Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Guys, this thread was closed on Friday.

Eric
Moderator
elecraft.com
_..._



> On Sep 19, 2015, at 12:37 AM, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hmmm...i am told often my sending needs improvement, best I ask which foot is 
> better so I can work on that one. :-)
> Gary 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 4:28 PM
> To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
> 
>> On Fri,9/18/2015 6:43 PM, Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>> It means ..."send with your left foot"...
> 
> Or more specifically, "Now try sending with your LEFT foot," meaning 
> that you sound like your sending with your right foot. :)
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,9/18/2015 6:43 PM, Richard W. Solomon wrote:

It means ..."send with your left foot"...


Or more specifically, "Now try sending with your LEFT foot," meaning 
that you sound like your sending with your right foot. :)


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Gary]

Hmmm...i am told often my sending needs improvement, best I ask which foot is 
better so I can work on that one. :-)
Gary 

-Original Message-
From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 4:28 PM
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

On Fri,9/18/2015 6:43 PM, Richard W. Solomon wrote:
> It means ..."send with your left foot"...

Or more specifically, "Now try sending with your LEFT foot," meaning 
that you sound like your sending with your right foot. :)

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Sverre Holm (LA3ZA)]

The country you may be referring to is Norway, where it has been decided to
switch off all the biggest broadcasters from FM (88-108 MHz) in 2017 as the
first country in the world, http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32380222

It has been a controversial decision, I for one have critized the audio
coding used for sacrificing audio quality in an Audio Engineering Society
presentation in 2007 "Audio Quality on the Air in DAB Digital Radio in
Norway" http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~sverre/papers/07_AES-DAB-Corrected.pdf

But I cannot quite see the relevance for VHF FM for hams.


ae4pb wrote
> I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how
> hard
> it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
> standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM
> permanently
> and switch to DV. 
> 
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324





-
Sverre, LA3ZA

K2 #2198, K3 #3391,
LA3ZA Blog: http://la3za.blogspot.com,
LA3ZA Unofficial Guide to K2 modifications: 
http://la3za.blogspot.com/p/la3za-unofficial-guide-to-elecraft-k2.html
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View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Digital-Voice-Mode-our-future-tp7607903p7607943.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Jerry Moore]

What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key? 
:p

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, S.N. 010324


On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Aah Jim,
>
>Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx
>station calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get
>swamped.
>
>We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.
>
>So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, right
>Wayne?
>
>Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.
>
>Gary 
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
>Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
>To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
>
>On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
>> Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?
>
>It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the many
>
>ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to make
>
>a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even 
>though they are dead when you call.
>
>73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Bob McGraw - K4TAX]

I view that an acceptable digital mode for ham radio has been around 
since day one!   It's called CW.And at one time, it was required of 
all hams to learn to send and receive via the mode.


73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10,163

On 9/18/2015 6:44 PM, Jerry Moore wrote:

What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key?
:p

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, S.N. 010324


On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aah Jim,

Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx
station calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get
swamped.

We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.

So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, right
Wayne?

Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.

Gary


-Original Message-
From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?

It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the many

ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to make

a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even
though they are dead when you call.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Gary]

Good grief

Gary 

-Original Message-
From: "Bob McGraw - K4TAX" <rmcg...@blomand.net>
Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 11:04 AM
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

I view that an acceptable digital mode for ham radio has been around 
since day one!   It's called CW.And at one time, it was required of 
all hams to learn to send and receive via the mode.

73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10,163

On 9/18/2015 6:44 PM, Jerry Moore wrote:
> What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key?
> :p
>
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, S.N. 010324
>
>
> On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Aah Jim,
>>
>> Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx
>> station calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get
>> swamped.
>>
>> We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.
>>
>> So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, right
>> Wayne?
>>
>> Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-----
>> From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
>> Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
>> To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
>>
>> On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
>>> Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?
>> It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the many
>>
>> ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to make
>>
>> a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even
>> though they are dead when you call.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to vk1zzg...@gmail.com
>> __
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to je...@carolinaheli.com


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Gary]

Eric is gonna jump on us pretty quick guys.
Lets not delve into the history of cw and it's dropping from a requirement ok.
I should have learnt cw when I was 12, after 50 I felt like had Alzheimers.
But, perseverance won, took awhile though.
Gary 

-Original Message-
From: "ae...@carolinaheli.com" <ae...@carolinaheli.com>
Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 11:26 AM
To: "'Bob McGraw - K4TAX'" <rmcg...@blomand.net>; "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" 
<elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Yep, when I got my extra 20wpm was still required.. I'm guessing it wasn't but 
a few years after that the requirements started dropping.


Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324




-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bob 
McGraw - K4TAX
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 9:03 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

I view that an acceptable digital mode for ham radio has been around 
since day one!   It's called CW.And at one time, it was required of 
all hams to learn to send and receive via the mode.

73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10,163

On 9/18/2015 6:44 PM, Jerry Moore wrote:
> What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key?
> :p
>
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, S.N. 010324
>
>
> On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Aah Jim,
>>
>> Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx 
>> station calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get 
>> swamped.
>>
>> We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.
>>
>> So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, 
>> right Wayne?
>>
>> Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-----
>> From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
>> Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
>> To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
>>
>> On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
>>> Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?
>> It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the 
>> many
>>
>> ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to 
>> make
>>
>> a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even 
>> though they are dead when you call.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this 
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
>> vk1zzg...@gmail.com 
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this 
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
>> je...@carolinaheli.com


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[ae4pb]

Ah..when I do that folks send QLF...what the heck is that ??? LOL.. :D
Jer



Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324






-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil 
Wheeler
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:59 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Yes. Key is mounted on the side of the hand grip and labeled PTT :-)

Phil W7OX

On 9/18/15 4:44 PM, Jerry Moore wrote:
> What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key?
> :p
>
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, S.N. 010324
>
>
> On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Aah Jim,
>>
>> Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx 
>> station calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get 
>> swamped.
>>
>> We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.
>>
>> So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, 
>> right Wayne?
>>
>> Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
>> Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
>> To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
>>
>> On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
>>> Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?
>> It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the 
>> many
>>
>> ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to 
>> make
>>
>> a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even 
>> though they are dead when you call.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[ae4pb]

LOL yeah, the sales guys are all trained to tell you that you need to order it 
if you need it. But also that the rig supports computer pc headset/electret 
mic. 

 

From: Gary [mailto:vk1zzg...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:50 PM
To: Jerry Moore; j...@audiosystemsgroup.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

 

Jerry,

The microphone I mentioned was I guess an inside joke with Wayne, way back when 
the dark ages got some light, a customer ordered an early k3.

Guess who didn't notice you need to order one?

The look on my face was priceless, for all the rest there's Mastercard right?

Gary 

  _  

From: Jerry Moore <mailto:je...@carolinaheli.com> 
Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 9:44 AM
To: Gary <mailto:vk1zzg...@gmail.com> ; j...@audiosystemsgroup.com; 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key? 
:p

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, S.N. 010324



On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aah Jim,

Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx station 
calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get swamped.

We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.

So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, right Wayne?

Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.

Gary 


-Original Message-
From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
 Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?

It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the many 
ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to make 
a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even 
though they are dead when you call.

73, Jim K9YC

  _  


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  _  


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[ae4pb]

Yep, when I got my extra 20wpm was still required.. I'm guessing it wasn't but 
a few years after that the requirements started dropping.


Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324




-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bob 
McGraw - K4TAX
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 9:03 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

I view that an acceptable digital mode for ham radio has been around 
since day one!   It's called CW.And at one time, it was required of 
all hams to learn to send and receive via the mode.

73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10,163

On 9/18/2015 6:44 PM, Jerry Moore wrote:
> What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key?
> :p
>
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, S.N. 010324
>
>
> On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Aah Jim,
>>
>> Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx 
>> station calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get 
>> swamped.
>>
>> We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.
>>
>> So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, 
>> right Wayne?
>>
>> Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
>> Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
>> To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
>>
>> On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
>>> Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?
>> It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the 
>> many
>>
>> ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to 
>> make
>>
>> a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even 
>> though they are dead when you call.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
>> je...@carolinaheli.com


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Gary]

Jerry,

The microphone I mentioned was I guess an inside joke with Wayne, way back when 
the dark ages got some light, a customer ordered an early k3.

Guess who didn't notice you need to order one?

The look on my face was priceless, for all the rest there's Mastercard right?

Gary 

-Original Message-
From: "Jerry Moore" <je...@carolinaheli.com>
Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 9:44 AM
To: "Gary" <vk1zzg...@gmail.com>; "j...@audiosystemsgroup.com" 
<j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>; "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" 
<elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key? 
:p

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, S.N. 010324



On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:
Aah Jim,Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx 
station calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get swamped.We 
got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO 
as standard, unlike a microphone, right Wayne?Soon as I stop chuckling I can 
drink my coffee.Gary -Original Message-From: "Jim Brown" 
<j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AMTo: 
"elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 
Digital Voice Mode - our future?On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote: Is 
bandwidth really our biggest problem?It is during contests. Or when you're 
trying to fit in between the many ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" 
nets. And don't try to make a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd 
has claimed, even though they are dead when you call.73, Jim K9YCElecraft 
mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp: 
http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htmPost: mailto:elecr...@mailman.qth.netThis list 
hosted by: http://www.qsl.netPlease help support this email list: 
http://www.qsl.net/donate.htmlMessage delivered to vk1zzgary@gmail.comElecraft 
mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp: 
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-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Phil Wheeler]

Yes. Key is mounted on the side of the hand grip 
and labeled PTT :-)


Phil W7OX

On 9/18/15 4:44 PM, Jerry Moore wrote:

What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key?
:p

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, S.N. 010324


On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aah Jim,

Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx
station calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get
swamped.

We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.

So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, right
Wayne?

Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.

Gary


-Original Message-
From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?

It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the many

ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to make

a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even
though they are dead when you call.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> FreeDV’s emission designator is 1K20J2E.

That is the *claimed* designator.

> “J3E” is “single sideband suppressed carrier”, “single channel
> containing analog information”, and “telephony”.

It is not J3E ... it is *J2E*.

"J" is single sideband suppressed carrier,
"2" is single channel containing quantized or digital information with
the use of a modulating sub-carrier
"E" is telephony.

FreeDV uses quantized/digital (digitally sampled and encoded) voice
which is modulated onto a series of sub-carriers which are in turn
modulated into a single sideband transmitter.

1K20J2E meets the requirements of 97.3c(5) as a "phone" mode *if* one
ignores the incidental *"text" data"*.  There is a valid question
whether the "ID/text" bits ("data frame" in the FreeDV specification)
represents a second "data" channel which would make the FreeDV emission
designator 1K20J7W (SSB, two or more channels containing quantized or
digital information, combination of telephony and data transmission)
which *does not* comply with 97.3c(5) because the third character is
no longer "E".

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 9/18/2015 7:10 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:

FreeDV’s emission designator is 1K20J2E.

The “1K20” prefix is the bandwidth. “J3E” is “single sideband suppressed 
carrier”, “single channel containing analog information”, and “telephony”. 
Totally legal.

http://freedv.org/tiki-index.php?page=FreeDV+Specification

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)


On Sep 18, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:


Yes, digital voice is classified as Phone as long as the emission
designator has: "A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; 1, 2, 3 or X as the second 
symbol; E as the third symbol." or "B or F as the first symbol; 7, 8 or 9 as the 
second symbol [and] E as the third
symbol."  - From §97.3c(5)

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Walter Underwood]

When CW is a digital voice mode, let me know. That is the topic of this 
discussion.

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Sep 18, 2015, at 6:03 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX <rmcg...@blomand.net> wrote:
> 
> I view that an acceptable digital mode for ham radio has been around since 
> day one!   It's called CW.And at one time, it was required of all hams to 
> learn to send and receive via the mode.
> 
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
> K3S s/n 10,163
> 
> On 9/18/2015 6:44 PM, Jerry Moore wrote:
>> What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key?
>> :p
>> 
>> Jerry Moore
>> AE4PB, S.N. 010324
>> 
>> 
>> On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Aah Jim,
>>> 
>>> Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx
>>> station calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get
>>> swamped.
>>> 
>>> We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.
>>> 
>>> So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, right
>>> Wayne?
>>> 
>>> Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.
>>> 
>>> Gary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
>>> Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
>>> To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
>>> 
>>> On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
>>>> Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?
>>> It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the many
>>> 
>>> ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to make
>>> 
>>> a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even
>>> though they are dead when you call.
>>> 
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>> __
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>> 
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to vk1zzg...@gmail.com
>>> __
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>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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>>> Message delivered to je...@carolinaheli.com
> 
> 
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Richard W. Solomon]

It means ..."send with your left foot"... 

HI HI

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of 
ae...@carolinaheli.com
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 6:22 PM
To: 'Phil Wheeler'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Ah..when I do that folks send QLF...what the heck is that ??? LOL.. :D Jer



Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324






-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil 
Wheeler
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:59 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Yes. Key is mounted on the side of the hand grip and labeled PTT :-)

Phil W7OX

On 9/18/15 4:44 PM, Jerry Moore wrote:
> What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key?
> :p
>
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, S.N. 010324
>
>
> On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Aah Jim,
>>
>> Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx 
>> station calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get 
>> swamped.
>>
>> We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.
>>
>> So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, 
>> right Wayne?
>>
>> Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
>> Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
>> To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
>>
>> On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
>>> Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?
>> It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the 
>> many
>>
>> ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to 
>> make
>>
>> a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even 
>> though they are dead when you call.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[ae4pb]

I was trying to be funny with the mic as a key comment. I'm almost on the air 
:) hopefully tomorrow if the mail made it this far :)

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Richard 
W. Solomon
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 9:44 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

It means ..."send with your left foot"... 

HI HI

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of 
ae...@carolinaheli.com
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 6:22 PM
To: 'Phil Wheeler'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Ah..when I do that folks send QLF...what the heck is that ??? LOL.. :D Jer



Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324






-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil 
Wheeler
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:59 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Yes. Key is mounted on the side of the hand grip and labeled PTT :-)

Phil W7OX

On 9/18/15 4:44 PM, Jerry Moore wrote:
> What is this microphone thing? Is that a new kind of key?
> :p
>
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, S.N. 010324
>
>
> On September 18, 2015 7:09:56 PM EDT, Gary <vk1zzg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Aah Jim,
>>
>> Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx 
>> station calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get 
>> swamped.
>>
>> We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.
>>
>> So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, 
>> right Wayne?
>>
>> Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
>> Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
>> To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
>>
>> On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
>>> Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?
>> It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the 
>> many
>>
>> ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to 
>> make
>>
>> a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even 
>> though they are dead when you call.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Al Lorona]

That's not so much of a bandwidth problem as a courtesy problem.

Al  W6LX
_


And don't try to make a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV
crowd has claimed, eventhough they are dead when you call.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Folks let's close this thread. Clearly people are not self moderating when 
posts exceed ten plus in a short period on a topic.

Please, take discussions off list when there are an excessive number of 
postings in a short period as this one. It is not necessary to wait for me to 
shut down a thread.

There also was an excessive amount of copied text on many of these posts, 
clogging the list for others. Please delete most of the copied prior postings, 
and the footers, when replying.

Also, it is not necessary to try to be the person with the last word..

73,

Eric
Moderator
elecraft.com
_..._

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Sverre Holm (LA3ZA)]

-
Sverre, LA3ZA

K2 #2198, K3 #3391,
LA3ZA Blog: http://la3za.blogspot.com,
LA3ZA Unofficial Guide to K2 modifications: 
http://la3za.blogspot.com/p/la3za-unofficial-guide-to-elecraft-k2.html
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Digital-Voice-Mode-our-future-tp7607903p7608026.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Gary]

Aah Jim,

Yes, "Emergency Nets" and SSTV, it is stunning how you here a dx station 
calling, you answer and by being so cheeky, you suddenly get swamped.

We got'em over here too, you folks are not alone.

So glad Elecraft supplied a VFO as standard, unlike a microphone, right Wayne?

Soon as I stop chuckling I can drink my coffee.

Gary 


-Original Message-
From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Sent: ‎19/‎09/‎2015 7:20 AM
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
> Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?

It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the many 
ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to make 
a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even 
though they are dead when you call.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?


It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the many 
ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to make 
a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even 
though they are dead when you call.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Fred Jensen]

Would HF digital voice be classified as Voice/Image because it started 
out as analog voice [and thus be confined to the Voice/Image sub-bands], 
or as RTTY/Data because the actual transmitted signal is digital [and 
thus confined to the RTTY/Data sub-bands]?  Different emission standards 
apply to each of the sub-bands.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 9/18/2015 2:19 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?


It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the many
ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to make
a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even
though they are dead when you call.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Walter Underwood]

FreeDV’s emission designator is 1K20J2E.

The “1K20” prefix is the bandwidth. “J3E” is “single sideband suppressed 
carrier”, “single channel containing analog information”, and “telephony”. 
Totally legal.

http://freedv.org/tiki-index.php?page=FreeDV+Specification

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Sep 18, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
> 
> 
> Yes, digital voice is classified as Phone as long as the emission
> designator has: "A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; 1, 2, 3 or X 
> as the second symbol; E as the third symbol." or "B or F as the first symbol; 
> 7, 8 or 9 as the second symbol [and] E as the third
> symbol."  - From §97.3c(5)
> 
> 73,
> 
>  ... Joe, W4TV
> 
> 
> On 9/18/2015 6:23 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> Would HF digital voice be classified as Voice/Image because it started
>> out as analog voice [and thus be confined to the Voice/Image sub-bands],
>> or as RTTY/Data because the actual transmitted signal is digital [and
>> thus confined to the RTTY/Data sub-bands]?  Different emission standards
>> apply to each of the sub-bands.
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Fred K6DGW
>> - Northern California Contest Club
>> - CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
>> - www.cqp.org
>> 
>> On 9/18/2015 2:19 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>>> On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
 Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?
>>> 
>>> It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the many
>>> ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to make
>>> a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even
>>> though they are dead when you call.
>>> 
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> 
>> __
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>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Yes, digital voice is classified as Phone as long as the emission
designator has: "A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; 1, 2, 3 
or X as the second symbol; E as the third symbol." or "B or F as the 
first symbol; 7, 8 or 9 as the second symbol [and] E as the third

symbol."  - From §97.3c(5)

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 9/18/2015 6:23 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

Would HF digital voice be classified as Voice/Image because it started
out as analog voice [and thus be confined to the Voice/Image sub-bands],
or as RTTY/Data because the actual transmitted signal is digital [and
thus confined to the RTTY/Data sub-bands]?  Different emission standards
apply to each of the sub-bands.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 9/18/2015 2:19 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Fri,9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?


It is during contests. Or when you're trying to fit in between the many
ragchewing nets masquerading as "emergency" nets. And don't try to make
a SSB QSO on the frequencies that the SSTV crowd has claimed, even
though they are dead when you call.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,9/18/2015 10:17 AM, Richard W. Solomon wrote:

Give me the Nice sound of a well engineered WB FM audio any day.


The problem is that, like AM, especially wide AM, it's a real spectrum 
hog. Which is why NBFM is used.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Stephen Shearer]

from some reading I have done recently, D-star is an open source from 
Japan ham community.


I agree, if it's not open, it's not ham radio.

We use FM on 10, 6, and 2 - modes included in the KX3/K3s, maybe the 
future should include d-star.


73, steve WB3LGC

On 17-Sep-15 9:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.
Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to
everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk
to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have
selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out
those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.

I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my
not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:

Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF
and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[ae4pb]

Let me re-phrase the question:

How hard would it be to implement a new mode on the K3S? 

I am having a blast learning all of the menus and how to do things.. I never
actually realized how many functions and settings there are (even after
reading the manuals). There's a lot that doesn't seem to be in the book
(most are intuitive) and some that takes a bit of digging. 
Jer

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Sverre
Holm (LA3ZA)
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 2:33 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

The country you may be referring to is Norway, where it has been decided to
switch off all the biggest broadcasters from FM (88-108 MHz) in 2017 as the
first country in the world, http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32380222

It has been a controversial decision, I for one have critized the audio
coding used for sacrificing audio quality in an Audio Engineering Society
presentation in 2007 "Audio Quality on the Air in DAB Digital Radio in
Norway" http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~sverre/papers/07_AES-DAB-Corrected.pdf

But I cannot quite see the relevance for VHF FM for hams.


ae4pb wrote
> I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how 
> hard it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure 
> what the standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of 
> FM permanently and switch to DV.
> 
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324





-
Sverre, LA3ZA

K2 #2198, K3 #3391,
LA3ZA Blog: http://la3za.blogspot.com,
LA3ZA Unofficial Guide to K2 modifications:
http://la3za.blogspot.com/p/la3za-unofficial-guide-to-elecraft-k2.html
--
View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Digital-Voice-Mode-our-future-tp7607
903p7607943.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[ae4pb]

My understanding is that we as a community "self-police". If we find an OM out 
of band or transmitting an out of spec signal we do the neighborly thing and 
help them fix it. I don't believe anyone (there are lids..other than them) 
intentionally transmits a poor signal. My view is that much of the younger 
generation are more into the operational than the "here's out it works and 
why". If you approach them with kindness and a helpful attitude you'll find 
that you can get it all done while making a new friend ;).

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 4:18 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Comparisons with single signal stations seems irrelevant.

Is anybody addressing the issue of QRM from other stations?   I suspect 
digital will fold -- especially when one is trying to detect one out of many or 
a station immersed in splatter from one or more stations.

The ability of the mind to pull out an individual station in the analog QRMed 
world would seem to be lost.  This is best illustrated by people being able to 
decode one voice of many at a party.

Here the switch to digital TV has been frustrating.  Stations which had 
previously been received acceptably are spotty.   The digital cliff 
effects are a killer.   The one station we really like to watch (PBS 55 
miles away, two edge diffraction reception) is greatly effected by day/night, 
the seasons and weather conditions. Admittedly some of degradation is due to 
the move from VHF to UHF. However I suspect that an analog transmission on the 
same frequencies would still be 
watchable.   Part of the problem at UHF is enhancement of multipath 
effects.  (Also DTV apparently is transmitting with 6db less power which is 
supposed to be made up by the digital decoding at the reception end. 
)  One sees this with a highly directional high gain antenna.   A 
station will drop out and if you bump the antenna a few degrees, it will return 
and then drop out.  It is a dance between the rotor to try to 
keep a station locked.If these multipath effects are so significant 
for digital, single signal one might expect the problem to exist in spades on 
HF.  Anybody who has looked at WWV carrier transmissions on a high resolution 
FFT display can see several distinct signals due to 
multipath shifted by up to 2 Hz at times.   The strongest of the bunch 
moves from FFT bin to bin.  As a side note, those HDTV stations who stayed on 
low VHF channels have had no end of problems.

Apples and oranges perhaps.

73 de Brian/K3KO
On 9/18/2015 2:16 AM, Gary wrote:
> Don,
>
> Absolutely spot on sir.
>
> Gary
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Don Wilhelm" <w3...@embarqmail.com>
> Sent: ‎18/‎09/‎2015 11:30 AM
> To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
>
> You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.
> Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
> That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk 
> to everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only 
> talk to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as 
> you have selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to 
> shut out those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.
>
> I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my 
> not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
>> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and 
>> UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>>
>>
> __
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> als...@nc.rr.com
>
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4419/10658

Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[brian]

Comparisons with single signal stations seems irrelevant.

Is anybody addressing the issue of QRM from other stations?   I suspect 
digital will fold -- especially when one is trying to detect one out of 
many or a station immersed in splatter from one or more stations.


The ability of the mind to pull out an individual station in the analog 
QRMed world would seem to be lost.  This is best illustrated by people 
being able to decode one voice of many at a party.


Here the switch to digital TV has been frustrating.  Stations which had 
previously been received acceptably are spotty.   The digital cliff 
effects are a killer.   The one station we really like to watch (PBS 55 
miles away, two edge diffraction reception) is greatly effected by 
day/night, the seasons and weather conditions. Admittedly some of 
degradation is due to the move from VHF to UHF. However I suspect that 
an analog transmission on the same frequencies would still be 
watchable.   Part of the problem at UHF is enhancement of multipath 
effects.  (Also DTV apparently is transmitting with 6db less power which 
is supposed to be made up by the digital decoding at the reception end. 
)  One sees this with a highly directional high gain antenna.   A 
station will drop out and if you bump the antenna a few degrees, it will 
return and then drop out.  It is a dance between the rotor to try to 
keep a station locked.If these multipath effects are so significant 
for digital, single signal one might expect the problem to exist in 
spades on HF.  Anybody who has looked at WWV carrier transmissions on a 
high resolution FFT display can see several distinct signals due to 
multipath shifted by up to 2 Hz at times.   The strongest of the bunch 
moves from FFT bin to bin.  As a side note, those HDTV stations who 
stayed on low VHF channels have had no end of problems.


Apples and oranges perhaps.

73 de Brian/K3KO
On 9/18/2015 2:16 AM, Gary wrote:

Don,

Absolutely spot on sir.

Gary

-Original Message-
From: "Don Wilhelm" <w3...@embarqmail.com>
Sent: ‎18/‎09/‎2015 11:30 AM
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.
Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to
everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk
to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have
selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out
those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.

I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my
not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:

Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF 
bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.



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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4419/10658 - Release Date: 09/17/15


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Robert Nobis]

Don,

To a certain extent, I agree with you. I also do not like proprietary 
technologies. However, if you look at the history of ham radio, many of the 
products and technologies we use today started out as “proprietary” 
technologies. Also, much of the history of ham radio is based on experimenting 
and trying new technologies and techniques. 

At least one of these digital technologies, DMR, is no longer really 
proprietary. There are at least 20 manufacturers of DMR radios, worldwide.  
True, DMR was not originally developed for use by hams, but it clearly is a 
product technology that many hams are now using on the VHF and UHF bands, even 
though I doubt we will ever see DMR on the HF bands. 

73,


Bob Nobis - N7RJN
n7...@nobis.net


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 18:28, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.  
> Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
> That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to 
> everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk to 
> those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have 
> selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out those 
> who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.
> 
> I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my not so 
> humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
>> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and 
>> UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>> 
>> 
> 
> __
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> 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> maybe the future should include d-star.

The baud rate of D-Star is too high for the current HF regulations.  In
addition, it is 6K00F7W ... F7W is only authorized above 51 MHz.

Finally, I'm not sure anyone would appreciate 6 kHz wide digital voice
signals in the already crowded HF bands.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 9/18/2015 7:49 AM, Stephen Shearer wrote:

from some reading I have done recently, D-star is an open source from
Japan ham community.

I agree, if it's not open, it's not ham radio.

We use FM on 10, 6, and 2 - modes included in the KX3/K3s, maybe the
future should include d-star.

73, steve WB3LGC

On 17-Sep-15 9:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.
Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to
everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk
to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have
selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out
those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.

I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my
not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:

Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF
and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Jerry Moore]

I'll never knowingly support a proprietary protocol in Amateur Radio.

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Greg 
Troxel
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 12:29 PM
To: Robert Nobis
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

(trying to be brief and return to being on-topic :-)

Robert Nobis <n7...@nobis.net> writes:

> To a certain extent, I agree with you. I also do not like proprietary 
> technologies. However, if you look at the history of ham radio, many 
> of the products and technologies we use today started out as 
> “proprietary” technologies. Also, much of the history of ham radio is 
> based on experimenting and trying new technologies and techniques.

There's a big difference between an implementation that has a patent and a 
protocol that has an essential patent such that you may not legally implement 
the protocol without a patent license.  The problem with all digital voice 
modes except FreeDV is the patented and undocumented AMBE codec.

> At least one of these digital technologies, DMR, is no longer really 
> proprietary. There are at least 20 manufacturers of DMR radios, 
> worldwide.  True, DMR was not originally developed for use by hams, 
> but it clearly is a product technology that many hams are now using on 
> the VHF and UHF bands, even though I doubt we will ever see DMR on the 
> HF bands.

DMR uses AMBE, so it's proprietary, because you (apparently; law is
hard) can't build and sell a DMR radio without a patent license.  An individual 
ham may not legally homebrew and use a DMR radio without a patent license.  One 
can't distribute Free Software that implements DMR on software radio.  There 
are many vendors, and they seem to mostly interoperate.  DMR is much like 
D-STAR, in that the container protocol is open or mostly open, but the codec is 
not.  This leads to big manufacturers paying patent licenses and individuals 
buying pre-programmed DSP chips to run the secret code that could have been run 
in their regular computer, if not for the patent (e.g., the "DV Dongle").

If Elecraft wanted to put D-STAR or DMR into the K3/KX3, besides the work, they 
would have to get a patent license for the codec.  That seems unlikely - and it 
would make me unhappy to be indirectly paying for something that I think 
doesn't belong in ham radio (well said, Don) and should not be permitted by the 
rules.

On the other hand, I suspect that implementing D-STAR with codec2 (VHF), or 
FreeDV, would just be implementation work, with no licenses and no extra 
hardware.  It doesn't seem like there's critical mass yet for that to make 
sense, though.

73 de n1dam
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[brian]

Robust maybe but hardly speedy further out.
Here are some bit rates from HORIZON space craft:
Jupiter Flyby - 35 kbps
Pluto - 2000 bps
http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/Mission/Spacecraft/Data-Collection.php

The bit rate drops to hundreds of bits/second further out.

73 de Brian/K3KO


On 9/18/2015 16:17 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

Digital tends to be either perfect armchair copy, or fairly unusable.

It's going to depend a whole lot on how it's encoded, the data rate, 
and how much error detection and correction is used.


Bump up the data rate, do some forward error correction and it's 
likely to be fairly robust.  Some of the methods used by NASA to 
encode signals from deep space probes are incredibly robust.


-- Lynn

On 9/18/2015 1:18 AM, brian wrote:
Is anybody addressing the issue of QRM from other stations?   I 
suspect digital will fold -- especially when one is trying to detect 
one out of many or a station immersed in splatter from one or more 
stations. 


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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4419/10661 - Release Date: 
09/18/15





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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Digital tends to be either perfect armchair copy, or fairly unusable.

It's going to depend a whole lot on how it's encoded, the data rate, and 
how much error detection and correction is used.


Bump up the data rate, do some forward error correction and it's likely 
to be fairly robust.  Some of the methods used by NASA to encode signals 
from deep space probes are incredibly robust.


-- Lynn

On 9/18/2015 1:18 AM, brian wrote:
Is anybody addressing the issue of QRM from other stations?   I 
suspect digital will fold -- especially when one is trying to detect 
one out of many or a station immersed in splatter from one or more 
stations. 


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Greg Troxel]

(trying to be brief and return to being on-topic :-)

Robert Nobis  writes:

> To a certain extent, I agree with you. I also do not like proprietary
> technologies. However, if you look at the history of ham radio, many
> of the products and technologies we use today started out as
> “proprietary” technologies. Also, much of the history of ham radio is
> based on experimenting and trying new technologies and techniques.

There's a big difference between an implementation that has a patent and
a protocol that has an essential patent such that you may not legally
implement the protocol without a patent license.  The problem with all
digital voice modes except FreeDV is the patented and undocumented AMBE
codec.

> At least one of these digital technologies, DMR, is no longer really
> proprietary. There are at least 20 manufacturers of DMR radios,
> worldwide.  True, DMR was not originally developed for use by hams,
> but it clearly is a product technology that many hams are now using on
> the VHF and UHF bands, even though I doubt we will ever see DMR on the
> HF bands.

DMR uses AMBE, so it's proprietary, because you (apparently; law is
hard) can't build and sell a DMR radio without a patent license.  An
individual ham may not legally homebrew and use a DMR radio without a
patent license.  One can't distribute Free Software that implements DMR
on software radio.  There are many vendors, and they seem to mostly
interoperate.  DMR is much like D-STAR, in that the container protocol
is open or mostly open, but the codec is not.  This leads to big
manufacturers paying patent licenses and individuals buying
pre-programmed DSP chips to run the secret code that could have been run
in their regular computer, if not for the patent (e.g., the "DV
Dongle").

If Elecraft wanted to put D-STAR or DMR into the K3/KX3, besides the
work, they would have to get a patent license for the codec.  That seems
unlikely - and it would make me unhappy to be indirectly paying for
something that I think doesn't belong in ham radio (well said, Don) and
should not be permitted by the rules.

On the other hand, I suspect that implementing D-STAR with codec2 (VHF),
or FreeDV, would just be implementation work, with no licenses and no
extra hardware.  It doesn't seem like there's critical mass yet for that
to make sense, though.

73 de n1dam
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Walter Underwood]

The D-Star protocol is published and open, but all the radios use a 
proprietary, licensed voice codec (AMBE). Also, Icom has registered the 
trademark “D-STAR”.

It would be possible to run D-Star with an open source codec (like Codec2), but 
it probably would not interoperate with other D-Star radios. Codec2 was 
developed by Dave Rowe, VK5DGR.

Some people have argued that the proprietary AMBE codec is equivalent to 
encryption, and not legal for US amateur radio us. I could buy that.

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Sep 18, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Stephen Shearer  wrote:
> 
> from some reading I have done recently, D-star is an open source from Japan 
> ham community.
> 
> I agree, if it's not open, it's not ham radio.
> 
> We use FM on 10, 6, and 2 - modes included in the KX3/K3s, maybe the future 
> should include d-star.
> 
> 73, steve WB3LGC
> 
> On 17-Sep-15 9:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.
>> Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
>> That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to
>> everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk
>> to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have
>> selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out
>> those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.
>> 
>> I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my
>> not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>> 
>> On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
>>> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF
>>> and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Richard W. Solomon]

I fail to see why folks are getting excited over DMR. To me, the audio sounds 
Terrible. Perhaps it's just the excitement of being on the bleeding edge.

Similar problems happened with FM when it was narrow-banded. Give me the 
Nice sound of a well engineered WB FM audio any day.

Also, who remembers the fiasco with the LA Fire Departments trial with 
DMR some years ago. 

Digital voice has NO place in a well engineered product such as Elecraft 
Produces.

Just one mans opinion.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Walter 
Underwood
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 9:02 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

The D-Star protocol is published and open, but all the radios use a 
proprietary, licensed voice codec (AMBE). Also, Icom has registered the 
trademark “D-STAR”.

It would be possible to run D-Star with an open source codec (like Codec2), but 
it probably would not interoperate with other D-Star radios. Codec2 was 
developed by Dave Rowe, VK5DGR.

Some people have argued that the proprietary AMBE codec is equivalent to 
encryption, and not legal for US amateur radio us. I could buy that.

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Sep 18, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Stephen Shearer <sm.shearer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> from some reading I have done recently, D-star is an open source from Japan 
> ham community.
> 
> I agree, if it's not open, it's not ham radio.
> 
> We use FM on 10, 6, and 2 - modes included in the KX3/K3s, maybe the future 
> should include d-star.
> 
> 73, steve WB3LGC
> 
> On 17-Sep-15 9:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.
>> Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
>> That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk 
>> to everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only 
>> talk to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as 
>> you have selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to 
>> shut out those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.
>> 
>> I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my 
>> not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>> 
>> On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
>>> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the 
>>> VHF and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Robert Nobis]

I suspect nearly all commercially manufactured equipment for the ham radio 
market has some patents associated with the design and technology.


Bob Nobis - N7RJN
n7...@nobis.net


> On Sep 18, 2015, at 09:29, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
> (trying to be brief and return to being on-topic :-)
> 
> Robert Nobis  writes:
> 
>> To a certain extent, I agree with you. I also do not like proprietary
>> technologies. However, if you look at the history of ham radio, many
>> of the products and technologies we use today started out as
>> “proprietary” technologies. Also, much of the history of ham radio is
>> based on experimenting and trying new technologies and techniques.
> 
> There's a big difference between an implementation that has a patent and
> a protocol that has an essential patent such that you may not legally
> implement the protocol without a patent license.  The problem with all
> digital voice modes except FreeDV is the patented and undocumented AMBE
> codec.
> 
>> At least one of these digital technologies, DMR, is no longer really
>> proprietary. There are at least 20 manufacturers of DMR radios,
>> worldwide.  True, DMR was not originally developed for use by hams,
>> but it clearly is a product technology that many hams are now using on
>> the VHF and UHF bands, even though I doubt we will ever see DMR on the
>> HF bands.
> 
> DMR uses AMBE, so it's proprietary, because you (apparently; law is
> hard) can't build and sell a DMR radio without a patent license.  An
> individual ham may not legally homebrew and use a DMR radio without a
> patent license.  One can't distribute Free Software that implements DMR
> on software radio.  There are many vendors, and they seem to mostly
> interoperate.  DMR is much like D-STAR, in that the container protocol
> is open or mostly open, but the codec is not.  This leads to big
> manufacturers paying patent licenses and individuals buying
> pre-programmed DSP chips to run the secret code that could have been run
> in their regular computer, if not for the patent (e.g., the "DV
> Dongle").
> 
> If Elecraft wanted to put D-STAR or DMR into the K3/KX3, besides the
> work, they would have to get a patent license for the codec.  That seems
> unlikely - and it would make me unhappy to be indirectly paying for
> something that I think doesn't belong in ham radio (well said, Don) and
> should not be permitted by the rules.
> 
> On the other hand, I suspect that implementing D-STAR with codec2 (VHF),
> or FreeDV, would just be implementation work, with no licenses and no
> extra hardware.  It doesn't seem like there's critical mass yet for that
> to make sense, though.
> 
> 73 de n1dam
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Given that most QSOs are less than interplanetary distances, and given 
that 8 kilobits will probably do for voice, I think we're okay.


73 -- Lynn

On 9/18/2015 9:57 AM, brian wrote:

Robust maybe but hardly speedy further out.
Here are some bit rates from HORIZON space craft:
Jupiter Flyby - 35 kbps
Pluto - 2000 bps
http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/Mission/Spacecraft/Data-Collection.php

The bit rate drops to hundreds of bits/second further out.

73 de Brian/K3KO


On 9/18/2015 16:17 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

Digital tends to be either perfect armchair copy, or fairly unusable.

It's going to depend a whole lot on how it's encoded, the data rate, 
and how much error detection and correction is used.


Bump up the data rate, do some forward error correction and it's 
likely to be fairly robust.  Some of the methods used by NASA to 
encode signals from deep space probes are incredibly robust.


-- Lynn

On 9/18/2015 1:18 AM, brian wrote:
Is anybody addressing the issue of QRM from other stations?   I 
suspect digital will fold -- especially when one is trying to detect 
one out of many or a station immersed in splatter from one or more 
stations. 


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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4419/10661 - Release Date: 
09/18/15





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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Al Lorona]

I'm sorry, I don't begrudge anybody wanting to experiment with digital voice, 
but every time I listen to audio clips of DV I am appalled by the sound 
quality. I have to prefer SSB almost every single time. 


The examples on that site of DV with a 20 dB SNR are pretty awful. Thy soun 
like litte slivrs of ound drop ut of thee sndstream and it drves e crzy.

I wasn't even aware that there was a third letter in the VK5's suffix until I 
heard the original analog audio.

Why are we so obsessed with occupied bandwidth? I just tuned the entire 20 
meter phone band and heard a total of seven stations in that 200 kHz segment. 
The same goes for 40 at night. Is bandwidth really our biggest problem?




Al W6LX
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

On 9/18/2015 10:24 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

I'm sorry, I don't begrudge anybody wanting to experiment with digital voice, 
but every time I listen to audio clips of DV I am appalled by the sound 
quality. I have to prefer SSB almost every single time.
SSB has been around for decades, and we're pretty good at it, but there 
was a time when people said "I don't begrudge anyone experimenting with 
SSB, but every time I listen to it, I'm appalled, I'll take AM any day."


I'm not arguing for DV just because it's digital.  We should get excited 
about DV when it becomes "better" in some way.  Just like the adoption 
of SSB.


In the meantime, we can experiment.

73 -- Lynn
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Robert Nobis]

Jerry,

Not sure that is a valid assumption when it comes to ham radio. 

73,



Bob Nobis - N7RJN
n7...@nobis.net


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:00, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:
> 
> I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
> it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
> standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
> and switch to DV. 
> 
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Bill Frantz]

On 9/17/15 at 11:48 AM, n7...@nobis.net (Robert Nobis) wrote:
See: 

I don't think this mode very popular yet, but it is attractive, taking less 
bandwidth than SSB.

73 Bill AE6JV

> Jerry,
> 
> Not sure that is a valid assumption when it comes to ham radio. 
> 
> 73,
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Nobis - N7RJN
> n7...@nobis.net
> 
> 
> > On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:00, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:
> > 
> > I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
> > it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
> > standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
> > and switch to DV. 
> > 
> > Jerry Moore
> > AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324

-
Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos, CA 95032

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[Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[ae4pb]

I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
and switch to DV. 

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Don Wilhelm]

You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.  
Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to 
everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk 
to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have 
selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out 
those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.


I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my 
not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:

Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF 
bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Matthew Cook]

If you take a closer look at the spectral bandwidths of the current crop of
digital VHF/UHF voice systems and compare them to 10k1 NBFM I think you'll
be surprised.  Unless govt agencies start racking and stacking digtal LMR
systems without guard bands then there is no clear advantage.  The
technical requirements of each receiver goes through the roof with 10k1
systems as it.  However there is a strong desire from government agencies
to move toward encrypted communications, which is very easy with digital
LMR; basically you get it for free.  This does not relate to the amateur
service.

In terms of Digital voice replacing SSB that has a very long long way to
go.  In truth SSB is very difficult to beat in terms of spectral
efficiency.  SSB puts just enough power into the right spectrum for near
loss less communication.  When you try to stuff the equivalent power into a
low bit rate digital signal, the energy per bit is quite high, meaning
you've got to lower your bit rate substantially until the two powers (SSB
and DV) are the same.  At this low bit rate (<600bps) there is no avoiding
the donald duck or robotic voices at this point.  That pesky information
theory gets in the way.  Lots of great progress has been made in this
regard (i.e. Codec2), however it will be a while before the necessary
200-600MHz hard float DSP will be required in a K3S.  Besides I'm sure a
suitable retrofit DSP module can be squeezed in there somewhere when the
time comes.

73

Matthew
VK5ZM

On 18 September 2015 at 10:33, Robert Nobis  wrote:

> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and
> UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>
>
> Bob Nobis - N7RJN
> n7...@nobis.net
>
>
> > On Sep 17, 2015, at 17:49, Richard Fjeld  wrote:
> >
> > I was in to freeDV a year or two ago, and it has a long way to go.
> Still, it did work.
> >
> > I'm told the bandwidth has increased since then from 1200 hertz to 1600
> hertz at present, which will be an improvement.
> > At 1200 hertz, voices sounded robotic in nature.  it lost sync often
> which may, or may not, have been due to the compression.
> >
> > I haven't heard of the FCC's having ruled on it's mode and/or where if
> permitted.  I haven't been keeping up with it either.
> >
> > Dick, n0ce
> >
> >
> > On 9/17/2015 1:00 PM, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:
> >> I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how
> hard
> >> it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
> >> standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM
> permanently
> >> and switch to DV.
> >>
> >> Jerry Moore
> >> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324
> >>
> >>
> >
> > __
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Gary]

Don,

Absolutely spot on sir.

Gary 

-Original Message-
From: "Don Wilhelm" <w3...@embarqmail.com>
Sent: ‎18/‎09/‎2015 11:30 AM
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.  
Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to 
everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk 
to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have 
selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out 
those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.

I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my 
not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF 
> bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>
>

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Richard Fjeld]

I was in to freeDV a year or two ago, and it has a long way to go. 
Still, it did work.


I'm told the bandwidth has increased since then from 1200 hertz to 1600 
hertz at present, which will be an improvement.
At 1200 hertz, voices sounded robotic in nature.  it lost sync often 
which may, or may not, have been due to the compression.


I haven't heard of the FCC's having ruled on it's mode and/or where if 
permitted.  I haven't been keeping up with it either.


Dick, n0ce


On 9/17/2015 1:00 PM, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:

I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
and switch to DV.

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Robert Nobis]

Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF 
bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.


Bob Nobis - N7RJN
n7...@nobis.net


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 17:49, Richard Fjeld  wrote:
> 
> I was in to freeDV a year or two ago, and it has a long way to go. Still, it 
> did work.
> 
> I'm told the bandwidth has increased since then from 1200 hertz to 1600 hertz 
> at present, which will be an improvement.
> At 1200 hertz, voices sounded robotic in nature.  it lost sync often which 
> may, or may not, have been due to the compression.
> 
> I haven't heard of the FCC's having ruled on it's mode and/or where if 
> permitted.  I haven't been keeping up with it either.
> 
> Dick, n0ce
> 
> 
> On 9/17/2015 1:00 PM, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:
>> I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
>> it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
>> standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
>> and switch to DV.
>> 
>> Jerry Moore
>> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Richard Fjeld]

FreeDV does not require a repeater.


On 9/17/2015 8:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:

Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF 
bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.


Bob Nobis - N7RJN
n7...@nobis.net



On Sep 17, 2015, at 17:49, Richard Fjeld  wrote:

I was in to freeDV a year or two ago, and it has a long way to go. Still, it 
did work.

I'm told the bandwidth has increased since then from 1200 hertz to 1600 hertz 
at present, which will be an improvement.
At 1200 hertz, voices sounded robotic in nature.  it lost sync often which may, 
or may not, have been due to the compression.

I haven't heard of the FCC's having ruled on it's mode and/or where if 
permitted.  I haven't been keeping up with it either.

Dick, n0ce


On 9/17/2015 1:00 PM, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:

I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
and switch to DV.

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Sandy]

I could not agree more Don!   There isn't much advantage for amateur 
radio to digital voice operations.   Just another "kink in the wire"!
No advantage at all.  All the digital voice stuff I have heard sounds 
terrible at times.  Motorola's system (proprietary no doubt!) can sound

absolutely awful when signal conditions are bad.

73, to all,

Sandy W5TVW

On 9/17/2015 8:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other. 
Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk 
to everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only 
talk to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as 
you have selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to 
shut out those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.


I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my 
not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF 
and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.





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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Don Wilhelm]

There are advantages to digital voice, but for Amateur Band use, I don't 
think we are "there yet".  When we see an 'open source' digital voice 
mode that is published and can be implemented by any amateur, then I may 
change my position, but that is not the situation today.  I do not 
believe that proprietary modes of any sort should be permitted on the 
ham bands.


One characteristic of digital streaming 'anything' is that if the signal 
'loses sync', things go to pot, and you have to wait until it syncs up 
again.  With fading on an analog signal, you can usually fill in the 
gaps, but with digital, it is all or nothing.  When it is "all", it is 
great, but the gaps are annoying - plus the quality is determined by the 
bit rate in the encoding/decoding algorithms.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/17/2015 11:16 PM, Sandy wrote:
I could not agree more Don!   There isn't much advantage for amateur 
radio to digital voice operations.   Just another "kink in the wire"!
No advantage at all.  All the digital voice stuff I have heard sounds 
terrible at times.  Motorola's system (proprietary no doubt!) can sound

absolutely awful when signal conditions are bad.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Walter Underwood]

FreeDV is open source. You can use the FreeDV API 
(http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3469 ) or 
get a box that will implement it and can be updated with new protocols 
(http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?page_id=3902 
). Or you can download the FreeDV 
app. Or download the source, either one from here: 
http://freedv.org/tiki-index.php 

Dave Rowe (VK5DGR)  is actively improving both the HF and VHF variants of 
FreeDV, with very interesting articles on his blog. He’s working on a low 
bitrate version for nasty HF signal paths (FreeDV 700), and is working on a VHF 
digital voice mode with two levels of fidelity always transmitted. When you get 
more signal, you get more fidelity (http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3931 
).

Here are some samples of the current 700 bitrate codec: 
http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4291 

And some A/B comparison QSOs with SSB and FreeDV: 
http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4527 

Dave is doing some very exciting stuff, I’m impressed. And it’s all free.

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Sep 17, 2015, at 8:41 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> There are advantages to digital voice, but for Amateur Band use, I don't 
> think we are "there yet".  When we see an 'open source' digital voice mode 
> that is published and can be implemented by any amateur, then I may change my 
> position, but that is not the situation today.  I do not believe that 
> proprietary modes of any sort should be permitted on the ham bands.
> 
> One characteristic of digital streaming 'anything' is that if the signal 
> 'loses sync', things go to pot, and you have to wait until it syncs up again. 
>  With fading on an analog signal, you can usually fill in the gaps, but with 
> digital, it is all or nothing.  When it is "all", it is great, but the gaps 
> are annoying - plus the quality is determined by the bit rate in the 
> encoding/decoding algorithms.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> On 9/17/2015 11:16 PM, Sandy wrote:
>> I could not agree more Don!   There isn't much advantage for amateur radio 
>> to digital voice operations.   Just another "kink in the wire"!
>> No advantage at all.  All the digital voice stuff I have heard sounds 
>> terrible at times.  Motorola's system (proprietary no doubt!) can sound
>> absolutely awful when signal conditions are bad.
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Richard Fjeld]

Yes he is. Oh, to be that capable.


On 9/17/2015 11:53 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:

FreeDV is open source. You can use the FreeDV API (http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3469 
) or get a box that will implement it and can be 
updated with new protocols (http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?page_id=3902 
). Or you can download the FreeDV app. Or 
download the source, either one from here: http://freedv.org/tiki-index.php 


Dave Rowe (VK5DGR)  is actively improving both the HF and VHF variants of FreeDV, 
with very interesting articles on his blog. He’s working on a low bitrate version for 
nasty HF signal paths (FreeDV 700), and is working on a VHF digital voice mode with 
two levels of fidelity always transmitted. When you get more signal, you get more 
fidelity (http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3931 
).

Here are some samples of the current 700 bitrate codec: 
http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4291 

And some A/B comparison QSOs with SSB and FreeDV: http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4527 


Dave is doing some very exciting stuff, I’m impressed. And it’s all free.

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

[Matthew Cook]

Just to make sure we carry some Elecraft content you might like to look at
the following URL's

http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4584
http://www.areg.org.au/?p=1719

And the code for both the Codec2 and FreeDV is freely available here;

https://github.com/freedv

73

Matthew
VK5ZM


On 18 September 2015 at 14:23, Walter Underwood 
wrote:

> FreeDV is open source. You can use the FreeDV API (
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3469 )
> or get a box that will implement it and can be updated with new protocols (
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?page_id=3902 <
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?page_id=3902>). Or you can download the
> FreeDV app. Or download the source, either one from here:
> http://freedv.org/tiki-index.php 
>
> Dave Rowe (VK5DGR)  is actively improving both the HF and VHF variants of
> FreeDV, with very interesting articles on his blog. He’s working on a low
> bitrate version for nasty HF signal paths (FreeDV 700), and is working on a
> VHF digital voice mode with two levels of fidelity always transmitted. When
> you get more signal, you get more fidelity (
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3931  >).
>
> Here are some samples of the current 700 bitrate codec:
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4291 
>
> And some A/B comparison QSOs with SSB and FreeDV:
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4527 
>
> Dave is doing some very exciting stuff, I’m impressed. And it’s all free.
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>
> > On Sep 17, 2015, at 8:41 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> >
> > There are advantages to digital voice, but for Amateur Band use, I don't
> think we are "there yet".  When we see an 'open source' digital voice mode
> that is published and can be implemented by any amateur, then I may change
> my position, but that is not the situation today.  I do not believe that
> proprietary modes of any sort should be permitted on the ham bands.
> >
> > One characteristic of digital streaming 'anything' is that if the signal
> 'loses sync', things go to pot, and you have to wait until it syncs up
> again.  With fading on an analog signal, you can usually fill in the gaps,
> but with digital, it is all or nothing.  When it is "all", it is great, but
> the gaps are annoying - plus the quality is determined by the bit rate in
> the encoding/decoding algorithms.
> >
> > 73,
> > Don W3FPR
> >
> > On 9/17/2015 11:16 PM, Sandy wrote:
> >> I could not agree more Don!   There isn't much advantage for amateur
> radio to digital voice operations.   Just another "kink in the wire"!
> >> No advantage at all.  All the digital voice stuff I have heard sounds
> terrible at times.  Motorola's system (proprietary no doubt!) can sound
> >> absolutely awful when signal conditions are bad.
> >>
> >
> > __
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