Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Mikus Grinbergs]

> So, I guess you don't install any software that you download and run, like
> Firefox or OpenOffice.org or Google Earth?

I've installed and am running applications such as Firefox 3.6.3 (plus
Flash 10.1), Google Chrome 5.0.342.9, Adobe Reader 9.3.1, mplayer,
FBReader, etc. -- because I trust the organizations that made these
applications available.  Haven't installed OpenOffice - *why* would I
want to run it on the XO ?  Tried to install Google Earth once (to see
if I could) - the installation process ran out of some kind of resource,
and I was not interested enough to fix whatver the difficulty was.

> The point about AIR is
> that it lets the developer use the same tools to develop rich Internet
> applications and desktop applications with attractive "rich" user
> interfaces.

O.K.  My point is that I am not the target for that developer - I have
little interest in acquiring his application, no matter how rich it is.
[I look for function, not for attractive interfaces.]  And if I get an
opportunity to mentor a newbie, I will try to convey what kind of things
I think he should pay the most attention to.

mikus
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Stanley Sokolow]

So, I guess you don't install any software that you download and run, like
Firefox or OpenOffice.org or Google Earth?  An AIR program doesn't just
sneak itself onto your system -- the user decides to buy it, or trust the
source of it, downloads it, and runs the installer.  The point about AIR is
that it lets the developer use the same tools to develop rich Internet
applications and desktop applications with attractive "rich" user
interfaces.

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Mikus Grinbergs  wrote:

> > The AIR application is given more freedom -- for example, it can
> > access local files.
>
> Back when Netscape first came out, I was bitten when a "selfish" plugin
> changed my system's defaults without me realizing it.  Ever since, I do
> NOT want a remotely acquired program to be able to access the local
> files in my system.  [The "nobody" user was invented to limit access.]
>
> I'm willing to mess with my local files myself.  But if a program from
> who-knows-where might mess with my local files -- I'd rather deny myself
> whatever experience that program is supposed to bring -- rather than
> chance having that program change how I have set up my system to run.
>
> > Go to http://www.adobe.com/products/air/ for examples of AIR
> > applications you can download and run.
>
> I did.  Nothing there looks like something I can't live without.
>
> mikus
>
>
>
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Mikus Grinbergs]

> The AIR application is given more freedom -- for example, it can
> access local files.

Back when Netscape first came out, I was bitten when a "selfish" plugin
changed my system's defaults without me realizing it.  Ever since, I do
NOT want a remotely acquired program to be able to access the local
files in my system.  [The "nobody" user was invented to limit access.]

I'm willing to mess with my local files myself.  But if a program from
who-knows-where might mess with my local files -- I'd rather deny myself
whatever experience that program is supposed to bring -- rather than
chance having that program change how I have set up my system to run.

> Go to http://www.adobe.com/products/air/ for examples of AIR
> applications you can download and run.

I did.  Nothing there looks like something I can't live without.

mikus


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Fwd: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Stanley Sokolow]

Sorry, I keep forgetting to put the list manager in my addresses.   Here's
my latest message:

-- Forwarded message --
From: Stanley Sokolow 
Date: Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC
To: mi...@bga.com


I forgot to answer your statement below about Linux on the XO:

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Mikus Grinbergs  wrote:

> ...
>
> p.s.  People keep showing various Linux platforms (e.g., Ubuntu, Debian,
> etc) running on the XO.  As far as I am concerned, if these people
> *want* to run Ubuntu, Debian, etc., then buying a modern netbook for
> that purpose will give them better performance than using the XO.
>
>
When I started helping my wife develop an interactive math tutoring
capability for the XO we bought from the 2008 G1G1 campaign, I looked at and
tried the Sugar activities.None of them were capable of her necessary
features:  2-way interactive whiteboard and 2-way interactive video and
audio communications.Sure, some activities were in development trying to
achieve these capabilities, but they weren't real yet.   We tried a web
services approach -- looked at various things like "Go to Meeting".When
we found www.Vyew.com, we saw what we needed.   It worked on our PCs.
Turning to the XO, the Browse activity with Gnash just couldn't run Vyew.
When I installed the version of FlashPlayer that the laptop.org wiki
recommended, it didn't work the XOs camera and microphone and didn't even
operate the Flash settings dialog properly.Doing more searching, I found
a version of Ubuntu that had been adapted to the XO by a user who called
himself "Teapot" on the forum.   It's a stripped down, lightweight version
that uses Xfce as the window manager (hence it's called a Xubuntu
distribution) and incorporates the same kernel that olpc used in the version
of Fedora that came on our XO beneath Sugar, so it knows about the XO's
unique hardware.After some work, I got it running from an SD card so I
didn't have to trash the native operating system.I didn't do this
because I wanted to run Linux -- I have other Linux machines -- but rather
because it would let me get the job done, the system built with the features
necessary for the tutoring project.   If the XO comes up to that capability
with Browse and Gnash, I'd run the native system.But it's not there,
yet.  We also tried to use Skype on the native Sugar/Fedora OS, but at that
time, you had to do so many hokey work-arounds to fool the software into
running Skype, it just wasn't feasible for a deployment with low entry
threshold.

The 6 to 12 year-old kids that are the prime target of the olpc mission
don't care what platform is behind the screen.   Just as in the Wizard of
Oz, "Don't pay any attention to that man behind the curtain."   As the
laptop.org mission statement says, "It’s not a laptop project. It’s an
education project."   To me that says that the mission is not to empower
kids to write programs or tinker inside the system, but rather to use the XO
as an educational tool to learn about the world and life and such, to
collaborate with each other across the room and around the globe, to explore
the depth of knowledge on the Internet, etc.

Stan
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Stanley Sokolow]

AIR (Adobe Integrated Runtime) is a desktop application that runs the
FlashPlayer virtual machine outside of a browser.   You know that Flash is
usually thought of as a plug-in to run Flash content inside of a web page
being displayed on a browser.   To maintain web security, the Flash plug-in
enforces restrictions on the Flash programs.   For example, a Flash program
running within a browser is not allowed to access files on the user's
computer, only files that come from the same domain as the Flash program
came from off of the web.  With AIR, the Flash Player runs as a stand-alone
application outside of and independent of any browser.   This allows rich
Flash interfaces to run just like any application installed on the user's
computer.  The AIR application is given more freedom -- for example, it can
access local files.   When a program is being compiled by the IDE, one of
the settings the developer chooses is whether to compile it for AIR or for
the FlashPlayer plugin.But for the most part, the program will run the
same on either platform.This lets developers use the rich Internet
application tools to create desktop applications.  AIR handles things like
the installation, checking for updates, installing updates, automatically
without the programmer having to build those services.  Go to
http://www.adobe.com/products/air/ for examples of AIR applications you can
download and run.



On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Mikus Grinbergs  wrote:

> There's been all this discussion of AIR.  I am unfamiliar with AIR.
> My question :  "Why would I (as an user) __need__ AIR ?"
>
> I do not mind using a "browser", nor do I mind installing a
> special-purpose "plugin" into my browser in order to access particular
> material.  But what does AIR provide that for instance the combination
> of "latest Firefox plus latest Adobe Flash plugin" would not provide ?
>
> Thanks,  mikus
>
>
> p.s.  People keep showing various Linux platforms (e.g., Ubuntu, Debian,
> etc) running on the XO.  As far as I am concerned, if these people
> *want* to run Ubuntu, Debian, etc., then buying a modern netbook for
> that purpose will give them better performance than using the XO.
>
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Mikus Grinbergs]

There's been all this discussion of AIR.  I am unfamiliar with AIR.
My question :  "Why would I (as an user) __need__ AIR ?"

I do not mind using a "browser", nor do I mind installing a
special-purpose "plugin" into my browser in order to access particular
material.  But what does AIR provide that for instance the combination
of "latest Firefox plus latest Adobe Flash plugin" would not provide ?

Thanks,  mikus


p.s.  People keep showing various Linux platforms (e.g., Ubuntu, Debian,
etc) running on the XO.  As far as I am concerned, if these people
*want* to run Ubuntu, Debian, etc., then buying a modern netbook for
that purpose will give them better performance than using the XO.

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Re: Fwd: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Paul Fox]

stanley wrote:
 > 
 > Sorry, Paul,  I just can't accept the idea that the target audience of the
 > OLPC projects must necessarily include kids who are capable and interested
 > in re-programming the software activities they're using.Moreover, would
 > you want to modify and re-compile your application software (for example,
 > Firefox) just to change the way it behaves with respect to which home page,
 > web site filters, cookies, etc. etc.?   That's what configuration options
 > are for.   Even if you want more versatility, the application can implement
 > rules in xml or an application-specific mini-language or whatever.
 > Rebuilding an application in Python should be a last resort and not even for
 > the 99.% of target users of the system.

these are all strawmen, and i won't bother arguing them
seriously.  in fact, one of the reasons i wouldn't modify
firefox as you suggest is _precisely_ because i probably don't
have the source and tools at hand, and it will be difficult (yes,
even though it's open source) to obtain them and configure all of
the prerequesites.  (ironically, the barrier to entry for
modifying my own kernel is far lower than for modifying my
browser, though the stakes are higher, of course.  ;-)  the
barrier to entry for modifying applications written in a
scripting language are lower still, and i'm more likely to do so,
or, at least, to examine the code to see why something works the
way it does.

paul
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Fwd: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Stanley Sokolow]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Stanley Sokolow 
Date: Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC
To: Paul Fox 


Sorry, Paul,  I just can't accept the idea that the target audience of the
OLPC projects must necessarily include kids who are capable and interested
in re-programming the software activities they're using.Moreover, would
you want to modify and re-compile your application software (for example,
Firefox) just to change the way it behaves with respect to which home page,
web site filters, cookies, etc. etc.?   That's what configuration options
are for.   Even if you want more versatility, the application can implement
rules in xml or an application-specific mini-language or whatever.
Rebuilding an application in Python should be a last resort and not even for
the 99.% of target users of the system.

How do you define "constructionism" in this context?

Stan


On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Paul Fox  wrote:

> stanley wrote:
>  > I guess I don't understand "constructionism".
>
> i think that's right.
>
>  >
>  > Is it reasonable to require that the development system run on the
> target
>  > machine?
>
> yes.  it's one of the reasons most activities, and many of the
> system, is coded in python.
>
>  > If Apple had this requirement, all of the iPhone/iPod/iPad
>  > applications would be gone.   We wouldn't have any of the millions of
>  > devices (mp3 players, routers, modems, fax machines, cell phones, etc.)
> that
>
> of course.  but i don't think any of those would be considered
> educational tools, let alone embodiments of constructionism.  (and
> nor would you, i'd guess.)
>
>  > have embedded processors not capable of running their development tools.
>  > The XO is the target machine.   It's unreasonable to restrict
> development to
>  > tools that run on the XO.
>
> it's not that unreasonable.  kids learn by doing, and exploring.
> that's kind of the whole point of constructionism.  if you give
> someone a game written using python and pygame, they can (in
> principle) modify that game to change the playing rules.  if you
> give them that same game written in flash, they can't.  it's
> really as simple as that.
>
> whether one agrees with the notion that this is important will vary,
> of course.
>
> paul
> =-
>  paul fox, p...@laptop.org
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Martin Langhoff]

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Carlos Nazareno  wrote:
> Martin, how is this Flash's fault?

I didn't say it was its fault -- I did point out the same cultural
issue you mention.

And shiny distracts. You are writing very long emails and not pointing
to compelling deep and rich stuff.

Maybe what Stanley mentions is worthwhile. That'd be news :-)



m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Paul Fox]

stanley wrote:
 > I guess I don't understand "constructionism".

i think that's right.

 > 
 > Is it reasonable to require that the development system run on the target
 > machine?

yes.  it's one of the reasons most activities, and many of the
system, is coded in python.

 > If Apple had this requirement, all of the iPhone/iPod/iPad
 > applications would be gone.   We wouldn't have any of the millions of
 > devices (mp3 players, routers, modems, fax machines, cell phones, etc.) that

of course.  but i don't think any of those would be considered
educational tools, let alone embodiments of constructionism.  (and
nor would you, i'd guess.)

 > have embedded processors not capable of running their development tools.
 > The XO is the target machine.   It's unreasonable to restrict development to
 > tools that run on the XO.

it's not that unreasonable.  kids learn by doing, and exploring. 
that's kind of the whole point of constructionism.  if you give
someone a game written using python and pygame, they can (in
principle) modify that game to change the playing rules.  if you
give them that same game written in flash, they can't.  it's
really as simple as that.

whether one agrees with the notion that this is important will vary,
of course.

paul
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Carlos Nazareno]

> Nobody has stated that it can't be done. But experience shows the
> opposite correlation (and I have worked in many edu projects using
> Flash myself, some huge such as TLF's SOCCI).
>
> Maybe it's a cultural problem (ie: people who get excited with Flash
> things singing and dancing tend to build shiny stuff rather than deep
> rich stuff with "no ceiling").

Martin, how is this Flash's fault? This is a problem with the authors
creating sub-quality content or having poor source material or
terrible developers, not a problem with the platform itself. If your
educational content is poor, it's going to remain poor no matter what
platform you use.

If Flash was such a terrible platform for creating e-learning
materials, how come over 50% of the e-learning demand outsourced over
here is for Flash? (by the way, kids love shiny stuff.  it helps 'em
learn and pay attention if stuff is shiny.)

> Please change our opinion -- build something outstanding for learning
> with low barriers of entry and no ceiling :-)

There are 26,909 *FREE* Flash games on Kongregate alone -- a lot, if
not most of the really fun ones made by amateur self-taught one-man
gangs. How high a barrier of entry is that if those guys were able to
make multimedia games, something even most "real" programmers find
challenging, given that there are now free supported tools?

I don't know what you mean by ceiling.

Also, games, games, games, games, games.
If you can make education fun, kids will to learn better.

I was lucky enough to have had access to a PC in my childhood with a
number of educational games bought by my parents. Because of those
games, I was able to get a leg up on my classmates in Math, English
and creativity & lateral  thinking as opposed to my other classmates.
Because of my exposure to the PC, I also started coding BASIC games at
10 years old (starting with books from the library) and was actually
already messing around with Algebra when almost everyone else only got
exposed to it in freshman high school.

I don't think I would have been as "smart" a kid if all I had were
books, school, teachers and no educational computer games.

Moreover, think of the possibilities for OLPC if you could tap just 5%
of those Flash game developers to volunteer for edu-games.

Head over to the list of submissions to the 2009 Mochi Media +
Dictionary.com word game  contest:
http://www.mochimedia.com/contest/may09/games

There are some really great word games in there. What if we send an
invite and could get just 20 of those guys to contribute?

I admit, things are very bleak for Flash performance on the XO-1 given
the extremely high resolution (it taxes the vector rasterizing engine
because of the massive increase of pixels that have to be pushed), but
for the XO-1.5, I think the sky's the limit.

Aside from poor performance on the XO-1, what exactly is it that makes
Flash much worse than any other content-authoring platform?

-Naz

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--
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then change it instead of just complaining."
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Stanley Sokolow]

I guess I don't understand "constructionism".

Is it reasonable to require that the development system run on the target
machine?If Apple had this requirement, all of the iPhone/iPod/iPad
applications would be gone.   We wouldn't have any of the millions of
devices (mp3 players, routers, modems, fax machines, cell phones, etc.) that
have embedded processors not capable of running their development tools.
The XO is the target machine.   It's unreasonable to restrict development to
tools that run on the XO.   The FlashPlayer runs on the XO (with appropriate
OS underlying it).   That's more than sufficient to build rich educational
interactive constructionist applications.This is an education project,
after all.Developers in countries where the XO is targeted can surely
get a little netbook to run the Flash IDE as a development tool.Even as
the hardware moves on to better, faster, bigger guts, even with radically
different processor architectures, the developed applications will still run
once the Flash player is ported to the new computers.

Stan

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Chris Ball  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>   >> has a free-open-source IDE (FlashDevelop) from a community,
>
>   > does this run on the XO?
>
> Nope.  We're to believe that Flash is appropriate for constructionism
> on the XO even though it doesn't allow XO users to construct anything.
>
> - Chris.
> --
> Chris Ball   
> One Laptop Per Child
>
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Stanley Sokolow]

That page shows Vyew.com running on Xubuntu on the XO-1.   In my experience,
Vyew.com is "something outstanding for learning
with low barriers of entry and no ceiling" that Martin asked to see built
with Flash.  (Stanford University uses Vyew for its Stanford Engineering
Everywhereplatform,
so Stanford agrees that Vyew is worthwhile for a learning/teaching
platform.)

The Xubuntu (or Fedora) system could be stripped further to make it
extremely austere (only the icons and menus you want the student to see),
much like Sugar.   The point is that a "no ceiling" application like Vyew,
which is a teaching and learning platform on which creative minds can build
interactive educational experiences, can be built in Flash to run on an XO.
I'm not suggesting that the OLPC developers try to recreate Vyew.  I'm
saying that Vyew shows how capable the Flash platform is, even using free
tools to build and deploy it.

>From what I've been reading from OLPC contributors, there seems to be a
dichotomy between people who want to keep the system "pure" free-open-source
versus others who are more interested in getting something good built even
if it incorporates some free but not open source software.  I'm a
pragmatist.   Until FOSS can provide the tools I need to create what I want,
I'm not averse to using what I can get now and porting to FOSS later when it
catches up.

Stan


On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Paul Fox  wrote:

> stanley wrote:
>  > You can see the Xubuntu system running on our XO-1 at:  Internet Math
>  > Tutoring / OLPC Project
>  > <
> http://internetmathtutoring.com/olpc/static.php?page=static090711-100100>.
>
> what does this have to do with flash?
>
>  >
>  > On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Stanley Sokolow <
> overb...@earthlink.net>wrote:
>  ...
>  > > interfaces and binding data to them, has an open-source free-to-use
> (from
>  > > Adobe) compiler, has a free-open-source IDE (FlashDevelop) from a
> community,
>
> does this run on the XO?
>
> paul
> =-
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Chris Ball]

Hi,

   >> has a free-open-source IDE (FlashDevelop) from a community,

   > does this run on the XO?

Nope.  We're to believe that Flash is appropriate for constructionism
on the XO even though it doesn't allow XO users to construct anything.

- Chris.
-- 
Chris Ball   
One Laptop Per Child
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Paul Fox]

stanley wrote:
 > You can see the Xubuntu system running on our XO-1 at:  Internet Math
 > Tutoring / OLPC Project
 > .

what does this have to do with flash?

 > 
 > On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Stanley Sokolow 
 > wrote:
 ...
 > > interfaces and binding data to them, has an open-source free-to-use (from
 > > Adobe) compiler, has a free-open-source IDE (FlashDevelop) from a 
 > > community,

does this run on the XO?

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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Stanley Sokolow]

You can see the Xubuntu system running on our XO-1 at:  Internet Math
Tutoring / OLPC Project
.

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Stanley Sokolow wrote:

> Sorry, guys, but I just don't see why the content is somehow corrupted or
> limited by deployment on the Flash platform.The FlashPlayer implements a
> virtual machine that is customized by Adobe to run on various hardware and
> OSs.   They're extending it now to ARM-processor-based devices (cell
> phones).   The concept is write-once-run-everywhere.  The FlashPlayer runs
> inside browsers or stand-alone (AIR).  The programming language it supports
> (ActionScript) is now a very capable language, has libraries (both free and
> not-free) for lots of goodies including very rich graphical interfaces, has
> a powerful declarative xml-based language (Flex MXML) for building the
> interfaces and binding data to them, has an open-source free-to-use (from
> Adobe) compiler, has a free-open-source IDE (FlashDevelop) from a community,
> has a superb IDE from Adobe that only costs $249 for the standard version
> which includes a visual drag-and-drop design view mode as well as text mode
> of programming and lots of features lacking in the FOSS FlashDevelop, etc.
>
> One can program and run Flash programs with free-to-use software.   I know
> of a very capable interactive web site (www.vyew.com, try the demo and
> see) that runs extremely nicely and was built with the open source IDE.
> Vyew.com runs on my XO, but I had to install the "Teapot" distribution of
> Xubuntu on an SD card and run Firefox with FlashPlayer plugin.It runs an
> interactive whiteboard plus 2-way video and audio on my little XO-1, and it
> supports plug-in extensions that users can build.  If the Vyew developers
> can do this with free tools, why can't the OLPC community use Flash as a
> platform?
>
> So, please explain why "constructionist" educational models can't be
> programmed and run on the Flash platform just as well or better than in
> Python on Sugar on Fedora.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 8:31 AM, James Zaki  wrote:
>
>> I'm guilty of spending more time than I probably should at newgrounds.com,
>> their slogan being "Everything, by Everyone".
>> Its a melting pot of free content, and what really impresses me are the
>> absolute gems of creativity that one finds from time to time.
>>
>> I dont see flash as the main XO education content maker, but can see the
>> argument for popularity in the short term.
>>
>> James.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2010/4/12 John Watlington 
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 11, 2010, at 8:56 PM, James Cameron wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 08:51:01PM -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
>>> >> But hey. Flash developers want Flash in it. It's gotta be good for
>>> >> something.
>>> >
>>> > My guess is that it is handy for repurposing the system for
>>> > entertainment usage.  (I don't have Flash enabled on my systems, so I
>>> > don't really know what I'm missing).
>>>
>>> It's all the rage for games these days.   My kids constantly astound
>>> me with the rendering quality and interactiveness of flash games that
>>> they are able to find for free on the web.
>>>
>>> Deployments that have asked for Flash also point to games as the reason.
>>>
>>> wad
>>>
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Martin Langhoff]

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Stanley Sokolow
 wrote:
> So, please explain why "constructionist" educational models can't be

Nobody has stated that it can't be done. But experience shows the
opposite correlation (and I have worked in many edu projects using
Flash myself, some huge such as TLF's SOCCI).

Maybe it's a cultural problem (ie: people who get excited with Flash
things singing and dancing tend to build shiny stuff rather than deep
rich stuff with "no ceiling").

Please change our opinion -- build something outstanding for learning
with low barriers of entry and no ceiling :-)



m
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Stanley Sokolow]

Sorry, guys, but I just don't see why the content is somehow corrupted or
limited by deployment on the Flash platform.The FlashPlayer implements a
virtual machine that is customized by Adobe to run on various hardware and
OSs.   They're extending it now to ARM-processor-based devices (cell
phones).   The concept is write-once-run-everywhere.  The FlashPlayer runs
inside browsers or stand-alone (AIR).  The programming language it supports
(ActionScript) is now a very capable language, has libraries (both free and
not-free) for lots of goodies including very rich graphical interfaces, has
a powerful declarative xml-based language (Flex MXML) for building the
interfaces and binding data to them, has an open-source free-to-use (from
Adobe) compiler, has a free-open-source IDE (FlashDevelop) from a community,
has a superb IDE from Adobe that only costs $249 for the standard version
which includes a visual drag-and-drop design view mode as well as text mode
of programming and lots of features lacking in the FOSS FlashDevelop, etc.

One can program and run Flash programs with free-to-use software.   I know
of a very capable interactive web site (www.vyew.com, try the demo and see)
that runs extremely nicely and was built with the open source IDE.
Vyew.com runs on my XO, but I had to install the "Teapot" distribution of
Xubuntu on an SD card and run Firefox with FlashPlayer plugin.It runs an
interactive whiteboard plus 2-way video and audio on my little XO-1, and it
supports plug-in extensions that users can build.  If the Vyew developers
can do this with free tools, why can't the OLPC community use Flash as a
platform?

So, please explain why "constructionist" educational models can't be
programmed and run on the Flash platform just as well or better than in
Python on Sugar on Fedora.



On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 8:31 AM, James Zaki  wrote:

> I'm guilty of spending more time than I probably should at newgrounds.com,
> their slogan being "Everything, by Everyone".
> Its a melting pot of free content, and what really impresses me are the
> absolute gems of creativity that one finds from time to time.
>
> I dont see flash as the main XO education content maker, but can see the
> argument for popularity in the short term.
>
> James.
>
>
>
> 2010/4/12 John Watlington 
>
>
>> On Apr 11, 2010, at 8:56 PM, James Cameron wrote:
>>
>> > On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 08:51:01PM -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
>> >> But hey. Flash developers want Flash in it. It's gotta be good for
>> >> something.
>> >
>> > My guess is that it is handy for repurposing the system for
>> > entertainment usage.  (I don't have Flash enabled on my systems, so I
>> > don't really know what I'm missing).
>>
>> It's all the rage for games these days.   My kids constantly astound
>> me with the rendering quality and interactiveness of flash games that
>> they are able to find for free on the web.
>>
>> Deployments that have asked for Flash also point to games as the reason.
>>
>> wad
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[James Zaki]

I'm guilty of spending more time than I probably should at newgrounds.com,
their slogan being "Everything, by Everyone".
Its a melting pot of free content, and what really impresses me are the
absolute gems of creativity that one finds from time to time.

I dont see flash as the main XO education content maker, but can see the
argument for popularity in the short term.

James.



2010/4/12 John Watlington 

>
> On Apr 11, 2010, at 8:56 PM, James Cameron wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 08:51:01PM -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
> >> But hey. Flash developers want Flash in it. It's gotta be good for
> >> something.
> >
> > My guess is that it is handy for repurposing the system for
> > entertainment usage.  (I don't have Flash enabled on my systems, so I
> > don't really know what I'm missing).
>
> It's all the rage for games these days.   My kids constantly astound
> me with the rendering quality and interactiveness of flash games that
> they are able to find for free on the web.
>
> Deployments that have asked for Flash also point to games as the reason.
>
> wad
>
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[John Watlington]

On Apr 11, 2010, at 8:56 PM, James Cameron wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 08:51:01PM -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
>> But hey. Flash developers want Flash in it. It's gotta be good for
>> something.
> 
> My guess is that it is handy for repurposing the system for
> entertainment usage.  (I don't have Flash enabled on my systems, so I
> don't really know what I'm missing).

It's all the rage for games these days.   My kids constantly astound
me with the rendering quality and interactiveness of flash games that
they are able to find for free on the web.

Deployments that have asked for Flash also point to games as the reason.

wad

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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[James Cameron]

On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 08:51:01PM -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
> But hey. Flash developers want Flash in it. It's gotta be good for
> something.

My guess is that it is handy for repurposing the system for
entertainment usage.  (I don't have Flash enabled on my systems, so I
don't really know what I'm missing).

-- 
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http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Martin Langhoff]

On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 8:03 PM, John Watlington  wrote:
> It is extremely hard to see how anyone conversant with constructionist
> learning could get excited about Flash + OLPC.

Ditto here. I have never seen anyone who understands learning in depth
advocating Flash. Social constructionism and Flash "educational
content" are polar opposites.

But hey. Flash developers want Flash in it. It's gotta be good for something.

cheers,


m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[John Watlington]

On Apr 11, 2010, at 7:08 PM, Carlos Nazareno wrote:

> Hey Martin! JD also hooked us up with Tom Nguyen, product  manager for
> the Flash Player and here's what Tom said:
> 
> "Great to meet you. I actually recently graduated with an MA in
> Education from Stanford, where I spent a bit of time focusing on
> constructionist learning methods, so it's great to hear about Flash +
> OLPC.

It is extremely hard to see how anyone conversant with constructionist
learning could get excited about Flash + OLPC.

wad

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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Carlos Nazareno]

Hey Martin! JD also hooked us up with Tom Nguyen, product  manager for
the Flash Player and here's what Tom said:

"Great to meet you. I actually recently graduated with an MA in
Education from Stanford, where I spent a bit of time focusing on
constructionist learning methods, so it's great to hear about Flash +
OLPC.

As JD mentioned, please feel to free to pass along questions you might
have, and I'll see if I can help or connect you to the right folks.
Thanks. --Tom"

Pretty cool, no? Forwarded to Ed & Reuben, waiting for replies. :)

JD was also asking for consolidated info that he could pass along to
the right people & I think the best thing for us to do is edit the
wiki pages (or create separate wiki pages) for the issues (like
installation, etc), suggestions & wishlists to get Flash & AIR
installing & running smoothly on the XOs both for Sugar and Fedora,
and then forward those to the Adobe folks.

I know that Flash has traditionally gotten Flak from the open source
community as not being good for the open web because the only
authoring tools were commercial products from Adobe, but now Adobe has
given open source tools for people to create SWFs and AIR apps via
Flex.

Cheers!

-Naz

> From my PoV, Flash is ok installation wise (hey! some optimisation for
> our gpu would be cool, as would finding a way to use xv on linux
> again), but AIR installer needs to be a plain rpm. The current .bin
> installer unpacks itself and builds an rpm on the fly -- this means
> you need to have rpm "dev" packages on the target image, that's
> problematic.
>
> Maybe forward to jd?

-- 
carlos nazareno
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http://www.object404.com
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Re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Martin Langhoff]

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 2:48 AM, Carlos Nazareno  wrote:
> hey guys! Good news, I was able to get in touch with John Dowdell of
> Adobe (email below).

jd is still around! We used to correspond over bug and quirks in
Director versions 3 to 6.

>From my PoV, Flash is ok installation wise (hey! some optimisation for
our gpu would be cool, as would finding a way to use xv on linux
again), but AIR installer needs to be a plain rpm. The current .bin
installer unpacks itself and builds an rpm on the fly -- this means
you need to have rpm "dev" packages on the target image, that's
problematic.

Maybe forward to jd?


m
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 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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re: Flash + AIR on OLPC

[Carlos Nazareno]

hey guys! Good news, I was able to get in touch with John Dowdell of
Adobe (email below).

I'll coordinate with Reuben & Ed for the info needed by Adobe to
improve Flash & AIR behavior on the XOs. *crosses fingers*

-Naz

"> Some stuff OLPC needs to get Flash & AIR running better on the XO-1 & 1.5:
> -installer tweaks -> customizing installation to play better when
> installing files on the XO's modified filesystem
> -performance tweaks, hopefully some hardware acceleration
> -wrappers for Flash & AIR to work with OLPC's Sugar system
> ...  the camera of the XO-1 doesn't work quite properly with Flash 10
> and would need a few tweaks with the Flash player to run well.

Hi Carlos, thanks for the word. I could forward this among the Player
and AIR teams, but they'd likely need more information before being
able to reply. Is there any public documentation on the current blocks
on the project?

Here's the best page I know of, but it doesn't reveal what additional
help they're seeking:
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Adobe_Flash

I'll also check with Mike Melanson when I'm back in the office
tomorrow, to see if he has additional perspective.

Any way I can learn more, so I can improve the chances of a successful response?

tx, jd"

-- 
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http://www.object404.com
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