Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Y Plentyn]

Hi.

(Hope the hacked threading works - please keep the address in Cc: there or
in To)

On 2017-08-12 16:52, Michael Siegel wrote:
> There is a pretty big (2500-3000 visitors) Linux/FOSS event taking place
> in Chemnitz (Germany) in March. It's called Chemnitzer Linux Tage
> (Chemnitz Linux Days) and has been held annually since 1999. The
> project's website can be found at
[...]

> I think it would be great if Devuan presented itself there.
[...]

> * Having a booth in the exhibition area of the building where people can
> come by, inform themselves, ask questions, obtain installation media and
> such
[...]

I might be interested in co-organizing a booth there if at least 2 more
people are willing to help.

I also set up a post in the forum
(https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1542)

I am not subscribed to the List at the Moment. It would be nice if you kept
me in the loop for a while.

cu

AW
-- 
[...] If you don't want to be restricted, don't agree to it. If you are
coerced, comply as much as you must to protect yourself, just don't support
it. Noone can free you but yourself. (crag, on Debian Planet)
Y Plentyn (aw-dev...@old-forest.org)


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[DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Edward Bartolo]

Another advice is to avoid making analogies. Instead stick to plain
facts. An analogy may help but given the audience is receptive.
Remember, you will have a mixture of people with many of them
convinced users of systemd.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Narcis Garcia]

It's better to defend Init systems than focusing on the Systemd
software. Dedicated hours against Systemd are lost hours for Init systems.
How to defend init systems (ans supervisors)? Analyzing, documenting,
comparing and explaining them to the detail.


El 16/08/17 a les 14:39, Simon Hobson ha escrit:
> Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> 
>> Keep in mind that someone from the audience may tell you that
>> fine control requires the knowledge of complicated shell scripting and
>> the knowledge of how diverse programs are configured in their
>> configuration files.
> 
> Just like Windows, with PowerShell - and a confusingly similar but different 
> PowerShell for Exchange - and all those ".ini' files. I try and stay out of 
> "doing Windows" while working in a mostly Windows-centric outfit, but one 
> thing I have learned is that even some fairly basic tasks need "complicated 
> shell scripting" (aka, magic PowerShell incantations) to do - this is, of 
> course, invisible to those who's skill level has never exceeded the basics 
> that can be done with the "click things randomly till it seems to work" GUI. 
> I've also observed that it's quite easy to screw things up (a little 
> knowledge ...) but impossible to track down later as these incantations make 
> invisible changes - very unlike making changes that are easy to see in a 
> script/config file.
> 
> And the ultimate config file in the Windows world is of course ... the 
> Registry. That small, easy to navigate, and not at all easy to damage, config 
> database :D
> 
> 
> Lars Noodén  wrote:
> 
>> Even within Debian, it ended on being one single person who made the
>> call to deploy systemd.  Look at the ranking for the official tallies:
>>
>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00402.html
>>
>> He made the decision and it cascaded down to well over 300 derivatives:
> 
> 
> Also, have a link ready to the analysis someone did showing that in fact 
> "going SystemD" was a minority vote once you look at the options carefully 
> and exclude the ones that didn't really vote for SystemD but were counted as 
> such. Sorry, don't have the link, but I know someone posted it here not all 
> that long ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Another "weapon" to have in reserve would be a list of serious bugs in stuff 
> LP decided "had to be remade, well because". It's a tricky one to do, because 
> you need to show that those running the project have a track record for 
> really bad code - but without it being possible for someone to turn it around 
> and label it as an attack on those people themselves. Eg, "you have to be 
> careful with SystemD because LP has a history of writing crap code" can 
> easily (but falsely) be rebutted as "so you are lowering your argument to 
> personal attacks then ?".
> 
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[golinux]

On 2017-08-16 07:39, Simon Hobson wrote:


Also, have a link ready to the analysis someone did showing that in
fact "going SystemD" was a minority vote once you look at the options
carefully and exclude the ones that didn't really vote for SystemD but
were counted as such. Sorry, don't have the link, but I know someone
posted it here not all that long ago.



http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20=120652




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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Simon Hobson]

Edward Bartolo  wrote:

> Keep in mind that someone from the audience may tell you that
> fine control requires the knowledge of complicated shell scripting and
> the knowledge of how diverse programs are configured in their
> configuration files.

Just like Windows, with PowerShell - and a confusingly similar but different 
PowerShell for Exchange - and all those ".ini' files. I try and stay out of 
"doing Windows" while working in a mostly Windows-centric outfit, but one thing 
I have learned is that even some fairly basic tasks need "complicated shell 
scripting" (aka, magic PowerShell incantations) to do - this is, of course, 
invisible to those who's skill level has never exceeded the basics that can be 
done with the "click things randomly till it seems to work" GUI. I've also 
observed that it's quite easy to screw things up (a little knowledge ...) but 
impossible to track down later as these incantations make invisible changes - 
very unlike making changes that are easy to see in a script/config file.

And the ultimate config file in the Windows world is of course ... the 
Registry. That small, easy to navigate, and not at all easy to damage, config 
database :D


Lars Noodén  wrote:

> Even within Debian, it ended on being one single person who made the
> call to deploy systemd.  Look at the ranking for the official tallies:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00402.html
> 
> He made the decision and it cascaded down to well over 300 derivatives:


Also, have a link ready to the analysis someone did showing that in fact "going 
SystemD" was a minority vote once you look at the options carefully and exclude 
the ones that didn't really vote for SystemD but were counted as such. Sorry, 
don't have the link, but I know someone posted it here not all that long ago.



Another "weapon" to have in reserve would be a list of serious bugs in stuff LP 
decided "had to be remade, well because". It's a tricky one to do, because you 
need to show that those running the project have a track record for really bad 
code - but without it being possible for someone to turn it around and label it 
as an attack on those people themselves. Eg, "you have to be careful with 
SystemD because LP has a history of writing crap code" can easily (but falsely) 
be rebutted as "so you are lowering your argument to personal attacks then ?".

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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Lars Noodén]

On 08/16/2017 02:34 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
[snip]
> I would prepare such a lecture by making a great effort to be as
> objective as possible. Therefore, my advice is to stick to facts.
[snip]

Definitely stay focused exclusively on documented facts.  The
presentation will be to easy to derail otherwise.

One point that will come up will be the sad situation where many distros
now have systemd.  Often this is used in the form of a logical fallacy
[1] claiming ubiquity is somehow the result of popularity.

What really happened was quite different because of the hierarchy of
dependencies stemming from core distros like Debian.   These two charts
makes it really clear how the decisions from Debian and Fedora cascaded
outward:

 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Linux_Distribution_Timeline.svg

 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/DebianFamilyTree1210.svg

For example, because Debian switched Ubuntu had to also because it had
no choice.  And then Linux Mint went along because Ubuntu did so and
they depend on it for their upstream.

Even within Debian, it ended on being one single person who made the
call to deploy systemd.  Look at the ranking for the official tallies:

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00402.html

He made the decision and it cascaded down to well over 300 derivatives:

https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=Linux=All=All=Debian=None=All=All=All=All=All=All=All=All=All#simple

tldr; have extra slides ready to debunk some of the common system
talking points that will come up in the questions at the end, but don't
use the slides in the actual presentation

Regards,
Lars


[1] https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
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[DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Edward Bartolo]

Quote: << "Why I Hate systemd" >>
Since systemd has been adopted by most distributions, "Hate" is
probably going to derail any objective discussion. A better title
would be, "Why init freedom offers more flexibility" or something
similar. As others said, it is absolutely not wise to use any emotion
loaded words.

I would prepare such a lecture by making a great effort to be as
objective as possible. Therefore, my advice is to stick to facts.
Avoid unproven claims and if possible support your arguments visually
with statistics stating what statistic was used together with the
corrisponding confidence level.

Besides the above, when it comes to give the philosophical reasons as
to why Devuan was established, again, try to support your arguments
with facts, especially that there are situations where conventional
GNU/Linux offers more control over a machine and why such control is a
benefit. Keep in mind that someone from the audience may tell you that
fine control requires the knowledge of complicated shell scripting and
the knowledge of how diverse programs are configured in their
configuration files. In this case be sincere: being more knowledgeable
is the small price to pay.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 16/08/17 a les 09:17, Erik Christiansen ha escrit:
> On 15.08.17 21:49, Hendrik Boom wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 12:42:50AM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
>>>
>>> ..I agree "hate" is a little too loaded and a little too warranted. ;o)
>>
>> Exactly my point.  But it's better to present the emotionally unloaded 
>> facts and let the listeners of readers come up with their own feelings 
>> about the matter.  People resent being force-fed emotions.
> 
> Even "loathe" is too strong to be attractive to an audience which is not
> already converted. Understanding that hatred arises out of fear (nothing
> less can evoke such a strong response, in reality), leads to a less
> emotive presentation. Better to tickle the audience's curiosity, than to
> bludgeon their intelligence with heavy propaganda.
> 
> They will be more attracted by outgoing engagement with their nascent
> curiosity, than by a presenter egocentrically obsessing about his own
> dark emotions.
> 
> Creeping dictatorial constraint vs freedom of choice ; Sterile monoculture
> vs vital diversity, agile Linux vs monolithic M$-style Systemdix, ... let the
> ego go off on a coffee break, and engage with the facts, as Hendrik so
> wisely advises, but gently emphasise the dichotomy with evocative
> adjectives, perhaps?
> 
> Erik

The best strategy is to go as a contributor for Chemnitzer Linux-Tage.
The best propaganda is that exposed contents contribute people to make
their own decisions and to more people works on (p.e.) init softwares.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 16/08/17 a les 03:49, Hendrik Boom ha escrit:
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 12:42:50AM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 21:27:13 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message 
>> <20170815012713.ga7...@topoi.pooq.com>:
>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 03:45:08PM +0200, Evilham wrote:
>>>

 I'd recommend taking a look at this:
 https://www.slideshare.net/opennebula/opennebulaconf2015-112-the-status-of-devuan-project-alberto-zuin
>>>
>>> The slide "Why I Hate systemd" is likely to derail discussion because
>>> of the loaded word "hate".  Better to discuss technical merits and
>>> demerits without raising emotions.
>>
>> ..I lean towards disagreeing, I rejected systemd on its creepy banana
>> republic politics and its usage to defend the mission creep.
>>
>> ..I agree "hate" is a little too loaded and a little too warranted. ;o)
> 
> Exactly my point.  But it's better to present the emotionally unloaded 
> facts and let the listeners of readers come up with their own feelings 
> about the matter.  People resent being force-fed emotions.
> 

+1
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 12:42:50AM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 21:27:13 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message 
> <20170815012713.ga7...@topoi.pooq.com>:
> 
> > On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 03:45:08PM +0200, Evilham wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > I'd recommend taking a look at this:
> > > https://www.slideshare.net/opennebula/opennebulaconf2015-112-the-status-of-devuan-project-alberto-zuin
> > 
> > The slide "Why I Hate systemd" is likely to derail discussion because
> > of the loaded word "hate".  Better to discuss technical merits and
> > demerits without raising emotions.
> 
> ..I lean towards disagreeing, I rejected systemd on its creepy banana
> republic politics and its usage to defend the mission creep.
> 
> ..I agree "hate" is a little too loaded and a little too warranted. ;o)

Exactly my point.  But it's better to present the emotionally unloaded 
facts and let the listeners of readers come up with their own feelings 
about the matter.  People resent being force-fed emotions.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 21:27:13 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message 
<20170815012713.ga7...@topoi.pooq.com>:

> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 03:45:08PM +0200, Evilham wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I'd recommend taking a look at this:
> > https://www.slideshare.net/opennebula/opennebulaconf2015-112-the-status-of-devuan-project-alberto-zuin
> 
> The slide "Why I Hate systemd" is likely to derail discussion because
> of the loaded word "hate".  Better to discuss technical merits and
> demerits without raising emotions.

..I lean towards disagreeing, I rejected systemd on its creepy banana
republic politics and its usage to defend the mission creep.

..I agree "hate" is a little too loaded and a little too warranted. ;o)

..systemd is quite clearly AFAICT, capable of both subverting and
defending e.g. Tor tunneling, since it creeps in between kernelspace
and userspace, running its own timeservices, dns etc.

..you can either trust the systemd as your friend, like Red Hat, Debian
et al "mainstream Linux" does, or trust them as our enemy like we do.

..clearly, either we are wrong, in that case we have backups in the
systemd distros, or, the systemd users are wrong in trusting the
systemd developers, and will need a systemd-free backup.

..time will show.  Meanwhile, we do not know which side is right and
which side is wrong on systemd.

..has Ed Snowden and Joanna Rutkowska changed their mind on systemd, or
do they still trust it?

..then we can learn from people like Linus and Theodore T'so.

..the "OT: most processors are insecure" is clearly worth a mention.
And somebody at the Chemnitzer Linux-Tage might know when and how etc
the systemd deveopers learned what we learned in that thread here.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 03:45:08PM +0200, Evilham wrote:

> 
> I'd recommend taking a look at this:
> https://www.slideshare.net/opennebula/opennebulaconf2015-112-the-status-of-devuan-project-alberto-zuin

The slide "Why I Hate systemd" is likely to derail discussion because of 
the loaded word "hate".  Better to discuss technical merits and demerits 
without raising emotions.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Jaromil]

I also hope you find inspiration from this talk I've given at FSCONS
in occasion of our two years anniversary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMvyOGawNwo

I've uploaded here the slides' I've made for the occasion

https://transfer.sh/TqJGe/devuan_fscons.odp

stats may need some updating. I recommend to train well, be receptive
and accept criticism. do remember we aim for excellence!!


ciao :^)

p.s. I wish I'd make it also to the event, it is very interesting
 indeed, tried to squeeze it in my calendar, but no luck.





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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Evilham]

Salut Narcís!
Good to see you here (we've crossed emails on debian's CA user list).

Am 14/08/2017 um 12:59 schrieb Narcis Garcia:
> I suggest to put effort on explaining what are and how are init systems
> with stages, supervision, freedom, etc.
> 

Sounds like a good idea.

> El 14/08/17 a les 11:49, Michael Siegel ha escrit:
>> As for the topic of the talk, I was thinking of a general introduction
>> to Devuan, i.e. something like:

* What is Devuan?

Since the answer to this right now is basically "Debian without
systemd", it totally begs next point.

* What is an init system? Supervision? Why is that freedom important?

* Why and how did it come about?

"Why" should be mostly addressed by previous point, worth making it
clear again here though.

* How does the process of creating releases for this distribution work?

* Why should users / debian ecosystem care?

This would include the previous "what does Devuan have to offer" while
leaving romom for more.

* Is it usable? Where can you get it?

Important to remark that Devuan is usable, stable and under active
development.

* Future plans

* Where does the project need help?/How to contribute?


I'd recommend taking a look at this:
https://www.slideshare.net/opennebula/opennebulaconf2015-112-the-status-of-devuan-project-alberto-zuin

It's a bit outdated and had a different purpose, but it's interesting :)


Am 13/08/2017 um 8:29 schrieb Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult:
> where exactly are you located ?

lat: 50.8333 long: 12.9167

Just kidding, that's Chemnitz.
I'm here and there, quite often in Saxony ;).
-- 
Evilham
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Narcis Garcia]

I suggest to put effort on explaining what are and how are init systems
with stages, supervision, freedom, etc.


El 14/08/17 a les 11:49, Michael Siegel ha escrit:
> Am 12.08.2017 um 22:16 schrieb Evilham:
> 
>>> * Giving a talk of about 30 to 45 minutes and answering questions
>>> from the audience for another 30 or 15 minutes respectively
>>>
>>> * Having a booth in the exhibition area of the building where
>>> people can come by, inform themselves, ask questions, obtain
>>> installation media and such
>>>
>>> I think it should be possible to have both if available manpower
>>> allows for that.
>>
>> Maybe both is not quite necessary, you know how that goes, people
>> come to you afterwards if they are interested. OTOH: if enough people
>> end up volunteering, sure why not.
> 
> I think a talk should be enough for now.
> 
>> Let's see how much interest this gathers and what can be done from
>> that, did you have any particular topic in mind?
> 
> As for the topic of the talk, I was thinking of a general introduction
> to Devuan, i.e. something like:
> 
> * What is Devuan?
> * Why and how did it come about?
> * How does the process of creating releases for this distribution work?
> * What does the system have to offer?
> * Where can you get Devuan to try it out/install it?
> * Future plans
> * Where does the project need help?/How to contribute?
> 
> 
> --
> msi
> 
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Michael Siegel]

Am 12.08.2017 um 22:16 schrieb Evilham:

>> * Giving a talk of about 30 to 45 minutes and answering questions
>> from the audience for another 30 or 15 minutes respectively
>> 
>> * Having a booth in the exhibition area of the building where
>> people can come by, inform themselves, ask questions, obtain
>> installation media and such
>> 
>> I think it should be possible to have both if available manpower
>> allows for that.
> 
> Maybe both is not quite necessary, you know how that goes, people
> come to you afterwards if they are interested. OTOH: if enough people
> end up volunteering, sure why not.

I think a talk should be enough for now.

> Let's see how much interest this gathers and what can be done from
> that, did you have any particular topic in mind?

As for the topic of the talk, I was thinking of a general introduction
to Devuan, i.e. something like:

* What is Devuan?
* Why and how did it come about?
* How does the process of creating releases for this distribution work?
* What does the system have to offer?
* Where can you get Devuan to try it out/install it?
* Future plans
* Where does the project need help?/How to contribute?


--
msi

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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 12.08.2017 22:16, Evilham wrote:

As mentioned on IRC, I'm quite near and could lend a hand; 


where exactly are you located ?


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Evilham]

Thank you for posting it here Michael :).

Am 12/08/2017 um 18:52 schrieb Michael Siegel:
> There is a pretty big (2500-3000 visitors) Linux/FOSS event taking place
> in Chemnitz (Germany) in March. It's called Chemnitzer Linux Tage
> (Chemnitz Linux Days) and has been held annually since 1999. The
> project's website can be found at
> 
>   https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de.

Also, this has a bit of a reputation in the "geek circles" in Germany.

> I think it would be great if Devuan presented itself there.
> 
> There are two possible ways of doing that:
> 
> * Giving a talk of about 30 to 45 minutes and answering questions from
> the audience for another 30 or 15 minutes respectively
> 
> * Having a booth in the exhibition area of the building where people can
> come by, inform themselves, ask questions, obtain installation media and
> such
> 
> I think it should be possible to have both if available manpower allows
> for that.

Maybe both is not quite necessary, you know how that goes, people come
to you afterwards if they are interested. OTOH: if enough people end up
volunteering, sure why not.

> It would be best if a possible talk could be given in German language,
> though that's not mandatory. The call for lectures will presumably be
> out in mid-October. The website also has some notes for speakers
> (https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2017/en/programm/hinweise) as well as
> for exhibitors
> (https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2017/en/programm/hinweise) that should
> be considered.
> 
> So, if anyone's interested, I'd be quite happy. I could help organizing
> things.

I'm actually interested here to see what our Elder Developers have to
say. Maybe one of them can make it, that'd be a hit.

As mentioned on IRC, I'm quite near and could lend a hand; my German is
not perfect, but it's alright (as long as I don't have to understand
extremely thick Chemnitzer accents :)).

Let's see how much interest this gathers and what can be done from that,
did you have any particular topic in mind?
-- 
Evilham
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Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 12.08.2017 18:52, Michael Siegel wrote:

There is a pretty big (2500-3000 visitors) Linux/FOSS event taking place
in Chemnitz (Germany) in March. It's called Chemnitzer Linux Tage
(Chemnitz Linux Days) and has been held annually since 1999. The
project's website can be found at

https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de.

The "About Us" page is at

https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2017/en/info/about

I think it would be great if Devuan presented itself there.


Good idea.

I've planned to go there for many years, but always missed it :(

By the way: some more people from central germany here ?


--mtx
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[DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Michael Siegel]

There is a pretty big (2500-3000 visitors) Linux/FOSS event taking place
in Chemnitz (Germany) in March. It's called Chemnitzer Linux Tage
(Chemnitz Linux Days) and has been held annually since 1999. The
project's website can be found at

https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de.

The "About Us" page is at

https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2017/en/info/about

I think it would be great if Devuan presented itself there.

There are two possible ways of doing that:

* Giving a talk of about 30 to 45 minutes and answering questions from
the audience for another 30 or 15 minutes respectively

* Having a booth in the exhibition area of the building where people can
come by, inform themselves, ask questions, obtain installation media and
such

I think it should be possible to have both if available manpower allows
for that.

It would be best if a possible talk could be given in German language,
though that's not mandatory. The call for lectures will presumably be
out in mid-October. The website also has some notes for speakers
(https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2017/en/programm/hinweise) as well as
for exhibitors
(https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2017/en/programm/hinweise) that should
be considered.

So, if anyone's interested, I'd be quite happy. I could help organizing
things.


msi
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