Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/20/2011 07:22 PM, Paul Wouters wrote: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Rahul Sundaram wrote: GNOME 3 menu has categories in the right as well but in any case, the common apps are in the dash and using a keyboard with a search as you type interface isn't the same as using bash. Let us not be dramatic. gnome3 was not driven by user feedbak. It was driven by getting vendors to install it on factory shipped netbooks. Well, as mentioned before, I have a F15 test installation on a netbook. Gnome 3's shape on it is best described as embarassing[1]. Ralf [1] Apart of the keyboard/mouse issues, Gnome 3's DE/gnome-shell doesn't scale well on small/wide (in my case: 1024x600) displays: * The way the favorites pane (rsp. the icons inside) is being scaled. * unselectable items at the bottom end of the application categories menu ... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 01:22:25PM -0400, Paul Wouters wrote: gnome3 was not driven by user feedbak. It was driven by getting vendors to install it on factory shipped netbooks. Latter is not true. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Evandro Giovanini wrote: I'm not really sure I get what you're asking for here. GNOME 3 does have the classic (Win95-like) design installed by default and all you have to do is enable fallback mode in order to use it. 1) I was not aware of classic mode, it was clearly not obvious anymore. 2) F15 should have started in classic mode with a pointer on how to upgrade to a more modern method if it detected the fedora install was an upgrade. 3) you still did not describe how to enable fallback mode By now, I have returned to F14, with plans to skip F15 alltogether and hoping F16 will not make the same mistake of turning my desktop power setup in a single-task tablet environment based on some bad copycat behaviour that even MacOSX pretty much abanonded as a mistake. In addition to that the GNOME Shell is highly customizable and you can have a traditional application menu right on the top menu bar if you'd like. You can check out the extensions available in Fedora, the ones here [1] and several others you can search on Google. The GNOME developers are also working on a website to make installing and managing extensions as easy as it is with Firefox. I look forward to see that support in F15/F16 Paul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Rahul Sundaram wrote: GNOME 3 menu has categories in the right as well but in any case, the common apps are in the dash and using a keyboard with a search as you type interface isn't the same as using bash. Let us not be dramatic. With Everything missing, most of it behind unknown auto-hide locations on mysterious sections of the desktop, the change was actually pretty dramatic. An expose copy where all my terminal windows randomly re-arrange and the font is too small for me to distinguish them. Apps taking over full screen with auto-front without my control of always on top. I thought virtual desktops were broken too but after going back to F14 I was told they just changed the hotkeys from ctrl-alt left/right to ctrl-alt-up/down. And whoever decided that the new message notification icon of pidgin should be auto-hide clearly is not using pidgin as their IM client :P Similar but less annoying things is hiding the network status per default, nuking my clock preferences, no easy volume control applet, etc etc. gnome3 was not driven by user feedbak. It was driven by getting vendors to install it on factory shipped netbooks. Again, I'm skipping F15 in the hopes that F16 corrects most of these shortcomings and provides a useful interface again to do more then a single task out of a selection of 3 common tasks. Paul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/20/2011 01:22 PM, Paul Wouters wrote: ... gnome3 was not driven by user feedbak. It was driven by getting vendors to install it on factory shipped netbooks. Perhaps, tho I suspect Android won that market already ... but perhaps its worth a shot, things can change. Again, I'm skipping F15 in the hopes that F16 corrects most of these shortcomings and provides a useful interface again to do more then a single task out of a selection of 3 common tasks. Not sure why people would want to fiddle with 3rd party extensions especially when the API has no guarantees of stability and the extensions live outside the core ... you keep the pieces when it breaks. Did you try some of the other DE's? I am finding KDE surprisingly decent as an upgrade from Gnome-2 ... and others seem to be happy with xfce or lxde ... was a shortish learning curve but I am finding no lack of functionality in KDE that I had in Gnome 2. Many Ubuntu folk are not happy with Unity either .. so perhaps the needs will be more clear and things will improve to make things better for you. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: Probably not, but I wouldn't say they're equivalent. I don't think many people expect their desktop to have a screen recorder built in. I can't think of any other desktop that _does_. When I said Shell was fully mouse accessible I was talking about typical operations, not every single thing it's potentially capable of. I'm really not sure what the point of this side track is; what does anyone gain by you picking very small holes in my generalization? And how exactly are user expectations built for any new and novel features? That's a deep question indeed. I don't look at GNOME3 as trying to build something that meets existing expectations as they stand today. If that was the goal It would just be GNOME2++, and its clearly not that. It's hard for me to reconcile your stated rationalization that somehow this particular announced feature is meant to be an easter egg, when its documented in the cheat sheet _and_ in the feature page with all the other important features. You personally don't see it as important, or useful, or necessary, fine. But I'm not convinced that as a feature its a thrown over the wall piece of cuteness added for a PR bulletpoint. I'm more inclined to believe that given the breadth of the re-design work that has been done and still needs to be done (Shell is a work-in-progress after all). this particular feature is just a lower design priority and thus hasn't been adequately flushed out yet in terms of its discoverable interaction model. -jef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 11:40 +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: Remember how long it took for git to get from hated, complicated, I-dont-know-how-to-use-it thingamagic to best thing since sliced bread? I'll let you know when I finally figure out how to use it ;) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 13:22 -0400, Paul Wouters wrote: gnome3 was not driven by user feedbak. It was driven by getting vendors to install it on factory shipped netbooks. ooh! another conspiracy theory for the collection! (takes note) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:55:52AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 06/17/2011 11:36 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote: Dne 17.6.2011 11:14, Ralf Corsepius napsal(a): On 06/17/2011 10:56 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. Rest assured, it is not ... esp. on cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. The workflow is: 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not click there.) Apart of the fact, track pad click are disabled by default in F15's Gnome3 (IMO: silly - They are enabled in Ubuntu), the click isn't my point. With Gnome3, if only using a mouse/trackpad/pointing device, you are travelling very long distances on screen - Much longer distances than in Gnome 2 - This is a problem with cheap trackpads (My F15 test system is a cheap, 1st generation atom-based netbook) IMO this is largely a problem with the current synaptics driver, not necessarily with the trackpad. I've been too busy with other stuff to get this fixed in a reasonable time but at least there are some patches upstream that should make touchpads more useable again in the near future. May be you are not following the development of other desktops, but for example Windows 7 has the same principle. Correct. I am not using Windows nor Mac OS X. Open the start menu, type the application name and the filtered list appears. The only difference that windows shows by default icons of most favorite applications where in Gnome 3 you have pin them. But this is more or less similar to W7 taskbar on the other hand. So in conclusion it is not that surprising at the end, that W7 and G3 are pretty similar. Also the icons are getting bigger on both platforms. Well, it's obvious to me Gnome 3 is trying to immitate W7, OS X and iOS, but ... may-be you may want to think about why users are not using these and are using Linux instead? Trying to merge an argument about Linux vs proprietary systems with an argument about desktop environments is risky. There are plenty of people out there that run Linux on servers but Win/OS X on their desktop. Desktop environment design is not the prime motive for many users choosing Linux. One of the reasons used to be the Gnome2 DE being different from these rsp. these other OSes not meeting this user's groups demands. In other words: IMO, due the way Gnome3 is taking, Gnome 3 has thrown away one of the key-advantages it had offered (and has become a W7 etc. immitation cult) and thus has become non-interesting to at least some Linux-users (e.g. me). IMO the differences between GNOME 3, OS X and Win XP/Vista (sorry, I have yet to try Win 7) are more pronounced than the differences between XP, OS 9 and GNOME 2 where the main difference seemed to be the theming and where the task bar was located. Just because some features are the same or similar doesn't make it identical. For example, I have yet to hear claims that OS X is like Gnome because it has a Spaces feature (virtual desktops). That said, IMO, Gnome 3 should be added a classic GUI-design, with toplevel menus/cascaded, file-browser etc. To me personally, Gnome 3 is the primary cause for currently evalutating other distros and other DEs, and the primary (the secondary is systemd) cause for not upgrading to Fedora 15. GNOME 3 is a rather big change from a desktop environment that was largely identical for years. After such a long time, trying to adjust to a different workflow in so little time is optimistic. That's one of the key features - GNOME 3 doesn't just try to make things pretty in a different way, it encourages a new workflow. I don't agree with some design decisions but so far much of that is because my muscle memory gets in the way. Once that problem goes away, I can actually start evaluating GNOME 3 for my purposes and make a sensible decision on whether it's better or worse for me. Remember how long it took for git to get from hated, complicated, I-dont-know-how-to-use-it thingamagic to best thing since sliced bread? (YMMV depending on your local bakery) same thing, git forced a workflow change, not just a UI change. Cheers, Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 11:36 PM, Evandro Giovanini wrote: those who are want to rewrite/modify GNOME3. No, I'm not. There are several working extensions *today*, I'm simply suggesting that people not 100% satisfied with the default GNOME 3 experience go out there and experiment with them. It's definitely easier to install an extension even today than to migrate to an entirely different distribution with a completely different desktop environment and default set of applications. I don't agree with this at all - and you don't need to switch distros unless systemd drives you up the wall - its way easier to switch from Gnome 2 to KDE than it is to switch to Gnome 3/Shell + fiddling with extensions. You have no choice but to change DE's now - Gnome 3 is just one choice - the others may offer more functionality and be a simpler transition - as a Gnome user thats what I am finding. I'd say its definitely easier to change to KDE or XFCE than to Gnome 3hell (speaking as an F14 gnome 2 user). 3rd party extension stuff - who is checking the code for privacy/security issues anyway? From my perspective so far changing from Gnome-2 to KDE is an easier and less obstructive change than to Gnome 3hell. I have installed and plan to try LXDE and XFCE as well ... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: For more 'advanced' users, the keyboard shortcuts are there, and you're probably going to want to use them if you don't want to gnaw your own legs off out of boredom. No, they're not particularly discoverable: it's very difficult to design an interface which makes keyboard shortcuts discoverable without pissing you off once you know them. I mean, when have keyboard shortcuts ever been discoverable? Is alt-tab discoverable? Is alt-f4? No. We just pick them up somewhere and learn them. is everything that gnome shell can do exposed as a non-keyboard interactions? Can you describe to me how I get the screencasting utility to start and stop recording without using a keyboard shortcut? There's no evidence of that functionality is in the discoverable UI. I can forgive the Alt to poweroff because poweroff is still exposed in the login screen as a non-keyboard interaction option...so it's still exposed as a pointing device only feature in the expected interaction model of the overall system. But the screencaster utility isn't exposed a a discoverable pointing device interaction in the UI itself anywhere as far as I can tell..and that makes me marginally grumpy. But not as grumpy as the choice to use a 4 finger salute to activate it via the keyboard. If you want to ensure a 75% occurrence rate of fat-finger execution error...require 4 simultaneous key presses. -jef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 08:42 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: For more 'advanced' users, the keyboard shortcuts are there, and you're probably going to want to use them if you don't want to gnaw your own legs off out of boredom. No, they're not particularly discoverable: it's very difficult to design an interface which makes keyboard shortcuts discoverable without pissing you off once you know them. I mean, when have keyboard shortcuts ever been discoverable? Is alt-tab discoverable? Is alt-f4? No. We just pick them up somewhere and learn them. is everything that gnome shell can do exposed as a non-keyboard interactions? Can you describe to me how I get the screencasting utility to start and stop recording without using a keyboard shortcut? There's no evidence of that functionality is in the discoverable UI. I can forgive the Alt to poweroff because poweroff is still exposed in the login screen as a non-keyboard interaction option...so it's still exposed as a pointing device only feature in the expected interaction model of the overall system. But the screencaster utility isn't exposed a a discoverable pointing device interaction in the UI itself anywhere as far as I can tell..and that makes me marginally grumpy. But not as grumpy as the choice to use a 4 finger salute to activate it via the keyboard. If you want to ensure a 75% occurrence rate of fat-finger execution error...require 4 simultaneous key presses. That's a pretty unique example. It's really not core desktop functionality; it's an easter egg, really. I think it was initially put in purely for the use of GNOME PR / documentation people, and left in because it wasn't hurting anything, and reviewers might like it. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: That's a pretty unique example. It's really not core desktop functionality; it's an easter egg, really. I think it was initially put in purely for the use of GNOME PR / documentation people, and left in because it wasn't hurting anything, and reviewers might like it. Just to be clear, eould you also consider the binding the Prnt Scrn labeled keyboard key to the screenshot took as non-core easter egg functionality? -jef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 10:00 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: Just to be clear, eould you also consider the binding the Prnt Scrn labeled keyboard key to the screenshot took as non-core easter egg functionality? Probably not, but I wouldn't say they're equivalent. I don't think many people expect their desktop to have a screen recorder built in. I can't think of any other desktop that _does_. When I said Shell was fully mouse accessible I was talking about typical operations, not every single thing it's potentially capable of. I'm really not sure what the point of this side track is; what does anyone gain by you picking very small holes in my generalization? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Adam Williamson wrote: This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. The Giant Grid O' Icons is navigable with a much higher success rate. There are less radical solutions for these problems though, see e.g. KDE's Kickoff menu. (But I can't get used even to that, I use the classic menu which KDE Plasma also offers.) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Am 17.06.2011 03:59, schrieb Adam Williamson: On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 01:19 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote: My impression is that GNOME3 is trying to compete with Android and FrontRow, but have forgotten all of us who still uses desktops/laptops. We don't have touch screens yet The reason for the large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user research (yes, really!) The Giant Grid O' Icons is navigable with a much higher success rate so why in the world are the no simple options change such things? are you blind? as first question in the installer, really :-) in the mean time i had 4 medical operations on both eyes, on the right one i am missing a lense at this moment but this does nothing chnage in the HATE i get if a developer is wasting my space - this affetcs me as KDE user everytime i open a GTK/Gnome-App signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 10:56 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. Rest assured, it is not ... esp. on cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. With Gnome3 you 1stly have to tick on Applications (located left top on the screen), then hit this tiny scroll bar located ca. 1 in/2cm left of the right screen (not an easy task - Requires travelling almost the whole screen), then to navigate down several pages to find the applications your are looking for. When doing so, you often you are getting lost in non-self explanatory icons, with cryptic icon-names without tool tips, i.e you are not finding the app you are looking for. When working inside of another window, you now 1st have to switch the screen (to the Application screen), where formerly a simple click into the toplevel menu was required. The Giant Grid O' Icons is navigable with a much higher success rate. I disagree - It's one of the aspects I am blaming Gnome 3 for to be lacking of SW ergonomy. A simple application pane is suitable for kiosk-style (smartphone) installations with only a very small set of apps installed, but is unsuitable for a multipurpose desktop with 100s or 1000s of apps installed (such as home installations or developers' installations). Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Dne 17.6.2011 11:14, Ralf Corsepius napsal(a): On 06/17/2011 10:56 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. Rest assured, it is not ... esp. on cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. With Gnome3 you 1stly have to tick on Applications (located left top on the screen), then hit this tiny scroll bar located ca. 1 in/2cm left of the right screen (not an easy task - Requires travelling almost the whole screen), then to navigate down several pages to find the applications your are looking for. When doing so, you often you are getting lost in non-self explanatory icons, with cryptic icon-names without tool tips, i.e you are not finding the app you are looking for. When working inside of another window, you now 1st have to switch the screen (to the Application screen), where formerly a simple click into the toplevel menu was required. The workflow is: 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not click there.) 2) Type on the keyboard few character of the application name you want to run, e.g. cal and on your screen will be filtered Calculator and LibreOffice Calc 3) Click on the appropriate icon. Or alternatively: 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not click there.) 2) Click on your pined favorite application icon. If you go Application and try to find there you favorite app, then I have to congratulate to your patience. That was always the biggest pain of former DE to remember Oh, where is the terminal, is it in accessories, system management or other group? or Is the browser office application or internet?. To be honest, I don't care. The Giant Grid O' Icons is navigable with a much higher success rate. I disagree - It's one of the aspects I am blaming Gnome 3 for to be lacking of SW ergonomy. A simple application pane is suitable for kiosk-style (smartphone) installations with only a very small set of apps installed, but is unsuitable for a multipurpose desktop with 100s or 1000s of apps installed (such as home installations or developers' installations). Ralf May be you are not following the development of other desktops, but for example Windows 7 has the same principle. Open the start menu, type the application name and the filtered list appears. The only difference that windows shows by default icons of most favorite applications where in Gnome 3 you have pin them. But this is more or less similar to W7 taskbar on the other hand. So in conclusion it is not that surprising at the end, that W7 and G3 are pretty similar. Also the icons are getting bigger on both platforms. Vit -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 11:36 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote: Dne 17.6.2011 11:14, Ralf Corsepius napsal(a): On 06/17/2011 10:56 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. Rest assured, it is not ... esp. on cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. The workflow is: 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not click there.) Apart of the fact, track pad click are disabled by default in F15's Gnome3 (IMO: silly - They are enabled in Ubuntu), the click isn't my point. With Gnome3, if only using a mouse/trackpad/pointing device, you are travelling very long distances on screen - Much longer distances than in Gnome 2 - This is a problem with cheap trackpads (My F15 test system is a cheap, 1st generation atom-based netbook) May be you are not following the development of other desktops, but for example Windows 7 has the same principle. Correct. I am not using Windows nor Mac OS X. Open the start menu, type the application name and the filtered list appears. The only difference that windows shows by default icons of most favorite applications where in Gnome 3 you have pin them. But this is more or less similar to W7 taskbar on the other hand. So in conclusion it is not that surprising at the end, that W7 and G3 are pretty similar. Also the icons are getting bigger on both platforms. Well, it's obvious to me Gnome 3 is trying to immitate W7, OS X and iOS, but ... may-be you may want to think about why users are not using these and are using Linux instead? One of the reasons used to be the Gnome2 DE being different from these rsp. these other OSes not meeting this user's groups demands. In other words: IMO, due the way Gnome3 is taking, Gnome 3 has thrown away one of the key-advantages it had offered (and has become a W7 etc. immitation cult) and thus has become non-interesting to at least some Linux-users (e.g. me). That said, IMO, Gnome 3 should be added a classic GUI-design, with toplevel menus/cascaded, file-browser etc. To me personally, Gnome 3 is the primary cause for currently evalutating other distros and other DEs, and the primary (the secondary is systemd) cause for not upgrading to Fedora 15. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
RE: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
The workflow is: 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not click there.) 2) Type on the keyboard few character of the application name you want to run, e.g. cal and on your screen will be filtered Calculator and LibreOffice Calc 3) Click on the appropriate icon. Or alternatively: 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not click there.) 2) Click on your pined favorite application icon. If you go Application and try to find there you favorite app, then I have to congratulate to your patience. That was always the biggest pain of former DE to remember Oh, where is the terminal, is it in accessories, system management or other group? or Is the browser office application or internet?. To be honest, I don't care. Since you recommend not using the application menu, in other words, you agree that the application menu is useless? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 02:26 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. The Giant Grid O' Icons is navigable with a much higher success rate. There are less radical solutions for these problems though, see e.g. KDE's Kickoff menu. (But I can't get used even to that, I use the classic menu which KDE Plasma also offers.) I wonder why you recommend solutions you can't even get used to. In terms of usability, it is not clear to me kickoff is doing a better job at all. It is a rather convoluted way of organizing menu items and I had to switch it off and use the classic menu instead. I have used both and I found the GNOME 3 menu interface more familiar and less radical in fact. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Dne 17.6.2011 11:57, Henrik Wejdmark napsal(a): The workflow is: 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not click there.) 2) Type on the keyboard few character of the application name you want to run, e.g. cal and on your screen will be filtered Calculator and LibreOffice Calc 3) Click on the appropriate icon. Or alternatively: 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not click there.) 2) Click on your pined favorite application icon. If you go Application and try to find there you favorite app, then I have to congratulate to your patience. That was always the biggest pain of former DE to remember Oh, where is the terminal, is it in accessories, system management or other group? or Is the browser office application or internet?. To be honest, I don't care. Since you recommend not using the application menu, in other words, you agree that the application menu is useless? It is useful when you are looking for something and you don't know what exactly it is. In that case, it is much much better then the previous menus, because you have nice overview on one page and moreover you have the possibility to filter by groups for example. Vit -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
RE: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Since you recommend not using the application menu, in other words, you agree that the application menu is useless? It is useful when you are looking for something and you don't know what exactly it is. In that case, it is much much better then the previous menus, because you have nice overview on one page and moreover you have the possibility to filter by groups for example. On my desktop it's not on one page, it's a mile long listing so you get no overview at all. In Gnome2 at least all the apps are categorized. If the graphical user interface _requires_ you to use the keyboard to type the command it has failed it's task and we might as well go back to bash. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 03:50 PM, Henrik Wejdmark wrote: On my desktop it's not on one page, it's a mile long listing so you get no overview at all. In Gnome2 at least all the apps are categorized. If the graphical user interface _requires_ you to use the keyboard to type the command it has failed it's task and we might as well go back to bash. GNOME 3 menu has categories in the right as well but in any case, the common apps are in the dash and using a keyboard with a search as you type interface isn't the same as using bash. Let us not be dramatic. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 12:16 PM, Vít Ondruch wrote: Dne 17.6.2011 11:57, Henrik Wejdmark napsal(a): It is useful when you are looking for something and you don't know what exactly it is. In that case, it is much much better then the previous menus, because you have nice overview on one page and moreover you have the possibility to filter by groups for example. I disgree. With F14/gnome2 you clicked on Applications, then moved the mouse down the menu and navigated through the submenues by hovering the cursor over them. When doing so, you were presented tooltips outlining the purpose of the apps. All this required the mouse/trackpad to move for only very small distances. With F15/gnome3 you are presented a pane of icons with non-self-explanatory names, stretched over many screen, no tooltips, etc. The distances a mouse had to move are much longer than they used to be. The symbol-grounding issues (Which group might the app I am searching for be classified under?) is basically the same in both approaches. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
RE: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
GNOME 3 menu has categories in the right as well but in any case, the common apps are in the dash and using a keyboard with a search as you type interface isn't the same as using bash. Let us not be dramatic. Rahul As has been stated earlier in this thread, having the hot spot in the top left corner and categories far right causes a lot of mouse movements. Common apps in the dash only opens the first instance, after that it switches to the existing instance, effectively doubling the functionality from the activities window. I'll end my argument here, and Gnome3 is the reason I'm now evaluating other DEs and distros. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Em Sex, 2011-06-17 às 11:55 +0200, Ralf Corsepius escreveu: On 06/17/2011 11:36 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote: Dne 17.6.2011 11:14, Ralf Corsepius napsal(a): On 06/17/2011 10:56 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. Rest assured, it is not ... esp. on cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. The workflow is: 1) Move the mouse to the to left corner (move is enough, you don't have to click. You even can drag and drop through activities, so learn to not click there.) Apart of the fact, track pad click are disabled by default in F15's Gnome3 (IMO: silly - They are enabled in Ubuntu), the click isn't my point. With Gnome3, if only using a mouse/trackpad/pointing device, you are travelling very long distances on screen - Much longer distances than in Gnome 2 - This is a problem with cheap trackpads (My F15 test system is a cheap, 1st generation atom-based netbook) May be you are not following the development of other desktops, but for example Windows 7 has the same principle. Correct. I am not using Windows nor Mac OS X. Open the start menu, type the application name and the filtered list appears. The only difference that windows shows by default icons of most favorite applications where in Gnome 3 you have pin them. But this is more or less similar to W7 taskbar on the other hand. So in conclusion it is not that surprising at the end, that W7 and G3 are pretty similar. Also the icons are getting bigger on both platforms. Well, it's obvious to me Gnome 3 is trying to immitate W7, OS X and iOS, but ... may-be you may want to think about why users are not using these and are using Linux instead? One of the reasons used to be the Gnome2 DE being different from these rsp. these other OSes not meeting this user's groups demands. In other words: IMO, due the way Gnome3 is taking, Gnome 3 has thrown away one of the key-advantages it had offered (and has become a W7 etc. immitation cult) and thus has become non-interesting to at least some Linux-users (e.g. me). That said, IMO, Gnome 3 should be added a classic GUI-design, with toplevel menus/cascaded, file-browser etc. To me personally, Gnome 3 is the primary cause for currently evalutating other distros and other DEs, and the primary (the secondary is systemd) cause for not upgrading to Fedora 15. I'm not really sure I get what you're asking for here. GNOME 3 does have the classic (Win95-like) design installed by default and all you have to do is enable fallback mode in order to use it. In addition to that the GNOME Shell is highly customizable and you can have a traditional application menu right on the top menu bar if you'd like. You can check out the extensions available in Fedora, the ones here [1] and several others you can search on Google. The GNOME developers are also working on a website to make installing and managing extensions as easy as it is with Firefox. Evandro [1]. http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/extensions/index.html -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 15:50 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 06/17/2011 03:50 PM, Henrik Wejdmark wrote: On my desktop it's not on one page, it's a mile long listing so you get no overview at all. In Gnome2 at least all the apps are categorized. If the graphical user interface _requires_ you to use the keyboard to type the command it has failed it's task and we might as well go back to bash. GNOME 3 menu has categories in the right as well but in any case, the common apps are in the dash and using a keyboard with a search as you type interface isn't the same as using bash. Let us not be dramatic. Rahul Considering the frequent calls of Gnome 3 has failed at its task or the GUI has failed if the user must makes me wonder: Where is the task definition or specification against which the implementation has failed? Doesn't live up to my expectation is very different from Doesn't comply with spec and both are different from Is a bad design. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
RE: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 12:20 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote: Since you recommend not using the application menu, in other words, you agree that the application menu is useless? It is useful when you are looking for something and you don't know what exactly it is. In that case, it is much much better then the previous menus, because you have nice overview on one page and moreover you have the possibility to filter by groups for example. On my desktop it's not on one page, it's a mile long listing so you get no overview at all. In Gnome2 at least all the apps are categorized. If the graphical user interface _requires_ you to use the keyboard to type the command It doesn't require you to type the command. You can search for bro and among the results will be Nautilus and Firefox (hint: Gnome Shell also searches in the application description, and both are browsers). -- Mathieu -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 03:59 PM, Henrik Wejdmark wrote: As has been stated earlier in this thread, having the hot spot in the top left corner and categories far right causes a lot of mouse movements. Common apps in the dash only opens the first instance, after that it switches to the existing instance, effectively doubling the functionality from the activities window. I use Windows key and control + click for these things correspondingly. Middle click launches the app in a new workspace which is convenient as well I'll end my argument here, and Gnome3 is the reason I'm now evaluating other DEs and distros. You are free to do that. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 06:48:14PM +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote: On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 12:20 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote: Since you recommend not using the application menu, in other words, you agree that the application menu is useless? It is useful when you are looking for something and you don't know what exactly it is. In that case, it is much much better then the previous menus, because you have nice overview on one page and moreover you have the possibility to filter by groups for example. On my desktop it's not on one page, it's a mile long listing so you get no overview at all. In Gnome2 at least all the apps are categorized. If the graphical user interface _requires_ you to use the keyboard to type the command It doesn't require you to type the command. You can search for bro and among the results will be Nautilus and Firefox (hint: Gnome Shell also searches in the application description, and both are browsers). I can't believe real usability testing was done on the final version of GNOME 3. I keep hearing about all these completely undiscoverable keyboard shortcuts that appear to be necessary to use GNOME 3 with any sort of effectiveness. When I struggled with GNOME 3 for about a week I didn't discover or use any keyboard shortcuts. Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones New in Fedora 11: Fedora Windows cross-compiler. Compile Windows programs, test, and build Windows installers. Over 70 libraries supprt'd http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MinGW http://www.annexia.org/fedora_mingw -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Dne 17.6.2011 12:29, Ralf Corsepius napsal(a): On 06/17/2011 12:16 PM, Vít Ondruch wrote: Dne 17.6.2011 11:57, Henrik Wejdmark napsal(a): It is useful when you are looking for something and you don't know what exactly it is. In that case, it is much much better then the previous menus, because you have nice overview on one page and moreover you have the possibility to filter by groups for example. I disgree. With F14/gnome2 you clicked on Applications, then moved the mouse down the menu and navigated through the submenues by hovering the cursor over them. When doing so, you were presented tooltips outlining the purpose of the apps. All this required the mouse/trackpad to move for only very small distances. With F15/gnome3 you are presented a pane of icons with non-self-explanatory names, stretched over many screen, no tooltips, etc. The distances a mouse had to move are much longer than they used to be. The symbol-grounding issues (Which group might the app I am searching for be classified under?) is basically the same in both approaches. Ralf Well if you don't know what you have installed in your computer, and especially if you have installed everything, because one cannot know when you will need it, and you have no keyboard, no mouse, no touchscreen, just crappy touchpad, then I agree and I am sorry, no modern DE can work for you. Vit -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 01:02 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 06:48:14PM +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote: On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 12:20 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote: Since you recommend not using the application menu, in other words, you agree that the application menu is useless? It is useful when you are looking for something and you don't know what exactly it is. In that case, it is much much better then the previous menus, because you have nice overview on one page and moreover you have the possibility to filter by groups for example. On my desktop it's not on one page, it's a mile long listing so you get no overview at all. In Gnome2 at least all the apps are categorized. If the graphical user interface _requires_ you to use the keyboard to type the command It doesn't require you to type the command. You can search for bro and among the results will be Nautilus and Firefox (hint: Gnome Shell also searches in the application description, and both are browsers). I can't believe real usability testing was done on the final version of GNOME 3. I keep hearing about all these completely undiscoverable keyboard shortcuts that appear to be necessary to use GNOME 3 with any sort of effectiveness. When I struggled with GNOME 3 for about a week I didn't discover or use any keyboard shortcuts. I think what is required is an application that starts when the desktop is launched for the first time and that offers the user a short introduction to the basic principles of the desktop. Easy discoverability and good usability may sometimes go hand in hand but also at times are mutual exclusive. Having a short introductory pamphlet would help the user understand the basics without resorting to awkward tool-tips or pop-ups to nudge the user in the right direction. Regards, Dennis -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 12:48 PM, Mathieu Bridon wrote: On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 12:20 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote: You can search for bro and among the results will be Nautilus and Firefox (hint: Gnome Shell also searches in the application description, and both are browsers). A keyword search is appropriate when you already know what you are looking for but not if you only have fuzzy imagination about what you are looking for. That said keyword search can't replace extended browsing (such as gnome 2 supplied through tooltips). Or differently: How are newcomers or users who are looking for an application to perform an infrequent task expected find out what an application does rsp. which application is hiding underneath an icon with Gnome 3? Requiring users to launch all of them (which seems to be Gnome 3's philosophy, AFAIS) definitely is not the solution. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 17/06/11 12:17, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: On 06/17/2011 01:02 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: I can't believe real usability testing was done on the final version of GNOME 3. I keep hearing about all these completely undiscoverable keyboard shortcuts that appear to be necessary to use GNOME 3 with any sort of effectiveness. When I struggled with GNOME 3 for about a week I didn't discover or use any keyboard shortcuts. I think what is required is an application that starts when the desktop is launched for the first time and that offers the user a short introduction to the basic principles of the desktop. Easy discoverability and good usability may sometimes go hand in hand but also at times are mutual exclusive. Having a short introductory pamphlet would help the user understand the basics without resorting to awkward tool-tips or pop-ups to nudge the user in the right direction. KISS. F1 should launch the help app by default. It's configured to do so, but doesn't. I presume there's a bug for that. After a couple of days I typed help in the search box and was enlightened. This help does have an intro section, but it's long winded. There should be a TL;DR section presented first with basic navigation and shortcuts. cheers, Pádraig. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
2011/6/17 Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com: On 06/17/2011 03:59 PM, Henrik Wejdmark wrote: As has been stated earlier in this thread, having the hot spot in the top left corner and categories far right causes a lot of mouse movements. Common apps in the dash only opens the first instance, after that it switches to the existing instance, effectively doubling the functionality from the activities window. I use Windows key and control + click for these things correspondingly. Middle click launches the app in a new workspace which is convenient as well The shortest way is by using keyboard, as Rahul says: 1. Press the key between Ctrl and Alt. 2. Type in what you search, at least the first letters. After that, some icons are shown and you may use up and down arrow keys to select. 3. After selecting the application you want, press Enter, and that's it. Access through keyboard was something missing in previous GNOME. End users go faster if they only use keyboard (of course, the program and the desktop environment should be prepared for that). I forced the change from F14 to F15 in some production desktops, and this is what end-users said to me: it's a lot faster, it's different, but a lot faster. It's just a matter to get used to it. I was sceptic the first time, and probably I would have said the same as first posts in this thread, but end users have the last and valuable word, and nobody can't deny it. I'm just commenting what I saw in an F15 deployment in production. kind regards Domingo Becker -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Em Sex, 2011-06-17 às 13:43 +0200, Ralf Corsepius escreveu: On 06/17/2011 12:48 PM, Mathieu Bridon wrote: On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 12:20 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote: You can search for bro and among the results will be Nautilus and Firefox (hint: Gnome Shell also searches in the application description, and both are browsers). A keyword search is appropriate when you already know what you are looking for but not if you only have fuzzy imagination about what you are looking for. That said keyword search can't replace extended browsing (such as gnome 2 supplied through tooltips). Or differently: How are newcomers or users who are looking for an application to perform an infrequent task expected find out what an application does rsp. which application is hiding underneath an icon with Gnome 3? Requiring users to launch all of them (which seems to be Gnome 3's philosophy, AFAIS) definitely is not the solution. I would argue that simply typing a keyword related to the task you're trying to perform is far more effective and easier to use than manually browsing a long list of applications artificially categorized, specially in this age of users like my mom, who actually still types hotmail on the web browser search bar in order to read her e-mail. Evandro -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
* Domingo Becker [17/06/2011 14:21] : Access through keyboard was something missing in previous GNOME. End users go faster if they only use keyboard (of course, the program and the desktop environment should be prepared for that). Agreed. Before installing F15, I was sceptic about having to search for applications. After using it for a week, I can't imagine going back to a menu-based solution. Emmanuel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 5:14 AM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: With Gnome3 you 1stly have to tick on Applications (located left top on the screen), then hit this tiny scroll bar located ca. 1 in/2cm left of the right screen (not an easy task - Requires travelling almost the whole screen), then to navigate down several pages to find the applications your are looking for. When doing so, you often you are getting lost in non-self explanatory icons, with cryptic icon-names without tool tips, i.e you are not finding the app you are looking for. Actually, there's an easier way. Press the Super key (typically the one with the logo of another operating system on it), and start typing the name or description of the app you want to launch. I almost never spend time scrolling through the list of applications. -- Jared Smith Fedora Project Leader -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 09:01:57AM -0300, Evandro Giovanini wrote: I would argue that simply typing a keyword related to the task you're trying to perform is far more effective and easier to use than manually browsing a long list of applications artificially categorized, specially in this age of users like my mom, who actually still types hotmail on the web browser search bar in order to read her e-mail. Google *is* the web's command line. So is GNOME 3 it would appear ... Whether any of this helps new users is something you can only find out by frequent testing on new users. Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones libguestfs lets you edit virtual machines. Supports shell scripting, bindings from many languages. http://libguestfs.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 02:53 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 5:14 AM, Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de wrote: With Gnome3 you 1stly have to tick on Applications (located left top on the screen), then hit this tiny scroll bar located ca. 1 in/2cm left of the right screen (not an easy task - Requires travelling almost the whole screen), then to navigate down several pages to find the applications your are looking for. When doing so, you often you are getting lost in non-self explanatory icons, with cryptic icon-names without tool tips, i.e you are not finding the app you are looking for. Actually, there's an easier way. Press the Super key (typically the one with the logo of another operating system on it), and start typing the name or description of the app you want to launch. I almost never spend time scrolling through the list of applications. ... you mean by holy ghost intuition, feel tempted to press a key to access a hidden feature, where once was a simple feature? Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 06:51 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: ... you mean by holy ghost intuition, feel tempted to press a key to access a hidden feature, where once was a simple feature? Alt+F1 which was the shortcut for accessing the menu still works. For GUI users, they just hit the hot corner. For anyone who is more through, read the help or cheatsheat Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 03:28 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 06/17/2011 06:51 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: ... you mean by holy ghost intuition, feel tempted to press a key to access a hidden feature, where once was a simple feature? Alt+F1 which was the shortcut for accessing the menu still works. For GUI users, they just hit the hot corner. For anyone who is more through, read the help or cheatsheat Or leave gnome 3 rsp Fedora alone. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 07:08 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 06/17/2011 03:28 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 06/17/2011 06:51 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: ... you mean by holy ghost intuition, feel tempted to press a key to access a hidden feature, where once was a simple feature? Alt+F1 which was the shortcut for accessing the menu still works. For GUI users, they just hit the hot corner. For anyone who is more through, read the help or cheatsheat Or leave gnome 3 rsp Fedora alone. Sure and don't participate in discussions about it either since you already picked alternatives. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 5:21 AM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: ... you mean by holy ghost intuition, feel tempted to press a key to access a hidden feature, where once was a simple feature? The question really isn't whether or not to make use of the newer keys. The real question is how to make it learnable without being able to paint the label on the physical key. If the Esc key on the keyboards were not painted with a printed hint...would people be able to find it on all keyboards? I've seen Esc in various relative locations on the keyboard interface over the years depending on the keyboard. Or the numlock or the delete? The painted hinting on the keyboard itself matter a lot and we don't have a good alternative to good key labels. What I am really saying is that the deeper problem with learnability of new keyboard driven features is that the hardware and the software development for pretty much the entire open ecosystem we work with in Fedora is disconnected. If GNOME( or KDE or other project..its not GNOME specific issue) was like Apple and controlled the design of the hardware as well as the user interface for the OS and were allowed to paint the physical keys with the printed hinting appropriate for the OS... a lot of the learnability frustration for new keyboard driven features would be mitigated. Just, look at all the extra keys on modern OEM laptops from the Dell's and the Lenovo's and others...extra keys which map to OS specific or BIOS specific functionality that they as OEMs design the hardware for to interact with the OS they _ship_. None of this stuff is standardized...and yet the OEMs feel perfectly fine doing it and selling differentiated keypress devices in the market. Of all the systems you can go out and buy at a major consumer retailer in the US(and I say the US because that's were I am and thus I can't speak to other places with authority) or from major online OEMs how many laptops have a standard layout with no extra functionality keys? 1%? less? The _standard_ keyboard from 10 years ago is not the full story for retail hardware that is being produced and bought now. For us to pretend that it is...is just putting our heads in the sand...and giving up. So how do we make the use of these keyboard driven functionality more discoverable? I don't know. I'm not a UI designer. But I would like to see a UI designer discuss keyboard functionality discoverability. Moreover, I would like to see 2 or more UI designers have a public archived meaty discussion on the topic that I can read and learn from. -jefMy current fav gnome-shell keyboard incantation is the screencast recorderthere is no way on earth I'm going to remember that 4 simultaneous keypress combo. And just as unlikely for me to There is a reason I was never good at Mortal Kombat...the key combos were just not my strengthspaleta -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 11:36:21 +0200 Vít Ondruch vondr...@redhat.com wrote: So in conclusion it is not that surprising at the end, that W7 and G3 are pretty similar. Tha's no excuse. Also the icons are getting bigger on both platforms. Yes and the text labels are tiny. Most icons are useless, they are equally meaningless in any language. So Gnome3 actively has made it harder to find applications that I don't use frequently. That's not brilliant, especially after they supposedly have done research on this. No, it looks like they did some research, and then didn't come up with any new ideas. -- Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:33:18 +0900 夜神 岩男 supergiantpot...@yahoo.co.jp wrote: Considering the frequent calls of Gnome 3 has failed at its task or the GUI has failed if the user must makes me wonder: Where is the task definition or specification against which the implementation has failed? Doesn't live up to my expectation is very different from Doesn't comply with spec and both are different from Is a bad design. How about a spec then of what Gnome3 was trying to achiece, and how about those who like it telling us how Gnome3 achieved those things? -- Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 3:59 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 01:19 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote:
My impression is that GNOME3 is trying to compete with Android and FrontRow,
but have forgotten all of us who still uses desktops/laptops. We don't have
touch screens yet
This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the
large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user
research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant
trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full
of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by
moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because
the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor
pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops.
Hm, but then this problem was not at all solved. Every Important
Application(tm) (i.e. Firefox, LibreOffice, Empathy) uses the same
menu widgets, and uses nested menus. A real solution would
necessarily involve changes to the GTK menu widget (and, well, perhaps
actually using the GTK widget set for gnome-shell).
Currently, when I open the giant application grid, I get oversized
meaningless pictures (yes, oversized - to even see the grid I had to
click on the Applications label, which is much smaller than the
icons), accompanied with some text in tiny font that is impossible to
read at a glance, but apparently still too large to fit text on
screen, resulting in Wireshark Network An
And as for the keyboard search:
* The grid contains two Aktualizace softwaru (Software Update{,s}
in English) icons, and search returns one of them perhaps 80% of the
time, and the other in 20%. The old menu actually allowed developing
some muscle memory to reach a specific item, the search doesn't.
* Try typing bittorrent: you'll get an image that I can best
describe as one of the devices used to set off explosions in comic
books, with Transmission written under it. Why should the user feel
that they want to start _that_ program?
Mirek
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 10:04 -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:33:18 +0900 夜神 岩男 supergiantpot...@yahoo.co.jp wrote: Considering the frequent calls of Gnome 3 has failed at its task or the GUI has failed if the user must makes me wonder: Where is the task definition or specification against which the implementation has failed? Doesn't live up to my expectation is very different from Doesn't comply with spec and both are different from Is a bad design. How about a spec then of what Gnome3 was trying to achiece, and how about those who like it telling us how Gnome3 achieved those things? And this is precisely my point. At the moment criticism and defense both seem a bit aimless because we aren't seeing any references to the interface research someone said happened, interface specifications or even a concept discussion/summary about what gnome-shell was supposed to achieve. It was a serious undertaking, so I'm certain they had goals which were at least clear to someone at some point. So far I haven't been able to locate whatever dialogue was had withing the GNOME dev team about the new interface design; I've looked, just obviously not hard enough or in the wrong places. I'll find it eventually when I have time, this issue will someday deeply affect my customers, so this is important to me. As far as smoothly integrated introductory first-run interface tutorials or whatever, I strongly suspect that the angst had to this point over the limited discoverability problems some perceive will prompt a pleasant adjustment in the nearish future -- but I've been wrong about these things before. -Iwao -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 11:14 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 06/17/2011 10:56 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. Rest assured, it is not ... esp. on cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. With Gnome3 you 1stly have to tick on Applications (located left top on the screen) It's a hot spot, and there's a keyboard short cut (as there was before, so no change there). , then hit this tiny scroll bar located ca. 1 in/2cm left of the right screen (not an easy task - Requires travelling almost the whole screen), then to navigate down several pages to find the applications your are looking for. If you're not going to use keyboard search, you can use the categories, which should reduce the choices to the point that you don't need the scrollbar. You can also of course use wheel scroll, or the trackpad equivalent. When doing so, you often you are getting lost in non-self explanatory icons, with cryptic icon-names without tool tips, i.e you are not finding the app you are looking for. None of these icons or names have been changed; it's still just an XDG desktop menu spec implementation, so it uses the icons and names specified in the /usr/share/applications/*.desktop files, as did GNOME 2 and as do KDE, Xfce and LXDE. When working inside of another window, you now 1st have to switch the screen (to the Application screen), where formerly a simple click into the toplevel menu was required. Yeah, I don't like the tabbing in the overview either, and I've mentioned this on the Shell list. It seems like the tabbing between 'windows' and 'applications' was a quick fix thrown in without a lot of thought, and it rather compromises the original idea of the overview as a single view. In this regard I preferred the F14 Shell implementation, where applications and files were a sidebar on the left, with windows in the main space on the right. The Giant Grid O' Icons is navigable with a much higher success rate. I disagree - It's one of the aspects I am blaming Gnome 3 for to be lacking of SW ergonomy. A simple application pane is suitable for kiosk-style (smartphone) installations with only a very small set of apps installed, but is unsuitable for a multipurpose desktop with 100s or 1000s of apps installed (such as home installations or developers' installations). Hence the use of categories. A single scrollable list of 24-pixel high entries for every app on the system wouldn't be very useful either - that's why the 'start menu' has categories, and the Shell has the same categories. But you don't lose your category if you move your mouse to the wrong place on the screen, as you did with the nested menus... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 12:02 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: You can search for bro and among the results will be Nautilus and Firefox (hint: Gnome Shell also searches in the application description, and both are browsers). I can't believe real usability testing was done on the final version of GNOME 3. I keep hearing about all these completely undiscoverable keyboard shortcuts that appear to be necessary to use GNOME 3 with any sort of effectiveness. When I struggled with GNOME 3 for about a week I didn't discover or use any keyboard shortcuts. Consider it a two-level interface. For complete beginners or those who will always use a very slow, hunt-and-peck type approach to anything, GNOME 3 is entirely navigable with a mouse and meant to be quite discoverable and 'reliable' when used in this way. This is a priority over it being fast and efficient when used this way, because if you want fast and efficient, you can use shortcuts. For more 'advanced' users, the keyboard shortcuts are there, and you're probably going to want to use them if you don't want to gnaw your own legs off out of boredom. No, they're not particularly discoverable: it's very difficult to design an interface which makes keyboard shortcuts discoverable without pissing you off once you know them. I mean, when have keyboard shortcuts ever been discoverable? Is alt-tab discoverable? Is alt-f4? No. We just pick them up somewhere and learn them. Because GNOME 3 is a new design there are a few uses of the keyboard in it that you probably wouldn't know about previously. So, as an advanced you learn about them. It'll take you ten minutes and then you're done, just as it took you ten minutes to learn the keyboard shortcuts you know already, ten minutes to learn about piping and xargs and grep and find and the awesomebar and and all those other little shortcuts you use all the time in any application you're at all familiar with, in order to be more efficient with it. http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/CheatSheet -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 00:30 +0900, 夜神 岩男 wrote: On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 10:04 -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:33:18 +0900 夜神 岩男 supergiantpot...@yahoo.co.jp wrote: Considering the frequent calls of Gnome 3 has failed at its task or the GUI has failed if the user must makes me wonder: Where is the task definition or specification against which the implementation has failed? Doesn't live up to my expectation is very different from Doesn't comply with spec and both are different from Is a bad design. How about a spec then of what Gnome3 was trying to achiece, and how about those who like it telling us how Gnome3 achieved those things? And this is precisely my point. At the moment criticism and defense both seem a bit aimless because we aren't seeing any references to the interface research someone said happened, interface specifications or even a concept discussion/summary about what gnome-shell was supposed to achieve. It was a serious undertaking, so I'm certain they had goals which were at least clear to someone at some point. https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/ and all the links listed at the end of that page. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 09:44:45 -0700 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 00:30 +0900, 夜神 岩男 wrote: On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 10:04 -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:33:18 +0900 夜神 岩男 supergiantpot...@yahoo.co.jp wrote: Considering the frequent calls of Gnome 3 has failed at its task or the GUI has failed if the user must makes me wonder: Where is the task definition or specification against which the implementation has failed? Doesn't live up to my expectation is very different from Doesn't comply with spec and both are different from Is a bad design. How about a spec then of what Gnome3 was trying to achiece, and how about those who like it telling us how Gnome3 achieved those things? And this is precisely my point. At the moment criticism and defense both seem a bit aimless because we aren't seeing any references to the interface research someone said happened, interface specifications or even a concept discussion/summary about what gnome-shell was supposed to achieve. It was a serious undertaking, so I'm certain they had goals which were at least clear to someone at some point. https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/ I think it fails on #1: Makes it easy for users to focus on their current task and reduces distraction and interruption First, this point assumes that there is *one* current task. That is not how I work. I have one main task, and I keep an eye on some other things, like whose is in some chats, what comes up in twitter flows, etc. Then, if I want to start up some minor activity, GnomeShell has replaces the small menus with a full screen menu. My eyes have to completely refocus, and I have to hunt all over the screen for the purpose of finding the small infrequently used application I want to start. This is a *big* disruption of the main work I was doing, to the goal listed first was not achieved. It all looks very pretty though. -- Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Domingo Becker domingobec...@gmail.com wrote: The shortest way is by using keyboard, as Rahul says: 1. Press the key between Ctrl and Alt. 2. Type in what you search, at least the first letters. After that, some icons are shown and you may use up and down arrow keys to select. 3. After selecting the application you want, press Enter, and that's it. Agreed - it is a bit odd, but I am getting used to it, and as your users report, it's fast and practical. And I have a use for the damn 'windows' key! (Alt-F2 is the alternative for un-branded keyboards). And ctrl-tab + ctrl-~ is an excellent timesaver. Got used to it on the mac, and I think KDE had it but if Gnome had it I never found it. It's a new UI -- we all have things we're used to so it is easy to focus on a change you dislike. But overall, if you try to play the game it proposes it is good. It does have issues though - bring back poweroff ;-) - applications browsing can be improved -- the scrollbar is too thin and subtle, icons miss tooltips... - various oddities with dual-head setup vs... - the hot-corner - sometimes it's between your monitors! - the hot-topbar - vertically stacked monitors are unusable my 2c m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- Software Architect - OLPC - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/17/2011 06:21 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 11:14 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 06/17/2011 10:56 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user research (yes, really!) and found that many people had significant trouble navigating the typical Windows / GNOME 2 nested menu system full of wide-but-short entries. They would lose levels in the nesting by moving the mouse a bit wrong. They would launch the wrong thing because the target area was too short. This was especially pronounced with poor pointing devices - particularly cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. Rest assured, it is not ... esp. on cheap trackpads on cheap laptops. With Gnome3 you 1stly have to tick on Applications (located left top on the screen) It's a hot spot, and there's a keyboard short cut (as there was before, so no change there). I never used this shortcut, because there wasn't any need to do so. Navigating with the mouse was sufficient. [BTW: Gnome once had underlined chars for the short-cuts - Where have they gone to?] , then hit this tiny scroll bar located ca. 1 in/2cm left of the right screen (not an easy task - Requires travelling almost the whole screen), then to navigate down several pages to find the applications your are looking for. If you're not going to use keyboard search, you can use the categories, As already having been discussed elsewhere, categories are of limited use, as well are the mere icon names. You can also of course use wheel scroll, or the trackpad equivalent. My netbook doesn't have any such device - Just a simple touchpad and 2 buttons. No mouse, no wheel, no fancy buttons. When doing so, you often you are getting lost in non-self explanatory icons, with cryptic icon-names without tool tips, i.e you are not finding the app you are looking for. None of these icons or names have been changed; it's still just an XDG desktop menu spec implementation, so it uses the icons and names specified in the /usr/share/applications/*.desktop files, as did GNOME 2 and as do KDE, Xfce and LXDE. They had tooltips, they had/have menus, they had popups. Now users are lost without explanation, without help, just with a big pane. [BTW: on my netbook (1024x600 pixel) the last row of the big pane is unselectable (shaded gray)] The Giant Grid O' Icons is navigable with a much higher success rate. I disagree - It's one of the aspects I am blaming Gnome 3 for to be lacking of SW ergonomy. A simple application pane is suitable for kiosk-style (smartphone) installations with only a very small set of apps installed, but is unsuitable for a multipurpose desktop with 100s or 1000s of apps installed (such as home installations or developers' installations). Hence the use of categories. Again, this is only useful if extended package explanation texts (such as tooltips) are available, because the package/icon names often are meaningless. In Gnome 3's current layout, a user doesn't have anyother choice but to try each application. A single scrollable list of 24-pixel high entries for every app on the system wouldn't be very useful either - that's why the 'start menu' has categories, and the Shell has the same categories. But you don't lose your category if you move your mouse to the wrong place on the screen, as you did with the nested menus... I didn't mean to say Gnome 2 was perfect (it definitely wasn't), but Gnome 3 ... some consider it to be revolutionary, others consider it childish and silly or at least to be immature. Openly said, though it shares much of the mindset of Gnome 3 and is similarly buggy, and though I regret of not being able to avoid saying so, I feel much more comfortable with the other linux's new DE on my netbook. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:43, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: Currently, when I open the giant application grid, I get oversized meaningless pictures (yes, oversized - to even see the grid I had to click on the Applications label, which is much smaller than the icons), Yeah, I don't like that tabbing either. It's going away: http://jimmac.musichall.cz/log/?p=1181 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 19:09 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: You can also of course use wheel scroll, or the trackpad equivalent. My netbook doesn't have any such device - Just a simple touchpad and 2 buttons. No mouse, no wheel, no fancy buttons. The 'trackpad equivalent' is usually either to drag down the right hand side of the trackpad, or do a two-finger drag anywhere on it (depending on the model of trackpad). Cutting the rest as it essentially seems to be three paragraphs of 'there's no tooltips', which as I said, I agree could be added. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Rahul Sundaram wrote: I wonder why you recommend solutions you can't even get used to. In terms of usability, it is not clear to me kickoff is doing a better job at all. It is a rather convoluted way of organizing menu items and I had to switch it off and use the classic menu instead. I have used both and I found the GNOME 3 menu interface more familiar and less radical in fact. Well, I can't get used to GNOME 3 either. (I even tried it once a couple weeks ago just for fun, I found their menu replacement completely bizarre.) Thankfully, I don't have to, I'm a KDE user anyway… Many people are happy with Kickoff. As to me personally, I'm pretty sure I won't get used to ANYTHING other than a good old classic menu, no matter how badly it fails in usability studies. Thankfully, KDE Plasma offers that to me as an option. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 01:05:08PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: I think it fails on #1: Makes it easy for users to focus on their current task and reduces distraction and interruption First, this point assumes that there is *one* current task. That is not how I work. I have one main task, and I keep an eye on some other things, like whose is in some chats, what comes up in twitter flows, etc. One could rephrase your complaint as I don't want to focus on my current task. So GNOME shell just isn't for you. --CJD -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 13:05 -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: It all looks very pretty though. Maybe someone can answer this... All of the fade and animation effects that a lot of the toolkits/desktops are using these days seem like they're making the responsiveness substantially worse. I'm not referring to machine performance so much as the amount of time it (seems) to take to be able to interact with something. So, my question is: are the effects increasing the time between requested action and the ability to interact, or are they covering up the dead time that would have been there anyway, a la startup screens? From my vantage point, I'd much rather have things just snap on/off instead of watching them be all analog-y :) Brian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:02:14 -0400 Casey Dahlin cdah...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 01:05:08PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: I think it fails on #1: Makes it easy for users to focus on their current task and reduces distraction and interruption First, this point assumes that there is *one* current task. That is not how I work. I have one main task, and I keep an eye on some other things, like whose is in some chats, what comes up in twitter flows, etc. One could rephrase your complaint as I don't want to focus on my current task. One could do that, but that would be an idiotic thing to do. So one doesn't. Seriously, the big all-screen menu provided by GnomeShell causes a big distraction in work flow. -- Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:02, Casey Dahlin cdah...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 01:05:08PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: I think it fails on #1: Makes it easy for users to focus on their current task and reduces distraction and interruption First, this point assumes that there is *one* current task. That is not how I work. I have one main task, and I keep an eye on some other things, like whose is in some chats, what comes up in twitter flows, etc. One could rephrase your complaint as I don't want to focus on my current task. So GNOME shell just isn't for you. Cold. Can we just call this conversation closed before it gets any colder? Gnome Shell is not for various people for various reasons. For those people there are other desktop environments. The End. -- Stephen J Smoogen. The core skill of innovators is error recovery, not failure avoidance. Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University. Let us be kind, one to another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle. -- Ian MacLaren -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Em Sex, 2011-06-17 às 19:33 +0200, Kevin Kofler escreveu: Rahul Sundaram wrote: I wonder why you recommend solutions you can't even get used to. In terms of usability, it is not clear to me kickoff is doing a better job at all. It is a rather convoluted way of organizing menu items and I had to switch it off and use the classic menu instead. I have used both and I found the GNOME 3 menu interface more familiar and less radical in fact. Well, I can't get used to GNOME 3 either. (I even tried it once a couple weeks ago just for fun, I found their menu replacement completely bizarre.) Thankfully, I don't have to, I'm a KDE user anyway… Many people are happy with Kickoff. As to me personally, I'm pretty sure I won't get used to ANYTHING other than a good old classic menu, no matter how badly it fails in usability studies. Thankfully, KDE Plasma offers that to me as an option. GNOME 3 also offers it to you as an option. I linked a site with an extension somewhere in this thread. Just curious, did you try any extensions when you played with GNOME 3? Evandro -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 02:12:54PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: One could do that, but that would be an idiotic thing to do. So one doesn't. Its what you said. You explicitly want to divide your attention between multiple tasks. GNOME shell is for people who don't want to do that. --CJD -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:25:53 -0400 Casey Dahlin cdah...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 02:12:54PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: One could do that, but that would be an idiotic thing to do. So one doesn't. Its what you said. You explicitly want to divide your attention between multiple tasks. GNOME shell is for people who don't want to do that. So Gnome Shell is not for a good many of the people who had been using Gnome before that. It is not good to counter a technical point with a personal attack, which is what you did. Different workloads require different ways of working. In my case, there is not just one task that requires 100% of my attention. There is one big, long term task that can tolerate short interruptions, and several smaller ones. This is a perfectly normal situation. --CJD -- Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:16:46 -0600 Stephen John Smoogen smo...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:02, Casey Dahlin cdah...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 01:05:08PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: I think it fails on #1: Makes it easy for users to focus on their current task and reduces distraction and interruption First, this point assumes that there is *one* current task. That is not how I work. I have one main task, and I keep an eye on some other things, like whose is in some chats, what comes up in twitter flows, etc. One could rephrase your complaint as I don't want to focus on my current task. So GNOME shell just isn't for you. Cold. Can we just call this conversation closed before it gets any colder? Gnome Shell is not for various people for various reasons. For those people there are other desktop environments. The End. So I make a point. Someone follows that up in a style that is not preferred by many people. The consequence is that my point should not be adressed ? We all have to be quiet about it? My main point is that the full-screen menu causes a serious interruption of work flow, and that this in contradiction with the first point of GnomeShell's list of goals. -- Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:34, Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:16:46 -0600 Stephen John Smoogen smo...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:02, Casey Dahlin cdah...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 01:05:08PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: I think it fails on #1: Makes it easy for users to focus on their current task and reduces distraction and interruption First, this point assumes that there is *one* current task. That is not how I work. I have one main task, and I keep an eye on some other things, like whose is in some chats, what comes up in twitter flows, etc. One could rephrase your complaint as I don't want to focus on my current task. So GNOME shell just isn't for you. Cold. Can we just call this conversation closed before it gets any colder? Gnome Shell is not for various people for various reasons. For those people there are other desktop environments. The End. So I make a point. Someone follows that up in a style that is not preferred by many people. The consequence is that my point should not be adressed ? We all have to be quiet about it? My main point is that the full-screen menu causes a serious interruption of work flow, and that this in contradiction with the first point of GnomeShell's list of goals. No and if you let your temper calm down for a bit you will see it also. The point is GNOME has moved in a different direction than what you and I wanted. We can argue til our faces are blue that they should not have done so, but it is not going to affect anything because we aren't the people doing the coding. Or we can move on to a desktop that meets our workflows and let GNOME either adapt back to our flows on their own time or find new audiences who meet GNOME's vision. -- Stephen J Smoogen. The core skill of innovators is error recovery, not failure avoidance. Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University. Let us be kind, one to another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle. -- Ian MacLaren -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 02:32:12PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: So Gnome Shell is not for a good many of the people who had been using Gnome before that. YES! I don't know why more people don't realize this: GNOME 2 was a mediocre interface for a lot of people. It COULD NOT be a good interface for the same number of people, and there is NOTHING wrong with them pruning their userbase to a subset which they can adequately serve. It is not good to counter a technical point with a personal attack, which is what you did. No I didn't. Different workloads require different ways of working. In my case, there is not just one task that requires 100% of my attention. There is one big, long term task that can tolerate short interruptions, and several smaller ones. This is a perfectly normal situation. That doesn't mean GNOME shell did not meet the goal you quoted. It means that goal contradicts your own goals. The goal was let the user focus on the current task. You want your focus less singularly distributed. Serving you brings them further from, not closer to, the goal as stated. --CJD -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:41:21 -0600 Stephen John Smoogen smo...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:34, Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:16:46 -0600 Stephen John Smoogen smo...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:02, Casey Dahlin cdah...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 01:05:08PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: I think it fails on #1: Makes it easy for users to focus on their current task and reduces distraction and interruption First, this point assumes that there is *one* current task. That is not how I work. I have one main task, and I keep an eye on some other things, like whose is in some chats, what comes up in twitter flows, etc. One could rephrase your complaint as I don't want to focus on my current task. So GNOME shell just isn't for you. Cold. Can we just call this conversation closed before it gets any colder? Gnome Shell is not for various people for various reasons. For those people there are other desktop environments. The End. So I make a point. Someone follows that up in a style that is not preferred by many people. The consequence is that my point should not be adressed ? We all have to be quiet about it? My main point is that the full-screen menu causes a serious interruption of work flow, and that this in contradiction with the first point of GnomeShell's list of goals. No and if you let your temper calm down for a bit you will see it also. The point is GNOME has moved in a different direction than what you and I wanted. We can argue til our faces are blue that they should not have done so, but it is not going to affect anything because we aren't the people doing the coding. Or we can move on to a desktop that meets our workflows and let GNOME either adapt back to our flows on their own time or find new audiences who meet GNOME's vision. And you can't read the last sentence I wrote? The one about my main point? This is not about my temper. Let's not distract from the issues. -- Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 09:44 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 00:30 +0900, 夜神 岩男 wrote: On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 10:04 -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:33:18 +0900 夜神 岩男 supergiantpot...@yahoo.co.jp wrote: Considering the frequent calls of Gnome 3 has failed at its task or the GUI has failed if the user must makes me wonder: Where is the task definition or specification against which the implementation has failed? Doesn't live up to my expectation is very different from Doesn't comply with spec and both are different from Is a bad design. How about a spec then of what Gnome3 was trying to achiece, and how about those who like it telling us how Gnome3 achieved those things? Links to large amounts of information on this were posted in a different branch of this thread: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152881.html And this is precisely my point. At the moment criticism and defense both seem a bit aimless because we aren't seeing any references to the interface research someone said happened, interface specifications or even a concept discussion/summary about what gnome-shell was supposed to achieve. It was a serious undertaking, so I'm certain they had goals which were at least clear to someone at some point. https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/ and all the links listed at the end of that page. Thanks Adam. Likewise, see the copious information linked to in the email linked to above. To save people having to scroll up, I'll post the link again here: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152881.html Unfortunately this email thread appears to have descended into the flame war as historical inevitability dysfunction described here: http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_user.html (Sigh) Hope this is helpful Dave -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:47:38 -0400 Casey Dahlin cdah...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 02:32:12PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: So Gnome Shell is not for a good many of the people who had been using Gnome before that. YES! I don't know why more people don't realize this: GNOME 2 was a mediocre interface for a lot of people. It COULD NOT be a good interface for the same number of people, and there is NOTHING wrong with them pruning their userbase to a subset which they can adequately serve. It is not good to counter a technical point with a personal attack, which is what you did. No I didn't. Sure looked like you did. Perhaps it not done with malice, let's go with that version. Different workloads require different ways of working. In my case, there is not just one task that requires 100% of my attention. There is one big, long term task that can tolerate short interruptions, and several smaller ones. This is a perfectly normal situation. That doesn't mean GNOME shell did not meet the goal you quoted. It means that goal contradicts your own goals. The goal was let the user focus on the current task. You want your focus less singularly distributed. Serving you brings them further from, not closer to, the goal as stated. That is actually not what I quoted. It is the part of the quote that your comment addressed. Here is my quote again: Makes it easy for users to focus on their current task and reduces distraction and interruption Gnome3 has a problem with the last one. Selecting a new (or an additional) application causes a major disruption. The switch to a different screen takes time, causes the user to re-focus their eyes and their attention. That's a serious context switch, given that the user isn't necessarily trying to do anything dramatic. Perhaps the Gnome3 way of thinking is that calling up an additional application constitutes starting a new task in the work flow, so that the big interruption happens anyway. I don't think that is a good assumption for the design of a DE. --CJD -- Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Evandro Giovanini wrote: Just curious, did you try any extensions when you played with GNOME 3? No. I gave it 2 minutes at most, so no time to try any extensions. ;-) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Em Sex, 2011-06-17 às 15:21 -0400, Bernd Stramm escreveu: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:47:38 -0400 Casey Dahlin cdah...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 02:32:12PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: So Gnome Shell is not for a good many of the people who had been using Gnome before that. YES! I don't know why more people don't realize this: GNOME 2 was a mediocre interface for a lot of people. It COULD NOT be a good interface for the same number of people, and there is NOTHING wrong with them pruning their userbase to a subset which they can adequately serve. It is not good to counter a technical point with a personal attack, which is what you did. No I didn't. Sure looked like you did. Perhaps it not done with malice, let's go with that version. I think you must be confused. The only personal attack post in this thread: One could do that, but that would be an idiotic thing to do. So one doesn't. was posted by yourself. Evandro -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Perhaps the Gnome3 way of thinking is that calling up an additional application constitutes starting a new task in the work flow, so that the big interruption happens anyway. I don't think that is a good assumption for the design of a DE. This is the sort of criticism that grants a clear place from which to start rethinking the problem. -Iwao PS: And to everyone who thinks list discussions must necessarily descend into flaming madness after a certain critical mass of messaging has been reached: Would you really have things any other way? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:46:46 -0300 Evandro Giovanini efgiovan...@gmail.com wrote: Em Sex, 2011-06-17 às 15:21 -0400, Bernd Stramm escreveu: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:47:38 -0400 Casey Dahlin cdah...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 02:32:12PM -0400, Bernd Stramm wrote: So Gnome Shell is not for a good many of the people who had been using Gnome before that. YES! I don't know why more people don't realize this: GNOME 2 was a mediocre interface for a lot of people. It COULD NOT be a good interface for the same number of people, and there is NOTHING wrong with them pruning their userbase to a subset which they can adequately serve. It is not good to counter a technical point with a personal attack, which is what you did. No I didn't. Sure looked like you did. Perhaps it not done with malice, let's go with that version. I think you must be confused. The only personal attack post in this thread: One could do that, but that would be an idiotic thing to do. So one doesn't. was posted by yourself. My objection was just to this line: One could rephrase your complaint as I don't want to focus on my current task. which in my view questions my work ethic. I find that to be derogatory, and I actually do think it is a stupid statement. Perhaps idiotic is a bit harsh. -- Bernd Stramm bernd.str...@gmail.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 07:31:43AM -0300, Evandro Giovanini wrote: Em Sex, 2011-06-17 às 11:55 +0200, Ralf Corsepius escreveu: Well, it's obvious to me Gnome 3 is trying to immitate W7, OS X and iOS, but ... may-be you may want to think about why users are not using these and are using Linux instead? One of the reasons used to be the Gnome2 DE being different from these rsp. these other OSes not meeting this user's groups demands. In other words: IMO, due the way Gnome3 is taking, Gnome 3 has thrown away one of the key-advantages it had offered (and has become a W7 etc. immitation cult) and thus has become non-interesting to at least some Linux-users (e.g. me). That said, IMO, Gnome 3 should be added a classic GUI-design, with toplevel menus/cascaded, file-browser etc. To me personally, Gnome 3 is the primary cause for currently evalutating other distros and other DEs, and the primary (the secondary is systemd) cause for not upgrading to Fedora 15. I'm not really sure I get what you're asking for here. GNOME 3 does have the classic (Win95-like) design installed by default and all you have to do is enable fallback mode in order to use it. I feel that this statement is disingenuous; everything I have read about fallback mode has made it extremely clear that it's intended as a temporary measure until graphics drivers are up to snuff. It may be available now, but it sounds to me like the plan is for it to go away. In addition to that the GNOME Shell is highly customizable and you can have a traditional application menu right on the top menu bar if you'd like. You can check out the extensions available in Fedora, the ones here [1] and several others you can search on Google. The GNOME developers are also working on a website to make installing and managing extensions as easy as it is with Firefox. Evandro [1]. http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/extensions/index.html Except that this feature was originally only intended for rapid prototyping--changes to GNOME3 can and probably will break many extensions (lack of versioning, etc). I've heard nothing yet that says this will change, and at least one voice that implies that it either definitely won't change or should go away (extensions dilute the GNOME3 brand). Anyway, what you're really saying is that users are free to develop their own patches to GNOME3 (albeit in Javascript instead of C). That's tantamount to saying if you don't like it, you can always fork the code! It also ignores that not all users are developers or that not all those who are want to rewrite/modify GNOME3. -- Scott Schmit -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
Em Sex, 2011-06-17 às 22:47 -0400, Scott Schmit escreveu: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 07:31:43AM -0300, Evandro Giovanini wrote: Em Sex, 2011-06-17 às 11:55 +0200, Ralf Corsepius escreveu: Well, it's obvious to me Gnome 3 is trying to immitate W7, OS X and iOS, but ... may-be you may want to think about why users are not using these and are using Linux instead? One of the reasons used to be the Gnome2 DE being different from these rsp. these other OSes not meeting this user's groups demands. In other words: IMO, due the way Gnome3 is taking, Gnome 3 has thrown away one of the key-advantages it had offered (and has become a W7 etc. immitation cult) and thus has become non-interesting to at least some Linux-users (e.g. me). That said, IMO, Gnome 3 should be added a classic GUI-design, with toplevel menus/cascaded, file-browser etc. To me personally, Gnome 3 is the primary cause for currently evalutating other distros and other DEs, and the primary (the secondary is systemd) cause for not upgrading to Fedora 15. I'm not really sure I get what you're asking for here. GNOME 3 does have the classic (Win95-like) design installed by default and all you have to do is enable fallback mode in order to use it. I feel that this statement is disingenuous; everything I have read about fallback mode has made it extremely clear that it's intended as a temporary measure until graphics drivers are up to snuff. It may be available now, but it sounds to me like the plan is for it to go away. I'm not sure what is disingenuous about it; gnome-panel 3.0 and metacity 3.0 are here and they're working. In fact, the panel saw a significant amount of work done in the 3.0 cycle: http://www.vuntz.net/journal/post/2011/04/13/gnome-panel-is-dead,-long-live-gnome-panel! I'm actually using fallback mode in one of my systems and would strongly disagree that recommending something I use is being disengenuous in any way. Threatning the developers of Fedora or GNOME because someone read that something might go away in the future is silly. It's here and it works (also, even more work is being done for 3.2 with more applets being ported over to the new architecture). gnome-panel and metacity will work in Fedora until not a single person is interested in maintaining it. In addition to that the GNOME Shell is highly customizable and you can have a traditional application menu right on the top menu bar if you'd like. You can check out the extensions available in Fedora, the ones here [1] and several others you can search on Google. The GNOME developers are also working on a website to make installing and managing extensions as easy as it is with Firefox. Evandro [1]. http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/extensions/index.html Except that this feature was originally only intended for rapid prototyping--changes to GNOME3 can and probably will break many extensions (lack of versioning, etc). I've heard nothing yet that says this will change, and at least one voice that implies that it either definitely won't change or should go away (extensions dilute the GNOME3 brand). Yes, things are still very much in development and can break at any major version. That doesn't change the fact that upstream is working on improving that, with a website for managing extensions and themes. And concerns over diluting the brand were raised and properly addressed by the gnome-shell maintainer and others, and work on the above continues to happen as we speak. I don't expect any changes in Fedora 15 to break any of the extensions you might find out there. Anyway, what you're really saying is that users are free to develop their own patches to GNOME3 (albeit in Javascript instead of C). That's tantamount to saying if you don't like it, you can always fork the code! It also ignores that not all users are developers or that not all those who are want to rewrite/modify GNOME3. No, I'm not. There are several working extensions *today*, I'm simply suggesting that people not 100% satisfied with the default GNOME 3 experience go out there and experiment with them. It's definitely easier to install an extension even today than to migrate to an entirely different distribution with a completely different desktop environment and default set of applications. If people want to do that instead of simply uncompressing a tarball in ~/.local/share/gnome-shell/extensions, they're free to do so. Evandro -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 15:27 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: plymouth_running()? Plymouth? Systemd knows about plymouth? Why? Because it has implications for the correct handoff of tty1, I believe. This was one of the trickier things to get right in systemd. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 21:35, John Reiser jrei...@bitwagon.com wrote: This is because clicking [Button1 down up] does not temporarily pin the clicked sub-menu. ... The current behavior does not match the expectations of users. Have you seen GNOME 3's Network Manager menu? When a large number of WiFi networks are in range, we do precisely what you suggest when we expand the More menu item. We have thought about this stuff, we really have. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 22:15, seth vidal skvi...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, 2011-06-16 at 18:59 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 01:19 +0200, Henrik Wejdmark wrote: My impression is that GNOME3 is trying to compete with Android and FrontRow, but have forgotten all of us who still uses desktops/laptops. We don't have touch screens yet This is a common misapprehension, but it's not true. The reason for the large icon grid is actually that the developers did real world user research (yes, really!) Where were these studies done and were the results made public? I'm not on the design team for Shell but I can tell you want I do know. I blogged about their usability test hardware here: http://jasondclinton.livejournal.com/74620.html The design research examined was posted publicly and openly discussed as early as Summer 2009. The references were posted here: https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/References The original design document based on that body of research was posted in late 2009, here: http://www.gnome.org/~mccann/shell/design/GNOME_Shell-20091114.pdf As you can see, it was all done in the open and started roughly two years ago. Obviously, it has evolved since then, too. There are others who can better fill in the gaps in what I have provided. But I'm not sure any of them would have read past of the first email in this thread, due to its tone. I know that I didn't want to. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 21:23 -0500, Dan Williams wrote: systemd might be happy if you change it later, but other stuff is not. The canonical example is X, where the hostname was used as the xauth key to allow you to actually talk to the X server. When the hostname changed, there was no authorization for the new hostname in your xauth file, so starting new apps would silently fail. Basing *anything* like that on your machine hostname is just stupid. It might work for you, but it doesn't work for lots of other people, so lets fix it for everyone. And we did back in the F10 timeframe with /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/localuser.sh where we just let any local user connect, since that's exactly what xauth's hostname thing was supposed to do anyway. To clarify, we allow local connections where the UID of the connecting process matches the one specified in the xhost call (which is run after you've established a session, so you know the UID of the user whose session is trying to connect). Dan's statement could be read that we allow connections from any local user at all, which is definitely not true. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 08:53 -0400, Daniel J Walsh wrote: The memory problem is just the share number of file context that we are loading, each line of the file_context file is a regex. Currently the file_context file on my Rawhide machine is 4209 lines. If we can determine the only file context that systemd will need, based on directories we can eliminate some of the regexes. For example if we just loaded paths that begin with /var, /tmp, /dev, we would drop the regexs down to 1500. selabel_close() will free all of the file contexts mapping. So if you can bracket the usage of the mapping with a selabel_open();...;selabel_close();, then you'll only be consuming the memory when using the file contexts mapping. You don't want to do that around every file creation / relabel, of course. -- Stephen Smalley National Security Agency -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 21:23 -0500, Dan Williams wrote: The next example is apps that try to find out your IP address by looking up your hostname. That's completely broken too. Do you have multiple interfaces? Multiple IP addresses? Are you behind NAT? Yeah, all that will torpedo hostname-IP lookups. Hostnames are *informational* and are never a good way to identify anything concrete on a local machine. That didn't used to be the case, but now it is. Things change in 40 years. The hostname is still used a lot in many kerberos aware programs to try to match the keys in keytabs, we are slowly trying to get over that by matching any key that can actually decrypt the ticket you are receiving, but still many programs initialize GSSAPI passing in the hostname. Until all software is fixed (NFS server is still one of them although we are in the process of fixing it) changing the hostname arbitrarily is still problematic. Simo. -- Simo Sorce * Red Hat, Inc * New York -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 10:03 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Mon, 13.06.11 18:18, Denys Vlasenko (dvlas...@redhat.com) wrote: On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:17 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: Hi Lennart, systemd is eating a lot more memory than any other init process I ever played with. Granted, systemd does a bit more that typical init, but I think using *eleven plus megabytes* of malloced space is a bit much. Sloppy attitude like this is the reason just about any daemon (more and more of which pop up like mushrooms in every new release, I must add) eats at least a few megabytes of RAM. It's quite pathetic, really. You can easily tell which software was developed earlier just by looking at its memory usage. Example from my machine: Good old ssh-agent: 404 kbytes. Shiny new dconf-service: 2452 kbytes. Shinier newer polkitd: 2836 kbytes. e-addressbook-factory: 5488 kbytes. Of course. What did you think. *Addressbook*! (Empty one in my case). No way empty addressbook can fit into 0.5 meg, it needs 5! :( :( :( ~11MB equals ~8 cents of RAM ... so meh. Are you volunteering to buy more RAM for every Fedora user? ;) As mentioned this is primarily the SELinux policy which we load into RAM. I wished libselinux would optimize resource usage transparently a bit better, but even without that we should be able to optimize this a bit in the way systemd loads the policy. SELinux makes boot slower and uses more resources, there is no news in that. There's also no news in the fact that we can definitely optimize its impact wherever we are aware of it. Just to clarify: what is unique here is a long-running daemon that is loading the entire file_contexts configuration into memory and keeping it there for its entire lifetime. Previously, the closest analogy was udev, which was quickly optimized to only load entries under /dev. Old init systems didn't load the file contexts configuration at all; they didn't need it for anything. systemd needs it because it handles creation and labeling of files and sockets that used to be either handled by the daemons themselves (in which case policy could transparently label them based on their creator) or by rc scripts that would fork+exec short-lived restorecon processes to fix up labels. Ways to improve the situation for systemd would include: - Only load a subset of file_contexts entries, similar to udev. - Only load the file contexts entries temporarily, using selabel_open + selabel_close to bracket entire blocks where files are created or relabeled. -- Stephen Smalley National Security Agency -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Stephen Smalley s...@tycho.nsa.gov wrote: Ways to improve the situation for systemd would include: - Only load a subset of file_contexts entries, similar to udev. - Only load the file contexts entries temporarily, using selabel_open + selabel_close to bracket entire blocks where files are created or relabeled. - At policy build time, precompute a DFA for all of the regexps, and store it in a file. This file could be mmap()ed into any user of the policy, requiring no malloc(), and allowing the kernel to free the memory when it is no longer used; this should also make loading of the file_contexts configuration faster. Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 06/15/2011 11:03 AM, Miloslav Trma? wrote: On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Stephen Smalley s...@tycho.nsa.gov wrote: Ways to improve the situation for systemd would include: - Only load a subset of file_contexts entries, similar to udev. - Only load the file contexts entries temporarily, using selabel_open + selabel_close to bracket entire blocks where files are created or relabeled. - At policy build time, precompute a DFA for all of the regexps, and store it in a file. This file could be mmap()ed into any user of the policy, requiring no malloc(), and allowing the kernel to free the memory when it is no longer used; this should also make loading of the file_contexts configuration faster. Mirek I was wondering if this was possible. Any example of how to do it? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk34y+MACgkQrlYvE4MpobNqQgCgyXPAzaA15Cjsaq7BmZoy+5s5 kRYAn3hf6N4QbNFaPyszp4L6i7vHhlSR =/ZtQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 11:12:35AM -0400, Daniel J Walsh wrote: On 06/15/2011 11:03 AM, Miloslav Trma? wrote: On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Stephen Smalley s...@tycho.nsa.gov wrote: Ways to improve the situation for systemd would include: - Only load a subset of file_contexts entries, similar to udev. - Only load the file contexts entries temporarily, using selabel_open + selabel_close to bracket entire blocks where files are created or relabeled. - At policy build time, precompute a DFA for all of the regexps, and store it in a file. This file could be mmap()ed into any user of the policy, requiring no malloc(), and allowing the kernel to free the memory when it is no longer used; this should also make loading of the file_contexts configuration faster. Mirek I was wondering if this was possible. Any example of how to do it? At least with glibc regex, that would be terribly unportable and wouldn't buy much, as regcomp isn't very expensive, the DFA nodes are created on the fly during regexec as needed. Jakub -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Wed, 2011-06-15 at 09:40 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 21:23 -0500, Dan Williams wrote: systemd might be happy if you change it later, but other stuff is not. The canonical example is X, where the hostname was used as the xauth key to allow you to actually talk to the X server. When the hostname changed, there was no authorization for the new hostname in your xauth file, so starting new apps would silently fail. Basing *anything* like that on your machine hostname is just stupid. It might work for you, but it doesn't work for lots of other people, so lets fix it for everyone. And we did back in the F10 timeframe with /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/localuser.sh where we just let any local user connect, since that's exactly what xauth's hostname thing was supposed to do anyway. To clarify, we allow local connections where the UID of the connecting process matches the one specified in the xhost call (which is run after you've established a session, so you know the UID of the user whose session is trying to connect). Dan's statement could be read that we allow connections from any local user at all, which is definitely not true. Yeah, I was loose with the details. Thanks for clearing that up. Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME3 and au revoir WAS: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Tuesday, June 14, 2011 06:51:18 AM Genes MailLists wrote: On 06/13/2011 08:14 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Henrik Wejdmark wrote: I have been with this distro since RH4 and have had a great time doing so. Almost every upgrade has been really smooth with only a few minor setbacks like an odd broken dependency that was easily fixed, but F15 is the end for me. I think Karl summed it up pretty well. We can't always agree with every decision, but as our license fees are less than substantial :) we have to live with (semi-)democratic decisions. I have chosen 3), not because of systemd (which I like), but GNOME3 There is no need to run away from Fedora because of GNOME 3. We also have KDE Plasma, Xfce, LXDE and some other choices available for you. And you'll probably have to get familiar with one of those options sooner or later anyway, GNOME 2 is a dead end. Kevin Kofler FYI - I switched to KDE - the current version is pretty nice - small learning curve - and I found I prefer it to Gnome 2 even (def prefer to Gnome 3). I spent a little time but not too long - it does everything I need pretty well (I have multiple apps, terminals etc in different workspaces). Its a nice refreshing update from Gnome 2 and clearly is not trying to compete with Android - which already won the phone UI ... and quite possible the tablet UI as well, tho that looks a little more penetrable to me market wise. They are of course trying to beat Android and iOS ;-) But a different approach is taken - not a one UX suits every needs but for desktops there's desktop user iterface, for netbook there's netbook one (you can try it but be warned - it's Gnome-shell step brother in some terms ;-) and now I'm trying to package Plasma Active for tablets - another different UI. But shares most of code and most of Plasmoids so it looks similar, behaves similar but targets different form factor device. I can't promise Plasma Active now as it depends on KDE Platform 4.7 (slowly pushing it to Rawhide) and for some reasons it crashes for me on top of these builds... But as Kevin pointed out - all three alternative spins are very decent ones. And Gnome Shell is not a bad for a first release especially. Jaroslav Enjoy whatever you decide to do ... -- Jaroslav Řezník jrez...@redhat.com Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno Office: +420 532 294 275 Mobile: +420 602 797 774 Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 21:44 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote: I wouldn't bother much if it would be just one tiny bit of strange code in systemd, but it is FAR from being the only such code. There are lots of similar stuff, and it's not accidental. It is definitely not accidental, but unless you have bugs to file, I don't think complain generically about systemd architecture here is any productive. Where, in your opinion, is the place to discuss systemd architecture? We discussed systemd for quite a while here and it certainly far from perfect, for some things probably not even good yet. But its time to file bugs for real problems, not time for bike shedding on architectural decision that have been taken quite a while ago. I disagree, and I find the attitude we are developers, you are idiot both quite common and quite wrong. I am a developer too, do you want me to treat *you* this way too when you will have trouble with my software? -- vda -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On 06/14/2011 12:50 PM, Denys Vlasenko wrote: On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 21:44 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote: I wouldn't bother much if it would be just one tiny bit of strange code in systemd, but it is FAR from being the only such code. There are lots of similar stuff, and it's not accidental. It is definitely not accidental, but unless you have bugs to file, I don't think complain generically about systemd architecture here is any productive. Where, in your opinion, is the place to discuss systemd architecture? systemd upstream list as I has been pointed out a few times http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel I disagree, and I find the attitude we are developers, you are idiot both quite common and quite wrong. I am a developer too, do you want me to treat *you* this way too when you will have trouble with my software? I don't think you are helping yourself with the antagonistic approach you have taken. If I had trouble with your software, I would start by asking questions on why things the way they are rather than immediately start telling you, the way you have written it is entirely wrong. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, 13.06.11 18:01, Denys Vlasenko (dvlas...@redhat.com) wrote: On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 17:29 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Mon, 13.06.11 15:27, Denys Vlasenko (dvlas...@redhat.com) wrote: kmod_setup(); === ??? We load a couple of kernel modules which systemd needs, and are sometimes compiled as module only and which cannot be autoloaded for a reason or another. This is ipv6, autofs4, unix.ko, and we load them explicitly so that we can use them. You assume that everyone uses IPv6. This is not true. No I am not. You can still blacklist the ipv6 module if you want to via the normal modprobe blacklisting mechanisms. (As mentioned, systemd passes -b to the modprobe command line to ensure that). I explicitly said that in a previous mail. hostname_setup(); === ??? We invoke sethostname() from inside systemd since that is one of the most trivial system calls known to men and doing this with a separate binary is just absurd. This way we also can ensure that the hostname is always initialised which is very useful for early boot logging and other stuff. On systemd you get the guarantee that the hostname is always set up if you run in userspace, You can't possibly know what kind of (possibly dynamic) hostname admin might want to assign to his machine. The static hostname may be as useless as default (none) which is set by kernel. Anyway, logging with default hostname is not a catastrophe. (none) is what the bash makes from empty hostname, which is the default. We just fill in one. Just because systemd sets up a hostname at boot it doesnt mean it couldn't be changed dynamically later on. In fact if you are into dynamic hostnames you should send me a big cake for my birthday as thank you, because I give you stuff like this for F16: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/nssmyhostname http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/hostnamed Why do you set up stuff no one asked you to? Yeah, I explained that already. machine_id_setup(); === ??? Similar to the hostname we ensure that the machine id is always initialized, and has the same lifetime and validity guarantees as the hostname. i.e. that it is simply usable by *every* process started, regardless when. Point me at one program which uses machine id. I never saw one. And anyway, why do you set up stuff no one asked you to? /etc/machine-id is a generalization of the D-Bus machine id, which is used by quite a number of programs directly and indirectly. With systemd we try to make this available globally and independently of D-Bus and add new semantics for stateless systems. plymouth_running()? Plymouth? Systemd knows about plymouth? Why? Because we need to constantly send updates to it. It's a trivial socket operation. It's a trivial thing and spawning a separate process to send those updates each and every single time is a major waste of resources and basically doubles the processes we have to spawn at boot. Plymouth is not a part of Unix. Init process has no business knowing about distro specific stuff like that. Well, since you appear to have invented Unix I think we simply have to disagree here. This is an antithesis to modular, Unix way of doing things. Just because you can turn each trivial operation into a separate binary you shouldn't necessarily do that. Where did I propose turning everything into a separate binary? Well, I say calling sethostname() is a syscall we should simply do in PID 1 and then forget about, but you want this in a separate process (hence separate binary). It is what makes your system slow and heavy-weight. Insisting that we invoke sethostname() in a separate process is just stupid. I am mean, come on, think about it. It is *ONE* system call to the the hostname with sethostname(). Invoking /bin/hostname instead is at least 40 or so (and many of those quite heavy weight). And really, why are we even discussing the frickin hostname like this? Because it's a perfect example of a thing init process has no business doing. Ever. The lightness of the syscall is irrelevant. For example, you also do modprobing of various things, which is far from being just one syscall, so this argument is moot. Well, I guess we simply have to disagree. My interest is a tighly integrated, small, minimal, lightweight system. Yours seem to be a big, archaic, chaotic, redundant, resource intensive system. But that's fine. Do you know what mono means? It's greek and means one. And lithic means stone. And if systemd communicates with Plymouth, then this is not monolothic at all, since systemd and ply are two processes, not one. Init process should not have intrinsic knowledge about splash screens! systemd knows nothing about splash screens. All it does is send status updates to Plymouth. This is basic idea of modularity. This is how Unix always worked.
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, 13.06.11 17:19, Matthew Garrett (mj...@srcf.ucam.org) wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 05:13:39PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote: The point of providing a platform is that developers can make certain assumptions about available functionality. It's no longer reasonable to treat IPv6 as an optional part of the internet, any more than it's reasonable to consider IPv4 as optional. But if you don't want it, simply don't build it. I believe the ipv6 module is going to be built in soon anyway. http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/kernel/2011-June/003105.html I'd assumed that Dennis was talking about non-Fedora environments, since ipv6 hasn't been meaningfully optional in Fedora for ages. Note that ipv6-less systems are explicitly supported by systemd, by means of blacklisting the kmod in the modprobe configuration. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 01:13:01AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Denys Vlasenko wrote: Try rm /usr/sbin/console-kit-daemon. Works like a charm. Randomly removing pieces of installed packages has never been supported. I think the console-kit-daemon service can be disabled, but xinit prefixes xsession with ck-xinit-session which seems to start the daemon on demand. It would be nice if xinit could be configured to not use it. Same for ssh-agent. -- Miroslav Lichvar -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, 13.06.11 18:01, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote: plymouth_running()? Plymouth? Systemd knows about plymouth? Why? Because we need to constantly send updates to it. It's a trivial socket operation. It's a trivial thing and spawning a separate process to send those updates each and every single time is a major waste of resources and basically doubles the processes we have to spawn at boot. The long-term question here is what happens when Plymouth is replaced by something different, first in one specialist distribution, later by one major distribution (perhaps Fedora), and only much later by most distributions?. Will systemd only support the new thing, forcing the slower distributions to backport patches? Will systemd support both systems, and over time become burdened with compatibility code? Something else? As usual, we'll decide case-by-case and as I know myself and the triviality of this code we'd probably support both for a while and then drop the old code a bit later. Historically, each distribution had its own system integration scripts that supported only the tools the distribution cared about, so there never was a single project fighting with the matrix of N distributions x M implementations of major features. With systemd we have a very strict policy: we want to gently push the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system. That means that if you use ply and systemd together you get the best features but you can still use them independently too. It's loosely coupled, but we do want to get people to use this combination and no other by offering them the best support for this combination. (Also, most of them don't emit useful info on --help...) They aren't user binaries. They are in /lib/systemd, not /usr/bin... But they do implement user-visible functionality, and have user-visible /proc/cmdline options. Yes, old initscripts didn't document the behavior either, but the sysadmin (who, for better or worse, pretty much has to be able to read shell code) could find them and could understand and debug the boot process by reading /etc/rc.*. I think that asking the sysadmin to read the C code of systemd to understand the boot process and how it can be configured is rather excessive. I think systemd documentation is much better than the documentation of most other open source projects. If we missed something in the documentation please file a bug and we'll fix it. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, 13.06.11 18:18, Denys Vlasenko (dvlas...@redhat.com) wrote: On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:17 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: Hi Lennart, systemd is eating a lot more memory than any other init process I ever played with. Granted, systemd does a bit more that typical init, but I think using *eleven plus megabytes* of malloced space is a bit much. Sloppy attitude like this is the reason just about any daemon (more and more of which pop up like mushrooms in every new release, I must add) eats at least a few megabytes of RAM. It's quite pathetic, really. You can easily tell which software was developed earlier just by looking at its memory usage. Example from my machine: Good old ssh-agent: 404 kbytes. Shiny new dconf-service: 2452 kbytes. Shinier newer polkitd: 2836 kbytes. e-addressbook-factory: 5488 kbytes. Of course. What did you think. *Addressbook*! (Empty one in my case). No way empty addressbook can fit into 0.5 meg, it needs 5! :( :( :( ~11MB equals ~8 cents of RAM ... so meh. Are you volunteering to buy more RAM for every Fedora user? ;) As mentioned this is primarily the SELinux policy we load. I wished libselinux would optimize memory usage transparently, but even without any changes in libselinux we should be able to optimize this a bit. Yes, using SELinux makes your boot a bit slower and consumes more resources, there is no news in that, and there's also no news in the fact that we can optimize this a bit when we are aware of it. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, 13.06.11 18:18, Denys Vlasenko (dvlas...@redhat.com) wrote: On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:17 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: Hi Lennart, systemd is eating a lot more memory than any other init process I ever played with. Granted, systemd does a bit more that typical init, but I think using *eleven plus megabytes* of malloced space is a bit much. Sloppy attitude like this is the reason just about any daemon (more and more of which pop up like mushrooms in every new release, I must add) eats at least a few megabytes of RAM. It's quite pathetic, really. You can easily tell which software was developed earlier just by looking at its memory usage. Example from my machine: Good old ssh-agent: 404 kbytes. Shiny new dconf-service: 2452 kbytes. Shinier newer polkitd: 2836 kbytes. e-addressbook-factory: 5488 kbytes. Of course. What did you think. *Addressbook*! (Empty one in my case). No way empty addressbook can fit into 0.5 meg, it needs 5! :( :( :( ~11MB equals ~8 cents of RAM ... so meh. Are you volunteering to buy more RAM for every Fedora user? ;) As mentioned this is primarily the SELinux policy which we load into RAM. I wished libselinux would optimize resource usage transparently a bit better, but even without that we should be able to optimize this a bit in the way systemd loads the policy. SELinux makes boot slower and uses more resources, there is no news in that. There's also no news in the fact that we can definitely optimize its impact wherever we are aware of it. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, 13.06.11 19:02, Denys Vlasenko (dvlas...@redhat.com) wrote: On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 12:37 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote: On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 18:01 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: We invoke sethostname() from inside systemd since that is one of the most trivial system calls known to men and doing this with a separate binary is just absurd. This way we also can ensure that the hostname is always initialised which is very useful for early boot logging and other stuff. On systemd you get the guarantee that the hostname is always set up if you run in userspace, You can't possibly know what kind of (possibly dynamic) hostname admin might want to assign to his machine. The static hostname may be as useless as default (none) which is set by kernel. Anyway, logging with default hostname is not a catastrophe. Why do you set up stuff no one asked you to? Changing a machine hostname at random times is just asking for trouble. I just tried it. So far flames don't shoot out of my notebook. Wow, that's convincing proof. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Mon, 13.06.11 22:46, Denys Vlasenko (dvlas...@redhat.com) wrote: In this case you are not better/worse than before, once the network will come up you'll add a script to change the hostname. Setting it earlier in systemd makes no difference. You continue to avoid answering my question: WHY systemd, a service management tool, bothers with setting hostname? It's not its task! As mentioned already: so that all userspace can rely on a valid hostname to be set. Which makes things much nicer for early boot logging as one example. And then there is simplicity, because you need no further configured service deps and you use less resources too, and it's simpler to read the sources, and faster, and more robust. Slide 6: We can now boot a system shell-free IOW: shell is bad, my new shiny toy is good. Oh god. If you had listened you'd have understood that my aim is to deemphasize shell in the boot process, not as an interactive tool or scripting tool. It's about the boot process, and nothing but the boot process. And as a matter of fact in all my talks I explicitly underline that fact. You are FUDding, and it's not helpful. Slide 14: systemd is an Init System systemd is a Platform systemd is a platform? Really? What next? systemd is an Aircraft Carrier? That is not a technical argument, but just FUDing. Of course, systemd is not an aircraft carrier. If all arguments you can come up with are made up arguments then you have no arguments at all. If you want to criticise systemd, then do it on technical grounds, not FUDing with things I never said and you sucked out of your fingers. More to the point: Lennart can call his program whatever he wants, even Nuclear Submarine. The point is: some people might disagree with having service management tool with Napoleonic aspirations. For one, I do! Good for you then. Slide 50: Shell is evil Move to systemd, daemons, kernel, udev, ... Again, shell, a tool which endured for 40+ years, is suddenly evil. I don't think this being the consensus. Yeah, it's not the right tool for the boot process. Doesn't mean it wasn't useful for interactive use or for scripting. Just not the right tool for the boot process. Since you seem to have trouble understanding that, let me repeat it a couple of times: shell is not the best tool to accomplish a quick and reliable bootup. shell is not the best tool to accomplish a quick and reliable bootup. shell is not the best tool to accomplish a quick and reliable bootup. shell is not the best tool to accomplish a quick and reliable bootup. shell is not the best tool to accomplish a quick and reliable bootup. Slide 79: Substantial coverage of basic OS boot-up tasks, including fsck, mount, quota, hwclock, readahead, tmpfiles, random-seed, console, static module loading, early syslog, plymouth, shutdown, kexec, SELinux, initrd+initrd-less boots, cryptsetup, ... That's what I refer to by taking over the world. Well, I just refer to that as systemd as a platform for building an OS from. Note that neither slides, nor this email thread produced an explanation WHY all this stuff is thrown together into one project. In fact those slides you refer to explain all that. If you don't listen and don't want to read, then I cannot help you. One last try with different words, nonetheless: simplicity, speed, robustness, compactness, functionality. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)
On Tue, 14.06.11 09:20, Denys Vlasenko (dvlas...@redhat.com) wrote: On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 21:44 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote: I wouldn't bother much if it would be just one tiny bit of strange code in systemd, but it is FAR from being the only such code. There are lots of similar stuff, and it's not accidental. It is definitely not accidental, but unless you have bugs to file, I don't think complain generically about systemd architecture here is any productive. Where, in your opinion, is the place to discuss systemd architecture? systemd is being discussed on the systemd mailing list and on the IRC channel. This is much like most projects are discussed on their respective mailing lists and IRC channels, and you should know that. We discussed systemd for quite a while here and it certainly far from perfect, for some things probably not even good yet. But its time to file bugs for real problems, not time for bike shedding on architectural decision that have been taken quite a while ago. I disagree, and I find the attitude we are developers, you are idiot both quite common and quite wrong. Oh come on. I have wide open ears. If people make constructive suggestions we listen, and we change things. We'll not change everything, and not without very good reasons, but claiming we wouldn't listen is just insulting. I am pretty sure you you will find a bunch of people who will testify that we implemented a feature they requested on this ML, on bz, at a conference, on IRC or some other place for them. Or we fixed a bug for them, or we even changed behaviour of systemd in one way or another on their request. Making a good case, being polite and convincing gets you a long way. systemd is developed in the open. You can easily participate in various ways. However, if you come overly late to the party, are insulting and demanding, imply we are idiots OR SHOUT ALL THE TIME, then we might be less willing to consider your requests. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
