Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 11:50:18 UTC, Ivan Kazmenko wrote: Is there an "official" translation already? In TDPL, the (very few) occurrences of "range" are translated as "диапазон" (Cyrillic for "diapason"), how official is that? In Russian, the term "diapason" in computerspeak is used to refer to a range of possible values, as in "the range (diapason) for an ubyte variable is from 0 to 255". Also, it has four syllables, making it long-ish to pronounce. "Range" sounds as odd to people new to D as "диапазон", and has the same issue with the existing interpretation of an interval of values. Thus, "диапазон" is an accurate translation. Anyway, using established terminology outweighs accuracy of translation, as the former is less likely to confuse readers familiar with the subject.
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Wednesday, 12 November 2014 at 20:48:00 UTC, Jack Applegame wrote: "интервал", "область" Thanks to all for the suggestions and reasoning! I don't yet see a word which "clicks" in this case, but we got multiple reasonable suggestions here. Perhaps I'll be fine with one of them. Ivan Kazmenko.
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
"интервал", "область"
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Wednesday, 12 November 2014 at 11:38:52 UTC, thedeemon wrote: On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 11:50:18 UTC, Ivan Kazmenko wrote: Hi! I'm unsure what is the Russian equivalent for the term "range", as in "D range", the generalization of a pair of iterators. I think "последовательность" (sequence) is the most appropriate, because the defining characteristic of an input range (most common one) is ability to provide data sequentially. Also, afaik, some languages like F# and Clojure use this term (often shortened to 'seq') for the same thing that D calls ranges. While sequence makes more sense for how std.range thinks of ranges, I think the history of the term is closer to how we use slices. So another (English) alternative to try might be a "view". It's a fairly common term in SQL databases, so presumably there's a translation for it in Russian.
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:38:50 + thedeemon via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > some languages like F# and Clojure use this term (often shortened > to 'seq') "послед". rotfl. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 11:50:18 UTC, Ivan Kazmenko wrote: Hi! I'm unsure what is the Russian equivalent for the term "range", as in "D range", the generalization of a pair of iterators. I think "последовательность" (sequence) is the most appropriate, because the defining characteristic of an input range (most common one) is ability to provide data sequentially. Also, afaik, some languages like F# and Clojure use this term (often shortened to 'seq') for the same thing that D calls ranges.
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 18:39:09 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote: The separate concepts "collection" and "range" better have separate words. Ali This is especially important because "collection" tends to have certain connotation with "container" and confusion between ranges and containers is a common mistake among D newbies.
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On 11/11/2014 08:10 AM, ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: >> What does "набор" mean literally? What is it? > ah, yes, "collection" is a good translation. yet the word "коллекция" > is used literally in some of the programming books. The separate concepts "collection" and "range" better have separate words. Ali
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 16:50:23 + Chris via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:15:36 UTC, Dicebot wrote: > > On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:14:10 UTC, Chris wrote: > >> Does that entail the concept that ranges (in D) are > >> homogeneous (i.e. every member/item is of the same type)? > > > > Yes (if you mean static type) > > > > ElementType!Range is used extensively in Phobos > > Sorry, I meant does the term "набор" (=collection) entail the > concept that all items are of the same type? A collection could > also be a loose collection of elements of different types (int, > string, float, MyClass), whereas in D a range's elements can > (usually) only be of one type. on of the meaning is a collection of similar items, yes. or at least items with the similar purpose/property. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:15:36 UTC, Dicebot wrote: On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:14:10 UTC, Chris wrote: Does that entail the concept that ranges (in D) are homogeneous (i.e. every member/item is of the same type)? Yes (if you mean static type) ElementType!Range is used extensively in Phobos Sorry, I meant does the term "набор" (=collection) entail the concept that all items are of the same type? A collection could also be a loose collection of elements of different types (int, string, float, MyClass), whereas in D a range's elements can (usually) only be of one type.
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 04:14:12PM +, Dicebot via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:
> On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:09:06 UTC, ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn
> wrote:
> >"набор ручек для писания", for example, as "set of pens from which
> >one pen can be taken and used (or another pen added to be used
> >later)". pretty similar to what "range" in D is, methinks.
>
> Only if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_choice is believed to be
> correct :)
That's not a problem:
auto choose(SoS /* pun intended */)(SoS sets)
if (isSetOfSets!SoS)
in { assert(axiomOfChoice); } // <--- this makes it all work
body
{
return sets.choiceFunction();
}
;-)
T
--
Prosperity breeds contempt, and poverty breeds consent. -- Suck.com
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 16:10:12 + Dicebot via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > "последовательность" is solid generic term if you are not afraid > of making mathematicians mad and it is totally unusable in practice. it's just too long and hard to pronounce to be used anywhere except a dry boring book. ;-) i'm not forcing any of terms, but i believe that the term must be short or people will not adopt it. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:14:10 UTC, Chris wrote: Does that entail the concept that ranges (in D) are homogeneous (i.e. every member/item is of the same type)? Yes (if you mean static type) ElementType!Range is used extensively in Phobos
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:09:06 UTC, ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: "набор ручек для писания", for example, as "set of pens from which one pen can be taken and used (or another pen added to be used later)". pretty similar to what "range" in D is, methinks. Only if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_choice is believed to be correct :)
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:00:56 UTC, Ivan Kazmenko wrote: The suggested translations "диапазон" (diapason), "список" (list), "последовательность" (sequence), "набор" (collection) all have something in common with the range concept, but all of them seem to have a defined meaning in either maths or computer science. Maybe it's inevitable, just like "range" is itself an overloaded term in English. Yes, this is pretty much the case. One can't find translation for a range that won't have any additional connotations because "range" is itself heavily overloaded word in English. In my opinion: "диапазон" is ok to describe a finite forward range "последовательность" is solid generic term if you are not afraid of making mathematicians mad I don't like "список" or "набор" because they don't necessarily imply iteration which is the most crucial aspect of range concept. In practice I think it is OK to use any of those terms if you use it consistently within a book / article and explain its meaning somewhere in the very beginning.
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 14:52:56 UTC, Kagamin wrote: I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what programming on ranges is. Isn't it? No, not really. It only applies to specific subset of ranges and specific interpretation of "list" term. There is no straightforward equivalence here.
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:10:33 UTC, ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:38:26 + Chris via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 15:03:40 UTC, ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:52:55 + > Kagamin via Digitalmars-d-learn > > wrote: > >> I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what >> programming on ranges is. Isn't it? > "list" is a good term, but it's already taken. so naming > "range" as > "list" will create unnecessary confusion. alas. yet "набор" > is short > and easy, and it's not widely used, as "set" is translated as > "множество". > > but it's for OP to decide, of course. What does "набор" mean literally? What is it? ah, yes, "collection" is a good translation. yet the word "коллекция" is used literally in some of the programming books. Does that entail the concept that ranges (in D) are homogeneous (i.e. every member/item is of the same type)?
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:38:26 + Chris via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 15:03:40 UTC, ketmar via > Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:52:55 + > > Kagamin via Digitalmars-d-learn > > > > wrote: > > > >> I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what > >> programming on ranges is. Isn't it? > > "list" is a good term, but it's already taken. so naming > > "range" as > > "list" will create unnecessary confusion. alas. yet "набор" is > > short > > and easy, and it's not widely used, as "set" is translated as > > "множество". > > > > but it's for OP to decide, of course. > > What does "набор" mean literally? What is it? ah, yes, "collection" is a good translation. yet the word "коллекция" is used literally in some of the programming books. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:38:26 + Chris via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > What does "набор" mean literally? What is it? something like "(unordered) set of something similar but not same, which can (eventually) be counted and things can be extracted/added". like this. "набор ручек для писания", for example, as "set of pens from which one pen can be taken and used (or another pen added to be used later)". pretty similar to what "range" in D is, methinks. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what programming on ranges is. Isn't it? "list" is a good term, but it's already taken. so naming "range" as "list" will create unnecessary confusion. alas. yet "набор" is short and easy, and it's not widely used, as "set" is translated as "множество". but it's for OP to decide, of course. What does "набор" mean literally? What is it? As I see it, "набор" can informally be translated as "collection", most frequently unordered and allowing duplicates. I often see and use it as a human-readable translation of the term "multiset" in texts which are not too formal (the exact translation "мультимножество" is way too long and scientific). The suggested translations "диапазон" (diapason), "список" (list), "последовательность" (sequence), "набор" (collection) all have something in common with the range concept, but all of them seem to have a defined meaning in either maths or computer science. Maybe it's inevitable, just like "range" is itself an overloaded term in English. Ivan Kazmenko.
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 15:03:40 UTC, ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:52:55 + Kagamin via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what programming on ranges is. Isn't it? "list" is a good term, but it's already taken. so naming "range" as "list" will create unnecessary confusion. alas. yet "набор" is short and easy, and it's not widely used, as "set" is translated as "множество". but it's for OP to decide, of course. What does "набор" mean literally? What is it?
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:52:55 + Kagamin via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what > programming on ranges is. Isn't it? "list" is a good term, but it's already taken. so naming "range" as "list" will create unnecessary confusion. alas. yet "набор" is short and easy, and it's not widely used, as "set" is translated as "множество". but it's for OP to decide, of course. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what programming on ranges is. Isn't it?
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:08:36 + Kagamin via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > Another synonym is "list". hm... i afraid that it's not suitable. "list" has a well-defined meaning in programming literature. ranges are definitely not lists (but list can be a range). ah! "набор"! it's short, it not collides with well-defined terms, it describes what range is. it even consists of five letters! ;-) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
Another synonym is "list".
Re: Russian translation of the "range" term?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 11:50:16 + Ivan Kazmenko via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > Is there an "official" translation already? In TDPL, the (very > few) occurrences of "range" are translated as "диапазон" methinks that "последовательность"[0] is better, albeit longer. but nobody will use that except 3.5 freaks, it's way too long. but "диапазон" is completely wrong anyway. [0] "sequence", but without connotation of any ordering. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Russian translation of the "range" term?
Hi! I'm unsure what is the Russian equivalent for the term "range", as in "D range", the generalization of a pair of iterators. With "range" being such an overloaded term in source language and having no exact equivalent in the target language, its Russian translations I have come up with don't sound quite right. Is there an "official" translation already? In TDPL, the (very few) occurrences of "range" are translated as "диапазон" (Cyrillic for "diapason"), how official is that? In Russian, the term "diapason" in computerspeak is used to refer to a range of possible values, as in "the range (diapason) for an ubyte variable is from 0 to 255". Also, it has four syllables, making it long-ish to pronounce. The original article "On Iteration"[0] suggests that the name "iterator" would also fit if it was not so heavily used, but in Russian, we also have that loan word with the same meaning and usage already. I guess synonyms or translations into other languages with some interlingual explanations could also help. Ivan Kazmenko. [0] http://www.informit.com/articles/printerfriendly/1407357
