Re: Windows

[Ed McNierney]

Yes, and due to Microsoft’s requirements it could only boot from a very 
specific make and model (and perhaps even production batch) of SD card.  AFAIK, 
the XO is still the only computer that could (legitimately) boot Windows XP 
from removable media.  Please don’t spend any time on this - it’s just not 
available.  You can search the list archive for previous fruitless efforts :-)

- Ed

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 8:49 AM, John Watlington  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Apr 26, 2015, at 10:09 PM, Jhon Diaz  wrote:
>> 
>> Is there liks a old version or copy a zip or something or are all the copies 
>> are deleted
> 
> One of the reasons we didn’t like Windows is that we can’t distribute it.
> Even the version for the XO-1 had to be purchased from Microsoft (including a 
> label to
> affix to the computer).
> 
> Cheers,
> wad
> 
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Re: Windows

[John Watlington]

> On Apr 26, 2015, at 10:09 PM, Jhon Diaz  wrote:
> 
> Is there liks a old version or copy a zip or something or are all the copies 
> are deleted

One of the reasons we didn’t like Windows is that we can’t distribute it.
Even the version for the XO-1 had to be purchased from Microsoft (including a 
label to
affix to the computer).

Cheers,
wad

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Windows

[Jhon Diaz]

Is there liks a old version or copy a zip or something or are all the
copies are deleted
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Re: Windows xo-1

[Ed McNierney]

Microsoft Windows XP was released for the XO-1 and XO-1.5 laptops.  Both were 
special projects done for a limited number of users, and were never maintained 
beyond the initial release.  Neither version is or was generally available.

- Ed

> On Apr 25, 2015, at 9:41 PM, Jhon Diaz  wrote:
> 
> Is windows on xo-1 real i saw it in a video if so how or where can i get a 
> copy 
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Windows xo-1

[Jhon Diaz]

Is windows on xo-1 real i saw it in a video if so how or where can i get a
copy
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Windows XP on XO-1, XO-1.5

[Ed McNierney]

Windows XP on the XO-1 loads and works just about the same as on any other 
machine.  Microsoft did the implementation, primarily by replacing Open 
Firmware with Insyde BIOS, a standard proprietary x86 PC BIOS.  There’s nothing 
you’d learn from it that you wouldn’t learn from studying XP booting on any 
other PC.

Windows XP on XO-1.5 was made available in a dual-boot configuration, 
supporting Sugar and XP.  That work was done by OLPC, mainly by Mitch Bradley 
and me, and the system booted from Open Firmware.  The Open Firmware work 
consisted of adding support for required PC BIOS interfaces, and much of the 
rest of the technical work involved supporting Microsoft’s modifications to 
allow XP to be booted from removable media (a card in the external SD slot).  
Microsoft did not support booting XP from removable media, and at the time the 
XO-1.5 was the only machine that could do so - as far as I know, that’s still 
the case.  But there is nothing to learn there other than how Mitch and I 
implemented Microsoft’s cryptic and often unhelpful suggestions to get it to 
work.  In particular, XP on the XO-1.5 is locked to a specific SD card 
signature so no other make and/or model of SD card would boot.  Reasonable 
effort went into that fairly useless exercise.

And as Paul says, in each case these machines were made available for initial 
trials by a specific customer and were never generally available or widely 
produced.

- Ed

> On Jan 27, 2015, at 2:08 PM, Paul Fox  wrote:
> 
> please post messages with descriptive subject lines.
> 
> lucia wrote:
>> Hi:
>> 
>> I subscribe to Mike's question.
>> "Don't hate me people, but I am also interested in finding a copy of Windows
>>> XP for XO-1 to try and learn about how it works and loads on the XO.
>>> Thanks,"
> 
> windows for the XO-1 was never publicly available, and was never 
> deployed beyond initial trials by the customer who wanted it.
> 
>> 
>> Furthermore, (sorry for the pro's here):  I understand that Sugar GUI sits
>> on top of Linux OS, but if somebody wants to develop something in a Windows
>> 8.1 environment (I'm not a converted to Microsoft  or any other OS), does
>> he/she have to go back to the command line?
> 
> i don't really understand the question, but if you want to know how to
> do sugar development on non-OLPC platforms, you should ask on the
> sugar mailing list:
>http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> 
> paul
> 
> =-
> paul fox, p...@laptop.org
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Thoughts on Windows 8 UI / touchscreen UIs which could also apply to Sugar on tablets

[Christoph Derndorfer]

Hi all,

I stumbled across this article called "Why Windows 8 Is Fundamentally Flawed
as a Response to the iPad" (
http://daringfireball.net/2011/06/windows_8_fundamentally_flawed). I think
some of the things that are being said there could also apply to Sugar
running on tablets and actually ties in very well with some of the related
discussions I had with C. Scott and Bert in Uruguay.

To me the key phrase in the article can be found in the last paragraph where
it says:

"Apple’s radical notion is that touchscreen personal computers should make
severely different tradeoffs than traditional computers — and that you can’t
design one system that does it all."

Definitely some good food for thought in my opinion...

Cheers,
Christoph

-- 
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co-editor, olpcnews
url: www.olpcnews.com
e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com
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Sugar - wish it could clean up multiple windows per session

[Mikus Grinbergs]

> Sugar expects that activities
> create _one_ window during their lifetime.

I've had good luck launching various Linux applications from Terminal.
But many of these applications open *more* than one window.  It is less
of a problem starting from sugar-0.90 (multiple windows can co-exist on
the same screen) - but from time to time an application might terminate
yet leave behind an ICON in the frame (top edge, right half).

The result can be non-functional gray circles in frame.  Or worse -- an
icon put up by the application onto which Sugar has affixed a palette
with only the word 'Starting' -- I've encountered some of those which
*never* timed out -- that palette should include an 'Exit this' entry.


It is all well and good to expect that "leftover crumbs" should be taken
care of *automatically*.  But I'm a believer in letting the *user*
decide "enough is enough".  I WISH that there were a way for the user to
explicitly get rid of unwanted created-for/by-an-application icons in
frame (and thereby also destruct the represented window).

mikus

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Re: [IAEP] sugar live cd for windows

[Kevin Cole]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 11:53, Kevin Cole  wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 13:59, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Wish to ask you for pointers to improve the performance of SocialCalc
>> activity while running it on Sugar Live CD for Windows. SocialCalc works
>> very well on the native installation of Sugar. Please suggest.
>
> Hi,
>
> I just wanted to clarify a possible source of confusion in your choice
> of wording.
>
> A "Live" CD doesn't run "on" anything, generally speaking.  It implies
> a CD which you boot the entire operating system from.  To the best of
> my knowledge there are no Live Windows Sugar CD's.

Just a P.S.: I believe there may be a handful of diagnostic / recovery
CD's that are Windows-based and bootable, though very restricted in
what they do.  But Live Windows CD's that do more than recover or
install Windows, I've not heard of such.

-- 
Ubuntu Linux DC LoCo
Washington, DC
http://dc.ubuntu-us.org/
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Re: [IAEP] sugar live cd for windows

[Tim McNamara]

2009/10/17 Kevin Cole 

> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 13:59, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Wish to ask you for pointers to improve the performance of SocialCalc
> > activity while running it on Sugar Live CD for Windows. SocialCalc works
> > very well on the native installation of Sugar. Please suggest.
>
> Hi,
>
> I just wanted to clarify a possible source of confusion in your choice
> of wording.
>
> A "Live" CD doesn't run "on" anything, generally speaking.  It implies
> a CD which you boot the entire operating system from.  To the best of
> my knowledge there are no Live Windows Sugar CD's.
>

This perception that the SoaS or a LiveCD runs on or for Windows is not an
isolated case: https://answers.launchpad.net/soas/+question/85331


timClicks
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Re: [IAEP] sugar live cd for windows

[James Cameron]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 11:53:03AM -0400, Kevin Cole wrote:
> A "Live" CD doesn't run "on" anything, generally speaking.  It implies
> a CD which you boot the entire operating system from.  To the best of
> my knowledge there are no Live Windows Sugar CD's.

This users' perspective is not unusual ... if a user believes they have
Microsoft Windows on their computer, and you give them a CD and ask them
to restart their computer ... afterward nothing seems to have changed.

Since running the CD doesn't *remove* Microsoft Windows their computer
remains Microsoft Windows based.

Only users who know what an operating system is and where it exists (on
disk permanently vs in memory temporarily) can fully appreciate the
complexity.

It would be technically possible to have a Microsoft Windows Live CD,
but last I heard the copyright owner and licensor don't permit this
method of deployment.  I'm no expert in that product.

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: [IAEP] sugar live cd for windows

[Kevin Cole]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 13:59, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Wish to ask you for pointers to improve the performance of SocialCalc
> activity while running it on Sugar Live CD for Windows. SocialCalc works
> very well on the native installation of Sugar. Please suggest.

Hi,

I just wanted to clarify a possible source of confusion in your choice
of wording.

A "Live" CD doesn't run "on" anything, generally speaking.  It implies
a CD which you boot the entire operating system from.  To the best of
my knowledge there are no Live Windows Sugar CD's.

So, it' is just a Sugar Live CD.  It runs Linux underneath Sugar. When
it is booted, it is temporarily replacing all of Windows, not "for"
Windows.  If I put the same Sugar Live CD in my Linux computer, then
boot, it replaces my hard drive's version of Linux with the CD version
of Linux until I remove the CD and reboot.

I hope that helps you with your question a little.
-- 
Ubuntu Linux DC LoCo
Washington, DC
http://dc.ubuntu-us.org/
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Re: [IAEP] sugar live cd for windows

[Manusheel Gupta]

Tomeu,

It would be great to have the XO-LiveCD perform at par with the other Sugar
distributions. I surely have an interest in the performance of all Sugar
distributions.

Regards,

Manu

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 12:47 AM, Tomeu Vizoso  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 20:13, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
> > Tomeu,
> >
> > Thank you for the pointer.
> >
> > Yes, we have tried running SocialCalc on Sugar with SoaS as the Sugar
> > distribution. Works pretty well. We'll look into the other distributions
> as
> > recommended.
>
> Ok, so if performance is better on SoaS than in XO-LiveCD, then we
> have a clue about where to investigate. Do you have a big interest in
> using XO-LiveCD ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Tomeu
>
> > Regards,
> >
> > Manu
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 12:23 AM, Tomeu Vizoso 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 19:45, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
> >> > Tomeu,
> >> >
> >> > My apologies for the typo.
> >> >
> >> > I meant Live CD for running Sugar on Windows. We downloaded it from
> >> > ftp://www.rohrmoser-engineering.de/pub/XO-LiveCD/XO-LiveCD_090722.iso.
> >>
> >> I confess not having tried it out, but AFAIK that's a normal linux
> >> live image. So you don't run windows when you boot that .iso, just
> >> linux.
> >>
> >> Have you tried other linux live images containing Sugar? There's SoaS,
> >> Trisquel, OpenSUSE, etc. See in the wiki for links and instructions.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Tomeu
> >>
> >> > Regards,
> >> >
> >> > Manu
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Tomeu Vizoso 
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 18:59, Manusheel Gupta 
> wrote:
> >> >> > Dear all,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Wish to ask you for pointers to improve the performance of
> SocialCalc
> >> >> > activity while running it on Sugar Live CD for Windows. SocialCalc
> >> >> > works
> >> >> > very well on the native installation of Sugar. Please suggest.
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Manu,
> >> >>
> >> >> can you clarify what do you mean by a Live CD for Windows?
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >>
> >> >> Tomeu
> >> >>
> >> >> > Regards,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Manu
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -- Forwarded message --
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Manu,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I successfully installed Social Calc using the Sugar Live CD.  The
> >> >> > only
> >> >> > issue was that SocialCalc didn't show up in my activity list until
> I
> >> >> > restarted Sugar.
> >> >> > The response of Sugar is a bit sluggish (which also affects
> >> >> > SocialCalc).
> >> >> >  It's easier to learn a new system when the system's feedback to
> >> >> > actions
> >> >> > is
> >> >> > fast and time-consistent.  I would guess that this is not a problem
> >> >> > with
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > native installation.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ___
> >> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> >> >> > i...@lists.sugarlabs.org
> >> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
> >> >> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
> >> >> Farning
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
> >> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
> >> Farning
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
> Farning
>
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Re: [IAEP] sugar live cd for windows

[Tomeu Vizoso]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 20:13, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
> Tomeu,
>
> Thank you for the pointer.
>
> Yes, we have tried running SocialCalc on Sugar with SoaS as the Sugar
> distribution. Works pretty well. We'll look into the other distributions as
> recommended.

Ok, so if performance is better on SoaS than in XO-LiveCD, then we
have a clue about where to investigate. Do you have a big interest in
using XO-LiveCD ?

Regards,

Tomeu

> Regards,
>
> Manu
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 12:23 AM, Tomeu Vizoso  wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 19:45, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
>> > Tomeu,
>> >
>> > My apologies for the typo.
>> >
>> > I meant Live CD for running Sugar on Windows. We downloaded it from
>> > ftp://www.rohrmoser-engineering.de/pub/XO-LiveCD/XO-LiveCD_090722.iso .
>>
>> I confess not having tried it out, but AFAIK that's a normal linux
>> live image. So you don't run windows when you boot that .iso, just
>> linux.
>>
>> Have you tried other linux live images containing Sugar? There's SoaS,
>> Trisquel, OpenSUSE, etc. See in the wiki for links and instructions.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tomeu
>>
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Manu
>> >
>> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Tomeu Vizoso 
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 18:59, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
>> >> > Dear all,
>> >> >
>> >> > Wish to ask you for pointers to improve the performance of SocialCalc
>> >> > activity while running it on Sugar Live CD for Windows. SocialCalc
>> >> > works
>> >> > very well on the native installation of Sugar. Please suggest.
>> >>
>> >> Hi Manu,
>> >>
>> >> can you clarify what do you mean by a Live CD for Windows?
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Tomeu
>> >>
>> >> > Regards,
>> >> >
>> >> > Manu
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -- Forwarded message --
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Manu,
>> >> >
>> >> > I successfully installed Social Calc using the Sugar Live CD.  The
>> >> > only
>> >> > issue was that SocialCalc didn't show up in my activity list until I
>> >> > restarted Sugar.
>> >> > The response of Sugar is a bit sluggish (which also affects
>> >> > SocialCalc).
>> >> >  It's easier to learn a new system when the system's feedback to
>> >> > actions
>> >> > is
>> >> > fast and time-consistent.  I would guess that this is not a problem
>> >> > with
>> >> > a
>> >> > native installation.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ___
>> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> >> > i...@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
>> >> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
>> >> Farning
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
>> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
>> Farning
>
>



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What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
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Re: [IAEP] sugar live cd for windows

[Manusheel Gupta]

Tomeu,

Thank you for the pointer.

Yes, we have tried running SocialCalc on Sugar with SoaS as the Sugar
distribution. Works pretty well. We'll look into the other distributions as
recommended.

Regards,

Manu



On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 12:23 AM, Tomeu Vizoso  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 19:45, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
> > Tomeu,
> >
> > My apologies for the typo.
> >
> > I meant Live CD for running Sugar on Windows. We downloaded it from
> > ftp://www.rohrmoser-engineering.de/pub/XO-LiveCD/XO-LiveCD_090722.iso .
>
> I confess not having tried it out, but AFAIK that's a normal linux
> live image. So you don't run windows when you boot that .iso, just
> linux.
>
> Have you tried other linux live images containing Sugar? There's SoaS,
> Trisquel, OpenSUSE, etc. See in the wiki for links and instructions.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tomeu
>
> > Regards,
> >
> > Manu
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Tomeu Vizoso 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 18:59, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
> >> > Dear all,
> >> >
> >> > Wish to ask you for pointers to improve the performance of SocialCalc
> >> > activity while running it on Sugar Live CD for Windows. SocialCalc
> works
> >> > very well on the native installation of Sugar. Please suggest.
> >>
> >> Hi Manu,
> >>
> >> can you clarify what do you mean by a Live CD for Windows?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Tomeu
> >>
> >> > Regards,
> >> >
> >> > Manu
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -- Forwarded message --
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Manu,
> >> >
> >> > I successfully installed Social Calc using the Sugar Live CD.  The
> only
> >> > issue was that SocialCalc didn't show up in my activity list until I
> >> > restarted Sugar.
> >> > The response of Sugar is a bit sluggish (which also affects
> SocialCalc).
> >> >  It's easier to learn a new system when the system's feedback to
> actions
> >> > is
> >> > fast and time-consistent.  I would guess that this is not a problem
> with
> >> > a
> >> > native installation.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ___
> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> >> > i...@lists.sugarlabs.org
> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
> >> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
> >> Farning
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
> Farning
>
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Re: [IAEP] sugar live cd for windows

[Tomeu Vizoso]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 19:45, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
> Tomeu,
>
> My apologies for the typo.
>
> I meant Live CD for running Sugar on Windows. We downloaded it from
> ftp://www.rohrmoser-engineering.de/pub/XO-LiveCD/XO-LiveCD_090722.iso .

I confess not having tried it out, but AFAIK that's a normal linux
live image. So you don't run windows when you boot that .iso, just
linux.

Have you tried other linux live images containing Sugar? There's SoaS,
Trisquel, OpenSUSE, etc. See in the wiki for links and instructions.

Regards,

Tomeu

> Regards,
>
> Manu
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Tomeu Vizoso  wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 18:59, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > Wish to ask you for pointers to improve the performance of SocialCalc
>> > activity while running it on Sugar Live CD for Windows. SocialCalc works
>> > very well on the native installation of Sugar. Please suggest.
>>
>> Hi Manu,
>>
>> can you clarify what do you mean by a Live CD for Windows?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tomeu
>>
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Manu
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -- Forwarded message --
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Manu,
>> >
>> > I successfully installed Social Calc using the Sugar Live CD.  The only
>> > issue was that SocialCalc didn't show up in my activity list until I
>> > restarted Sugar.
>> > The response of Sugar is a bit sluggish (which also affects SocialCalc).
>> >  It's easier to learn a new system when the system's feedback to actions
>> > is
>> > fast and time-consistent.  I would guess that this is not a problem with
>> > a
>> > native installation.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> > i...@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
>> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
>> Farning
>
>



-- 
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What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
Farning
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Re: [IAEP] sugar live cd for windows

[Manusheel Gupta]

Tomeu,

My apologies for the typo.

I meant Live CD for running Sugar on Windows. We downloaded it from
ftp://www.rohrmoser-engineering.de/pub/XO-LiveCD/XO-LiveCD_090722.iso .

Regards,

Manu

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Tomeu Vizoso  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 18:59, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Wish to ask you for pointers to improve the performance of SocialCalc
> > activity while running it on Sugar Live CD for Windows. SocialCalc works
> > very well on the native installation of Sugar. Please suggest.
>
> Hi Manu,
>
> can you clarify what do you mean by a Live CD for Windows?
>
> Regards,
>
> Tomeu
>
> > Regards,
> >
> > Manu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- Forwarded message --
> >
> >
> >
> > Manu,
> >
> > I successfully installed Social Calc using the Sugar Live CD.  The only
> > issue was that SocialCalc didn't show up in my activity list until I
> > restarted Sugar.
> > The response of Sugar is a bit sluggish (which also affects SocialCalc).
> >  It's easier to learn a new system when the system's feedback to actions
> is
> > fast and time-consistent.  I would guess that this is not a problem with
> a
> > native installation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> > i...@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
> >
>
>
>
> --
> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
> Farning
>
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Re: [IAEP] sugar live cd for windows

[Tomeu Vizoso]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 18:59, Manusheel Gupta  wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Wish to ask you for pointers to improve the performance of SocialCalc
> activity while running it on Sugar Live CD for Windows. SocialCalc works
> very well on the native installation of Sugar. Please suggest.

Hi Manu,

can you clarify what do you mean by a Live CD for Windows?

Regards,

Tomeu

> Regards,
>
> Manu
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
>
>
>
> Manu,
>
> I successfully installed Social Calc using the Sugar Live CD.  The only
> issue was that SocialCalc didn't show up in my activity list until I
> restarted Sugar.
> The response of Sugar is a bit sluggish (which also affects SocialCalc).
>  It's easier to learn a new system when the system's feedback to actions is
> fast and time-consistent.  I would guess that this is not a problem with a
> native installation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> i...@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>



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What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
Farning
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sugar live cd for windows

[Manusheel Gupta]

Dear all,

Wish to ask you for pointers to improve the performance of SocialCalc
activity while running it on Sugar Live CD for Windows. SocialCalc works
very well on the native installation of Sugar. Please suggest.

Regards,

Manu





-- Forwarded message --



Manu,

I successfully installed Social Calc using the Sugar Live CD.  The only
issue was that SocialCalc didn't show up in my activity list until I
restarted Sugar.
The response of Sugar is a bit sluggish (which also affects SocialCalc).
 It's easier to learn a new system when the system's feedback to actions is
fast and time-consistent.  I would guess that this is not a problem with a
native installation.
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Re: Windows on the XO (was: Re: Devel Digest, Vol 41, Issue 41)

[Sean DALY]

My understanding is that although Windows is available, there have
been no sales; deployments have preferred Sugar.


On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Sascha
Silbe wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 07:45:58AM -1000, Mitch Bradley wrote:
>
>>> """
>>> For this reason, Sugar needs a wider basis, to run on more Linux
>>> platforms and to run under
>>> Windows. We have been engaged in discussions with Microsoft for several
>>> months, to explore a
>>> dual boot version of the XO. Some of you have seen what Microsoft
>>> developed on their own for
>>> the XO. It works well and now needs Sugar on top of it (so to speak).
>>> """
>>
>> That quotation is entirely correct according to my understanding.
>
> Sure it is. But it omits the entire reasoning (BIOS vs. Open Firmware ->
> Linux/Sugar won't work anymore) for spending OLPC resources on getting
> Windows to run on the XO-1.
>
> But it doesn't really matter much as Charles Kane makes it clear in todays
> interview [1] that OLPC is now actually selling XOs with Windows on them:
>
> """
> After the success and the impact we have had [Bill Gates] would take it very
> seriously now and we have an agreement with Microsoft so we are selling
> Windows XP as part of our dual-boot offering with the computer.
> """
>
>
> [1] http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,25843285-24169,00.html
>
> CU Sascha
>
> --
> http://sascha.silbe.org/
> http://www.infra-silbe.de/
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJKbu0/AAoJELpz82VMF3DaqnoIAJzywyGX2hKRg3la1Gmdtp5b
> BGqx5xHuo3Eh5zM7jV68wK9+oLxzdpCkXZydalLJrD3yK0SWUACPtlXUYvXj3ecE
> KGrXtoLB1vNFU7WRqD2ICta30zdqgvYqMc1oa63JGYhJFSmQS6hSKI/5hoiOsPp6
> KOwV6h1/xjnCgD1GQqMC/j60jZDbCuXnFTbOUXOo5PMRed56S1XaChTnYmHXhhm6
> ze051qKVMKRoaIxm+Fpf6vwgymGCIpbY28aMZVHu4fkqihvSVpQJfG/58ME5yYv9
> 9nELomLfp8vDBTksy8SWTbAh6YqPKYv8JYkL2jkfCCUsTq0vv9NZCalR4hKqVYw=
> =LPTl
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: Windows on the XO (was: Re: Devel Digest, Vol 41, Issue 41)

[James Cameron]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 02:21:22PM +0200, Sascha Silbe wrote:
> But it doesn't really matter much as Charles Kane makes it clear in
> todays interview [1] 

It was last week, actually.

> ... that OLPC is now actually selling XOs with Windows on them:
> 
> """
> After the success and the impact we have had [Bill Gates] would take
> it very seriously now and we have an agreement with Microsoft so we
> are selling Windows XP as part of our dual-boot offering with the
> computer.

Sure, fine, but who is buying?  I know of no deployments that have
chosen this configuration.  Perhaps you misunderstand what "selling"
means.  It doesn't mean a sale has completed.  That would be "sold".
I'm taking this to mean it is orderable.

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Windows on the XO (was: Re: Devel Digest, Vol 41, Issue 41)

[Sascha Silbe]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 07:45:58AM -1000, Mitch Bradley wrote:


"""
For this reason, Sugar needs a wider basis, to run on more Linux 
platforms and to run under
Windows. We have been engaged in discussions with Microsoft for 
several months, to explore a
dual boot version of the XO. Some of you have seen what Microsoft 
developed on their own for

the XO. It works well and now needs Sugar on top of it (so to speak).
"""

That quotation is entirely correct according to my understanding.
Sure it is. But it omits the entire reasoning (BIOS vs. Open Firmware -> 
Linux/Sugar won't work anymore) for spending OLPC resources on getting 
Windows to run on the XO-1.


But it doesn't really matter much as Charles Kane makes it clear in 
todays interview [1] that OLPC is now actually selling XOs with Windows 
on them:


"""
After the success and the impact we have had [Bill Gates] would take it 
very seriously now and we have an agreement with Microsoft so we are 
selling Windows XP as part of our dual-boot offering with the computer.

"""


[1] 
http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,25843285-24169,00.html


CU Sascha

--
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http://www.infra-silbe.de/

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Christoph Derndorfer]

Oh, and just in case anybody hasn't see it yet, Ivan Krstic published a blog
post well worth reading yesterday: "Sweet nonsense omelet" -
http://radian.org/notebook/nonsense-omelet

Christoph

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Christoph Derndorfer <
christoph.derndor...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Same here, I wrote a short article (mainly around Mitch's e-mail and my
> take of things) for olpcnews.
>
> However due to scheduling constraints it will only be published next week.
>
> Christoph
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Bastien wrote:
>
>> Bastien  writes:
>>
>> > Thanks *very much* for these explanations.
>> >
>> > I hope this kind of information can find its way through the OLPC blog,
>> > maybe with a little more context.  Then we can fight the FUD by linking
>> > to these explanations.
>>
>> I've just written an entry about this on OLPC France's blog:
>>
>>
>> http://olpc-france.org/blog/2009/07/sugar-mauvaise-presse-et-mise-au-point/
>>
>> Sorry, this is in french and I don't have time to translate it now.
>> But basically it tries to do this:
>>
>> 1. to clarify what is Sugar;
>>
>> 2. to explain what was the process of developing it for the XO, then for
>>   any hardware -- this explanation giving hints on why (1) is sometimes
>>   hard to understand and why NN comment needs clarification;
>>
>> 3. to tell (again) what is OLPC/Microsoft all about.
>>
>> I have pointed to some of the messages from this list.  I hope this post
>> can help in getting rid of disinformation.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>>  Bastien
>> ___
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>> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Christoph Derndorfer
> co-editor, olpcnews
> url: www.olpcnews.com
> e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com
>



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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Christoph Derndorfer]

Same here, I wrote a short article (mainly around Mitch's e-mail and my take
of things) for olpcnews.

However due to scheduling constraints it will only be published next week.

Christoph

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Bastien wrote:

> Bastien  writes:
>
> > Thanks *very much* for these explanations.
> >
> > I hope this kind of information can find its way through the OLPC blog,
> > maybe with a little more context.  Then we can fight the FUD by linking
> > to these explanations.
>
> I've just written an entry about this on OLPC France's blog:
>
>
> http://olpc-france.org/blog/2009/07/sugar-mauvaise-presse-et-mise-au-point/
>
> Sorry, this is in french and I don't have time to translate it now.
> But basically it tries to do this:
>
> 1. to clarify what is Sugar;
>
> 2. to explain what was the process of developing it for the XO, then for
>   any hardware -- this explanation giving hints on why (1) is sometimes
>   hard to understand and why NN comment needs clarification;
>
> 3. to tell (again) what is OLPC/Microsoft all about.
>
> I have pointed to some of the messages from this list.  I hope this post
> can help in getting rid of disinformation.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
>  Bastien
> ___
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> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>



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url: www.olpcnews.com
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Bastien  writes:

> Thanks *very much* for these explanations.
>
> I hope this kind of information can find its way through the OLPC blog,
> maybe with a little more context.  Then we can fight the FUD by linking
> to these explanations.

I've just written an entry about this on OLPC France's blog:

  http://olpc-france.org/blog/2009/07/sugar-mauvaise-presse-et-mise-au-point/

Sorry, this is in french and I don't have time to translate it now.  
But basically it tries to do this:

1. to clarify what is Sugar;

2. to explain what was the process of developing it for the XO, then for
   any hardware -- this explanation giving hints on why (1) is sometimes
   hard to understand and why NN comment needs clarification;

3. to tell (again) what is OLPC/Microsoft all about.

I have pointed to some of the messages from this list.  I hope this post
can help in getting rid of disinformation.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Albert Cahalan]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Sameer Verma wrote:

>> This is largely because you aren't doing normal Linux development.
>
> "Normal". Now there's a term that's relative. Is GNOME normal? Or is it KDE?
> Or XFCE, LXDE? Enlightenment, maybe?

For this purpose: all of the above plus FVWM and probably
even Ratpoison, the mouse-free window manager. They are
quite compatible; I can run nearly all GNOME apps on KDE
and nearly all KDE apps on GNOME.

The development effort blamed on Linux is actually caused
by abandoning all the typical Linux compatibility.

> My daughter, who is almost 4 takes to Sugar quite easily, but will not
> bother with GNOME on my desktop at home. I was amazed at how easily
> she took to playing Implode on the XO in under 5 minutes. I realize that
> its a statistic of 1

Not that I was intending to suggest anything at all about the user
experience (my comment was strictly developer oriented) but...

I've seen the exact opposite. Kids seem to tolerate GNOME.
They lose things in Sugar, and they hate the slowness.
These are kids without much computer experience, and most
of that being on a computer with roughly XO-class hardware.
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Edward Cherlin]

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Carlos Nazareno wrote:
> Hey all.
>
> Check out the latest piece:
> Negroponte Sees Sugar As OLPC's Biggest Mistake
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/07/20/1628228
>
> (The title is bad FUD from OLPC News -- it's actually Negroponte
> saying that Sugar should have been run as an application instead of
> the main OS layer/frontend and not Sugar itself as the mistake.)

Most of Slashdot is FUD, even if the headline is correct. I have
replied to several such stories about OLPC/Sugar and about other
important topics, on Slashdot and elsewhere, and you are all free to
quote me on this one. I've given up on Slashdot, since all but one of
my factual posts has been modded down to 1. I conclude that Slashdot
readers, like many in the political world, don't want to be distracted
from setting the world straight by facts.

http://xkcd.com/386/ Duty Calls

site:slashdot.org mokurai
#
Slashdot | One Laptop Per Child and Intel Join Forces
Re:OLPC is a project - Classmate is a device... by jabuzz (Score:2)
Friday July 13, @03:55PM; Re:OLPC is a project - Classmate is a
device... by Mokurai ...
hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/07/13/1646218.shtml - Cached - Similar -
#
Slashdot | Attempts to Count Linux Users Remain Pointless
Re:Start counting here by vimh42 (Score:1) Monday July 09, @12:10PM;
Re:Start counting here by Mokurai (Score:1) Friday July 13, @05:22PM
...
linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/07/09/1424259.shtml - Cached - Similar -
#
Slashdot | Open Voting at OSCON
Re:Modest proposal: Run it on Diebold's hardware? by Mokurai (Score:1)
Thursday April 22 2004, @06:05PM. Re:Modest proposal: Run it on
Diebold's hardware? ...
slashdot.org/articles/04/04/22/1913223.shtml - Similar -
#
Slashdot | President Of India Advocates OSS
... @10:18PM; OSS in home of Simputer by Mokurai (Score:1) Thursday
May 29 2003, @11:05PM; I2IT and IIIT by shamir_k (Score:1) Friday May
30 2003, @12:40AM ...
slashdot.org/articles/03/05/29/1226247.shtml?tid... - Cached - Similar -
#
Slashdot | Why Unicode Won't Work on the Internet
... (Score:1) Saturday June 09 2001, @01:04PM; Unicode character
allocation (was Unicode's reply) by Mokurai (Score:1) Thursday June 07
2001, @03:19PM ...
slashdot.org/mainpage/01/05/20/1431230.shtml?tid=95 - Cached - Similar -
#
Slashdot | Celebrating Spam's Ten-Year Anniversary
Re:The only solution to spam by Mokurai (Score:1) Friday March 05
2004, @03:03PM. when it's 20 by va3atc (Score:2) Friday March 05 2004,
@01:11PM ...
slashdot.org/articles/04/03/05/160229.shtml - Cached - Similar -
#
Slashdot | Diebold Voting Systems Grossly Insecure
Diebold Voting Systems Grossly Insecure -- article related to Bug and
United States.
it.slashdot.org/it/03/07/24/153258.shtml - Similar -

> Now everytime there's a piece on OLPC at Slashdot.org, it seems 30% of
> the comment traffic is composed of bashing OLPC for caving in to
> Microsoft and Windows.
>
> Now AFAIK, there's little to no Windows work being done in-house by
> the OLPC team, and it's all or mostly at Microsoft's side that the
> work's being done.
>
> And AFAIK, the deal is that "you buy the machine, you're free to run
> any software you want on it. We're not stopping you from running
> Windows even though we're pushing Sugar."
>
> In this case, OLPC is not really in bed with MS but is more of
> allowing MS to run Windows on the OLPC the same way users can install
> any software they want on their PCs.
>
> Am I correct in this assumption?
>
> I'm sick and tired of the this OLPC-MS FUD (Fear-Uncertainty-Doubt) on
> Slashdot (one of the highest-traffic websites, so high that getting
> linked on the frontpage is like being DDOSed) and it would be great if
> the record on this could be set straight so that the MS FUD inanity on
> Slashdot can be ended as it's destroying the image of OLPC.
>
> All the best,
>
> -Naz
>
> --
> carlos nazareno
> http://twitter.com/object404
> http://www.object404.com
> --
> user group manager
> phlashers: philippine flash actionscripters
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Wiki fixin' (Re: Windows on XO FUD (was: Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?)

[S Page]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 4:54 AM, Sascha
Silbe wrote:

> Even the OLPC wiki contains links [1] to misleading reports [2] about
> Windows on the XO without any further, clarifying comment.
> ...
> [1] http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Dual-boot

Thanks for pointing this out.

== Basic Wiki tactics ==
*Always date wiki statements*!
"has announced", "today", "is working on", "end of the summer" are
awful phrases that later turn pages _harmful_ unless they are rooted
to a specific month and year.

*Before you write anything, assume there's _already_ a page*
Besides Dual-boot, there's
  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/AnnounceFAQ
  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/MS_FAQ
  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Windows

*Always categorize*
So people can find these other pages.

*Don't repeat, link and rewrite*
Everyone wants to say things their own way. Don't.  Just link to what
already exists.  If you don't like it, improve it with judicious
reorganization, limited additions, and rewriting.

== What I did ==
* I put the definitive lines
- - - -
  The OLPC laptop's firmware has "dual-boot capability". It can boot
into Windows XP as well as any Linux distribution, including OLPC's
own system software featuring the Sugar UI on Fedora Linux.

  As of July 2009, no large deployment of OLPC laptops is running Windows.
- - - -
at the top of the Windows article.

* Linked to Mitch Bradley's excellent e-mail.
* Moved the blather at the top of the Windows article to "Announcements"
* Moved the blather in the Dual-boot article to "Various statements
and articles from 2008"
* added [[Category:MS-Windows]] to all these pages.

== To Do ==
* Update Dual-boot with actual technical details from Mitch's e-mail
(unless they're already on the wiki).
* Rewrite all the dated "will"... summer stuff from the MS_FAQ and add
the actual reality of dual-booting.
* Cite and date "Message from Nicholas to the community lists" in AnnounceFAQ
* Merge anything worth keeping from AnnounceFAQ to MS FAQ, maybe
obsolete MS FAQ as well.
etc.

Cheers,
--
=S Page
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Sameer Verma]

[snipped]


> This is largely because you aren't doing normal Linux development.
>

"Normal". Now there's a term that's relative. Is GNOME normal? Or is it KDE?
Or XFCE, LXDE? Enlightenment, maybe? Sorry, but this approach does not fly.
Sugar is for a specific purpose. Using terms like "normal" only make it more
subjective.

My daughter, who is almost 4 takes to Sugar quite easily, but will not
bother with GNOME on my desktop at home. I was amazed at how easily she took
to playing Implode on the XO in under 5 minutes. I realize that its a
statistic of 1, but having seen the same behavior in so many other children
has only strengthend my support for Sugar as a platform for children.

cheers,
Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Information Systems
San Francisco State University
San Francisco CA 94132 USA
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://opensource.sfsu.edu/
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Paul Fox]

albert wrote:
 > Ed McNierney writes:
 > 
 > > We've tried many times to make the very simple story about Windows
 > > support on the XO clear.  The conspiracy theorists don't really care.
 > > If you don't live in a fact-based universe, facts are irrelevant.
 > > Mitch is quite right, but we've said just about all of that before to
 > > little effect.  OLPCNews and Slashdot thrive on controversy, not
 > > accurate reporting.  I don't have much hope that we're going to say
 > > something now that makes the "OLPC has switched to Windows" crowd
 > > suddenly realize they're wrong.
 > 
 > You're not being fair to them. Your message has big problems.
 > 
 > Some of us know our Microsoft history. Anything you say is now
 > tainted by that. There is a **long** history of evil tricks.
 > 
 > Really there is only one way to fix the message, and I don't expect it
 > to ever happen. NN himself needs to personally and publicly apologize
 > for the XP adventure, admitting that it was harmful to the mission.
 > Nobody else can usefully apologize on his behalf. He probably also needs
 > to push a normal Linux desktop to be believable, because currently XP is
 > the desktop solution for the XO.

can you explain "currently XP is the desktop solution for the
XO"?  on what basis are you making that claim?  because to my
knowledge, it simply isn't true.

paul


 > 
 > Finally, conspiracy theories are going to thrive whenever there is
 > a communication failure. OLPC decisionmaking is opaque, and decisions
 > have always been surprises. NN is simply not available to discuss
 > anything. Maybe you could get him on #olpc-devel twice a week or get
 > him to participate in two devel mailing list discussions per week.
 > People should feel that they know him like a Linus or Theo.
 > 
 > > Of course, Linux development is *far* more expensive for OLPC than
 > > Windows development is (and always has been), so if there were a way
 > > to convert all those Slashdot/OLPCNews typing fingers into volunteer
 > > coders it would be a nice improvement!
 > 
 > This is largely because you aren't doing normal Linux development.
 > Everything is custom. Porting from desktop Linux to MacOS is easier
 > than porting to the Sugar environment. For many apps, even a Windows
 > port is easier. Plain old Linux development is not unusually expensive.
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Albert Cahalan]

Ed McNierney writes:

> We've tried many times to make the very simple story about Windows
> support on the XO clear.  The conspiracy theorists don't really care.
> If you don't live in a fact-based universe, facts are irrelevant.
> Mitch is quite right, but we've said just about all of that before to
> little effect.  OLPCNews and Slashdot thrive on controversy, not
> accurate reporting.  I don't have much hope that we're going to say
> something now that makes the "OLPC has switched to Windows" crowd
> suddenly realize they're wrong.

You're not being fair to them. Your message has big problems.

Some of us know our Microsoft history. Anything you say is now
tainted by that. There is a **long** history of evil tricks.

Really there is only one way to fix the message, and I don't expect it
to ever happen. NN himself needs to personally and publicly apologize
for the XP adventure, admitting that it was harmful to the mission.
Nobody else can usefully apologize on his behalf. He probably also needs
to push a normal Linux desktop to be believable, because currently XP is
the desktop solution for the XO.

Finally, conspiracy theories are going to thrive whenever there is
a communication failure. OLPC decisionmaking is opaque, and decisions
have always been surprises. NN is simply not available to discuss
anything. Maybe you could get him on #olpc-devel twice a week or get
him to participate in two devel mailing list discussions per week.
People should feel that they know him like a Linus or Theo.

> Of course, Linux development is *far* more expensive for OLPC than
> Windows development is (and always has been), so if there were a way
> to convert all those Slashdot/OLPCNews typing fingers into volunteer
> coders it would be a nice improvement!

This is largely because you aren't doing normal Linux development.
Everything is custom. Porting from desktop Linux to MacOS is easier
than porting to the Sugar environment. For many apps, even a Windows
port is easier. Plain old Linux development is not unusually expensive.
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Walter Bender]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 7:53 AM, James Cameron wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 07:37:44AM -0400, Walter Bender wrote:
>> More seriously, I don't know if it is possible, but getting Nicholas
>> to stop making a "scrambled egg" out of the software stack with his
>> "omelet" analogy would go a long ways to reducing the confusion in the
>> media as well. His continued insistence that Sugar is an operating
>> system--the problem--is being spoken out of ignorance and does not
>> reflect well on either project.
>
> When talking to non-technical people, "operating system" means what they
> see on screen, the user interface.  I've not heard Nicholas on this, but
> going with the incorrect definition is probably a reasonable fallback
> plan ... take for example the word "hacker".

I agree that the short hand makes it easier when communicating to a
non-technical audience. But the problem is that Nicholas is using
Sugar as a basket word for everything software-related and keeps
repeating that if only if we had separated the OS concerns from the UI
design, everything would have worked out great.

It is fair to critique Sugar, but not fair to those, such as Mitch,
Richard, Chris, et al., who have worked so hard to get the hardware
running robustly to lump those efforts into the same basket and use
that as the basis of the critique.

Further, it should not be underestimated how much work even Microsoft
had to invest to get Windows running on the XO, even without power
management, mesh, security, etc. This stuff is hard.

> I was at Parkes Radiotelescope last weekend for an open day, relating
> to the site's involvement in the Apollo programme, hundreds of people
> strolling past to get a tour of the dish ... demonstrating with my wife
> Sugar on five OLPC XO-1 units ... and we frequently had to decline to go
> into details ... when asked what operating system, we would say
> something like "Sugar desktop on top of the Linux operating system" ...
> and this will no doubt be remembered as "Sugar".  We found about 25% of
> our visitors already used Sugar desktop on their kids.  Quite a select
> visitor group ... they had shown dedication to science and technology by
> travelling four to six hours by car to get there.
>
> Now, if it was a group of journalists, I'd have to be extra careful.

They are running Sugar... that is the user experience.

> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.linux.org.au/
>

-walter

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Windows on XO FUD (was: Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?)

[Sascha Silbe]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 07:21:59AM -0400, Ed McNierney wrote:

We've tried many times to make the very simple story about Windows  
support on the XO clear.  The conspiracy theorists don't really care.
Maybe "conspiracy theorists" don't care, but I do. Mitchs post cleared 
up a _lot_ for me (thanks, Mitch!).


Even the OLPC wiki contains links [1] to misleading reports [2] about 
Windows on the XO without any further, clarifying comment.

OLPCNews' quote of NN didn't make it clear [3] as well:

"""
For this reason, Sugar needs a wider basis, to run on more Linux 
platforms and to run under
Windows. We have been engaged in discussions with Microsoft for several 
months, to explore a
dual boot version of the XO. Some of you have seen what Microsoft 
developed on their own for

the XO. It works well and now needs Sugar on top of it (so to speak).
"""

The latter has been my main source of (mis)information regarding the 
Windows on XO matter - not some dubious newspaper report as those are 
known to get a lot of important facts wrong.



[1] http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Dual-boot
[2] 
http://gizmodo.com/5018780/first-footage-same-olpc-xo-boots-both-sugar-and-windows-xp
[3] 
http://www.olpcnews.com/people/negroponte/nicholas_negroponte_sugar_olpc.html


CU Sascha

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[James Cameron]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 07:37:44AM -0400, Walter Bender wrote:
> More seriously, I don't know if it is possible, but getting Nicholas
> to stop making a "scrambled egg" out of the software stack with his
> "omelet" analogy would go a long ways to reducing the confusion in the
> media as well. His continued insistence that Sugar is an operating
> system--the problem--is being spoken out of ignorance and does not
> reflect well on either project.

When talking to non-technical people, "operating system" means what they
see on screen, the user interface.  I've not heard Nicholas on this, but
going with the incorrect definition is probably a reasonable fallback
plan ... take for example the word "hacker".

I was at Parkes Radiotelescope last weekend for an open day, relating
to the site's involvement in the Apollo programme, hundreds of people
strolling past to get a tour of the dish ... demonstrating with my wife
Sugar on five OLPC XO-1 units ... and we frequently had to decline to go
into details ... when asked what operating system, we would say
something like "Sugar desktop on top of the Linux operating system" ...
and this will no doubt be remembered as "Sugar".  We found about 25% of
our visitors already used Sugar desktop on their kids.  Quite a select
visitor group ... they had shown dedication to science and technology by
travelling four to six hours by car to get there.

Now, if it was a group of journalists, I'd have to be extra careful.

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http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Ed McNierney]

Walter -

I figured I was pushing the envelope with Oswald :)

Yes, indeed - I think there's some hope of communicating more clearly  
that the XO-1 and XO-1.5 first have to work properly, and reliably,  
with sustainable power demands, before anyone can start debating what  
applications get run on those machines.

I'll see what I can do to transition NN from the omelet to puff pastry!

- Ed


On Jul 21, 2009, at 7:37 AM, Walter Bender wrote:

> Ed,
>
> Lee Harvey Oswald was part of an ensemble group. See:
>
> http://chnm.gmu.edu/digitalhistory/links/cached/introduction/link0.20.in-a-gadda-da-oswald_files/oswald.jpe
>
> More seriously, I don't know if it is possible, but getting Nicholas
> to stop making a "scrambled egg" out of the software stack with his
> "omelet" analogy would go a long ways to reducing the confusion in the
> media as well. His continued insistence that Sugar is an operating
> system--the problem--is being spoken out of ignorance and does not
> reflect well on either project. As you know better than most, the bulk
> of the software engineering effort at OLPC has been in support of
> getting the hardware to boot, drivers, security, power management,
> etc. All critical tasks, whether or not this is an education project.
> Sugar (or any other user-facing) bits have always been and still are
> almost entirely separate from these engineering necessities, as is
> content development and the bulk of the deployment work. (The points
> of overlap are in regard to managing some aspects of security and
> updates.)
>
> -walter
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 7:21 AM, Ed McNierney wrote:
>> Folks -
>> We've tried many times to make the very simple story about Windows  
>> support
>> on the XO clear.  The conspiracy theorists don't really care.  If  
>> you don't
>> live in a fact-based universe, facts are irrelevant.  Mitch is  
>> quite right,
>> but we've said just about all of that before to little effect.   
>> OLPCNews and
>> Slashdot thrive on controversy, not accurate reporting.  I don't  
>> have much
>> hope that we're going to say something now that makes the "OLPC has  
>> switched
>> to Windows" crowd suddenly realize they're wrong.
>> Of course, Linux development is *far* more expensive for OLPC than  
>> Windows
>> development is (and always has been), so if there were a way to  
>> convert all
>> those Slashdot/OLPCNews typing fingers into volunteer coders it  
>> would be a
>> nice improvement!
>> When we're finished clearing up the confusion about what OLPC is  
>> really
>> doing (and has been doing for a long time), we can move on to  
>> proving that
>> Apollo 11 really did land on the Moon, Barack Obama was indeed born  
>> in
>> Hawaii, and Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.
>> - Ed
>>
>> On Jul 21, 2009, at 5:50 AM, Christoph Derndorfer wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Martin Langhoff > >
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Christoph
>>> Derndorfer wrote:
>>>> Maybe I missed it before but I'm really very surprised that this  
>>>> is the
>>>> first time I'm hearing this angle of the story in such detail.  
>>>> IMHO it
>>>> would
>>>> have made a lot of sense for OLPC to say exactly what Mitch wrote  
>>>> here
>>>> when
>>>> the Microsoft s*** first hit the fan in May 2008.
>>>
>>> Ummm. ISTR public statements saying _exactly this_, though perhaps
>>> with less technical detail. Everyone was blinded by the "OMG MS!"
>>> effect that nobody actually applied neurons to the situation.
>>
>> These statements might have been made but very obviously OLPC and the
>> aligned community (incl. myself) didn't do all that great a job of
>> explaining what was really going on to the general public otherwise  
>> we
>> wouldn't be in a situation today were a lot of people including  
>> many FLOSS
>> enthusiasts still look at OLPC as having sold out to Microsoft in  
>> May 2008.
>>
>>> Around that time, I spoke in various public events and relayed  
>>> exactly
>>> that message. Some people understood the intent.
>>>
>>> That you don't know doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed...
>>
>> Hence why I wrote "Maybe I missed it..." ;-)
>>
>> Anyway, crying over split milk doesn't really move us forward.  
>> Let's learn
>> our lessons for the future and get back to work.
>>
>> Christoph
>> --
>> Christoph Derndorfer
>> co-editor, olpcnews
>> url: www.olpcnews.com
>> e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com
>> ___
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>> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Devel@lists.laptop.org
>> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>>
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Walter Bender]

Ed,

Lee Harvey Oswald was part of an ensemble group. See:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/digitalhistory/links/cached/introduction/link0.20.in-a-gadda-da-oswald_files/oswald.jpe

More seriously, I don't know if it is possible, but getting Nicholas
to stop making a "scrambled egg" out of the software stack with his
"omelet" analogy would go a long ways to reducing the confusion in the
media as well. His continued insistence that Sugar is an operating
system--the problem--is being spoken out of ignorance and does not
reflect well on either project. As you know better than most, the bulk
of the software engineering effort at OLPC has been in support of
getting the hardware to boot, drivers, security, power management,
etc. All critical tasks, whether or not this is an education project.
Sugar (or any other user-facing) bits have always been and still are
almost entirely separate from these engineering necessities, as is
content development and the bulk of the deployment work. (The points
of overlap are in regard to managing some aspects of security and
updates.)

-walter

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 7:21 AM, Ed McNierney wrote:
> Folks -
> We've tried many times to make the very simple story about Windows support
> on the XO clear.  The conspiracy theorists don't really care.  If you don't
> live in a fact-based universe, facts are irrelevant.  Mitch is quite right,
> but we've said just about all of that before to little effect.  OLPCNews and
> Slashdot thrive on controversy, not accurate reporting.  I don't have much
> hope that we're going to say something now that makes the "OLPC has switched
> to Windows" crowd suddenly realize they're wrong.
> Of course, Linux development is *far* more expensive for OLPC than Windows
> development is (and always has been), so if there were a way to convert all
> those Slashdot/OLPCNews typing fingers into volunteer coders it would be a
> nice improvement!
> When we're finished clearing up the confusion about what OLPC is really
> doing (and has been doing for a long time), we can move on to proving that
> Apollo 11 really did land on the Moon, Barack Obama was indeed born in
> Hawaii, and Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.
> - Ed
>
> On Jul 21, 2009, at 5:50 AM, Christoph Derndorfer wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Martin Langhoff 
> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Christoph
>> Derndorfer wrote:
>> > Maybe I missed it before but I'm really very surprised that this is the
>> > first time I'm hearing this angle of the story in such detail. IMHO it
>> > would
>> > have made a lot of sense for OLPC to say exactly what Mitch wrote here
>> > when
>> > the Microsoft s*** first hit the fan in May 2008.
>>
>> Ummm. ISTR public statements saying _exactly this_, though perhaps
>> with less technical detail. Everyone was blinded by the "OMG MS!"
>> effect that nobody actually applied neurons to the situation.
>
> These statements might have been made but very obviously OLPC and the
> aligned community (incl. myself) didn't do all that great a job of
> explaining what was really going on to the general public otherwise we
> wouldn't be in a situation today were a lot of people including many FLOSS
> enthusiasts still look at OLPC as having sold out to Microsoft in May 2008.
>
>> Around that time, I spoke in various public events and relayed exactly
>> that message. Some people understood the intent.
>>
>> That you don't know doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed...
>
> Hence why I wrote "Maybe I missed it..." ;-)
>
> Anyway, crying over split milk doesn't really move us forward. Let's learn
> our lessons for the future and get back to work.
>
> Christoph
> --
> Christoph Derndorfer
> co-editor, olpcnews
> url: www.olpcnews.com
> e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com
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>
>
> ___
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>
>



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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Ed McNierney  writes:

> When we're finished clearing up the confusion about what OLPC is really doing
> (and has been doing for a long time), we can move on to proving that Apollo 11
> really did land on the Moon, Barack Obama was indeed born in Hawaii, and Lee
> Harvey Oswald acted alone.

Point taken.  

Oh and please don't tell the Slashdot crowd that there is no trace of
Apollo 11 when looking at the moon from the Moon activity - otherwise
they will start looking for Obama-biography.xo.

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Ed McNierney  writes:

> When we're finished clearing up the confusion about what OLPC is really doing
> (and has been doing for a long time), we can move on to proving that Apollo 11
> really did land on the Moon, Barack Obama was indeed born in Hawaii, and Lee
> Harvey Oswald acted alone.

Point taken.  

Oh and please don't tell the Slashdot crowd that there is no trace of
Apollo 11 when looking at the moon from the Moon activity...

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Ed McNierney]

Folks -

We've tried many times to make the very simple story about Windows  
support on the XO clear.  The conspiracy theorists don't really care.   
If you don't live in a fact-based universe, facts are irrelevant.   
Mitch is quite right, but we've said just about all of that before to  
little effect.  OLPCNews and Slashdot thrive on controversy, not  
accurate reporting.  I don't have much hope that we're going to say  
something now that makes the "OLPC has switched to Windows" crowd  
suddenly realize they're wrong.


Of course, Linux development is *far* more expensive for OLPC than  
Windows development is (and always has been), so if there were a way  
to convert all those Slashdot/OLPCNews typing fingers into volunteer  
coders it would be a nice improvement!


When we're finished clearing up the confusion about what OLPC is  
really doing (and has been doing for a long time), we can move on to  
proving that Apollo 11 really did land on the Moon, Barack Obama was  
indeed born in Hawaii, and Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.


- Ed


On Jul 21, 2009, at 5:50 AM, Christoph Derndorfer wrote:

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Martin Langhoff > wrote:

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Christoph
Derndorfer wrote:
> Maybe I missed it before but I'm really very surprised that this  
is the
> first time I'm hearing this angle of the story in such detail.  
IMHO it would
> have made a lot of sense for OLPC to say exactly what Mitch wrote  
here when

> the Microsoft s*** first hit the fan in May 2008.

Ummm. ISTR public statements saying _exactly this_, though perhaps
with less technical detail. Everyone was blinded by the "OMG MS!"
effect that nobody actually applied neurons to the situation.

These statements might have been made but very obviously OLPC and  
the aligned community (incl. myself) didn't do all that great a job  
of explaining what was really going on to the general public  
otherwise we wouldn't be in a situation today were a lot of people  
including many FLOSS enthusiasts still look at OLPC as having sold  
out to Microsoft in May 2008.


Around that time, I spoke in various public events and relayed exactly
that message. Some people understood the intent.

That you don't know doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed...

Hence why I wrote "Maybe I missed it..." ;-)

Anyway, crying over split milk doesn't really move us forward. Let's  
learn our lessons for the future and get back to work.


Christoph
--
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co-editor, olpcnews
url: www.olpcnews.com
e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Martin Langhoff  writes:

> If you are going to wait or an official Linus Torvalds statement on
> things, you're going to wait a long time. Same with expecting SJ to
> write something up -- he doesn't answer my emails either :-)

Btw, linux was successful because Linus was paying attention to the
contributions of its users, and because he was actually maintaining 
a rich relationship with them.


A while ago, OLPC was advertizing a "Director of grassroots" job
opportunity -- who took this job?  Who is responsible for a rich
relationship between OLPC HQ and the grassroots?

When I saw this job announcement I thought it would actually be
something useful to have.  

For example in this case, this director would be able to deliver 
a strong message to the grassroots on how to deal with this FUD.

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Martin Langhoff  writes:

> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Bastien wrote:
>> Thanks.  But a blog entry would still look more official, and would have
>> more context explaining why those explanations are necessary.
>
> If you are going to wait or an official Linus Torvalds statement on
> things, you're going to wait a long time. Same with expecting SJ to
> write something up -- he doesn't answer my emails either :-)
>
> The not-so-hidden message from James, me and everyone is: to be an
> effective participant in this community, you have to *not* wait on
> others. Use non-blocking IO. Get stuff done.
>
> If we told you what to do, you wouldn't like it either ;-)

Well, you just told me what to do, right? :)

To make things clear: I'm doing all what I can to get things done
regarding this OLPC/MS-FUD issue.

My point is just to say that having an official blog entry would 
help a lot.

The two things are not incompatible.

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[James Cameron]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:12:42PM +0200, Bastien wrote:
> Thanks.  But a blog entry would still look more official, and would
> have more context explaining why those explanations are necessary.

I'm not able to help with that, sorry.  I'm only a volunteer, and do not
represent OLPC.

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Martin Langhoff]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Bastien wrote:
> Thanks.  But a blog entry would still look more official, and would have
> more context explaining why those explanations are necessary.

If you are going to wait or an official Linus Torvalds statement on
things, you're going to wait a long time. Same with expecting SJ to
write something up -- he doesn't answer my emails either :-)

The not-so-hidden message from James, me and everyone is: to be an
effective participant in this community, you have to *not* wait on
others. Use non-blocking IO. Get stuff done.

If we told you what to do, you wouldn't like it either ;-)



m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

James Cameron  writes:

> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:50:33AM +0200, Bastien wrote:
>> Mitch just posted useful information.  Still, having a link to a blog
>> post would help clarifying stuff.
>
> Here you go ...
>
> http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2009-July/025132.html
>
> Not exactly classical blog format, but very efficient, since the
> interface is SMTP rather than HTTP for posting.

Thanks.  But a blog entry would still look more official, and would have
more context explaining why those explanations are necessary.

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[James Cameron]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:50:33AM +0200, Bastien wrote:
> Mitch just posted useful information.  Still, having a link to a blog
> post would help clarifying stuff.

Here you go ...

http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2009-July/025132.html

Not exactly classical blog format, but very efficient, since the
interface is SMTP rather than HTTP for posting.

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Martin Langhoff]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Christoph
Derndorfer wrote:
> Hence why I wrote "Maybe I missed it..." ;-)

:-)

> Anyway, crying over split milk doesn't really move us forward. Let's learn
> our lessons for the future and get back to work.

100%. Motion wins.



m
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Christoph Derndorfer]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Martin Langhoff
wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Christoph
> Derndorfer wrote:
> > Maybe I missed it before but I'm really very surprised that this is the
> > first time I'm hearing this angle of the story in such detail. IMHO it
> would
> > have made a lot of sense for OLPC to say exactly what Mitch wrote here
> when
> > the Microsoft s*** first hit the fan in May 2008.
>
> Ummm. ISTR public statements saying _exactly this_, though perhaps
> with less technical detail. Everyone was blinded by the "OMG MS!"
> effect that nobody actually applied neurons to the situation.


These statements might have been made but very obviously OLPC and the
aligned community (incl. myself) didn't do all that great a job of
explaining what was really going on to the general public otherwise we
wouldn't be in a situation today were a lot of people including many FLOSS
enthusiasts still look at OLPC as having sold out to Microsoft in May 2008.

Around that time, I spoke in various public events and relayed exactly
> that message. Some people understood the intent.
>
> That you don't know doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed...


Hence why I wrote "Maybe I missed it..." ;-)

Anyway, crying over split milk doesn't really move us forward. Let's learn
our lessons for the future and get back to work.

Christoph
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Martin Langhoff]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Christoph
Derndorfer wrote:
> Maybe I missed it before but I'm really very surprised that this is the
> first time I'm hearing this angle of the story in such detail. IMHO it would
> have made a lot of sense for OLPC to say exactly what Mitch wrote here when
> the Microsoft s*** first hit the fan in May 2008.

Ummm. ISTR public statements saying _exactly this_, though perhaps
with less technical detail. Everyone was blinded by the "OMG MS!"
effect that nobody actually applied neurons to the situation.

Around that time, I spoke in various public events and relayed exactly
that message. Some people understood the intent.

That you don't know doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed...

cheers,



m
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Christoph Derndorfer  writes:

> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Bastien  wrote:
>
> Carlos Nazareno  writes:
>
> > I'm more than happy to post stuff, having a Slashdot account. I just
> > don't know what to post exactly as stuff is not yet clarified.
>
> Mitch just posted useful information.  Still, having a link to a blog
> post would help clarifying stuff.
>
> I hope I find the time to write an olpcnews story based on the information 
> that
> Mitch posted earlier.

That'd be great indeed!

> Maybe I missed it before but I'm really very surprised that this is the first
> time I'm hearing this angle of the story in such detail. IMHO it would have
> made a lot of sense for OLPC to say exactly what Mitch wrote here when the
> Microsoft s*** first hit the fan in May 2008.

+1

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

CC'ing SJ this time...

Bastien  writes:

> Thanks *very much* for these explanations.
>
> I hope this kind of information can find its way through the OLPC blog,
> maybe with a little more context.  Then we can fight the FUD by linking
> to these explanations.
>
> Coyping sj, as I think he's responsible for OLPC's blog, but I might be
> wrong about this.
>
> Mitch Bradley  writes:
>
>>>
>>> Now AFAIK, there's little to no Windows work being done in-house by
>>> the OLPC team, and it's all or mostly at Microsoft's side that the
>>> work's being done.
>>>   
>>
>> At the moment, OLPC is doing approximately zero work on Windows.  That 
>> wasn't true last year.  I spent several months last year making it 
>> possible to boot Windows from Open Firmware.  The reason I did that was 
>> to prevent Microsoft from "taking over" the XO machine.  Their plan was 
>> to purchase machines and instruct the factory to reflash their SPI FLASH 
>> boot ROM with a conventional BIOS - which would have prevented OLPC's 
>> Linux from working.  It would have been possible to boot a different 
>> Linux distro from that BIOS, but it would not have been bootable from 
>> NAND FLASH, the OLPC security would not have been available, OLPC's 
>> special power management would not have worked, and the OFW-resident 
>> management features like diagnostics and NAND update would have been 
>> lost.  Essentially it would have been a one-way ticket to Microsoft land.
>>
>> That one-way road was unacceptable to Nicholas.  He insisted that, if 
>> any machines were to be able to run Windows, they must be able to dual-boot.
>>
>> Microsoft already had the one-way solution working, with only the barest 
>> amount of involvement from the OLPC team - essentially, I answered a few 
>> questions that Microsoft's rep posed to me.  The time I spent doing that 
>> was comparable to the time I spent answering similar questions from 
>> people porting other operating systems, such as Minix, Plan 9, and ReactOS.
>>
>> The big chunks of time that I spent on Microsoft-related stuff were not 
>> to make Windows run on the XO - that was already a done deal.  I spent 
>> the time to enable OFW to dual-boot Windows and Linux, thus preventing 
>> "Windows only" XOs.
>>
>> That work paid off in another way for XO-1.5.  The ACPI infrastructure 
>> necessary to run Windows on XO-1 let us to use a more "standard" Linux 
>> kernel for XO-1.5.  That's good in that it helps our chances of meeting 
>> our tight schedule with our modest system software resources, and 
>> reduces the amount of upstream merging that we must do.  It's bad from 
>> the standpoint that XO-1.5 is looking more and more like a conventional 
>> PC, thus bringing it dangerously close to the "black hole" of the PC 
>> industry that sucks everything into the commodity ecosystem in which 
>> Intel has near-total control over the evolution of the system architecture.
>>
>> It's possible - even likely - that I will have to spend some time in the 
>> next few months to make Windows boot on XO-1.5.  I expect that will go 
>> quite quickly compared to the last effort, as the XO-1 work should carry 
>> over.
>>
>> Mitch
>>
>> ___
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>> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>>

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Martin Langhoff  writes:

> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Bastien wrote:
>> Carlos Nazareno  writes:
>>
>>> I'm more than happy to post stuff, having a Slashdot account. I just
>>> don't know what to post exactly as stuff is not yet clarified.
>>
>> Mitch just posted useful information.  Still, having a link to a blog
>> post would help clarifying stuff.
>
> Right! Do you have a blog? :-)

I meant: http://blog.laptop.org

PS: I might write a blog entry in french for OLPC France...

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Christoph Derndorfer]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Bastien wrote:

> Carlos Nazareno  writes:
>
> > I'm more than happy to post stuff, having a Slashdot account. I just
> > don't know what to post exactly as stuff is not yet clarified.
>
> Mitch just posted useful information.  Still, having a link to a blog
> post would help clarifying stuff.
>

I hope I find the time to write an olpcnews story based on the information
that Mitch posted earlier.

Maybe I missed it before but I'm really very surprised that this is the
first time I'm hearing this angle of the story in such detail. IMHO it would
have made a lot of sense for OLPC to say exactly what Mitch wrote here when
the Microsoft s*** first hit the fan in May 2008.

Christoph

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Martin Langhoff]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Bastien wrote:
> Carlos Nazareno  writes:
>
>> I'm more than happy to post stuff, having a Slashdot account. I just
>> don't know what to post exactly as stuff is not yet clarified.
>
> Mitch just posted useful information.  Still, having a link to a blog
> post would help clarifying stuff.

Right! Do you have a blog? :-)


m
-- 
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 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Martin Langhoff]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Bastien wrote:
> Sorry I meant: it's not worth trying to make everyone fix this
> communication bug.  But of course, individuals are welcome to fix it!

Ok.

>> Or maybe OLPC is a tiny *tiny* group of people, utterly swamped with
>> HW, SW, deployment efforts, manufacturing logistics, working with
>> governments, etc...?
>
> Yes - that's why I said that there were perhaps too many advice to sort
> out the relevant ones.

The good thing is that people feel very satisfied that they've given
their authoritative advise :-) -- the bad thing is that they give
advise because it's easier than getting something done.

cheers,



m
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Carlos Nazareno  writes:

> I'm more than happy to post stuff, having a Slashdot account. I just
> don't know what to post exactly as stuff is not yet clarified.

Mitch just posted useful information.  Still, having a link to a blog
post would help clarifying stuff.

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Martin Langhoff  writes:

> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Bastien wrote:
>> That's my point.  We can fix this issue by raising an army of small
>> hands that will vote on your (correct) slashdot comment, spread the
>> correct vision, etc.  Or we can hope that OLPC will fix this issue by
>> taking care of what people imagine and try to deliver strong messages
>> on what's really going on.
>>
>> The first "fix" isn't worth the energy - because of course, everyone
>> claims to know about what's really going on.
>
> Why not? Does anybody wait for Linus Torvalds before fighting anti-linux FUD?

Sorry I meant: it's not worth trying to make everyone fix this
communication bug.  But of course, individuals are welcome to fix it!

>> The second fix would be the best one, but OLPC is in a position where
>> any advice coming from the community is not heard.  Maybe there are too
>> many of them.  Or maybe OLPC turned a bit paranoïd about the community.
>
> Or maybe OLPC is a tiny *tiny* group of people, utterly swamped with
> HW, SW, deployment efforts, manufacturing logistics, working with
> governments, etc...?

Yes - that's why I said that there were perhaps too many advice to sort
out the relevant ones.  Still, my point was not to criticise but to try
to understand.

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Thanks *very much* for these explanations.

I hope this kind of information can find its way through the OLPC blog,
maybe with a little more context.  Then we can fight the FUD by linking
to these explanations.

Coyping sj, as I think he's responsible for OLPC's blog, but I might be
wrong about this.

Mitch Bradley  writes:

>>
>> Now AFAIK, there's little to no Windows work being done in-house by
>> the OLPC team, and it's all or mostly at Microsoft's side that the
>> work's being done.
>>   
>
> At the moment, OLPC is doing approximately zero work on Windows.  That 
> wasn't true last year.  I spent several months last year making it 
> possible to boot Windows from Open Firmware.  The reason I did that was 
> to prevent Microsoft from "taking over" the XO machine.  Their plan was 
> to purchase machines and instruct the factory to reflash their SPI FLASH 
> boot ROM with a conventional BIOS - which would have prevented OLPC's 
> Linux from working.  It would have been possible to boot a different 
> Linux distro from that BIOS, but it would not have been bootable from 
> NAND FLASH, the OLPC security would not have been available, OLPC's 
> special power management would not have worked, and the OFW-resident 
> management features like diagnostics and NAND update would have been 
> lost.  Essentially it would have been a one-way ticket to Microsoft land.
>
> That one-way road was unacceptable to Nicholas.  He insisted that, if 
> any machines were to be able to run Windows, they must be able to dual-boot.
>
> Microsoft already had the one-way solution working, with only the barest 
> amount of involvement from the OLPC team - essentially, I answered a few 
> questions that Microsoft's rep posed to me.  The time I spent doing that 
> was comparable to the time I spent answering similar questions from 
> people porting other operating systems, such as Minix, Plan 9, and ReactOS.
>
> The big chunks of time that I spent on Microsoft-related stuff were not 
> to make Windows run on the XO - that was already a done deal.  I spent 
> the time to enable OFW to dual-boot Windows and Linux, thus preventing 
> "Windows only" XOs.
>
> That work paid off in another way for XO-1.5.  The ACPI infrastructure 
> necessary to run Windows on XO-1 let us to use a more "standard" Linux 
> kernel for XO-1.5.  That's good in that it helps our chances of meeting 
> our tight schedule with our modest system software resources, and 
> reduces the amount of upstream merging that we must do.  It's bad from 
> the standpoint that XO-1.5 is looking more and more like a conventional 
> PC, thus bringing it dangerously close to the "black hole" of the PC 
> industry that sucks everything into the commodity ecosystem in which 
> Intel has near-total control over the evolution of the system architecture.
>
> It's possible - even likely - that I will have to spend some time in the 
> next few months to make Windows boot on XO-1.5.  I expect that will go 
> quite quickly compared to the last effort, as the XO-1 work should carry 
> over.
>
> Mitch
>
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Carlos Nazareno]

> That's my point.  We can fix this issue by raising an army of small
> hands that will vote on your (correct) slashdot comment, spread the
> correct vision, etc.

No need for anyone here to have mod points on Slashdot actually. If
anyone here just says something informative and not FUD, and clarifies
where they're getting their information from, reader moderators will
mod the comment up and it will become more visible to readers, thus
fixing FUD ;)

I'm more than happy to post stuff, having a Slashdot account. I just
don't know what to post exactly as stuff is not yet clarified.

Cheers!

-Naz

-- 
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[James Cameron]

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 10:33:14PM -1000, Mitch Bradley wrote:
> That one-way road was unacceptable to Nicholas.  He insisted that, if
> any machines were to be able to run Windows, they must be able to
> dual-boot.

Good work, both of you.

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Mitch Bradley]

>
> Now AFAIK, there's little to no Windows work being done in-house by
> the OLPC team, and it's all or mostly at Microsoft's side that the
> work's being done.
>   

At the moment, OLPC is doing approximately zero work on Windows.  That 
wasn't true last year.  I spent several months last year making it 
possible to boot Windows from Open Firmware.  The reason I did that was 
to prevent Microsoft from "taking over" the XO machine.  Their plan was 
to purchase machines and instruct the factory to reflash their SPI FLASH 
boot ROM with a conventional BIOS - which would have prevented OLPC's 
Linux from working.  It would have been possible to boot a different 
Linux distro from that BIOS, but it would not have been bootable from 
NAND FLASH, the OLPC security would not have been available, OLPC's 
special power management would not have worked, and the OFW-resident 
management features like diagnostics and NAND update would have been 
lost.  Essentially it would have been a one-way ticket to Microsoft land.

That one-way road was unacceptable to Nicholas.  He insisted that, if 
any machines were to be able to run Windows, they must be able to dual-boot.

Microsoft already had the one-way solution working, with only the barest 
amount of involvement from the OLPC team - essentially, I answered a few 
questions that Microsoft's rep posed to me.  The time I spent doing that 
was comparable to the time I spent answering similar questions from 
people porting other operating systems, such as Minix, Plan 9, and ReactOS.

The big chunks of time that I spent on Microsoft-related stuff were not 
to make Windows run on the XO - that was already a done deal.  I spent 
the time to enable OFW to dual-boot Windows and Linux, thus preventing 
"Windows only" XOs.

That work paid off in another way for XO-1.5.  The ACPI infrastructure 
necessary to run Windows on XO-1 let us to use a more "standard" Linux 
kernel for XO-1.5.  That's good in that it helps our chances of meeting 
our tight schedule with our modest system software resources, and 
reduces the amount of upstream merging that we must do.  It's bad from 
the standpoint that XO-1.5 is looking more and more like a conventional 
PC, thus bringing it dangerously close to the "black hole" of the PC 
industry that sucks everything into the commodity ecosystem in which 
Intel has near-total control over the evolution of the system architecture.

It's possible - even likely - that I will have to spend some time in the 
next few months to make Windows boot on XO-1.5.  I expect that will go 
quite quickly compared to the last effort, as the XO-1 work should carry 
over.

Mitch

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Martin Langhoff]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Bastien wrote:
> That's my point.  We can fix this issue by raising an army of small
> hands that will vote on your (correct) slashdot comment, spread the
> correct vision, etc.  Or we can hope that OLPC will fix this issue by
> taking care of what people imagine and try to deliver strong messages
> on what's really going on.
>
> The first "fix" isn't worth the energy - because of course, everyone
> claims to know about what's really going on.

Why not? Does anybody wait for Linus Torvalds before fighting anti-linux FUD?

> The second fix would be the best one, but OLPC is in a position where
> any advice coming from the community is not heard.  Maybe there are too
> many of them.  Or maybe OLPC turned a bit paranoïd about the community.

Or maybe OLPC is a tiny *tiny* group of people, utterly swamped with
HW, SW, deployment efforts, manufacturing logistics, working with
governments, etc...?

cheers,



m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Carlos Nazareno  writes:

> The thing is, most of the people on Slashdot (aka the Internet
> Geek/Nerd Community) who post about OLPC topics know nothing about
> what's going on as they just get their info from 3rd-hand sources and
> haven't even touched an XO.

That's my point.  We can fix this issue by raising an army of small
hands that will vote on your (correct) slashdot comment, spread the
correct vision, etc.  Or we can hope that OLPC will fix this issue by
taking care of what people imagine and try to deliver strong messages
on what's really going on.

The first "fix" isn't worth the energy - because of course, everyone
claims to know about what's really going on.

The second fix would be the best one, but OLPC is in a position where
any advice coming from the community is not heard.  Maybe there are too
many of them.  Or maybe OLPC turned a bit paranoïd about the community.

> Since we know a little bit more, it would be very informative to the
> world at large to set the story straight at these forums.

Yes.  But what would be the information?

  "OLPC supports both the use of free and proprietary softwares on its
  hardware."

Nothing really new, and nothing that prevents nerds from taking it in
the wrong sense.

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Carlos Nazareno]

>> I'm sick and tired of the this OLPC-MS FUD (Fear-Uncertainty-Doubt) on
>> Slashdot (one of the highest-traffic websites, so high that getting
>> linked on the frontpage is like being DDOSed) and it would be great if
>> the record on this could be set straight so that the MS FUD inanity on
>> Slashdot can be ended as it's destroying the image of OLPC.


> I'm sick of it as well, but I think there is nothing to do.

There is. If we could get what the story really is, anytime there's a
post on Slashdot on OLPC, we can just post the straight beans there.
The particular story I posted is still active right now, and if anyone
makes a post, I've got moderator points right now and can mod it up.

The thing is, most of the people on Slashdot (aka the Internet
Geek/Nerd Community) who post about OLPC topics know nothing about
what's going on as they just get their info from 3rd-hand sources and
haven't even touched an XO.

Since we know a little bit more, it would be very informative to the
world at large to set the story straight at these forums.

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Re: is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Bastien]

Hi Carlos,

Carlos Nazareno  writes:

> (The title is bad FUD from OLPC News -- it's actually Negroponte
> saying that Sugar should have been run as an application instead of
> the main OS layer/frontend and not Sugar itself as the mistake.)

This is actually very bad FUD.  The original article over-simplifies
what NN said about Sugar, and olpcnews over-amplifies this error.  

> Now everytime there's a piece on OLPC at Slashdot.org, it seems 30% of
> the comment traffic is composed of bashing OLPC for caving in to
> Microsoft and Windows.

I guess 30% of /. comments are just about Ranting For Nothing ©.

> In this case, OLPC is not really in bed with MS but is more of
> allowing MS to run Windows on the OLPC the same way users can install
> any software they want on their PCs.
>
> Am I correct in this assumption?

I can't speak for OLPC but this is also my understanding. 

> I'm sick and tired of the this OLPC-MS FUD (Fear-Uncertainty-Doubt) on
> Slashdot (one of the highest-traffic websites, so high that getting
> linked on the frontpage is like being DDOSed) and it would be great if
> the record on this could be set straight so that the MS FUD inanity on
> Slashdot can be ended as it's destroying the image of OLPC.

I'm sick of it as well, but I think there is nothing to do.

On a bigger scale, there is a problem in over-repeating that OLPC is an
education project while not supporting the software it must run and the
content it must have to truly become an education project.

OLPC now only sells machines and alternative ideas about education, but
the gap between these ideas and the machine is just huge enough so that
traditional habits about ICT in education can look more successful.

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is anyone actually doing Windows on XO work here?

[Carlos Nazareno]

Hey all.

Check out the latest piece:
Negroponte Sees Sugar As OLPC's Biggest Mistake
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/07/20/1628228

(The title is bad FUD from OLPC News -- it's actually Negroponte
saying that Sugar should have been run as an application instead of
the main OS layer/frontend and not Sugar itself as the mistake.)

Now everytime there's a piece on OLPC at Slashdot.org, it seems 30% of
the comment traffic is composed of bashing OLPC for caving in to
Microsoft and Windows.

Now AFAIK, there's little to no Windows work being done in-house by
the OLPC team, and it's all or mostly at Microsoft's side that the
work's being done.

And AFAIK, the deal is that "you buy the machine, you're free to run
any software you want on it. We're not stopping you from running
Windows even though we're pushing Sugar."

In this case, OLPC is not really in bed with MS but is more of
allowing MS to run Windows on the OLPC the same way users can install
any software they want on their PCs.

Am I correct in this assumption?

I'm sick and tired of the this OLPC-MS FUD (Fear-Uncertainty-Doubt) on
Slashdot (one of the highest-traffic websites, so high that getting
linked on the frontpage is like being DDOSed) and it would be great if
the record on this could be set straight so that the MS FUD inanity on
Slashdot can be ended as it's destroying the image of OLPC.

All the best,

-Naz

-- 
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Re: Sugar installer for Windows

[Edward Cherlin]

Would you add that to the Sugar options in the Wiki?

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Wade Brainerd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I wrote a simple Sugar installer for Windows:
> http://dev.laptop.org/~wadeb/OLPC-XO-Software-8.2.0-Setup.exe
>
> It installs/uninstalls a working Sugar environment (based on Ton van
> Overbeek's QEMU) with just a few clicks.
>
> The installer was built using the open source installer creator NSIS
> (nsis.sourceforge.net).  The installer script can be found here:
> http://dev.laptop.org/git/users/wadeb/wininstall/.git
>
> Note to build administrators: NSIS exists for Linux, so this process
> of creating Windows installers for Sugar could be automated.
>
> -Wade
> ___
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> Devel@lists.laptop.org
> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>



-- 
Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai
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Re: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

[Mark Warren]

Wade,

The installation works OK, however, the run.bat script needs to "cd" to the 
install directory when "Run as Administrator..." is used to start it; I'm not 
sure why UAC starts batch scripts differently as Admin, but here's the line I 
added to my copy of start-olpc.cmd to fix the problem:

cd %~dp0
... rest of script...

(That syntax means to take the (d)irectory and (p)ath from parameter %0. )

Cheers,

Mark




From: Wade Brainerd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Ton van Overbeek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Mwarren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; devel@lists.laptop.org
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 2:02:04 PM
Subject: Re: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

Oh, and Ton - if you're interested in hacking on QEMU some more, I
would love to see a build with some extra command line parameters:

--start-kqemuExecutes 'net start kqemu' automatically if the service exists.
--window-title=""   Changes the title of the window from QEMU to
whatever, say 'OLPC Software Environment 8.2.0'.

Then we could have the shortcut run qemu.exe directly and eliminate
the command prompt window, for a more seamless experience.

Best,
Wade

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Wade Brainerd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd love to get the Windows installer capable of installing without
> issue on Vista, but I lack a Vista machine to test.  I would welcome
> any assistance with this matter!
>
> Also, regarding downloading the image instead of bundling it, It easy
> to modify the installer to download the image.  NSIS has a Download
> plugin for this exact purpose.  That would drop the initial file size
> down to a few MB, and we could add a disk space check beforehand.
>
> --
>
> To work on the installer:
>
> Install NSIS from nsis.sourceforge.net.
>
> Get the installer source code:
> git clone git://dev.laptop.org/git/users/wadeb/wininstall/.git
>
> Or, download the source .tgz source file from this link:
> http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=users/wadeb/wininstall/.git;a=snapshot
>
> The installer code is all in the 'olpc.nsi' file.  This is a simple,
> text based install script.  The NSIS download has full documentation
> for the language.
>
> Cheers,
> Wade
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Ton van Overbeek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Mwarren wrote:
>>>
>>> I put together a new Quick Start bundle at
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/olpcqemu/Home/olpc_qemu_8.2.0.zip (4.7 MB).
>>> The
>>> bundle includes Ton's qemu-svn-4887, KQEMU 1.4.0pre1, the cwRsync bundle
>>> (rsync, cygwin1.dll, PuTTY), curl and bunzip2. The OLPC image has been
>>> replaced with a get-image.cmd script that automatically downloads an
>>> image,
>>> bunzip2's it, and creates a linked .qcow2.img file.  I would appreciate it
>>> if you can try out the bundle and give feedback -
>>> http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Mwarren&action=edit .
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>
>> Works fine for me on Win XP/SP3.
>> A few remarks:
>> - Might put a warning in for people (like me) who already have Cygwin
>> installed.
>>  Two cygwin1.dll on the same system can create problems.
>> - Put more emphasis on 'run as Administrator' for the install start and stop
>>  of the kqemu service.
>>  Without kqemu you do not have run as Administrator (but it will be very
>> slow).
>> - You do not say how to ssh into the emulated XO:
>>  For a command line ssh: 'ssh -p  [EMAIL PROTECTED]'.
>>  For PuTTY you have to change the port from 22 to .
>>  Also you first have to set a password on the olpc account in the emulated
>> xo,
>>  otherwise no ssh logins are allowed.
>> - You might want to mention to let software update download all the G1G1
>> activities
>>  on the first boot of the emulated xo.
>>  Alternatively we could set up an image somewhere with the G1G1 activities
>> already
>>  included.
>>
>> It might be an idea to combine your approach with Wade Brainerd's installer.
>> See http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-November/021016.html .
>> However the installer has problems installing the service on Vista due to
>> UAC.
>>
>> I cc'ed Wade on this email.
>>
>> Good work !!
>>
>> Ton van Overbeek
>> PS Have not updated my original zip with libusb0.dll yet. Will do this soon.
>>
>



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Re: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

[Wade Brainerd]

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Ton van Overbeek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> --start-kqemuExecutes 'net start kqemu' automatically if the service 
>> exists.
>
> This will require some real hacking. Will probably require to run qemu as
> Administrator:

I wonder if we could make the installer cause the service to start at
boot, since the installer will require Administrator privileges
anyway.  Does the kqemu service use significant resources?

>> --window-title=""   Changes the title of the window from QEMU to
>> whatever, say 'OLPC Software Environment 8.2.0'.
>>
>
> You can already do this today.
> Use the -name option on qemu:
>  -name "OLPC Software Environment 8.2.0" 
> The qemu window will then have "QEMU (OLPC Software Environment 8.2.0) as 
> title.

Cool, I'll add this in the next version of the installer.

-Wade
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Fwd: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

[Ton van Overbeek]

Forgot to cc devel@
-- Forwarded message --
From: Ton van Overbeek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows
To: Wade Brainerd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Wade Brainerd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Oh, and Ton - if you're interested in hacking on QEMU some more, I
> would love to see a build with some extra command line parameters:
>
> --start-kqemuExecutes 'net start kqemu' automatically if the service 
> exists.

This will require some real hacking. Will probably require to run qemu as
Administrator:

> --window-title=""   Changes the title of the window from QEMU to
> whatever, say 'OLPC Software Environment 8.2.0'.
>

You can already do this today.
Use the -name option on qemu:
 -name "OLPC Software Environment 8.2.0" 
The qemu window will then have "QEMU (OLPC Software Environment 8.2.0) as title.

> Then we could have the shortcut run qemu.exe directly and eliminate
> the command prompt window, for a more seamless experience.
>
> Best,
> Wade
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Re: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

[Ton van Overbeek]

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Ton van Overbeek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the update on how to install kqemu on Vista.
> libusb0.dll is from the libusb-win32 project on Sourceforge:
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/libusb-win32
> Right now I am on travel in Europe through the end of the month.
> When back, I will update my port (include libusb0.dll and document
> Vista installation)
>
> Ton van Overbeek

Finally updated the zip file
http://www.v-overbeek.nl/XO-1/qemu-svn-4887-for-windows.zip.
It now includes the missing libusb0.dll and your instructions for
Windows Vista in the README file.

Ton van Overbeek
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Re: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

[Wade Brainerd]

Oh, and Ton - if you're interested in hacking on QEMU some more, I
would love to see a build with some extra command line parameters:

--start-kqemuExecutes 'net start kqemu' automatically if the service exists.
--window-title=""   Changes the title of the window from QEMU to
whatever, say 'OLPC Software Environment 8.2.0'.

Then we could have the shortcut run qemu.exe directly and eliminate
the command prompt window, for a more seamless experience.

Best,
Wade

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Wade Brainerd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd love to get the Windows installer capable of installing without
> issue on Vista, but I lack a Vista machine to test.  I would welcome
> any assistance with this matter!
>
> Also, regarding downloading the image instead of bundling it, It easy
> to modify the installer to download the image.  NSIS has a Download
> plugin for this exact purpose.  That would drop the initial file size
> down to a few MB, and we could add a disk space check beforehand.
>
> --
>
> To work on the installer:
>
> Install NSIS from nsis.sourceforge.net.
>
> Get the installer source code:
> git clone git://dev.laptop.org/git/users/wadeb/wininstall/.git
>
> Or, download the source .tgz source file from this link:
> http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=users/wadeb/wininstall/.git;a=snapshot
>
> The installer code is all in the 'olpc.nsi' file.  This is a simple,
> text based install script.  The NSIS download has full documentation
> for the language.
>
> Cheers,
> Wade
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Ton van Overbeek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Mwarren wrote:
>>>
>>> I put together a new Quick Start bundle at
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/olpcqemu/Home/olpc_qemu_8.2.0.zip (4.7 MB).
>>> The
>>> bundle includes Ton's qemu-svn-4887, KQEMU 1.4.0pre1, the cwRsync bundle
>>> (rsync, cygwin1.dll, PuTTY), curl and bunzip2. The OLPC image has been
>>> replaced with a get-image.cmd script that automatically downloads an
>>> image,
>>> bunzip2's it, and creates a linked .qcow2.img file.  I would appreciate it
>>> if you can try out the bundle and give feedback -
>>> http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Mwarren&action=edit .
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>
>> Works fine for me on Win XP/SP3.
>> A few remarks:
>> - Might put a warning in for people (like me) who already have Cygwin
>> installed.
>>  Two cygwin1.dll on the same system can create problems.
>> - Put more emphasis on 'run as Administrator' for the install start and stop
>>  of the kqemu service.
>>  Without kqemu you do not have run as Administrator (but it will be very
>> slow).
>> - You do not say how to ssh into the emulated XO:
>>  For a command line ssh: 'ssh -p  [EMAIL PROTECTED]'.
>>  For PuTTY you have to change the port from 22 to .
>>  Also you first have to set a password on the olpc account in the emulated
>> xo,
>>  otherwise no ssh logins are allowed.
>> - You might want to mention to let software update download all the G1G1
>> activities
>>  on the first boot of the emulated xo.
>>  Alternatively we could set up an image somewhere with the G1G1 activities
>> already
>>  included.
>>
>> It might be an idea to combine your approach with Wade Brainerd's installer.
>> See http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-November/021016.html .
>> However the installer has problems installing the service on Vista due to
>> UAC.
>>
>> I cc'ed Wade on this email.
>>
>> Good work !!
>>
>> Ton van Overbeek
>> PS Have not updated my original zip with libusb0.dll yet. Will do this soon.
>>
>
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Re: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

[Wade Brainerd]

I'd love to get the Windows installer capable of installing without
issue on Vista, but I lack a Vista machine to test.  I would welcome
any assistance with this matter!

Also, regarding downloading the image instead of bundling it, It easy
to modify the installer to download the image.  NSIS has a Download
plugin for this exact purpose.  That would drop the initial file size
down to a few MB, and we could add a disk space check beforehand.

--

To work on the installer:

Install NSIS from nsis.sourceforge.net.

Get the installer source code:
git clone git://dev.laptop.org/git/users/wadeb/wininstall/.git

Or, download the source .tgz source file from this link:
http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=users/wadeb/wininstall/.git;a=snapshot

The installer code is all in the 'olpc.nsi' file.  This is a simple,
text based install script.  The NSIS download has full documentation
for the language.

Cheers,
Wade


On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Ton van Overbeek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mwarren wrote:
>>
>> I put together a new Quick Start bundle at
>> http://sites.google.com/site/olpcqemu/Home/olpc_qemu_8.2.0.zip (4.7 MB).
>> The
>> bundle includes Ton's qemu-svn-4887, KQEMU 1.4.0pre1, the cwRsync bundle
>> (rsync, cygwin1.dll, PuTTY), curl and bunzip2. The OLPC image has been
>> replaced with a get-image.cmd script that automatically downloads an
>> image,
>> bunzip2's it, and creates a linked .qcow2.img file.  I would appreciate it
>> if you can try out the bundle and give feedback -
>> http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Mwarren&action=edit .
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
> Works fine for me on Win XP/SP3.
> A few remarks:
> - Might put a warning in for people (like me) who already have Cygwin
> installed.
>  Two cygwin1.dll on the same system can create problems.
> - Put more emphasis on 'run as Administrator' for the install start and stop
>  of the kqemu service.
>  Without kqemu you do not have run as Administrator (but it will be very
> slow).
> - You do not say how to ssh into the emulated XO:
>  For a command line ssh: 'ssh -p  [EMAIL PROTECTED]'.
>  For PuTTY you have to change the port from 22 to .
>  Also you first have to set a password on the olpc account in the emulated
> xo,
>  otherwise no ssh logins are allowed.
> - You might want to mention to let software update download all the G1G1
> activities
>  on the first boot of the emulated xo.
>  Alternatively we could set up an image somewhere with the G1G1 activities
> already
>  included.
>
> It might be an idea to combine your approach with Wade Brainerd's installer.
> See http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-November/021016.html .
> However the installer has problems installing the service on Vista due to
> UAC.
>
> I cc'ed Wade on this email.
>
> Good work !!
>
> Ton van Overbeek
> PS Have not updated my original zip with libusb0.dll yet. Will do this soon.
>
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Re: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

[Ton van Overbeek]

Mwarren wrote:
> I put together a new Quick Start bundle at
> http://sites.google.com/site/olpcqemu/Home/olpc_qemu_8.2.0.zip (4.7 MB). The
> bundle includes Ton's qemu-svn-4887, KQEMU 1.4.0pre1, the cwRsync bundle
> (rsync, cygwin1.dll, PuTTY), curl and bunzip2. The OLPC image has been
> replaced with a get-image.cmd script that automatically downloads an image,
> bunzip2's it, and creates a linked .qcow2.img file.  I would appreciate it
> if you can try out the bundle and give feedback -
> http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Mwarren&action=edit .
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mark
>   
Works fine for me on Win XP/SP3.
A few remarks:
- Might put a warning in for people (like me) who already have Cygwin 
installed.
  Two cygwin1.dll on the same system can create problems.
- Put more emphasis on 'run as Administrator' for the install start and stop
  of the kqemu service.
  Without kqemu you do not have run as Administrator (but it will be 
very slow).
- You do not say how to ssh into the emulated XO:
  For a command line ssh: 'ssh -p  [EMAIL PROTECTED]'.
  For PuTTY you have to change the port from 22 to .
  Also you first have to set a password on the olpc account in the 
emulated xo,
  otherwise no ssh logins are allowed.
- You might want to mention to let software update download all the G1G1 
activities
  on the first boot of the emulated xo.
  Alternatively we could set up an image somewhere with the G1G1 
activities already
  included.

It might be an idea to combine your approach with Wade Brainerd's installer.
See http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-November/021016.html .
However the installer has problems installing the service on Vista due 
to UAC.

I cc'ed Wade on this email.

Good work !!

Ton van Overbeek
PS Have not updated my original zip with libusb0.dll yet. Will do this soon.
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Re: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

[Mwarren]

I put together a new Quick Start bundle at
http://sites.google.com/site/olpcqemu/Home/olpc_qemu_8.2.0.zip (4.7 MB). The
bundle includes Ton's qemu-svn-4887, KQEMU 1.4.0pre1, the cwRsync bundle
(rsync, cygwin1.dll, PuTTY), curl and bunzip2. The OLPC image has been
replaced with a get-image.cmd script that automatically downloads an image,
bunzip2's it, and creates a linked .qcow2.img file.  I would appreciate it
if you can try out the bundle and give feedback -
http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Mwarren&action=edit .

Thank you,

Mark


Ton van Overbeek wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the update on how to install kqemu on Vista.
> libusb0.dll is from the libusb-win32 project on Sourceforge:
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/libusb-win32
> Right now I am on travel in Europe through the end of the month.
> When back, I will update my port (include libusb0.dll and document
> Vista installation)
> 
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/Emulating-8.2-images-on-QEMU-for-windows-tp1115692p1492569.html
Sent from the OLPC Software development mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Sugar installer for Windows

[Wade Brainerd]

Hi all,

I wrote a simple Sugar installer for Windows:
http://dev.laptop.org/~wadeb/OLPC-XO-Software-8.2.0-Setup.exe

It installs/uninstalls a working Sugar environment (based on Ton van
Overbeek's QEMU) with just a few clicks.

The installer was built using the open source installer creator NSIS
(nsis.sourceforge.net).  The installer script can be found here:
http://dev.laptop.org/git/users/wadeb/wininstall/.git

Note to build administrators: NSIS exists for Linux, so this process
of creating Windows installers for Sugar could be automated.

-Wade
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Re: The XO laptop gets a Windows makeover

[Erik Garrison]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:50 PM, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> On 27.10.2008 00:57, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> On Oct 26, 2008, at 4:09 PM, Albert Cahalan wrote:
>> Means of file sharing can be setup fairly easily in Sugar if you want
>> to move raw files around. Currently file sharing is performed through
>> activity sharing.
>>
>
> Does "setup fairly easily" mean someone has to write a program
> ("activity") to do it? If yes, it's not easy (yet). Will it work with
> arbitrary binary files?

We can do asynchronous file-based collaboration intelligently.

I am currently thinking about a very simple solution which can be
hooked into Sugar to allow users to view each other's files provided
they are both on the same network (mesh, router, wired net, etc.).

The mechanism I am considering will work as follows:
  1) User clicks on another XO icon in the Neighborhood view.
  2) Browse is opened and pointed at a specific port on the IP of the XO.
  3) A web browser on the 'host' XO sends a directory listing of the
user's share/home/journal folder to the 'client'.
  4) The client user can download whatever file they wish to share.
  5) The client then opens the file in a suitable application.

To satisfy privacy concerns, we could provide three configuration
options to users:
  - Share all: share the entire user's home directory tree.
  - Share only: share only files and symlinks explicitly added to a
'share' directory.  These copies or links could be enabled using a
menu option in whatever data browser runs on the system.
  - Share nothing: don't run the webserver.

Such a scheme would simultaneously open the collaborative
possibilities offered by the mesh and cut the gordion knot of
collaboration systems and APIs, allowing any computer with a web
browser to enter the collaborative arena!  This scheme would make it
easy to collaborate asynchronously between Sugar and non-Sugar
environments.

To implement this it would be sufficient to provide a web interface to
the journal.  I believe a modular, file-based solution would be
preferable from a programming and maintenance perspective, but the
opaque nature of the filesystem from the users' perspective stands in
the way.  I am hoping that in 9.1 we provide users the capability to
save files to their home directory by giving their activity instances
names.  (Perhaps we could autosave everything else, but delete it
after some time period of non-use.)  This would make it possible to
provide collaboration by setting the webserver to provide a directory
listing of the user's home instead of writing a specialized interface
to the journal.  This would make it much easier to find and extend
existing upstream systems which do the job well to meet the specific
needs of the XO.

I am also hoping that it will be easy for users to run applications on
files obtained from non-local, non-journal/datastore sources.
Currently doing so is impossible from the Sugar GUI.

A third hope is that our security model can be relaxed to allow the
launching of an application against a file downloaded via a web
browser.  This would eliminate a step (back into the journal or file
browser) to open a file from a remote source.

Erik
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Re: The XO laptop gets a Windows makeover

[Erik Garrison]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:50 PM, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 27.10.2008 00:57, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> On Oct 26, 2008, at 4:09 PM, Albert Cahalan wrote:
>>
>> Means of file sharing can be setup fairly easily in Sugar if you want
>> to move raw files around. Currently file sharing is performed through
>> activity sharing.
>>
>
> Does "setup fairly easily" mean someone has to write a program
> ("activity") to do it? If yes, it's not easy (yet). Will it work with
> arbitrary binary files?

We can do asynchronous file-based collaboration intelligently.

I am currently thinking about a very simple solution which can be
hooked into Sugar to allow users to view each other's files provided
they are both on the same network (mesh, router, wired net, etc.).

The mechanism I am considering will work as follows:
 1) User clicks on another XO icon in the Neighborhood view.
 2) Browse is opened and pointed at a specific port on the IP of the XO.
 3) A web browser on the 'host' XO sends a directory listing of the
user's share/home/journal folder to the 'client'.
 4) The client user can download whatever file they wish to share.
 5) The client then opens the file in a suitable application.

To satisfy privacy concerns, we could provide three configuration
options to users:
 - Share all: share the entire user's home directory tree.
 - Share only: share only files and symlinks explicitly added to a
'share' directory.  These copies or links could be enabled using a
menu option in whatever data browser runs on the system.
 - Share nothing: don't run the webserver.

Such a scheme would simultaneously open the collaborative
possibilities offered by the mesh and cut the gordion knot of
collaboration systems and APIs, allowing any computer with a web
browser to enter the collaborative arena!  This scheme would make it
easy to collaborate asynchronously between Sugar and non-Sugar
environments.

To implement this it would be sufficient to provide a web interface to
the journal.  I believe a modular, file-based solution would be
preferable from a programming and maintenance perspective, but the
opaque nature of the filesystem from the users' perspective stands in
the way.  I am hoping that in 9.1 we provide users the capability to
save files to their home directory by giving their activity instances
names.  (Perhaps we could autosave everything else, but delete it
after some time period of non-use.)  This would make it possible to
provide collaboration by setting the webserver to provide a directory
listing of the user's home instead of writing a specialized interface
to the journal.  This would make it much easier to find and extend
existing upstream systems which do the job well to meet the specific
needs of the XO.

I am also hoping that it will be easy for users to run applications on
files obtained from non-local, non-journal/datastore sources.
Currently doing so is impossible from the Sugar GUI.

A third hope is that our security model can be relaxed to allow the
launching of an application against a file downloaded via a web
browser.  This would eliminate a step (back into the journal or file
browser) to open a file from a remote source.

Erik
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Re: The XO laptop gets a Windows makeover

[Albert Cahalan]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 7:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> File sharing is not an active real time collaboration tool by any means.

Right. Active real-time collaboration is nice, and I wish my
own editor had it, but I think you're overvaluing it greatly.

> In sugar multiple children can work on the same write document, paint
> document, etc. at the same time and a copy is saved locally.

Last I heard, this is not true regarding the paint program.
It's not true regarding most programs in fact. Peer-to-peer
collaborative software is far from trivial to do decently.

> Means of file sharing can be setup fairly easily in Sugar if you want to
> move raw files around. Currently file sharing is performed through activity
> sharing.

Right, it could be fixed. There has been recent effort,
but Windows is still way ahead in this critical area.

> Just because MS Excel is used by some for science, engineering and
> statistics does not mean it is the correct tool for the job.  There are too
>  many serious problems with MS Excel that have never been fixed and have
> caused serious problems with a number of scientific projects, etc., that
> relied on MS Excel.  I too can use a screw driver to hammer a nail into a
> wall but does not mean it is the correct tool.

It often is the correct tool, especially when you consider
things like ease-of-use and versatility. Turning your data
into pretty graphs in a report is easy with Excel. There is
even a built-in programming language, just in case you
should feel the urge to use one.

You can do your science while becoming familiar with a
typical business app. That's an excellent deal.

> I agree with you that there has been a dearth of decent educational software
> on all platforms.  There is a chance to start a fresh with a new platform
> that is not encumbered with a legacy of poor offerings in that area.

Many have gone down that path, generally resulting in
a fresh new legacy of poor offerings.
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Re: The XO laptop gets a Windows makeover

[Carl-Daniel Hailfinger]

Hi Robert,

On 27.10.2008 00:57, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> On Oct 26, 2008, at 4:09 PM, Albert Cahalan wrote:
>
>   
>> Booting both into Windows would allow file sharing.
>> Compared to what Sugar does, file sharing is very reliable.
>> It works with **all** programs, without any developer effort.
>> It's compatible between different software versions, different
>> types of software, and even different OSes. It even eliminates
>> the need to maintain a continuous network connection, which is
>> great for kids without wired networks or reliable electricity.
>> 
> As for Windows file sharing I could show you situations in which  
> Windows file sharing fails miserably and

You conveniently claim that you *could* show situations where file
sharing fails miserably, but then you leave out the actual description
of any of these situations. I don't doubt they exist, but in general
Windows file sharing works really well for a rather large number of users.
And I'm fairly confident that sharing (copying/reading/writing)
arbitrary files reliably even in the face of intermittent network
outages is a quite useful capability to have.


>   contrary to what you state  
> Windows file sharing is not compatible between all operating  
> systems.

And here you're refuting a straw man. Nice fallacy. Note how Albert
wrote about "different OSes" and not your "all operating systems" straw man.


> A few of your statements are so bizarre they don't even  
> deserve a response.
>   

You missed the opportunity to actually point out which statements you
consider bizarre. No justification of your statement is given. That
allows anyone to invoke that statement on select yet unspecified parts
of your e-mail.


> Means of file sharing can be setup fairly easily in Sugar if you want  
> to move raw files around. Currently file sharing is performed through  
> activity sharing.
>   

Does "setup fairly easily" mean someone has to write a program
("activity") to do it? If yes, it's not easy (yet). Will it work with
arbitrary binary files? If not, it's just as sensible as people loading
a file into MS Word and saving it at some destination instead of simply
copying the file over. I have seen that, and while I admire the
creativity inherent in that action, it is slower and forces users to
look at the contents of the file which may not be desirable. And yes,
I'm going to give you an example: If someone shares an image via the
paint program ("activity") with you and you find the image offensive,
your only way to show/share that with the teacher is to look at the
image again.

Anyway, I am looking forward to your enlightened and detailed response.


Regards,
Carl-Daniel
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Re: The XO laptop gets a Windows makeover

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Albert,

I was not shouting down criticism. I was pointing out the inherent  
fallacy of the experiment.

File sharing is not an active real time collaboration tool by any  
means.   In sugar multiple children can work on the same write  
document, paint document, etc. at the same time and a copy is saved  
locally.  You are making the  fallacy of comparing apples with oranges.
As for Windows file sharing I could show you situations in which  
Windows file sharing fails miserably and  contrary to what you state  
Windows file sharing is not compatible between all operating  
systems.  A few of your statements are so bizarre they don't even  
deserve a response.

In my work life I use multiple OS in a given day and see these  
compatibility problems first hand.

Means of file sharing can be setup fairly easily in Sugar if you want  
to move raw files around. Currently file sharing is performed through  
activity sharing.

Just because MS Excel is used by some for science, engineering and  
statistics does not mean it is the correct tool for the job.  There  
are too  many serious problems with MS Excel that have never been  
fixed and have caused serious problems with a number of scientific  
projects, etc., that relied on MS Excel.  I too can use a screw  
driver to hammer a nail into a wall but does not mean it is the  
correct tool.

I agree with you that there has been a dearth of decent educational  
software on all platforms.  There is a chance to start a fresh with a  
new platform that is not encumbered with a legacy of poor offerings  
in that area.  Is that not what the stated target for the XO and  
Sugar is to be an educational tool?

Unfortunately from your response ,you have demonstrated you really do  
not understand the difference between education and rote learning.
By the way I did not say rote training was useless. I said it leads  
to inflexibility.
Rote learning is not based on understanding.


On Oct 26, 2008, at 4:09 PM, Albert Cahalan wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>> It was a very poor experiment and the article had a number of items
>> of misinformation.  The author of the article did not take advantage
>> of the fact that she had 2 XOs .  She did not boot both in Sugar to
>> observe the collaboration capabilities of Sugar and Activities.  If
>> she had then Sugar would have won hands down.
>
> Sugar isn't helped when people shout down any criticism.
> Living in denial about the competition just leads to failure.
> I'm far from a fan of Windows, but it gets many things right.
>
> If you think booting both into Sugar would have helped Sugar,
> then you obviously haven't seen the collaboration capabilities
> of Windows. Booting both into Windows would allow file sharing.
> Compared to what Sugar does, file sharing is very reliable.
> It works with **all** programs, without any developer effort.
> It's compatible between different software versions, different
> types of software, and even different OSes. It even eliminates
> the need to maintain a continuous network connection, which is
> great for kids without wired networks or reliable electricity.
>
>> Windows is pointless as an educational platform.  I have never seen
>> what I would call an educational application on Windows.  I have seen
>> rote training applications on Windows.  About all Windows is good for
>> is in a school training the next generation of low skilled, low wage
>> support personal for Microsoft with out of date knowledge.
>
> I haven't seen decent educational software for any platform.
> That includes Sugar and Mac OS. Probably this means that the
> concept itself is defective. Real tools are superior.
>
> I have seen Microsoft Excel used for science, engineering, and
> statistics. Sugar has nothing comparable, despite at least two
> usable free spreadsheets being available for Linux.
>
>> Remember education and training are 2 different concepts.  Education
>> gives you the ability to reach beyond your base knowledge and to
>> continue to learn, explore and synthesize ideas and concepts. Rote
>> training freezes you in time and makes you inflexible.
>
> You just keep telling yourself that Windows is only for rote training
> (false) and that rote training is useless (also false) while the
> world mysteriously ignores you for some reason.

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RE: [sugar] The XO laptop gets a Windows makeover

[Martin Edmund Sevior]

Hi Albert,
 I think you're totally wrong with respect to windows and 
collaboration. It has *NOTHING* like sugars collaborative capabilities. What 
program allows allows two children to start jointly writing a document with two 
clicks on a mouse?

Cheers

Martin



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Albert Cahalan
Sent: Mon 10/27/2008 10:09 AM


Sugar isn't helped when people shout down any criticism.
Living in denial about the competition just leads to failure.
I'm far from a fan of Windows, but it gets many things right.

If you think booting both into Sugar would have helped Sugar,
then you obviously haven't seen the collaboration capabilities
of Windows. Booting both into Windows would allow file sharing.
Compared to what Sugar does, file sharing is very reliable.
It works with **all** programs, without any developer effort.
It's compatible between different software versions, different
types of software, and even different OSes. It even eliminates
the need to maintain a continuous network connection, which is
great for kids without wired networks or reliable electricity.
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Re: The XO laptop gets a Windows makeover

[Albert Cahalan]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> It was a very poor experiment and the article had a number of items
> of misinformation.  The author of the article did not take advantage
> of the fact that she had 2 XOs .  She did not boot both in Sugar to
> observe the collaboration capabilities of Sugar and Activities.  If
> she had then Sugar would have won hands down.

Sugar isn't helped when people shout down any criticism.
Living in denial about the competition just leads to failure.
I'm far from a fan of Windows, but it gets many things right.

If you think booting both into Sugar would have helped Sugar,
then you obviously haven't seen the collaboration capabilities
of Windows. Booting both into Windows would allow file sharing.
Compared to what Sugar does, file sharing is very reliable.
It works with **all** programs, without any developer effort.
It's compatible between different software versions, different
types of software, and even different OSes. It even eliminates
the need to maintain a continuous network connection, which is
great for kids without wired networks or reliable electricity.

> Windows is pointless as an educational platform.  I have never seen
> what I would call an educational application on Windows.  I have seen
> rote training applications on Windows.  About all Windows is good for
> is in a school training the next generation of low skilled, low wage
> support personal for Microsoft with out of date knowledge.

I haven't seen decent educational software for any platform.
That includes Sugar and Mac OS. Probably this means that the
concept itself is defective. Real tools are superior.

I have seen Microsoft Excel used for science, engineering, and
statistics. Sugar has nothing comparable, despite at least two
usable free spreadsheets being available for Linux.

> Remember education and training are 2 different concepts.  Education
> gives you the ability to reach beyond your base knowledge and to
> continue to learn, explore and synthesize ideas and concepts. Rote
> training freezes you in time and makes you inflexible.

You just keep telling yourself that Windows is only for rote training
(false) and that rote training is useless (also false) while the
world mysteriously ignores you for some reason.
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Re: The XO laptop gets a Windows makeover

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

It was a very poor experiment and the article had a number of items  
of misinformation.  The author of the article did not take advantage  
of the fact that she had 2 XOs .  She did not boot both in Sugar to  
observe the collaboration capabilities of Sugar and Activities.  If  
she had then Sugar would have won hands down.
Windows is pointless as an educational platform.  I have never seen  
what I would call an educational application on Windows.  I have seen  
rote training applications on Windows.  About all Windows is good for  
is in a school training the next generation of low skilled, low wage  
support personal for Microsoft with out of date knowledge.


Remember education and training are 2 different concepts.  Education  
gives you the ability to reach beyond your base knowledge and to  
continue to learn, explore and synthesize ideas and concepts. Rote  
training freezes you in time and makes you inflexible.



On Oct 25, 2008, at 11:34 PM, Carlos mauro wrote:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10074298-56.html? 
part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20


Was a experiment (informal) with a girl with 8 years old wich used  
olpc with Sugar an Windows...


:)

-- Forwarded message --
From: Carlos mauro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2008/10/26
Subject: Niños en Prueba Informal Prefieren Sugar q WindowsXp
To: kunix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "OLPC en castellano para  
usuarios, docentes, voluntarios y administradores" [EMAIL PROTECTED]>, OLPC-Peru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Claudia Colque <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, AD Luyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,  
Kri0z <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Victor Arturo Simich L�pez  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, EDUARDO CIEZA DE LEON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,  
Lucia Elisa Loyola Cordova <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, KETTY JULCA  
VALDEZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Natividad Gonzales Cordova  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Mica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10074298-56.html? 
part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20



Intersante

Espero que me respondan la forma de colocarle el windows Xp a la  
OLPC para hacer los test de usabilidad de contraste.

--
http://unimauro.blogspot.com/
Creemos en el amor de los Seres Humanos
Carlos Mauro Cárdenas Fernández
4582877 980525716



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The XO laptop gets a Windows makeover

[Carlos mauro]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10074298-56.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

Was a experiment (informal) with a girl with 8 years old wich used olpc with
Sugar an Windows...

:)

-- Forwarded message --
From: Carlos mauro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2008/10/26
Subject: Niños en Prueba Informal Prefieren Sugar q WindowsXp
To: kunix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "OLPC en castellano para usuarios,
docentes, voluntarios y administradores" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
OLPC-Peru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Claudia Colque <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, AD Luyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kri0z <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Victor Arturo Simich L�pez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
EDUARDO CIEZA DE LEON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lucia Elisa Loyola Cordova <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, KETTY JULCA VALDEZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Natividad
Gonzales Cordova <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Mica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10074298-56.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20


Intersante

Espero que me respondan la forma de colocarle el windows Xp a la OLPC para
hacer los test de usabilidad de contraste.
-- 
http://unimauro.blogspot.com/
Creemos en el amor de los Seres Humanos
Carlos Mauro Cárdenas Fernández
4582877 980525716



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Re: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

[Ton van Overbeek]

Thanks for the update on how to install kqemu on Vista.
libusb0.dll is from the libusb-win32 project on Sourceforge:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/libusb-win32
Right now I am on travel in Europe through the end of the month.
When back, I will update my port (include libusb0.dll and document
Vista installation)

Ton van Overbeek

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Mwarren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Ton van Overbeek wrote:
>>
>> In the kqemu-1.4.0pre1 directory right click kqemu.inf and select Install.
>> See also http://bellard.org/qemu/kqemu-doc.html .
>>
>
> In Windows Vista, install KQEMU with this command line from an Administrator
> CMD prompt:
>
>   rundll32.exe setupapi,InstallHinfSection DefaultInstall 132 kqemu.inf
>
> Right clicking on the .inf file and selecting Install returns the error "The
> INF file you selected does not support this method of installation" on Vista
> :-(. QEMU+KQEMU, however, works fine under VistaB-).  This QEMU build also
> asks for libusb0.dll which can be found in
> http://slimak.onet.pl/_m/onetlajt/olpc/olpc_qemu_full.zip .
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Re: Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

[Mwarren]

Ton van Overbeek wrote:
> 
> In the kqemu-1.4.0pre1 directory right click kqemu.inf and select Install.
> See also http://bellard.org/qemu/kqemu-doc.html .
> 

In Windows Vista, install KQEMU with this command line from an Administrator
CMD prompt:
 
   rundll32.exe setupapi,InstallHinfSection DefaultInstall 132 kqemu.inf

Right clicking on the .inf file and selecting Install returns the error "The
INF file you selected does not support this method of installation" on Vista
:-(. QEMU+KQEMU, however, works fine under VistaB-).  This QEMU build also
asks for libusb0.dll which can be found in
http://slimak.onet.pl/_m/onetlajt/olpc/olpc_qemu_full.zip .

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/Emulating-8.2-images-on-QEMU-for-windows-tp1115692p1300264.html
Sent from the OLPC Software development mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Emulating 8.2 images on QEMU for windows

[Ton van Overbeek]

Mel,

You (and anybody else interested) can find my version of QEMU for Windows
which runs 8.2 and joyride images successfully here:
http://www.v-overbeek.nl/XO-1/qemu-svn-4887-for-windows.zip .
Below the README from the zip file:
=
QEMU for running 8.2 XO-1 devel-ext3 images on Windows
--

Here is my privately compiled version of qemu based on snapshot svn-4887.
See http://savannah.nongnu.org/svn/?group=qemu .
I have only used it on Windows XP/SP2, but it most likely will work under
Windows Vista.

Installing qemu
---

Make sure the following files are all in the same directory:
qemu.exe
fmod.dll
SDL.dll
mwgz.dll
bios.bin
vgabios-cirrus.bin
qemu-img.exe (optional)

This will allow you to run qemu, but slowly. It is recommended to use the
kqemu accelaratiob module. You'll find a version compatible with this 
version
of qemu in the subdirectory kqemu-1.4.0pre1.

Before installing this version, uninstall any previous versions of kqemu !
The kqemu supplied with the released 0.9.1 version is not compatible
with this version of qemu.

In the kqemu-1.4.0pre1 directory right click kqemu.inf and select Install.
See also http://bellard.org/qemu/kqemu-doc.html .

The service can be started by the command 'net start kqemu'. it should 
report
"The KQEMU virtualisation module for QEMU service was started successfully."
on Win XP/SP2

Running qemu


Make sure the kqemu accelerator is running (see above).

To run qemu for an XO-1 image use  commands like:
--
net start kqemu
qemu -L . -cpu athlon -m 512 -net nic,model=rtl8139 -soundhw es1370 
xo-1-olpc-stream-8.2-763-devel_ext3.img
--
The important option is '-cpu athlon'.
If you forget this option you will get the following messages:
This kernel requires the following features not present on the CPU
3dnow
Unable to boot - please use a kernel appropriate for your CPU.

For other options see the qemu documentation.

Happy emulating XO-1 images!

Ton van Overbeek, 2008-09-24.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=
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Re: [bytesforall_readers] Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?: RMS

[Edward Cherlin]

I am in the middle of this controversy, having succeeded in engaging
Nicholas Negroponte in a conversation. He still doesn't answer the
question you ask him, so it's going to take a little doing. Nicholas
has been diagnosed as dyslexic, and I suspect that he also has
Attention Deficit, as I do. ADHD impusiveness would partly explain
some of his more peculiar pronouncements, if he does. Both ADHD and
dyslexia are associated with creativity and compassion, according to
the researchers, so they may in fact be essential elements of a
project like OLPC, or of Free Software. We are also known for
inaccurate self-image, and disdain for the conventional, but it all
takes very different forms in different people.

They also say that ADHD and dyslexia are endemic in the geek/nerd
population. My observations bear this out for ADHD, but I don't really
know how much dyslexia there is among my friends in the business.

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 1:52 AM, Frederick FN Noronha
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -- Forwarded message --
>  From: Hempal Shrestha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  Date: 2008/5/1
>  Subject: [FOSSNepal] Fwd: {OLPC Nepal} Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?: RMS
>  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>  Dear All,
>
>  Here is what RMS is asking, How are the OLPC things going to take
>  shape in Nepal?
>  Source: 
> http://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/can-we-rescue-olpc-from-windows/blogentry_view

OLPC Nepal is in excellent shape. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Nepal

"OLPC launched at Bashuki and Bishwamitra schools on April 25th, 2008.
Open Learning Exchange Nepal (OLE Nepal) distributed a total of 135
OLPC laptops to grade 2 and 6 students from two schools in the
outskirts of Kathmandu Valley. These were addition to the 22 laptops
that were handed out to teachers from the schools during the teacher
preparation program held a month ago. The laptop project was
undertaken in partnership with Nepal government's Department of
Education (DoE). This project is part of OLE Nepal's mission to
increase quality of education while reducing current disparity in
access and quality between school types, regions, and population
groups by integrating ICT-based education in daily teaching-learning
process. The laptops for the project were donated by the Danish IT
Society in Copenhagen. "

>  Regards,
>
>  Hempal Shrestha
>  
> ====
>
>   Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?
>
>
>
>  by Richard Stallman
>
>  I read Negroponte's statement presenting the OLPC XO as a platform for
>  Windows in the most ironic circumstances possible: during a week of
>  preparing, under a deadline, to migrate personally to an XO.
>
>  I made this decision for one specific reason: freedom. The IBM T23s
>  that I have used for many years are adequate in practice, and the
>  system and applications running on them are entirely free software,
>  but the BIOS is not. I want to use a laptop with a free software BIOS,
>  and the XO is the only one.

That's Open FirmWare, GPLed by Sun. Holding down a certain button on
the XO while booting takes you to the OFW Forth prompt (ok), and lets
you examine and modify the code.

>  The XO's usual software load is not 100% free; it has a non-free
>  firmware program to run the wireless chip.

I talked with rms at one of Rick Moen's installfests in Menlo Park,
CA, about the proprietary microkernel on the Marvell wireless chip,
and created a project to replace it with Free Software.
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Marvell_microkernel I'm pinging the
volunteers to see how far along they are.

>  That means I cannot fully
>  promote the XO as it stands, but it was easy for me solve that problem
>  for my own machine: I just deleted that file. That made the internal
>  wireless chip inoperative, but I can do without it.
>
>  As always happens, problems arose, which delayed the migration until
>  last week. On Friday, when I discussed some technical problems with
>  the OLPC staff, we also discussed how to save the future of the
>  project.

The conversation must include the volunteers and the children. The
volunteers are easy to reach on mailing lists at
http://lists.laptop.org. We have started the discussion about how to
get children involved.

>  Some enthusiasts of the GNU/Linux system are extremely disappointed by
>  the prospect that the XO, if it is a success, will not be a platform
>  for the system they love. Those who have supported the OLPC project
>  with their effort or their money may well feel betrayed. However,
>  those concerns are dwarfed by what is at stake here: whether the XO is
>  an influence for freedom or an influence for subjection.

See http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Controversies for a summary of the
situation and 

Organization was Re: A technical assessment of porting "Sugar" to Windows.)

[Edward Cherlin]

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:21 PM, Mitch Bradley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  A general observation about organizational behavior:
>
>  Organizations do not act coherently to nearly the same extent as
>  individual humans.  Individuals change their minds, act in ways
>  inconsistent with their stated goals, respond to different external
>  pressures at different times, etc.  With organizations it is even worse,
>  and the larger the organization, the more complicated it becomes.
>  Organizational leadership changes, goals and external realities change,
>  internal groups vie for influence, compete with one another and work at
>  cross purposes.  Different people within the organization make
>  statements that are attributed to "the organization".
>
>  Expecting an individual to behave coherently over time is dodgy at best;
>  expecting it of an organization is almost certain to disappoint.
>
>  In the OLPC case, the leadership at the very top hasn't changed, but the
>  second tier has changed, and the situation and external pressures have
>  changed drastically.

Yes, the middle tier is now supposed to be Kim Quirk (Technology),
Robert Fadel (Administration), Charles Kane (Business Development),
and whoever replaces Walter in Deployment. Has anybody heard? The
failure to announce such things is one of my biggest complaints.

Kim and Robert are adamant about not supporting first world
deployments, although they sort of allow them. GiveMany is a joke, and
the OLPC community isn't permitted to discuss projects like Illinois
(100,000 units proposed) with the staff. I haven't talked to Charles.

That reminds me. Do we have any idea what the Boards of Director and
Advisors think about all of this?
http://laptop.org/vision/people/

Does anybody have contact information for them? I have a few e-mail
addresses. Well, I'll ask.

Dandy, Ed, Joe, Alan, Mako (all bcc) pass it on, please, and read the
thread. We think that Nicholas doesn't know what he is talking about
with this Sugar on Windows idea and dissing Open Source, that he is
and has been dangerously out of touch with staff and volunteers, and
that he is now endangering the mission. Problems like this are
supposed to be the reason for a Board of Directors to exist in the
first place, so we want to hear that Board members are taking the
issue seriously, and preferably see evidence that you are listening to
what is going on, and understand the issues. Advisers, any assistance
you can give will be appreciated. This is the time to advise, if ever
there was one.

Nicholas's post
http://www.olpcnews.com/people/negroponte/nicholas_negroponte_sugar_olpc.html

Replies and related posts

http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-April/thread.html#13140
On Sugar (Development)
http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/sugar/2008-April/thread.html#5173 On
Sugar (Sugar)
http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/community-news/2008-April/thread.html#112
Where is Walter

http://www.olpcnews.com/people/negroponte/open_source_fundamentalists.html
http://www.olpcnews.com/people/negroponte/one_laptop_per_child_off_the_track.html
http://www.olpcnews.com/people/negroponte/negroponte_is_further_gone.html
http://www.olpcnews.com/people/leadership/walter_bender_resigned_from_olpc.html

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"The best way to predict the future is to invent it."--Alan Kay
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Re: [sugar] Sugar\Windows won't ship

[C. Scott Ananian]

2008/4/30 Nathalia Sautchuk Patrício <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> The video that Scott are saying are available at
> http://twiki.softwarelivre.org/bin/view/TV

That URL actually seems to point to the FISL8 videos; the
OLPC-relevant ones I've mirrored at
http://download.laptop.org/content/conf/20070414-fisl08/ to save you
all the trouble of downloading the complete ISO images.

My talk was at FISL9.  The slides are at:
  http://download.laptop.org/content/conf/20080417-fisl09/cscott/fisl08.pdf
By next year's FISL, at least, we will perhaps have video to go along with it?
 --scott

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Re: [sugar] Sugar\Windows won't ship

[Nathalia Sautchuk Patrício]

The video that Scott are saying are available at
http://twiki.softwarelivre.org/bin/view/TV


2008/4/28 Carol Lerche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I assume many people may already have seen this 
> articleand
>  associated video, but those who have not definitely should.  It greatly
> enhanced my appreciation of the design goals of sugar, and in my opinion
> should be featured on the officially maintained wiki pages about the sugar
> UI.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 11:02 AM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > Incidentally, this whole topic of "getting Sugar to play nicely with
> > Linux" was the *exact* topic of my talk at FISL this year.  The slides
> > can be downloaded from
> > http://download.laptop.org/content/conf/20080417-fisl08/cscott/ ; I'm
> > under impression that the actual video will be available at some point
> > from http://fisl.softwarelivre.org/9.0/www/ but my Portuguese is not
> > at a sufficient level for me to know if this has been done yet, and if
> > not when it might be available.
> >  --scott
> >
> > --
> >  ( http://cscott.net/ )
> > ___
> > Devel mailing list
> > Devel@lists.laptop.org
> > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "Always do right," said Mark Twain. "This will gratify some people and
> astonish the rest."
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>


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http://nathaliapatricio.blogspot.com/
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Re: A technical assessment of porting "Sugar" to Windows.

[Ludovic FERRE]

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 8:32 PM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> 1. Sugar design guidelines.
>
> Windows developers would port existing applications (Word, for
> example) and provide simplified interfaces matching the Sugar UI
> guidelines, but these activities would not share any code or
> interoperate in any way with Sugar/GNU/Linux.  The collaboration and
> other features itemized below would exist in Sugar/Windows only to the
> extent to which the original or newly-written applications supported
> them: native Word collaboration via a SharePoint server, for example,
> would replace the Abiword-based peer-to-peer collaboration of
> Sugar/GNU/Linux.


I think that one option that should not be discounted is the stack
Sugar/GNU/Windows.

In this case you could keep ABI Word (using the Win32 version) and
other open source collaboration tools instead of implementing what Nicholas
would call bloat-ware (Share point is probably the ugliest CMS you could
deploy - a simple wiki would work tons better ;).

Ludovic
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Re: A technical assessment of porting "Sugar" to Windows.

[C. Scott Ananian]

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:18 AM, NoiseEHC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have just found this link:
>  http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~driscoll/fuse-nt.pdf
>  This is a report about a failed IFS-FUSE attempt.
>  They ended with a loopback SMB server what should the Sugar windows port
>  should follow IMHO.

Thanks, I've added this link to the olpcfs wiki page.  I'll integrate
it into the text next time I make substantial revisions to the
document.
 --scott

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Re: [sugar] Sugar\Windows won't ship

[Carol Lerche]

I assume many people may already have seen this
articleand
associated video, but those who have not definitely should.  It
greatly
enhanced my appreciation of the design goals of sugar, and in my opinion
should be featured on the officially maintained wiki pages about the sugar
UI.


On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 11:02 AM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Incidentally, this whole topic of "getting Sugar to play nicely with
> Linux" was the *exact* topic of my talk at FISL this year.  The slides
> can be downloaded from
> http://download.laptop.org/content/conf/20080417-fisl08/cscott/ ; I'm
> under impression that the actual video will be available at some point
> from http://fisl.softwarelivre.org/9.0/www/ but my Portuguese is not
> at a sufficient level for me to know if this has been done yet, and if
> not when it might be available.
>  --scott
>
> --
>  ( http://cscott.net/ )
> ___
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>



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astonish the rest."
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Re: [sugar] Sugar\Windows won't ship

[C. Scott Ananian]

Incidentally, this whole topic of "getting Sugar to play nicely with
Linux" was the *exact* topic of my talk at FISL this year.  The slides
can be downloaded from
http://download.laptop.org/content/conf/20080417-fisl08/cscott/ ; I'm
under impression that the actual video will be available at some point
from http://fisl.softwarelivre.org/9.0/www/ but my Portuguese is not
at a sufficient level for me to know if this has been done yet, and if
not when it might be available.
 --scott

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Re: [sugar] Sugar\Windows won't ship

[Marco Pesenti Gritti]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Note that this work (should be) the same, no matter what window manager
>  we end up using.  Window managers have been pretty interchangeable
>  throughout X's history. That's what the ICCCM/EWMH's documents are all
>  about.  If there is something missing we need, we can/should/will work
>  with the freedesktop mailing list to catch the oversights.

As far as I know the current Sugar implementation should run decently
under any ICCCM/EWMH compliant window manager, with just a couple of
modifications.

The main shell glitch I know about is the way we implement the frame
panels (we couldn't do it the right because of matchbox limitations),
but that should be really easy to fix, matter of using the right hint.

And then there is obviously the fact that activities should be
fullscreen. One way to fix that would be just to use the fullscreen
hint for activities.

Marco
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Re: [sugar] Sugar\Windows won't ship

[Marco Pesenti Gritti]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  I suspect we're using dbus in some places where we should just be using
>  the normal ICCCM/EWMH conventions.

Activities/applications can run fine without DBus right now. The main
problem are a couple of non standard X properties. It should not be
too difficult to stop requiring those.

Marco
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Re: [sugar] Sugar\Windows won't ship

[Jim Gettys]

On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 16:47 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  If someone would like to go ahead and try replacing matchbox with
> >  metacity, would be great ;)
> 
> And I'd be happy to help out whoever attempts it both on the Sugar and
> on the wm/X side... :)


Note that this work (should be) the same, no matter what window manager
we end up using.  Window managers have been pretty interchangeable
throughout X's history. That's what the ICCCM/EWMH's documents are all
about.  If there is something missing we need, we can/should/will work
with the freedesktop mailing list to catch the oversights.

I suspect we're using dbus in some places where we should just be using
the normal ICCCM/EWMH conventions.
 - Jim

-- 
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One Laptop Per Child


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Re: [sugar] Sugar\Windows won't ship

[Jim Gettys]

Note I understand that metacity can be configured to use a dbus/gconf
version, rather than bringing in the dread CORBA/bonobo dependencies
we've worked so hard to avoid.  So don't let ldd mislead you that it
isn't worth a try; it is.

So Metacity is clearly one of the contenders.  This wasn't an option
when Sugar was started, though with 20-20 hindsight, we probably should
have used something other than matchbox from the beginning.
- Jim

On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 16:32 +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >  On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 10:06 -0400, Walter Bender wrote:
> >  > I must have missed the post you refer to. It has never been the
> >  > position of the core Sugar team--that I am aware of--to preclude the
> >  > running of standard Linux apps. We even went so far as to hire a
> >  > contractor to look at various ways to facilitate the running of
> >  > standard X apps last summer---although that work was never completed
> >  > or brought into the main branch.
> >  >
> >
> >  Matthew Allum thinks we're best off not trying to force-fit this into
> >  matchbox (the window manager we're currently using), having done the
> >  experiment last summer.  He's not only the "contractor", but also the
> >  original author of matchbox; so I think we should respect his opinion in
> >  this matter.
> >
> >  We'll investigate alternative window managers, rather than flogging this
> >  horse, which is clearly dead for our purposes. Many of the modern ones
> >  honor full screen hints, and I've never seen Sugar's UI do much that
> >  isn't supported one way or the other by the ICCCM/EWMH's. It may take a
> >  bit of sugar work, but I'd be surprised it will be difficult.
> 
> If someone would like to go ahead and try replacing matchbox with
> metacity, would be great ;)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tomeu
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Re: [sugar] Sugar\Windows won't ship

[Marco Pesenti Gritti]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  If someone would like to go ahead and try replacing matchbox with
>  metacity, would be great ;)

And I'd be happy to help out whoever attempts it both on the Sugar and
on the wm/X side... :)

Marco
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