Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

+1 to always version the output format From: Dinesh Joshi Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 3:36 PM To: dev Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors This adds maintenance overhead but is a potential alternative. I would only flip

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

As Eric said, a major release is not a license to make externally visible breaking changes. We are too mature a project now. I have OCD tendencies like many people here, but one must learn to live with aesthetically imperfect tool output. Internal changes are fine, external changes that are

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

This adds maintenance overhead but is a potential alternative. I would only flip the flag. I would prefer to make the default "legacy" output and innovate behind a "--output-format=v2" flag. That way tools do not break or have to change to pass in the new flag. Ideally we should always version

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

> *From:* Miklosovic, Stefan > *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2023 8:20 AM > *To:* dev@cassandra.apache.org > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors > > "Dinesh's message cautions against making "breaking" change

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

@cassandra.apache.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors "Dinesh's message cautions against making "breaking" changes that are likely to break parsing of output by current users (e.g., changes to naming/meaning/" That is 100% correct. So by that logic,

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

. From: Eric Evans Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 17:09 To: dev@cassandra.apache.org Subject: Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors You don't often get email from eev...@wikimedia.org. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> NetApp Security W

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

reping" it and it is not there, it will break. Do you understand that the same way or am I interpreting that wrong? From: C. Scott Andreas Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 16:35 To: dev@cassandra.apache.org<mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org> Cc: dev Subj

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

__ > From: C. Scott Andreas > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 16:35 > To: dev@cassandra.apache.org > Cc: dev > Subject: Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors > > NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or > open a

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

Dinesh's message cautions against making "breaking" changes that are likely to break parsing of output by current users (e.g., changes to naming/meaning/position of existing fields vs. adding new ones). I don't read his message as saying that any change to nodetool output is conditional on

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

_ From: C. Scott Andreas Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 16:35 To: dev@cassandra.apache.org Cc: dev Subject: Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

"From what I see you guys want to condition any change by offering json/yaml as well."I don't think I've seen a proposal to block changes to nodetool output on machine-parseable formats in this thread.Additions of new delimited fields to nodetool output are mostly straightforward. Changes to

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

self. > > From what I see you guys want to condition any change by offering json/yaml > as well and I dont know if that is just not too much. > > > ____________ > From: Eric Evans > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 19:48 > To: dev@cassandra.apache.org > Subject: Re: Changing the outpu

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

ache.org Subject: Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors You don't often get email from eev...@wikimedia.org. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or open attach

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

Agreed with Eric’s point here, yes.- ScottOn Jul 12, 2023, at 10:48 AM, Eric Evans wrote:On Wed, Jul 12, 2023 at 1:54 AM Miklosovic, Stefan wrote:I agree with Jackson that having a different output format (JSON/YAML) in order to be able to change the default output

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

On Wed, Jul 12, 2023 at 1:54 AM Miklosovic, Stefan < stefan.mikloso...@netapp.com> wrote: > I agree with Jackson that having a different output format (JSON/YAML) in > order to be able to change the default output resolves nothing in practice. > > As Jackson said, "operators who maintain these

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

read/drrpskmoyd2t4tcyk6jgx52y8fhhtjt6 (2) https://lists.apache.org/thread/2w5pdd4ncsc8s3qz0fbw2rkgy30ky4r6 From: Fleming, Jackson Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 1:06 To: dev@cassandra.apache.org Subject: Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors NetApp Sec

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

ally a > solution to this problem. > > Regards, > > Jackson > > From: Eric Evans > Date: Tuesday, 11 July 2023 at 4:14 am > To: dev@cassandra.apache.org > Subject: Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors > You don't often get email from john.eric.ev...@gmail.

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

Subject: Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors You don't often get email from john.eric.ev...@gmail.com. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or open attachments unle

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

On Sun, Jul 9, 2023 at 9:10 PM Dinesh Joshi wrote: > On Jul 8, 2023, at 8:43 AM, Miklosovic, Stefan < > stefan.mikloso...@netapp.com> wrote: > > > > If we are providing CQL / JSON / YAML for couple years, I do not believe > that the argument "lets not break it for folks in nodetool" is still >

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 10:20 AM Miklosovic, Stefan < stefan.mikloso...@netapp.com> wrote: > Hi list, > > I want to clarify the policy we have when we want to / going to change the > output of the tooling (nodetool or tools/bin etc.). > > I am not sure it is written somewhere explicitly, but how I

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

> On Jul 8, 2023, at 8:43 AM, Miklosovic, Stefan > wrote: > > If we are providing CQL / JSON / YAML for couple years, I do not believe that > the argument "lets not break it for folks in nodetool" is still relevant. CQL > output is there from times of 4.0 at least (at least!) and YAML / JSON

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

t;> output is too hot. There is basically like 15 at most commands for which the >> output matter because there is not their CQL equivalent or JSON / YAML >> output. >> >> If we are providing CQL / JSON / YAML for couple years, I do not believe >> that the argumen

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

t break it for folks in nodetool" is still relevant. CQL > output is there from times of 4.0 at least (at least!) and YAML / JSON is > also not something completely new. It is not like we are suddenly forcing > people to change their habits, there was enough time to update the stuff

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

lated to that if it is changed" in this particular case. From: Miklosovic, Stefan Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2023 17:43 To: dev Subject: Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors Thank you, Josh, for your insight. I think they should not parse t

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

e situation a little bit. (1) https://gist.github.com/smiklosovic/3f4ea8ccae53ad503af13c53789815be (2) https://gist.github.com/smiklosovic/f9a681016c22e2dfe88c883b6881cb7c ________ From: Josh McKenzie Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2023 14:47 To: dev Subject: Re: Changin

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

> Once there is, we are free to change the default output however we want. One thing I always try to keep in mind on discussions like this. A thought experiment (with very hand-wavy numbers; try not to get hung up on them): * Let's say there are 5,000 discrete "users" of C* out there (different

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 2:20 PM Miklosovic, Stefan wrote: > > Great thanks. That might work. > > So we do not change the default output unless there is json / yaml equivalent. > > Once there is, we are free to change the default output however we want. Yes, exactly. Then we have the best of both

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

@cassandra.apache.org Subject: Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 2:11 PM Miklosovic, Stefan wrote: > &g

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 2:11 PM Miklosovic, Stefan wrote: > > Yes, that is true, but the original, unfixed, output, is still there. Are we > OK with that? When we have a serialized output available, we do whatever we like to the display output.

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

-j" flag is just nice to have, just another way how to interpret the results. But you mean that we are not going to touch "someValue" output ever again? From: Brandon Williams Sent: Friday, July 7, 2023 21:05 To: dev@cassandra.apache.org Sub

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 2:02 PM Miklosovic, Stefan wrote: > > There is just no clear path how to improve that over time and exposing the > same output via different format is not really solving it ... the > discrepancies are still there. I'm not sure what you mean, can you explain? In my mind,

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

some proof this is happening in scale? From: Brandon Williams Sent: Friday, July 7, 2023 20:39 To: dev@cassandra.apache.org Subject: Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors NetApp Security WARNING: This is an external email. Do not click links or open attachme

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 10:21 AM Miklosovic, Stefan wrote: > > Anyway, the main question here is if we are OK to change the output in majors. I think we always want to strive for compatibility whenever possible. My personal litmus test is "can this information be obtained elsewhere?" and if the

Re: Changing the output of tooling between majors

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 10:21 AM Miklosovic, Stefan wrote: > If that is the case, we should start to treat this problem completely > differently and we should not rely on the output of tooling at all and we > should either provide corresponding JMX method to retrieve it or we should > offer

Changing the output of tooling between majors

Hi list, I want to clarify the policy we have when we want to / going to change the output of the tooling (nodetool or tools/bin etc.). I am not sure it is written somewhere explicitly, but how I get it from the gossip over years is that we should not change the output (e.g. changing the name