Re: [DNG] Devuan on a librem5
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 00:34:58 +, Daniel wrote in message <5a3caca3-ebb2-9ab9-014d-0fe49f6f1...@danielabrecht.ch>: > On 18/11/2018 00.45, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > ..you want to do a separate "make repo" and a "make clean-repo-too", > > and possibly move the repo out of the build/ tree, say, to repo/ or > > repos/ if you have multiple repos now or later. > > Ok, all git repos are now cloned into the repo/ folder. I've also > added a few more make targets for resetting, removing and cloning > repos, and some other stuff. ..sweet. > > ..another tip is run your own lan repo mirror and point REPO = > > there, that way you can feed _several_ build boxes cheaply. > > I already use a local mirror for the devuan packages for the > debootstrapping part and some other stuff, but thanks for the > suggestion. ..you mirror straight off http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged/, or off http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/ and pull some amprolla style stunt? ..me, I mirror http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/ and Debian's amd64, i386, hurd-i386 and source (and will add kfreebsd-amd64, kfreebsd-i386 once I have the disk space) and plan to pull some stunts to see which way is easier to build a merged/ mirror, amprolla, symlink scripts controlled by https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt etc, once I get around to it. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 20:52:26 +, Simon wrote in message <3a91e5c4-1603-40b5-b560-3f8bc8945...@thehobsons.co.uk>: > goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > > So . . . if the choice to avoid the merge is only available > > with debian-installer what does that mean for the live isos? Will > > they be configured with or without the merge as default? > > Does it make any difference at all on a live ISO ? If it's setup > merged, then anything referencing /bin (etc) will follow the symlink > and access /usr/bin (etc). However, as the default for Devuan seems > likely to be unmerged, then it would make sense for the live ISOs to > be the same. Scripts etc will have to be written to deal with the > unmerged (split) layout so nothing should break that way - unless the > script is written by someone assuming that nothing in the world runs > unsplit any more. Any such scripts will need fixing to run on > installed systems anyway, so would then run on a live ISO with split > directories. ..worth noting here that some like to use live iso|usb to rescue systems, or even as system installers, so our live iso|usbs should be like our target systems. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] initramfs?
Sorry to disappoint you, but it Just Doesn't Work. On 18/11/18 at 10:18, aitor_czr wrote: > > Hendrik, you can uncompress the content of the initrd.img by the > following way: > > 1) Rename it to initrd.gz and use gunzip: > > # mv initrd.img initrd.gz > # gunzip initrd.gz 1) You assume the initramfs was compressed with gzip. This is the default, but it could be changed in /etc/initramfs-tools/initramfs.conf setting, for instance, COMPRESS=xz. 2) initramfs is actually formed of two cpio archives: a small, uncompressed one that is followed by a compressed one. [alessandro@wkstn05 ~]$ file /boot/initrd.img-4.18.0-0.bpo.1-amd64 /boot/initrd.img-4.18.0-0.bpo.1-amd64: ASCII cpio archive (SVR4 with no CRC) [alessandro@wkstn05 ~]$ mkdir /tmp/initramfs [alessandro@wkstn05 ~]$ cd /tmp/initramfs [alessandro@wkstn05 initramfs]$ cpio -vi < /boot/initrd.img-4.18.0-0.bpo.1-amd64 kernel kernel/x86 kernel/x86/microcode kernel/x86/microcode/.enuineIntel.align.0123456789abc cpio: kernel/x86/microcode/GenuineIntel.bin not created: newer or same age version exists kernel/x86/microcode/GenuineIntel.bin 28 blocks [alessandro@wkstn05 initramfs]$ 28 blocks are 14 KiB, a very small part of the 5,4M initrd.img-4.18.0-0.bpo.1-amd64 file. > 2) After that, you can extract the files using cpio: > > # mkdir tmp > # cd tmp > # cpio -id < ../initrd The rest of the initramfs are in a compressed archive that starts after the 28th block (in my case). To get that archive you have to extract it from the 29th block on: [alessandro@wkstn05 initramfs]$ dd if=/boot/initrd.img-4.18.0-0.bpo.1-amd64 skip=28 of=/tmp/initrd.img-4.18.0-0.bpo.1-amd64.cpio.xz 11012+1 record dentro 11012+1 record fuori 5638392 bytes (5,6 MB, 5,4 MiB) copied, 0,0228946 s, 246 MB/s [alessandro@wkstn05 initramfs]$ file /tmp/initrd.img-4.18.0-0.bpo.1-amd64.cpio.xz /tmp/initrd.img-4.18.0-0.bpo.1-amd64.cpio.xz: XZ compressed data [alessandro@wkstn05 initramfs]$ > > 3) Look at the content (in this case is the initrd.img of > debian-installer): > > # ls > bin conf etc init lib sbin scripts usr Right now I only have: [alessandro@wkstn05 initramfs]$ ls -R .: kernel ./kernel: x86 ./kernel/x86: microcode ./kernel/x86/microcode: GenuineIntel.bin [alessandro@wkstn05 initramfs]$ To extract the rest of the initramfs you decompress the second part of the file and feed it to cpio: [alessandro@wkstn05 initramfs]$ xz -dc /tmp/initrd.img-4.18.0-0.bpo.1-amd64.cpio.xz | cpio -iv [alessandro@wkstn05 initramfs]$ . lib64 lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 init scripts scripts/init-top scripts/init-top/ORDER scripts/init-top/udev scripts/init-top/blacklist scripts/init-top/keymap scripts/init-top/all_generic_ide scripts/functions scripts/local scripts/nfs scripts/init-bottom scripts/init-bottom/ORDER scripts/init-bottom/udev scripts/local-premount scripts/local-premount/ORDER [...] cpio: bin/busybox linked to bin/cat cpio: bin/busybox linked to bin/cal cpio: bin/busybox linked to bin/bzip2 cpio: bin/busybox linked to bin/bzcat cpio: bin/busybox linked to bin/bunzip2 cpio: bin/busybox linked to bin/basename cpio: bin/busybox linked to bin/awk cpio: bin/busybox linked to bin/ash cpio: bin/busybox linked to bin/ar cpio: bin/busybox linked to bin/[[ cpio: bin/busybox linked to bin/[ bin/busybox bin/udevadm bin/loadkeys bin/cryptroot-unlock bin/kmod 40012 blocks [alessandro@wkstn05 initramfs]$ 40.012 blocks are 20MiB. This works in my Devuan Ascii, but didn't work on a colleague's Ubuntu 18.something. > > 4) Now you can modify the content of the initrd, and generate the new > initrd in the parent directory: > > # find . | cpio --create --format='newc' > ../newinitrd > > Compress it with gzip and rename it to initrd.img > > And ready :) > > Aitor. And I end up with an unbootable system. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on a librem5
On 18/11/2018 00.45, Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..you want to do a separate "make repo" and a "make clean-repo-too", and possibly move the repo out of the build/ tree, say, to repo/ or repos/ if you have multiple repos now or later. Ok, all git repos are now cloned into the repo/ folder. I've also added a few more make targets for resetting, removing and cloning repos, and some other stuff. ..another tip is run your own lan repo mirror and point REPO = there, that way you can feed _several_ build boxes cheaply. I already use a local mirror for the devuan packages for the debootstrapping part and some other stuff, but thanks for the suggestion. Regards, Daniel Abrecht ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 18/11/18 01:24, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 09:14:06PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > > [cut] > >> >> # Those are a non-serious suggestion and a rethorical question, in case >> # that didn't come across. >> >> So, I'm against a *forced* /usr merge. I hope Debian does the right >> thing but if necessary, I would like to see Devuan correct the wrong. >> However, let's focus on init freedom (and beowulf) first! >> > > The current default in debootstrap from Debian is to merge /usr, so > buster installs will have /usr merged. This is not a problem at all > for Devuan atm, since we forked debootstrap and base-installer and can > act there to put back the default to non-merged /usr in Beowulf, > leaving the option to the user to choose otherwise. > > More choice == more freedom ;) > > HND > > KatolaZ I concur, for the purely practical reason that switching to a merged /usr is trivial, but switching back is a horrible process of unwinding all those symlinks - probably easier to reinstall. -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 2018年11月17日 20:57:23 JST, Alessandro Selli wrote: >On 16/11/18 at 11:43, KatolaZ wrote: >> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 10:19:30AM +, Rowland Penny wrote: >> >> [cut] >> >>> So, after reading Steve's enlightening description, I am with him, >the >>> merge is only needed by systemd and seems to be a way of forcing it >on >>> everybody, so I am against it. >>> >> It would be actually more productive to base this discussion on solid >> technical arguments. > > > I am one of those who can't do without initramfs because I mostly run >GNU/Linux on laptops and for obvious security reasons they all run on >fully encrypted filesystems, / included. > > However I do loath the / and /usr merge. I find it irritating that I >am asked to provide with sound technical reasons to keep the two >filesystems separated as I needed to justify 4 decades of sound >sysadminiship practice when it's the [cut] > >The "good reasons to keep things the way they" are have been enumerated >several times, but I'm happy to list them again: > > >1) complexity and bloat are the key enemies of resiliency; > >2) the smaller the most critical OS components are, the more solid the >whole system is; > >3) the smaller / is the easier it is to repair, to secure and audit, to >provide with alternative boot paths/rescue procedures; > >4) merging / with /usr takes away significant degrees of freedom in >customization and hacking into one's own system and GNU/Linux owes much >of it's fortune in being a hacker-friendly system that is easy to >customize, even to the extremes. > > [cut] Hi, I am against the merge for the same reasons as above. Resiliency and modularity are important. Bye, ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] /usr merged or not in live images, was: Re: /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 02:29:43PM -0600, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > So . . . if the choice to avoid the merge is only available with > debian-installer what does that mean for the live isos? Will they be > configured with or without the merge as default? That's a decision that > needs to be discussed too. Since we're already bucking debian's trends, and can buck this one easily, why not have the live images with an unmerged /usr? Not technically oriented reasoning on my part, but there you have it. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] English grammar.
On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 10:11:50AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Changed the subject to a more appropriate one. You should have split the thread too, assuming your MUA supports that. Doing so starting with this post. It would be appreciated if we can please keep the replies in a thread properly split from the usr merge thread, so that those of us who don't want to participate in this one don't have to sort out one thread from another. Thank you. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
goli...@dyne.org wrote: > So . . . if the choice to avoid the merge is only available with > debian-installer what does that mean for the live isos? Will they be > configured with or without the merge as default? Does it make any difference at all on a live ISO ? If it's setup merged, then anything referencing /bin (etc) will follow the symlink and access /usr/bin (etc). However, as the default for Devuan seems likely to be unmerged, then it would make sense for the live ISOs to be the same. Scripts etc will have to be written to deal with the unmerged (split) layout so nothing should break that way - unless the script is written by someone assuming that nothing in the world runs unsplit any more. Any such scripts will need fixing to run on installed systems anyway, so would then run on a live ISO with split directories. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] initramfs?
Aitor: ... > Hendrik, you can uncompress the content of the initrd.img by the > following way: > > 1) Rename it to initrd.gz and use gunzip: > > # mv initrd.img initrd.gz > # gunzip initrd.gz > > 2) After that, you can extract the files using cpio: > > # mkdir tmp > # cd tmp > # cpio -id < ../initrd Wich is the same as mkdir tmp cd tmp zcat ../initrd.img | cpio -id so you don't have to rename the .img file, less typing. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 2018-11-18 02:32, KatolaZ wrote: Besides the drama: we built yesterday a preliminary version of the debian-installer for beowulf which has an explicit opt-in question for usrmerge: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/ and defaults to the classical behaviour (/bin and /sbin proper folders under /). Please use the mini.iso, and do not report any bug related to desktop thingies not working, since elogind and polkit-stuff are not there yet. Regards KatolaZ So . . . if the choice to avoid the merge is only available with debian-installer what does that mean for the live isos? Will they be configured with or without the merge as default? That's a decision that needs to be discussed too. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] English grammar.
On 18/11/18 at 17:11, Rowland Penny wrote: > No it isn't, 'has been' means in the past 'to be' means in the the > future, as in 'has been seen' and 'to be seen'. > > But what do I know, I have only been speaking English for the last 62 > years, ever since I moved on from 'goo-goo-gaga' baby talk ;-) > > Rowland Can't take any more of it! Shall we go back quarreling about systemd/ filesystem merge, pleazee? -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] English grammar.
On 18/11/18 at 16:11, Hendrik Boom wrote: > 'has been' is a perfect tense for 'to be'. Combined with the *past* > participle of "cheered", it makes a passive verb. And I thought Perl was a mess... -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] English grammar.
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 16:11:38 +, Rowland wrote in message
<20181118161138.22cb1...@devstation.samdom.example.com>:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:11:50 -0500
> Hendrik Boom wrote:
>
> > Changed the subject to a more appropriate one.
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 01:52:01PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> > > On 18/11/18 at 13:36, Rowland Penny wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 13:24:51 +0100
> > > > Alessandro Selli wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On 18/11/18 at 10:46, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past
> > > >>> already and it does not determine the future.
> > > >> Maybe not. If my English Grammar is still worth the
> > > >> schoolbook paper it was printed on, "has been" is the Present
> > > >> Continuous Tense, that is used "to express the idea that
> > > >> something is happening now, at this very moment. It can also
> > > >> be used to show that something is not happening now."
> > > >>
> > > >> So, the main use is for "something is happening now",
> > > >> sometimes for "something [that] is not happening now."
> > > >>
> > > > Nope, your schoolbook paper wasn't worth the paper it was
> > > > written on ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > > All right, I checked it and indeed I remembered wrong. The
> > > Present Continuous Tense if formed by the Present Tense of "be"
> > > followed by a Present Participle. In this case we have the
> > > Present Tense of "have" ("has") followed by the Present
> > > Participle of "be" ("been"). Which means that KatolaZ used the
> > > Present Perfect tense, which is used to express "an action
> > > happened at an unspecified time before now."
> >
> > What we have here is the passive perfect tense
> >
> > >> This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence
> > >> in debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and
> > >> personal
> > > The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past
> > > already and it does not determine the
> > > future.
> >
> > 'has been' is a perfect tense for 'to be'. Combined with the
> > *past* participle of "cheered", it makes a passive verb.
> >
>
> No it isn't, 'has been' means in the past 'to be' means in the the
> future, as in 'has been seen' and 'to be seen'.
>
> But what do I know, I have only been speaking English for the last 62
> years, ever since I moved on from 'goo-goo-gaga' baby talk ;-)
>
> Rowland
..me, I totally boycotted grammar, took me about 30 years to see it
could be useful in news text trawling AI online, I was shown a java
demo on a few web articles on Clinton and the Starr-"investigation",
and named what I saw "associative grammar", on how that java demo
"understood" "there was something wrong about POTUS-42 and Monica",
a sort of output that can be useful in Wall Street AI, given decent
input. Was meant as an upgrade to "picking words" there, and I was
shown it to stop me growling at the author for wasting time on java
grammar programming, instead of on my thermochemical gasifier. ;o)
--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Hi, On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 at 12:11, Daniel Reurich wrote: > Hi Devuan followers, fans and friends, > > Debian as of the upcoming Buster release looks to be implementing a > merged /usr by default. At this stage there is no plan to make it > forced... but you never know what happens when their Technical Committee > suddenly decides it's an issue they need to force a decision on... > > So... for Devuan, do we want to default to a merged /usr in our coming > release of Beowulf or are we going to resist another pointless > rearranging of the deck chairs... > > Keen to get some feedback on this > I would vote for separate /usr as this is useful for diskless boot which will allow mounting /usr later from NFS storage, for example. -- Regards, Yevgeny ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] English grammar.
On 11/18/2018 11:11 AM, Rowland Penny wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:11:50 -0500
Hendrik Boom wrote:
Changed the subject to a more appropriate one.
On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 01:52:01PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
On 18/11/18 at 13:36, Rowland Penny wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 13:24:51 +0100
Alessandro Selli wrote:
On 18/11/18 at 10:46, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past
already and it does not determine the future.
Maybe not. If my English Grammar is still worth the schoolbook
paper it was printed on, "has been" is the Present Continuous
Tense, that is used "to express the idea that something is
happening now, at this very moment. It can also be used to show
that something is not happening now."
So, the main use is for "something is happening now",
sometimes for "something [that] is not happening now."
Nope, your schoolbook paper wasn't worth the paper it was written
on ;-)
All right, I checked it and indeed I remembered wrong. The
Present Continuous Tense if formed by the Present Tense of "be"
followed by a Present Participle. In this case we have the Present
Tense of "have" ("has") followed by the Present Participle of
"be" ("been"). Which means that KatolaZ used the Present Perfect
tense, which is used to express "an action happened at an
unspecified time before now."
What we have here is the passive perfect tense
This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence
in debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and
personal
The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past
already and it does not determine the
future.
'has been' is a perfect tense for 'to be'. Combined with the *past*
participle of "cheered", it makes a passive verb.
No it isn't, 'has been' means in the past 'to be' means in the the
future, as in 'has been seen' and 'to be seen'.
But what do I know, I have only been speaking English for the last 62
years, ever since I moved on from 'goo-goo-gaga' baby talk ;-)
Rowland
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Rowland Tell em, "Here's you sign > :D)
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] English grammar.
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:11:50 -0500
Hendrik Boom wrote:
> Changed the subject to a more appropriate one.
>
> On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 01:52:01PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> > On 18/11/18 at 13:36, Rowland Penny wrote:
> > > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 13:24:51 +0100
> > > Alessandro Selli wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 18/11/18 at 10:46, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past
> > >>> already and it does not determine the future.
> > >> Maybe not. If my English Grammar is still worth the schoolbook
> > >> paper it was printed on, "has been" is the Present Continuous
> > >> Tense, that is used "to express the idea that something is
> > >> happening now, at this very moment. It can also be used to show
> > >> that something is not happening now."
> > >>
> > >> So, the main use is for "something is happening now",
> > >> sometimes for "something [that] is not happening now."
> > >>
> > > Nope, your schoolbook paper wasn't worth the paper it was written
> > > on ;-)
> >
> >
> > All right, I checked it and indeed I remembered wrong. The
> > Present Continuous Tense if formed by the Present Tense of "be"
> > followed by a Present Participle. In this case we have the Present
> > Tense of "have" ("has") followed by the Present Participle of
> > "be" ("been"). Which means that KatolaZ used the Present Perfect
> > tense, which is used to express "an action happened at an
> > unspecified time before now."
>
> What we have here is the passive perfect tense
>
> >> This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence
> >> in debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and
> >> personal
> > The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past
> > already and it does not determine the
> > future.
>
> 'has been' is a perfect tense for 'to be'. Combined with the *past*
> participle of "cheered", it makes a passive verb.
>
No it isn't, 'has been' means in the past 'to be' means in the the
future, as in 'has been seen' and 'to be seen'.
But what do I know, I have only been speaking English for the last 62
years, ever since I moved on from 'goo-goo-gaga' baby talk ;-)
Rowland
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] English grammar.
Changed the subject to a more appropriate one.
On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 01:52:01PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> On 18/11/18 at 13:36, Rowland Penny wrote:
> > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 13:24:51 +0100
> > Alessandro Selli wrote:
> >
> >> On 18/11/18 at 10:46, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> >>
> >>> The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past
> >>> already and it does not determine the future.
> >> Maybe not. If my English Grammar is still worth the schoolbook
> >> paper it was printed on, "has been" is the Present Continuous Tense,
> >> that is used "to express the idea that something is happening now, at
> >> this very moment. It can also be used to show that something is not
> >> happening now."
> >>
> >> So, the main use is for "something is happening now", sometimes for
> >> "something [that] is not happening now."
> >>
> > Nope, your schoolbook paper wasn't worth the paper it was written on ;-)
>
>
> All right, I checked it and indeed I remembered wrong. The Present
> Continuous Tense if formed by the Present Tense of "be" followed by a
> Present Participle. In this case we have the Present Tense of "have"
> ("has") followed by the Present Participle of "be" ("been"). Which
> means that KatolaZ used the Present Perfect tense, which is used to
> express "an action happened at an unspecified time before now."
What we have here is the passive perfect tense
>> This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in
>> debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and personal
> The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past already
> and it does not determine the future.
'has been' is a perfect tense for 'to be'. Combined with the *past*
participle of "cheered", it makes a passive verb.
>
>
> So you and Rowland are right, and I hope the sneering against
> Devuaners really is something of the past.
>
> Tense.
>
>
> > 'has been' denotes something that has happened e.g 'That guy is an has
> > been' or 'the book has been found'.
> >
> > Your 'schoolbook' is probably where the misuse of 'since' comes from
> > as well.
>
>
> Oh well, it is indeed a very old one. But I'm reluctant to dump it
> into the waste paper bin. I too am a traditionalist, lazy grandpa who
> resists any change whatever, who just dreams to be a kid again.
>
>
>
> Greetings,
>
>
>
> --
> Alessandro Selli
> VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net
> Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key:
> BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE
>
>
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 18/11/18 at 13:36, Rowland Penny wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 13:24:51 +0100
> Alessandro Selli wrote:
>
>> On 18/11/18 at 10:46, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
>>
>>> The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past
>>> already and it does not determine the future.
>> Maybe not. If my English Grammar is still worth the schoolbook
>> paper it was printed on, "has been" is the Present Continuous Tense,
>> that is used "to express the idea that something is happening now, at
>> this very moment. It can also be used to show that something is not
>> happening now."
>>
>> So, the main use is for "something is happening now", sometimes for
>> "something [that] is not happening now."
>>
> Nope, your schoolbook paper wasn't worth the paper it was written on ;-)
All right, I checked it and indeed I remembered wrong. The Present
Continuous Tense if formed by the Present Tense of "be" followed by a
Present Participle. In this case we have the Present Tense of "have"
("has") followed by the Present Participle of "be" ("been"). Which
means that KatolaZ used the Present Perfect tense, which is used to
express "an action happened at an unspecified time before now."
So you and Rowland are right, and I hope the sneering against
Devuaners really is something of the past.
Tense.
> 'has been' denotes something that has happened e.g 'That guy is an has
> been' or 'the book has been found'.
>
> Your 'schoolbook' is probably where the misuse of 'since' comes from
> as well.
Oh well, it is indeed a very old one. But I'm reluctant to dump it
into the waste paper bin. I too am a traditionalist, lazy grandpa who
resists any change whatever, who just dreams to be a kid again.
Greetings,
--
Alessandro Selli
VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net
Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key:
BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE
signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 01:09:59PM +0100, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > On 18-11-18 09:36, KatolaZ wrote: > > This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in > > debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and personal > > insults). The truth is that too many people have a problem with other > > people not liking systemd and not wanting it around. So I am sorry but > > Devuan will stay around. > > > > HND > > > > KatolaZ > > That had been to be expected the origins of Devuan were not a polite > conversation and language used on this list against debian-devs still > contains harsh words. If only possible i would advise to stay present > on debian-devel so they never can have the say Devuan does not want > cooperation. (And to remind them daily what bad choice they made with > their systemd only. Which is the origin of their aggressive posts now.) > > Just my 2 cents. > Dear Nick, in the last month or so we have been doing much more than staying on a mailing list. sysvinit-2.91 is in debian/experimental and devuan/experimental, mostly unmodified, and it will soon get into debian/sid and devuan/ceres. This is mainly thanks to the work of Jesse Smith upstream and of several Debian developers, with some help from a few Devuan developers as well. Some work has been done on elogind by Mark and Andreas, and that's quite promising, even if the polkit knot is still there to be addressed. We are doing whatever is possible (and concretely achievable) to guarantee enough choice and alternatives, also in Debian. The fact that systemd is the default in Debian and that any attempt to discuss the possibility of supporting alternatives is mostly seen as "trolling" does not make life any easier though. That's why I am convinced that Devuan will need and will manage to stay around, and I am not at all scared of what it could entail. I am sure we will find a way to do it ;) HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 13:24:51 +0100 Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 18/11/18 at 10:46, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > > KatolaZ - 18.11.18, 09:36: > >> This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence > >> in debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and > >> personal > > The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past > > already and it does not determine the future. > > > Maybe not. If my English Grammar is still worth the schoolbook > paper it was printed on, "has been" is the Present Continuous Tense, > that is used "to express the idea that something is happening now, at > this very moment. It can also be used to show that something is not > happening now." > > So, the main use is for "something is happening now", sometimes for > "something [that] is not happening now." > Nope, your schoolbook paper wasn't worth the paper it was written on ;-) 'has been' denotes something that has happened e.g 'That guy is an has been' or 'the book has been found'. Your 'schoolbook' is probably where the misuse of 'since' comes from as well. Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 18/11/18 at 13:09, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > Just my 2 cents. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 18/11/18 at 10:46, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > KatolaZ - 18.11.18, 09:36: >> This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in >> debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and personal > The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past already > and it does not determine the future. Maybe not. If my English Grammar is still worth the schoolbook paper it was printed on, "has been" is the Present Continuous Tense, that is used "to express the idea that something is happening now, at this very moment. It can also be used to show that something is not happening now." So, the main use is for "something is happening now", sometimes for "something [that] is not happening now." Hopefully KatolaZ used it in the second sense, but I'm afraid he meant it in the first sense, which is statistically predominant. >> insults). The truth is that too many people have a problem with other >> people not liking systemd and not wanting it around. So I am sorry >> but Devuan will stay around. > Maybe… not just yet. > > But there certainly is a potential. I am glad about the wonderful > cooperation between some Devuan and some Debian developers. While I do not doubt this is *sometimes* indeed happening, I think Debian developers and sysadmins for the most part are, like the majority of people in any context, lazy(*), resistant to change and proud with developing what is considered the (second) oldest GNU/Linux distribution. A long term tradition, pride and the wish to get the job done with the minimum effort and time spent are not the best ingredients for changing one's ways. Adopting systemd and proposing the / -> /usr merge do are changes, I know, but they are motivated by the promise (or hope) they are going to diminish the work needed to take a different approach. In other words, they are an investment in a future of more abundant laziness. And we are part of the people who are disrupting their quest for pride in laziness, we are the youngsters who are bothering Grandpa, it's all too natural that most of Debianers feel Devuaners like smoke in their eyes. It's going to take time and a careful, diplomatic way of interacting with the traditionalist, lazy Granpas to be listened to and eventually be accepted as part of the family instead of a bunch of bothersome kids. I strongly hope Grandpa will eventually not just accept the kids, but be happy to have them around. I have no idea however what the chances are that this is going to happen. Of course, getting Devuan into prominence among the Debian spinoffs (and some corporate/VC support and a few relevant, high profile use cases) would help a lot. Grandpa is not stupid, he does notice these things. And of course the kids will eventually leave home to have a life of their own, if they are to grow up into adults. But this is longer term. *) Laziness in a broad sense, meaning the natural predisposition to choose the easiest and shortest path to get the job done. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 18-11-18 09:36, KatolaZ wrote: > This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in > debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and personal > insults). The truth is that too many people have a problem with other > people not liking systemd and not wanting it around. So I am sorry but > Devuan will stay around. > > HND > > KatolaZ That had been to be expected the origins of Devuan were not a polite conversation and language used on this list against debian-devs still contains harsh words. If only possible i would advise to stay present on debian-devel so they never can have the say Devuan does not want cooperation. (And to remind them daily what bad choice they made with their systemd only. Which is the origin of their aggressive posts now.) Just my 2 cents. Grtz. Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 18/11/18 at 09:32, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:22:18AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > [cut] > >> Devuan was born to remedy a wrong turn taken by Debian's Technical >> Committee, the VUAs who launched the project decided to take into their >> hands the burden of reinstating to the fullest user's freedom of >> choice. Now there's another pending decision that might erode again >> this freedom. It could well be that Devuan will have to give in given >> it's manpower and budget constrains. Shall this happen it will mean >> Devuan failed to show the world it's principles and directions were >> sounder than Debian's, but I think that trying to achieve the success I >> deem it deserves implies sticking with taking the brave decision to keep >> undoing the wrong turns Debian's TC takes. >> > Besides the drama: we built yesterday a preliminary version of the > debian-installer for beowulf which has an explicit opt-in question for > usrmerge: > > > https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/ > > and defaults to the classical behaviour (/bin and /sbin proper folders > under /). Please use the mini.iso, and do not report any bug related > to desktop thingies not working, since elogind and polkit-stuff are > not there yet. Great! As I already wrote: I think this is the best solution for this issue, letting users choose defaulting to a sane, time-proven default. Thank you! -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 10:40:47AM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > KatolaZ - 18.11.18, 09:40: > > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 04:51:43PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > […] > > > ACK. Just like to point out that Devuan might run into packages > > > that > > > have already moved programs that really ought to be in /bin or /sbin > > > over to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin. > > > > > > Image bash getting installed in /usr/bin/bash. With the merged /usr > > > scenario that's not a problem because /bin is a symlink to /usr/bin > > > and all you #!/bin/bash scripts will continue to work just fine. > > > In the non-merged scenario /bin/bash will not exist and all hell > > > breaks loose. > > Let's solve first the problems that we have now, instead of trying to > > solve the problems that we do not have as yet (and might not ever have > > at all), OK? :) > > > > There is no reason so far for the packagers of basic utilities to > > massively move their stuff under /usr/bin and/or /usr/sbin. So let's > > keep calm and carry on ;) > > As pointed out already… kmod in Debian is already changed to having > libkmod in /usr instead of /lib¹. kmod is being maintained by Debian > developers who are also involved with Systemd. > > Thus… /usr mounted later… all drivers in order to actually mount /usr > would have to be compiled into the kernel with that updated kmod package > already. And they just moved the library, not the binary for now. > Worrying themselves they may break to much by moving the binaries. This is actually from yesterday night :D We'll have a look and decide how to proceed. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
KatolaZ - 18.11.18, 09:36: > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 01:08:41AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:22:18AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > > I'm well aware of the present limitations that make it > > > impossible to let Devuan be an indipendent distribution: too > > > little manpower behind it and too llittle corporate/VC support > > > for it. It could well be that Devuan will never be anything more > > > than a systemd-less-Debian, always behind it's parent > > > distribution and always trying to catch up to their design > > > implementations. Of course I wouldn't call this success.> > > I think that instead of making Devuan independent, we should strive > > to kill it. Just not in the way Lennart wants. > > > > By keeping all unbelievers to a ghetto, systemd proponents make way > > for an excuse for putting Debian even deeper into the systemd land. > > Thus, widening the gap is IMHO the worst thing you can do. > > > > Instead, any package diff from Debian should be considered a problem > > to be fixed. Any patches, instead of removing systemd support, > > should make things work both with systemd and modular init/rc > > systems. And be upstreamed as soon as possible. > > This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in > debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and personal The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past already and it does not determine the future. > insults). The truth is that too many people have a problem with other > people not liking systemd and not wanting it around. So I am sorry > but Devuan will stay around. Maybe… not just yet. But there certainly is a potential. I am glad about the wonderful cooperation between some Devuan and some Debian developers. Of course, re-uniting and still providing the choice between any other init system and systemd or usr-split and usr-merge would require to solve quite some technical challenges as well. I'd say it is not impossible, but it could be challenging. However… I certainly agree with you on working with what is important now and focus with the wonderful collaboration that some may have thought would be totally impossible. Move on from what we have… instead of focusing of what we do not appear to have yet. Focus on the abundance, instead of on the lack. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
KatolaZ - 18.11.18, 09:40: > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 04:51:43PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: […] > > ACK. Just like to point out that Devuan might run into packages > > that > > have already moved programs that really ought to be in /bin or /sbin > > over to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin. > > > > Image bash getting installed in /usr/bin/bash. With the merged /usr > > scenario that's not a problem because /bin is a symlink to /usr/bin > > and all you #!/bin/bash scripts will continue to work just fine. > > In the non-merged scenario /bin/bash will not exist and all hell > > breaks loose. > Let's solve first the problems that we have now, instead of trying to > solve the problems that we do not have as yet (and might not ever have > at all), OK? :) > > There is no reason so far for the packagers of basic utilities to > massively move their stuff under /usr/bin and/or /usr/sbin. So let's > keep calm and carry on ;) As pointed out already… kmod in Debian is already changed to having libkmod in /usr instead of /lib¹. kmod is being maintained by Debian developers who are also involved with Systemd. Thus… /usr mounted later… all drivers in order to actually mount /usr would have to be compiled into the kernel with that updated kmod package already. And they just moved the library, not the binary for now. Worrying themselves they may break to much by moving the binaries. However so far, that is just one package I am aware of. Devuan could have its own version of it. Likely not all Debian developers propagate the usrmerge. [1] Please move libkmod to /usr/lib https://bugs.debian.org/894566 -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
hi Olaf! Am Sonntag, 18. November 2018 schrieb Olaf Meeuwissen: > > Just for the fun of applied paranoia: How do you ensure that nobody > > tempered with your eeprom? Did you seal it propperly after you made > > the chip readonly? If not, then you still have the same problem, just > > a level higher. > > If someone tampered with the eeprom I guess I'd have a problem and > someone might be eavesdropping on my disk I/O but my disks would still > be fully encrypted as in I could give you one of the disks from my RAID1 > setup and you wouldn't be able to find out what's on it. Or inject a keylogger into your grub payload - which is quite easy. Sniffed keystrokes could be stored in the very same eeprom (or cmos ram or ...). Or intercept the grub boot command, as at that point the kernel + initrd are already loaded from the decrypted boot partition, but kernel has not taken over control now. Modifying initrd on the fly would be quite nice ... > Hope this helps, > -- > Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 > GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 > Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate > Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] initramfs?
Hi, On 11/17/2018 02:45 PM, Alessandro Selli wrote: On 16/11/18 at 21:01, Simon Hobson wrote: Hendrik Boom wrote: (1) Is initramfs so weird that only one or two people in the world can make one? **AT THE MOMENT** no it isn't. AIUI (and I stand to be corrected) it's simply a CPIO archive that's been (optionally) compressed. So it can be uncompressed, extracted, modified, and rebuilt using standard tools. Also ** at the moment** I can't see that changing since the process that needs to extract that archive at boot time isn't under Poettering's control. As for the future - who knows. Also, echoing another comment, I can't remember ever having to fiddle with the contents of one as a means of fixing a problem. In theory anybody could make their own custom initramfs. And in theory you never have to do it. In practice i needed to do it several times when encrypting the / filesystem became possible, but manually hacking the initramfs proves it to be a far different beast than just a cpio archive. Hendrik, you can uncompress the content of the initrd.img by the following way: 1) Rename it to initrd.gz and use gunzip: # mv initrd.img initrd.gz # gunzip initrd.gz 2) After that, you can extract the files using cpio: # mkdir tmp # cd tmp # cpio -id < ../initrd 3) Look at the content (in this case is the initrd.img of debian-installer): # ls bin conf etc init lib sbin scripts usr 4) Now you can modify the content of the initrd, and generate the new initrd in the parent directory: # find . | cpio --create --format='newc' > ../newinitrd Compress it with gzip and rename it to initrd.img And ready :) Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 04:51:43PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: [cut] > > ACK. Just like to point out that Devuan might run into packages that > have already moved programs that really ought to be in /bin or /sbin > over to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin. > > Image bash getting installed in /usr/bin/bash. With the merged /usr > scenario that's not a problem because /bin is a symlink to /usr/bin and > all you #!/bin/bash scripts will continue to work just fine. In the > non-merged scenario /bin/bash will not exist and all hell breaks loose. > Let's solve first the problems that we have now, instead of trying to solve the problems that we do not have as yet (and might not ever have at all), OK? :) There is no reason so far for the packagers of basic utilities to massively move their stuff under /usr/bin and/or /usr/sbin. So let's keep calm and carry on ;) HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 01:08:41AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:22:18AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > I'm well aware of the present limitations that make it impossible to > > let Devuan be an indipendent distribution: too little manpower behind it > > and too llittle corporate/VC support for it. It could well be that > > Devuan will never be anything more than a systemd-less-Debian, always > > behind it's parent distribution and always trying to catch up to their > > design implementations. Of course I wouldn't call this success. > > I think that instead of making Devuan independent, we should strive to kill > it. Just not in the way Lennart wants. > > By keeping all unbelievers to a ghetto, systemd proponents make way for an > excuse for putting Debian even deeper into the systemd land. Thus, widening > the gap is IMHO the worst thing you can do. > > Instead, any package diff from Debian should be considered a problem to be > fixed. Any patches, instead of removing systemd support, should make things > work both with systemd and modular init/rc systems. And be upstreamed as > soon as possible. This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and personal insults). The truth is that too many people have a problem with other people not liking systemd and not wanting it around. So I am sorry but Devuan will stay around. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:22:18AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: [cut] > > Devuan was born to remedy a wrong turn taken by Debian's Technical > Committee, the VUAs who launched the project decided to take into their > hands the burden of reinstating to the fullest user's freedom of > choice. Now there's another pending decision that might erode again > this freedom. It could well be that Devuan will have to give in given > it's manpower and budget constrains. Shall this happen it will mean > Devuan failed to show the world it's principles and directions were > sounder than Debian's, but I think that trying to achieve the success I > deem it deserves implies sticking with taking the brave decision to keep > undoing the wrong turns Debian's TC takes. > Besides the drama: we built yesterday a preliminary version of the debian-installer for beowulf which has an explicit opt-in question for usrmerge: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/ and defaults to the classical behaviour (/bin and /sbin proper folders under /). Please use the mini.iso, and do not report any bug related to desktop thingies not working, since elogind and polkit-stuff are not there yet. Regards KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
So, respondents essentially are writing what I wrote, but in more grandiose writing styles. Instead of appealing to the general and writing in abstruct ways, they choose to write giving endless concrete describtions. Well, Pedagogy, the science of teaching methods, strongly insists on using concrete examples with children. Someone even proudly suggested they are going to do research reading like a diligent student doing an assignment! What is being discussed here is the merge of a set of system directories, not some concept requiring a PhD from Harvard or MIT. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
