Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Peter Baumann]

Hi Jeff,

many thanks for undoing, and for the clarification. This was exactly what I was
asking for, nothing else.

As Bruce stated, I highly value you personally as well as your relentless work
for and with OSGeo to steer the tall ship, and by no means I was implying
malice. I was somewhat upset by the community reaction of "come on, it's not so
bad" (which I found unilateral compared to other occasions).

On my side, I will remove mentioning of the case from our incubation history
tracking.

Also, I agree that both sides have tempered up in this discussion. Thanks to
your settlement of the root cause we might all reach out hands now and consider
it settled.

thanks again,
Peter


On 2015-09-19 00:58, Jeff McKenna wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> Please understand that OSGeo is having its big annual conference FOSS4G in
> Seoul now, and that you sent all this right before the big final day (lots
> going on).  I note that you chose to send this to the entire community, and
> not tell and ask me directly, since, just now you sent me a single line
> message stating that it was in fact me who "did this". We are all working so
> hard to promote FOSS, on our own unpaid time, giving almost our lives to this
> (putting health and family and life in general aside).  I ask you for some
> respect, please.
>
> Regarding OpenHub, this apparently happened, by the logs, on 13 March 2013, me
> "claiming" the rasdaman project for the OSGeo listing on OpenHub.  I vaguely
> remember Mateusz setting the organization up on OpenHub and then letting me
> know (I think through IRC, as I cannot find any e-mail messages), and he added
> me as the owner.  I believe he only added a few projects, and then I added all
> of the OSGeo projects into the OpenHub listing.
>
> I did not do this with any ill intention. At all.  I apologize for this, I did
> not mean to appear to be stealing or claiming anything, other than listing
> rasdaman under the OSGeo umbrella, as I/we do for all incubating projects.
>
> I have logged into OpenHub (likely my first time since that same day in 2013)
> and undid that change.
>
> If you have a problem with my actions, you can contact the other OSGeo Board
> members directly or use the Charter members mailing list, and then ask for
> repercussions against myself.  Until then I will keep trying my best to
> promote all OSGeo projects and Open Source geospatial.
>
> I hope you are well.  Hello from FOSS4G-Seoul.
>
>
> Yours,
>
> -jeff
>

-- 
Dr. Peter Baumann
 - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
   www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
   mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de
   tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
   www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com
   tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis 
dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec 
preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Peter Baumann]

Hi Cameron,

thank you for confirming the appropriateness of requesting a correction.

To me this is a serious issue of conduct - unless CoC exclusively has been
established to persecute gender issues, in which case (i) CoC should be renamed
and (ii) a general conduct observing any other conduct violations (now with my
hat as Charter Member on).

Just to emphasize, this thread is not about incubation (yes, I am less than
happy about that too, but out of scope here).

-Peter


On 2015-09-17 23:21, Cameron Shorter wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> I think your request to have ownership of Rasdaman "corrected" to be owned by
> GmbH is reasonable, especially since the license of code I assume shows
> reference to GmbH? I also assume this could be confirmed if someone were to
> check the lineage of code commits?
>
> I'd hope that this can be resolved without needing to refer to the CoC
> Committee, which would typically deal with cases such as personal slander. I
> realise that Jeff suggested this committee, but he also suggested providing
> more information - which would be required should this be a CoC issue.
>
> I'd be inclined to suspect this issue could be resolved easily? I'd also
> suspect that this is an accident rather than foul play by someone? At the very
> least, we should assume innocence until proven guilty of any person involved.
>
> With regards to reference to incubation of rasdaman. Last correspondence on
> this matter [1] has been that the incubation committee members have provided
> feedback and actions to address before rasdaman is ready to be incubated. We
> are waiting for such actions to be complete.
>
> [1] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/incubator/2015-April/002695.html
>
> On 18/09/2015 2:21 am, Peter Baumann wrote:
>> Hello community,
>>
>> here is another real case that I would like to raise.
>>
>> rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner rasdaman 
>> GmbH
>> set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at 
>> some
>> time in the past.
>>
>> To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5 years now 
>> [2],
>> and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation requiring this and that 
>> extra
>> documentation.
>>
>> I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of professional 
>> ethics
>> and request to immediately "give back" the project as a remedial action. I 
>> could
>> do it myself, but recently OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to
>> which, as blog comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to bring
>> this sacrifice.
>>
>> Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose identity
>> publicly following suggested practice.
>>
>> Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC Committee (or
>> whoever is in charge).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
>>
>> [0] http://www.rasdaman.org
>> [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
>> [2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo
>>
>> PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules to prevent
>> such a case in future.
>>
>

-- 
Dr. Peter Baumann
 - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
   www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
   mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de
   tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
   www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com
   tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis 
dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec 
preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Peter Baumann]

Hi Jeff,

no problem: on the OpenHub page for rasdaman, OSGeo is listed as owner. This is
misinformation, owner is rasdaman GmbH.
You are right, this upsets me, and I am requesting that OSGeo restores the real
owner immediately.

-Peter



On 2015-09-17 22:56, Jeff McKenna wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to understand
> your full issue.  Can you please explain here to everyone what you mean by "I
> found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at some
> time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far as I know, rasdaman
> is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having been at the OSGeo booth here
> most of this week I have spoken to many people coming to the booth about
> rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I am in the total dark here, maybe you could
> explain more to everyone, as I sense that you are upset.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -jeff
>
>
>
> On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:
>> Hello community,
>>
>> here is another real case that I would like to raise.
>>
>> rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner rasdaman 
>> GmbH
>> set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at 
>> some
>> time in the past.
>>
>> To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5 years now 
>> [2],
>> and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation requiring this and that 
>> extra
>> documentation.
>>
>> I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of professional 
>> ethics
>> and request to immediately "give back" the project as a remedial action. I 
>> could
>> do it myself, but recently OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to
>> which, as blog comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to bring
>> this sacrifice.
>>
>> Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose identity
>> publicly following suggested practice.
>>
>> Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC Committee (or
>> whoever is in charge).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
>>
>> [0] http://www.rasdaman.org
>> [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
>> [2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo
>>
>> PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules to prevent
>> such a case in future.
>>
>
>
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

-- 
Dr. Peter Baumann
 - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
   www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
   mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de
   tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
   www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com
   tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis 
dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec 
preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Peter Baumann]

hm, if this is not a case of conduct violation, in this case in the name of
OSGeo and hence harming the reputation of the whole organization, then I cannot
see what else qualifies.
-Peter

On 2015-09-17 23:17, Camille Acey wrote:
> I am having a hard time seeing how this is a CoC matter.
> Camille
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Jeff McKenna  > wrote:
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to
> understand your full issue.  Can you please explain here to everyone what
> you mean by "I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at some
> time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far as I know,
> rasdaman is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having been at the OSGeo
> booth here most of this week I have spoken to many people coming to the
> booth about rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I am in the total dark here, maybe
> you could explain more to everyone, as I sense that you are upset.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -jeff
>
>
>
>
> On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:
>
> Hello community,
>
> here is another real case that I would like to raise.
>
> rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner
> rasdaman GmbH
> set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman
> at some
> time in the past.
>
> To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5 years
> now [2],
> and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation requiring this and
> that extra
> documentation.
>
> I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of
> professional ethics
> and request to immediately "give back" the project as a remedial
> action. I could
> do it myself, but recently OpenHub requires a phone number to be
> entered to
> which, as blog comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo
> to bring
> this sacrifice.
>
> Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose
> identity
> publicly following suggested practice.
>
> Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC 
> Committee (or
> whoever is in charge).
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
> [0] http://www.rasdaman.org
> [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
> [2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo
>
> PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules to
> prevent
> such a case in future.
>
>
>
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org 
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

-- 
Dr. Peter Baumann
 - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
   www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
   mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de
   tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
   www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com
   tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis 
dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec 
preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)


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Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Jeff McKenna]

Hi Peter,

Please understand that OSGeo is having its big annual conference FOSS4G 
in Seoul now, and that you sent all this right before the big final day 
(lots going on).  I note that you chose to send this to the entire 
community, and not tell and ask me directly, since, just now you sent me 
a single line message stating that it was in fact me who "did this". We 
are all working so hard to promote FOSS, on our own unpaid time, giving 
almost our lives to this (putting health and family and life in general 
aside).  I ask you for some respect, please.


Regarding OpenHub, this apparently happened, by the logs, on 13 March 
2013, me "claiming" the rasdaman project for the OSGeo listing on 
OpenHub.  I vaguely remember Mateusz setting the organization up on 
OpenHub and then letting me know (I think through IRC, as I cannot find 
any e-mail messages), and he added me as the owner.  I believe he only 
added a few projects, and then I added all of the OSGeo projects into 
the OpenHub listing.


I did not do this with any ill intention. At all.  I apologize for this, 
I did not mean to appear to be stealing or claiming anything, other than 
listing rasdaman under the OSGeo umbrella, as I/we do for all incubating 
projects.


I have logged into OpenHub (likely my first time since that same day in 
2013) and undid that change.


If you have a problem with my actions, you can contact the other OSGeo 
Board members directly or use the Charter members mailing list, and then 
ask for repercussions against myself.  Until then I will keep trying my 
best to promote all OSGeo projects and Open Source geospatial.


I hope you are well.  Hello from FOSS4G-Seoul.


Yours,

-jeff

--
Jeff McKenna
President, OSGeo
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna



On 2015-09-19 1:41 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:

just to clarify: it is a _very_ simple step: OSGeo needs to login to OpenHub
(obviously they have one, otherwise this false claim could not have been
established) to undo that claim. That simple.

So, when will OSGeo do that?

-Peter


On 2015-09-18 17:02, Stephen Woodbridge wrote:

Ok, maybe I don't understand, but why doesn't somebody just fix this issue. It
seems everyone agrees the listing is wrong on the site. Somebody should have a
cease and desist letter sent to the site to change the owner to the correct
name or remove the posting.

whois openhub.net

for the site particulars. This assumes that the person the created the posting
on the site is unknown or not available to change it.

It might expedite things if BOTH osgeo and rasdaman GmbH sent similar letters
making similar requests so the site gets confirmation from both parties and
does not need to worry if this is an attempt to "steal" the listing.

-Steve W

On 9/18/2015 10:28 AM, Michael Gerlek wrote:

I agree: Peter’s issue doesn’t seem to be a Code of Conduct issue, it
seems closer to a Code of Ethics issue — but even that’s not quite
right. I think this is more properly a grievance to be taken up
directly with the Board.

Suggestion: the CoC team right want to consider a couple lines on the
wiki page that (further) clarify the intent of the Code of Conduct,
as opposed to the intent of a Code of Ethics [1][2]. The two are
similar in their ultimate goals, but address different areas of our
professional lives and activities [3].

[1] https://www.acm.org/about/code-of-ethics [2]
http://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html [3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_code

-mpg





On Sep 17, 2015, at 5:17 PM, Camille Acey 
wrote:

I am having a hard time seeing how this is a CoC matter. Camille

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Jeff McKenna
 wrote: Hi Peter,

It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to
understand your full issue.  Can you please explain here to
everyone what you mean by "I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman
at some time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far
as I know, rasdaman is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having
been at the OSGeo booth here most of this week I have spoken to
many people coming to the booth about rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I
am in the total dark here, maybe you could explain more to
everyone, as I sense that you are upset.

Thanks,

-jeff




On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote: Hello community,

here is another real case that I would like to raise.

rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner
rasdaman GmbH set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has
claimed rasdaman at some time in the past.

To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5
years now [2], and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation
requiring this and that extra documentation.

I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of
professional ethics and request to immediately "give back" the
project as a remedial action. I could do it myself, but recently
OpenHub requires a 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Cameron Shorter]

Hi Peter,
Could I request that you please take a deep breath and then temper your 
language before posting again.
It appears you feel quite offended that ownership of rasdaman has been 
incorrectly assigned to OSGeo. That is understandable.
I've personally taken offense to your suggestions of malice from OSGeo 
and what we stand for. Surely you have been involved with OSGeo long 
enough to realise that OSGeo is just a collection of volunteers who help 
each other?
And hopefully you have noticed that the responders to your emails have 
been asking you to help them help you?


People are attracted to help others when they are having fun, and it is 
not so fun when offers of help attract a rude response. So could you 
please be more helpful (and specific) in answering those offering to 
help you.


This will be my last post on this thread.

Warm regards,
Cameron

On 19/09/2015 2:41 am, Peter Baumann wrote:

just to clarify: it is a _very_ simple step: OSGeo needs to login to OpenHub
(obviously they have one, otherwise this false claim could not have been
established) to undo that claim. That simple.

So, when will OSGeo do that?

-Peter


On 2015-09-18 17:02, Stephen Woodbridge wrote:

Ok, maybe I don't understand, but why doesn't somebody just fix this issue. It
seems everyone agrees the listing is wrong on the site. Somebody should have a
cease and desist letter sent to the site to change the owner to the correct
name or remove the posting.

whois openhub.net

for the site particulars. This assumes that the person the created the posting
on the site is unknown or not available to change it.

It might expedite things if BOTH osgeo and rasdaman GmbH sent similar letters
making similar requests so the site gets confirmation from both parties and
does not need to worry if this is an attempt to "steal" the listing.

-Steve W

On 9/18/2015 10:28 AM, Michael Gerlek wrote:

I agree: Peter’s issue doesn’t seem to be a Code of Conduct issue, it
seems closer to a Code of Ethics issue — but even that’s not quite
right. I think this is more properly a grievance to be taken up
directly with the Board.

Suggestion: the CoC team right want to consider a couple lines on the
wiki page that (further) clarify the intent of the Code of Conduct,
as opposed to the intent of a Code of Ethics [1][2]. The two are
similar in their ultimate goals, but address different areas of our
professional lives and activities [3].

[1] https://www.acm.org/about/code-of-ethics [2]
http://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html [3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_code

-mpg





On Sep 17, 2015, at 5:17 PM, Camille Acey 
wrote:

I am having a hard time seeing how this is a CoC matter. Camille

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Jeff McKenna
 wrote: Hi Peter,

It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to
understand your full issue.  Can you please explain here to
everyone what you mean by "I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman
at some time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far
as I know, rasdaman is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having
been at the OSGeo booth here most of this week I have spoken to
many people coming to the booth about rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I
am in the total dark here, maybe you could explain more to
everyone, as I sense that you are upset.

Thanks,

-jeff




On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote: Hello community,

here is another real case that I would like to raise.

rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner
rasdaman GmbH set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has
claimed rasdaman at some time in the past.

To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5
years now [2], and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation
requiring this and that extra documentation.

I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of
professional ethics and request to immediately "give back" the
project as a remedial action. I could do it myself, but recently
OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to which, as blog
comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to bring this
sacrifice.

Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose
identity publicly following suggested practice.

Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC
Committee (or whoever is in charge).

Thanks, Peter

[0] http://www.rasdaman.org [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
[2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo

PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules
to prevent such a case in future.



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Michael Gerlek]

I agree: Peter’s issue doesn’t seem to be a Code of Conduct issue, it seems 
closer to a Code of Ethics issue — but even that’s not quite right. I think 
this is more properly a grievance to be taken up directly with the Board.

Suggestion: the CoC team right want to consider a couple lines on the wiki page 
that (further) clarify the intent of the Code of Conduct, as opposed to the 
intent of a Code of Ethics [1][2]. The two are similar in their ultimate goals, 
but address different areas of our professional lives and activities [3].

[1] https://www.acm.org/about/code-of-ethics
[2] http://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_code

-mpg




> On Sep 17, 2015, at 5:17 PM, Camille Acey  wrote:
> 
> I am having a hard time seeing how this is a CoC matter. 
> Camille
> 
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Jeff McKenna  
> wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> 
> It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to understand 
> your full issue.  Can you please explain here to everyone what you mean by "I 
> found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at some
> time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far as I know, 
> rasdaman is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having been at the OSGeo 
> booth here most of this week I have spoken to many people coming to the booth 
> about rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I am in the total dark here, maybe you 
> could explain more to everyone, as I sense that you are upset.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -jeff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:
> Hello community,
> 
> here is another real case that I would like to raise.
> 
> rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner rasdaman 
> GmbH
> set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at some
> time in the past.
> 
> To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5 years now 
> [2],
> and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation requiring this and that 
> extra
> documentation.
> 
> I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of professional 
> ethics
> and request to immediately "give back" the project as a remedial action. I 
> could
> do it myself, but recently OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to
> which, as blog comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to bring
> this sacrifice.
> 
> Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose identity
> publicly following suggested practice.
> 
> Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC Committee (or
> whoever is in charge).
> 
> Thanks,
> Peter
> 
> [0] http://www.rasdaman.org
> [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
> [2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo
> 
> PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules to prevent
> such a case in future.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Stephen Woodbridge]

Ok, maybe I don't understand, but why doesn't somebody just fix this 
issue. It seems everyone agrees the listing is wrong on the site. 
Somebody should have a cease and desist letter sent to the site to 
change the owner to the correct name or remove the posting.


whois openhub.net

for the site particulars. This assumes that the person the created the 
posting on the site is unknown or not available to change it.


It might expedite things if BOTH osgeo and rasdaman GmbH sent similar 
letters making similar requests so the site gets confirmation from both 
parties and does not need to worry if this is an attempt to "steal" the 
listing.


-Steve W

On 9/18/2015 10:28 AM, Michael Gerlek wrote:

I agree: Peter’s issue doesn’t seem to be a Code of Conduct issue, it
seems closer to a Code of Ethics issue — but even that’s not quite
right. I think this is more properly a grievance to be taken up
directly with the Board.

Suggestion: the CoC team right want to consider a couple lines on the
wiki page that (further) clarify the intent of the Code of Conduct,
as opposed to the intent of a Code of Ethics [1][2]. The two are
similar in their ultimate goals, but address different areas of our
professional lives and activities [3].

[1] https://www.acm.org/about/code-of-ethics [2]
http://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html [3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_code

-mpg





On Sep 17, 2015, at 5:17 PM, Camille Acey 
wrote:

I am having a hard time seeing how this is a CoC matter. Camille

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Jeff McKenna
 wrote: Hi Peter,

It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to
understand your full issue.  Can you please explain here to
everyone what you mean by "I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman
at some time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far
as I know, rasdaman is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having
been at the OSGeo booth here most of this week I have spoken to
many people coming to the booth about rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I
am in the total dark here, maybe you could explain more to
everyone, as I sense that you are upset.

Thanks,

-jeff




On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote: Hello community,

here is another real case that I would like to raise.

rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner
rasdaman GmbH set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has
claimed rasdaman at some time in the past.

To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5
years now [2], and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation
requiring this and that extra documentation.

I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of
professional ethics and request to immediately "give back" the
project as a remedial action. I could do it myself, but recently
OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to which, as blog
comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to bring this
sacrifice.

Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose
identity publicly following suggested practice.

Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC
Committee (or whoever is in charge).

Thanks, Peter

[0] http://www.rasdaman.org [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
[2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo

PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules
to prevent such a case in future.



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Peter Baumann]

hm, this is not my current interest, but I observe in passing that the term
"code of conduct" in OSGeo appears ...let's say... used by some people with very
focused interests. But as said, my concern gets first, and to me it is secondary
who acts as long as somebody acts :)
-Peter

On 2015-09-18 12:22, Camille Acey wrote:
>
> Issues relating to the reputation of the org should be dealt with by the board
> or a legal committee.
>
> We will soon begin discussion about CoC procedures and pull together general
> guidance. In the interim, you can view the wiki to find what the CoC committee
> is/is not.
>
> On Sep 18, 2015 04:38, "Peter Baumann"  > wrote:
>
> Hi Cameron,
>
> thank you for confirming the appropriateness of requesting a correction.
>
> To me this is a serious issue of conduct - unless CoC exclusively has been
> established to persecute gender issues, in which case (i) CoC should be
> renamed
> and (ii) a general conduct observing any other conduct violations (now 
> with my
> hat as Charter Member on).
>
> Just to emphasize, this thread is not about incubation (yes, I am less 
> than
> happy about that too, but out of scope here).
>
> -Peter
>
>
> On 2015-09-17 23:21, Cameron Shorter wrote:
> > Hi Peter,
> > I think your request to have ownership of Rasdaman "corrected" to be
> owned by
> > GmbH is reasonable, especially since the license of code I assume shows
> > reference to GmbH? I also assume this could be confirmed if someone 
> were to
> > check the lineage of code commits?
> >
> > I'd hope that this can be resolved without needing to refer to the CoC
> > Committee, which would typically deal with cases such as personal 
> slander. I
> > realise that Jeff suggested this committee, but he also suggested 
> providing
> > more information - which would be required should this be a CoC issue.
> >
> > I'd be inclined to suspect this issue could be resolved easily? I'd also
> > suspect that this is an accident rather than foul play by someone? At
> the very
> > least, we should assume innocence until proven guilty of any person
> involved.
> >
> > With regards to reference to incubation of rasdaman. Last 
> correspondence on
> > this matter [1] has been that the incubation committee members have 
> provided
> > feedback and actions to address before rasdaman is ready to be 
> incubated. We
> > are waiting for such actions to be complete.
> >
> > [1] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/incubator/2015-April/002695.html
> >
> > On 18/09/2015 2:21 am, Peter Baumann wrote:
> >> Hello community,
> >>
> >> here is another real case that I would like to raise.
> >>
> >> rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner
> rasdaman GmbH
> >> set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman
> at some
> >> time in the past.
> >>
> >> To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5 years
> now [2],
> >> and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation requiring this and
> that extra
> >> documentation.
> >>
> >> I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of
> professional ethics
> >> and request to immediately "give back" the project as a remedial
> action. I could
> >> do it myself, but recently OpenHub requires a phone number to be 
> entered to
> >> which, as blog comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to
> bring
> >> this sacrifice.
> >>
> >> Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose 
> identity
> >> publicly following suggested practice.
> >>
> >> Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC Committee 
> (or
> >> whoever is in charge).
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Peter
> >>
> >> [0] http://www.rasdaman.org
> >> [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
> >> [2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo
> >>
> >> PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules to
> prevent
> >> such a case in future.
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Dr. Peter Baumann
>  - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
>www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
> 
>mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de
> 
>tel: +49-421-200-3178 , fax: +49-421-200-493178
> 
>  - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
>www.rasdaman.com , mail: baum...@rasdaman.com
> 
>tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
> 
>   

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Peter Baumann]

so first OSGeo steals a project identity and then just says "go cure yourself"?
That won't fly.
-Peter


On 2015-09-18 17:30, Markus Neteler wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Stephen Woodbridge
>  wrote:
>> Ok, maybe I don't understand, but why doesn't somebody just fix this issue.
>> It seems everyone agrees the listing is wrong on the site. Somebody should
> ... just check the page itself:
>
> https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
> "About Basics
>  The project name will be shown in Open Hub search results, as well as
> in search engines. This name must be unique across all of Open Hub.
> Please Contact us if you believe your preferred project name is
> incorrectly assigned to another project. Please use as short a name as
> possible.
> "
> --> Please Contact us = http://blog.openhub.net/support-2/
>
> Very easy to do that.
>
> But: the manager of that openhub page is here:
>
> rasdaman
> -  Settings |  Report Duplicate
>- Settings : Managers
>  - pebau
>https://www.openhub.net/accounts/pebau
>"Principal Architect of rasdaman."
>
> Peter, probably you can edit the page right away after login?
> Otherwise "Support" above.
>
> (I agree that there are too many links on the openhub pages)
>
> cheers,
> Markus

-- 
Dr. Peter Baumann
 - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
   www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
   mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de
   tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
   www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com
   tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis 
dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec 
preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Peter Baumann]

I am baffled how easy this incident is taken. I cannot believe that OSGeo takes
responsibility and professional behavior so lightly - after all, an organization
fraudulently usurpates a project for improving its external. Compare this to the
rave and concerns over open LIDAR formats.

What I want is clearly stated in my very first mail: "request to immediately
"give back" the project as a remedial action" ...and a public (ie, list) excuse.
I will not do that myself. The defaulting party has the moral (and professional)
obligation to remedy.

-Peter



On 2015-09-18 18:11, Alex Mandel wrote:
> This might just be an accidental bit of confusion. At some point the
> Marketing and Outreach committee did want to make sure that all OSGeo
> projects had listings on OpenHub because we pull these stats into
> OSGeo-Live and other materials. We also wanted all OSGeo projects to
> show up if someone looked at the OSGeo org (this is a way to market the
> projects).
>
> I don't think we ever intended to misrepresent who owns the copyrights,
> trademarks, etc...
>
> Looking at the page I don't see Owner as a field. I only see
> Organization and I'm not clear if a project can be part of more than 1 Org.
>
> This seems like something we can easily resolve. Are you asking us to
> remove the Organization link? Please state exactly what you expect us to
> fix.
>
> Thanks,
> Alex
>
>
>
> On 09/18/2015 01:26 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:
>> Hi Jeff,
>>
>> no problem: on the OpenHub page for rasdaman, OSGeo is listed as owner. This 
>> is
>> misinformation, owner is rasdaman GmbH.
>> You are right, this upsets me, and I am requesting that OSGeo restores the 
>> real
>> owner immediately.
>>
>> -Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2015-09-17 22:56, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>> Hi Peter,
>>>
>>> It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to understand
>>> your full issue.  Can you please explain here to everyone what you mean by 
>>> "I
>>> found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at some
>>> time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far as I know, 
>>> rasdaman
>>> is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having been at the OSGeo booth here
>>> most of this week I have spoken to many people coming to the booth about
>>> rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I am in the total dark here, maybe you could
>>> explain more to everyone, as I sense that you are upset.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:
 Hello community,

 here is another real case that I would like to raise.

 rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner 
 rasdaman GmbH
 set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at 
 some
 time in the past.

 To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5 years now 
 [2],
 and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation requiring this and that 
 extra
 documentation.

 I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of professional 
 ethics
 and request to immediately "give back" the project as a remedial action. I 
 could
 do it myself, but recently OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to
 which, as blog comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to 
 bring
 this sacrifice.

 Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose identity
 publicly following suggested practice.

 Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC Committee (or
 whoever is in charge).

 Thanks,
 Peter

 [0] http://www.rasdaman.org
 [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
 [2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo

 PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules to 
 prevent
 such a case in future.

>>>
>>> ___
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

-- 
Dr. Peter Baumann
 - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
   www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
   mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de
   tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
   www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com
   tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis 
dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec 
preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Peter Baumann]

just to clarify: it is a _very_ simple step: OSGeo needs to login to OpenHub
(obviously they have one, otherwise this false claim could not have been
established) to undo that claim. That simple.

So, when will OSGeo do that?

-Peter


On 2015-09-18 17:02, Stephen Woodbridge wrote:
> Ok, maybe I don't understand, but why doesn't somebody just fix this issue. It
> seems everyone agrees the listing is wrong on the site. Somebody should have a
> cease and desist letter sent to the site to change the owner to the correct
> name or remove the posting.
>
> whois openhub.net
>
> for the site particulars. This assumes that the person the created the posting
> on the site is unknown or not available to change it.
>
> It might expedite things if BOTH osgeo and rasdaman GmbH sent similar letters
> making similar requests so the site gets confirmation from both parties and
> does not need to worry if this is an attempt to "steal" the listing.
>
> -Steve W
>
> On 9/18/2015 10:28 AM, Michael Gerlek wrote:
>> I agree: Peter’s issue doesn’t seem to be a Code of Conduct issue, it
>> seems closer to a Code of Ethics issue — but even that’s not quite
>> right. I think this is more properly a grievance to be taken up
>> directly with the Board.
>>
>> Suggestion: the CoC team right want to consider a couple lines on the
>> wiki page that (further) clarify the intent of the Code of Conduct,
>> as opposed to the intent of a Code of Ethics [1][2]. The two are
>> similar in their ultimate goals, but address different areas of our
>> professional lives and activities [3].
>>
>> [1] https://www.acm.org/about/code-of-ethics [2]
>> http://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html [3]
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_code
>>
>> -mpg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 5:17 PM, Camille Acey 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am having a hard time seeing how this is a CoC matter. Camille
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Jeff McKenna
>>>  wrote: Hi Peter,
>>>
>>> It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to
>>> understand your full issue.  Can you please explain here to
>>> everyone what you mean by "I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman
>>> at some time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far
>>> as I know, rasdaman is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having
>>> been at the OSGeo booth here most of this week I have spoken to
>>> many people coming to the booth about rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I
>>> am in the total dark here, maybe you could explain more to
>>> everyone, as I sense that you are upset.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote: Hello community,
>>>
>>> here is another real case that I would like to raise.
>>>
>>> rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner
>>> rasdaman GmbH set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has
>>> claimed rasdaman at some time in the past.
>>>
>>> To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5
>>> years now [2], and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation
>>> requiring this and that extra documentation.
>>>
>>> I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of
>>> professional ethics and request to immediately "give back" the
>>> project as a remedial action. I could do it myself, but recently
>>> OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to which, as blog
>>> comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to bring this
>>> sacrifice.
>>>
>>> Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose
>>> identity publicly following suggested practice.
>>>
>>> Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC
>>> Committee (or whoever is in charge).
>>>
>>> Thanks, Peter
>>>
>>> [0] http://www.rasdaman.org [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
>>> [2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo
>>>
>>> PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules
>>> to prevent such a case in future.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___ Discuss mailing
>>> list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>> ___ Discuss mailing
>>> list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>> ___ Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

-- 
Dr. Peter Baumann
 - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
   www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
   mail: p.baum...@jacobs-university.de
   tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
   www.rasdaman.com, mail: baum...@rasdaman.com
   tel: 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Puneet Kishor]

Give the guy his project back and be done with it. That way all of us can go 
along our separate ways unfettered by each other.

--
Puneet Kishor

> On Sep 18, 2015, at 6:41 PM, Peter Baumann  
> wrote:
> 
> just to clarify: it is a _very_ simple step: OSGeo needs to login to OpenHub
> (obviously they have one, otherwise this false claim could not have been
> established) to undo that claim. That simple.
> 
> So, when will OSGeo do that?
> 
> -Peter
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Markus Neteler]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Stephen Woodbridge
 wrote:
> Ok, maybe I don't understand, but why doesn't somebody just fix this issue.
> It seems everyone agrees the listing is wrong on the site. Somebody should

... just check the page itself:

https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
"About Basics
 The project name will be shown in Open Hub search results, as well as
in search engines. This name must be unique across all of Open Hub.
Please Contact us if you believe your preferred project name is
incorrectly assigned to another project. Please use as short a name as
possible.
"
--> Please Contact us = http://blog.openhub.net/support-2/

Very easy to do that.

But: the manager of that openhub page is here:

rasdaman
-  Settings |  Report Duplicate
   - Settings : Managers
 - pebau
   https://www.openhub.net/accounts/pebau
   "Principal Architect of rasdaman."

Peter, probably you can edit the page right away after login?
Otherwise "Support" above.

(I agree that there are too many links on the openhub pages)

cheers,
Markus
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Alex Mandel]

This might just be an accidental bit of confusion. At some point the
Marketing and Outreach committee did want to make sure that all OSGeo
projects had listings on OpenHub because we pull these stats into
OSGeo-Live and other materials. We also wanted all OSGeo projects to
show up if someone looked at the OSGeo org (this is a way to market the
projects).

I don't think we ever intended to misrepresent who owns the copyrights,
trademarks, etc...

Looking at the page I don't see Owner as a field. I only see
Organization and I'm not clear if a project can be part of more than 1 Org.

This seems like something we can easily resolve. Are you asking us to
remove the Organization link? Please state exactly what you expect us to
fix.

Thanks,
Alex



On 09/18/2015 01:26 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> no problem: on the OpenHub page for rasdaman, OSGeo is listed as owner. This 
> is
> misinformation, owner is rasdaman GmbH.
> You are right, this upsets me, and I am requesting that OSGeo restores the 
> real
> owner immediately.
> 
> -Peter
> 
> 
> 
> On 2015-09-17 22:56, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to understand
>> your full issue.  Can you please explain here to everyone what you mean by "I
>> found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at some
>> time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far as I know, 
>> rasdaman
>> is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having been at the OSGeo booth here
>> most of this week I have spoken to many people coming to the booth about
>> rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I am in the total dark here, maybe you could
>> explain more to everyone, as I sense that you are upset.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:
>>> Hello community,
>>>
>>> here is another real case that I would like to raise.
>>>
>>> rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner rasdaman 
>>> GmbH
>>> set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at 
>>> some
>>> time in the past.
>>>
>>> To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5 years now 
>>> [2],
>>> and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation requiring this and that 
>>> extra
>>> documentation.
>>>
>>> I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of professional 
>>> ethics
>>> and request to immediately "give back" the project as a remedial action. I 
>>> could
>>> do it myself, but recently OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to
>>> which, as blog comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to 
>>> bring
>>> this sacrifice.
>>>
>>> Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose identity
>>> publicly following suggested practice.
>>>
>>> Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC Committee (or
>>> whoever is in charge).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> [0] http://www.rasdaman.org
>>> [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
>>> [2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo
>>>
>>> PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules to 
>>> prevent
>>> such a case in future.
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Alex M]

Looks like Jeff or Mateusz needs to login (the designated managers on
openhub), and go to
https://www.openhub.net/orgs/OSGeo/manage_projects
then remove Rasdaman from OSGeo projects.
Am I correct in understanding that is what you are requesting?

I can't see anything on OpenHub that allows affiliating with multiple
orgs so that you could indicate both Ownership and that there is in fact
some relationship to OSGeo.

Side note, "Code of Conducts" in recent years are generally about how
people treat each other in their interactions, with mutual respect.

Thanks,
-Alex


On 09/18/2015 09:41 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:
> just to clarify: it is a _very_ simple step: OSGeo needs to login to OpenHub
> (obviously they have one, otherwise this false claim could not have been
> established) to undo that claim. That simple.
> 
> So, when will OSGeo do that?
> 
> -Peter
> 
> 
> On 2015-09-18 17:02, Stephen Woodbridge wrote:
>> Ok, maybe I don't understand, but why doesn't somebody just fix this issue. 
>> It
>> seems everyone agrees the listing is wrong on the site. Somebody should have 
>> a
>> cease and desist letter sent to the site to change the owner to the correct
>> name or remove the posting.
>>
>> whois openhub.net
>>
>> for the site particulars. This assumes that the person the created the 
>> posting
>> on the site is unknown or not available to change it.
>>
>> It might expedite things if BOTH osgeo and rasdaman GmbH sent similar letters
>> making similar requests so the site gets confirmation from both parties and
>> does not need to worry if this is an attempt to "steal" the listing.
>>
>> -Steve W
>>
>> On 9/18/2015 10:28 AM, Michael Gerlek wrote:
>>> I agree: Peter’s issue doesn’t seem to be a Code of Conduct issue, it
>>> seems closer to a Code of Ethics issue — but even that’s not quite
>>> right. I think this is more properly a grievance to be taken up
>>> directly with the Board.
>>>
>>> Suggestion: the CoC team right want to consider a couple lines on the
>>> wiki page that (further) clarify the intent of the Code of Conduct,
>>> as opposed to the intent of a Code of Ethics [1][2]. The two are
>>> similar in their ultimate goals, but address different areas of our
>>> professional lives and activities [3].
>>>
>>> [1] https://www.acm.org/about/code-of-ethics [2]
>>> http://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html [3]
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_code
>>>
>>> -mpg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
 On Sep 17, 2015, at 5:17 PM, Camille Acey 
 wrote:

 I am having a hard time seeing how this is a CoC matter. Camille

 On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Jeff McKenna
  wrote: Hi Peter,

 It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to
 understand your full issue.  Can you please explain here to
 everyone what you mean by "I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman
 at some time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far
 as I know, rasdaman is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having
 been at the OSGeo booth here most of this week I have spoken to
 many people coming to the booth about rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I
 am in the total dark here, maybe you could explain more to
 everyone, as I sense that you are upset.

 Thanks,

 -jeff




 On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote: Hello community,

 here is another real case that I would like to raise.

 rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner
 rasdaman GmbH set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has
 claimed rasdaman at some time in the past.

 To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5
 years now [2], and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation
 requiring this and that extra documentation.

 I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of
 professional ethics and request to immediately "give back" the
 project as a remedial action. I could do it myself, but recently
 OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to which, as blog
 comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to bring this
 sacrifice.

 Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose
 identity publicly following suggested practice.

 Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC
 Committee (or whoever is in charge).

 Thanks, Peter

 [0] http://www.rasdaman.org [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
 [2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo

 PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules
 to prevent such a case in future.



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Jeff McKenna]

Peter,

If you are unable to explain your conduct issue in detail (since you 
mention the issue is one single person), you can take this to the Code 
of Conduct Committee (possibly privately at 
coc-private-ow...@lists.osgeo.org or publicly at 
http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coc-discuss).  They 
exist now for issues of conduct.


I do hope that you contact the person directly as well, and talk, it may 
help for that person to understand the violation (since I cannot 
understand it from your discuss message).


-jeff





On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:

Hello community,

here is another real case that I would like to raise.

rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner rasdaman GmbH
set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at some
time in the past.

To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5 years now [2],
and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation requiring this and that extra
documentation.

I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of professional ethics
and request to immediately "give back" the project as a remedial action. I could
do it myself, but recently OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to
which, as blog comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to bring
this sacrifice.

Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose identity
publicly following suggested practice.

Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC Committee (or
whoever is in charge).

Thanks,
Peter

[0] http://www.rasdaman.org
[1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
[2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo

PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules to prevent
such a case in future.



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Jeff McKenna]

Hi Peter,

It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to 
understand your full issue.  Can you please explain here to everyone 
what you mean by "I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at some
time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far as I know, 
rasdaman is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having been at the 
OSGeo booth here most of this week I have spoken to many people coming 
to the booth about rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I am in the total dark 
here, maybe you could explain more to everyone, as I sense that you are 
upset.


Thanks,

-jeff



On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:

Hello community,

here is another real case that I would like to raise.

rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner rasdaman GmbH
set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at some
time in the past.

To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5 years now [2],
and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation requiring this and that extra
documentation.

I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of professional ethics
and request to immediately "give back" the project as a remedial action. I could
do it myself, but recently OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to
which, as blog comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to bring
this sacrifice.

Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose identity
publicly following suggested practice.

Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC Committee (or
whoever is in charge).

Thanks,
Peter

[0] http://www.rasdaman.org
[1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
[2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo

PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules to prevent
such a case in future.




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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Cameron Shorter]

Hi Peter,
I think your request to have ownership of Rasdaman "corrected" to be 
owned by GmbH is reasonable, especially since the license of code I 
assume shows reference to GmbH? I also assume this could be confirmed if 
someone were to check the lineage of code commits?


I'd hope that this can be resolved without needing to refer to the CoC 
Committee, which would typically deal with cases such as personal 
slander. I realise that Jeff suggested this committee, but he also 
suggested providing more information - which would be required should 
this be a CoC issue.


I'd be inclined to suspect this issue could be resolved easily? I'd also 
suspect that this is an accident rather than foul play by someone? At 
the very least, we should assume innocence until proven guilty of any 
person involved.


With regards to reference to incubation of rasdaman. Last correspondence 
on this matter [1] has been that the incubation committee members have 
provided feedback and actions to address before rasdaman is ready to be 
incubated. We are waiting for such actions to be complete.


[1] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/incubator/2015-April/002695.html

On 18/09/2015 2:21 am, Peter Baumann wrote:

Hello community,

here is another real case that I would like to raise.

rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner rasdaman GmbH
set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at some
time in the past.

To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5 years now [2],
and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation requiring this and that extra
documentation.

I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of professional ethics
and request to immediately "give back" the project as a remedial action. I could
do it myself, but recently OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered to
which, as blog comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to bring
this sacrifice.

Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose identity
publicly following suggested practice.

Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC Committee (or
whoever is in charge).

Thanks,
Peter

[0] http://www.rasdaman.org
[1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
[2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo

PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules to prevent
such a case in future.



--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] code of conduct: another real case

[Camille Acey]

I am having a hard time seeing how this is a CoC matter.
Camille

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Jeff McKenna  wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> It may be early here at FOSS4G-Seoul, but I am finding it hard to
> understand your full issue.  Can you please explain here to everyone what
> you mean by "I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at some
> time in the past".  Claimed how/where/in what way?  As far as I know,
> rasdaman is an OSGeo Project in Incubation, and, having been at the OSGeo
> booth here most of this week I have spoken to many people coming to the
> booth about rasdaman.  So, pardon me if I am in the total dark here, maybe
> you could explain more to everyone, as I sense that you are upset.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -jeff
>
>
>
>
> On 2015-09-18 1:21 AM, Peter Baumann wrote:
>
>> Hello community,
>>
>> here is another real case that I would like to raise.
>>
>> rasdaman [0] is listed on OpenHub [1], like many of us, with owner
>> rasdaman GmbH
>> set originally. By coincidence I found that OSGeo has claimed rasdaman at
>> some
>> time in the past.
>>
>> To my total surprise, as rasdaman is in incubation since about 5 years
>> now [2],
>> and since quite some time OSGeo refuses graduation requiring this and
>> that extra
>> documentation.
>>
>> I find this undercover misappropriation a gross violation of professional
>> ethics
>> and request to immediately "give back" the project as a remedial action.
>> I could
>> do it myself, but recently OpenHub requires a phone number to be entered
>> to
>> which, as blog comments show, spam will get sent. IMO it is on OSGeo to
>> bring
>> this sacrifice.
>>
>> Actually, I know who has "stolen ownership", but will not disclose
>> identity
>> publicly following suggested practice.
>>
>> Rather, I am seeking contact to and investigation by the CoC Committee (or
>> whoever is in charge).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
>>
>> [0] http://www.rasdaman.org
>> [1] https://www.openhub.net/p/rasdaman
>> [2] http://rasdaman.org/wiki/OSGeo
>>
>> PS: On the side, this IMHO justifies an amendment of the CoC rules to
>> prevent
>> such a case in future.
>>
>>
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Sanghee Shin]

Dear All, 

I’d like to report updates on our discussion. 

1. Regarding CoC offline discussion at FOSS4G Seoul, we may have discussion at 
BOF meeting[0]. I believe Jeff already marked the timeslot there on 16th 
September. If you need more timeslots, just add to the BOF wiki please. Also if 
you want have any BOF meeting during FOSS4G Seoul, please add your plan to the 
wiki page. 

2. I removed my controversial(?) presentation from the main page. I think it 
was too outdated and  not so attractive. It’s now time to promote through 
FOSS4G Seoul program itself. You may see new main page there[1]. 

Your attending and participation is very crucial to the success of FOSS4G 
Seoul. Please register FOSS4G 
Seoul(http://2015.foss4g.org/attending/registration/ 
http://2015.foss4g.org/attending/registration/) and meet up in Seoul 
altogether!!

All the best, 

Sanghee

[0]http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2015_BirdsOfAFeather 
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2015_BirdsOfAFeather
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org/ http://2015.foss4g.org/
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



 2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:34, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com 작성:
 
 Dear All, 
 
 Thank you for all your great opinions, advices and inputs through this 
 mailing lists and through to my private mail. I think we’ve discussed enough 
 on this. 
 
 I agree with Maria and Maxi’s suggestion to have a offline discussion time in 
 Seoul. I’ll explore the possibility whether we can have that spaces 
 before/during/after FOSS4G Seoul and will report to you. 
 
 And I also agree with some advices that because my presentation was highly 
 dependent on verbal explanation, it not so effective itself to deliver my 
 clear intention. I’ll think about how to handle this. 
 
 Thanks again for great and wonderful inputs. 
 
 How about having a break for while?
 
 All the best, 
 
 Sanghee
 ---
 Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
 Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
 http://2015.foss4g.org http://2015.foss4g.org/
 Twitter: @foss4g
 Facebook: FOSS4G2015
 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org mailto:foss4gch...@osgeo.org
 
 
 
 2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:22, Massimiliano Cannata massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch 
 mailto:massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch 작성:
 
 Once again I express my opinion:
 I think that OSGeo shall express and support a CoC that is respecting 
 diversity in any form, but we don not have the right to censure anything.
 
 If something really bad happens than someone will take action based on the 
 agreed CoC.
 Do we really want to argue about the images and content of anyone 
 presentation? 
 
 The community is the best referee of the conduct of its members not a bunch 
 of people deciding what is good or not.
 
 And YES, we can discuss it in Seoul to find a way to rise attention to the 
 CoC and discuss more (but friendly and with respect of diversity  ;-) )
 
 
 Maxi
 
 
 
 2015-06-25 10:07 GMT+02:00 Pat Tressel ptres...@myuw.net 
 mailto:ptres...@myuw.net:
 I hesitate to step into the sexism in tech debate, but...  There may be 
 some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant -- some 
 specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated, so 
 rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you search 
 queries that will bring them up:
 
 PyCon donglegate
 TechCrunch sexism
 Pax Dickenson brogrammer
 GamerGate
 
 Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a more 
 general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I expect that 
 these will get the that's just PC objection, but are threats of rape and 
 murder really just for fun?  And if the objection is that women just just 
 force their way into tech, I have two words for you:  hiring manager.  And 
 no, not all of us have the resources to start our own companies.  Venture 
 funding is rarely offered to women.
 
 When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) 
 in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries and 
 support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude, which 
 one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998 (sold to 
 Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks.  The switch to 
 deliberately provoking competition and infighting between employees, via 
 stack ranking and similar management fads, is exacerbating the rise of 
 sexism in tech -- there is now an aspect of us against them.  Because 
 employment is a zero-sum game, (re)entry of women in tech would mean fewer 
 positions and less money for men.  (Competing against other men doesn't 
 trigger the same level of response since men are already in the pool -- it's 
 the thought of the pool *doubling* that is causing this fear.)  Since this 
 style of management (stemming from Jack Welch) is taught in 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Ravi Kumar]

Slide 6, may be removed and so is slide 20 (the girls group). Those
interested can always see them on the web. Slide 20 betrays a notion of
enticement, at a FOSS4G conference. This is strictly my personal opinion.
There are many good inviting slides to entice taste-buds.


On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote:

 Dear All,

 It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

 I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you
 should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G
 Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6
 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those
 controversial ones.

 I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation
 breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

 However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides
 from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss
 this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

 I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from
 all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well,
 because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

 I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s
 opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn
 how to apply CoC in real cases.

 *Sidenote for defending myself:
 - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
 “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
 - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
 Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of
 Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

 All the best,

 Sanghee

 [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
 [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
 [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
 ---
 Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
 Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
 http://2015.foss4g.org
 Twitter: @foss4g
 Facebook: FOSS4G2015
 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pat Tressel]

The conversation has gone on to the question of diversity in STEM fields,
but if I can return to the original presentation for a moment...

Perhaps we could look at it from a different perspective, namely, that of
marketing and branding.  Is this an effective advertisement?  Does it
accomplish the intended purpose?  (Full disclosure:  I'm not a
professional, though I have worked for an advertising placement company.  I
am, however, very much a fan of good advertising and follow industry news.)

Let's say we don't know what the purpose is.  What can we extract from the
presentation itself?  The majority of the presentation is selling other
reasons to attend FOSS4G 2015 besides the content of the conference
itself.  A significant portion advertises travel to Seoul, and includes
traditional travel themes -- culture, entertainment, food, sights.  Another
has the feeling of a business development promotion.  Another portion
emphasizes interaction with other attendees, and especially fun interaction.

What can we infer about the intended audience?  With the exception of the
three elements discussed in this thread, the presentation appears neutral.
The Dali image, Girls' Generation, and multiple images of alcoholic
beverages are elements that would appear intended to appeal to a specific
demographic, unmarried men below middle-age.  (Girls Generation is a group
assembled by SM Entertainment, whose founder says the group is intended to
appeal to men aged 30-40.  However, they now have a significant female fan
base in Japan.)

Next, how effective is it?  The presentation does not appear intended to
stand on its own.  I'm assuming that these slides were used with a verbal
presentation?  For instance, as others have noted, the meaning of the Dali
image sequence is obscure -- it does not work without explanation.  To make
it work without a verbal pitch, ask, for each section, does the lead-in
slide adequately establish what is being promoted in that section?  And for
each slide, ask, does this need a better caption?

Given that this is promoting attendance based on things that are not part
of the conference itself, it would be good to make that explicit right in
the first slide.  If it's intended to also promote the conference program,
that might work better as a separate presentation, rather than trying to
glue it onto this one.

If the three elements in question would be off-putting to some potential
attendees, it would be easy to replace at least the Dali image and the beer
images.  Note in a professional advertising campaign, the question would
not be, can we get away with this? but rather, is it possible that this
will turn away potential customers in our intended demographic, or could
this in any way diminish our brand or cause a negative reaction?  So *if*
the question of offense comes up at all, then that would trigger fixing
that part of the advertisement.

I gather the point of the Dali sequence is to say that something can appear
as one thing from afar, and otherwise close up.  Perhaps use a photo mosaic
image instead?  (These are images constructed of many small images.)  The
beer images are jarring not so much because they feature alcohol, but
because there are so many of them -- they are out of proportion to any
other type of image.  I'd recommend dropping slides 37-41 and keeping only
42 (which is a better image than 41).  Similarly, for the food images (the
second longest sequence), instead of multiple slides, tile them into one
slide.

The Girls Generation picture is more problematic, because they are a
legitimate and popular group.  Two things were jarring to me.  First, that
was the *only* culture image.  There are other aspects to Seoul culture
besides K-pop.  A montage of several images showing a range of cultural
aspects would de-emphasize the sex aspect.  Second, with the exception of
the Dali image, the appearance of a sexy image was unexpected.  Note that
part of the problem is that not many people outside of Asia will recognize
Girls Generation -- they will just see young women in provocative dress and
poses.  (For contrast, ~everyone on the planet would recognize Psy.)

Finally, please don't be offended, but, it would also be good to get advice
from a graphic designer, and also have someone proofread the text.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pat Tressel]

I hesitate to step into the sexism in tech debate, but...  There may be
some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant -- some
specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated, so
rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you
search queries that will bring them up:

PyCon donglegate
TechCrunch sexism
Pax Dickenson brogrammer
GamerGate

Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a more
general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I expect that
these will get the that's just PC objection, but are threats of rape and
murder really just for fun?  And if the objection is that women just just
force their way into tech, I have two words for you:  hiring manager.  And
no, not all of us have the resources to start our own companies.  Venture
funding is rarely offered to women.

When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation
(DEC) in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries
and support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude,
which one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998
(sold to Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks.  The
switch to deliberately provoking competition and infighting between
employees, via stack ranking and similar management fads, is exacerbating
the rise of sexism in tech -- there is now an aspect of us against them.
Because employment is a zero-sum game, (re)entry of women in tech would
mean fewer positions and less money for men.  (Competing against other men
doesn't trigger the same level of response since men are already in the
pool -- it's the thought of the pool *doubling* that is causing this
fear.)  Since this style of management (stemming from Jack Welch) is taught
in b-schools, it will take some time to turn the ship around.  But there
are some signs of light:  Microsoft recently cancelled stack ranking, and
is making a significant effort to reestablish teamwork and cooperation.
That took being publicly shamed (see the article in Vanity Fair, titled ~
How Stack Ranking Killed Innovation at Microsoft) and a new CEO (Satya
Nadella, replacing Steve Ballmer).

There's also plain old bias.  This research by Google HR is fascinating:
https://www.gv.com/lib/unconscious-bias-at-work
Watch especially where ~ the entire audience, men and women both, fails the
test, right there on camera...
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Jachym Cepicky]

Hi,

even the discussion seems to calm down already (or maybe because of that),
I would like to leave some notes as well:

Yes, I make jokes about everything, even serious stuff. It's my way, how to
deal with difficult topics, where is no single clear answer or the
everything seems to be screwed - joke (even bad joke) is my way how to get
over things.

Application of CoC is difficult topic (and we have been warned about this
at our Board meeting and everybody knew, application policy will have to be
defined), this long e-mail thread should help to us to define our CoC
policy.

Just would like to point out, that only because of the thread, my attention
was brought to Salvator's Dali paintings (I did not know this one), and the
the Korean Band, which certainly is not my cup of tee, but I was definitely
positively influenced by !two! different cultures, just because of that -
thanks to OSGeo community.

It might be not a big thing, but exactly thanks to our openness and
diversity, such cultural exchange is possible and this is why I love this
community and why I'm looking forward to go the Seoul - it will be cultural
shock for me, and will give me other perspective on my place and culture,
as well as visiting Portland did (and believe me, it did a lot). People
used to say, that during communism,  no official censorship was really
needed, because heavy self-censorship was applied by everybody. Therefore
careful approach is needed - on both sides of the community. Therefore I
would like you all to ask to continue talking and clarifying things - it's
nothing everlasting, it's a process. Try to distinguish between I do not
like it, from my friend does not like it and everybody will not like
it and in my country, nobody likes it. Please try to listen too, not
just hammer your truth. Just because you are loud, does not mean, you are
right (speaking not to Andy here, this is my message to the community).

Heaving said that and (personally) I do tend to agree more with what Peter
Baumann is writing (maybe better said: I understand what he is trying to
express using such limited communication method, as an e-mail, seems we
have similar life experience in this topic), we can not forget one thing:
OSGeo is U.S. based NGO, therefore certain rules and cultural aspects
common in U.S. should be considered with great care on the global level
IMHO. I do not say, I like it unconditionaly.

Discussion could start in Como already, but we miss one important aspect
there (!probably!) wider community from really different part of the world.
Or do we have numbers, how many non-Europe based attendees will come?

Jachym

st 24. 6. 2015 v 19:17 odesílatel Andy Anderson aander...@amherst.edu
napsal:

  Ah! Anecdotes! Let me provide one from my personal experience that’s more
 relevant. A female friend of mine attending a school *was* offended by the
 gratuitous insertion of nude pictures in a slide presentation in one of her
 classes. That school was soon thereafter subjected to an investigation for
 sexual harassment by the Office of Civil Rights of the US Department of
 Education, followed by a resolution agreement.



 Anecdotal cases aside, in the West these sorts of things are generally
 known to be offensive to many, many women *in the wrong context.* The
 right context would certainly include art museums and art classes. But at a
 GIS conference? Generally speaking, I think potentially offensive items
 must not only be *germane* but *necessary*, and if they aren’t presenters
 should consider alternatives, especially if they are presenting on behalf
 of a larger organization.

  So while the Dali portrait may be germane, I don’t see it as in any way
 necessary. Sanghee writes “I just used that image to stress the importance
 of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced
 ordinary culture.” But there are many, many other images that could be used
 instead to emphasize the same thing; they’re all over the place (see, e.g.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElUS201fM8 or
 https://www.vat19.com/item/abraham-lincoln-penny-portrait — you could
 even make your own, with a geographic basis).

  Regarding the girl-group picture, Sanghee writes “I believe as symbolic
 icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia” — again
 possibly germane to this point, and perhaps by far the best representation
 and therefore necessary, but I have never heard of them and the point would
 be lost on me. A photo of a bowl of kimchi would be more effective in my
 case :-)

  At the very least, I agree with Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses when he writes
 “May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
 suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.” Looks like it
 was a presentation for the 2014 meeting in Bangkok, where I assume the
 context was verbalized, but the Web is a different medium. On general
 principles of effectiveness, I’d recommend putting the context directly
 into the slides. 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Peter Baumann]

wise words, will do so :)
-Peter


On 06/25/15 10:34, Sanghee Shin wrote:
 Dear All, 

 Thank you for all your great opinions, advices and inputs through this mailing
 lists and through to my private mail. I think we’ve discussed enough on this. 

 I agree with Maria and Maxi’s suggestion to have a offline discussion time in
 Seoul. I’ll explore the possibility whether we can have that spaces
 before/during/after FOSS4G Seoul and will report to you. 

 And I also agree with some advices that because my presentation was highly
 dependent on verbal explanation, it not so effective itself to deliver my
 clear intention. I’ll think about how to handle this. 

 Thanks again for great and wonderful inputs. 

 How about having a break for while?

 All the best, 

 Sanghee
 ---
 Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
 Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
 http://2015.foss4g.org
 Twitter: @foss4g
 Facebook: FOSS4G2015
 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org mailto:foss4gch...@osgeo.org



 2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:22, Massimiliano Cannata massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch
 mailto:massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch 작성:

 Once again I express my opinion:
 I think that OSGeo shall express and support a CoC that is respecting
 diversity in any form, but we don not have the right to censure anything.

 If something really bad happens than someone will take action based on the
 agreed CoC.
 Do we really want to argue about the images and content of anyone 
 presentation? 

 The community is the best referee of the conduct of its members not a bunch
 of people deciding what is good or not.

 And YES, we can discuss it in Seoul to find a way to rise attention to the
 CoC and discuss more (but friendly and with respect of diversity  ;-) )


 Maxi



 2015-06-25 10:07 GMT+02:00 Pat Tressel ptres...@myuw.net
 mailto:ptres...@myuw.net:

 I hesitate to step into the sexism in tech debate, but...  There may be
 some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant --
 some specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated,
 so rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you
 search queries that will bring them up:

 PyCon donglegate
 TechCrunch sexism
 Pax Dickenson brogrammer
 GamerGate

 Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a
 more general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I
 expect that these will get the that's just PC objection, but are
 threats of rape and murder really just for fun?  And if the objection
 is that women just just force their way into tech, I have two words for
 you:  hiring manager.  And no, not all of us have the resources to start
 our own companies.  Venture funding is rarely offered to women.

 When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation
 (DEC) in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries
 and support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude,
 which one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998
 (sold to Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks. 
 The switch to deliberately provoking competition and infighting between
 employees, via stack ranking and similar management fads, is exacerbating
 the rise of sexism in tech -- there is now an aspect of us against
 them.  Because employment is a zero-sum game, (re)entry of women in tech
 would mean fewer positions and less money for men.  (Competing against
 other men doesn't trigger the same level of response since men are
 already in the pool -- it's the thought of the pool *doubling* that is
 causing this fear.)  Since this style of management (stemming from Jack
 Welch) is taught in b-schools, it will take some time to turn the ship
 around.  But there are some signs of light:  Microsoft recently cancelled
 stack ranking, and is making a significant effort to reestablish teamwork
 and cooperation.  That took being publicly shamed (see the article in
 Vanity Fair, titled ~ How Stack Ranking Killed Innovation at Microsoft)
 and a new CEO (Satya Nadella, replacing Steve Ballmer).

 There's also plain old bias.  This research by Google HR is fascinating:
 https://www.gv.com/lib/unconscious-bias-at-work
 Watch especially where ~ the entire audience, men and women both, fails
 the test, right there on camera...


 ___
 Discuss mailing list
 Discuss@lists.osgeo.org mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
 http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss




 -- 
 *Massimiliano Cannata*
 Professore SUPSI in ingegneria Geomatica
 Responsabile settore Geomatica

 Istituto scienze della Terra
 Dipartimento ambiente costruzione e design
 Scuola universitaria professionale della Svizzera italiana
 Campus Trevano, CH - 6952 Canobbio

 Tel. +41 (0)58 666 62 14
 Fax +41 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pat Tressel]

Peter --

I'm trying to improve the presentation.  Ok?  Thanks.

 The conversation has gone on to the question of diversity in STEM fields,
 but if I can return to the original presentation for a moment...

 Perhaps we could look at it from a different perspective, namely, that of
 marketing and branding.  Is this an effective advertisement?  Does it
 accomplish the intended purpose?  (Full disclosure:  I'm not a
 professional, though I have worked for an advertising placement company.  I
 am, however, very much a fan of good advertising and follow industry news.)

 Let's say we don't know what the purpose is.  What can we extract from the
 presentation itself?  The majority of the presentation is selling other
 reasons to attend FOSS4G 2015 besides the content of the conference
 itself.  A significant portion advertises travel to Seoul, and includes
 traditional travel themes -- culture, entertainment, food, sights.  Another
 has the feeling of a business development promotion.  Another portion
 emphasizes interaction with other attendees, and especially fun interaction.

 What can we infer about the intended audience?  With the exception of the
 three elements discussed in this thread, the presentation appears neutral.
 The Dali image, Girls' Generation, and multiple images of alcoholic
 beverages are elements that would appear intended to appeal to a specific
 demographic, unmarried men below middle-age.


 no, plainly wrong.


?  Proof?


  (Girls Generation is a group assembled by SM Entertainment, whose
 founder says the group is intended to appeal to men aged 30-40.


 this is not something to generalize to art and beer (combination
 tentative).


There was no generalization.  This statement is a fact.  A web search will
turn up the quote.


  However, they now have a significant female fan base in Japan.)


 so statement above proven wrong.


No.  Statement of intended audience is simply a fact.  That was the goal of
assembling the group.  The reason they have a fan base of young girls in
Japan is problematic and to some, disturbing:  This may be the limit of
what these girls aspire to, because it is an occupation allowed to women.



 Next, how effective is it?  The presentation does not appear intended to
 stand on its own.  I'm assuming that these slides were used with a verbal
 presentation?  For instance, as others have noted, the meaning of the Dali
 image sequence is obscure -- it does not work without explanation.  To make
 it work without a verbal pitch, ask, for each section, does the lead-in
 slide adequately establish what is being promoted in that section?  And for
 each slide, ask, does this need a better caption?

 Given that this is promoting attendance based on things that are not part
 of the conference itself, it would be good to make that explicit right in
 the first slide.  If it's intended to also promote the conference program,
 that might work better as a separate presentation, rather than trying to
 glue it onto this one.

 If the three elements in question would be off-putting to some potential
 attendees, it would be easy to replace at least the Dali image and the beer
 images.  Note in a professional advertising campaign, the question would
 not be, can we get away with this? but rather, is it possible that this
 will turn away potential customers in our intended demographic, or could
 this in any way diminish our brand or cause a negative reaction?  So *if*
 the question of offense comes up at all, then that would trigger fixing
 that part of the advertisement.

 I gather the point of the Dali sequence is to say that something can
 appear as one thing from afar, and otherwise close up.  Perhaps use a photo
 mosaic image instead?  (These are images constructed of many small
 images.)  The beer images are jarring not so much because they feature
 alcohol, but because there are so many of them -- they are out of
 proportion to any other type of image.  I'd recommend dropping slides 37-41
 and keeping only 42 (which is a better image than 41).  Similarly, for the
 food images (the second longest sequence), instead of multiple slides, tile
 them into one slide.


 see my recent post about Beckmesser.


 The Girls Generation picture is more problematic, because they are a
 legitimate and popular group.  Two things were jarring to me.  First, that
 was the *only* culture image.  There are other aspects to Seoul culture
 besides K-pop.  A montage of several images showing a range of cultural
 aspects would de-emphasize the sex aspect.  Second, with the exception of
 the Dali image, the appearance of a sexy image was unexpected.  Note that
 part of the problem is that not many people outside of Asia will recognize
 Girls Generation -- they will just see young women in provocative dress and
 poses.  (For contrast, ~everyone on the planet would recognize Psy.)

 Finally, please don't be offended, but, it would also be good to get
 advice from a graphic designer, and also have 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Massimiliano Cannata]

Once again I express my opinion:
I think that OSGeo shall express and support a CoC that is respecting
diversity in any form, but we don not have the right to censure anything.

If something really bad happens than someone will take action based on the
agreed CoC.
Do we really want to argue about the images and content of anyone
presentation?

The community is the best referee of the conduct of its members not a bunch
of people deciding what is good or not.

And YES, we can discuss it in Seoul to find a way to rise attention to the
CoC and discuss more (but friendly and with respect of diversity  ;-) )


Maxi



2015-06-25 10:07 GMT+02:00 Pat Tressel ptres...@myuw.net:

 I hesitate to step into the sexism in tech debate, but...  There may be
 some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant -- some
 specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated, so
 rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you
 search queries that will bring them up:

 PyCon donglegate
 TechCrunch sexism
 Pax Dickenson brogrammer
 GamerGate

 Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a more
 general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I expect that
 these will get the that's just PC objection, but are threats of rape and
 murder really just for fun?  And if the objection is that women just just
 force their way into tech, I have two words for you:  hiring manager.  And
 no, not all of us have the resources to start our own companies.  Venture
 funding is rarely offered to women.

 When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation
 (DEC) in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries
 and support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude,
 which one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998
 (sold to Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks.  The
 switch to deliberately provoking competition and infighting between
 employees, via stack ranking and similar management fads, is exacerbating
 the rise of sexism in tech -- there is now an aspect of us against them.
 Because employment is a zero-sum game, (re)entry of women in tech would
 mean fewer positions and less money for men.  (Competing against other men
 doesn't trigger the same level of response since men are already in the
 pool -- it's the thought of the pool *doubling* that is causing this
 fear.)  Since this style of management (stemming from Jack Welch) is taught
 in b-schools, it will take some time to turn the ship around.  But there
 are some signs of light:  Microsoft recently cancelled stack ranking, and
 is making a significant effort to reestablish teamwork and cooperation.
 That took being publicly shamed (see the article in Vanity Fair, titled ~
 How Stack Ranking Killed Innovation at Microsoft) and a new CEO (Satya
 Nadella, replacing Steve Ballmer).

 There's also plain old bias.  This research by Google HR is fascinating:
 https://www.gv.com/lib/unconscious-bias-at-work
 Watch especially where ~ the entire audience, men and women both, fails
 the test, right there on camera...


 ___
 Discuss mailing list
 Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
 http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss




-- 
*Massimiliano Cannata*

Professore SUPSI in ingegneria Geomatica

Responsabile settore Geomatica


Istituto scienze della Terra

Dipartimento ambiente costruzione e design

Scuola universitaria professionale della Svizzera italiana

Campus Trevano, CH - 6952 Canobbio

Tel. +41 (0)58 666 62 14

Fax +41 (0)58 666 62 09

massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch

*www.supsi.ch/ist http://www.supsi.ch/ist*
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pat Tressel]

People aren't seeing the irony in telling us not to discuss the
presentation, while at the same time decrying censorship...  ;-)
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Peter Baumann]

although I try to force myself to focus on productive tasks I just have to
briefly respond.

On 06/24/15 18:46, Andy Anderson wrote:
 Ah! Anecdotes! Let me provide one from my personal experience that’s more
 relevant. A female friend of mine attending a school *was* offended by the
 gratuitous insertion of nude pictures in a slide presentation in one of her
 classes. That school was soon thereafter subjected to an investigation for
 sexual harassment by the Office of Civil Rights of the US Department of
 Education, followed by a resolution agreement. 

indeed, I have heard about such cases, mainly in the central US I believe. Such
kind of institutionalized censorship and political correctness unfortunately
is happening again and again - we've had that with McCarthy in the US, Stalin in
Russia, and I am sure we find legions of cases where, justified by some
doctrine, a few people abused their power to indoctrinate the rest.

Further, let me emphasize the diversity aspect. Different cultures have
different views. Nudity was common in ancient Greece on the one hand. On the
other hand, Western women tend to dress in a way (with tank tops and what was
once called hot pants) which is outrageously offensive to some cultures. So I
(or some Oriental person, for that matter) might well approach a woman at a next
FOSS4G and ask her to come in long pants, or otherwise ask the committee to
expel her. Fully concordant with discussion here. Do we want that?

I sense that this thread is always about enforcement of some rules based on
Western (often meaning: US) concepts. Frequently, there seems to be a naive
assumption of my rules are right. Who states what is right and wrong, and
based on what justification? I just fail to see a _common_ sense in these
matters. Doomed to fail.



 Anecdotal cases aside, in the West these sorts of things are generally known
 to be offensive to many, many women /in the wrong context./ The right context
 would certainly include art museums and art classes. But at a GIS conference?
 Generally speaking, I think potentially offensive items must not only be
 /germane/ but /necessary/, and if they aren’t presenters should consider
 alternatives, especially if they are presenting on behalf of a larger
 organization.

 So while the Dali portrait may be germane, I don’t see it as in any way
 necessary. Sanghee writes “I just used that image to stress the importance of
 long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary
 culture.” But there are many, many other images that could be used instead to
 emphasize the same thing; they’re all over the place (see, e.g.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElUS201fM8 or
 https://www.vat19.com/item/abraham-lincoln-penny-portrait — you could even
 make your own, with a geographic basis).

Science (and good talks!) live from thinking the unanticipated, not so obvious,
from putting things into a new context. Ideologic constraints always have been
harmful to science and art. I am sure under the regime proposed many of our most
famous artwork would not have occurred - Venus by Milo, for example.


 Regarding the girl-group picture, Sanghee writes “I believe as symbolic icon
 of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia” — again possibly
 germane to this point, and perhaps by far the best representation and
 therefore necessary, but I have never heard of them and the point would be
 lost on me. A photo of a bowl of kimchi would be more effective in my case :-)

Hm, so because a North American has not heard about a group famous in Korea it
should not be mentioned in a talk given by a Korean about Korea?

Do we have an issue of Diversity here?


 At the very least, I agree with Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses when he writes “May
 be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more suitable for
 being in the landing page of the Conference.” Looks like it was a presentation
 for the 2014 meeting in Bangkok, where I assume the context was verbalized,
 but the Web is a different medium. On general principles of effectiveness, I’d
 recommend putting the context directly into the slides. Otherwise their
 inclusion does seem gratuitous.

Freedom of speech?

The Master-Singers of Nuremberg) is a German music drama first performed 1868.
Part of it plays during the guild's song contest. Walther, an external
contestant, launches into a novel free-form tune, breaking all the
mastersingers' rules, and his song is constantly interrupted by the scratch of
Beckmesser's chalk on his chalkboard, maliciously noting one violation after
another. (Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Meistersinger_von_N%C3%BCrnberg)

Since that time, beckmesserish is used in German as a synonym for judging
solely on abstract rules, without understanding of the matter as such. On this
occasion I found the English synonym carping.

-Peter



 — Andy

 On Jun 24, 2015, at 10:19 AM, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net
 mailto:m...@dogodigi.net wrote:

 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Peter Baumann]

On 06/25/15 09:26, Pat Tressel wrote:
 The conversation has gone on to the question of diversity in STEM fields, but
 if I can return to the original presentation for a moment...

 Perhaps we could look at it from a different perspective, namely, that of
 marketing and branding.  Is this an effective advertisement?  Does it
 accomplish the intended purpose?  (Full disclosure:  I'm not a professional,
 though I have worked for an advertising placement company.  I am, however,
 very much a fan of good advertising and follow industry news.)

 Let's say we don't know what the purpose is.  What can we extract from the
 presentation itself?  The majority of the presentation is selling other
 reasons to attend FOSS4G 2015 besides the content of the conference itself. 
 A significant portion advertises travel to Seoul, and includes traditional
 travel themes -- culture, entertainment, food, sights.  Another has the
 feeling of a business development promotion.  Another portion emphasizes
 interaction with other attendees, and especially fun interaction.

 What can we infer about the intended audience?  With the exception of the
 three elements discussed in this thread, the presentation appears neutral. 
 The Dali image, Girls' Generation, and multiple images of alcoholic beverages
 are elements that would appear intended to appeal to a specific demographic,
 unmarried men below middle-age. 

no, plainly wrong.

 (Girls Generation is a group assembled by SM Entertainment, whose founder says
 the group is intended to appeal to men aged 30-40. 

this is not something to generalize to art and beer (combination tentative).

 However, they now have a significant female fan base in Japan.)

so statement above proven wrong.


 Next, how effective is it?  The presentation does not appear intended to stand
 on its own.  I'm assuming that these slides were used with a verbal
 presentation?  For instance, as others have noted, the meaning of the Dali
 image sequence is obscure -- it does not work without explanation.  To make it
 work without a verbal pitch, ask, for each section, does the lead-in slide
 adequately establish what is being promoted in that section?  And for each
 slide, ask, does this need a better caption?

 Given that this is promoting attendance based on things that are not part of
 the conference itself, it would be good to make that explicit right in the
 first slide.  If it's intended to also promote the conference program, that
 might work better as a separate presentation, rather than trying to glue it
 onto this one.

 If the three elements in question would be off-putting to some potential
 attendees, it would be easy to replace at least the Dali image and the beer
 images.  Note in a professional advertising campaign, the question would not
 be, can we get away with this? but rather, is it possible that this will turn
 away potential customers in our intended demographic, or could this in any way
 diminish our brand or cause a negative reaction?  So *if* the question of
 offense comes up at all, then that would trigger fixing that part of the
 advertisement.

 I gather the point of the Dali sequence is to say that something can appear as
 one thing from afar, and otherwise close up.  Perhaps use a photo mosaic image
 instead?  (These are images constructed of many small images.)  The beer
 images are jarring not so much because they feature alcohol, but because there
 are so many of them -- they are out of proportion to any other type of image. 
 I'd recommend dropping slides 37-41 and keeping only 42 (which is a better
 image than 41).  Similarly, for the food images (the second longest sequence),
 instead of multiple slides, tile them into one slide.

see my recent post about Beckmesser.


 The Girls Generation picture is more problematic, because they are a
 legitimate and popular group.  Two things were jarring to me.  First, that was
 the *only* culture image.  There are other aspects to Seoul culture besides
 K-pop.  A montage of several images showing a range of cultural aspects would
 de-emphasize the sex aspect.  Second, with the exception of the Dali image,
 the appearance of a sexy image was unexpected.  Note that part of the
 problem is that not many people outside of Asia will recognize Girls
 Generation -- they will just see young women in provocative dress and poses. 
 (For contrast, ~everyone on the planet would recognize Psy.)

 Finally, please don't be offended, but, it would also be good to get advice
 from a graphic designer, and also have someone proofread the text.

diversity - can we accept that non-English-natives have typos on their slides?

Let me suggest to establish an OSGeo Committee of Censorship (CoC) to formalize
all the criticism.

-Peter





 ___
 Discuss mailing list
 Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
 http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

-- 
Dr. Peter Baumann
 - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Sanghee Shin]

Dear All, 

Thank you for all your great opinions, advices and inputs through this mailing 
lists and through to my private mail. I think we’ve discussed enough on this. 

I agree with Maria and Maxi’s suggestion to have a offline discussion time in 
Seoul. I’ll explore the possibility whether we can have that spaces 
before/during/after FOSS4G Seoul and will report to you. 

And I also agree with some advices that because my presentation was highly 
dependent on verbal explanation, it not so effective itself to deliver my clear 
intention. I’ll think about how to handle this. 

Thanks again for great and wonderful inputs. 

How about having a break for while?

All the best, 

Sanghee
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



 2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:22, Massimiliano Cannata massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch 
 작성:
 
 Once again I express my opinion:
 I think that OSGeo shall express and support a CoC that is respecting 
 diversity in any form, but we don not have the right to censure anything.
 
 If something really bad happens than someone will take action based on the 
 agreed CoC.
 Do we really want to argue about the images and content of anyone 
 presentation? 
 
 The community is the best referee of the conduct of its members not a bunch 
 of people deciding what is good or not.
 
 And YES, we can discuss it in Seoul to find a way to rise attention to the 
 CoC and discuss more (but friendly and with respect of diversity  ;-) )
 
 
 Maxi
 
 
 
 2015-06-25 10:07 GMT+02:00 Pat Tressel ptres...@myuw.net 
 mailto:ptres...@myuw.net:
 I hesitate to step into the sexism in tech debate, but...  There may be 
 some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant -- some 
 specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated, so 
 rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you search 
 queries that will bring them up:
 
 PyCon donglegate
 TechCrunch sexism
 Pax Dickenson brogrammer
 GamerGate
 
 Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a more 
 general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I expect that 
 these will get the that's just PC objection, but are threats of rape and 
 murder really just for fun?  And if the objection is that women just just 
 force their way into tech, I have two words for you:  hiring manager.  And 
 no, not all of us have the resources to start our own companies.  Venture 
 funding is rarely offered to women.
 
 When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) 
 in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries and 
 support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude, which 
 one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998 (sold to 
 Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks.  The switch to 
 deliberately provoking competition and infighting between employees, via 
 stack ranking and similar management fads, is exacerbating the rise of sexism 
 in tech -- there is now an aspect of us against them.  Because employment 
 is a zero-sum game, (re)entry of women in tech would mean fewer positions and 
 less money for men.  (Competing against other men doesn't trigger the same 
 level of response since men are already in the pool -- it's the thought of 
 the pool *doubling* that is causing this fear.)  Since this style of 
 management (stemming from Jack Welch) is taught in b-schools, it will take 
 some time to turn the ship around.  But there are some signs of light:  
 Microsoft recently cancelled stack ranking, and is making a significant 
 effort to reestablish teamwork and cooperation.  That took being publicly 
 shamed (see the article in Vanity Fair, titled ~ How Stack Ranking Killed 
 Innovation at Microsoft) and a new CEO (Satya Nadella, replacing Steve 
 Ballmer).
 
 There's also plain old bias.  This research by Google HR is fascinating:
 https://www.gv.com/lib/unconscious-bias-at-work 
 https://www.gv.com/lib/unconscious-bias-at-work
 Watch especially where ~ the entire audience, men and women both, fails the 
 test, right there on camera...
 
 
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 Discuss mailing list
 Discuss@lists.osgeo.org mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
 http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss 
 http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
 
 
 
 -- 
 Massimiliano Cannata
 Professore SUPSI in ingegneria Geomatica
 Responsabile settore Geomatica
 
 Istituto scienze della Terra
 Dipartimento ambiente costruzione e design
 Scuola universitaria professionale della Svizzera italiana
 Campus Trevano, CH - 6952 Canobbio
 
 Tel. +41 (0)58 666 62 14
 Fax +41 (0)58 666 62 09
 massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch mailto:massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch
 www.supsi.ch/ist 
 http://www.supsi.ch/ist___
 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses]

Hello Sanghee,

 I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you 
 should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G 
 Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 
 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those 
 controversial ones.

I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind

* Who asked to remove the slides?

* Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to you?

On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the
slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it
lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing.

May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.

But this is just my POV.

Best regards,
-- 
Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
Valencia (España)
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Jo Cook]

Hi Sanghee,

My personal opinion (as a female member of OSGeo) is that these slides are
certainly NOT offensive to women. From your description, they are being
used in context and there should be no problems with that.

Jo

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com wrote:

 Dear All,

 It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

 I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you
 should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G
 Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6
 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those
 controversial ones.

 I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation
 breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

 However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides
 from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss
 this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

 I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from
 all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well,
 because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

 I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s
 opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn
 how to apply CoC in real cases.

 *Sidenote for defending myself:
 - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
 “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
 - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
 Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of
 Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

 All the best,

 Sanghee

 [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
 [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
 [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
 ---
 Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
 Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
 http://2015.foss4g.org
 Twitter: @foss4g
 Facebook: FOSS4G2015
 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



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*Jo Cook*
Astun Technology Ltd, The Coach House, 17 West Street, Epsom, Surrey, KT18
7RL, UK
t:+44 7930 524 155
iShare - Data integration and publishing platform
http://www.isharemaps.com/

*

 Company registration no. 5410695. Registered in England and Wales.
Registered office: 120 Manor Green Road, Epsom, Surrey, KT19 8LN VAT no.
864201149.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses]

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Charles Schweik
cschw...@pubpol.umass.edu wrote:
 By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those
 slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think
 those kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and
 that perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have
 been in conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things
 happening on stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to
 this since we are hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G.

 From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't)
 why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more
 careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the
 first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second
 picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul is
 far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but perhaps
 that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might be turned
 off to the conference by that zoom-in.


Sorry for being to much direct on this.

A man, thinking as a man, thinking on what a woman, thinking as a
woman, could-possibly-may-be-in-some-case found something offensive.

May be I'm also a Wester-Europen-Liberal-Minded (as Gert-Jan stated)
but I don't get the point of someone in Massachusetts «patrolling» the
thoughts of other woman, and we're not even discussing here a cultural
difference, just a genre difference.

Sorry, again, but I don't get it.

-- 
Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
Valencia (España)
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Jeff McKenna]

I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community.  I want to point out
that having just a Code of Conduct, words, on a website is not enough,
there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this.  In bold
letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation
plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct.  This is not acceptable.  A few good
volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation
plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great,
but, it is still in discussion stage.  Without some sort of plan,
community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I
have no formal way to handle these reports.  (Sanghee was nice enough to
help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply
to all reports)

I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code
of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed
from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity
statement.

I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to
move forward, or not at all.

-jeff


-- 
Jeff McKenna
President, OSGeo
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna




On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:
 Dear All,
 
 It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
 
 I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you 
 should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G 
 Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 
 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those 
 controversial ones.
 
 I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation 
 breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
 
 However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides 
 from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this 
 issue more openly to reach conclusions.
 
 I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all 
 around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because 
 this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
 
 I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s 
 opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn 
 how to apply CoC in real cases.
 
 *Sidenote for defending myself:
 - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln 
 in Dalivision”[2]
 - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], 
 which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) 
 in/around Asia.
 
 All the best,
 
 Sanghee
 
 [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
 [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
 [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
 ---
 Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
 Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
 http://2015.foss4g.org
 Twitter: @foss4g
 Facebook: FOSS4G2015
 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
 
 
 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Margherita Di Leo]

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net
wrote:

 Hi Sanghee,

 Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first
 reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is
 well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any
 offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after
 looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my
 opinion.

 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want
 to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the
 presentation.

 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row of
 female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I
 interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful women and I
 believe that is not the message you want to send under the header Culture.

 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic
 drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There are a lot
 of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again,
 would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

 Final thought:

 I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should
 also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds
 a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make
 your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an
 interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!


 looking at the presentation, I got exactly the same feeling as expressed
so well by Milo. Personally, I don't feel offended by this presentation as
a woman. However, due probably to my limitations, I don't get the messages
that you (Sanghee) meant to deliver, otherwise than the one expressed by
Milo. I support the idea that, due to the prominent placing of your
presentation, it is extremely important that the message conveyed is agreed
upon by the majority of the community, because somehow it does represent
not only your personal view, but the shared view of the community.
re to Jeroen: I don't think that the CoC itself caused the rising of this
issue, on the contrary, it formalized a statement of how the majority of
the community thinks it is right to behave... I think it is there to help,
not to create problems..

just my 2 cents



-- 
Best regards,

Dr. Margherita DI LEO
Scientific / technical project officer

European Commission - DG JRC
Institute for Environment and Sustainability (IES)
Via Fermi, 2749
I-21027 Ispra (VA) - Italy - TP 261

Tel. +39 0332 78 3600
margherita.di-...@jrc.ec.europa.eu

Disclaimer: The views expressed are purely those of the writer and may not
in any circumstance be regarded as stating an official position of the
European Commission.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Charles Schweik]

OK, I raised the question of appropriate content to Jeff after I looked at
the FOSS4G website for a reference for a grant proposal I am writing at a
time when I was thinking specifically about diversity recruitment to
GeoForAll.

By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those
slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think
those kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and
that perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have
been in conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things
happening on stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to
this since we are hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G.

From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't)
why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more
careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the
first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second
picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul
is far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but
perhaps that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might
be turned off to the conference by that zoom-in.

Sangee, your explanation of the side of the female models is helpful. But
some people around the world will not understand it or misinterpret its
meaning or why it is there. The 'Culture' heading helps I suppose. So at
least consider having something on those slides explaining to readers what
they represent better than they do currently.

I'll close by saying, with all due respect to Sanghee and the others in
this community who disagree with me, is that if you are trying to encourage
people to come, and especially if your email footer says 'Towards
Diversity' as a goal of the conference, then the 'Precautionary Principle'
might be wise to follow. If I was doing the advertising to recruit people,
I'd be conservative and wouldn't put up imagery that could turn off
potential attendees.

I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here, and I am not judging
whether a COC is necessary or not. I just was simply raising a concern
about underlying or subtle messages embedded in a 'commercial' being used
to recruit people to our global conference.

It appears that others disagree with this view.

Charlie Schweik


On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses 
pfer...@osgeo.org wrote:

 Hello Sanghee,

  I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why
 you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of
 FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say,
 slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are
 those controversial ones.

 I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind

 * Who asked to remove the slides?

 * Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to
 you?

 On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the
 slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it
 lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing.

 May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
 suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.

 But this is just my POV.

 Best regards,
 --
 Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
 Valencia (España)
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 http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss




-- 
Charlie Schweik

Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and
Administration

Personal website: http://people.umass.edu/cschweik
Publications: http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/

Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012)
- see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545


Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
A: http://five.sentenc.es
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Milo van der Linden]

Hi Sanghee,

Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first
reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is
well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any
offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after
looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my
opinion.

1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want
to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the
presentation.

2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row of
female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I
interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful women and I
believe that is not the message you want to send under the header Culture.

3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic
drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There are a lot
of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again,
would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

Final thought:

I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should
also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds
a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make
your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an
interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!

So thank you for that!

With respect, kind regards.





2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com:

 Dear All,

 It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

 I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you
 should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G
 Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6
 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those
 controversial ones.

 I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation
 breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

 However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides
 from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss
 this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

 I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from
 all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well,
 because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

 I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s
 opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn
 how to apply CoC in real cases.

 *Sidenote for defending myself:
 - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
 “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
 - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
 Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of
 Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

 All the best,

 Sanghee

 [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
 [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
 [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
 ---
 Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
 Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
 http://2015.foss4g.org
 Twitter: @foss4g
 Facebook: FOSS4G2015
 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



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-- 
 [image: http://www.dogodigi.net] http://www.dogodigi.net
*Milo van der Linden*
web: dogodigi http://www.dogodigi.net
tel: +31-6-16598808
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Bart van den Eijnden]

Hi Charlie,

I actually get your point of view, and tend to agree with it.

Best regards,
Bart

 On 24 Jun 2015, at 13:42, Charles Schweik cschw...@pubpol.umass.edu wrote:
 
 OK, I raised the question of appropriate content to Jeff after I looked at 
 the FOSS4G website for a reference for a grant proposal I am writing at a 
 time when I was thinking specifically about diversity recruitment to 
 GeoForAll. 
 
 By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those slides 
 could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think those 
 kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and that 
 perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have been in 
 conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things happening on 
 stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to this since we are 
 hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G.
 
 From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't) 
 why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more 
 careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the 
 first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second 
 picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul is 
 far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but perhaps 
 that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might be turned 
 off to the conference by that zoom-in. 
 
 Sangee, your explanation of the side of the female models is helpful. But 
 some people around the world will not understand it or misinterpret its 
 meaning or why it is there. The 'Culture' heading helps I suppose. So at 
 least consider having something on those slides explaining to readers what 
 they represent better than they do currently. 
 
 I'll close by saying, with all due respect to Sanghee and the others in this 
 community who disagree with me, is that if you are trying to encourage people 
 to come, and especially if your email footer says 'Towards Diversity' as a 
 goal of the conference, then the 'Precautionary Principle' might be wise to 
 follow. If I was doing the advertising to recruit people, I'd be conservative 
 and wouldn't put up imagery that could turn off potential attendees.
 
 I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here, and I am not judging whether 
 a COC is necessary or not. I just was simply raising a concern about 
 underlying or subtle messages embedded in a 'commercial' being used to 
 recruit people to our global conference. 
 
 It appears that others disagree with this view. 
 
 Charlie Schweik 
   
 
 On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses 
 pfer...@osgeo.org mailto:pfer...@osgeo.org wrote:
 Hello Sanghee,
 
  I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you 
  should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G 
  Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 
  (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those 
  controversial ones.
 
 I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind
 
 * Who asked to remove the slides?
 
 * Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to you?
 
 On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the
 slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it
 lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing.
 
 May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
 suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.
 
 But this is just my POV.
 
 Best regards,
 --
 Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
 Valencia (España)
 ___
 Discuss mailing list
 Discuss@lists.osgeo.org mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
 http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss 
 http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
 
 
 -- 
 Charlie Schweik
 
 Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst
 Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and 
 Administration
 
 Personal website: http://people.umass.edu/cschweik 
 http://people.umass.edu/cschweik
 Publications: http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/ 
 http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/
 
 Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012) - 
 see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545 http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545
 
 
 Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
 A: http://five.sentenc.es 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Sanghee Shin]

Dear All, 

One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly 
what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally 
for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history 
book. 

If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that 
painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. 
However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise 
the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the 
president of USA. 

I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the 
object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. 

I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. 

All the best, 

Sanghee
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net 작성:
 
 Hi Sanghee,
 
 Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first 
 reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well 
 accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense 
 in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them 
 in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion.
 
 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to 
 say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the 
 presentation.
 
 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row of 
 female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I 
 interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful women and I 
 believe that is not the message you want to send under the header Culture.
 
 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic 
 drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There are a lot 
 of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would 
 not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.
 
 Final thought:
 
 I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also 
 do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a 
 prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make 
 your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an 
 interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!
 
 So thank you for that!
 
 With respect, kind regards.
 
 
 
 
 
 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com 
 mailto:shs...@gaia3d.com:
 Dear All,
 
 It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
 
 I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why you 
 should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G 
 Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 
 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those 
 controversial ones.
 
 I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation 
 breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
 
 However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides 
 from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this 
 issue more openly to reach conclusions.
 
 I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all 
 around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because 
 this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
 
 I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s 
 opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn 
 how to apply CoC in real cases.
 
 *Sidenote for defending myself:
 - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln 
 in Dalivision”[2]
 - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], 
 which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) 
 in/around Asia.
 
 All the best,
 
 Sanghee
 
 [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
 [1]http://2015.foss4g.org http://2015.foss4g.org/
 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
 [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
 ---
 Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
 Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
 http://2015.foss4g.org http://2015.foss4g.org/
 Twitter: @foss4g
 Facebook: FOSS4G2015
 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org mailto:foss4gch...@osgeo.org
 
 
 
 ___
 Discuss mailing list
 Discuss@lists.osgeo.org mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Massimiliano Cannata]

Just my 0.0002 cents,

I feel things are getting over complicated.

We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they
agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member).
Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned from
the community.

Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system
checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D

My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it is
responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct
moral society rules.

Maxi







2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com:

 Dear All,

 One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is
 exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image
 intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as
 well as art history book.

 If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of
 that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude
 female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you
 can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of
 Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA.

 I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the
 object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture.

 I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting.

 All the best,

 Sanghee
 ---
 Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
 Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
 http://2015.foss4g.org
 Twitter: @foss4g
 Facebook: FOSS4G2015
 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net 작성:

 Hi Sanghee,

 Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first
 reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is
 well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any
 offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after
 looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my
 opinion.

 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want
 to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the
 presentation.

 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row of
 female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I
 interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful women and I
 believe that is not the message you want to send under the header Culture.

 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic
 drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There are a lot
 of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again,
 would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

 Final thought:

 I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should
 also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds
 a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make
 your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an
 interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!

 So thank you for that!

 With respect, kind regards.





 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com:

 Dear All,

 It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

 I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why
 you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of
 FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say,
 slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are
 those controversial ones.

 I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation
 breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

 However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides
 from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss
 this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

 I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from
 all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well,
 because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

 I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s
 opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn
 how to apply CoC in real cases.

 *Sidenote for defending myself:
 - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
 “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
 - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
 Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of
 Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

 All the best,

 Sanghee

 [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
 [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Milo van der Linden]

Hahaha!

I appreciate this. Maybe we need to add some statistics to your
political-correctness-o-meter to measure how much of the world population
is potentially still on board at the final slide. This will give a clear
insight of how many people will come to the event. ;-)
On Jun 24, 2015 3:41 PM, Iván Sánchez i...@sanchezortega.es wrote:

 El Miércoles 24. junio 2015 12.42.40 Charles Schweik escribió:
  [...] I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women
 off
  who are considering attending and I think [...]

 I feel obliged to jump in the thread, because this looks just like a recent
 case of the limits of joking in Spanish media.

 Imagine this: Person A makes a joke involving person B who was a victim of
 a
 terrorist bombing. Person C throws a tantrum and tells the media I'm sure
 B
 finds A's jokes insulting, thus A must resign from his job[1]. Then,
 person B
 jumps in and publicly states that she never felt offended by A's jokes at
 all[2].

 [1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/06/13/madrid/1434219265_951793.html
 [2]
 http://www.larazon.es/opinion/columnistas/mas-fuerte-que-el-odio-AF10047124


 In other words: Saying Person A should take this down because I find it
 offensive is perfectly OK. Saying Person A should take this down because
 it
 is possibly potentially offensive to a third party is not OK (and actually
 erodes the right to freedom of expression).


 I need to ask for **evidence-based policy** here. There is a big difference
 between a Dali painting *maybe* turning someone off FOSS4G and a Dali
 painting
 *actually* turning someone off FOSS4G.



 Furthermore, there is such a thing like too much political correctness. I
 will
 illustrate *ad absurdum* by turning my own political-correctness-o-meter
 up to
 eleven for a second:

 Sanghee should remove slide 15 because blood sausages are maybe potentially
 offensive to muslims and vegans.

 Sanghee should remove slide 17 because the kerning can maybe potentially
 make
 the eyes of experience typesetters bleed.

 Sanghee should remove slides 18 and 19 because they might be potential
 triggers for agoraphobics.

 Sanghee should remove slide 22 because it might be potentially insulting to
 astronomers concerned by light pollution.

 Sanghee should remove slide 23 because it might be potentially insulting to
 grammar nazis.

 I should remove the previous sentence because someone might potentially
 find
 nazis offensive.

 Sanghee should remove slide 25 because it might be potentially insulting to
 geodesists who know circles don't have a meaning outside of distance-
 preserving projections (incidentally, these are the same people offended by
 EPSG:3857 being used everywhere) and find that FOSS4G is not
 representative of
 the professionalism required to attend such an event.

 Sanghee should remove slide 30 because the alignment might be a potential
 trigger for people with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

 Sanghee should remove slides 37-42 because they might be potentially
 offensive
 to alcoholics and former alcoholics.


 /rant

 --
 Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es i...@geonerd.org
 i...@mazemap.no
 ___
 Discuss mailing list
 Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
 http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Miércoles 24. junio 2015 12.42.40 Charles Schweik escribió:
 [...] I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off 
 who are considering attending and I think [...]

I feel obliged to jump in the thread, because this looks just like a recent 
case of the limits of joking in Spanish media.

Imagine this: Person A makes a joke involving person B who was a victim of a 
terrorist bombing. Person C throws a tantrum and tells the media I'm sure B 
finds A's jokes insulting, thus A must resign from his job[1]. Then, person B 
jumps in and publicly states that she never felt offended by A's jokes at 
all[2].

[1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/06/13/madrid/1434219265_951793.html
[2] http://www.larazon.es/opinion/columnistas/mas-fuerte-que-el-odio-AF10047124


In other words: Saying Person A should take this down because I find it 
offensive is perfectly OK. Saying Person A should take this down because it 
is possibly potentially offensive to a third party is not OK (and actually 
erodes the right to freedom of expression).


I need to ask for **evidence-based policy** here. There is a big difference 
between a Dali painting *maybe* turning someone off FOSS4G and a Dali painting 
*actually* turning someone off FOSS4G.



Furthermore, there is such a thing like too much political correctness. I will 
illustrate *ad absurdum* by turning my own political-correctness-o-meter up to 
eleven for a second:

Sanghee should remove slide 15 because blood sausages are maybe potentially 
offensive to muslims and vegans.

Sanghee should remove slide 17 because the kerning can maybe potentially make 
the eyes of experience typesetters bleed.

Sanghee should remove slides 18 and 19 because they might be potential 
triggers for agoraphobics.

Sanghee should remove slide 22 because it might be potentially insulting to 
astronomers concerned by light pollution.

Sanghee should remove slide 23 because it might be potentially insulting to 
grammar nazis.

I should remove the previous sentence because someone might potentially find 
nazis offensive.

Sanghee should remove slide 25 because it might be potentially insulting to 
geodesists who know circles don't have a meaning outside of distance-
preserving projections (incidentally, these are the same people offended by 
EPSG:3857 being used everywhere) and find that FOSS4G is not representative of 
the professionalism required to attend such an event.

Sanghee should remove slide 30 because the alignment might be a potential 
trigger for people with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Sanghee should remove slides 37-42 because they might be potentially offensive 
to alcoholics and former alcoholics.


/rant

-- 
Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es i...@geonerd.org 
i...@mazemap.no
___
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Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Kristin Bott]

Hi, all --

Including the conference list on this, since I think it's relevant (and I
suspect that variations on this conversation are happening in multiple
corners).

re: implementation plans for the CoC. A group of folks met during State of
the Map in NYC earlier this month to talk about what an implementation plan
might look like. We are currently drafting language to present to the board
to form a CoC committee *as well as *drafting an implementation plan. Jeff,
we can most certainly have this done by 1 September 2015.

Responding to CoC concerns is not simple -- we're trying to create a
structure and a process that will make this as smooth as possible for all
involved.

If you have any questions / concerns about this, feel free to contact me,
off-list or otherwise.

cheers -
-kristin

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna jmcke...@gatewaygeomatics.com
 wrote:

 I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community.  I want to point out
 that having just a Code of Conduct, words, on a website is not enough,
 there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this.  In bold
 letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation
 plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct.  This is not acceptable.  A few good
 volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation
 plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great,
 but, it is still in discussion stage.  Without some sort of plan,
 community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I
 have no formal way to handle these reports.  (Sanghee was nice enough to
 help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply
 to all reports)

 I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code
 of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed
 from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity
 statement.

 I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to
 move forward, or not at all.

 -jeff


 --
 Jeff McKenna
 President, OSGeo
 http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna




 On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:
  Dear All,
 
  It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
 
  I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why
 you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of
 FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say,
 slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are
 those controversial ones.
 
  I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my
 presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
 
  However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those
 slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better
 discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
 
  I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this
 from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as
 well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
 
  I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s
 opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn
 how to apply CoC in real cases.
 
  *Sidenote for defending myself:
  - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
 “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
  - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
 Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of
 Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
 
  All the best,
 
  Sanghee
 
  [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
  [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
  [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
  [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
  ---
  Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
  Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
  http://2015.foss4g.org
  Twitter: @foss4g
  Facebook: FOSS4G2015
  email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
 
 
 
 ___
 Discuss mailing list
 Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
 http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

___
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http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Charles Schweik]

(I've been trying not to post again, but since in a way I started this (not
meant to go so publicly!), here's my last post):

This isn't a COC issue.

This is a discussion about FOSS4G recruitment and messaging issue,
representing all of us globally who feel part of the FOSS4G community and
want to see it thrive and grow. The posts by Milo and Margherita captured
the confusion I had over messaging better than I did.

Agreed, I'm male. Please forgive me for trying to be sensitive to half the
world's population and one that our discipline has trouble recruiting, and
not understanding what the message was in the Dali sequence and the models
sequence.

Sanghee - I regret not contacting you about this directly and meant no
disrespect. Jeff- sorry for the heartburn.

Charlie Schweik







On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Massimiliano Cannata 
massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch wrote:

 Just my 0.0002 cents,

 I feel things are getting over complicated.

 We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they
 agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member).
 Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned
 from the community.

 Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system
 checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D

 My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it is
 responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct
 moral society rules.

 Maxi







 2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com:

 Dear All,

 One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is
 exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image
 intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as
 well as art history book.

 If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of
 that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude
 female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you
 can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of
 Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA.

 I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the
 object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture.

 I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting.

 All the best,

 Sanghee
 ---
 Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
 Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
 http://2015.foss4g.org
 Twitter: @foss4g
 Facebook: FOSS4G2015
 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net 작성:

 Hi Sanghee,

 Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first
 reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is
 well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any
 offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after
 looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my
 opinion.

 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want
 to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the
 presentation.

 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row of
 female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I
 interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful women and I
 believe that is not the message you want to send under the header Culture.

 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic
 drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There are a lot
 of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again,
 would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

 Final thought:

 I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should
 also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds
 a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make
 your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an
 interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!

 So thank you for that!

 With respect, kind regards.





 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com:

 Dear All,

 It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

 I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons why
 you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of
 FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say,
 slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are
 those controversial ones.

 I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my
 presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

 However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those
 slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better
 discuss this issue more openly to 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[신상희]

Dear Charles,

I understand your real intention now. Just like you mentioned, it's not the
issue of CoC. That's me who links this with CoC. And I myself brought this
to the public discussion since I felt I could be wrong and this might be
the matter of CoC. We should have discussed this earlier in private first.

Thanks for your care.

Sanghee

2015. 6. 24. 오후 2:54에 Charles Schweik cschw...@pubpol.umass.edu님이 작성:

 (I've been trying not to post again, but since in a way I started this
(not meant to go so publicly!), here's my last post):

 This isn't a COC issue.

 This is a discussion about FOSS4G recruitment and messaging issue,
representing all of us globally who feel part of the FOSS4G community and
want to see it thrive and grow. The posts by Milo and Margherita captured
the confusion I had over messaging better than I did.

 Agreed, I'm male. Please forgive me for trying to be sensitive to half
the world's population and one that our discipline has trouble recruiting,
and not understanding what the message was in the Dali sequence and the
models sequence.

 Sanghee - I regret not contacting you about this directly and meant no
disrespect. Jeff- sorry for the heartburn.

 Charlie Schweik







 On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Massimiliano Cannata 
massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch wrote:

 Just my 0.0002 cents,

 I feel things are getting over complicated.

 We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they
agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member).
 Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned
from the community.

 Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system
checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D

 My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it
is responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct
moral society rules.

 Maxi







 2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com:

 Dear All,

 One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is
exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image
intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as
well as art history book.

 If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front
of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a
nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now
you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of
Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA.

 I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from
the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture.

 I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting.

 All the best,

 Sanghee
 ---
 Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
 Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!
 http://2015.foss4g.org
 Twitter: @foss4g
 Facebook: FOSS4G2015
 email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net 작성:

 Hi Sanghee,

 Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first
reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is
well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any
offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after
looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my
opinion.

 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you
want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without
downgrading the presentation.

 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header Culture showing the row
of female models will bring a better message with another picture.
Currently I interpret this slide as: Come to Korea for the beautiful
women and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the
header Culture.

 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed
alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a drinking game. There
are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them,
again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

 Final thought:

 I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you
should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation
holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This
would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing,
it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!

 So thank you for that!

 With respect, kind regards.





 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin shs...@gaia3d.com:

 Dear All,

 It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

 I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation 7 Reasons
why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of
FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say,
slide #6 (nude 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Andy Anderson]

Ah! Anecdotes! Let me provide one from my personal experience that’s more 
relevant. A female friend of mine attending a school *was* offended by the 
gratuitous insertion of nude pictures in a slide presentation in one of her 
classes. That school was soon thereafter subjected to an investigation for 
sexual harassment by the Office of Civil Rights of the US Department of 
Education, followed by a resolution agreement.

Anecdotal cases aside, in the West these sorts of things are generally known to 
be offensive to many, many women in the wrong context. The right context would 
certainly include art museums and art classes. But at a GIS conference? 
Generally speaking, I think potentially offensive items must not only be 
germane but necessary, and if they aren’t presenters should consider 
alternatives, especially if they are presenting on behalf of a larger 
organization.

So while the Dali portrait may be germane, I don’t see it as in any way 
necessary. Sanghee writes “I just used that image to stress the importance of 
long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary 
culture.” But there are many, many other images that could be used instead to 
emphasize the same thing; they’re all over the place (see, e.g. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElUS201fM8 or 
https://www.vat19.com/item/abraham-lincoln-penny-portrait — you could even make 
your own, with a geographic basis).

Regarding the girl-group picture, Sanghee writes “I believe as symbolic icon of 
wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia” — again possibly 
germane to this point, and perhaps by far the best representation and therefore 
necessary, but I have never heard of them and the point would be lost on me. A 
photo of a bowl of kimchi would be more effective in my case :-)

At the very least, I agree with Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses when he writes “May 
be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more suitable for 
being in the landing page of the Conference.” Looks like it was a presentation 
for the 2014 meeting in Bangkok, where I assume the context was verbalized, but 
the Web is a different medium. On general principles of effectiveness, I’d 
recommend putting the context directly into the slides. Otherwise their 
inclusion does seem gratuitous.

— Andy

On Jun 24, 2015, at 10:19 AM, Milo van der Linden 
m...@dogodigi.netmailto:m...@dogodigi.net wrote:

Hahaha!

I appreciate this. Maybe we need to add some statistics to your 
political-correctness-o-meter to measure how much of the world population is 
potentially still on board at the final slide. This will give a clear insight 
of how many people will come to the event. ;-)

On Jun 24, 2015 3:41 PM, Iván Sánchez 
i...@sanchezortega.esmailto:i...@sanchezortega.es wrote:
El Miércoles 24. junio 2015 12.42.40 Charles Schweik escribió:
 [...] I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off
 who are considering attending and I think [...]

I feel obliged to jump in the thread, because this looks just like a recent
case of the limits of joking in Spanish media.

Imagine this: Person A makes a joke involving person B who was a victim of a
terrorist bombing. Person C throws a tantrum and tells the media I'm sure B
finds A's jokes insulting, thus A must resign from his job[1]. Then, person B
jumps in and publicly states that she never felt offended by A's jokes at
all[2].

[1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/06/13/madrid/1434219265_951793.html
[2] http://www.larazon.es/opinion/columnistas/mas-fuerte-que-el-odio-AF10047124


In other words: Saying Person A should take this down because I find it
offensive is perfectly OK. Saying Person A should take this down because it
is possibly potentially offensive to a third party is not OK (and actually
erodes the right to freedom of expression).


I need to ask for **evidence-based policy** here. There is a big difference
between a Dali painting *maybe* turning someone off FOSS4G and a Dali painting
*actually* turning someone off FOSS4G.



Furthermore, there is such a thing like too much political correctness. I will
illustrate *ad absurdum* by turning my own political-correctness-o-meter up to
eleven for a second:

Sanghee should remove slide 15 because blood sausages are maybe potentially
offensive to muslims and vegans.

Sanghee should remove slide 17 because the kerning can maybe potentially make
the eyes of experience typesetters bleed.

Sanghee should remove slides 18 and 19 because they might be potential
triggers for agoraphobics.

Sanghee should remove slide 22 because it might be potentially insulting to
astronomers concerned by light pollution.

Sanghee should remove slide 23 because it might be potentially insulting to
grammar nazis.

I should remove the previous sentence because someone might potentially find
nazis offensive.

Sanghee should remove slide 25 because it might be potentially insulting to
geodesists who know circles don't have a meaning outside of