Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Sat, 2011-01-01 at 10:52 -0800, Carl Symons wrote: On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 3:30 AM, Olivier Hallot olivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org wrote: snip I clicked on the list of events link on http://www.documentfoundation.org/. There are several events listed for North America. Would TDF consider being at LinuxFest Northwest in Bellingham, 4/30 5/1? There will be an official call for papers in early January, but people can register at www.linuxfestnorthwest.org. LFNW is a true open source expo, free admission, completely run by volunteers...one of the longest running Fests in the US. If there are LibOers in the Pacific NW, please contact me off-list if you'd like to help put together a LibreOffice track. We are looking for presentations for people who are new to FOSS. Hi Carl Sorry for a few days delay here - Indeed the event was added to the wiki and there is a potential volunteer for staffing a booth at the fest. As Italo mentioned this has been discussed in the last couple of days over on the US-Marketing list. Looking at what resources can be put together for the booth. If you can get a track together that would be great, or if you can help in the booth or finding others to help in the booth, also wonderful. - I went ahead and sent this to your direct email feel free to contact me direct, but it would be better to coordinate things on the list, primarily. There are other US specific subjects that I would really like to get peoples input on, so it would be really nice to see you join us there. Thanks much, Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Ian, ... And they are not equal. That's my problem with it at the moment. I don't really understand how this democratic-meritocratic principle works. And what you explain below with Microsoft, for me it is not meritocratic or democratic that's an ethical aspect. Democracy means that everyone has the potential to contribute, Democracy simply means representation of the people (community). Even established democracies don't have referendums on every issue. Party political systems mean that there are real limits to what any individual can contribute. I can't go and contribute directly to new legislation other than by saying what I think and hope it will influence someone. That is not really much different from a FOSS project. ... What you say about democracy, political parties eg is the today situation. But eventually think about this: Democratic systems have the power and lot of money for secret cyber-tasks, for a hidden worldwide web of information and spy-systems and so on. They find it important, they give the money to do it and they have the will to do it. That's possible but not a better flow of information between citizens and politicians to create a more real democracy. There is no democratic-task, no worldwide-web of democratic informations. There is no will to involve more people in decisions or for the prefield of decisions. What will I say with this? Can we organize the structure of LO with examples in mind which have not the will for transparancy? Or must there be a thinking like: ESC has the final decision, OK. And for that, what are the best conditions that they have the best informations to make the best decisions for the best (open) Office Suite? Eventually this is one other task for the time after the phase of beginning. Greetings, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Johannes, all, Le Tue, 04 Jan 2011 14:34:42 +0100, Johannes A. Bodwing jo...@arcor.de a écrit : Hi Ian, ... And they are not equal. That's my problem with it at the moment. I don't really understand how this democratic-meritocratic principle works. And what you explain below with Microsoft, for me it is not meritocratic or democratic that's an ethical aspect. Democracy means that everyone has the potential to contribute, Democracy simply means representation of the people (community). Even established democracies don't have referendums on every issue. Party political systems mean that there are real limits to what any individual can contribute. I can't go and contribute directly to new legislation other than by saying what I think and hope it will influence someone. That is not really much different from a FOSS project. ... What you say about democracy, political parties eg is the today situation. But eventually think about this: Democratic systems have the power and lot of money for secret cyber-tasks, for a hidden worldwide web of information and spy-systems and so on. They find it important, they give the money to do it and they have the will to do it. That's possible but not a better flow of information between citizens and politicians to create a more real democracy. There is no democratic-task, no worldwide-web of democratic informations. There is no will to involve more people in decisions or for the prefield of decisions. What will I say with this? Can we organize the structure of LO with examples in mind which have not the will for transparancy? Or must there be a thinking like: ESC has the final decision, OK. And for that, what are the best conditions that they have the best informations to make the best decisions for the best (open) Office Suite? Eventually this is one other task for the time after the phase of beginning. Greetings, Johannes I would like to close down that thread now. We have bylaws that people were involved in and that have been stabilized: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/CommunityBylaws And we have lots of things that need to be done and require volunteers. Let me give you some pointers: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Produce http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing Among other things.. Happy hacking! -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. LibreOffice needs to rise above this pettiness and support ALL major, and many, if not most minor file formats! Yes, I disagree with OOXML but realize that it is a file format that IS being used throughout the world. Refusing to write or read the format brings us down to the level of Mickey$oft, or even worse! I support and encourage the Open Document Format, but if the Open Source world is going to succeed, we need to demonstrate that WE ARE OPEN, and allow our users to read and write to ANY format, even if we disagree with the stupid petty mentality behind such formats such as OOXML. If there is an obvious need for a feature, then by all means, it should be allowed into LibreOffice! I only use OpenOffice.org, and will use LibreOffice when added to the Debian repository! Rick Stanley -- RSI (Rick Stanley, Inc.) (917) 822-7771 www.rsiny.com Computer Systems Consulting Linux Open Source Specialists -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 1/3/11 7:38 AM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote: Where can I read it? Is it in the next decade manifesto? http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/announce/msg00016.html And they are not equal. That's my problem with it at the moment. I don't really understand how this democratic-meritocratic principle works. And what you explain below with Microsoft, for me it is not meritocratic or democratic that's an ethical aspect. Democracy means that everyone has the potential to contribute, meritocracy means that contribution are judged by the community for their value, continuity, quality, etcetera. There are some principles though, and one of them is that contributions have to be constructive (FOR) and not destructive (AGAINST). Asking to avoid writing support for OOXML in order to bash Microsoft is meaningless. Educating users about ethics related to Microsoft, OOXML and open standards is not a task for export filters. -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
El 30/12/10 11:27, Larry Gusaas escribió: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. Thank's to LibreOffice. I can help to migrate and continue works with other people. Hurry to the liberty. hurry the free. -- Mi Office genera: Seguridad, Confianza y Ahorro J. Eduardo Moreno TOKONHU de México 044 55 2748 4840 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Italo, On 1/3/11 7:38 AM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote: Where can I read it? Is it in the next decade manifesto? http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/announce/msg00016.html Thanks for the Link. - And I could ask the next questions, but I save it for later. I try to get it clearer for me till the 3.3-Release, and eventually with a summary of the manifesto and other important things, to have lately: a better basis to clear things in the calm after the release eventually a shortform of the TDF-goals for people which come new to the project. To check the frame for me, in what time about could the 3.3-Release start? ... Thank You for your patience, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 3 January 2011 15:14, Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com wrote: On 1/3/11 7:38 AM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote: Where can I read it? Is it in the next decade manifesto? http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/announce/msg00016.html And they are not equal. That's my problem with it at the moment. I don't really understand how this democratic-meritocratic principle works. And what you explain below with Microsoft, for me it is not meritocratic or democratic that's an ethical aspect. Democracy means that everyone has the potential to contribute, Democracy simply means representation of the people (community). Even established democracies don't have referendums on every issue. Party political systems mean that there are real limits to what any individual can contribute. I can't go and contribute directly to new legislation other than by saying what I think and hope it will influence someone. That is not really much different from a FOSS project. meritocracy means that contribution are judged by the community for their value, continuity, quality, etcetera. Which is what voters do at election time with the records and manifestos of politicians in a democracy. Of course meritocracy often become a political argument - even with software. There are some principles though, and one of them is that contributions have to be constructive (FOR) and not destructive (AGAINST). Compare with In the national interest Asking to avoid writing support for OOXML in order to bash Microsoft is meaningless. Not meaningless but perhaps political rather than rational - but hey life is a peculiar mixture of rational and political perspectives. Educating users about ethics related to Microsoft, OOXML and open standards is not a task for export filters. In general I think this polarisation of meritocracy/democracy in FOSS is a myth. FOSS happens because there is freedom of speech which is an important tenant in any democracy. In the end some people make decisions and if they get them badly wrong enough often enough the demos votes with its feet. That is exactly what happened with OOo and LO. So while on this issue I'm in favour of writing OOXML after hearing the arguments, these discussions are important even though someone is going to be disappointed. Let's just accept that rather than muddying the waters with the democracy meritocracy myths. -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQ www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 30/12/10 20:19, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid However much I dislike the OOXML situation and also dislike the situation which exists of it being accepted by whatever means in ISO, it is a fact which exists. A distasteful one. This stage of the game was not won with our desired objectives, was it? My objective is to do what I can to spread FLOSS and its use. There may be battles on the way, some battles will be lost some will be won. The objective is to win the war. I am seeing a *lot* of interest from my friends and contacts in favour of FLOSS. However distasteful, the first or second question my friends always ask about FLOSS when considering to accept my help to convert (to say Ubuntu) is 'compatibility?' I will use and support Libre O as much as I possibly can, however I will resist the use of OOXML whenever I can, in situations of my own choosing, where I will not do damage to the cause of FLOSS. -- alan cocks Ubuntu user -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Dear Larry, First of all I want to apologize for my lack of English skills. I'm not native English speaking so if the words are a little clumpsy, please bear with me :-) I disagree with you of two reasons: 1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what is 'good' and what is 'bad' code? Nobody. Because LibreOffice is free software! We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works fine for us. 2) No matter what we say or do, there are two document standards approved by ISO. I guess (!) that most of us engaged in the Document Foundation can agree that two standards are one two many. Never the less: OOXML is a standard. If we decide not to support it we will see status quo in marked situation: MS having 95+ % of the marked share. MS will claim that they support both standards and we are not in the loop able to claim otherwise. If we support OOXML (I don't say that we should hurry) we will be able to take marked shares from MS and more important: We are in the loop! We can speak up and tell ISO what is wrong with OOXML. we will be able to find all the faults and we will be heard. We can talk to politicians about the core problems because we are implementing it. I my self are doing that right now. I have spoken to politicians and the are listening to me - because we are implementing it. Because we are actually getting working with it. I am living in a country that has chosen two standards. By working with it we can help other regions not to make the same mistake. But if we say we wil not this and we will not that our only achievement will be that nobody will listen to what we are saying. Supporting OOXML is not supporting MS. It is exposing their dirty laundry! We don't need to hurry! Of cause we must economize our resources and supporting OOXML will never become our main focus. We have an office suite to create ;-) Cheers, Leif Den 30-12-2010 18:27, Larry Gusaas skrev: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Leif, Dear Larry, ... I disagree with you of two reasons: 1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what is 'good' and what is 'bad' code? Nobody. Because ! We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works fine for us. I agree too in one point: LibreOffice is free software as a software. But we speak about LO as the substantial product of TDF. And TDF wants to evolve the community of OOo eg. With that LO is part of the community. Why can than one group or one person decide about important things? Greetings, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Johannes, *, Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 19:30:31 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing: Hi Leif, Dear Larry, ... I disagree with you of two reasons: 1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what is 'good' and what is 'bad' code? Nobody. Because ! We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works fine for us. I agree too in one point: LibreOffice is free software as a software. But we speak about LO as the substantial product of TDF. And TDF wants to evolve the community of OOo eg. With that LO is part of the community. Why can than one group or one person decide about important things? this is because LibreOffice and the TDF are build on the contribution of the members. The people, which are doing the work, decide about the things they are doing for LO and the TDF. But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to which community (OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily work. We need not another mega- thread on this list. Regards, Andreas -- ## Developer LibreOffice ## Freie Office-Suite für Linux, Mac, Windows ## http://LibreOffice.org ## Support the Document Foundation (http://documentfoundation.org) ## Meine Seite: http://www.amantke.de -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Andreas, Hi Johannes, *, Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 19:30:31 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing: Hi Leif, Dear Larry, ... I disagree with you of two reasons: 1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what is 'good' and what is 'bad' code? Nobody. Because ! We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works fine for us. I agree too in one point: LibreOffice is free software as a software. But we speak about LO as the substantial product of TDF. And TDF wants to evolve the community of OOo eg. With that LO is part of the community. Why can than one group or one person decide about important things? this is because LibreOffice and the TDF are build on the contribution of the members. The people, which are doing the work, decide about the things they are doing for LO and the TDF. But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to which community (OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily work. We need not another mega- thread on this list. That's right. But TDF fell from heaven in September 2010, and till now I am looking for answers to important questions about both, OOo and LO. And some is confusing. In this Mail for LO: If I understand you correctly, decisions about programming are the task of the developers. Is this The mission of the ESC is to provide technical guidance and to settle technical disputes. under the bylaws of TDF? What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find that information? The other point is: TDF ... is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, ... (TDF-Homesite) and on the Next Decade Manifesto: ... the home for our activities should be an independent self-governing democratic foundation ... How have I to understand that? Or where can I find answers about it? Thanks, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Johannes, *, Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 21:36:20 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing: Hi Andreas, Hi Johannes, *, (...) But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to which community (OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily work. We need not another mega- thread on this list. That's right. But TDF fell from heaven in September 2010, and till now I am looking for answers to important questions about both, OOo and LO. And some is confusing. not from heaven, but from the community or her long term contributors. In this Mail for LO: If I understand you correctly, decisions about programming are the task of the developers. Is this The mission of the ESC is to provide technical guidance and to settle technical disputes. under the bylaws of TDF? What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find that information? Read the other mails from the members of the TDF and LibreOffice. I have not the time to repeat anything. I'll contribute in my sparetime, not only write mails and steal the time of other members of the community. So if you want to be a member of LibreOffice also go ahead and decide, what you can do for the community and contribute. Regards, Andreas -- ## Developer LibreOffice ## Freie Office-Suite für Linux, Mac, Windows ## http://LibreOffice.org ## Support the Document Foundation (http://documentfoundation.org) ## Meine Seite: http://www.amantke.de -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Andreas, ... Hi Johannes, *, Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 21:36:20 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing: Hi Andreas, Hi Johannes, *, (...) But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to which community (OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily work. We need not another mega- thread on this list. That's right. But TDF fell from heaven in September 2010, and till now I am looking for answers to important questions about both, OOo and LO. And some is confusing. not from heaven, but from the community or her long term contributors. For me and many others from heaven. In this Mail for LO: If I understand you correctly, decisions about programming are the task of the developers. Is this The mission of the ESC is to provide technical guidance and to settle technical disputes. under the bylaws of TDF? What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find that information? Read the other mails from the members of the TDF and LibreOffice. I have not the time to repeat anything. But I have? How many hundreds of mails are this to find the right? Sorry, that covers one of the problems. I've wrote it before: Some important information is not available in short time. The same as OOo ;-) I'll contribute in my sparetime, not only write mails and steal the time of other members of the community. Thanks for the clearness ;-) That means, you don't know it. Why don't you say that clearly, instead of such sideblows? So if you want to be a member of LibreOffice also go ahead and decide, what you can do for the community and contribute. I do what I can do in a situation with open important questions. Look at my mails, I have not the time to repeat anything. Everything clear? Greetings, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
I've been reading through this discussion (as much as possible), and there is one thing that that I don't understand. Why do we have so many people complaining about LO writing in the .docx format but nobody (that I've seen) is complaining about the .doc format? Both are Microsoft formats, but the docx format is a lot closer to being an open standard. (Notice, I said it was closer, not that it was, an open standard). At least the docx format has some released specifications (as inaccurate as they may be), the last I checked, .doc doesn't even have that. Personally, I'd like to see LibreOffice read and write as many file formats as possible, but that is just me. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 1/2/11 9:36 PM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote: What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find that information? Developers will base their decisions on several information, and also on positive contribution by the community. Emails where people say that LibreOffice should not support a document format because it is backed by Microsoft or because is a Go-OO heritage are not a positive contribution. In addition, there is a group of long time community members who have a clear idea about the future of the office suite. We have also issued a press release where we have disclosed the development path that makes very clear LibreOffice future directions. It should be very clear that software related requests coming from the community will be taken into consideration if they are positive and not against Microsoft or Oracle or any other corporation or entity. I think that this is quite a clear statement. The other point is: TDF ... is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, ... (TDF-Homesite) and on the Next Decade Manifesto: ... the home for our activities should be an independent self-governing democratic foundation ... How have I to understand that? Or where can I find answers about it? Democratic and meritocratic are not opposite. TDF is a democracy based on merit, and merit is based on positive contributions. Shouting inside a mailing list is not a positive contribution, by any mean. TDF was not born to fight Microsoft, but to serve the user. I think this is quite easy to understand, and I am really amazed by the number of people that still believe that promoting free software means bashing Microsoft. This shows a total lack of maturity. -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
As many already said, OOXML r/w support is already there, if you don't like it, then develop a way to disable it. Someone already developed it, and that's why it is there already. Why can anyone think that they can remove any functionality that is already there? It is a pain in th a... to do the OOXML r/w support, but someone already did it!!! Why in God's name would is so bad on having it if it's already there? I believe that any extra functionality that some one develops and actually works, should be added to OSS, any OSS, and nothing should be banned just because some religious extremists don't want to have it. What you are proposing is like banning support for Fat32 or NTFS from Linux!! Do you understand how crazy that would be -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 1/2/11 11:07 PM, Jason Corfman wrote: Why do we have so many people complaining about LO writing in the .docx format but nobody (that I've seen) is complaining about the .doc format? Both are Microsoft formats, but the docx format is a lot closer to being an open standard. (Notice, I said it was closer, not that it was, an open standard). At least the docx format has some released specifications (as inaccurate as they may be), the last I checked, .doc doesn't even have that. Because common sense is definitely not common. Personally, I'd like to see LibreOffice read and write as many file formats as possible, but that is just me. No, it's me as well and many others who use common sense. -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jason Corfman jkco...@gmail.com wrote: I've been reading through this discussion (as much as possible), and there is one thing that that I don't understand. Why do we have so many people complaining about LO writing in the .docx format but nobody (that I've seen) is complaining about the .doc format? Both are Microsoft formats, but the docx format is a lot closer to being an open standard. (Notice, I said it was closer, not that it was, an open standard). At least the docx format has some released specifications (as inaccurate as they may be), the last I checked, .doc doesn't even have that. The docx format is a scam in my view (read some of the links in the original message of this thread for background on that opinion). Until MS complies fully with the open standards, the only value of docx is to subvert truly open software. This is a pattern in MS' behavior over time. I don't like that in the US, computer science in high school consists of Word and Excel training. But that's the way it is. That said, I trust in the open community environment of LibreOffice. The comments and clarifications from Italo Vignoli, Olivier Hallot, Charles-H. Schulz (apologies if I missed anyone) from The Document Foundation demonstrate a willingness to listen and guide LibO development in a reasoned fashion. Even though I don't appreciate the steps Microsoft took to get their file format approved by the standards body, the fact is that it is approved (I realize that there are nuances to that.) The Document Foundation faces a difficult task bringing an open office suite into being. I was overjoyed to hear about LibreOffice. It is a bold, risky adventure. It faces major challenges. Consequently, I defer to TDF's sensibility about this situation; I'll support whatever they decide on this issue. The final chapters on docx/OOXML have not been written. Italo's statement of a philosophy of FOR is exactly right IMHO. The fact that this email thread exists, that it allows for all manner and strength of opinion, is testimony to the strength of open source software. It also illustrates a guiding principle of TDF. To The Document Foundation, thank you. Thank you for starting this project, for listening, for creating LibO in a meritocracy. Carl Symons -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 1/3/11 12:48 AM, Carl Symons wrote: Italo's statement of a philosophy of FOR is exactly right IMHO. Thanks, this philosophy is the guiding principle of our marketing strategy. In Italy (I apologize for mentioning often what we have done here) we have got to the point of issuing a press release to congratulate Microsoft for the support of ODF. It has been one of the most successful press releases, and it has been instrumental in making the project more credible in the market. Today, Italian media consider Associazione PLIO the real Microsoft competitor. If there is a face to face between Microsoft and OOo, we are invited to talk and Sun/Oracle is completely ignored. We have been featured on the largest Italian dailies with dedicated articles. The fact that this email thread exists, that it allows for all manner and strength of opinion, is testimony to the strength of open source software. It also illustrates a guiding principle of TDF. Yes, although I would say that it has started in the wrong way, i.e. against Microsoft. The original idea was that we support Microsoft if we write OOXML, which is not only wrong but exactly the opposite of what happens in the reality. Supporting OOXML makes LibreOffice stronger and TDF more credible, because we are not scared by interoperability (while Microsoft is and will always be scared by interoperability). This is all I can say, and is already way too much for our beloved Microsoft lurkers. -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 31 December 2010 17:04, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote: Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote (31-12-10 13:14) On 31/12/10 09:30, Jonathan Aquilina wrote: FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF format for opening and saving documents now. So does 2007 SP2 as well. However in 2007 the opening of ods documents has deliberately broken formulaedon't know whether they've fixed this in 2010, or whether they even want to fix it... (No idea if someone already answered this somewhere else in this thread, so here I go ;-) ) MS sticks (anyway up until now) with the ISO-certified version of ODF. In the mean time ODF evolves. Formulae support is close to final, and for months already, there is very little chance that there will be changes in the specs. Even more: the formulae definitions in ODF have to a high level been based on MS-implementations of formulae. So MS could have made a choice to to implement close to final ODF versions already. For OOo and others, it is completely logic and natural to offer support for close-to-final ODF specifications already. ODF is the native format plus that the open source suites develop so much faster, that it would be impractical not to implement them. Considering the opportunity cost of developing export filters against other development priorities is certainly a valid consideration. Of course if it is work sponsored by someone who would not spend it on anything else that means there is no effective opportunity cost. Best, Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 3:30 AM, Olivier Hallot olivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org wrote: snip The Go-oo homepage also says Going forward, the Go-oo project will be discontinued in favor of LibreOffice. Does that mean that LibreOffice is driven by Novell too? I wouldn't put in that simple words. Actually, LibreOffice is open to any developer, individual or company that whishes to contribute to our code and endeavour. On the TDF announcement we invited Oracle to join us and suggested them to offer the brand OpenOffice to TDF (later this was politely declined by Oracle). LibreOffice has many contributions of Novell engineers, as well as Oracle engineers too. But is is not an Novell product nor TDF is a Novell shop. The Next Decade Manifesto says a lot on our purpose and TDF is better described in this page: http://www.documentfoundation.org/ Please help us not to make the same mistake as OpenOffice.org did. Kind regards -- Olivier Hallot Thank you, Olivier. I clicked on the list of events link on http://www.documentfoundation.org/. There are several events listed for North America. Would TDF consider being at LinuxFest Northwest in Bellingham, 4/30 5/1? There will be an official call for papers in early January, but people can register at www.linuxfestnorthwest.org. LFNW is a true open source expo, free admission, completely run by volunteers...one of the longest running Fests in the US. If there are LibOers in the Pacific NW, please contact me off-list if you'd like to help put together a LibreOffice track. We are looking for presentations for people who are new to FOSS. Carl -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 01/01/2011 07:52 PM, Carl Symons wrote: I clicked on the list of events link on http://www.documentfoundation.org/. There are several events listed for North America. Would TDF consider being at LinuxFest Northwest in Bellingham, 4/30 5/1? There will be an official call for papers in early January, but people can register at www.linuxfestnorthwest.org. LFNW is a true open source expo, free admission, completely run by volunteers...one of the longest running Fests in the US. I think you should discuss this on the US Marketing list, who is copied on this answer. If there are LibOers in the Pacific NW, please contact me off-list if you'd like to help put together a LibreOffice track. We are looking for presentations for people who are new to FOSS. Please use the US Marketing list instead of private emails. We are trying to grow a US community and a marketing list is far better than any other tool. -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of information. For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to be MS's open document format. I just thought it was the latest update to MSO making everyone update to keep abreast. So much for my knowledge of MSO. As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it. Read is right, write is wrong. Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what. It's a case for the marketing guys, not the developers. //James -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Yes. Take a stand for inclusivity. :-) On Jan 1, 2011 6:02 PM, James Wilde wilde.ja...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of information. For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to be MS's open document format. I just thought it was the latest update to MSO making everyone update to keep abreast. So much for my knowledge of MSO. As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it. Read is right, write is wrong. Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what. It's a case for the marketing guys, not the developers. //James -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 1/1/2011 5:01 PM, James Wilde wrote: On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of information. For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to be MS's open document format. I just thought it was the latest update to MSO making everyone update to keep abreast. So much for my knowledge of MSO. There was a huge battle over that; docx and its siblings are MS's Office Open XML (OOXML) formats, rushed through the ISO standards process with enormous still-existing problems. The standard was split into two parts -- the Transitional piece of the specification purports to document the implementation used since Office 2007, and the worst issues are in that part. As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it. Read is right, write is wrong. Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what. It's a case for the marketing guys, not the developers. //James -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
I disagree. LibreOffice isn't being developed as a political tool. It is supposed to be useful in the modern office. Many of us have clients and co-workers who use proprietary office formats, and we need to be able to communicate with those folks. If I get an RFP in Office 10 format, I have to be able to read it and respond to it. If I have to buy Office 10 to do it, then what reason have I to use LibreOffice (or any free suite) in the first place? Matthew Copple mcop...@kcopensource.org On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Matthew G. Copple mcop...@kcopensource.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF format for opening and saving documents now. On 12/31/10 1:12 AM, BRM wrote: - Original Message From: Barbara Dupreyb...@onr.com snip We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone. Unfortunately, MS now claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing files with the ODF extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon discover that the MS implementation is not really compatible with other ODF implementations (most notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not just that). I think the MS plan here is to say that *they've* got the true standard implementation and everybody else is wrong. Since that (basically proprietary) version of ODF is now distributed as part of MS Office, it's just about everywhere, so they have the numbers on their side. That seems to leave everybody else once again playing catch-up with MS, which can then simply do as it pleases with the standard, being the 600-pound gorilla in the room. Interoperability issues will than be charged against the non-MS implementation, making it safer for organizations to stay with MS. Am I being unduly pessimistic here? True, they do have a plug-in available to support ODF, but (last I checked) it is not part of the default install - you must install it separately, and it only supports Office 2007 and later, while they pushed OOXML support out to Office 2003 and possibly earlier versions too. However, they do not (again at least last I checked) let you save it via the normal means, e.g. Save/Save As dialog, and you cannot make it the default. They also follow only the 1.0 or may be the 1.1 version that made it through ISO refusing to do anything that is not in the ISO version, and then doing it in a rather broken manner. However, they are not the 600-pound gorilla in the ODF market given the dozens of implementations that more or less agree on how most things should be done. For instance, unlike all other implementations (again last I checked) MS wrote the value of the cell to the normal location for an ODS spreadsheet while writing the formula to a MS Office specific namespace - whereas everyone else write the formula to the cell location and not application specific namespaces. Effectively making MS Office ODF files non-interoperable with everyone else. I think they may also drop all other application specific data too; or may be they were kind enough to leave that intact, don't remember on that front. Conversely, I think there is likely enough interoperable software out there that it can be easily pointed out that MS has the broken implementation in such cases. Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 30/12/10 20:23, RGB ES wrote: 2010/12/30 Gordon Burgess-Parkergbpli...@gmail.com: OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid That means nothing. MSOffice will be able to read the previous formats for a while, I think... That's not the point. Many users of MS Office don't know how , or can't be bothered, to change the default document format from OOXML back to previous format, especially as Windows 7 (by default) does NOT show the file extension, so users don't even KNOW they are using OOXML. (I have personal experience of this from Users I support). Therefore the use of OOXML will spread insidiously as the take up of Office 2010 (particularly) and Windows 7 speeds up. And I'm afraid there is nothing that can be done to stop this as MS Office almost completely dominates the Office suite world, particularly in corporate environments. And if you are sent an OOXML document to edit and return then it's bad manners not to send it back in the format it was sent to you, just like it's bad manners to receive a plain text email and reply in HTML -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 30/12/10 21:07, Carl Symons wrote: Any file format would still be accessible to read. If someone sends you a docx file, you will be able to open it. You can send a .doc (no x; no OOXML) file back to to them; they will be able to read it with their MS application. Two comments on that. OOXML documents could contain more formatting options than the old style MS Office documents, which would be lost of you saved it in a prior format, and secondly, if someone sends you a document in a certain format, then it's arrogant of you to return it in a DIFFERENT format, however much you dislike the format the sender used. That's why email clients reply to messages in the same format in which they were received. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Þann fös 31.des 2010 01:28, skrifaði Wolf Halton: I have to use office2007 at work and I watch hundreds of core users (college students) struggle with my formatting requirements for homework assignments. Most of these are using the company-supplied computers, with office 2007, most of the time. Word allows reading and writing odf format. It tends to mess up fancy document formatting, but the most complicated document formatting these users do is adding a page number. The IT department set it up, so I don't know if the Plugin took manual set-up. If we could set up docx to save automatically to doc, that might be cool for us but don't you think that would just annoy core users of ms office? Most core users of any program just want to use it to perform some task. They don't care about these format battles. If we could make a couple of award-winning big-budget movies where format license was the pivotal plot device, we might have hope of including the core user in the controversy. I am not sure that deliberate exclusion coming from the let's get them before they get us vibe in this thread is going to work how we want. Once all European governments and half of Aisia go to open formats, maybe we just stop accepting ms formats at all. This is how ms office got their crushing grip on general business formatting, isn't it. Before Windows, the average university or (US) government core user was using WordPerfect on DOS. Over the next 5-10 years we will probably see a sea-change to *nix, cloud and open formats, but the focus of LO may have to shift to a SaaS delivery model to meet the challenges of that change. If the documents are shared primarily over the network through a browser, it will be very simple for those service providers to specify odf if we make the reasons clear enough, or if we are the providers of those services. Wolf Halton Couple of things here: I've been working on a fairly big Win/MSO -- LTSP-*buntu/OOo conversion in a 1500+ users school environment. So far it's been without major hiccups, you only have to repeat and tell each individual that OOo really CAN open .docx (provided one saves it first from the webmail client to the home directory or any other writable location) and that OOo CAN save the resulting file in .doc for further processing at home. This is primarily a 'computer literacy' problem and maybe setup of mail clients. While you're at it one can also mention the ODF-plugin for their copy of MSO :-) The main problem has been formulas in MSO-2007. Apparently there are two ways of entering formulas; one consists of using MSO Equation Editor which apparently renders/saves aproximately correct MathML. The other (default) way is direct insertion via MSO Equation, wihch is not even readable by MSO-2003 (only as a bitmap). If this could be adressed, many institutions/schools would have better time while changing sides. Apparently some (rare) equations don't transpose correctly to Calc, and some exotic .ppt transforms don't translate correctly to Impress. But first of all are the macros which give problems. Probably there will never be a perfect automatic way for converting those, I see it rather as a business opportunity for VBA/macro gurus. But I think that in a corporate context, a batch program for converting .doc and .docx to ODF would get some support and would/could ease the conversion. After all those years, there's a pile of .docs sitting on most PCs in this world. And having all the files in a same/similar format is an issue for many I've heard from. Just thoughts. Sveinn í Felli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 31/12/10 09:30, Jonathan Aquilina wrote: FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF format for opening and saving documents now. So does 2007 SP2 as well. However in 2007 the opening of ods documents has deliberately broken formulaedon't know whether they've fixed this in 2010, or whether they even want to fix it... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this. If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and request that they send it in another format, explaining why. And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
2010/12/31 Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com: And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format... As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and 300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX formats. Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not support writing to those formats, not even the development version for 3.4. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote: As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and 300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX formats. Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not support writing to those formats, not even the development version for 3.4. Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option of Office 2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's not OOXML -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Ubuntu's (and openSUSE's and sabayon's and...) OOo is go-oo, not oracle's OOo. 2010/12/31 Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com: On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote: As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and 300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX formats. Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not support writing to those formats, not even the development version for 3.4. Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option of Office 2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's not OOXML -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 31/12/10 13:21, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote: As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and 300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX formats. Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not support writing to those formats, not even the development version for 3.4. Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option of Office 2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's not OOXML And it's the ORACLE version as well. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 31/12/10 13:23, RGB ES wrote: Ubuntu's (and openSUSE's and sabayon's and...) OOo is go-oo, not oracle's OOo. So that's why it says ORACLE on the OO splash screen then -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 30 December 2010 20:19, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote: On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid And if LibO does not support export to the latest versions of MS Office many governments and businesses will be less likely to adopt it. Overall that would be bad for odf. Once odf is in majority use yo can start dictating de facto standards. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
It says oracle (based on oracle to be precise) because most of the code is copyrighted by oracle. Please, google a bit, it does not hurt... 2010/12/31 Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com: On 31/12/10 13:23, RGB ES wrote: Ubuntu's (and openSUSE's and sabayon's and...) OOo is go-oo, not oracle's OOo. So that's why it says ORACLE on the OO splash screen then -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi, On 31/12/2010 16:27, RGB ES wrote: It says oracle (based on oracle to be precise) because most of the code is copyrighted by oracle. Please, google a bit, it does not hurt... Both of you are right. In fact, it's the official version plus some go-oo patches. So you get a mix of the two versions (that brings a lot of bugs unfortunately). Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Sorry for stepping in so late in the discussion. I have seen many messages, but they all miss the key issue: interoperability. TDF is FOR interoperability, which is a user (and a market) need. TDF is not AGAINST Microsoft, although many of its founding members - including myself - have been strong opponents of OOXML during the standardization process. We have worked inside committeees in order to improve OOXML, or - if you prefer - to make is a less flawed standard. TDF is FOR ODF, and being FOR ODF in a strong way means that you do not support OOXML (but not to the point of creating problems to users wanting to save in a specific document format). Of course, TDF is also a member of OpenDoc Society (announcement in early January) and is represented at the highest level inside OASIS. Inside these bodies, TDF will fight FOR making ODF a successful document standard over OOXML. I would really like to handle the negative attitude to Oracle and the OOo community. If you share the idea of being AGAINST Microsoft, TDF and users, then we are happy if you choose the OOo community. Happy 2011 to everyone. Ciao, Italo -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
If I may inject what I hope is a little sense into this argument:- A major strength of Open Office is and always was that it could read and often write documents in many proprietary formats. That strength should remain solidly a feature of Libre Office and for exactly the same reasons. When it comes to the Microsoft formats there is a significant issue with writing the formats - specifically, that even Microsoft cannot fully adhere to the standards they set. This is a major fault and it is one which Microsoft has placed into the marketplace. It leaves Libre Office with three choices when it comes to these formats. It can either:- 1. Write in the format as used by Microsoft. 2. Write in the format as specified in the ISO standard. 3. Refuse to write in the new formats at all. The problem with option 1 is that it is a strictly proprietary form which even Microsoft admits does not actually meet the open standard. It is therefore open to attacks using patent and other legislation if adopted by Libre Office. The problem with option 2 is that while it is an open standard it does not actually fully work with Microsoft Office and is therefore a pointless choice until (according to Microsoft) at least 2014. The problem with option 3 is that Libre Office would be left in the situation where its own files would need to be read by the ODF open feature in Microsoft Office, thus making Microsoft appear to be the ones making efforts to read incompatible formats. I would suggest that this is the very reason why Microsoft has taken this action with these formats. We are left, in short, with just two realistic choices. Either we reverse-engineer the OOXML as actually used and let Microsoft scream about it (as they certainly would) or we simply ignore the format for written documents and write them in the old doc format... while telling people clearly on the download website that this is because we are prevented from using the Microsoft open standard. Given the work involved in these choices, I would suggest the only realistic option is the latter one. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Mark, all, Mark Preston wrote (31-12-10 16:11) If I may inject what I hope is a little sense into this argument:- A major strength of Open Office is and always was that it could read and often write documents in many proprietary formats. That strength should remain solidly a feature of Libre Office and for exactly the same reasons. When it comes to the Microsoft formats there is a significant issue with writing the formats - specifically, that even Microsoft cannot fully adhere to the standards they set. This is a major fault and it is one which Microsoft has placed into the marketplace. It leaves Libre Office with three choices when it comes to these formats. It can either:- 1. Write in the format as used by Microsoft. 2. Write in the format as specified in the ISO standard. 3. Refuse to write in the new formats at all. The problem with option 1 is that it is a strictly proprietary form which even Microsoft admits does not actually meet the open standard. It is therefore open to attacks using patent and other legislation if adopted by Libre Office. The problem with option 2 is that while it is an open standard it does not actually fully work with Microsoft Office and is therefore a pointless choice until (according to Microsoft) at least 2014. The problem with option 3 is that Libre Office would be left in the situation where its own files would need to be read by the ODF open feature in Microsoft Office, thus making Microsoft appear to be the ones making efforts to read incompatible formats. I would suggest that this is the very reason why Microsoft has taken this action with these formats. We are left, in short, with just two realistic choices. Either we reverse-engineer the OOXML as actually used and let Microsoft scream about it (as they certainly would) or we simply ignore the format for written documents and write them in the old doc format... while telling people clearly on the download website that this is because we are prevented from using the Microsoft open standard. Given the work involved in these choices, I would suggest the only realistic option is the latter one. Thanks for the clear analyses. And interesting discussion. One thing I think that could be considered as well: The choice seems to boil down to either: a- ignore saving in OOXML, because supporting that would support the non-open, MS dominated file format; or b- support saving in OOXML, because this enables users of LibreOffice to better cooperate with (part of the) people/organizations using MsO. For the people that choose based on certain principles, a. seems the best. For people that have to/want to work in a practical way, b. might be better, provided that the save-as-OOXML reaches a level where it is of practical use. If that is not the case, it is not more then window dressing that will leave users with a bad experience and again people pointing at the other application (LibO in this case) that does not support the file format properly. Another side note: efforts spent to develop save-as-OOXML might have possible side effects for the save-as-DOC, I guess, since OOXML is partly based on the old binary format. Indeed, not a clear a or b, but just some components for the frame to help making the choice. How does that sound? Best, Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote (31-12-10 13:14) On 31/12/10 09:30, Jonathan Aquilina wrote: FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF format for opening and saving documents now. So does 2007 SP2 as well. However in 2007 the opening of ods documents has deliberately broken formulaedon't know whether they've fixed this in 2010, or whether they even want to fix it... (No idea if someone already answered this somewhere else in this thread, so here I go ;-) ) MS sticks (anyway up until now) with the ISO-certified version of ODF. In the mean time ODF evolves. Formulae support is close to final, and for months already, there is very little chance that there will be changes in the specs. Even more: the formulae definitions in ODF have to a high level been based on MS-implementations of formulae. So MS could have made a choice to to implement close to final ODF versions already. For OOo and others, it is completely logic and natural to offer support for close-to-final ODF specifications already. ODF is the native format plus that the open source suites develop so much faster, that it would be impractical not to implement them. Best, Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
@rgb.mldc- if your request for a document included a format type, you might even include a link to LO as well. My copy of OO.o opens docx, so I can't say docx is unreadable. Everything I run is tweaked a little, so I am not a standard use case. There was a long thread on one of the Linux lists to which I subscribe of the poor taste of hr recruiters who ask for.doc versions of an applicant's resume on a linux-focused job board. Do you think an applicant would be considered if they sent an odf instead? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:55 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote: snip And if you are sent an OOXML document to edit and return then it's bad manners not to send it back in the format it was sent to you, just like it's bad manners to receive a plain text email and reply in HTML How about if I receive an HTML email and reply in plain text? If that's a faux pas, I've been a very bad boy. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this. If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and request that they send it in another format, explaining why. And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format... As I've stated previously, what version? I have installed OOo dev 3.4 (m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a docx. Paul -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Mark Preston m...@mpreston.demon.co.uk wrote: If I may inject what I hope is a little sense into this argument:- Thank you for injecting sense into what had become entirely emotional and irrational B^) A major strength of Open Office is and always was that it could read and often write documents in many proprietary formats. That strength should remain solidly a feature of Libre Office and for exactly the same reasons. When it comes to the Microsoft formats there is a significant issue with writing the formats - specifically, that even Microsoft cannot fully adhere to the standards they set. This is a major fault and it is one which Microsoft has placed into the marketplace. It leaves Libre Office with three choices when it comes to these formats. It can either:- 1. Write in the format as used by Microsoft. 2. Write in the format as specified in the ISO standard. 3. Refuse to write in the new formats at all. The problem with option 1 is that it is a strictly proprietary form which even Microsoft admits does not actually meet the open standard. It is therefore open to attacks using patent and other legislation if adopted by Libre Office. The problem with option 2 is that while it is an open standard it does not actually fully work with Microsoft Office and is therefore a pointless choice until (according to Microsoft) at least 2014. The problem with option 3 is that Libre Office would be left in the situation where its own files would need to be read by the ODF open feature in Microsoft Office, thus making Microsoft appear to be the ones making efforts to read incompatible formats. I would suggest that this is the very reason why Microsoft has taken this action with these formats. We are left, in short, with just two realistic choices. Either we reverse-engineer the OOXML as actually used and let Microsoft scream about it (as they certainly would) or we simply ignore the format for written documents and write them in the old doc format... while telling people clearly on the download website that this is because we are prevented from using the Microsoft open standard. Given the work involved in these choices, I would suggest the only realistic option is the latter one. Sincere thank you for a well-reasoned and clear analysis. Better minds than mine can decide whether or not it's complete. The idea of requesting a document in a readable format is also useful. Thanks to whoever in this monster thread suggested that. For the most part, I'm exchanging documents with acquaintances (so much for trying this trick with a recruiter who wants Word). Talking with them about file formats is simple. There's another dynamic at play here. Microsoft is facing a situation where markets with big potential are choosing open source. They have discounted MS products to near nothing to gain footholds in some of these markets. BRIC markets (as described by IMF and The Economist) are seen as up-and-coming. These countries--Brazil, Russia, India, China--are making or have already made commitments to open source. This is not good news for Microsoft. These countries represent serious market potential. If LibreOffice and other open source projects continue to operate as welcoming communities with other interests than profits and growth, then they will prosper. Some underlying principles support open source software. These principles should inform the way that this issue and others are resolved. Microsoft is obligated to do whatever it can to maximize return on investments. LibO and most other true open source projects also have stakeholders--us--who seek a different kind of return. I want quality software with a community of users who cooperate, where I can contribute and appreciate the contributions of others. Thanks again, Mark. Your message has the kind of clear thinking that I appreciate in the open source community. Carl Symons -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST) Paul Gress wrote: On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this. If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and request that they send it in another format, explaining why. And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format... As I've stated previously, what version? I have installed OOo dev 3.4 (m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a docx. Paul They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it. Plain old OOo does not have the docx save as docx ability. If one reads the links in the original post they will find out why. Hint: Novell is in bed with M$. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST) Paul Gress wrote: On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this. If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and request that they send it in another format, explaining why. And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format... As I've stated previously, what version? I have installed OOo dev 3.4 (m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a docx. Paul They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it. Plain old OOo does not have the docx save as docx ability. If one reads the links in the original post they will find out why. Hint: Novell is in bed with M$. Does this mean that Go-oo is driven by Novell? The contact on go-oo.org/about has a novell.com email address. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
There are many times in which HTML doesn't translate correctly to a recipient. The lowest common denominator, then, is plain text. That being the case I habitually set my email reader to send in plain text. Also, for one who uses gpg (or it's equivalent), even occasionally, the encrypting and/or signing program automatically converts to plain text. It isn't arrogance. It's the need to meet the needs of the greatest number of people. On 12/31/2010 11:31 AM, Carl Symons wrote: On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:55 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote: snip And if you are sent an OOXML document to edit and return then it's bad manners not to send it back in the format it was sent to you, just like it's bad manners to receive a plain text email and reply in HTML How about if I receive an HTML email and reply in plain text? If that's a faux pas, I've been a very bad boy. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:17:28 GMT-0800 (PST) Carl Symons wrote: On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST) Paul Gress wrote: On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this. If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and request that they send it in another format, explaining why. And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format... As I've stated previously, what version? I have installed OOo dev 3.4 (m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a docx. Paul They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it. Plain old OOo does not have the docx save as docx ability. If one reads the links in the original post they will find out why. Hint: Novell is in bed with M$. Does this mean that Go-oo is driven by Novell? The contact on go-oo.org/about has a novell.com email address. Yep. Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links. Very eye opening. Andy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 12/31/10 08:23 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 31/12/10 13:21, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote: As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and 300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX formats. Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not support writing to those formats, not even the development version for 3.4. Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option of Office 2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's not OOXML And it's the ORACLE version as well. I just installed OOo 3.2.1 in my Windows VBox and it didn't have a save as docx. When you select Help About Openoffice.org what version does it display? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:17:28 GMT-0800 (PST) Carl Symons wrote: On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST) Paul Gress wrote: On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this. If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and request that they send it in another format, explaining why. And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format... As I've stated previously, what version? I have installed OOo dev 3.4 (m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a docx. Paul They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it. Plain old OOo does not have the docx save as docx ability. If one reads the links in the original post they will find out why. Hint: Novell is in bed with M$. Does this mean that Go-oo is driven by Novell? The contact on go-oo.org/about has a novell.com email address. Yep. Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links. Very eye opening. Andy You're right, some interesting reading there and on the links. The Go-oo homepage also says Going forward, the Go-oo project will be discontinued in favor of LibreOffice. Does that mean that LibreOffice is driven by Novell too? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:45:46 GMT-0800 (PST) Carl Symons wrote: On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: Yep. Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links. Very eye opening. Andy You're right, some interesting reading there and on the links. The Go-oo homepage also says Going forward, the Go-oo project will be discontinued in favor of LibreOffice. Does that mean that LibreOffice is driven by Novell too? What do you think? Andy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:45:46 GMT-0800 (PST) Carl Symons wrote: On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: Yep. Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links. Very eye opening. Andy You're right, some interesting reading there and on the links. The Go-oo homepage also says Going forward, the Go-oo project will be discontinued in favor of LibreOffice. Does that mean that LibreOffice is driven by Novell too? What do you think? Andy Good question...especially as thinking sometimes gets me in trouble. Not being privy to the Novell sale goings-on, I don't know how the Novell/Microsoft arrangement unfolded, how much or what of the agreements (reported on the Groklaw link, first post) between MS and Novell are still in place, or who would be bound by them. Based on what I've read and the actions of people associated with The Document Foundation, I think that they are operating from true open source principles. Further, I think that the structures put in place around LibreOffice support an open source community. So, pretty much not knowing what I'm talking about, I think that LibreOffice is a valuable project worth using, supporting, caring about. I appreciate that the LO founders jumped off into the unknown with it. Carl -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
I support Larry's position. Carl Symons On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
openxml is a really bad thing for the community. It was a shame its approval by iso, specially if we consider there was no working implementation of it (not even msoffice support that standard!!) By implementing this format on LibO we are not helping to improve the (absurd myth of) interoperativity: we are only helping M$ to have an excuse (the only possible one: an independent implementation!) for the existence of those formats. To load those formats is OK if the file will be converted to ODF. To load those files in order save again on that absurd standard is a really wrong move. There is one thing that it is now more important than an opensource office suite, and that thing is a really open standard about file formats. We must protect ODF! Giving life support to ooxml is exactly on the opposite direction of that goal. Just my 2¢ 2010/12/30 Carl Symons carlsym...@gmail.com: I support Larry's position. Carl Symons On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
2010/12/30 Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com: OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid That means nothing. MSOffice will be able to read the previous formats for a while, I think... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two wrongs make a right? I thought the idea behind this particular office suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have to buy MS products. - -- Steven Shelton Deputy Undersecretary for Made-up Titles -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk0c6CIACgkQO+AD2HqgRoAFmACeJfN63kpY0scYYf4nh9HI6M3d m18AoMuiy7TqhzLg8pxuMEch0eDp2nKD =Lj+L -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote: On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid MS may create documents in OOXML by default. LibO can read them too. Larry Gusaas' original point was to avoid helping MS with this anti-open scheme. LibO should not help MS ...spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format... In other words, make it so that LibO can _read_ OOXML documents, but not _write/save as_ this format. Enable LibO to _write_ in MS' proprietary .doc format, but not their fake open format. It is not open. The intent of this fake file format is to damage open software applications. It is similar to what they did with web standards, their own special Java, their own special C++. MS bribed their way into getting OOXML accepted as an ISO open standard. Truly open applications shouldn't go along with this scam. MS has suffered very little for their bad behavior. Even MS Office users (prior to 2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud. Read the links in Larry Gusaas' original message in this thread. This is what the open community is up against. We don't have to go along with it. By the way, there is nothing inherently wrong with what MS is doing here. The U.S. system rewards corporations that flirt with the boundaries of legality. The Standards Committee went along with this, and the U.S. hapless regulatory system can't/won't come to the rescue. It is up to the open community to deal with it. Don't make it possible for an open application to write in a file format that seeks to damage it. Carl Symons -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Steven Shelton ste...@sheltonlegal.net wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two wrongs make a right? No that is not what MS does. MS reads writes in proprietary formats. They do not support open source formats. LibO should read any format and have the ability to write in proprietary formats. It should not write in proprietary formats masquerading as open formats. LibO should not go along with MS' chicanery. LibO is not engaging in deceptive practices. I thought the idea behind this particular office suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have to buy MS products. - -- Steven Shelton Any file format would still be accessible to read. If someone sends you a docx file, you will be able to open it. You can send a .doc (no x; no OOXML) file back to to them; they will be able to read it with their MS application. By sending a .docx file, the only thing accomplished is that MS has weakened open source. People can still exchange files in MS formats. The other user will still be able to use their MS applications. Not allowing docx _write_ ensures that MS nefarious scheme has been weakened. Other than that, no effect. If the LibO community doesn't take a stand on this issue, who else will? Simply put, MS is doing false advertising. Do you think that the FTC is gonna do anything about it? Not a prayer. MS has their cover with the Standards Committee decision. And how likely is it that some U.S. CongressCritter would allow the FTC to take action anyway? Carl Symons -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
- Original Message From: Carl Symons carlsym...@gmail.com To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Thu, December 30, 2010 3:47:30 PM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote: On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote: I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid MS may create documents in OOXML by default. LibO can read them too. Larry Gusaas' original point was to avoid helping MS with this anti-open scheme. LibO should not help MS ...spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format... In other words, make it so that LibO can _read_ OOXML documents, but not _write/save as_ this format. Enable LibO to _write_ in MS' proprietary .doc format, but not their fake open format. It is not open. The intent of this fake file format is to damage open software applications. Agree. LibO should only read OOXML if anything at all. It is similar to what they did with web standards, their own special Java, their own special C++. MS bribed their way into getting OOXML accepted as an ISO open standard. Truly open applications shouldn't go along with this scam. MS has suffered very little for their bad behavior. Even MS Office users (prior to 2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud. Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone supporting ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other formats - as third party as possible. In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF. We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone. The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so many other formats to get people to convert to their formats. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as to why. Ben P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play. P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an organizational standard. It's only those that don't that continue using the defaults. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
- Original Message From: BRM bm_witn...@yahoo.com Even MS Office users (prior to 2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud. Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone supporting ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other formats - as third party as possible. In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF. We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone. The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so many other formats to get people to convert to their formats. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as to why. Oh, and one other point - why risk the legal liability? Even ISO OOXML is burdened by licensing issues; but then again - MS continues to not support ISO OOXML and instead use their own 'enhanced' version which probably has far more legal liabilities than ISO OOXML. And while MS Office has moved on to newer versions of OOXML, ISO OOXML has not been updated - I'm not even sure Alex Brown pays attention to it any more as he seems to just be nit-picking ODF at the moment (see his posts on the ODF Office Comments list). $0.02 USD Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 12/30/2010 4:14 PM, BRM wrote: - Original Message snip We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone. Unfortunately, MS now claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing files with the ODF extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon discover that the MS implementation is not really compatible with other ODF implementations (most notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not just that). I think the MS plan here is to say that *they've* got the true standard implementation and everybody else is wrong. Since that (basically proprietary) version of ODF is now distributed as part of MS Office, it's just about everywhere, so they have the numbers on their side. That seems to leave everybody else once again playing catch-up with MS, which can then simply do as it pleases with the standard, being the 600-pound gorilla in the room. Interoperability issues will than be charged against the non-MS implementation, making it safer for organizations to stay with MS. Am I being unduly pessimistic here? The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so many other formats to get people to convert to their formats. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as to why. Ben P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play. P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an organizational standard. It's only those that don't that continue using the defaults. It looks as if the general opinion here is that reading OOXML is a good idea, and writing it is not. I agree. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
- Original Message From: Barbara Duprey b...@onr.com snip We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone. Unfortunately, MS now claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing files with the ODF extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon discover that the MS implementation is not really compatible with other ODF implementations (most notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not just that). I think the MS plan here is to say that *they've* got the true standard implementation and everybody else is wrong. Since that (basically proprietary) version of ODF is now distributed as part of MS Office, it's just about everywhere, so they have the numbers on their side. That seems to leave everybody else once again playing catch-up with MS, which can then simply do as it pleases with the standard, being the 600-pound gorilla in the room. Interoperability issues will than be charged against the non-MS implementation, making it safer for organizations to stay with MS. Am I being unduly pessimistic here? True, they do have a plug-in available to support ODF, but (last I checked) it is not part of the default install - you must install it separately, and it only supports Office 2007 and later, while they pushed OOXML support out to Office 2003 and possibly earlier versions too. However, they do not (again at least last I checked) let you save it via the normal means, e.g. Save/Save As dialog, and you cannot make it the default. They also follow only the 1.0 or may be the 1.1 version that made it through ISO refusing to do anything that is not in the ISO version, and then doing it in a rather broken manner. However, they are not the 600-pound gorilla in the ODF market given the dozens of implementations that more or less agree on how most things should be done. For instance, unlike all other implementations (again last I checked) MS wrote the value of the cell to the normal location for an ODS spreadsheet while writing the formula to a MS Office specific namespace - whereas everyone else write the formula to the cell location and not application specific namespaces. Effectively making MS Office ODF files non-interoperable with everyone else. I think they may also drop all other application specific data too; or may be they were kind enough to leave that intact, don't remember on that front. Conversely, I think there is likely enough interoperable software out there that it can be easily pointed out that MS has the broken implementation in such cases. Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Thu Dec 30 2010 12:19:55 GMT-0800 (PST) Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid If M$ were to use the proper standard then I would have no problem with the OOXML usage. The problem comes in when M$ uses their version instead of the standard, (see http://www.adjb.net/post/Microsoft-Fails-the-Standards-Test.aspx ). Reading the OPs links and following links from the different post leads to far more interesting reading. It is funny that the Sun plugin for MSO had better support for ODF than the built-in support from M$. M$ has no interest in any open format standard so they do everything, including sabotage to do away with them. My 2cents. Andy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:14 PM, BRM bm_witn...@yahoo.com wrote: several thread entries truncated I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats. See the following: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format. Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone supporting ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other formats - as third party as possible. In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF. We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone. As another writer has pointed out, forcing MS in these ways is self-defeating. MS is not going to be forced in any direction. MS managers are going to fulfill their legal obligation...make money, enrich investors. LibO TDF do not have this requirement. Attempts to make things difficult for MS will really only make things difficult for those people who are required to use MS products. Many of those users don't have a choice. It is not appropriate to bruise users in order to teach MS a lesson...a lesson that they probably won't learn anyway. A key point here needs amplification. As a USA citizen (even in Washington State, up the road from Redmond) and an open source community participant, my view is probably warped...I think that MS has gone over the line of propriety many times with almost no adverse consequence. They operate as a de facto monopoly. The US regulatory agencies have done little to curb this anti-social behavior. To people who live in another countries, I can only imagine how this behavior appears. Surveys and anecdotes indicate that computer users in other countries than the USA report software to be a sovereignty issue. LibO has an international scope. Governments (Russia recently for example) are moving to LibO and other open source applications to remove themselves from the MS hegemony. Reading a range of formats and offering the ability to save in a range of formats is generous and supportive of the little person user. Going along with MS' efforts to destroy the open document format does not, in the end, support the little person user. MS has a near monopoly; they use it to the greatest extent possible. The ultimate result of unethical monopoly behavior is that the monopolist's products drive other products out. There is no valid reason for aiding MS' efforts to damage open source. The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so many other formats to get people to convert to their formats. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? No, just because MS does it doesn't make it right. They are using their market power unfairly. If LibreOffice focuses on serving users generously, then _reading_ OOXML documents fits. Writing or saving as OOXML only damages open source applications; there is no benefit to users (as long as documents can be saved in a legitimate way). OOXML is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as to why. Ben P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play. P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an organizational standard. It's only those that don't that continue using the defaults. When somebody buys a new version of Office, their default save format is docx. I've worked with less sophisticated users who get a new computer and new Office to work from home. They can't understand why their teachers (running earlier Office versions) can't open their file. This is a bad deal that MS has foisted on people. It is not necessary to make them pay for this bad behavior...it wouldn't make much difference. But we shouldn't be accomplices to their crime. Carl -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
I have to use office2007 at work and I watch hundreds of core users (college students) struggle with my formatting requirements for homework assignments. Most of these are using the company-supplied computers, with office 2007, most of the time. Word allows reading and writing odf format. It tends to mess up fancy document formatting, but the most complicated document formatting these users do is adding a page number. The IT department set it up, so I don't know if the Plugin took manual set-up. If we could set up docx to save automatically to doc, that might be cool for us but don't you think that would just annoy core users of ms office? Most core users of any program just want to use it to perform some task. They don't care about these format battles. If we could make a couple of award-winning big-budget movies where format license was the pivotal plot device, we might have hope of including the core user in the controversy. I am not sure that deliberate exclusion coming from the let's get them before they get us vibe in this thread is going to work how we want. Once all European governments and half of Aisia go to open formats, maybe we just stop accepting ms formats at all. This is how ms office got their crushing grip on general business formatting, isn't it. Before Windows, the average university or (US) government core user was using WordPerfect on DOS. Over the next 5-10 years we will probably see a sea-change to *nix, cloud and open formats, but the focus of LO may have to shift to a SaaS delivery model to meet the challenges of that change. If the documents are shared primarily over the network through a browser, it will be very simple for those service providers to specify odf if we make the reasons clear enough, or if we are the providers of those services. Wolf Halton -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 12/30/10 08:09 PM, Carl Symons wrote: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828 ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice. One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format. I checked my OOo, dev m95 (3.4), it doesn't support save as docx and 3.3 rc8 (3.3 m18) also doesn't support docx in save as. What version are you using that supports docx? Also, for what it's worth, saving as a docx to me is a bad idea. I've imported doc files extensively in the past, straightened them out to view properly, saved as an odt, then saved as a doc again only to find some different formatting doesn't come out correctly with the doc. I suspect docx will be worse. I have got many people in the past to convert to OOo. I will now promote them to Libreoffice. I cannot move over myself as I use Solaris 11 Express (similar to Opensolaris) which there is no port. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
