Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 21:01 +0200, Eli Marmor wrote: > Omer Zak wrote: > > > ... [... snipped ...] > Oh, it was me... > > It seems that your hearing is better than anybody else ;-) To fix the record: it was actually Shlomi Fish's hearing, not mine. --- Omer -- One does not make peace with enemies. One makes peace with former enemies. My own blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?
Omer Zak wrote: > ... > > As someone pointed out in the General Assembly, netiquette is against > E-mail messages saying only "I agree with him". Therefore, traffic in > netiquette-abiding mailing lists consists mostly of several colors of > disagreement with the status quo. Oh, it was me... It seems that your hearing is better than anybody else ;-) And I want to use this opportunity to say that most of the members agree to most (or even all) of the activities of the members of the board. This is true even when there are internal conflicts between the members of the board: we really appreciate them, and we are sure that both sides are right (and please don't force me to settle the conglict ;-) I hope I didn't hurt anybody by using the word "we". -- Eli Marmor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd. __ Tel.: +972-9-766-1020 8 Yad-Harutzim St. Fax.: +972-9-766-1314 P.O.B. 7004 Mobile: +972-50-5237338 Kfar-Saba 44641, Israel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 11:46 +0200, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Tue, Dec 20, 2005, Omer Zak wrote about "Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the > political process back into control?": > > Even having representatives sitting on the advisory board of another > > organization causes Hamakor to assume more roles than the minimal ones > > of money management and focal point for Public Relations & External > > Politics. This would, for example, force the board to decide who will > > be Hamakor's representatives in the advisory board (or at least how they > > will be chosen). > > Omer, not everyone agrees with you that Hamakor's board needs to "assume the > minimal role of money management and focal point of PR". In fact, much of the > cry-outs against the board on this list in the past few months have been > exactly against this: people said that Hamakor's board is doing *too little* > and restricting its scope too much to what you described as its ideal role. As someone pointed out in the General Assembly, netiquette is against E-mail messages saying only "I agree with him". Therefore, traffic in netiquette-abiding mailing lists consists mostly of several colors of disagreement with the status quo. > Moreover, we have an example of a fruitful case of "having representatives > sitting on an advisory board of another organization" this year: the board > chose Edi and myself to sit on the advisory board for ISOC-IL initiative to > fund free software (see http://www.isoc.org.il/open/). The other organization already exists, and the Free Software community has an interest in influencing it. So sending there representatives is in accordance with the PR and lobbying roles of Hamakor. I may not have used the best terminology, but as I understand it, Hamakor was founded in order to accomplish those wishes of the Free Software community in Israel, which need an official body i.e. money handling, public relations contact person, lobbying with the government and other organizations. Hamakor was not founded to actually accomplish projects. Hamakor was founded to help people accomplish projects. Anything, which can be easily accomplished without an official body (like holding Linux clubs, participation in exhibitions, maybe even maintaining a Web site) - should not be done by Hamakor. > In a couple of week, > when the results of this initiative are announced by ISOC-IL, you'll see > just how fruitful this kind of cooperation can be. (Hint for the impatient: > we wouldn't have had this kind of money in 10 years, if it weren't for > ISOC-IL). I approve of your and Edi's nomination to the ISOC-IL advisory board for the aforementioned initiative. This approval is not conditional upon the results. If you failed rather than succeeded (as hinted above), then I'd approve participation in the advisory board the same (at most suggesting replacing the actual representatives). > Hamakor's board were not elected to be puppets: we (hopefully) elected > people we trust, and we want them to make decisions, even tough decisions > and decisions that give them "power" over allocating money and people. Contrariwise, I'd rather have a situation, in which the board members play minimal role. The actual moving and shaking should be done by volunteer projectors (like you and Edi). --- Omer -- Delay is the deadliest form of denial.C. Northcote Parkinson My own blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?
Nadav Har'El wrote: On Tue, Dec 20, 2005, Omer Zak wrote about "Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?": Even having representatives sitting on the advisory board of another organization causes Hamakor to assume more roles than the minimal ones of money management and focal point for Public Relations & External Politics. This would, for example, force the board to decide who will be Hamakor's representatives in the advisory board (or at least how they will be chosen). Omer, not everyone agrees with you that Hamakor's board needs to "assume the minimal role of money management and focal point of PR". In fact, much of the cry-outs against the board on this list in the past few months have been exactly against this: people said that Hamakor's board is doing *too little* and restricting its scope too much to what you described as its ideal role. Actually, it is stated specifically in article 6 of the Amuta goals that we *should* do it. Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Codefidence. A name you can trust(tm) Web: http://codefidence.com | SIP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IL: +972.9.8650475 ext. 201 | Fax:+972.9.8850643 US: +1.212.2026643 ext. 201 | Cel: +972.52.8260388 "I am Jack's Overwritten Stack Pointer" -- Hackers Club, the movie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?
On Tue, Dec 20, 2005, Omer Zak wrote about "Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?": > Even having representatives sitting on the advisory board of another > organization causes Hamakor to assume more roles than the minimal ones > of money management and focal point for Public Relations & External > Politics. This would, for example, force the board to decide who will > be Hamakor's representatives in the advisory board (or at least how they > will be chosen). Omer, not everyone agrees with you that Hamakor's board needs to "assume the minimal role of money management and focal point of PR". In fact, much of the cry-outs against the board on this list in the past few months have been exactly against this: people said that Hamakor's board is doing *too little* and restricting its scope too much to what you described as its ideal role. Moreover, we have an example of a fruitful case of "having representatives sitting on an advisory board of another organization" this year: the board chose Edi and myself to sit on the advisory board for ISOC-IL initiative to fund free software (see http://www.isoc.org.il/open/). In a couple of week, when the results of this initiative are announced by ISOC-IL, you'll see just how fruitful this kind of cooperation can be. (Hint for the impatient: we wouldn't have had this kind of money in 10 years, if it weren't for ISOC-IL). Hamakor's board were not elected to be puppets: we (hopefully) elected people we trust, and we want them to make decisions, even tough decisions and decisions that give them "power" over allocating money and people. -- Nadav Har'El| Wednesday, Dec 21 2005, 20 Kislev 5766 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |I considered atheism but there weren't http://nadav.harel.org.il |enough holidays. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?
I think you should make a difference between shares and advisory board. Hamakor was offered shares in Vaya. Hamakor was not asked to seat in any advisory board. -- Ori Idan Omer Zak wrote: >Even having representatives sitting on the advisory board of another >organization causes Hamakor to assume more roles than the minimal ones >of money management and focal point for Public Relations & External >Politics. This would, for example, force the board to decide who will >be Hamakor's representatives in the advisory board (or at least how they >will be chosen). > >Hence, I suggest to limit Hamakor's official role to joint sponsorship >(for PR advantage) of projects sponsored by Vaya Research Organization. >The Hamakor board would need to decide, on project by project basis, >whether to sponsor a project or not. But this is not different from >today's decisions whether and how to manage the monetary affairs of a >project like August Penguin or W2L. > >If Vaya Research Organization want anyone from Hamakor membership to >advise them, they can publicize an invitation in this mailing list. If >they want to hold a meeting and there are too many Hamakor members who >want to participate in it, Vaya can choose representatives from those >members in whatever way they want. Hamakor does not need to be >officially involved at all. > --- Omer > >On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 12:52 +0200, E L wrote: > > >>I agree with that. >> >>Ely >> >>On 12/20/05, guy keren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Omer Zak wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 09:32 +0200, Alon Altman wrote: >>> > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Omer Zak wrote: >>> > > We also have to ensure that Hamakor's official positions >>are made >>> > > unattractive to power-hungry politicians.This means, for >>example, that >>> > > the Hamakor board should think twice before accepting >>the share in the >>> > > Vaya Research Institute.It is OK and necessary that >>people, who >>> > > volunteered to serve in Hamakor's board and other >>positions, are >>> > > rewarded AFTER they finish their terms in those >>positions.But as long >>> > > as they are holding those positions, they should not >>have incentives to >>> > > continue clinging to them. >>> > >>> > The shares in Vaya were awarded to Hamakor, not to the >>board members. >>> > These shares do not have a monetaryvalue and are only >>symbolic. >>> >>> It does not matter.Once Hamakor has those shares, the >>Hamakor Board >>> has some tiny power over another organization, and this tiny >>power has >>> the consequence of adding to the attraction in the eyes of >>power-hungry >>> people. >>> >>> If Hamakor's goals can be furthered by share-based control >>over Vaya >>> Research Institution, then this may be worth the above >>risk.But I do >>> not see where those shares can further the goals of >>Hamakor.Anything >>> Hamakor needs to further its goals can be nicely asked of >>the major >>> stakeholders of Vaya Research Institution. >> >>in other words, hamakor can simply sit on the advisory board, >>instead of >>having direct stakes in another organization. >> >>i think this will be enough to achieve what was desired, >>without having to >>add more beaurocracy of shares. >> >> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?
Even having representatives sitting on the advisory board of another organization causes Hamakor to assume more roles than the minimal ones of money management and focal point for Public Relations & External Politics. This would, for example, force the board to decide who will be Hamakor's representatives in the advisory board (or at least how they will be chosen). Hence, I suggest to limit Hamakor's official role to joint sponsorship (for PR advantage) of projects sponsored by Vaya Research Organization. The Hamakor board would need to decide, on project by project basis, whether to sponsor a project or not. But this is not different from today's decisions whether and how to manage the monetary affairs of a project like August Penguin or W2L. If Vaya Research Organization want anyone from Hamakor membership to advise them, they can publicize an invitation in this mailing list. If they want to hold a meeting and there are too many Hamakor members who want to participate in it, Vaya can choose representatives from those members in whatever way they want. Hamakor does not need to be officially involved at all. --- Omer On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 12:52 +0200, E L wrote: > I agree with that. > > Ely > > On 12/20/05, guy keren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Omer Zak wrote: > > > On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 09:32 +0200, Alon Altman wrote: > > > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Omer Zak wrote: > > > > We also have to ensure that Hamakor's official positions > are made > > > > unattractive to power-hungry politicians.This means, for > example, that > > > > the Hamakor board should think twice before accepting > the share in the > > > > Vaya Research Institute.It is OK and necessary that > people, who > > > > volunteered to serve in Hamakor's board and other > positions, are > > > > rewarded AFTER they finish their terms in those > positions.But as long > > > > as they are holding those positions, they should not > have incentives to > > > > continue clinging to them. > > > > > > The shares in Vaya were awarded to Hamakor, not to the > board members. > > > These shares do not have a monetaryvalue and are only > symbolic. > > > > It does not matter.Once Hamakor has those shares, the > Hamakor Board > > has some tiny power over another organization, and this tiny > power has > > the consequence of adding to the attraction in the eyes of > power-hungry > > people. > > > > If Hamakor's goals can be furthered by share-based control > over Vaya > > Research Institution, then this may be worth the above > risk.But I do > > not see where those shares can further the goals of > Hamakor.Anything > > Hamakor needs to further its goals can be nicely asked of > the major > > stakeholders of Vaya Research Institution. > > in other words, hamakor can simply sit on the advisory board, > instead of > having direct stakes in another organization. > > i think this will be enough to achieve what was desired, > without having to > add more beaurocracy of shares. -- Every good master plan involves building a time machine. Moshe Zadka My own blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?
I agree with that. ElyOn 12/20/05, guy keren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Omer Zak wrote:> On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 09:32 +0200, Alon Altman wrote:> > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Omer Zak wrote:> > > We also have to ensure that Hamakor's official positions are made > > > unattractive to power-hungry politicians.This means, for example, that> > > the Hamakor board should think twice before accepting the share in the> > > Vaya Research Institute.It is OK and necessary that people, who> > > volunteered to serve in Hamakor's board and other positions, are> > > rewarded AFTER they finish their terms in those positions.But as long> > > as they are holding those positions, they should not have incentives to > > > continue clinging to them.> >> > The shares in Vaya were awarded to Hamakor, not to the board members.> > These shares do not have a monetaryvalue and are only symbolic. >> It does not matter.Once Hamakor has those shares, the Hamakor Board> has some tiny power over another organization, and this tiny power has> the consequence of adding to the attraction in the eyes of power-hungry > people.>> If Hamakor's goals can be furthered by share-based control over Vaya> Research Institution, then this may be worth the above risk.But I do> not see where those shares can further the goals of Hamakor.Anything> Hamakor needs to further its goals can be nicely asked of the major> stakeholders of Vaya Research Institution.in other words, hamakor can simply sit on the advisory board, instead of having direct stakes in another organization.i think this will be enough to achieve what was desired, without having toadd more beaurocracy of shares.--guy"For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy-To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Omer Zak wrote: > On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 09:32 +0200, Alon Altman wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Omer Zak wrote: > > > We also have to ensure that Hamakor's official positions are made > > > unattractive to power-hungry politicians.This means, for example, that > > > the Hamakor board should think twice before accepting the share in the > > > Vaya Research Institute.It is OK and necessary that people, who > > > volunteered to serve in Hamakor's board and other positions, are > > > rewarded AFTER they finish their terms in those positions.But as long > > > as they are holding those positions, they should not have incentives to > > > continue clinging to them. > > > > The shares in Vaya were awarded to Hamakor, not to the board members. > > These shares do not have a monetaryvalue and are only symbolic. > > It does not matter.Once Hamakor has those shares, the Hamakor Board > has some tiny power over another organization, and this tiny power has > the consequence of adding to the attraction in the eyes of power-hungry > people. > > If Hamakor's goals can be furthered by share-based control over Vaya > Research Institution, then this may be worth the above risk.But I do > not see where those shares can further the goals of Hamakor.Anything > Hamakor needs to further its goals can be nicely asked of the major > stakeholders of Vaya Research Institution. in other words, hamakor can simply sit on the advisory board, instead of having direct stakes in another organization. i think this will be enough to achieve what was desired, without having to add more beaurocracy of shares. -- guy "For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?
On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 09:32 +0200, Alon Altman wrote: > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Omer Zak wrote: > > We also have to ensure that Hamakor's official positions are made > > unattractive to power-hungry politicians. This means, for example, that > > the Hamakor board should think twice before accepting the share in the > > Vaya Research Institute. It is OK and necessary that people, who > > volunteered to serve in Hamakor's board and other positions, are > > rewarded AFTER they finish their terms in those positions. But as long > > as they are holding those positions, they should not have incentives to > > continue clinging to them. > >The shares in Vaya were awarded to Hamakor, not to the board members. > These shares do not have a monetary value and are only symbolic. It does not matter. Once Hamakor has those shares, the Hamakor Board has some tiny power over another organization, and this tiny power has the consequence of adding to the attraction in the eyes of power-hungry people. If Hamakor's goals can be furthered by share-based control over Vaya Research Institution, then this may be worth the above risk. But I do not see where those shares can further the goals of Hamakor. Anything Hamakor needs to further its goals can be nicely asked of the major stakeholders of Vaya Research Institution. --- Omer -- Sent from a PC running a top secret test version of Windows 97. My own blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Goals of Hamakor? Putting the political process back into control?
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Omer Zak wrote: We also have to ensure that Hamakor's official positions are made unattractive to power-hungry politicians. This means, for example, that the Hamakor board should think twice before accepting the share in the Vaya Research Institute. It is OK and necessary that people, who volunteered to serve in Hamakor's board and other positions, are rewarded AFTER they finish their terms in those positions. But as long as they are holding those positions, they should not have incentives to continue clinging to them. The shares in Vaya were awarded to Hamakor, not to the board members. These shares do not have a monetary value and are only symbolic. No one in the board is "clinging" to their position. In fact, all the current board members have one time or another proposed to resign. The ONLY reason the board members are still in the board is that they care enough for the goals of Hamakor to not let it crumble due to lack of management. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 GPG public key at http://8ln.org/pubkey.txt Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627 DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24 -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- byob, v: Believing Your Own Bull - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
