScript). If I've jumped the gun, or contributed unnecessarily on a topic that has already been finalised, my apologies and no harm done. I just want to help ensure Lib/O puts its best foot forward. On a less helpful note, I wrote this Email (below) some time ago in response to the icons. For some reason it wasn't received by the list. I've included it below because I still feel that the concern I raised should be aired while discussion on the branding is still relevant. I hope you find time to read it even though it is somewhat long, but I'll understand if you don't get a chance (it *IS* Christmas after all). Happy Holidays everyone! -Nik PS. I know this is probably more relevant to the Website list but I didn't want to cross-post and I thought it warranted discussion on the Design list first. In case I've made a mistake. UNRECEIVED EMAIL; Hi Bernhard, Christoph, all, Christoph Noack wrote: > Okay, but - at the moment - you might be more interested in the page > I've already mentioned: > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Initial_MIME_Icons Can a be a real wet sock and just bring up a concern quickly before everything is set in concrete regarding the file icons? I noticed that the icons carry on from the current logo design. While the logo design concept of the dog-eared document is iconic and intuitive, I think the implementation of the logo needs some work before it looks like a professional brand. But that may just be my opinion. What is more relevant right now is the derived styling of the mime-type icons and the "reflective surface" in particular. I'll be bold and get straight to the point: I think there is no need for those icons to be reflective or "shiny". The Document Foundation (TDF) and LibreOffice have a real opportunity to build a very strong brand from scratch. One that isn't driven by Internet-popularised trends like Web2.0 reflections. That's an opportunity to carve a distinct identity free from design fads and trends. The "reflection" will lose favour in time and stop being "new" soon. TDF should create a look that is unique and specific to it's character and purpose. Paper is the heart of the Design concept of TDF right now if I'm not mistaken. I've never seen a piece of paper reflect light like a metallic object. Let's stick to the properties of common paper for our Design inspiration and we'll be more consistent for having done so; Flat, smooth, porous and fibrous = Honest, simple, warm and natural. This is just a request. But I hope you'll consider it an important one for getting our brand right? I know I'm raising concerns without offering solutions and I know it may not be practical to do so at this time. I'm sure I'm being idealistic while you're all being pragmatic, but I just thought it was worth asking in case it was an oversight. -Nik PS. I'm guilty of using more than my fair share of the shine/reflection, but the first time I heard the name "The Document Foundation" I just knew this wouldn't be the place for that kind of Design. It just doesn't suit the cause. I hope I'm being more constructive and less obstructive. For what it's worth, I like the icons, I just don't think they're entirely appropriate? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
