Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Can I help?

[Lera]

Hi Peter,

В письме от 24 ноября 2015 07:47:51 пользователь ptoye написал:
> "User". We need some way to distinguish the person who is using the database
> from the person developing it. After all, the concept of the parameter
> query was designed to allow the person using the database to input
> parameter values. Do you have a better word? Maybe recast the sentences
> using it to say something like "at run-time" (which is in the first
> sentence. If you prefer that I'll send a revised version in, but I think it
> will be difficult not to mention the fact that it's a human being that
> inputs the parameter value. I notice that the original version had "you" -
> whoever that might be - which strikes me as even less professional.
I agree with you. Combination of words such as "you must" and "you can" must 
not be used in the Help.
I have read again, and I think that I interpreted a paragraph "The user can 
use the SQL wild-card characters..." wrong. You are right. This paragraph 
needs it.

> There's also the problem of the paragraph which I didn't understand. I think
> that what the original author was trying to say was that parameter queries
> are commonly used in subforms to restrict the records to be displayed. Is
> that your impression? If so, I can rewrite it. It also should be moved to
> the section on Parameter queries - it's nothing to do with input.
Do you say about this "Parameter queries are also used for subforms, since 
they work exclusively with queries for which the values to be invoked are read 
internally from a variable."?
I think that it needs to be moved in the Parametr query section.

Best regards,
Lera




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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Sveinn,

I am not sure we are talking about the same thing or that I understand
this correctly.

They change the names of the help files (i.e. calc/01.po is now
calcsfirsthelpfilewithhelpaboutfunctions.po). For the migration
process they become new po files.

The pomigrate2 script takes the translation memory, but it was
generated from the old files (like the old calc/01.po file) with
different msgctx and comment fields etc. So even if all strings in the
renamed file are actually the same as in 01.po , they will become
fuzzy strings, right?

So for calc/01.po that is like 8000 strings, fuzzy strings. And since
we translators will not know if there is at least one changed or
updated string in there, we will have to go manually through all those
8000 strings, reading and checking and ultimately 8000 times clicking
it is not a fuzzy but an ok translation.

Well, if that is done in all help files, it means 26000 reviewed
strings with 26000 clicks that these strings are just fine.

Am I wrong?

100 localization teams doing those 26000 clicks would mean like
2.600.000 reviewed strings ...

I hope I am wrong.

Lp, m.

2015-11-24 19:31 GMT+01:00 Sveinn í Felli :
> Þann þri 24.nóv 2015 15:35, skrifaði Martin Srebotnjak:
>>
>> 2015-11-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 Jan Holesovsky :
>>>
>>> actually makes me think that only a small fraction of translators would
>>> be actually disrupted, because for those using Pootle, it would be
>>> transparent.  So did I misunderstand?
>>>
>>
>> Probably Slovenian would be actually disrupted, and other "offline"
>> localization teams, I do not have a list.
>>
>> Lp, m.
>>
>
> Martin, I prefer translating offline, and honestly I fail to see too much of
> a problem if the helpfiles were renamed from 01.po, 02.po to something more
> meaningful. And if comments and msgctx fields are to be changed - why not...
>
>
> (I do regenerate my translation memories regularly)
>
> Sveinn í Felli

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Possible help files rename?

[Regina Henschel]

Hi Jan,

Jan Holesovsky schrieb:

Hi Regina, all,

Regina Henschel píše v St 18. 11. 2015 v 21:32 +0100:


most of the file names are build of numbers and it
is hard to identify the relevant file.


That's indeed true :-)

I wonder - would a large scale rename to something more readable (like
eg. filename constructed from the  tag) be more appreciated by
people editing help?


If you need the file name of the help page you are currently viewing, 
then a little change in the main_transform.xsl is needed to show the 
actually path.


If you need the help page but only know UI strings or the uno command, 
then a search is needed anyway, because of embedding.


You need no "grep", if you work on Windows, but OpenGrok will be 
sufficient for searching now and then. And for a local copy of the help 
files, modern editors have a tool for searching in files.


I think, renaming is not needed and the effort is far too big.

We can consider to document in the Wiki, how to change the 
main_transform.xsl file to show the file path.


Kind regards
Regina

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Help Writer's Guidelines

[toki]

On 24/11/2015 12:32, ptoye wrote:

>> To supplement those guidelines, it recommends:
>> * _The Chicago Manual of Style_. University of Chicago Press;
>> * _Read Me First! A Style Guide for the Computer Industry_. Sun
>> Microsystems;
>> * _The Modern Language Association (MLA) guidelines_;

> Are the documents you mention available on the Web? 

All three books are commercially distributed.  You should be able to
find them on Amazon, or your usual ebook vendor.

jonathon


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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Can I help?

[Peter Toye]

Hi Lera,

Thanks for your comments. As a first-time producer of LO documentation I wasn't 
sure about the MS Office reference. I put it in as many years ago I used 
Office, and found that the LO syntax rules for parameter names/prompts a bit 
confusing when I tried to put some spaces in. But I'm 100% happy for you to 
remove that paragraph. I realise that LO is nothing whatsoever to do with 
Office!

"Designer/developer". No problem with changing it. Your wording is better. I 
should have thought of it.

"User". We need some word to describe the person who is using the database, as 
opposed to the person developing it. After all, the concept of the parameter 
query was designed to allow the person using the database to input parameter 
values. Do you have a better word? Maybe recast the sentences using it to say 
something like "at run-time". If you prefer that I'll send a revised version 
in, but I think it will be difficult not to mention the fact that it's a human 
being that inputs the parameter value.

Your English is better than my Russian!

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:l...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Monday, November 23, 2015, 6:31:21 PM, you wrote:

> Hi Peter,

> Your changes look very good. It really begins to look more professional and
> easier to read and translate. Thank you a lot for your contribution. I can
> prepare the patch in the nearest future.

> I have only a few proposals.
> We can not use a reference to an application of a competitive office suite 
> like
> MS Access. In the official Help this looks very strange. If we assume that a
> human can have difficulties in learning LibreOffice from habits to work with
> another popular office application, we need to tell about differences, but
> without using reference to this application. LibreOffice is not a fork of MSO.
> There are many other office suites as GoogleDrive, GNOME Office, Calligra 
> Suite
> etc. And we should not make a comparative table out of the Help.
> I think that the sentence “For designers familiar with Access, the prompt is
> more restricted as it cannot contain spaces or reserved characters.” needs
> changing.

> A mention of a user does not let the Help to look professional. In my opinion,
> this can be done for a Guide or FAQ, but we need to avoid it, and to focus on
> a functional description.

> The last, for me “designers of a database” looks strange. I am used to see
> “developers of a database”. I am not an English native speaker, and I can not
> be sure, but when I get the order on a database, usually I am called 
> “developer”. I really don't know what we need to use in this case, just to
> draw your attention.

> What do you think about these?

> Best regards,
> Lera
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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Martin Srebotnjak]

2015-11-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 Jan Holesovsky :
> actually makes me think that only a small fraction of translators would
> be actually disrupted, because for those using Pootle, it would be
> transparent.  So did I misunderstand?
>

Probably Slovenian would be actually disrupted, and other "offline"
localization teams, I do not have a list.

Lp, m.

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice Tips

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Does anyone have any brief quick tips that might help people get more
out of LibreOffice.  If so please send them to Italo Vignoli

it...@libreoffice.org

I think they are looking for things to tweet or gibber or as @Opening
tips@ as some programs have when first opening a program/game.
Regards from
Tom :)





On 24 November 2015 at 00:42, Italo Vignoli  wrote:


> We are collecting tips related to LibreOffice - any kind: configuration,
> deployment, howto, workarounds, suggestions - to spend as "gifts" for
> users during the upcoming Xmas season. Cloph has already collected a
> number of development tips, and we would like to complete the picture
> adding tips in other areas.
>
> --
> Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR
> mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org
> hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli
> GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
> DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0
>
>

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Sveinn í Felli]

Þann þri 24.nóv 2015 15:35, skrifaði Martin Srebotnjak:

2015-11-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 Jan Holesovsky :

actually makes me think that only a small fraction of translators would
be actually disrupted, because for those using Pootle, it would be
transparent.  So did I misunderstand?



Probably Slovenian would be actually disrupted, and other "offline"
localization teams, I do not have a list.

Lp, m.



Martin, I prefer translating offline, and honestly I fail to see too 
much of a problem if the helpfiles were renamed from 01.po, 02.po to 
something more meaningful. And if comments and msgctx fields are to be 
changed - why not...



(I do regenerate my translation memories regularly)

Sveinn í Felli

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[ptoye]

Hi Jan,

I think that you are writing about me. But I should point out that Sophi and 
Regina here were extremely helpful and showed me the main_transform file which 
puts the file name and path at the head of the text. Then I found the file I 
wanted immediately. 

I agree that meaningful file names might help - but in which language? Even US 
and UK English may differ. And I've no idea what the Czech for "query" is!

An even higher barrier is that my system is based on Windows, and most of the 
tools used here are Unix-based - you mention grep. There are almost certainly 
Windows equivalents, but they take a bit of finding and don't always work too 
well.

I appreciate your views, and your support for me, but I have to agree with 
Martin.

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:l...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Tuesday, November 24, 2015, 3:30:23 PM, you wrote:


Hi Martin, 



We have just seen a guy interested in editing help, and this was one of 
his struggles there - that he just couldn't find the help file he needs 
to edit.  Asking him to grep all the main0123.xhp files (and alike) is 
just as nice as telling him "go away, we don't want you" :-( 



-
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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Can I help?

[ptoye]

Hi Lera,

Thanks for your comments. As a first-time producer of LO documentation I wasn't 
sure about the MS Office reference. I put it in as many years ago I used 
Office, and found that the LO syntax rules for parameter names/prompts a bit 
confusing when I tried to put some spaces in. But I'm 100% happy for you to 
remove that paragraph. I realise that LO is nothing whatsoever to do with 
Office!

"Designer/developer". No problem with changing it. Your wording is better. I 
should have thought of it.

"User". We need some way to distinguish the person who is using the database 
from the person developing it. After all, the concept of the parameter query 
was designed to allow the person using the database to input parameter values. 
Do you have a better word? Maybe recast the sentences using it to say something 
like "at run-time" (which is in the first sentence. If you prefer that I'll 
send a revised version in, but I think it will be difficult not to mention the 
fact that it's a human being that inputs the parameter value. I notice that the 
original version had "you" - whoever that might be - which strikes me as even 
less professional.

There's also the problem of the paragraph which I didn't understand. I think 
that what the original author was trying to say was that parameter queries are 
commonly used in subforms to restrict the records to be displayed. Is that your 
impression? If so, I can rewrite it. It also should be moved to the section on 
Parameter queries - it's nothing to do with input.

Your English is better than my Russian!

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:l...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Monday, November 23, 2015, 6:31:57 PM, you wrote:


Hi Peter, 

Your changes look very good. It really begins to look more professional and 
easier to read and translate. Thank you a lot for your contribution. I can 
prepare the patch in the nearest future. 

I have only a few proposals. 
We can not use a reference to an application of a competitive office suite like 
MS Access. In the official Help this looks very strange. If we assume that a 
human can have difficulties in learning LibreOffice from habits to work with 
another popular office application, we need to tell about differences, but 
without using reference to this application. LibreOffice is not a fork of MSO. 
There are many other office suites as GoogleDrive, GNOME Office, Calligra Suite 
etc. And we should not make a comparative table out of the Help. 
I think that the sentence “For designers familiar with Access, the prompt is 
more restricted as it cannot contain spaces or reserved characters.” needs 
changing. 

A mention of a user does not let the Help to look professional. In my opinion, 
this can be done for a Guide or FAQ, but we need to avoid it, and to focus on 
a functional description. 

The last, for me “designers of a database” looks strange. I am used to see 
“developers of a database”. I am not an English native speaker, and I can not 
be sure, but when I get the order on a database, usually I am called 
“developer”. I really don't know what we need to use in this case, just to 
draw your attention. 

What do you think about these? 

Best regards, 
Lera 

В письме от 20 ноября 2015 11:06:10 пользователь ptoye написал: 

> Regina, 
> 
> Thanks Regina. I've already noted this as a bug so I'll attach it there. 
> Thanks ever so much for your help and patience with a (LO documentation) 
> beginner. 
> 
> Best regards, 
> 
> Peter 
> mailto:[hidden email] 
> www.ptoye.com 
> 
> - 
> Friday, November 20, 2015, 3:51:53 PM, you wrote: 
> 
> 
> Hi Peter, 
> 
> ptoye schrieb: 
> > Thanks Regina - I got it and installed it. I've now amended the relevant 
> > help page. Do I upload the whole page here, or just the bits I changed? 
> > Or send it somewhere else? 
> 
> This list strips attachments, therefore you cannot attach it here. 
> 
> LibreOffice uses its Bugzilla to track bugs, enhancements and feature 
> requests. For how to use Bugzilla see 
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugReport#Submitting_a_bug
> 
> If you do not have a Bugzilla account yet, you need to create one. 
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/createaccount.cgi
> 
> With using Bugzilla and an account there, your changes get the correct 
> license automatically. 
> 
> "Product" is of cause LibreOffice. 
> For changes in the help pages use the component "Documentation". 
> 
> I think it is better to attach the whole file. That way others can 
> generate a diff file, which is needed in the further work flow. 
> 
> Look, whether a bug exists, that already describe the problem. If yes, 
> then attach the changed file there. 
> 
> If no bug exists, create a new report. When creating a new report the 
> form will have a button "Add an attachment". Use that to attach the 
> changed file. Do not forget to describe, why the current version of the 
> help page is wrong. 
> 
> Kind regards 
> Regina 


-- 
To 

[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Help Writer's Guidelines

[ptoye]

toki wrote
> There is _Chapter 5 Style Guide_ in _The LibreOffice Contributor's Guide_.
> 
> To supplement those guidelines, it recommends:
> * _The Chicago Manual of Style_. University of Chicago Press;
> * _Read Me First! A Style Guide for the Computer Industry_. Sun
> Microsystems;
> * _The Modern Language Association (MLA) guidelines_;
> 
> jonathon

Are the documents you mention available on the Web? I found the Chicago
Manual of Style, but my browser has an adblocker and the download failed.

MLA seems more oriented towards academic than technical writing.




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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Andras Timar]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Jan Holesovsky  wrote:
> Hi Regina, all,
>
> Regina Henschel píše v St 18. 11. 2015 v 21:32 +0100:
>
>> most of the file names are build of numbers and it
>> is hard to identify the relevant file.
>
> That's indeed true :-)
>
> I wonder - would a large scale rename to something more readable (like
> eg. filename constructed from the  tag) be more appreciated by
> people editing help?
>
> L10n people - any blockers from the tooling point of view that hinder
> that, please?  Would it mean that the .po files have to be renamed too,
> and if yes, it is possible to do that somehow automatically?

.po files are named after directories, not after files. In .po files
file names are there in #: comments and in msgctx fields. It is
possible to automatically replace file names in git and in Pootle, but
this can cause disruption for translators who work offline, and
translation memories have to be regenerated.

Regards,
Andras

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Please, once more, do not do any "l'art pour l'art"-istic changes that
might cause any kind of trouble to localizers.

There are many more things to invest time and will in first - to write
missing help content, to edit the help content, to make
wiki-served-help fully localizable, to have manuals (getting started
guides) up-to-date etc.

Most localizers localize from Pootle and I am sure that po files there
could be given additional description what part of UI or help they
cover, if really someone feels lost.

Lp, m.

2015-11-24 13:22 GMT+01:00 Andras Timar :
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Jan Holesovsky  wrote:
>> Hi Regina, all,
>>
>> Regina Henschel píše v St 18. 11. 2015 v 21:32 +0100:
>>
>>> most of the file names are build of numbers and it
>>> is hard to identify the relevant file.
>>
>> That's indeed true :-)
>>
>> I wonder - would a large scale rename to something more readable (like
>> eg. filename constructed from the  tag) be more appreciated by
>> people editing help?
>>
>> L10n people - any blockers from the tooling point of view that hinder
>> that, please?  Would it mean that the .po files have to be renamed too,
>> and if yes, it is possible to do that somehow automatically?
>
> .po files are named after directories, not after files. In .po files
> file names are there in #: comments and in msgctx fields. It is
> possible to automatically replace file names in git and in Pootle, but
> this can cause disruption for translators who work offline, and
> translation memories have to be regenerated.
>
> Regards,
> Andras
>
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[libreoffice-documentation] Possible help files rename?

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Regina, all,

Regina Henschel píše v St 18. 11. 2015 v 21:32 +0100:

> most of the file names are build of numbers and it 
> is hard to identify the relevant file.

That's indeed true :-)

I wonder - would a large scale rename to something more readable (like
eg. filename constructed from the  tag) be more appreciated by
people editing help?

L10n people - any blockers from the tooling point of view that hinder
that, please?  Would it mean that the .po files have to be renamed too,
and if yes, it is possible to do that somehow automatically?

All the best,
Kendy


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[libreoffice-documentation] Annual report reminder, participate now!

[Sophie]

Hi all,

This is a reminder that we will very soon begin to work on the annual
report. If you have not done so yet, please fill the pad with any
information that is relevant to the report and the community activities.
Last year we had a very nice and interesting one, it was all due to your
help in writing it, we hope to have even more to compile this year :)
Thanks a lot in advance for your help!
http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/annualreport

Cheers
Sophie

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