Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:36 PM, Adam Jenkins  wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Marcello Bontempo Salgueiro
>  wrote:
>> Don´t make a core list, put inside the dajngo site
>> a new applet for register jobs, like have in the python.org[1]!!
>
> djangogigs.com
>
> On the point of name. I think using the word "contributer(s)" is the
> best way to remove confusion. The word developer is too vague when
> discussing a framework.

Guys - seriously: this is the absolute definition of a bikeshed
argument. Making things worse: if you search the archives, it's a an
argument we've had it _many_ times before.

There is no name that is both short and completely unambiguous. I
guarantee that if we renamed django-devel to django-core, we would
still get mail that should go to django-users "because my question is
about the core Django software".

Even if we did discover a magic unambiguous name, changing the name is
_not_ trivial - if you rename any mailing, all the permalinks pointing
at old threads would break. If we start a new list, then we have to
manage the process of searching two archives (and telling newcomers to
do the same when then come with questions).

On top of all that - there already _is_ a django-core mailing list. It
exists for the Django core to discuss administrative issues and other
things that can't be discussed in public.

In short, we're _not_ changing the name. Please stop discussing the
relative merits of the alternatives. We've considered them. We've
rejected them. Let's move on.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Adam Jenkins]

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Marcello Bontempo Salgueiro
<mbsalgue...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> Don´t make a core list, put inside the dajngo site
> a new applet for register jobs, like have in the python.org[1]!!

djangogigs.com

On the point of name. I think using the word "contributer(s)" is the
best way to remove confusion. The word developer is too vague when
discussing a framework.

> Its simple and best for all! ;)
> hugs,
>
> Marcello Bontempo Salgueiro
>
> [1] http://python.org/community/jobs/
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Dave Smith" <davewsm...@gmail.com>
> To: django-developers@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer
> urgent)
> Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 07:26:01 -0700
>
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:49 AM, Ned Batchelder <n...@nedbatchelder.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Add the word "core" to make the first sentence, "Discussion group for
>> Django core developers".
>
> Good idea, but I'd take it step farther. "Core" is just ambiguous enough
> outside the bubble that some people will still stop reading at the first
> sentence, satisfied that they've found the list they're looking for.
>
> How about:
>
>   "You're found the wrong list. You're probably looking for django-users
> unless you're interested in the development of the Django framework itself."
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Jeff Gentry]

> I don't know where you got "the core team" from--django-core:
> development on Django itself, and more importantly, it would have been
> completely unambiguous to users developing using Django.

FWIW, another project that I was a contributer for had '-devel' for the
same purpose as this list and -core for the actual core developers.  It
seems like a reasonable paradigm


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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Joshua Partogi]

I agree. In programming world, a 'user' is actually someone that
develops something with that framework or programming language. This
is quite contrast compared to OS world. The term 'Linux user' would
imply someone that actually use Linux, while Linux developers would
imply someone that is developing Linux.

Regards,

On May 12, 7:12 am, Glenn Maynard  wrote:
> Better names for django-users and django-developer would have been
> django-developer and django-core, respectively.  Calling this list
> "developer" wasn't such a great idea--the users of Django *are*
> developers; they're developing with Django.  No amount of tweaking the
> list description is going to fix the unintuitive naming.

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Glenn Maynard]

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 5:43 PM, James Bennett  wrote:
> There are no "intuitive" or "right" names, really ("django-core"
> wouldn't work because this list is for more people than just the
> "core" team, for example -- nothing short of
> "developers-who-work-on-and-contribute-to-Django's-codebase-and-not-just-people-who-use-Django-because-those-people-belong-on-the-other-list"
> would work). Can we accept that the bikeshed's been painted?

I don't know where you got "the core team" from--django-core:
development on Django itself, and more importantly, it would have been
completely unambiguous to users developing using Django.

But it's obviously not worth changing now.   That's why I said "would
have been".  The notion of inverting the meaning of -developer at this
point--in the name of reducing confusion--is rather amusing, though.

-- 
Glenn Maynard

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[James Bennett]

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Glenn Maynard  wrote:
> Better names for django-users and django-developer would have been
> django-developer and django-core, respectively.  Calling this list
> "developer" wasn't such a great idea--the users of Django *are*
> developers; they're developing with Django.  No amount of tweaking the
> list description is going to fix the unintuitive naming.

There are no "intuitive" or "right" names, really ("django-core"
wouldn't work because this list is for more people than just the
"core" team, for example -- nothing short of
"developers-who-work-on-and-contribute-to-Django's-codebase-and-not-just-people-who-use-Django-because-those-people-belong-on-the-other-list"
would work). Can we accept that the bikeshed's been painted?


-- 
"Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct."

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Glenn Maynard]

Better names for django-users and django-developer would have been
django-developer and django-core, respectively.  Calling this list
"developer" wasn't such a great idea--the users of Django *are*
developers; they're developing with Django.  No amount of tweaking the
list description is going to fix the unintuitive naming.

-- 
Glenn Maynard

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[James Bennett]

On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Joshua Partogi  wrote:
> I really doubt that the people from HR would really read the
> description of the group. I've been dealing with HR people. :-D All
> they care about is posting the job based on the specs their end user
> told them. And to them, the name django developers would imply that
> the group is the place where you can get good django developers. While
> django users seems to be more like a group of people that maintain
> (use) django apps, the people in the IT department.

Well, if HR people really want to take up the time of everyone on the
list with job postings, perhaps we should simply start billing them?
Proceeds to the DSF sounds good to me :)


-- 
"Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct."

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Joshua Partogi]

Hi Jacob,

I really doubt that the people from HR would really read the
description of the group. I've been dealing with HR people. :-D All
they care about is posting the job based on the specs their end user
told them. And to them, the name django developers would imply that
the group is the place where you can get good django developers. While
django users seems to be more like a group of people that maintain
(use) django apps, the people in the IT department.

Cheers,

On May 8, 9:05 pm, Jacob Kaplan-Moss 
wrote:
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Joshua Partogi  wrote:
> > Some people get confused and thought that this list is for people that
> > develop apps with django :-D
>
> Those people might want to take the time to read the list description
> (http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers) that they see when
> signing up, which reads:
>
> """
> Discussion group for Django developers. This group is used for
> discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please use
> django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for
> the Django user community, outreach, etc.
> """

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[J. Cliff Dyer]

+1

I think Warren's suggestion is the clearest.  I also like the "core
developers" bit, but I would put that in as a second sentence.
Something like:

"""
Discussion group for issues regarding the development of the Django
framework itself.  This is primarily for core developers.  For
discussion of issues
"""



On Fri, 2009-05-08 at 07:16 -0600, Warren Smith wrote:
> >> """
> >> Discussion group for Django developers. This group is used for
> >> discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please use
> >> django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for
> >> the Django user community, outreach, etc.
> >> """
> >>
> 
> I agree that all the pertinent information is in there, for those that
> bother to read it completely.
> However, someone who only bothers to read the first sentence will be misled.
> 
> Perhaps something similar to the following would serve us better:
> """
> Discussion group for issues regarding the development of the Django
> framework itself.
> For discussion of issues that involve the entire Django community,
> including using the
> framework to develop applications, please use django-users.
> """
> 
> Just my $.02
> 


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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Tim Chase]

> How about:
> 
>   "You're found the wrong list. You're probably looking for django-users
> unless you're interested in the development of the Django framework itself."

+1

[waves hand] This is not the list you are looking for.

-tim




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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[David Zhou]

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Edwin Wong  wrote
>
> Having followed the group here for some time, anybody posting a job
> posting or similar off-topic posting tends to be a first time poster,
> and in most cases it's very obvious that they never even bothered to
> read the group description.  That being the case, I think clarifying
> the group description will only have a minimal effect on preventing
> off-topic posts.  The good news is that they're pretty uncommon right
> now.  Just my two cents,

This +1.

It's rare enough that manual emails telling them about the nature of
the list is fine, I think.

-- dz

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Marcello Bontempo Salgueiro]

Don´t make a core list, put inside the dajngo site
a new applet for register jobs, like have in the python.org[1]!!
Its simple and best for all! ;)
hugs,

Marcello Bontempo Salgueiro

[1] http://python.org/community/jobs/



  - Original Message -
  From: "Dave Smith" <davewsm...@gmail.com>
  To: django-developers@googlegroups.com
  Subject: Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django
  Developer urgent)
  Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 07:26:01 -0700

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:49 AM, Ned Batchelder <n...@nedbatchelder.com>
wrote:

  Add the word "core" to make the first sentence, "Discussion group for
  Django core developers".


Good idea, but I'd take it step farther. "Core" is just ambiguous enough
outside the bubble that some people will still stop reading at the first
sentence, satisfied that they've found the list they're looking for.

How about:

"You're found the wrong list. You're probably looking for django-users
unless you're interested in the development of the Django framework
itself."

Dave




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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Joe Tyson]

Big bold letters:
*** THIS LIST IS NOT FOR DJANGO HELP - USE DJANGO USERS FOR THAT ***

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Dave Smith  wrote:

> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:49 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>
>>  Add the word "core" to make the first sentence, "Discussion group for
>> Django core developers".
>>
>
> Good idea, but I'd take it step farther. "Core" is just ambiguous enough
> outside the bubble that some people will still stop reading at the first
> sentence, satisfied that they've found the list they're looking for.
>
> How about:
>
>   "You're found the wrong list. You're probably looking for django-users
> unless you're interested in the development of the Django framework itself."
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> >
>

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Dave Smith]

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:49 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:

>  Add the word "core" to make the first sentence, "Discussion group for
> Django core developers".
>

Good idea, but I'd take it step farther. "Core" is just ambiguous enough
outside the bubble that some people will still stop reading at the first
sentence, satisfied that they've found the list they're looking for.

How about:

  "You're found the wrong list. You're probably looking for django-users
unless you're interested in the development of the Django framework itself."

Dave

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Edwin Wong]

Having followed the group here for some time, anybody posting a job
posting or similar off-topic posting tends to be a first time poster,
and in most cases it's very obvious that they never even bothered to
read the group description.  That being the case, I think clarifying
the group description will only have a minimal effect on preventing
off-topic posts.  The good news is that they're pretty uncommon right
now.  Just my two cents,

Edwin

On May 8, 7:49 am, Ned Batchelder  wrote:
> Add the word "core" to make the first sentence, "Discussion group for
> Django core developers".
>
> Not that that will make them read the description, but...
>
> --Ned.
>
>
>
> Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:
> > On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Joshua Partogi  
> > wrote:
>
> >> Some people get confused and thought that this list is for people that
> >> develop apps with django :-D
>
> > Those people might want to take the time to read the list description
> > (http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers) that they see when
> > signing up, which reads:
>
> > """
> > Discussion group for Django developers. This group is used for
> > discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please use
> > django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for
> > the Django user community, outreach, etc.
> > """
>
> > If you've got any suggestions of ways to make that more clear -- other
> > than renaming the list, which isn't going to happen -- I'd love to
> > hear 'em.
>
> > Jacob
>
> --
> Ned Batchelder,http://nedbatchelder.com

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Warren Smith]

>> """
>> Discussion group for Django developers. This group is used for
>> discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please use
>> django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for
>> the Django user community, outreach, etc.
>> """
>>

I agree that all the pertinent information is in there, for those that
bother to read it completely.
However, someone who only bothers to read the first sentence will be misled.

Perhaps something similar to the following would serve us better:
"""
Discussion group for issues regarding the development of the Django
framework itself.
For discussion of issues that involve the entire Django community,
including using the
framework to develop applications, please use django-users.
"""

Just my $.02

-- 
Warren Smith

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Justin Lilly]

As an alternative, we could try FRAMEWORK for extra emphasis. Perhaps  
a bit janky, though.

  -justin



On May 8, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Marty Alchin  wrote:

>
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 7:05 AM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss
>  wrote:
>> """
>> Discussion group for Django developers. This group is used for
>> discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please  
>> use
>> django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for
>> the Django user community, outreach, etc.
>> """
>>
>> If you've got any suggestions of ways to make that more clear --  
>> other
>> than renaming the list, which isn't going to happen -- I'd love to
>> hear 'em.
>
> I'm not sure if it'll actually avoid confusion, but could we just do
> away with the first sentence entirely? After all, even before reading
> the description, they know it's a Google group called
> django-developers. Does the first sentence actually add anything
> useful? That would allow the description to lead off with the actual
> purpose of the group, so hopefully it would do some good.
>
> As for Ned's suggestion of "core", I wonder if that would be better
> suited in the description of what we develop. Maybe something like
> "...discussion of developing the core Django framework..." perhaps?
>
> -Gul
>
> >

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Jerome Leclanche]

Perhaps emphasis on "contributors" rather than "developers"?

J

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Justin Lilly  wrote:
>
> As an alternative, we could try FRAMEWORK for extra emphasis. Perhaps
> a bit janky, though.
>
>  -justin
>
>
>
> On May 8, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Marty Alchin  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 7:05 AM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss
>>  wrote:
>>> """
>>> Discussion group for Django developers. This group is used for
>>> discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please
>>> use
>>> django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for
>>> the Django user community, outreach, etc.
>>> """
>>>
>>> If you've got any suggestions of ways to make that more clear --
>>> other
>>> than renaming the list, which isn't going to happen -- I'd love to
>>> hear 'em.
>>
>> I'm not sure if it'll actually avoid confusion, but could we just do
>> away with the first sentence entirely? After all, even before reading
>> the description, they know it's a Google group called
>> django-developers. Does the first sentence actually add anything
>> useful? That would allow the description to lead off with the actual
>> purpose of the group, so hopefully it would do some good.
>>
>> As for Ned's suggestion of "core", I wonder if that would be better
>> suited in the description of what we develop. Maybe something like
>> "...discussion of developing the core Django framework..." perhaps?
>>
>> -Gul
>>
>> >
>
> >
>



-- 
Adys

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Marty Alchin]

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 7:05 AM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss
 wrote:
> """
> Discussion group for Django developers. This group is used for
> discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please use
> django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for
> the Django user community, outreach, etc.
> """
>
> If you've got any suggestions of ways to make that more clear -- other
> than renaming the list, which isn't going to happen -- I'd love to
> hear 'em.

I'm not sure if it'll actually avoid confusion, but could we just do
away with the first sentence entirely? After all, even before reading
the description, they know it's a Google group called
django-developers. Does the first sentence actually add anything
useful? That would allow the description to lead off with the actual
purpose of the group, so hopefully it would do some good.

As for Ned's suggestion of "core", I wonder if that would be better
suited in the description of what we develop. Maybe something like
"...discussion of developing the core Django framework..." perhaps?

-Gul

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Alex Gaynor]

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:

>  Add the word "core" to make the first sentence, "Discussion group for
> Django core developers".
>
> Not that that will make them read the description, but...
>
> --Ned.
>
> Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Joshua Partogi  
>  wrote:
>
>
>  Some people get confused and thought that this list is for people that
> develop apps with django :-D
>
>
>  Those people might want to take the time to read the list description
> (http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers) that they see when
> signing up, which reads:
>
> """
> Discussion group for Django developers. This group is used for
> discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please use
> django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for
> the Django user community, outreach, etc.
> """
>
> If you've got any suggestions of ways to make that more clear -- other
> than renaming the list, which isn't going to happen -- I'd love to
> hear 'em.
>
> Jacob
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com
>
>
> >
>
I feel like that's a cure worse than the disease, since it seems to imply
that only core developers participate in these discussions, whereas they're
totally public.

Alex

-- 
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it." --Voltaire
"The people's good is the highest law."--Cicero

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Re: Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Ned Batchelder]

Add the word "core" to make the first sentence, "Discussion group for 
Django core developers".

Not that that will make them read the description, but...

--Ned.

Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Joshua Partogi  wrote:
>   
>> Some people get confused and thought that this list is for people that
>> develop apps with django :-D
>> 
>
> Those people might want to take the time to read the list description
> (http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers) that they see when
> signing up, which reads:
>
> """
> Discussion group for Django developers. This group is used for
> discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please use
> django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for
> the Django user community, outreach, etc.
> """
>
> If you've got any suggestions of ways to make that more clear -- other
> than renaming the list, which isn't going to happen -- I'd love to
> hear 'em.
>
> Jacob
>
> >
>
>   

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com


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Posting to the wrong list (was: Re: Need Django Developer urgent)

[Jacob Kaplan-Moss]

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Joshua Partogi  wrote:
> Some people get confused and thought that this list is for people that
> develop apps with django :-D

Those people might want to take the time to read the list description
(http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers) that they see when
signing up, which reads:

"""
Discussion group for Django developers. This group is used for
discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please use
django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for
the Django user community, outreach, etc.
"""

If you've got any suggestions of ways to make that more clear -- other
than renaming the list, which isn't going to happen -- I'd love to
hear 'em.

Jacob

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