Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:22:26PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > [I posted to the Fedora Council list, but reposting here for wider > distribution.] Looks like Thursday at 4pm US/Eastern works best for most people (Everyone who responded but @pingou and @davdunc — sorry.) We’ll meet at https://meet.jit.si/fedora-matrix-brainstorm, unless jitsi can’t handle it, in which case we’ll fall back to https://bluejeans.com/u/mattdm I know there's some irony in doing a video meeting to discuss a text meeting, but irony isn't all bad. I'll make sure we take notes and post a summary. https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/council/2020/12/3/#m9867 -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 03:43:34PM +0100, Kamil Paral wrote: > - Create an account with some Matrix server, and join my favorite Fedora > channels from there? > - Or wait until some formal decision is reached and possibly the Fedora > Matrix server is available? I don't think it'll matter. > - Will there be any advantage in using the Fedora server over others? It should be faster, and have less latency to its own channels. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 02:49:54AM +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > As I understand it, the Matrix-IRC bridge is "bidirectional" in the sense > that it relays messages both ways, but not in the sense that an IRC user > would be able to connect to an arbitrary Matrix channel with an IRC client > the way it allows a Matrix user to connect to an arbitrary IRC channel with > a Matrix client. I don't think that will matter here, as we are intending to bridge all Fedora channels. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Mon, 2020-11-30 at 10:45 -0600, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 8:17 am, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > > - Will there be any advantage in using the Fedora server over > > > others? > > > > Not really I wouldn't think. Other I suppose than identifying you as a > > Fedora community member. > > No, there is a big advantage to using a Fedora server. matrix.org is > reportedly overloaded and slow. Eh. I've been using it for a week and it's fine. It takes a couple of seconds to update when I switch rooms, but it's no big deal. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha https://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 8:17 am, Kevin Fenzi wrote: - Will there be any advantage in using the Fedora server over others? Not really I wouldn't think. Other I suppose than identifying you as a Fedora community member. No, there is a big advantage to using a Fedora server. matrix.org is reportedly overloaded and slow. You'll have a better experience on a more responsive Fedora server hosted by Element (which also hosts the gnome.org server). The Matrix developers have been aware of this problem for a long time, but I guess it's hard to solve. Michael ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 03:43:34PM +0100, Kamil Paral wrote: > As someone who hates IRC with passion (including the necessity of > maintaining a znc instance and dealing with IRC authentication and network > issues from time to time) and would love to jump to a more modern solution > ASAP, what is the best course of action for me now? (ALl this is IMHO of course :) > - Create an account with some Matrix server, and join my favorite Fedora > channels from there? Yep. matrix.org is the big/popular one. > - Or wait until some formal decision is reached and possibly the Fedora > Matrix server is available? No telling when that will be and you can always make a new account there and switch once it exists. > - Will there be any advantage in using the Fedora server over others? Not really I wouldn't think. Other I suppose than identifying you as a Fedora community member. > - If not, do you have any recommendation which server to register at - are > there any differences between them, e.g. in stability or resposivity or > features? Probibly matrix.org is the best bet as they keep up on server versions and have the most users and run at least some of the freenode bridges. > - Can I already join all Fedora-related channels hosted on freenode, or > just some select ones? matrix.org has a bridge for all freenode channels. The rooms can be joined as '#freenode_#fedorawahatever:matrix.org". Additionally, we have bridges for some channels that bridge them directly to #fedorachannel:matrix.org. I think it's better to use the direct one if it exists, but it doesn't yet for all channels. > - Are there any difficulties with the Matrix-to-IRC bridge to be aware of? > For example do I still need to forward my IRC authentication somehow You can (and should) identify to freenode's nick server to get privs on the irc side of the bridge. Open a conversation from matrix with 'Nichserv on Freenode' and you can identify, etc. There's also a bot for the matrix <-> irc bridge that lets you change your nick on irc, etc. Open a matrix room and invite @appservice-irc:matrix.org to it. Thats the bridge bot. Send it '!help' to find out how to do things. > through Matrix? Or are modern chat features (like image editing or > reactions) also supported on those bridged channels? Or anything else? images on the irc side show up as links to the matrix server. (so the irc user sees it, but has to click on it and open in a web browser). Reactions don't go over the bridge at all. Redacting doesn't work over the bridge at all. > > Thanks for replies. kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
As someone who hates IRC with passion (including the necessity of maintaining a znc instance and dealing with IRC authentication and network issues from time to time) and would love to jump to a more modern solution ASAP, what is the best course of action for me now? - Create an account with some Matrix server, and join my favorite Fedora channels from there? - Or wait until some formal decision is reached and possibly the Fedora Matrix server is available? - Will there be any advantage in using the Fedora server over others? - If not, do you have any recommendation which server to register at - are there any differences between them, e.g. in stability or resposivity or features? - Can I already join all Fedora-related channels hosted on freenode, or just some select ones? - Are there any difficulties with the Matrix-to-IRC bridge to be aware of? For example do I still need to forward my IRC authentication somehow through Matrix? Or are modern chat features (like image editing or reactions) also supported on those bridged channels? Or anything else? Thanks for replies. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
Adam Williamson wrote: > The problem is that bridging to existing IRC channels severely dilutes > one of the main appeals of Matrix - being more welcoming to new users > familiar with modern chat system norms. Maybe the way to make everyone happy would be to bridge the other way round, i.e., an IRC bridge to native Matrix? It is possible to implement IRC bridges to more modern chat protocols in a way that also makes replaying of offline messages mostly work, see e.g. matterircd ( https://github.com/42wim/matterircd ) which does it for Mattermost and (with some limitations) for the proprietary Slack. The open question is whether there is a good enough implementation available for Matrix. For Matrix, matrix-ircd ( https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-ircd ) might be a solution, but I see several issues in https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-ircd/issues that sound like showstoppers to me (e.g., incomplete/broken support for private messages). So it will likely need improving or even rewriting. > We could still make it a bit easier for people to join some of our chats > initially, but a lot of IRC gumph is still *there* affecting you when you > just use Matrix-bridged-> to-IRC. Like rooms requiring you to be authed, > so you need to register with nickserv (plus you *also* have to learn how > to talk to nickserv over Matrix. This issue is pretty much of Fedora's own making though. It was a Fedora decision to make most of its chans +r, as a temporary spamfighting measure that has become permanent. Fixing this issue is just a matter of dropping the +r mode. > Of course, it also limits the extent to which the more modern features of > the system can be used. True. Kevin Kofler ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 11/27/20 5:49 PM, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: As I understand it, the Matrix-IRC bridge is "bidirectional" in the sense that it relays messages both ways, but not in the sense that an IRC user would be able to connect to an arbitrary Matrix channel with an IRC client the way it allows a Matrix user to connect to an arbitrary IRC channel with a Matrix client. Nope. Each individual Matrix user shows up as an individual IRC user. :) -- Erich Eickmeyer Maintainer Fedora Jam ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
Erich Eickmeyer wrote: > False. The bridges are bidirectional. As I understand it, the Matrix-IRC bridge is "bidirectional" in the sense that it relays messages both ways, but not in the sense that an IRC user would be able to connect to an arbitrary Matrix channel with an IRC client the way it allows a Matrix user to connect to an arbitrary IRC channel with a Matrix client. Kevin Kofler ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, 2020-11-27 at 13:53 +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Considering that Matrix can bridge to IRC channels and not the opposite, I > also think that moving to native Matrix mainly just degrades > interoperatibility. The problem is that bridging to existing IRC channels severely dilutes one of the main appeals of Matrix - being more welcoming to new users familiar with modern chat system norms. We could still make it a bit easier for people to join some of our chats initially, but a lot of IRC gumph is still *there* affecting you when you just use Matrix-bridged- to-IRC. Like rooms requiring you to be authed, so you need to register with nickserv (plus you *also* have to learn how to talk to nickserv over Matrix. Of course, it also limits the extent to which the more modern features of the system can be used. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha https://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 11/27/20 4:53 AM, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: Considering that Matrix can bridge to IRC channels and not the opposite, I also think that moving to native Matrix mainly just degrades interoperatibility. False. The bridges are bidirectional. -- Erich Eickmeyer Maintainer Fedora Jam ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
Matthew Miller wrote: > As mentioned, we're looking at moving the Fedora Council's main chat to > Matrix. And as part of that, we're considering a hosted Element server -- > which obviously could go quite beyond just #fedora-council. Neal suggested > a video meeting to talk with interested people about this, and so I set up > this when-is-good > >http://whenisgood.net/k5brwbd A video meeting about the future of text-based chatting strikes me as odd and absurd. IMHO, any changes to the IRC infrastructure ought to be discussed on IRC, not anywhere else. If only because that is the only way to actually have a reasonable chance of involving the actually affected people. Considering that Matrix can bridge to IRC channels and not the opposite, I also think that moving to native Matrix mainly just degrades interoperatibility. Kevin Kofler ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
Can we all stop talking about Discord? The Council is trying to update their communications platforms and the options were clearly stated: - Discourse (not Discord, please notice the difference in their names) replacing ML - Matrix replacing IRC. In both cases the Council is looking to keep all platforms bridged or somehow communicating with the new ones. In the particular case of this thread, Matrix has several advantages and IRC will still be keep it bridged, so from my POV we are gaining advantages and not losing anything. Br, Eduard Lucena ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 6:59 PM Adam Williamson wrote: > On Sat, 2020-11-21 at 12:01 +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 20.11.2020 19:52, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > > > Discord is in fact an amazing chat platform for the end user that > > > doesn't have a peer out there. > > > > 1. Proprietary software. The open source community should not use > > proprietary software as the official chat source. > > No-one suggested using it as the official chat source. > > > 2. Discord has the worst ToS[1] I've ever seen. > > 3. They don't have a public API and third party clients are prohibited. > > This is true, but doesn't really relate to the reasons discord was > mentioned in the first place. > What Adam said. I strongly suggest reading the context of my original message Vitaly. > -- > Adam Williamson > Fedora QA > IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha > http://www.happyassassin.net > > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Sat, 2020-11-21 at 12:01 +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 20.11.2020 19:52, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > > Discord is in fact an amazing chat platform for the end user that > > doesn't have a peer out there. > > 1. Proprietary software. The open source community should not use > proprietary software as the official chat source. No-one suggested using it as the official chat source. > 2. Discord has the worst ToS[1] I've ever seen. > 3. They don't have a public API and third party clients are prohibited. This is true, but doesn't really relate to the reasons discord was mentioned in the first place. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 20.11.2020 20:17, Jared K. Smith wrote: As I recall, it puts a small "(edited)" notice at the end of the line to let you know that it was edited. Yes. And if you click on it, you will see the complete difference. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 20.11.2020 19:52, Kevin Fenzi wrote: IMHO editing is fine, as long as it notes it was edited and provides you a way to see what was changed. I have no idea how the matrix editing works however. In the Matrix, you can see the complete differences for each edited message. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 20.11.2020 19:52, Radka Gustavsson wrote: Discord is in fact an amazing chat platform for the end user that doesn't have a peer out there. 1. Proprietary software. The open source community should not use proprietary software as the official chat source. 2. Discord has the worst ToS[1] I've ever seen. 3. They don't have a public API and third party clients are prohibited. [1]: https://discord.com/privacy -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 19/11/2020 19:17, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 1:09 PM Daniel Pocock wrote: >> >> >> >> On 19/11/2020 18:55, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: >>> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 06:50:21PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: On 19.11.2020 18:34, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, > "IRC-native" (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. > Contributors who prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and > won't really notice any difference. No, please. IRC bridges need to be closed to force users to switch to Matrix. >>> >>> "force"? You may have said the quiet bit aloud ... >> >> yes, it got my attention too >> >> I'm not going to give a firm recommendation for or against any platform >> but I'd like to make two suggestions: >> >> a) why not slow the process down and allow more ideas to come forward? >> There is no urgent need to change things in a month or whatever. >> >> b) it is really important to look at the organizational factors and not >> just the technical factors. Today, too many organizations allow their >> culture to be shaped by whatever tool is available. I'll refrain from >> giving examples of the disasters that follow. For any free software >> organization and any other type of organization too, it needs to be >> organization first, tool second. >> >> Maybe I will recommend a platform... >> > > The move to having our own Matrix server is being driven by Fedora > subcommunities already wanting to move primacy from IRC to Matrix. > Many of our adjunct upstreams have done so (Mozilla, KDE, etc.) or are > in the process of doing so (GNOME, openSUSE, etc.). > > The intent isn't to drop IRC as a gateway to these communities, and > indeed the Freenode IRC channels would remain bridged to the Fedora > Matrix server. > > To be blunt, we're struggling to get new folks to come talk to us on > IRC. Our largest user community is on Discord today, which eclipses > *everything* else by a wide margin. Next up is Telegram, which we have > been using somewhat for years through influence by the Russian Fedora > community who brought it to us in the first place. Neither of these > platforms are FOSS, and we want to provide a rich real-time > communications platform that is FOSS and open in many of the same ways > that IRC is. Matrix is open, federated, and gaining share in the > marketplace, making it a solid replacement for IRC. And unlike > alternatives, maintaining links to historical IRC channels with Matrix > rooms is easy and straightforward. > > We want to be approachable, and we want to be appealing. Right now, > our usage of IRC hurts us. The Matrix makeover can help smooth out > those issues without leaving behind the folks who prefer the IRC > interface. This aspect of using Matrix definitely lowers the risk Nonetheless, a lot of people still misrepresent Matrix as a fully federated or peer-to-peer solution when it isn't quite there yet. The Matrix developers clearly state[1] that the Identity Server concept is a work in progress. In its current form, that part of the platform is still somewhat centralized but better than an entirely closed platform. Overall, I still think there are higher level issues that go along with this. For example, some of the work I've done around iCalendar and task lists is intended to encourage people to think about how they manage their time on these platforms and ensure the right people are in the right call/chat session at the same time to make decisions together. I know that sounds quite basic but it doesn't always happen. It is not always about which tool people are using, sometimes organizations are just not managing calendars in an efficient manner. Regards, Daniel 1. https://matrix.org/faq/#can-i-run-my-own-identity-server%3F ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Friday, November 20, 2020 11:52:46 AM MST Radka Gustavsson wrote: > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 6:03 PM John M. Harris Jr > > wrote: > > On Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:17:15 AM MST Neal Gompa wrote: > > > The move to having our own Matrix server is being driven by Fedora > > > subcommunities already wanting to move primacy from IRC to Matrix. > > > Many of our adjunct upstreams have done so (Mozilla, KDE, etc.) or are > > > in the process of doing so (GNOME, openSUSE, etc.). > > > > > > The intent isn't to drop IRC as a gateway to these communities, and > > > indeed the Freenode IRC channels would remain bridged to the Fedora > > > Matrix server. > > > > > > To be blunt, we're struggling to get new folks to come talk to us on > > > IRC. > > > > Has this been documented anywhere? If so, we can likely review these > > issues, > > and see what would need to be done to solve this problem, if there is one. > > > > > Our largest user community is on Discord today, which eclipses > > > *everything* else by a wide margin. > > > > It's worth questioning whether those folks are actually Fedora uses, or > > people > > who are just a bit interested in Fedora. Given that the use of proprietary > > software, where a superior Free alternative exists, is against the Four > > Foundations, it's questionable that they'd be Discord users. > > I manage the place we're talking about so I can tell you all about it. Many > open source lovers use Discord. Quite a few became Fedora contributors > through our Discord community as well. Perhaps you shouldn't judge without > ever participating. People aren't automatically bad or whatever just > because they don't mind using proprietary software when its benefits far > outweigh the downsides and when it enables them to work at their peak > efficiency. I never said that anyone was "bad or whatever" for using proprietary software. I'm not going to get much further into this, because I don't want this to become another pile-on, but Discord is hardly the most efficient chat option. I've seen videos of its use, and we have Free Software that meets and exceeds the needs that Discord also offers a solution to. > Discord is in fact an amazing chat platform for the end user that doesn't > have a peer out there. (I could talk for hours about its flaws, but the end > user won't notice or realise most of them.) You're extremely wrong in > saying that there is a "superior" libre alternative. There isn't, nowhere > near. If there was, it would have been popular and not Discord. Those > masses chose it for its features and ease of use. It allows people to do > whatever they want and doesn't disable anyone, regardless how "out there" > their requirements may be. We're just going to have to disagree on that one. I look forward to hearing about the new hotness in a few more years. > Our Discord community is not "against the Four Foundations" like you say. I didn't say that it was. This has been clarified by the Council at this point, it's not an official communication platform, it's just treated as a social media account. > It definitely hits 3/4 - Features Friends and First, and by proxy, by > enabling people to reach Fedora contributors easier, it also enables the > FREE in the end, by further contribution from the members. I could easily > turn your logic against IRC - it's definitely not First to introduce new > Features and because of it, it doesn't bring Friends together anymore. All > it's got really going for it is the FREE. Discord is not Free Software. In this context, Free refers not to price, but to freedom. Libre, not gratis. -- John M. Harris, Jr. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 2:00 PM Kevin Fenzi wrote: > IMHO editing is fine, as long as it notes it was edited and provides you > a way to see what was changed. I have no idea how the matrix editing > works however. > As I recall, it puts a small "(edited)" notice at the end of the line to let you know that it was edited. -Jared ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 7:56 PM Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:27:08AM +0100, Marius Schwarz wrote: > > Am 19.11.20 um 21:13 schrieb José Abílio Matos: > > > > > > On Thursday, November 19, 2020 5:54:52 PM WET Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > > > > > > I'm not sure that message editing is a feature. > > > > > > > > > In fairness as long as the grace period is fixed and small that is not > a > > > bad thing. > > > > > > E.g it allows you to fix lots of cases where you found that the message > > > was incomplete after sending it or it had incorrect information that > you > > > only found after sending it. > > > > > > > > > That allows to clean some noise and it is not a bad thing. :-) > > > > Just imagine to fix a typo in a cmd you gave as advise.. it's very > usefull. > > Sure, but also imagine: > > usera: "Hey everyone, say yea, Fedora is great!" > userb: "yea!" > userc: "yea!" > usera "Say yea if you love osx!" > > IMHO editing is fine, as long as it notes it was edited and provides you > a way to see what was changed. I have no idea how the matrix editing > works however. > That's what moderators are for who can see edits. But even then, in so many years on Discord, never had that problem in any of the many and large communities that I manage. Users know that they get in trouble if they try to do such things. > > kevin > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 6:03 PM John M. Harris Jr wrote: > On Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:17:15 AM MST Neal Gompa wrote: > > The move to having our own Matrix server is being driven by Fedora > > subcommunities already wanting to move primacy from IRC to Matrix. > > Many of our adjunct upstreams have done so (Mozilla, KDE, etc.) or are > > in the process of doing so (GNOME, openSUSE, etc.). > > > > The intent isn't to drop IRC as a gateway to these communities, and > > indeed the Freenode IRC channels would remain bridged to the Fedora > > Matrix server. > > > > To be blunt, we're struggling to get new folks to come talk to us on > > IRC. > > Has this been documented anywhere? If so, we can likely review these > issues, > and see what would need to be done to solve this problem, if there is one. > > > Our largest user community is on Discord today, which eclipses > > *everything* else by a wide margin. > > It's worth questioning whether those folks are actually Fedora uses, or > people > who are just a bit interested in Fedora. Given that the use of proprietary > software, where a superior Free alternative exists, is against the Four > Foundations, it's questionable that they'd be Discord users. > I manage the place we're talking about so I can tell you all about it. Many open source lovers use Discord. Quite a few became Fedora contributors through our Discord community as well. Perhaps you shouldn't judge without ever participating. People aren't automatically bad or whatever just because they don't mind using proprietary software when its benefits far outweigh the downsides and when it enables them to work at their peak efficiency. Discord is in fact an amazing chat platform for the end user that doesn't have a peer out there. (I could talk for hours about its flaws, but the end user won't notice or realise most of them.) You're extremely wrong in saying that there is a "superior" libre alternative. There isn't, nowhere near. If there was, it would have been popular and not Discord. Those masses chose it for its features and ease of use. It allows people to do whatever they want and doesn't disable anyone, regardless how "out there" their requirements may be. Our Discord community is not "against the Four Foundations" like you say. It definitely hits 3/4 - Features Friends and First, and by proxy, by enabling people to reach Fedora contributors easier, it also enables the FREE in the end, by further contribution from the members. I could easily turn your logic against IRC - it's definitely not First to introduce new Features and because of it, it doesn't bring Friends together anymore. All it's got really going for it is the FREE. > > > Next up is Telegram, which we have > > been using somewhat for years through influence by the Russian Fedora > > community who brought it to us in the first place. Neither of these > > platforms are FOSS, and we want to provide a rich real-time > > communications platform that is FOSS and open in many of the same ways > > that IRC is. Matrix is open, federated, and gaining share in the > > marketplace, making it a solid replacement for IRC. And unlike > > alternatives, maintaining links to historical IRC channels with Matrix > > rooms is easy and straightforward. > > > > We want to be approachable, and we want to be appealing. Right now, > > our usage of IRC hurts us. > > If Matrix bridges so well with IRC, and many upstream communities are > using it > already, surely they could just join our channels through their bridges? > > -- > John M. Harris, Jr. > Splentity > > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:27:08AM +0100, Marius Schwarz wrote: > Am 19.11.20 um 21:13 schrieb José Abílio Matos: > > > > On Thursday, November 19, 2020 5:54:52 PM WET Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure that message editing is a feature. > > > > > > In fairness as long as the grace period is fixed and small that is not a > > bad thing. > > > > E.g it allows you to fix lots of cases where you found that the message > > was incomplete after sending it or it had incorrect information that you > > only found after sending it. > > > > > > That allows to clean some noise and it is not a bad thing. :-) > > Just imagine to fix a typo in a cmd you gave as advise.. it's very usefull. Sure, but also imagine: usera: "Hey everyone, say yea, Fedora is great!" userb: "yea!" userc: "yea!" usera "Say yea if you love osx!" IMHO editing is fine, as long as it notes it was edited and provides you a way to see what was changed. I have no idea how the matrix editing works however. kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, 2020-11-20 at 09:14 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2020-11-20 at 08:32 -0500, Simo Sorce wrote: > > On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 23:14 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:06:46AM +0100, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > > > wrote: > > > > > > No, you don't. I've just joined a random room without any kind of > > > > > > registration. Try it yourself if you don't believe me: > > > > > > https://app.element.io/#/room/#lounge:privacytools.io > > > > > You are able to view it but are you able to participate? If not, you > > > > > haven't joined > > > > I know the difference and yes, you're able to participate without > > > > registration in that room. > > > > > > When I view this room in a private browser window, I can see the > > > conversation, but at the bottom, it says "Join the conversation with an > > > account" and presents "Sign In" / "Sign Up" buttons. > > > > Good for you, this is what I got: > > > >Failed to start > >Your Element is misconfigured > > > >Invalid homeserver discovery response > > > > Sounds like if you already are a user it works, otherwise not > > Are you using a blocker like uMatrix? If so that's likely the issue. > element.io uses a ton of elements from matrix.org, and if those are > blocked, that's the error you get. No blockers no this machine, but after a few reloads it started working, not sure what was the cause. Possibly a bad reaction at not finding any cookie at all (given it was the first time I ever logged on element.io properties). I've seen race conditions like that before on sites that sprawl requests across multiple properties and expect a consistent view. Simo. > -- > Adam Williamson > Fedora QA Community Monkey > IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net > http://www.happyassassin.net > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org -- Simo Sorce RHEL Crypto Team Red Hat, Inc ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, 2020-11-20 at 08:32 -0500, Simo Sorce wrote: > On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 23:14 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:06:46AM +0100, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > > wrote: > > > > > No, you don't. I've just joined a random room without any kind of > > > > > registration. Try it yourself if you don't believe me: > > > > > https://app.element.io/#/room/#lounge:privacytools.io > > > > You are able to view it but are you able to participate? If not, you > > > > haven't joined > > > I know the difference and yes, you're able to participate without > > > registration in that room. > > > > When I view this room in a private browser window, I can see the > > conversation, but at the bottom, it says "Join the conversation with an > > account" and presents "Sign In" / "Sign Up" buttons. > > Good for you, this is what I got: > > Failed to start > Your Element is misconfigured > > Invalid homeserver discovery response > > Sounds like if you already are a user it works, otherwise not Are you using a blocker like uMatrix? If so that's likely the issue. element.io uses a ton of elements from matrix.org, and if those are blocked, that's the error you get. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 20.11.2020 17:59, John M. Harris Jr wrote: Given that the use of proprietary software, where a superior Free alternative exists, is against the Four Foundations, it's questionable that they'd be Discord users. Discord also has the worst terms of service I've ever seen. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, 2020-11-20 at 11:19 +0100, Marius Schwarz wrote: > Am 19.11.20 um 23:42 schrieb Adam Williamson: > > The chat history persistence - and seamless use across devices - is a > > huge advantage. The other advantage is that you can sign up for and use > > this system simply and entirely in a web browser, a process people are > > comfortable with. It is similar to systems they may well already be > > familiar with, like Slack and Discord. People are not comfortable with > Discord is the best example on how to not have an age old history. If > you have joined only one of those, you get blinded by blinking > emotiocons, animgifs etc. > > That is the opposite of helpful while discussing important things. In a > Hello Kitty context, as entertainment, it may have it's usecase for > those impacted. *shrug* I disagree. I'm on quite a few discord servers and I enjoy it. Reactions, in particular, are super useful because they let people do simple stuff like registering amusement or agreement with something without having to actually send a message themselves. It is also useful for keeping up with the zoomers. We're all going to be yelling at clouds some day, but I like to try and delay it as much as possible. :P (also note there's nothing stopping people sending emoticons over IRC, at least if the server and client both support UTF-8...) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:17:15 AM MST Neal Gompa wrote: > The move to having our own Matrix server is being driven by Fedora > subcommunities already wanting to move primacy from IRC to Matrix. > Many of our adjunct upstreams have done so (Mozilla, KDE, etc.) or are > in the process of doing so (GNOME, openSUSE, etc.). > > The intent isn't to drop IRC as a gateway to these communities, and > indeed the Freenode IRC channels would remain bridged to the Fedora > Matrix server. > > To be blunt, we're struggling to get new folks to come talk to us on > IRC. Has this been documented anywhere? If so, we can likely review these issues, and see what would need to be done to solve this problem, if there is one. > Our largest user community is on Discord today, which eclipses > *everything* else by a wide margin. It's worth questioning whether those folks are actually Fedora uses, or people who are just a bit interested in Fedora. Given that the use of proprietary software, where a superior Free alternative exists, is against the Four Foundations, it's questionable that they'd be Discord users. > Next up is Telegram, which we have > been using somewhat for years through influence by the Russian Fedora > community who brought it to us in the first place. Neither of these > platforms are FOSS, and we want to provide a rich real-time > communications platform that is FOSS and open in many of the same ways > that IRC is. Matrix is open, federated, and gaining share in the > marketplace, making it a solid replacement for IRC. And unlike > alternatives, maintaining links to historical IRC channels with Matrix > rooms is easy and straightforward. > > We want to be approachable, and we want to be appealing. Right now, > our usage of IRC hurts us. If Matrix bridges so well with IRC, and many upstream communities are using it already, surely they could just join our channels through their bridges? -- John M. Harris, Jr. Splentity ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thursday, November 19, 2020 10:34:28 AM MST Radka Gustavsson wrote: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 6:11 PM Richard W.M. Jones > > wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:22:26PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > [I posted to the Fedora Council list, but reposting here for wider > > > distribution.] > > > > > > As mentioned, we're looking at moving the Fedora Council's main chat to > > > Matrix. And as part of that, we're considering a hosted Element server > > > -- > > > which obviously could go quite beyond just #fedora-council. Neal > > > > suggested a > > > > > video meeting to talk with interested people about this, and so I set up > > > this when-is-good > > > > > >http://whenisgood.net/k5brwbd > > > > > > Anyone interested in a preliminary chat about all of this, please sign > > > up > > > with your FAS id and availability. Nothing is sent in stone or decided > > > already, although I must say I'm pretty excited about Element's open > > > > source > > > > > software-as-a-service offering based on what I've heard from them so > > > far. > > > > There's quite a lot wrong here - a video meeting(!) to discuss > > dropping a commonly used and well established channel of > > communication. Well, I guess at least you didn't decide to use the > > proprietary awfulness of Slack. > > Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, "IRC-native" > (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. Contributors who > prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and won't really notice any > difference. > > > Couldn't you just talk about this on email? > > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/the-future-of-real-time-chat-discussi > on-for-the-fedora-council/24628 > > Let me start off: > > > > What's the reason why hosting your own server for a fairly uncommon > > chat protocol is better than continuing to use IRC? > > I too love dinosaurs... but I also work on 4 different computers and two > mobile devices every day. Having to literally switch hardware to > participate in IRC meetings is pain in the ass for some of our contributors > (myself included.) Have you considered using a bouncer, similar software or weechat/irssi, such that you don't have to switch hardware? This kind of software has become much easier to use these days, and there are many services available with web based options if you are uncomfortable with configuring software yourself. -- John M. Harris, Jr. Splentity ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 20.11.2020 17:18, Matthew Miller wrote: Yes, I don't see why not. As I understand it, if your server becomes a source of spam or whatever, we can block it. But I trust that it won't. Public registration is disabled on it. Only me and my friends can use it. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 08:44:32AM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > >In this case for our server, we would use FAS single-sign-on for > >accounts. > But this server should support Matrix federation feature. We > shouldn't force users to use only this server in order to be able to > participate in discussions. I already have my own Matrix server. Yes, I don't see why not. As I understand it, if your server becomes a source of spam or whatever, we can block it. But I trust that it won't. :) -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 23:14 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:06:46AM +0100, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > wrote: > > > > No, you don't. I've just joined a random room without any kind of > > > > registration. Try it yourself if you don't believe me: > > > > https://app.element.io/#/room/#lounge:privacytools.io > > > You are able to view it but are you able to participate? If not, you > > > haven't joined > > I know the difference and yes, you're able to participate without > > registration in that room. > > When I view this room in a private browser window, I can see the > conversation, but at the bottom, it says "Join the conversation with an > account" and presents "Sign In" / "Sign Up" buttons. Good for you, this is what I got: Failed to start Your Element is misconfigured Invalid homeserver discovery response Sounds like if you already are a user it works, otherwise not -- Simo Sorce RHEL Crypto Team Red Hat, Inc ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 20.11.2020 10:46, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: How does a server become federated? You need to open port 8448/tcp and add an SRV DNS record: _matrix._tcp.example.org. 3600 IN SRV 10 0 8448 example.org. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
Am 19.11.20 um 21:13 schrieb José Abílio Matos: On Thursday, November 19, 2020 5:54:52 PM WET Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > I'm not sure that message editing is a feature. In fairness as long as the grace period is fixed and small that is not a bad thing. E.g it allows you to fix lots of cases where you found that the message was incomplete after sending it or it had incorrect information that you only found after sending it. That allows to clean some noise and it is not a bad thing. :-) -- Just imagine to fix a typo in a cmd you gave as advise.. it's very usefull. Best regards, Marius ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
Am 19.11.20 um 23:42 schrieb Adam Williamson: The chat history persistence - and seamless use across devices - is a huge advantage. The other advantage is that you can sign up for and use this system simply and entirely in a web browser, a process people are comfortable with. It is similar to systems they may well already be familiar with, like Slack and Discord. People are not comfortable with Discord is the best example on how to not have an age old history. If you have joined only one of those, you get blinded by blinking emotiocons, animgifs etc. That is the opposite of helpful while discussing important things. In a Hello Kitty context, as entertainment, it may have it's usecase for those impacted. It would be helpful, if the serveradmin hosting a matrix room can deactivate those useless distractions. best regards, Marius Schwarz ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Friday, 20 November 2020 at 08:41, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 20.11.2020 02:06, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > I know the difference and yes, you're able to participate without > > registration in that room. > > There are free levels of privacy settings: > 1. join via invitation; > 2. public group with guests; > 3. public room without guests. So, just like IRC. IRC also has invite-only channels with or without guests. > Most of rooms keep guests feature disabled due to spam attacks. You will > need a Matrix account on any federated server to be able to join. How does a server become federated? Is setting up synapse service and specifying a domain name in its config all[1]? If yes, does that mean anyone can set up a server and will be joined automatically to the existing network? I tried searching the documentation, but I couldn't find anything about how malicious homeservers are treated. [1] https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/blob/master/docs/federate.md Regards, Dominik -- Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPM Fusion http://rpmfusion.org There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression to develop psychic muscles. -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 19.11.2020 23:11, Michael Catanzaro wrote: Enjoy: https://github.com/matrix-org/purple-matrix/ I suggest not using purple-matrix as it doesn't support most of the protocol features such as quotes, replies, message editing, etc. due to libpurple's internal limitations (immutable history). -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 19.11.2020 23:55, Matthew Miller wrote: In this case for our server, we would use FAS single-sign-on for accounts. But this server should support Matrix federation feature. We shouldn't force users to use only this server in order to be able to participate in discussions. I already have my own Matrix server. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 20.11.2020 02:06, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: I know the difference and yes, you're able to participate without registration in that room. There are free levels of privacy settings: 1. join via invitation; 2. public group with guests; 3. public room without guests. Most of rooms keep guests feature disabled due to spam attacks. You will need a Matrix account on any federated server to be able to join. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 20.11.2020 05:14, Matthew Miller wrote: When I view this room in a private browser window, I can see the conversation, but at the bottom, it says "Join the conversation with an account" and presents "Sign In" / "Sign Up" buttons. In the room settings, admins can enable or disable guests (users without Matrix accounts). Most of rooms keep this feature disabled due to spam attacks. If the user has a Matrix account on server A, they can easily join the room on server B, and the room will be copied with the full history to their server. The distributed Matrix rooms are a huge advantage of the Matrix protocol. They will cannot be censored or destroyed due to server outages. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
I'm not going to give a firm recommendation for or against any platform but I'd like to make two suggestions: a) why not slow the process down and allow more ideas to come forward? There is no urgent need to change things in a month or whatever. This is a reasonable suggestion. Since one can bridge Matrix and IRC it is possible for different IRC channels to try it out. The ability to bridge Matrix really helps since one does not need to install another client for each new group conversation. One worry with Matrix is that the core protocol has less of a structured development and ratification process than IRC [1] or XMPP [2], so long term use is unclear. b) it is really important to look at the organizational factors and not just the technical factors. Today, too many organizations allow their culture to be shaped by whatever tool is available. I'll refrain from giving examples of the disasters that follow. For any free software organization and any other type of organization too, it needs to be organization first, tool second. This is a good point. As has been pointed out, the desktop clients need some work, and at present nothing with performance of the Telegram client[3]. There are also a number of different implementations of the server to consider [4],[5],[6] [1] https://ircv3.net/irc/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP [3] https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop [4] https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/08/dendrite-is-entering-beta [5] https://gitlab.com/mascarene/mascarene [6] https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:06:46AM +0100, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > > No, you don't. I've just joined a random room without any kind of > > > registration. Try it yourself if you don't believe me: > > > https://app.element.io/#/room/#lounge:privacytools.io > > You are able to view it but are you able to participate? If not, you > > haven't joined > I know the difference and yes, you're able to participate without > registration in that room. When I view this room in a private browser window, I can see the conversation, but at the bottom, it says "Join the conversation with an account" and presents "Sign In" / "Sign Up" buttons. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Friday, 20 November 2020 at 02:01, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 7:56 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > > > No, you don't. I've just joined a random room without any kind of > > registration. Try it yourself if you don't believe me: > > https://app.element.io/#/room/#lounge:privacytools.io > > You are able to view it but are you able to participate? If not, you > haven't joined I know the difference and yes, you're able to participate without registration in that room. Regards, Dominik -- Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPM Fusion http://rpmfusion.org There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression to develop psychic muscles. -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
Hi On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 7:56 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > No, you don't. I've just joined a random room without any kind of > registration. Try it yourself if you don't believe me: > https://app.element.io/#/room/#lounge:privacytools.io > You are able to view it but are you able to participate? If not, you haven't joined Rahul ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thursday, 19 November 2020 at 23:52, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:37 pm, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > wrote: > > Instead of channels, you have rooms and users can be either > > unregistered or registered, just like on IRC. > > No, you have to register. No, you don't. I've just joined a random room without any kind of registration. Try it yourself if you don't believe me: https://app.element.io/#/room/#lounge:privacytools.io Regards, Dominik -- Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPM Fusion http://rpmfusion.org There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression to develop psychic muscles. -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
Elliott Sales de Andrade writes: >> > I honestly can see exactly zero downsides to using a Matrix setup as >> > compared to using IRC, and a giant pile of upsides, starting with "I no >> > longer need to dedicate a small portion of my brain to remembering how >> > my IRC bouncer setup works and maintaining it". >> >> Well my experience when I looked at matrix desktop clients >> before was that they needed more screen real estate to be >> usable than IRC clients, which is certainly one downside and >> probably a direct consequence of rich media support. >> >> There's also the fact that unless I can get it to talk to all >> the same chat systems I have pidgin talking to I would need to >> be running two clients instead of one. >> > > I don't know if it's packaged and can't speak to its quality, but > there exists a protocol plugin to use Matrix in Pidgin: > https://github.com/matrix-org/purple-matrix/#readme > I have used purple-matrix and purple-discord from the repos for a while and they work pretty well. But I eventually stopped using them, as all pidgin plugins suffer from the same issue: they have to stuff a pretty rich chat experience into a client that was designed for IRC. I.e. threading, replies, reactions, edits, history have to get emulated in (imho) suboptimal ways. Both plugins were very good given these constraints, but running Element.io & Discord in a browser tab or in Ferdi eventually turned out to work better for me. But YMMW. Cheers, Dan signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 14:44, Tom Hughes via devel wrote: > > On 19/11/2020 19:25, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > I mean, I'm an old fogey too, but at *some* point we do have to accept > > that new things can be actively better. > > True. > > > I honestly can see exactly zero downsides to using a Matrix setup as > > compared to using IRC, and a giant pile of upsides, starting with "I no > > longer need to dedicate a small portion of my brain to remembering how > > my IRC bouncer setup works and maintaining it". > > Well my experience when I looked at matrix desktop clients > before was that they needed more screen real estate to be > usable than IRC clients, which is certainly one downside and > probably a direct consequence of rich media support. > > There's also the fact that unless I can get it to talk to all > the same chat systems I have pidgin talking to I would need to > be running two clients instead of one. > I don't know if it's packaged and can't speak to its quality, but there exists a protocol plugin to use Matrix in Pidgin: https://github.com/matrix-org/purple-matrix/#readme > I am interested though, and did actually explore the idea of > running my own home server and what I could bridge it to (so > not that different to running my own bouncer now...) recently. > > Anyway I just looked at the three clients that were suggested > earlier - all three are using Qt which makes them virtually > unusable on a wayland/gnome desktop as far as I can see as the > resize handles are so small they're impossible to use. > > More amusingly one of them crashed as soon as I logged in and > a second went into a "your window is too small mode" as soon > as I resized it to match my IRC client. > > The third was better, but rendered the conversation in that > left/right style of SMS clients, which is horrible for a chat > room. > > No doubt there are others I can try... > > Tom > -- Elliott ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 5:55 PM Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 04:52:56PM -0600, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > > wrote: > > > Instead of channels, you have rooms and users can be either > > >unregistered or registered, just like on IRC. > > No, you have to register. > > In this case for our server, we would use FAS single-sign-on for > accounts. > However, that would not prohibit folks from visiting rooms on our server from other Matrix servers, as the federation aspect would permit that. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 04:52:56PM -0600, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > wrote: > > Instead of channels, you have rooms and users can be either > >unregistered or registered, just like on IRC. > No, you have to register. In this case for our server, we would use FAS single-sign-on for accounts. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:37 pm, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: Instead of channels, you have rooms and users can be either unregistered or registered, just like on IRC. No, you have to register. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 23:37 +0100, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Thursday, 19 November 2020 at 21:46, Erich Eickmeyer wrote: > > On 11/19/20 12:32 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > > I don't know how Matrix works exactly... > > Then I suggest educating yourself. Go to element.io and check it out. > > So I did and it's not that different from IRC from an end-user > perspective. Instead of channels, you have rooms and users can be either > unregistered or registered, just like on IRC. Rooms can be public or only > for registered users, same as on IRC. The only user-visible difference > I found so far is the chat history persistence. This can be either good > or bad, depending on your point of view. So... I don't really see the > advantage here. The chat history persistence - and seamless use across devices - is a huge advantage. The other advantage is that you can sign up for and use this system simply and entirely in a web browser, a process people are comfortable with. It is similar to systems they may well already be familiar with, like Slack and Discord. People are not comfortable with setting up IRC and learning to use nickserv. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:37:05PM +0100, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > Oh and it's extremely slow compared to IRC. The federation you mean, or in general? It is true that the free matrix.org can get overwhelmed; this is one of the reasons for having our own server. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thursday, 19 November 2020 at 21:46, Erich Eickmeyer wrote: > On 11/19/20 12:32 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > I don't know how Matrix works exactly... > Then I suggest educating yourself. Go to element.io and check it out. So I did and it's not that different from IRC from an end-user perspective. Instead of channels, you have rooms and users can be either unregistered or registered, just like on IRC. Rooms can be public or only for registered users, same as on IRC. The only user-visible difference I found so far is the chat history persistence. This can be either good or bad, depending on your point of view. So... I don't really see the advantage here. Oh and it's extremely slow compared to IRC. > If you don't know what it is or how it works, then why chime-in? That adds > nothing to the conversation if you don't know what you're talking about. I used the information provided by other participants in this thread, assuming they were factually correct. Was I mistaken? Regards, Dominik -- Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPM Fusion http://rpmfusion.org There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression to develop psychic muscles. -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:22:26PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: >http://whenisgood.net/k5brwbd FWIW so far tomorrow and next week are (not surprisingly given the US holidays) much less popular than the week of November 30, so let's continue the discussion here and on the Discourse thread. https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/the-future-of-real-time-chat-discussion-for-the-fedora-council/24628 -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 7:43 pm, Tom Hughes via devel wrote: There's also the fact that unless I can get it to talk to all the same chat systems I have pidgin talking to I would need to be running two clients instead of one. Enjoy: https://github.com/matrix-org/purple-matrix/ ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 11/19/20 12:32 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: I don't know how Matrix works exactly... Then I suggest educating yourself. Go to element.io and check it out. If you don't know what it is or how it works, then why chime-in? That adds nothing to the conversation if you don't know what you're talking about. -- Erich Eickmeyer Maintainer Fedora Jam ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thursday, 19 November 2020 at 19:47, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 19.11.2020 19:31, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > Just like IRC. > > No. If the FreeNode network goes down, all Fedora IRC chats will > disappear. Network consists of multiple servers. They'd all have to go down. At the time of this writing, there are 5 IPv4 and 3 IPv6 addresses under chat.freenode.net. > In Matrix if one server will stop working, users can easily switch to > another and continue chatting. Just like IRC. > All messages will be saved. Lack of server-side message persistence is a feature of IRC. Granted, that might not be what many new users want. > Also users from the other Matrix servers (matrix.org or self-hosted) > can join without any registration. Federated network. I don't know how Matrix works exactly, but I doubt anyone can join without any authorization. That would be abused pretty quickly. Regards, Dominik -- Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPM Fusion http://rpmfusion.org There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression to develop psychic muscles. -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thursday, November 19, 2020 5:54:52 PM WET Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > I'm not sure that message editing is a feature. In fairness as long as the grace period is fixed and small that is not a bad thing. E.g it allows you to fix lots of cases where you found that the message was incomplete after sending it or it had incorrect information that you only found after sending it. That allows to clean some noise and it is not a bad thing. :-) -- José Abílio___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 08:00:24PM +, Tom Hughes via devel wrote: > On 19/11/2020 19:49, Neal Gompa wrote: > > > The GNOME-based one is Fractal, which is not available in Fedora as of > > right now. That said, the Qt based ones are in way better shape than > > the GNOME one. And QGnomePlatform should make them work reasonably > > well... > > My problem, at least on this hidpi laptop, is that the bit of the > window edge that I need to grab to resize it is only about one pixel > wide so virtually impossible to grab. Native gnome windows have a > much wider area I can grab. > > It might be better on my desktop that isn't hidpi and has a mouse > instead of a trackpad. You don't have to grab by the edge to resize, GNOME has useful features: - winkey+left mouse button inside the window let you move it (no need to target header bar) - winkey+middle mouse button inside window let you resize closest edge This unfortunately breaks in two cases: - you have scroll emulation enabled on middle button+trackpoint; or - you don't have middle button on your laptop :( -- Tomasz TorczOnly gods can safely risk perfection, to...@pipebreaker.pl it's a dangerous thing for a man. — Alia ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 19/11/2020 19:49, Neal Gompa wrote: The GNOME-based one is Fractal, which is not available in Fedora as of right now. That said, the Qt based ones are in way better shape than the GNOME one. And QGnomePlatform should make them work reasonably well... My problem, at least on this hidpi laptop, is that the bit of the window edge that I need to grab to resize it is only about one pixel wide so virtually impossible to grab. Native gnome windows have a much wider area I can grab. It might be better on my desktop that isn't hidpi and has a mouse instead of a trackpad. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 19:43 +, Tom Hughes via devel wrote: > > No doubt there are others I can try... https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Fractal -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 2:44 PM Tom Hughes via devel wrote: > > On 19/11/2020 19:25, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > I mean, I'm an old fogey too, but at *some* point we do have to accept > > that new things can be actively better. > > True. > > > I honestly can see exactly zero downsides to using a Matrix setup as > > compared to using IRC, and a giant pile of upsides, starting with "I no > > longer need to dedicate a small portion of my brain to remembering how > > my IRC bouncer setup works and maintaining it". > > Well my experience when I looked at matrix desktop clients > before was that they needed more screen real estate to be > usable than IRC clients, which is certainly one downside and > probably a direct consequence of rich media support. > > There's also the fact that unless I can get it to talk to all > the same chat systems I have pidgin talking to I would need to > be running two clients instead of one. > > I am interested though, and did actually explore the idea of > running my own home server and what I could bridge it to (so > not that different to running my own bouncer now...) recently. > > Anyway I just looked at the three clients that were suggested > earlier - all three are using Qt which makes them virtually > unusable on a wayland/gnome desktop as far as I can see as the > resize handles are so small they're impossible to use. > > More amusingly one of them crashed as soon as I logged in and > a second went into a "your window is too small mode" as soon > as I resized it to match my IRC client. > > The third was better, but rendered the conversation in that > left/right style of SMS clients, which is horrible for a chat > room. > > No doubt there are others I can try... > The GNOME-based one is Fractal, which is not available in Fedora as of right now. That said, the Qt based ones are in way better shape than the GNOME one. And QGnomePlatform should make them work reasonably well... -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 19/11/2020 19:25, Adam Williamson wrote: I mean, I'm an old fogey too, but at *some* point we do have to accept that new things can be actively better. True. I honestly can see exactly zero downsides to using a Matrix setup as compared to using IRC, and a giant pile of upsides, starting with "I no longer need to dedicate a small portion of my brain to remembering how my IRC bouncer setup works and maintaining it". Well my experience when I looked at matrix desktop clients before was that they needed more screen real estate to be usable than IRC clients, which is certainly one downside and probably a direct consequence of rich media support. There's also the fact that unless I can get it to talk to all the same chat systems I have pidgin talking to I would need to be running two clients instead of one. I am interested though, and did actually explore the idea of running my own home server and what I could bridge it to (so not that different to running my own bouncer now...) recently. Anyway I just looked at the three clients that were suggested earlier - all three are using Qt which makes them virtually unusable on a wayland/gnome desktop as far as I can see as the resize handles are so small they're impossible to use. More amusingly one of them crashed as soon as I logged in and a second went into a "your window is too small mode" as soon as I resized it to match my IRC client. The third was better, but rendered the conversation in that left/right style of SMS clients, which is horrible for a chat room. No doubt there are others I can try... Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 14:25, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 14:15 -0500, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > > My apologies for that misinformation. While a federated chat system is a > > network of servers for people being social, I should not tie them in the > > same crappile as Social Networks where my logins and engagement are > > measured and sold. > > > > Open source is good, but it is still yet another distraction that I have > to > > learn > > a) which tool I need to add as a screen to watch things > > b) how to shut up from pinging me with 'blah mentioned you!', etc. > > c) avoid spending hours looking at it as something to do versus work. > > I mean, I'm an old fogey too, but at *some* point we do have to accept > that new things can be actively better. > > I honestly can see exactly zero downsides to using a Matrix setup as > compared to using IRC, and a giant pile of upsides, starting with "I no > longer need to dedicate a small portion of my brain to remembering how > my IRC bouncer setup works and maintaining it". > > If Fedora just moved to using this clearly superior system rather than > IRC, what would you still need IRC for? My answer to that is "basically > nothing", I think. Especially since GNOME seems to be moving to it too. > And like I said, I am not wanting to stop people from moving to it. I am against people saying it shouldn't be done. I am just getting off the bus, and wanted to say that is a better alternative than trying to generate stop energy. -- Stephen J Smoogen. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 05:55:49PM +, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 06:50:21PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > No, please. IRC bridges need to be closed to force users to switch > > to Matrix. > "force"? You may have said the quiet bit aloud ... To be clear, Vitaly isn't an insider to some secret decision here. I think you should just read this as enthusiasm. That said, let me say a couple of things out loud so that no one later thinks I'm trying to sneak anything: 1. Matrix has already been a success for several Fedora sub-communities, and others have been using just personally as a way to access bridged IRC channels for years. If the next-phase pilot I'm proposing (which is: bring those bridged channels to one Fedora-owned server, and to move #fedora-council there as well) is a success, I *definitely* plan to propose "Matrix primary" as the next step. That doesn't mean forcing people to switch, but I would like to see zodbot be replaced with Matrix-native bots (possibly several for different functions, rather than one swiss army knife?), and for our documentation to point to our chat server first. And it means that people on IRC might miss out on some of the rich features of Matrix which don't translate very well. 2. Marie and I spoke with management at Red Hat's Open Source Program Office, and they're willing to fund SaaS hosting for this _separate from the Fedora community budget_, because they also would like Fedora communication channels to feel more approachable. So that's something I'd like to take advantage of. (This would be via Element's hosted services, which are all open source. They'll do both hosting and instance administration, so this is really quite nice for us.) -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 14:15 -0500, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > My apologies for that misinformation. While a federated chat system is a > network of servers for people being social, I should not tie them in the > same crappile as Social Networks where my logins and engagement are > measured and sold. > > Open source is good, but it is still yet another distraction that I have to > learn > a) which tool I need to add as a screen to watch things > b) how to shut up from pinging me with 'blah mentioned you!', etc. > c) avoid spending hours looking at it as something to do versus work. I mean, I'm an old fogey too, but at *some* point we do have to accept that new things can be actively better. I honestly can see exactly zero downsides to using a Matrix setup as compared to using IRC, and a giant pile of upsides, starting with "I no longer need to dedicate a small portion of my brain to remembering how my IRC bouncer setup works and maintaining it". If Fedora just moved to using this clearly superior system rather than IRC, what would you still need IRC for? My answer to that is "basically nothing", I think. Especially since GNOME seems to be moving to it too. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 13:29, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 13:23 -0500, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 12:57, Richard W.M. Jones > wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 06:50:21PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel > wrote: > > > > On 19.11.2020 18:34, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > > > > > Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, > > > > > "IRC-native" (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. > > > > > Contributors who prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and > > > > > won't really notice any difference. > > > > > > > > No, please. IRC bridges need to be closed to force users to switch > > > > to Matrix. > > > > > > "force"? You may have said the quiet bit aloud ... > > > > > > > > Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and honestly I am ok if this is > the > > way Fedora goes. I have no interest in opening any more social network > > accounts, but I am not going to stop people from moving into other > places. > > If I am dropped out of communication to the point I can't do my job, then > > it is time for me to move out of this job and let someone else do it. > > Matrix isn't a social network account. It's an open source federated > chat system. > My apologies for that misinformation. While a federated chat system is a network of servers for people being social, I should not tie them in the same crappile as Social Networks where my logins and engagement are measured and sold. Open source is good, but it is still yet another distraction that I have to learn a) which tool I need to add as a screen to watch things b) how to shut up from pinging me with 'blah mentioned you!', etc. c) avoid spending hours looking at it as something to do versus work. > -- > Adam Williamson > Fedora QA Community Monkey > IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net > http://www.happyassassin.net > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > -- Stephen J Smoogen. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 05:53:29PM +, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > I too love dinosaurs... but I also work on 4 different computers and two > > mobile > > devices every day. Having to literally switch hardware to participate in IRC > > meetings is pain in the ass for some of our contributors (myself included.) > I also use many different computers and have no such problem, because > I use screen + znc. (Same in fact for email: screen + mutt) We were just talking today in the Fedora Council virtual face-to-face about how Fedora could really use a formalized Project Management community of practice -- people interested, skilled, and willing to lend their time and expertise to SIGs and other groups in Fedora who would benefit. I don't want to gate involvement like that on people with those skills and interests also being able to just easily set up ZNC, learn screen, etc. (including for that matter having an always-on system where that makes sense). Sure, it's not actually hard in an absolute sense and I trust any reasonably smart person can figure it out, but... why make people start there when it's not even their interest? -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 19:28 +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 19.11.2020 19:16, Adam Williamson wrote: > > If we use a central server, only one server needs maintaining, and the > > problem is solved for everyone. The benefit seems pretty clear. > > Matrix don't need a central server. This is a federated network. All > rooms are hosted on multiple servers. I was talking about how it appears to a user, not the technical details. To a Fedora user there's a Fedora server they join and it does all the backlog-maintaining stuff for them. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 05:08:08PM +, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > There's quite a lot wrong here - a video meeting(!) to discuss > dropping a commonly used and well established channel of > communication. Well, I guess at least you didn't decide to use the > proprietary awfulness of Slack. > > Couldn't you just talk about this on email? We can do that too; Neal just suggested a video call as way to get interested parties together. And, yeah, I'm also not interested in slack. > What's the reason why hosting your own server for a fairly uncommon > chat protocol is better than continuing to use IRC? There are a number of things: * We know IRC is a barrier for new users. Any onboarding which has to include explaining what NickServ is is starting underwater -- and that's just the start of it! * IRC doesn't have persistence. People want that. Setting up ZNC is another barrier. * Being able to add reactions, send images, and edit typos are not essential, but really quite nice. * It's not all that uncomming; Mozilla, GNOME, and openSUSE have also moved to Matrix. * Since you mentioned Slack: let's get behind an open source alternative before it's too late. * Matrix has reasonably decent bridging to IRC, which will make migration easy (and if you don't want to migrate ever, that will remain an option). ... and probably others. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 19.11.2020 19:31, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: Just like IRC. No. If the FreeNode network goes down, all Fedora IRC chats will disappear. In Matrix if one server will stop working, users can easily switch to another and continue chatting. All messages will be saved. Also users from the other Matrix servers (matrix.org or self-hosted) can join without any registration. Federated network. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 1:32 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > On Thursday, 19 November 2020 at 19:28, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 19.11.2020 19:16, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > If we use a central server, only one server needs maintaining, and the > > > problem is solved for everyone. The benefit seems pretty clear. > > > > Matrix don't need a central server. This is a federated network. All rooms > > are hosted on multiple servers. > > Just like IRC. > No, it isn't. Federation implies either freely cross-server identities or freely cross-server access. In order to access a channel on Freenode, you need a Freenode account and log into the Freenode server itself. Matrix allows MXIDs for rooms and users to float across servers freely by synchronizing events across subscribed servers. For example, this allows my MXID on matrix.org to login to kde.org Matrix rooms and chat with folks from kde.org, opensuse.org, mozilla.org, and so on. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thursday, 19 November 2020 at 19:28, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 19.11.2020 19:16, Adam Williamson wrote: > > If we use a central server, only one server needs maintaining, and the > > problem is solved for everyone. The benefit seems pretty clear. > > Matrix don't need a central server. This is a federated network. All rooms > are hosted on multiple servers. Just like IRC. Regards, Dominik -- Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPM Fusion http://rpmfusion.org There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression to develop psychic muscles. -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 19.11.2020 19:16, Adam Williamson wrote: If we use a central server, only one server needs maintaining, and the problem is solved for everyone. The benefit seems pretty clear. Matrix don't need a central server. This is a federated network. All rooms are hosted on multiple servers. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 13:23 -0500, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 12:57, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 06:50:21PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > > On 19.11.2020 18:34, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > > > > Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, > > > > "IRC-native" (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. > > > > Contributors who prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and > > > > won't really notice any difference. > > > > > > No, please. IRC bridges need to be closed to force users to switch > > > to Matrix. > > > > "force"? You may have said the quiet bit aloud ... > > > > > Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and honestly I am ok if this is the > way Fedora goes. I have no interest in opening any more social network > accounts, but I am not going to stop people from moving into other places. > If I am dropped out of communication to the point I can't do my job, then > it is time for me to move out of this job and let someone else do it. Matrix isn't a social network account. It's an open source federated chat system. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 12:57, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 06:50:21PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 19.11.2020 18:34, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > > >Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, > > >"IRC-native" (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. > > >Contributors who prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and > > >won't really notice any difference. > > > > No, please. IRC bridges need to be closed to force users to switch > > to Matrix. > > "force"? You may have said the quiet bit aloud ... > > Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and honestly I am ok if this is the way Fedora goes. I have no interest in opening any more social network accounts, but I am not going to stop people from moving into other places. If I am dropped out of communication to the point I can't do my job, then it is time for me to move out of this job and let someone else do it. -- Stephen J Smoogen. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 1:09 PM Daniel Pocock wrote: > > > > On 19/11/2020 18:55, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 06:50:21PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > >> On 19.11.2020 18:34, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > >>> Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, > >>> "IRC-native" (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. > >>> Contributors who prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and > >>> won't really notice any difference. > >> > >> No, please. IRC bridges need to be closed to force users to switch > >> to Matrix. > > > > "force"? You may have said the quiet bit aloud ... > > yes, it got my attention too > > I'm not going to give a firm recommendation for or against any platform > but I'd like to make two suggestions: > > a) why not slow the process down and allow more ideas to come forward? > There is no urgent need to change things in a month or whatever. > > b) it is really important to look at the organizational factors and not > just the technical factors. Today, too many organizations allow their > culture to be shaped by whatever tool is available. I'll refrain from > giving examples of the disasters that follow. For any free software > organization and any other type of organization too, it needs to be > organization first, tool second. > > Maybe I will recommend a platform... > The move to having our own Matrix server is being driven by Fedora subcommunities already wanting to move primacy from IRC to Matrix. Many of our adjunct upstreams have done so (Mozilla, KDE, etc.) or are in the process of doing so (GNOME, openSUSE, etc.). The intent isn't to drop IRC as a gateway to these communities, and indeed the Freenode IRC channels would remain bridged to the Fedora Matrix server. To be blunt, we're struggling to get new folks to come talk to us on IRC. Our largest user community is on Discord today, which eclipses *everything* else by a wide margin. Next up is Telegram, which we have been using somewhat for years through influence by the Russian Fedora community who brought it to us in the first place. Neither of these platforms are FOSS, and we want to provide a rich real-time communications platform that is FOSS and open in many of the same ways that IRC is. Matrix is open, federated, and gaining share in the marketplace, making it a solid replacement for IRC. And unlike alternatives, maintaining links to historical IRC channels with Matrix rooms is easy and straightforward. We want to be approachable, and we want to be appealing. Right now, our usage of IRC hurts us. The Matrix makeover can help smooth out those issues without leaving behind the folks who prefer the IRC interface. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 17:53 +, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 06:34:28PM +0100, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > > Let me start off: > > > > What's the reason why hosting your own server for a fairly uncommon > > chat protocol is better than continuing to use IRC? > > > > > > I too love dinosaurs... but I also work on 4 different computers and two > > mobile > > devices every day. Having to literally switch hardware to participate in IRC > > meetings is pain in the ass for some of our contributors (myself included.) > > I also use many different computers and have no such problem, because > I use screen + znc. (Same in fact for email: screen + mutt) That solves the problem for...you. Everyone else who needs it solved has to run their own bouncer. So we have several thousand people either maintaining an IRC bouncer, or living with the inconvenience. If we use a central server, only one server needs maintaining, and the problem is solved for everyone. The benefit seems pretty clear. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 19/11/2020 18:55, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 06:50:21PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: >> On 19.11.2020 18:34, Radka Gustavsson wrote: >>> Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, >>> "IRC-native" (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. >>> Contributors who prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and >>> won't really notice any difference. >> >> No, please. IRC bridges need to be closed to force users to switch >> to Matrix. > > "force"? You may have said the quiet bit aloud ... yes, it got my attention too I'm not going to give a firm recommendation for or against any platform but I'd like to make two suggestions: a) why not slow the process down and allow more ideas to come forward? There is no urgent need to change things in a month or whatever. b) it is really important to look at the organizational factors and not just the technical factors. Today, too many organizations allow their culture to be shaped by whatever tool is available. I'll refrain from giving examples of the disasters that follow. For any free software organization and any other type of organization too, it needs to be organization first, tool second. Maybe I will recommend a platform... 73 Daniel ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 06:50:21PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 19.11.2020 18:34, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > >Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, > >"IRC-native" (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. > >Contributors who prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and > >won't really notice any difference. > > No, please. IRC bridges need to be closed to force users to switch > to Matrix. "force"? You may have said the quiet bit aloud ... Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com virt-p2v converts physical machines to virtual machines. Boot with a live CD or over the network (PXE) and turn machines into KVM guests. http://libguestfs.org/virt-v2v ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 06:46:31PM +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 19.11.2020 18:08, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > >What's the reason why hosting your own server for a fairly uncommon > >chat protocol is better than continuing to use IRC? > > IRC is a legacy protocol with no support for modern features like > message editing, history, etc. I'm not sure that message editing is a feature, but for history, screen + znc + irssi works well (there are alternates for all those components, I'm mentioning what I use). Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com virt-builder quickly builds VMs from scratch http://libguestfs.org/virt-builder.1.html ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 19.11.2020 18:49, Sérgio Basto wrote: How I install matrix/element in my desktop ? I suggest you install nheko instead of Element: sudo dnf install nheko P.S. Fedora 33 is required for nheko due to an ancient version of Boost in Fedora 32. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 06:34:28PM +0100, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > Let me start off: > > What's the reason why hosting your own server for a fairly uncommon > chat protocol is better than continuing to use IRC? > > > I too love dinosaurs... but I also work on 4 different computers and two > mobile > devices every day. Having to literally switch hardware to participate in IRC > meetings is pain in the ass for some of our contributors (myself included.) I also use many different computers and have no such problem, because I use screen + znc. (Same in fact for email: screen + mutt) Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com virt-p2v converts physical machines to virtual machines. Boot with a live CD or over the network (PXE) and turn machines into KVM guests. http://libguestfs.org/virt-v2v ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 19.11.2020 18:34, Radka Gustavsson wrote: Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, "IRC-native" (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. Contributors who prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and won't really notice any difference. No, please. IRC bridges need to be closed to force users to switch to Matrix. There are many native Matrix clients in the repository: nheko, spectral, quaternion. Each user can choose what he likes. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, 2020-11-19 at 18:34 +0100, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 6:11 PM Richard W.M. Jones > wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:22:26PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > > > [I posted to the Fedora Council list, but reposting here for > > wider > > > > > distribution.] > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned, we're looking at moving the Fedora Council's main > > chat to > > > > > Matrix. And as part of that, we're considering a hosted Element > > server -- > > > > > which obviously could go quite beyond just #fedora-council. Neal > > suggested a > > > > > video meeting to talk with interested people about this, and so I > > set up > > > > > this when-is-good > > > > > > > > > >http://whenisgood.net/k5brwbd > > > > > > > > > > Anyone interested in a preliminary chat about all of this, please > > sign up > > > > > with your FAS id and availability. Nothing is sent in stone or > > decided > > > > > already, although I must say I'm pretty excited about Element's > > open source > > > > > software-as-a-service offering based on what I've heard from them > > so far. > > > > > > > > There's quite a lot wrong here - a video meeting(!) to discuss > > > > dropping a commonly used and well established channel of > > > > communication. Well, I guess at least you didn't decide to use the > > > > proprietary awfulness of Slack. > > Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, "IRC- > native" (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. > Contributors who prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and won't > really notice any difference. > > > > > Couldn't you just talk about this on email? > > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/the-future-of-real-time-chat-discussion-for-the-fedora-council/24628 > > > > > Let me start off: > > > > > > > > What's the reason why hosting your own server for a fairly uncommon > > > > chat protocol is better than continuing to use IRC? > > I too love dinosaurs... but I also work on 4 different computers and > two mobile devices every day. Having to literally switch hardware to > participate in IRC meetings is pain in the ass for some of our > contributors (myself included.) How I install matrix/element in my desktop ? Thank you > > > > Rich. > > > > > > > > ___devel mailing list > > -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > > Fedora Code of Conduct: > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > > List Guidelines: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > > List Archives: > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org -- Sérgio M. B. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On 19.11.2020 18:08, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: What's the reason why hosting your own server for a fairly uncommon chat protocol is better than continuing to use IRC? IRC is a legacy protocol with no support for modern features like message editing, history, etc. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 6:11 PM Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:22:26PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > [I posted to the Fedora Council list, but reposting here for wider > > distribution.] > > > > As mentioned, we're looking at moving the Fedora Council's main chat to > > Matrix. And as part of that, we're considering a hosted Element server -- > > which obviously could go quite beyond just #fedora-council. Neal > suggested a > > video meeting to talk with interested people about this, and so I set up > > this when-is-good > > > >http://whenisgood.net/k5brwbd > > > > Anyone interested in a preliminary chat about all of this, please sign up > > with your FAS id and availability. Nothing is sent in stone or decided > > already, although I must say I'm pretty excited about Element's open > source > > software-as-a-service offering based on what I've heard from them so far. > > There's quite a lot wrong here - a video meeting(!) to discuss > dropping a commonly used and well established channel of > communication. Well, I guess at least you didn't decide to use the > proprietary awfulness of Slack. > Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, "IRC-native" (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. Contributors who prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and won't really notice any difference. > > Couldn't you just talk about this on email? > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/the-future-of-real-time-chat-discussion-for-the-fedora-council/24628 > > Let me start off: > > What's the reason why hosting your own server for a fairly uncommon > chat protocol is better than continuing to use IRC? > I too love dinosaurs... but I also work on 4 different computers and two mobile devices every day. Having to literally switch hardware to participate in IRC meetings is pain in the ass for some of our contributors (myself included.) > > Rich. > > -- > Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat > http://people.redhat.com/~rjones > Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com > virt-builder quickly builds VMs from scratch > http://libguestfs.org/virt-builder.1.html > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:22:26PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > [I posted to the Fedora Council list, but reposting here for wider > distribution.] > > As mentioned, we're looking at moving the Fedora Council's main chat to > Matrix. And as part of that, we're considering a hosted Element server -- > which obviously could go quite beyond just #fedora-council. Neal suggested a > video meeting to talk with interested people about this, and so I set up > this when-is-good > >http://whenisgood.net/k5brwbd > > Anyone interested in a preliminary chat about all of this, please sign up > with your FAS id and availability. Nothing is sent in stone or decided > already, although I must say I'm pretty excited about Element's open source > software-as-a-service offering based on what I've heard from them so far. There's quite a lot wrong here - a video meeting(!) to discuss dropping a commonly used and well established channel of communication. Well, I guess at least you didn't decide to use the proprietary awfulness of Slack. Couldn't you just talk about this on email? Let me start off: What's the reason why hosting your own server for a fairly uncommon chat protocol is better than continuing to use IRC? Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com virt-builder quickly builds VMs from scratch http://libguestfs.org/virt-builder.1.html ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
[I posted to the Fedora Council list, but reposting here for wider distribution.] As mentioned, we're looking at moving the Fedora Council's main chat to Matrix. And as part of that, we're considering a hosted Element server -- which obviously could go quite beyond just #fedora-council. Neal suggested a video meeting to talk with interested people about this, and so I set up this when-is-good http://whenisgood.net/k5brwbd Anyone interested in a preliminary chat about all of this, please sign up with your FAS id and availability. Nothing is sent in stone or decided already, although I must say I'm pretty excited about Element's open source software-as-a-service offering based on what I've heard from them so far. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
