[DNG] HPLIP/sane problems with document feeder scanning

[taii...@gmx.com]

When I scan documents via the document feeder the scan head re-docks 
after every page which drastically slows down the process and wears it 
out, in comparison this doesn't happen when you copy something on the 
MFC's front panel. I have had this issue with various models of older hp 
mfc's I have used.


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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[taii...@gmx.com]

Is it possible to print and scan on an older hp network printer without 
hplip/dbus? It supports LPR/PS but I have never been able to get it to 
work properly (ie: with the extra paper trays, duplexer, dpi settings 
etc) are there any good guides for this?

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[terryc]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:25:44 -0400
Menelaos Maglis  wrote:

> > I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.  
> 
> > I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of  
> things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks
> like we are stuck with it.
> 
> I realize that unfortunately one cannot even print without hplip/dbus
> these days...

lprng no longer an option?
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Re: [DNG] Seeding Torrents for Devuan

[terryc]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 22:37:40 -0500
goli...@dyne.org wrote:

>
> Are you saying they are not working?

For me on the East Coast of Australia, the answer was yes.
My post was to check that at least some one was sharing it via
torrent-check.

Since I was able to directly download CD1, I've been able to install it
on the spare hardware I have for the project, then use the
aptitude/apt-get package to the local mirror to update & upgrade and
install deluge, which is now happily downloading the 16Gb torrent.

So the problem is something  with the package in transmission on my
debian stretch boxen. Considering I now have a torrent server on
DevUan, VBG, I don't need to fault-find.

My 2c suggestion is to offer the various bits as separate torrents.
This may result in a few more people being willing to download and try
it.
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Re: [DNG] Seeding Torrents for Devuan

[Gregory Nowak]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 02:24:24PM +1100, terryc wrote:
> Is anyone actually seeding any torrent for Devuan?

Yes, I've been seeding the full torrent for jessie stable since it
became stable. I have also noted that it is uploading from time to
time. I am on a slow connection by today's standards, but even if I'm
the only one seeding it (which I hope isn't the case), you should be
seeing any part of it you try to get coming down slowly.

Greg


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Re: [DNG] Seeding Torrents for Devuan

[golinux]

On 2018-03-14 22:24, terryc wrote:

Is anyone actually seeding any torrent for Devuan?

When the devuan-jessie-beta came out, I attempted to obtain it via
torrent, but it never arrived.

Similar situation the other day when, having spare hardware to finally
set up a devuan beastie, attempting to obtain the devuan-jessie
torrents has nil success.

Meanwhile, the three 9.0.4 DVDs for Debian came down overnight and are
now being seeded beside the FreeBSD, Slackware, 9.0.3 Debian junk other
stuff.
___



Huh?  I have never used a torrent but this is on the devuan.org index 
page with links:


We recommend downloading devuan using our release torrent or magnet 
link. The torrent contains all files for a given release. You can select 
what files to download if you have limited bandwidth or storage. Please 
seed if you can (~15GB)!


Are you saying they are not working?

golinux
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[DNG] Seeding Torrents for Devuan

[terryc]

Is anyone actually seeding any torrent for Devuan?

When the devuan-jessie-beta came out, I attempted to obtain it via
torrent, but it never arrived.

Similar situation the other day when, having spare hardware to finally
set up a devuan beastie, attempting to obtain the devuan-jessie
torrents has nil success.

Meanwhile, the three 9.0.4 DVDs for Debian came down overnight and are
now being seeded beside the FreeBSD, Slackware, 9.0.3 Debian junk other
stuff.
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Ozi Traveller]

I have  Virtualbox working on freebsd.

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 7:52 AM, J. Fahrner  wrote:

> Am 2018-03-14 21:29, schrieb Chillfan:
>
>> Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative
>> to Devuan partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy
>> to accept binary only drivers there.
>>
>
> I have no problem with binary drivers. I am not an ideologist. I like the
> concept that Kernel and User Land are of one piece. Everything centrally
> coordinated, no wild growth as under Linux. Of course, they adapt many
> things from the Linux world, because otherwise many software just would not
> run. Basically, I think BSD is much better. In real operation, however,
> there are 2 problems: many laptop functions are still immature, e.g.
> Suspend / Resume, and the software offering is even worse than under Linux.
> For example, there is no Virtualbox or VMware Player, which is important to
> me for a few Windows programs that do not exist for Linux.
>
> Jochen
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:57:33AM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:49:21AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> >     But here, the device is connected through the network; therefore it
> > cannot communicate through dbus. Dbus is used between two pieces of software
> > running on the system and there are simpler alternatives to this method.
> 
> yeah, namely. Why on Earth do we need dbus to send a print job over
> the network via lpd or http? The real answer is "we don't". The
> effective one is "the developers of hplip don't give a toss".

.oO( and what if local printing is a special case of network (localhost)? )

But then, Wayland.


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⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener.
⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates.
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2018-03-14 21:50, schrieb Arnt Gulbrandsen:

chill...@protonmail.com writes:
lol @ about the browser taking longer to compile.. I have no doubt you 
didn't exaggerate this.


That'll have been Chrome. A giant.


Firefox is not better!
The giant is webkit.
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2018-03-14 21:29, schrieb Chillfan:

Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative
to Devuan partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy
to accept binary only drivers there.


I have no problem with binary drivers. I am not an ideologist. I like 
the concept that Kernel and User Land are of one piece. Everything 
centrally coordinated, no wild growth as under Linux. Of course, they 
adapt many things from the Linux world, because otherwise many software 
just would not run. Basically, I think BSD is much better. In real 
operation, however, there are 2 problems: many laptop functions are 
still immature, e.g. Suspend / Resume, and the software offering is even 
worse than under Linux. For example, there is no Virtualbox or VMware 
Player, which is important to me for a few Windows programs that do not 
exist for Linux.


Jochen
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

chill...@protonmail.com writes:
lol @ about the browser taking longer to compile.. I have no 
doubt you didn't exaggerate this.


That'll have been Chrome. A giant. It includes several compilers and lots 
of libraries. The only things I've seen that are comparable are gcc (over a 
gigabyte of source code when I had to look at it), glibc, llvm and kde. 
Maybe boost. Boost is okay if you have PCH support, but that's rare on 
linux.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Chillfan]

Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative to Devuan 
partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy to accept binary 
only drivers there.

That said there is some simplistic value to freebsd, but they are also using 
dbus where it's not appropriate. I guess that's why you are compiling your own 
software there. My answer to that is if they declare war on blobs and stop 
trying to "be like linux" they'll have a fine OS there.

lol @ about the browser taking longer to compile.. I have no doubt you didn't 
exaggerate this.


​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On 14 March 2018 8:07 PM, J. Fahrner  wrote:

> Am 2018-03-14 20:50, schrieb Chillfan:
> 
> > This is one of the best tear downs of dbus I've seen.
> > 
> > The thinking seems to be based purely on trends, e.g "You guys are
> > 
> > going with dbus, right? OK let's do that." even if it makes no sense
> > 
> > for the use case.
> 
> I'm exactly with you! Last year I tried a switch to FreeBSD, because I
> 
> was not satisfied with Linux. In german we say "Too many cooks spoil the
> 
> broth". That's what I feel with Linux. In FreeBSD you can compile all
> 
> packages from source. I was shocked seeing the compilation of a stupid
> 
> browser takes a multiple of time than the whole rest of the system! Can
> 
> someone explain, why a stupid web browser takes more resources than the
> 
> whole kernel and user space of a unix system? Whats going wrong there???
> 
> I think we should stop this madness! Back to the roots!
> 
> Jochen
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2018-03-14 20:50, schrieb Chillfan:

This is one of the best tear downs of dbus I've seen.

The thinking seems to be based purely on trends, e.g "You guys are
going with dbus, right? OK let's do that." even if it makes no sense
for the use case.


I'm exactly with you! Last year I tried a switch to FreeBSD, because I 
was not satisfied with Linux. In german we say "Too many cooks spoil the 
broth". That's what I feel with Linux. In FreeBSD you can compile all 
packages from source. I was shocked seeing the compilation of a stupid 
browser takes a multiple of time than the whole rest of the system! Can 
someone explain, why a stupid web browser takes more resources than the 
whole kernel and user space of a unix system? Whats going wrong there???


I think we should stop this madness! Back to the roots!

Jochen
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Re: [DNG] firmware missing in live iso

[David Hoff Jr]

I have had similar problems with both Debian and Devuan.  I Have to
Belkin USB Wireless Adapters and a couple others which were not
recognized by the installer.  Finally found the D-Link DWA-140 USB
Wireless Adapter which was immediatley recognized by the installer and
is still working very well.
-- 
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Re: [DNG] Install experiments with FAT partition sda1

[dan pridgeon]

Thanks. I'll have to learn how to do that.

  From: "taii...@gmx.com" 
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org 
 Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 2:30 AM
 Subject: Re: [DNG] Install experiments with FAT partition sda1
   
Hey instead of dual booting you can use IOMMU-GFX to have a VM with a 
graphics card (and then use a KVM switch) I do this and it is great (can 
play video games without letting windows access my bare metal or having 
to reboot etc)
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

J. Fahrner writes:
That's also what I do. I have a Brother DCP-7045N connected as 
network printer with lpd protocol. I can install it with a 
single ppd file, but then printing is VERY SLOW. Printing is 
fast with the Brother supplied "cupswrapper" driver, but this is 
only available as 32bit package, and that is ugly on a 64bit 
system. Has someone hints how to debug the issue with slow 
printing using only the ppd description (without cupswrapper)?
The cups structure seems very complex to me, and I don't know 
where to start.


It is very complex, hardly anyone need all of what cups offers. Try these:

curl http://rant.gulbrandsen.priv.no/dl/test.ps | lpr

curl http://rant.gulbrandsen.priv.no/dl/test.ps | lpr -o raw

Is the first print job slow and the second fast? If so, cups is doing work 
you don't need. If not, it's something else. Are both slow or both fast?


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2018-03-14 13:05, schrieb Simon Hobson:

FWIW, while it generally costs more, I've always (both for work and
home) tried to stick to Postscript [compatible] printers.


That's also what I do. I have a Brother DCP-7045N connected as network 
printer with lpd protocol. I can install it with a single ppd file, but 
then printing is VERY SLOW. Printing is fast with the Brother supplied 
"cupswrapper" driver, but this is only available as 32bit package, and 
that is ugly on a 64bit system. Has someone hints how to debug the issue 
with slow printing using only the ppd description (without cupswrapper)?
The cups structure seems very complex to me, and I don't know where to 
start.


Jochen
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Menelaos Maglis]

> It's $%@#$!@#$!@# annoying when people come afterwards and explain how
simple a task is, and clearly have no idea about the complexities and
problems.

> Maybe d-bus is a poor fit for hplip. I don't know and I suspect you don't
either.

We do. Although the word "simple" is not the main point, I see it tripped you. 
I apologize.

Simple is the result of the hard work of people, I assume like you, put on a 
complex and difficult task.

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Simon Hobson]

Arnt Gulbrandsen  wrote:

> FWIW, other printers are handled using some other IPC protocol. Same 
> information sent back and forth, but a different socket and protocol. My 
> Brother MFC8880 uses IPP and... I forget the name of the other protocol.

FWIW, while it generally costs more, I've always (both for work and home) tried 
to stick to Postscript [compatible] printers. With a well written single 
driver, you can print to ANY Postscript driver and get the same result subject 
to the capabilities of the printer - none of this having to know the resolution 
like with HPGL. By adding a capabilities file, you can intelligently use the 
features that are available - that's how the Mac "LaserWriter" driver worked, 
all you needed was a '.ppc' file to use printer specific capabilities.


You can also, with a little effort, modify the print job between source and 
printer. One time (on a SCO OpenServer system we ran the company on), I 
redefined the showpage operator at the beginning of certain jobs so that 
printed faxes would have a header (date, time, phone number) with the text 
outlined in white so as to still be readable if over a black background. That's 
a darned lot harder to do with an HPGL job.

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:11:23AM +, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Some things not mentioned today: Problems because rendering whole pages to
> bitmaps on the client needs so much RAM that the UI grows unresponsive,
> other problems if the client renders the pages in sequence to save RAM and
> the user closes the laptop once the first page starts printing, yet other
> problems if the printer runs out of RAM while rendering the current page
> because it's allocated too much RAM to buffering giant subsequent pages, yet
> other problems if the printer driver avoids using bitmaps and the printer
> firmware misrenders an embedded font.
> 
> It's $%@#$!@#$!@# annoying when people come afterwards and explain how
> simple a task is, and clearly have no idea about the complexities and
> problems.
> 
> Maybe d-bus is a poor fit for hplip. I don't know and I suspect you don't
> either.
> 

My poor understanding of the matter is that the dbus dependency is
necessary mainly to let fancy GUI applications talk to hplip, and to
obey "session-related" policies, not for hplip to do anything in
particular with the print job. And I could not imagine hplip needing
dbus to do anything at all with a job to be sent over the network
(i.e., not to the USB printer attached to the same host that talked to
hplip).

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Menelaos Maglis (mmag...@metacom.gr):

> So I am left with below choices:
> 
> * Accept no printing
> * Accept HPLIP+D-Bus if possible
> * Fork and change HPLIP or develop something new to do the job, if I have the 
> abilities/motivation.
> 
> At least this is an option in free software world.

As a reminder, HPLIP isn't actually even open source.  It's open _core_.
This matter is frequently misunderstood, and HP actively participates in
misleading people in many individual ways including the domain name of
the upstream developer site, http://hplipopensource.com/ .  

(Ah, I see that is now a redirect to
https://developers.hp.com/hp-linux-imaging-and-printing .  That's
relatively new.)

HP does a bait and switch concerning this matter, whereby, yes, the core
engine of HPLIP is a stew of code (mostly Python) under GPL, MIT, and
BSD-ish licences, and the filter ('driver') modules for many old and
low-end HP printer models are likewise, but the codebase is totally
useless for _most_ HP printer models without huge proprietary BLOBs,
containing HP's 'secret sauces' and almost all of the effort and
complexity.  This is one of the main reasons why, for decades, HP
printers have, in general, been a bottom-of-the-barrel choice for free
software / open source reasons.

I distinctly remember, when the omnibus HPLIP project was new and the
http://hplipopensource.com/ , thinking 'Hurrah!  HP is seeing the light
and fully supporting Linux and open source.'  HP was sending engineers
to Linux Printing Summits, and we all smiled and thought, 'See?  This is
how progress happens.'

And then, a bunch of us looked closer.  One of the turning points was we
started asking, 'Hey, this is supposed to be open source and even
bundled right _in_ Linux distributions as distro packages, so, _why_ is
it that the first thing that happens when you configure a printer in
HPLIP is that HPLIP says "You're going to have to download file $FOO
from HP's public site"?'  And the answer was:  Because the allegedly
open source nature was a sham and a con job.

My constant, frank advice to Linux users ever since, and that was a
couple of decades ago, has been 'Never buy HP printers, with very rare
exceptions, to use with Linux.  If stuck with one, again with very rare
exceptions, sell it to some other poor slob.'

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it's testimony to just how
thoroughly HP conned the Linux world that, decades further on, many of
my Linux friends are still catching up with that bad news.


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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Didier Kryn writes:
Do you remember any of these comics where the driver of a 
car opens the motor to repair, throws away a bunch of parts, and 
then the engine starts again and the guy goes away with the car? 
Here we are with Linux. The BIG piece to remove was systemd, but 
there are quite a few others... follow my eyes.


Be careful that you don't end up one of those backseat drivers who explain 
afterwards that implementing this or that should've been simple because 
obviously blah blah. Those people are terribly annoying to developers 
who've spent weeks or months battling tricky issues, trying to make the 
code work in many cases, for many users.


Some things not mentioned today: Problems because rendering whole pages to 
bitmaps on the client needs so much RAM that the UI grows unresponsive, 
other problems if the client renders the pages in sequence to save RAM and 
the user closes the laptop once the first page starts printing, yet other 
problems if the printer runs out of RAM while rendering the current page 
because it's allocated too much RAM to buffering giant subsequent pages, 
yet other problems if the printer driver avoids using bitmaps and the 
printer firmware misrenders an embedded font.


It's $%@#$!@#$!@# annoying when people come afterwards and explain how 
simple a task is, and clearly have no idea about the complexities and 
problems.


Maybe d-bus is a poor fit for hplip. I don't know and I suspect you don't 
either.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] firmware missing in live iso

[Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 09:46:43 +
KatolaZ  wrote:

> if the firwmare is not pulled in by the firmware-linux-nonfree package
> (i.e., if it is not in firmware-misc-nonfree), then it's not there.

Grovelling apologies. Stupid mistake, mislabelled USB drive, was trying with a 
Debian iso.

And the Debian logo did not register, as I see it under Devuan every time I log 
in...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
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  who put fasting on the meat, and not on the drink.
  -- Irish toast

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Didier Kryn]

Le 14/03/2018 à 11:29, Florian Zieboll a écrit :

Hallo Didier,

just to avoid confusion: this was not my point, but Menelaos Maglis's. I just 
tried to figure out that the basics of printing (like most things in computong) 
are a quite simple thing: pushing ones and zeroes.

Besides that: Of course, in bandwidth-limited environments, it is more effective 
to send some (K)B of vectors over the network, than a >15MB bitmap 
(letter@only1200dpi) to print the usually quite empty page 2 of some essay and let 
the printer do the rendering.

I guess that's part of why we are here: To restore the original meaning of 
"economical":-)


    I think we all agree there.

    Do you remember any of these comics where the driver of a car opens 
the motor to repair, throws away a bunch of parts, and then the engine 
starts again and the guy goes away with the car? Here we are with Linux. 
The BIG piece to remove was systemd, but there are quite a few others... 
follow my eyes.


    There are alternatives to communicating through dbus. If two 
processes are necessary, a socket or a pipe can do it. If more 
structured communication is necessary and you don't need two processes 
(why would you in this case), other famous applications use a kind of 
dynamically linked libraries (plugins).


    Didier


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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Menelaos Maglis writes:
Why should an application need a system bus to pass messages 
between its own components? CUPS is not using D-Bus and is able 
to print to other printers; only HPLIP uses D-bus, so far as I 
am aware. Why not keep using the same method/interfaces that are 
proven for decades? What is the benefit? How are printers from 
other manufacturers supported? 


FWIW, other printers are handled using some other IPC protocol. Same 
information sent back and forth, but a different socket and protocol. My 
Brother MFC8880 uses IPP and... I forget the name of the other protocol.


Many HP printers can also be handled witout hplip. If you absolutely want 
something from HP, the M506dn looks like a fine printer that ought to work 
reliably for many years without peculiar host software.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Didier Kryn]

Le 14/03/2018 à 10:54, KatolaZ a écrit :

we are losing most of the original simplicity of
Linux (effectively fucking up the only users who care about Linux),
just to serve users that will never use Linux on their desktops


    Very well said!


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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Florian Zieboll]

Am 14. März 2018 10:49:21 MEZ schrieb Didier Kryn :
> 
>      Dear Florian, I agree with you that it is nice to enable the 
> software to ask the devices what their properties are, by some
> protocol. 
 

Hallo Didier, 

just to avoid confusion: this was not my point, but Menelaos Maglis's. I just 
tried to figure out that the basics of printing (like most things in computong) 
are a quite simple thing: pushing ones and zeroes.

Besides that: Of course, in bandwidth-limited environments, it is more 
effective to send some (K)B of vectors over the network, than a >15MB bitmap 
(letter@only1200dpi) to print the usually quite empty page 2 of some essay and 
let the printer do the rendering. 

I guess that's part of why we are here: To restore the original meaning of 
"economical" :-)

libre Grüße,

Florian


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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 schrieb Menelaos Maglis:
> > Can't ask users about such
> tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you
> can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its
> users know about it.
> 
> D-Bus is used for communication between processes. So the configuration and 
> operation of a printer is split between several different components, which 
> use D-Bus to communicate with each other.
> 
> I question this architecture. Why should an application need a system bus to 
> pass messages between its own components? CUPS is not using D-Bus and is able 
> to print to other printers; only HPLIP uses D-bus, so far as I am aware. Why 
> not keep using the same method/interfaces that are proven for decades? What 
> is the benefit? How are printers from other manufacturers supported?
> 
> Above architecture /may/ be beneficial to a number of use cases. E.g. 
> interactive desktop users that want also a simple GUI tool in an integrated 
> desktop environment. Imposing a hard dependency on an additional component 
> (D-Bus) may not server other use cases well or at all if they cannot use 
> D-Bus.
> 
> So I am left with below choices:
> 
> * Accept no printing
> * Accept HPLIP+D-Bus if possible
> * Fork and change HPLIP or develop something new to do the job, if I have the 
> abilities/motivation.
> 
> At least this is an option in free software world.

Well, HP printers suffer from planed oobsolescence, so you can sit out the 
problem. Just don't replace a HP by an other HP ...

nik


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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

kato...@freaknet.org writes:

yeah, namely. Why on Earth do we need dbus to send a print job over
the network via lpd or http? The real answer is "we don't". The
effective one is "the developers of hplip don't give a toss".


Yet another answer is: The developers don't see another way that's both 
implemented and so much better that it's worth bothering about.


(I'm using a computer with 16 GB RAM and four CPU cores to type a couple of 
parapgraphs of text now. Ridiculously overpowered for such a simple task. 
But I have the computer in my office, why should I bother to use anything 
less?)


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:49:21AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:

[cut]

> 
>     Dear Florian, I agree with you that it is nice to enable the software to
> ask the devices what their properties are, by some protocol. This is nice
> for the dummy/lazzy user we are all up to some point.
> 
>     But here, the device is connected through the network; therefore it
> cannot communicate through dbus. Dbus is used between two pieces of software
> running on the system and there are simpler alternatives to this method.
> 

yeah, namely. Why on Earth do we need dbus to send a print job over
the network via lpd or http? The real answer is "we don't". The
effective one is "the developers of hplip don't give a toss".

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 05:45:54AM -0400, Menelaos Maglis wrote:
> > Can't ask users about such
> tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you
> can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its
> users know about it.
> 
> D-Bus is used for communication between processes. So the configuration and 
> operation of a printer is split between several different components, which 
> use D-Bus to communicate with each other.
> 
> I question this architecture. Why should an application need a system bus to 
> pass messages between its own components? CUPS is not using D-Bus and is able 
> to print to other printers; only HPLIP uses D-bus, so far as I am aware. Why 
> not keep using the same method/interfaces that are proven for decades? What 
> is the benefit? How are printers from other manufacturers supported?

You should complain with the developers of hplip. The madness about
using heavy frameworks for IPC seems contagious. For some reason,
nobody can write a program that uses standard text interfaces any
more. 

> 
> Above architecture /may/ be beneficial to a number of use cases. E.g. 
> interactive desktop users that want also a simple GUI tool in an integrated 
> desktop environment. Imposing a hard dependency on an additional component 
> (D-Bus) may not server other use cases well or at all if they cannot use 
> D-Bus.
> 
> So I am left with below choices:
> 
> * Accept no printing
> * Accept HPLIP+D-Bus if possible
> * Fork and change HPLIP or develop something new to do the job, if I have the 
> abilities/motivation.
> 
> At least this is an option in free software world.

The problem is that a huge fraction of Linux vendors still believe
that "This is the year of Linux on desktops" (something we have been
told since around 2005, I guess). Or they simply decide to cover up
poor architecture designs by false promises.

The result is that we are losing most of the original simplicity of
Linux (effectively fucking up the only users who care about Linux),
just to serve users that will never use Linux on their desktops
anyway.

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Didier Kryn]

Le 14/03/2018 à 09:44, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit :

Didier Kryn writes:
    You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's essential, 
isn't it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal computer probably 
with the first McIntosh, in 1982. Not sure it's more 
feature-rich today than 10 years ago, when it wasn't depending on 
dbus.


I wrote a printer driver back then. It used user-bus. "Tell me, dear 
user, whether the printer has and supports. A4 or funny american 
paper? Duplex?"


If I were more ambitious I'd have asked more complicated questions. 
For example, if you want to avoid printer firmware bugs it's generally 
smart to send a large bitmap, but if you aim for high quality output 
and a high page rate, you want to avoid sending bitmaps. Can't ask 
users about such tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to 
answer. These days you can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer 
knows more about itself than its users know about it. 


    Dear Florian, I agree with you that it is nice to enable the 
software to ask the devices what their properties are, by some protocol. 
This is nice for the dummy/lazzy user we are all up to some point.


    But here, the device is connected through the network; therefore it 
cannot communicate through dbus. Dbus is used between two pieces of 
software running on the system and there are simpler alternatives to 
this method.


        Didier

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Re: [DNG] firmware missing in live iso

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 06:22:36AM -0300, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:
> Been toying with the jessie_1.0.0_amd64_minimal-live.iso.
> 
> The box I am playing with uses a rather common Ralink RT2870 USB wifi dongle 
> which works out without problem with a PCLinuxOS live iso on this same box, 
> or with Rasvuan on my Raspberry-Pi.
> 
> Here with the Devuan-live iso, I get no wireless network, with the indication 
> "device not ready (firmware missing)".
> 
> And of course, I cannot get the firmware without a network connection.
> 
> An oversight ?
>  

Hi Ron,

if the firwmare is not pulled in by the firmware-linux-nonfree package
(i.e., if it is not in firmware-misc-nonfree), then it's not there.

HTH

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Menelaos Maglis]

> Can't ask users about such
tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you
can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its
users know about it.

D-Bus is used for communication between processes. So the configuration and 
operation of a printer is split between several different components, which use 
D-Bus to communicate with each other.

I question this architecture. Why should an application need a system bus to 
pass messages between its own components? CUPS is not using D-Bus and is able 
to print to other printers; only HPLIP uses D-bus, so far as I am aware. Why 
not keep using the same method/interfaces that are proven for decades? What is 
the benefit? How are printers from other manufacturers supported?

Above architecture /may/ be beneficial to a number of use cases. E.g. 
interactive desktop users that want also a simple GUI tool in an integrated 
desktop environment. Imposing a hard dependency on an additional component 
(D-Bus) may not server other use cases well or at all if they cannot use D-Bus.

So I am left with below choices:

* Accept no printing
* Accept HPLIP+D-Bus if possible
* Fork and change HPLIP or develop something new to do the job, if I have the 
abilities/motivation.

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[DNG] firmware missing in live iso

[Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI]

Been toying with the jessie_1.0.0_amd64_minimal-live.iso.

The box I am playing with uses a rather common Ralink RT2870 USB wifi dongle 
which works out without problem with a PCLinuxOS live iso on this same box, or 
with Rasvuan on my Raspberry-Pi.

Here with the Devuan-live iso, I get no wireless network, with the indication 
"device not ready (firmware missing)".

And of course, I cannot get the firmware without a network connection.

An oversight ?
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
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   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Didier Kryn writes:
You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's 
essential, isn't it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal 
computer probably with the first McIntosh, in 1982. Not 
sure it's more feature-rich today than 10 years ago, when it 
wasn't depending on dbus.


I wrote a printer driver back then. It used user-bus. "Tell me, dear user, 
whether the printer has and supports. A4 or funny american paper? Duplex?"


If I were more ambitious I'd have asked more complicated questions. For 
example, if you want to avoid printer firmware bugs it's generally smart to 
send a large bitmap, but if you aim for high quality output and a high page 
rate, you want to avoid sending bitmaps. Can't ask users about such 
tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you 
can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its 
users know about it.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Menelaos Maglis]

> > "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.

> Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your 
> document (or four im case of color printing) and send it to the printer. Many 
> printers (like my Oki B430dn) even accept ftp upload of correctly resolved 
> bitmaps.

I agree there. Printing on paper is a " done" task.

That was not really my argument. I do not see the reason to /require/ dbus to 
be able to simply print to a huge class of devices (HP). Especially after 
decades of printing without it.

If you have a system use case without dbus, then you cannot print. This is 
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Florian Zieboll]

Am 14. März 2018 09:29:08 MEZ schrieb Florian Zieboll :
> 
> Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your
> document (or four im case of color printing) and send it to the
> printer. Many printers (like my Oki B430dn) even accept ftp upload of
> correctly resolved bitmaps

s/resolved/RIP'ed/

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Didier Kryn]

Le 14/03/2018 à 08:45, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit :

"Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.


    You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's essential, isn't 
it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal computer probably with the 
first McIntosh, in 1982. Not sure it's more feature-rich today 
than 10 years ago, when it wasn't depending on dbus.


    Didier


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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Florian Zieboll]

Am 14. März 2018 08:45:00 MEZ schrieb Arnt Gulbrandsen 
:
> 
> "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.


Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your document 
(or four im case of color printing) and send it to the printer. Many printers 
(like my Oki B430dn) even accept ftp upload of correctly resolved bitmaps.

libre Grüße,

Florian


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Re: [DNG] Install experiments with FAT partition sda1

[taii...@gmx.com]

Hey instead of dual booting you can use IOMMU-GFX to have a VM with a 
graphics card (and then use a KVM switch) I do this and it is great (can 
play video games without letting windows access my bare metal or having 
to reboot etc)

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Menelaos Maglis]

> I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.

> I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of
things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks
like we are stuck with it.

I realize that unfortunately one cannot even print without hplip/dbus these 
days...

> Apart from being unable to print, what happens in your system without
elogind or the various 'pam' things that need dbus?

> What are you using instead of them?

For display manager you are left with either xdm or wdm. Alternatively, strartx 
from the console.

There are a number of dbus-free window managers eg. openbox, i3

Check:

https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/devuan-without-dbus.md

https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/dbus-free-software.md

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