Re: [Elecraft] 99.9 % alcohol

[MIKE ZANE]

AKA "Torpedo Juice"?
> On 07/14/2021 5:04 PM Ed Pflueger  wrote:
> 
>  
> I'm in Kentucky we call it White Lightening.  In the Navy we used 190 proof
> to clean the salinity cells.
> 
> Ed.. AB4IQ
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of John Simmons
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 6:51 PM
> To: Elecraft 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 99.9 % alcohol
> 
> Here in the USA it is called 'denatured alchohol'. Cheapest to buy in the
> paint department of the big-box stores. Or, at the liquor store as
> "Everclear" hi hi
> 
> -de John NI0K
> 
> brianpepperdine brianpepperdine wrote on 7/14/2021 6:41 PM:
> > I have no idea, obviously, what the USA market offers, but here we get 
> > 99.9% (not 90%) isoprophyl alcohol. So much the better re. less residue of
> course.
> > Admittedly it was a bit hard to get at the beginning of the pandemic 
> > but that seemed resolved with a couple months.
> >
> > Ages past I had to ask the pharmacist for it and he decanted it from a 
> > large bottle behind the counter into a small bottle for me.
> > He said you are either diabetic or into electronics, as I think that 
> > was the main call for it. Largely they sold the smaller percentage 
> > stuff for rubbing and sores.
> > Here is is stocked on the shelf now already packaged, in the first aid 
> > area (right next to the alcohol swabs).
> >
> > If hard to find you might ask your pharmacist.. its possible they have 
> > it behind the counter for the real need purposes, or he can suggest if he
> can order-in.
> > You never know. I doubt at this time now that there is any real supply 
> > shortage, IMHO"
> >
> > Brian VE3HI  Toronto
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
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> > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
> > jasimm...@pinewooddata.com
> 
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[Elecraft] Fw: 99.9 % alcohol

[James Driskell]

From: James Driskell 
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 17:11
To: John Simmons 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 99.9 % alcohol

Not quite.  Denatured alcohol is ethyl alcohol that contains methyl alcohol or 
isopropyl alcohol which make the mixture unfit for drinking.  Pure ethyl 
alcohol is drinkable (it's the kick in your booze), but probably contains at 
least 5% water because of its nature to absorb water.  Absolute ethyl or 
isopropyl alcohol is at least 99% pure.  Unless securely sealed, the alcohols 
will absorb water winding up at about 95+% alcohol.  99% isopropyl alcohol is 
available from https://artnaturals.com/
[https://artnaturals.com/media/default/default/MainBanner_Mobile.jpg]
Essential Oils | Diffusers | Skin & Bath & Body | Hair 
Care
Try artnaturals® 100% Pure Essential Oils, Argan Oil hair care, skin care, bath 
and body beauty products. Over 4 Million sold, made with only natural and 
organic ingredients.
artnaturals.com
Everclear (sometimes called Georgia Moon) may run as high as 95% (190 proof), 
but you need to be careful with that stuff because it will stomp you and you 
don't dare smoke for 48 hours.

73,

Jim Driskell
W7OWI


From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on 
behalf of John Simmons 
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 16:51
To: Elecraft 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 99.9 % alcohol

Here in the USA it is called 'denatured alchohol'. Cheapest to buy in
the paint department of the big-box stores. Or, at the liquor store as
"Everclear" hi hi

-de John NI0K

brianpepperdine brianpepperdine wrote on 7/14/2021 6:41 PM:
> I have no idea, obviously, what the USA market offers, but here we get 99.9%
> (not 90%) isoprophyl alcohol. So much the better re. less residue of course.
> Admittedly it was a bit hard to get at the beginning of the pandemic but that
> seemed resolved with a couple months.
>
> Ages past I had to ask the pharmacist for it and he decanted it from a large
> bottle behind the counter into a small bottle for me.
> He said you are either diabetic or into electronics, as I think that was the
> main call for it. Largely they sold the smaller percentage stuff for rubbing 
> and
> sores.
> Here is is stocked on the shelf now already packaged, in the first aid area
> (right next to the alcohol swabs).
>
> If hard to find you might ask your pharmacist.. its possible they have it 
> behind
> the counter for the real need purposes, or he can suggest if he can order-in.
> You never know. I doubt at this time now that there is any real supply 
> shortage,
> IMHO"
>
> Brian VE3HI  Toronto
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Re: [Elecraft] 99.9 % alcohol

[Dr. William J. Schmidt]

Isopropanol is never denatured because its not consumable by humans.  Only 
materials that are consumable are denatured, and that is usually done by adding 
natural gasoline (pentanes) to make it poison, and this is usually used in the 
fuel industry for blending with gasoline.  Ethanol (drinkable) is, indeed a 
maximum of 90% pure due to the azeotrope that is formed with ethanol and water 
that causes a pinch point and lack of ability to distill it into a more pure 
form.  Distilling above 90% can be done by adding a third substance to get 
around the Azeotropic pinch point, or by use of sieves to absorb water.


Dr. William J. Schmidt (one of my Ph.D. is in Chemical Engineering)



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of John Marvin
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 7:00 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 99.9 % alcohol

Anything above 95% or so requires processes beyond just distillation, i.e. you 
are getting into the lab grade region. Prices usually go up significantly for 
that.

Of course, in many states you can buy 190 proof Everclear (95% grain
alcohol) at a liquor store.  Might be easier to find than lab grade alcohol.  
One advantage is that since it is not denatured, the fumes are significantly 
less toxic.

Since alcohol is hydrophilic, it helps to evaporate the water that makes up the 
rest of the alcohol mixture. I suspect that getting much above 90% doesn't 
yield significant improvement in evaporation time. But we obviously have 
examples here where using something higher than 90% would be more desirable if 
you are not spot cleaning and don't want to wait.

Regards,

John AC0ZG

On 7/14/2021 5:41 PM, brianpepperdine brianpepperdine wrote:
> I have no idea, obviously, what the USA market offers, but here we get 
> 99.9% (not 90%) isoprophyl alcohol. So much the better re. less residue of 
> course.
> Admittedly it was a bit hard to get at the beginning of the pandemic 
> but that seemed resolved with a couple months.
>
> Ages past I had to ask the pharmacist for it and he decanted it from a 
> large bottle behind the counter into a small bottle for me.
> He said you are either diabetic or into electronics, as I think that 
> was the main call for it. Largely they sold the smaller percentage 
> stuff for rubbing and sores.
> Here is is stocked on the shelf now already packaged, in the first aid 
> area (right next to the alcohol swabs).
>
> If hard to find you might ask your pharmacist.. its possible they have 
> it behind the counter for the real need purposes, or he can suggest if he can 
> order-in.
> You never know. I doubt at this time now that there is any real supply 
> shortage, IMHO"
>
> Brian VE3HI  Toronto
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email 
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
> jm...@themarvins.org


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Re: [Elecraft] 99.9 % alcohol

[Ed Pflueger]

I'm in Kentucky we call it White Lightening.  In the Navy we used 190 proof
to clean the salinity cells.

Ed.. AB4IQ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of John Simmons
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 6:51 PM
To: Elecraft 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 99.9 % alcohol

Here in the USA it is called 'denatured alchohol'. Cheapest to buy in the
paint department of the big-box stores. Or, at the liquor store as
"Everclear" hi hi

-de John NI0K

brianpepperdine brianpepperdine wrote on 7/14/2021 6:41 PM:
> I have no idea, obviously, what the USA market offers, but here we get 
> 99.9% (not 90%) isoprophyl alcohol. So much the better re. less residue of
course.
> Admittedly it was a bit hard to get at the beginning of the pandemic 
> but that seemed resolved with a couple months.
>
> Ages past I had to ask the pharmacist for it and he decanted it from a 
> large bottle behind the counter into a small bottle for me.
> He said you are either diabetic or into electronics, as I think that 
> was the main call for it. Largely they sold the smaller percentage 
> stuff for rubbing and sores.
> Here is is stocked on the shelf now already packaged, in the first aid 
> area (right next to the alcohol swabs).
>
> If hard to find you might ask your pharmacist.. its possible they have 
> it behind the counter for the real need purposes, or he can suggest if he
can order-in.
> You never know. I doubt at this time now that there is any real supply 
> shortage, IMHO"
>
> Brian VE3HI  Toronto
> __
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> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
> jasimm...@pinewooddata.com

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Re: [Elecraft] 99.9 % alcohol

[John Marvin]

Anything above 95% or so requires processes beyond just distillation, 
i.e. you are getting into the lab grade region. Prices usually go up 
significantly for that.


Of course, in many states you can buy 190 proof Everclear (95% grain 
alcohol) at a liquor store.  Might be easier to find than lab grade 
alcohol.  One advantage is that since it is not denatured, the fumes are 
significantly less toxic.


Since alcohol is hydrophilic, it helps to evaporate the water that makes 
up the rest of the alcohol mixture. I suspect that getting much above 
90% doesn't yield significant improvement in evaporation time. But we 
obviously have examples here where using something higher than 90% would 
be more desirable if you are not spot cleaning and don't want to wait.


Regards,

John AC0ZG

On 7/14/2021 5:41 PM, brianpepperdine brianpepperdine wrote:

I have no idea, obviously, what the USA market offers, but here we get 99.9%
(not 90%) isoprophyl alcohol. So much the better re. less residue of course.
Admittedly it was a bit hard to get at the beginning of the pandemic but that
seemed resolved with a couple months.

Ages past I had to ask the pharmacist for it and he decanted it from a large
bottle behind the counter into a small bottle for me.
He said you are either diabetic or into electronics, as I think that was the
main call for it. Largely they sold the smaller percentage stuff for rubbing and
sores.
Here is is stocked on the shelf now already packaged, in the first aid area
(right next to the alcohol swabs).

If hard to find you might ask your pharmacist.. its possible they have it behind
the counter for the real need purposes, or he can suggest if he can order-in.
You never know. I doubt at this time now that there is any real supply shortage,
IMHO"

Brian VE3HI  Toronto
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Re: [Elecraft] 99.9 % alcohol

[John Simmons]

Here in the USA it is called 'denatured alchohol'. Cheapest to buy in 
the paint department of the big-box stores. Or, at the liquor store as 
"Everclear" hi hi


-de John NI0K

brianpepperdine brianpepperdine wrote on 7/14/2021 6:41 PM:

I have no idea, obviously, what the USA market offers, but here we get 99.9%
(not 90%) isoprophyl alcohol. So much the better re. less residue of course.
Admittedly it was a bit hard to get at the beginning of the pandemic but that
seemed resolved with a couple months.

Ages past I had to ask the pharmacist for it and he decanted it from a large
bottle behind the counter into a small bottle for me.
He said you are either diabetic or into electronics, as I think that was the
main call for it. Largely they sold the smaller percentage stuff for rubbing and
sores.
Here is is stocked on the shelf now already packaged, in the first aid area
(right next to the alcohol swabs).

If hard to find you might ask your pharmacist.. its possible they have it behind
the counter for the real need purposes, or he can suggest if he can order-in.
You never know. I doubt at this time now that there is any real supply shortage,
IMHO"

Brian VE3HI  Toronto
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[Elecraft] 99.9 % alcohol

[brianpepperdine brianpepperdine]

I have no idea, obviously, what the USA market offers, but here we get 99.9%
(not 90%) isoprophyl alcohol. So much the better re. less residue of course.
Admittedly it was a bit hard to get at the beginning of the pandemic but that
seemed resolved with a couple months.

Ages past I had to ask the pharmacist for it and he decanted it from a large
bottle behind the counter into a small bottle for me.
He said you are either diabetic or into electronics, as I think that was the
main call for it. Largely they sold the smaller percentage stuff for rubbing and
sores.
Here is is stocked on the shelf now already packaged, in the first aid area
(right next to the alcohol swabs).

If hard to find you might ask your pharmacist.. its possible they have it behind
the counter for the real need purposes, or he can suggest if he can order-in.
You never know. I doubt at this time now that there is any real supply shortage,
IMHO"

Brian VE3HI  Toronto
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Re: [Elecraft] Broke my K2 :(

[Steve Lawrence via Elecraft]

99% Isopropyl is available from Uline. Aerospace industry standard is 
Miller-Stephenson Contact Re-Nu MS-530. Evaporates quickly and leaves no 
residue. Great stuff but pricey and you'll have to work to find it.

GL - Steve WB6RSE

> 
> Yup, it's the 90% stuff.  It was impossible to get a year ago, but not
> too bad now.  Still, I had to wait a month or so when I ordered it from
> Amazon.
> 
>  - Jerry KF6VB
> 
> 
> 
> On 2021-07-14 16:06, John Marvin wrote:
>> Hopefully this is obvious, but make sure you are using the 90-91%
>> isopropyl alcohol, and not the 70% variety. It can still be hard to
>> get the 90% variety these days.
>> 73,
>> John  - AC0ZG
>> On 7/14/2021 4:41 PM, Peter Eijlander (PA0PJE) wrote:
>>> Yes Jerry, isopropyl alcohol does this!
>>> I once cleaned a working print of a GPS receiver with isopropyl alcohol and 
>>> it stopped working. Letting it be and trying it again next day turned out 
>>> it worked perfectly again.
>>>  From then on I leave a PCB to rest after cleaning to have the IPA dry out 
>>> completely...
>>> 73,
>>> Peter - PA0PJE
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Re: [Elecraft] Broke my K2 :(

[Don Wilhelm]

When I have cleaned boards with IPA or other cleaners, I apply the IPA 
only in a small spot with a q-tip and then blot it with a paper towel to 
help dry it - do not flood the board.
I generally do not recommend cleaning boards, solder flux is 
non-conductive and will normally not cause a problem.
I only clean when the solder flux residue is really nasty as might occur 
with Kester 44 solder.
Use of a solder with a mildly reactive flux (Kester 385) will reduce the 
need for cleaning the board - there is almost no residue.


If you do choose to clean the board, make sure your cleaning work is 
complete.  While solder flux is non-conductive, the flux plus the 
cleaner may be conductive leading to resistive leakage paths. If you can 
see any white stuff on the board, you have not done a complete job.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/14/2021 6:41 PM, Peter Eijlander (PA0PJE) wrote:

Yes Jerry, isopropyl alcohol does this!
I once cleaned a working print of a GPS receiver with isopropyl 
alcohol and it stopped working. Letting it be and trying it again next 
day turned out it worked perfectly again.


 From then on I leave a PCB to rest after cleaning to have the IPA dry 
out completely...




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Re: [Elecraft] Broke my K2 :(

[jerry]

Yup, it's the 90% stuff.  It was impossible to get a year ago, but not
too bad now.  Still, I had to wait a month or so when I ordered it from
Amazon.

  - Jerry KF6VB



On 2021-07-14 16:06, John Marvin wrote:

Hopefully this is obvious, but make sure you are using the 90-91%
isopropyl alcohol, and not the 70% variety. It can still be hard to
get the 90% variety these days.

73,
John  - AC0ZG

On 7/14/2021 4:41 PM, Peter Eijlander (PA0PJE) wrote:

Yes Jerry, isopropyl alcohol does this!
I once cleaned a working print of a GPS receiver with isopropyl 
alcohol and it stopped working. Letting it be and trying it again next 
day turned out it worked perfectly again.


 From then on I leave a PCB to rest after cleaning to have the IPA dry 
out completely...


73,
Peter - PA0PJE





Op 14-07-2021 om 14:54 schreef jerry:
Actually, I suspect that when I scrubbed it with isopropyl alcohol, 
it

shorted out

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Re: [Elecraft] Broke my K2 :(

[John Marvin]

Hopefully this is obvious, but make sure you are using the 90-91% 
isopropyl alcohol, and not the 70% variety. It can still be hard to get 
the 90% variety these days.


73,
John  - AC0ZG

On 7/14/2021 4:41 PM, Peter Eijlander (PA0PJE) wrote:

Yes Jerry, isopropyl alcohol does this!
I once cleaned a working print of a GPS receiver with isopropyl 
alcohol and it stopped working. Letting it be and trying it again next 
day turned out it worked perfectly again.


 From then on I leave a PCB to rest after cleaning to have the IPA dry 
out completely...


73,
Peter - PA0PJE





Op 14-07-2021 om 14:54 schreef jerry:

Actually, I suspect that when I scrubbed it with isopropyl alcohol, it
shorted out

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[Elecraft] Shipping timeline (not K4)

[Douglas Hagerman via Elecraft]

FYI I ordered a battery kit for my K2 this morning, and the order was marked as 
shipped in only a few hours. So the system seems to be working as designed—at 
least for stuff that is in stock!

Doug, W0UHU.
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Re: [Elecraft] Broke my K2 :(

[Peter Eijlander (PA0PJE)]

Yes Jerry, isopropyl alcohol does this!
I once cleaned a working print of a GPS receiver with isopropyl alcohol 
and it stopped working. Letting it be and trying it again next day 
turned out it worked perfectly again.


 From then on I leave a PCB to rest after cleaning to have the IPA dry 
out completely...


73,
Peter - PA0PJE





Op 14-07-2021 om 14:54 schreef jerry:

Actually, I suspect that when I scrubbed it with isopropyl alcohol, it
shorted out

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Re: [Elecraft] Question about antenna matching

[David Gilbert]

Actually, I never suggested a Q for the coil.  Al must have been 
thinking about somebody else when he said that part, although the rest 
of what he attributed to me is accurate.  I usually use a Q of 200  for 
an air core coil if I'm trying to be conservative, but a Q of 400 is 
reasonable if you have room for a coil of decent size and as you say, 
700-800 is achievable if you have the ability to optimize it.   I have 
no idea what the Q of a ferrite core inductor in a typical antenna tuner is.


Your description of the MN-2700 makes me want to go look for one. ;)

73,
Dave   AB7E



On 7/14/2021 3:49 AM, Alan Bloom wrote:
The Drake tuners used a Pi-L circuit topology in which the circulating 
current in the inductor is independent of the load impedance. Assuming 
almost all the loss is in the inductor, that means that the loss is 
independent of the load impedance.


(Another advantage of that topology is you get good harmonic 
suppression for all load impedances.)


So when I was designing the Drake MN-2700 I just measured the loss 
into a 50 ohm load and made sure it was less than the 0.5 dB spec with 
some margin.  That won't work when using most topologies (such as the 
L networks used in the Elecraft tuners) because the loss does change 
drastically depending on the load impedance.  For those, you can use 
two identical tuners back to back, both adjusted for the same load 
impedance.  The loss for each tuner is approximately half the measured 
loss.  (I think I did do a few tests like that on the MN-2700 just as 
a sanity check.)


I found that the hardest band to get to meet all specs (5:1 SWR, 0.5 
dB loss, 1000W average, 2000W PEP) was 160 meters.  That's partly 
because it is hard to get a high-inductance, super high-Q coil small 
enough to fit in the cabinet and partly because of the large 
capacitances required.  (The MN-2700 has 3-position switches to add 
fixed capacitance to each tuning capacitor.)


To measure the matching capability at different phase angles, I just 
connected a 50-ohm load to the input and an HP impedance analyzer to 
the output.  By adjusting each tuning capacitor throughout its range 
and plotting the results on a Smith chart you can see the (complex 
conjugate of the) matching range.  Actually the output impedance of 
the tuner and the antenna impedance it matches are not exactly 
conjugates, but are close as long as the tuner insertion loss is low.


As suggested by Dave, I chose typical Q values of 100 for the inductor


The coils in the MN-2700 have much higher Q than that.  To such an 
extent that it was difficult to get accurate readings on an HP 
Q-meter.  But by tightening the connecting bolts down as hard as 
possible and making sure there were no absorbing objects (like human 
hands) in the near field of the inductor I was getting values in the 
700-800 range on some bands as I recall.  (These were all air-wound 
solenoidal inductors.)


Alan N1AL


On 7/13/2021 10:32 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
Thanks to Al N1AL, Jack W6FB, and Dave AB7E for great information 
that helped me a lot.


I'm in the circuit simulation business, after all, and I confess that 
I was just being lazy, so I ran some simulations that confirmed what 
Dave, in particular, had said.


As suggested by Dave, I chose typical Q values of 100 for the 
inductor and 1000 for the capacitor. Then I simulated as many points 
as I could on the entire Smith Chart to see 1/ if the tuner could 
tune each point to 50 ohms, and 2/ what the power loss was in the 
tuner at each of those points. Then, I discovered that K6JCA had 
already done this on his excellent blog 
at:  https://k6jca.blogspot.com/2015/03/notes-on-antenna-tuners-l-network-and.html . The 
guy is totally professional and exhaustive in his discussions. I 
really admire his work.


Anyway, it turns out you can make a graph of power lost in the tuner 
versus phase angle of the load. As you might suspect, 'easy' loads of 
5 or 500 ohms resistive (SWR = 10:1) don't tax a tuner as much as 
reactive loads do. In fact, they're near (but interestingly, not at) 
the areas of *minimum* power loss.


Whenever an antenna tuner is reviewed in QST, resistive mismatched 
loads are usually used. I'd like to see tuners tested with reactive 
loads, but the number of loads required to do this from 160 to 10 
meters would be enormous. I see why resistive loads are preferred, 
because you can re-use the loads on every band.


I'm frustrated by imprecise statements like, "This tuner will tune an 
8:1 mismatch." What does that mean? There has to be a better way for 
manufacturers to spec the exact impedance ranges that their tuners 
will tune. I like the method that I used, which shades a Smith Chart 
in color based on the two criteria I listed above. One picture would 
tell you all about a tuner's effectiveness. No real tuner can tune 
the entire Smith Chart, but the more of the chart that is covered, 
the better the tuner. And if you can shade the areas of higher 

Re: [Elecraft] Broke my K2 :(

[jerry]

On 2021-07-07 12:29, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:

Remember PTTL?
Poorly Tinned Toroid Leads.


Actually, I suspect that when I scrubbed it with isopropyl alcohol, it 
shorted out

one or more high-impedance crystals; because at one point, it was tuning
WWV with no heterodynes - just like an AM receiver.  When the IPA dried 
off, it came back.


  - Jerry KF6VB

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Re: [Elecraft] Question about antenna matching

[Alan Bloom]

The Drake tuners used a Pi-L circuit topology in which the circulating 
current in the inductor is independent of the load impedance.  Assuming 
almost all the loss is in the inductor, that means that the loss is 
independent of the load impedance.


(Another advantage of that topology is you get good harmonic suppression 
for all load impedances.)


So when I was designing the Drake MN-2700 I just measured the loss into 
a 50 ohm load and made sure it was less than the 0.5 dB spec with some 
margin.  That won't work when using most topologies (such as the L 
networks used in the Elecraft tuners) because the loss does change 
drastically depending on the load impedance.  For those, you can use two 
identical tuners back to back, both adjusted for the same load 
impedance.  The loss for each tuner is approximately half the measured 
loss.  (I think I did do a few tests like that on the MN-2700 just as a 
sanity check.)


I found that the hardest band to get to meet all specs (5:1 SWR, 0.5 dB 
loss, 1000W average, 2000W PEP) was 160 meters.  That's partly because 
it is hard to get a high-inductance, super high-Q coil small enough to 
fit in the cabinet and partly because of the large capacitances 
required.  (The MN-2700 has 3-position switches to add fixed capacitance 
to each tuning capacitor.)


To measure the matching capability at different phase angles, I just 
connected a 50-ohm load to the input and an HP impedance analyzer to the 
output.  By adjusting each tuning capacitor throughout its range and 
plotting the results on a Smith chart you can see the (complex conjugate 
of the) matching range.  Actually the output impedance of the tuner and 
the antenna impedance it matches are not exactly conjugates, but are 
close as long as the tuner insertion loss is low.


As suggested by Dave, I chose typical Q values of 100 for the inductor


The coils in the MN-2700 have much higher Q than that.  To such an 
extent that it was difficult to get accurate readings on an HP Q-meter.  
But by tightening the connecting bolts down as hard as possible and 
making sure there were no absorbing objects (like human hands) in the 
near field of the inductor I was getting values in the 700-800 range on 
some bands as I recall.  (These were all air-wound solenoidal inductors.)


Alan N1AL


On 7/13/2021 10:32 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

Thanks to Al N1AL, Jack W6FB, and Dave AB7E for great information that helped 
me a lot.

I'm in the circuit simulation business, after all, and I confess that I was 
just being lazy, so I ran some simulations that confirmed what Dave, in 
particular, had said.

As suggested by Dave, I chose typical Q values of 100 for the inductor and 1000 
for the capacitor. Then I simulated as many points as I could on the entire 
Smith Chart to see 1/ if the tuner could tune each point to 50 ohms, and 2/ 
what the power loss was in the tuner at each of those points. Then, I 
discovered that K6JCA had already done this on his excellent blog at:  
https://k6jca.blogspot.com/2015/03/notes-on-antenna-tuners-l-network-and.html . 
The guy is totally professional and exhaustive in his discussions. I really 
admire his work.

Anyway, it turns out you can make a graph of power lost in the tuner versus 
phase angle of the load. As you might suspect, 'easy' loads of 5 or 500 ohms 
resistive (SWR = 10:1) don't tax a tuner as much as reactive loads do. In fact, 
they're near (but interestingly, not at) the areas of *minimum* power loss.

Whenever an antenna tuner is reviewed in QST, resistive mismatched loads are 
usually used. I'd like to see tuners tested with reactive loads, but the number 
of loads required to do this from 160 to 10 meters would be enormous. I see why 
resistive loads are preferred, because you can re-use the loads on every band.

I'm frustrated by imprecise statements like, "This tuner will tune an 8:1 
mismatch." What does that mean? There has to be a better way for manufacturers to 
spec the exact impedance ranges that their tuners will tune. I like the method that I 
used, which shades a Smith Chart in color based on the two criteria I listed above. One 
picture would tell you all about a tuner's effectiveness. No real tuner can tune the 
entire Smith Chart, but the more of the chart that is covered, the better the tuner. And 
if you can shade the areas of higher tuner loss in red, then that would also tell you an 
important piece of information. (However, to generate such a plot through measurement 
you'd probably need a very expensive load-pull setup, which is a totally separate 
discussion.)

For the L-network I simulated, a particularly difficult 10:1 load was near the 7 - 
 j30 ohm point, which is toward the bottom edge of the Smith Chart at a phase 
angle of 282 degrees (or -77 degrees), and a similar point near the top edge. The 
lower impedances with capacitive reactance were definitely the most difficult 
(using power loss as the measure of 'difficulty') for the tuner to handle, which 

Re: [Elecraft] Question about antenna matching

[CUTTER DAVID via Elecraft]

You might find some answers here:
https://www.dj0ip.de/antenna-matchboxes/
On the next page he shows all the results from published data. 

David G3UNA

> On 14 July 2021 at 07:29 Julia Tuttle  wrote:
> 
> 
> That doesn't actually answer the question "what are manufacturers measuring
> when they quote 10:1 matching ability?", and makes a gross and insulting
> generalization about the quality of equipment produced for the amateur
> radio market.
> 
> On Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 01:45 Ray  wrote:
> 
> > The Statement  "This tuner will tune an 8:1 mismatch."
> > Is made in an Armature world, buy an Amateur person,
> > Not for a Professional Product by  Calibrated Test Equipment.
> > This is Not New, it has happened for Decades.  Buyer Beware.
> > WA6VAB  Ray  K3
> >
> >
> > From: Al Lorona
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 9:32 AM
> > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question about antenna matching
> >
> > Thanks to Al N1AL, Jack W6FB, and Dave AB7E for great information that
> > helped me a lot.
> >
> > I'm in the circuit simulation business, after all, and I confess that I
> > was just being lazy, so I ran some simulations that confirmed what Dave, in
> > particular, had said.
> >
> > As suggested by Dave, I chose typical Q values of 100 for the inductor and
> > 1000 for the capacitor. Then I simulated as many points as I could on the
> > entire Smith Chart to see 1/ if the tuner could tune each point to 50 ohms,
> > and 2/ what the power loss was in the tuner at each of those points. Then,
> > I discovered that K6JCA had already done this on his excellent blog at:
> > https://k6jca.blogspot.com/2015/03/notes-on-antenna-tuners-l-network-and.html
> >  . The
> > guy is totally professional and exhaustive in his discussions. I really
> > admire his work.
> >
> > Anyway, it turns out you can make a graph of power lost in the tuner
> > versus phase angle of the load. As you might suspect, 'easy' loads of 5 or
> > 500 ohms resistive (SWR = 10:1) don't tax a tuner as much as reactive loads
> > do. In fact, they're near (but interestingly, not at) the areas of
> > *minimum* power loss.
> >
> > Whenever an antenna tuner is reviewed in QST, resistive mismatched loads
> > are usually used. I'd like to see tuners tested with reactive loads, but
> > the number of loads required to do this from 160 to 10 meters would be
> > enormous. I see why resistive loads are preferred, because you can re-use
> > the loads on every band.
> >
> > I'm frustrated by imprecise statements like, "This tuner will tune an 8:1
> > mismatch." What does that mean? There has to be a better way for
> > manufacturers to spec the exact impedance ranges that their tuners will
> > tune. I like the method that I used, which shades a Smith Chart in color
> > based on the two criteria I listed above. One picture would tell you all
> > about a tuner's effectiveness. No real tuner can tune the entire Smith
> > Chart, but the more of the chart that is covered, the better the tuner. And
> > if you can shade the areas of higher tuner loss in red, then that would
> > also tell you an important piece of information. (However, to generate such
> > a plot through measurement you'd probably need a very expensive load-pull
> > setup, which is a totally separate discussion.)
> >
> > For the L-network I simulated, a particularly difficult 10:1 load was near
> > the 7 -  j30 ohm point, which is toward the bottom edge of the Smith Chart
> > at a phase angle of 282 degrees (or -77 degrees), and a similar point near
> > the top edge. The lower impedances with capacitive reactance were
> > definitely the most difficult (using power loss as the measure of
> > 'difficulty') for the tuner to handle, which Dave stated in his post, while
> > the high impedances with inductive reactance were generally more difficult.
> > If your antenna must be mismatched, and you're using an L-network tuner,
> > you want it to be > 50 ohms with a little bit of capacitive reactance, or
> > below 50 and inductive.
> >
> > By the way, K6JCA actually put the Elecraft KAT500 through this simulated
> > evaluation and it tested so well that he ended up buying one.
> >
> >
> > Al  W6LX/4
> >
> >
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to wa6...@gmail.com
> >
> > __
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> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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> > Message delivered to 

Re: [Elecraft] Question about antenna matching

[Julia Tuttle]

That doesn't actually answer the question "what are manufacturers measuring
when they quote 10:1 matching ability?", and makes a gross and insulting
generalization about the quality of equipment produced for the amateur
radio market.

On Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 01:45 Ray  wrote:

> The Statement  "This tuner will tune an 8:1 mismatch."
> Is made in an Armature world, buy an Amateur person,
> Not for a Professional Product by  Calibrated Test Equipment.
> This is Not New, it has happened for Decades.  Buyer Beware.
> WA6VAB  Ray  K3
>
>
> From: Al Lorona
> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 9:32 AM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question about antenna matching
>
> Thanks to Al N1AL, Jack W6FB, and Dave AB7E for great information that
> helped me a lot.
>
> I'm in the circuit simulation business, after all, and I confess that I
> was just being lazy, so I ran some simulations that confirmed what Dave, in
> particular, had said.
>
> As suggested by Dave, I chose typical Q values of 100 for the inductor and
> 1000 for the capacitor. Then I simulated as many points as I could on the
> entire Smith Chart to see 1/ if the tuner could tune each point to 50 ohms,
> and 2/ what the power loss was in the tuner at each of those points. Then,
> I discovered that K6JCA had already done this on his excellent blog at:
> https://k6jca.blogspot.com/2015/03/notes-on-antenna-tuners-l-network-and.html 
> . The
> guy is totally professional and exhaustive in his discussions. I really
> admire his work.
>
> Anyway, it turns out you can make a graph of power lost in the tuner
> versus phase angle of the load. As you might suspect, 'easy' loads of 5 or
> 500 ohms resistive (SWR = 10:1) don't tax a tuner as much as reactive loads
> do. In fact, they're near (but interestingly, not at) the areas of
> *minimum* power loss.
>
> Whenever an antenna tuner is reviewed in QST, resistive mismatched loads
> are usually used. I'd like to see tuners tested with reactive loads, but
> the number of loads required to do this from 160 to 10 meters would be
> enormous. I see why resistive loads are preferred, because you can re-use
> the loads on every band.
>
> I'm frustrated by imprecise statements like, "This tuner will tune an 8:1
> mismatch." What does that mean? There has to be a better way for
> manufacturers to spec the exact impedance ranges that their tuners will
> tune. I like the method that I used, which shades a Smith Chart in color
> based on the two criteria I listed above. One picture would tell you all
> about a tuner's effectiveness. No real tuner can tune the entire Smith
> Chart, but the more of the chart that is covered, the better the tuner. And
> if you can shade the areas of higher tuner loss in red, then that would
> also tell you an important piece of information. (However, to generate such
> a plot through measurement you'd probably need a very expensive load-pull
> setup, which is a totally separate discussion.)
>
> For the L-network I simulated, a particularly difficult 10:1 load was near
> the 7 -  j30 ohm point, which is toward the bottom edge of the Smith Chart
> at a phase angle of 282 degrees (or -77 degrees), and a similar point near
> the top edge. The lower impedances with capacitive reactance were
> definitely the most difficult (using power loss as the measure of
> 'difficulty') for the tuner to handle, which Dave stated in his post, while
> the high impedances with inductive reactance were generally more difficult.
> If your antenna must be mismatched, and you're using an L-network tuner,
> you want it to be > 50 ohms with a little bit of capacitive reactance, or
> below 50 and inductive.
>
> By the way, K6JCA actually put the Elecraft KAT500 through this simulated
> evaluation and it tested so well that he ended up buying one.
>
>
> Al  W6LX/4
>
>
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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