Re: Proposing development discussion forums

[Andrew Godwin]

‪On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 10:16 PM ‫אורי‬‎  wrote:‬

> Every Google Group also has an online forum:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/django-developers
>

Indeed, I am aware of this, I usually use it when I link threads on Twitter.

However, it is not really a forum in the sense I am describing - one that
has categories, editable posts, and the ability to selectively get email
for certain categories or threads rather than all-or-nothing. The Groups
forum interface is more just an online mailing list interface, with all the
problems of the underlying list model.

Andrew

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

[אורי]

Every Google Group also has an online forum:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/django-developers
אורי
u...@speedy.net


On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 6:03 AM Andrew Godwin  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> This might be slightly controversial, but I would like to propose that we
> have a forum for discussing Django development (and potentially user
> support), alongside the mailing list and maybe, eventually replacing it.
>
> My full reasoning is below, but in short, it would be more accessible for
> new users, have a better UI, give us the ability to moderate away
> problematic posts, be better for privacy, and still allow email-based
> interaction.
>
> At DjangoCon AU, the opening keynote was an invited speaker from the Rust
> community (E. Dunham, https://twitter.com/QEDunham). I invite you to
> watch the full talk if you are at all interested in how another language
> handles their community (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7PxyrCBR0),
> but the takeaway for me was their use of forums rather than mailing lists.
>
> The Django mailing lists were an excellent choice when Django began, but I
> feel they have aged out of the modern Web somewhat. The user interface for
> accessing them is particularly poor, which makes it particularly bad for
> new contributors.
>
> In addition, when looking at how to organise the effort to help bring
> async into Django, something more dynamic, and more segmented, than mailing
> lists would be incredibly useful. I don't want to drown out the list in
> specific discussions of how to port certain features, but we need to have
> those discussions somewhere permanent and asynchronous (so not IRC).
>
> The mutability of a forum is also not to be overlooked - as well as
> allowing things like pinned posts and post edits for small issues (or a
> living header on a long discussion topic), it also allows for permanent
> removal of things that break the Code of Conduct. On the people front, it
> also allows people to post without their email being public, allows for
> name changes, and provides for someone's right to be forgotten via
> anonymisation of prior content.
>
> Now, I'm not suggesting we kill the mailing list and switch over or
> anything like that; instead, I suggest we run an instance of Discourse as a
> test, and use it as the primary discussion area for async work, as well as
> anything else that people want to discuss - with the expectation that
> anything important still goes out to this mailing list.
>
> Why Discourse? Apart from being a mature, open source forum project, it's
> also very fully featured, and even supports subscribing and interacting
> with the forum over email, so it can still fit into an email-based
> workflow. There are also plenty of small niceties, like the option to have
> it hosted for us via a paid service, or the ability to use GitHub for login
> rather than requiring a separate username and password. It also helps that
> Rust seems quite happy with it.
>
> I'm mostly asking for the "temperature of the room" on this one - if we
> get some small objections, I think a trial period is still worthwhile. If
> there are major objections, then I'd like to ask people what their
> alternative suggestions are for solving this sort of communication.
>
> Do I think this would replace the mailing list? Not in the short term, but
> maybe if it takes off and we all like it better. I personally would
> interact with django-developers a whole lot more if I could just subscribe
> to certain topics (rather than trying to emulate that with an email filter
> as I do now!), and honestly the same thing for django-users. That said, I
> also recognise that diluting the support/discussion pool is not exactly an
> attractive idea, which is why I'm asking for input!
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Proposing development discussion forums

[Andrew Godwin]

Hi everyone,

This might be slightly controversial, but I would like to propose that we
have a forum for discussing Django development (and potentially user
support), alongside the mailing list and maybe, eventually replacing it.

My full reasoning is below, but in short, it would be more accessible for
new users, have a better UI, give us the ability to moderate away
problematic posts, be better for privacy, and still allow email-based
interaction.

At DjangoCon AU, the opening keynote was an invited speaker from the Rust
community (E. Dunham, https://twitter.com/QEDunham). I invite you to watch
the full talk if you are at all interested in how another language handles
their community (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7PxyrCBR0), but the
takeaway for me was their use of forums rather than mailing lists.

The Django mailing lists were an excellent choice when Django began, but I
feel they have aged out of the modern Web somewhat. The user interface for
accessing them is particularly poor, which makes it particularly bad for
new contributors.

In addition, when looking at how to organise the effort to help bring async
into Django, something more dynamic, and more segmented, than mailing lists
would be incredibly useful. I don't want to drown out the list in specific
discussions of how to port certain features, but we need to have those
discussions somewhere permanent and asynchronous (so not IRC).

The mutability of a forum is also not to be overlooked - as well as
allowing things like pinned posts and post edits for small issues (or a
living header on a long discussion topic), it also allows for permanent
removal of things that break the Code of Conduct. On the people front, it
also allows people to post without their email being public, allows for
name changes, and provides for someone's right to be forgotten via
anonymisation of prior content.

Now, I'm not suggesting we kill the mailing list and switch over or
anything like that; instead, I suggest we run an instance of Discourse as a
test, and use it as the primary discussion area for async work, as well as
anything else that people want to discuss - with the expectation that
anything important still goes out to this mailing list.

Why Discourse? Apart from being a mature, open source forum project, it's
also very fully featured, and even supports subscribing and interacting
with the forum over email, so it can still fit into an email-based
workflow. There are also plenty of small niceties, like the option to have
it hosted for us via a paid service, or the ability to use GitHub for login
rather than requiring a separate username and password. It also helps that
Rust seems quite happy with it.

I'm mostly asking for the "temperature of the room" on this one - if we get
some small objections, I think a trial period is still worthwhile. If there
are major objections, then I'd like to ask people what their alternative
suggestions are for solving this sort of communication.

Do I think this would replace the mailing list? Not in the short term, but
maybe if it takes off and we all like it better. I personally would
interact with django-developers a whole lot more if I could just subscribe
to certain topics (rather than trying to emulate that with an email filter
as I do now!), and honestly the same thing for django-users. That said, I
also recognise that diluting the support/discussion pool is not exactly an
attractive idea, which is why I'm asking for input!

Thanks,
Andrew

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Re: Django LTS support time

[Adam Johnson]

Hi Uri,

For everyone's convenience here's the documentation on the release process:
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/release-process/ , and the
grid of supported versions in time: https://www.djangoproject.com/download/

The current release cadence was decided 4 years ago in DEP 4
https://github.com/django/deps/blob/master/final/0004-release-schedule.rst ‎

The current LTS cadence is a balance between a huge number of factors and
players. Some would like it to be faster (like, say the world of
JavaScript), and some would like it to be slower like yourself.

Here are a number of reasons I think Ubuntu can have a longer LTS than
Django:

   - Ubuntu is a product by Canonical. They sell features on top of the OS
   to big clients and even sell extended support beyond LTS:
   https://ubuntu.com/esm#faq . Django is made by a charity and volunteers.
   Whilst we don't want to disrupt users with needless, there is also a
   limited amount of paid development time, by fellows, and we don't want to
   spend all of that backporting fixes.
   - The web moves faster than operating systems. Keeping Django releases a
   bit more frequent allows us to make sure we keep up with some aspects.

In my experience upgrading Django itself is not the hardest part of making
a Python web app. You're right that there are bugs in external packages but
typically I find compatibility PR's are welcomed and merged fairly quickly.
django-crispy-forms is actually being maintained by Django fellow Carlton
Gibson (in his spare time!) so I'm sure it's open to fixes for issues you
see.

If you really care about long term LTS I believe you can install Django
with apt on Ubuntu and they promise to backport all major CVE fixes into
their version, though I recommend installing from pip

Hope that helps,

Adam

‪On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 at 08:29, ‫אורי‬‎  wrote:‬

> Django Developers,
>
> I would like to know why Django LTS support time is 3 years. I think with
> Ubuntu LTS it's at least 5 years. We are using Django 1.11 for Speedy Net,
> which was released on April 2017, and I'm not sure we will be able to
> upgrade it before April 2020. There are changes which are not backward
> compatible, we will have to change some of our code if we upgrade Django,
> and some packages we are using, such as Django Crispy Forms, we have to use
> versions which don't support Django versions higher than 1.11 due to bugs
> in future releases (
> https://github.com/django-crispy-forms/django-crispy-forms/issues/889).
> Upgrading to the next LTS version (2.2) will take lots of time, and the end
> of support of 2.1 is December 2019. I want to release Speedy Net and Speedy
> Match to production soon, and I don't think we will be able to upgrade
> Django before 2020. It would help if there was 5 years support for each
> Django LTS version. What do you think?
>
> אורי
> u...@speedy.net
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> 
> .
>


-- 
Adam

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Re: Django LTS support time

[Carlton Gibson]

Hi Uri. 

I can’t see that we have capacity to extend the LTS support window. Even if we 
did, I’m not sure it’s a good idea. 

Your best bet is to get off the LTS and onto the latest major version, and then 
stay there. (As much work as that may look initially.)
It requires a commitment to upgrade every 9 months (with an 18 month window) 
but it really is the smoothest path.  

Re Crispy Forms, I’m fairly sure that if you can pin down the issue more 
precisely a fix would be quite easy. (It’s _always_ a template issue… — pin it 
down and you can override the shipped template in the meantime.) FYI they’ll be 
a new release in the Autumn there, before Django 3.0, so a PR before then would 
be super. 

Kind Regards,

Carlton


> On 9 Aug 2019, at 09:29, ⁨אורי⁩ <⁨u...@speedy.net⁩> wrote:
> 
> Django Developers,
> 
> I would like to know why Django LTS support time is 3 years. I think with 
> Ubuntu LTS it's at least 5 years. We are using Django 1.11 for Speedy Net, 
> which was released on April 2017, and I'm not sure we will be able to upgrade 
> it before April 2020. There are changes which are not backward compatible, we 
> will have to change some of our code if we upgrade Django, and some packages 
> we are using, such as Django Crispy Forms, we have to use versions which 
> don't support Django versions higher than 1.11 due to bugs in future releases 
> (https://github.com/django-crispy-forms/django-crispy-forms/issues/889 
> ). 
> Upgrading to the next LTS version (2.2) will take lots of time, and the end 
> of support of 2.1 is December 2019. I want to release Speedy Net and Speedy 
> Match to production soon, and I don't think we will be able to upgrade Django 
> before 2020. It would help if there was 5 years support for each Django LTS 
> version. What do you think?
> 
> אורי
> u...@speedy.net 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
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>  
> .

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Re: Django Models

[Adam Johnson]

Hi!

I think you've found the wrong mailing list for this post. This mailing
list is for the development of Django itself, not for support using Django.
This means the discussions of bugs and features in Django itself, rather
than in your code using it. People on this list are unlikely to answer your
support query with their limited time and energy. Read more on the mailing
lists at https://www.djangoproject.com/community/

For support, please use the django-users mailing list, or IRC #django on
Freenode, or a site like Stack Overflow. There are people out there willing
to help on those channels, but they might not respond if you don't ask your
question well. Stack Overflow's question guide can help you frame it well:
https://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask .

Also if you haven't read it, please take a look at Django's Code of
Conduct: https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/ . These are our "ground
rules" for working well as a community, and will help you get the most out
of Django and our fantastic community.

As for your question - the Django official tutorial guides you through
creating some models with foreign keys, so should serve as a great starting
point for you: https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/2.2/intro/tutorial01/ .
Also see my blog post
https://adamj.eu/tech/2019/03/21/where-to-learn-django-in-2019/ for more
learning resources.

Thanks for your understanding,

Adam

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 at 02:17, RAVVE MAALIE  wrote:

> Actually you can refer to one to many relation model.
>
> Its like one user has multiple address
> Or
> One adress has multiple users.
>
> In models file.
> You can make changes.
> Like
> For 1 user multiple address
> Eg:
> Class User(models.Model):
> User_name= models.Charfield()
> Class address(models.Model):
> Adre=model.ForeignKey(User, on_delete=models.CASCADE)
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2019, 02:36 göktürk sığırtmaç 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi, I'm developing app with django. I have users module. My database
>> schema users table and address table. Address table have foreign key from
>> users table. Now how can compose app architecture? Should i new module as
>> address and i should put address model etc. or Should i write address table
>> in users model? Does second choose violate single responsibility principle.
>>
>> --
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>> 
>> .
>>
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> 
> .
>


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Django LTS support time

[אורי]

Django Developers,

I would like to know why Django LTS support time is 3 years. I think with
Ubuntu LTS it's at least 5 years. We are using Django 1.11 for Speedy Net,
which was released on April 2017, and I'm not sure we will be able to
upgrade it before April 2020. There are changes which are not backward
compatible, we will have to change some of our code if we upgrade Django,
and some packages we are using, such as Django Crispy Forms, we have to use
versions which don't support Django versions higher than 1.11 due to bugs
in future releases (
https://github.com/django-crispy-forms/django-crispy-forms/issues/889).
Upgrading to the next LTS version (2.2) will take lots of time, and the end
of support of 2.1 is December 2019. I want to release Speedy Net and Speedy
Match to production soon, and I don't think we will be able to upgrade
Django before 2020. It would help if there was 5 years support for each
Django LTS version. What do you think?

אורי
u...@speedy.net

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