Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

After the big hurricane goes through and takes out all the communications lines 
and cell phone towers for a 100,000 people then they get a better standing for 
the Ham operators at least.

-Dave

From: Sundstrom, Mike [mailto:mike.sundst...@garmin.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 11:10 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Yes well, I’m a compliance engineer and a Ham radio operator also! That goes 
far in my public standings I can tell you!

Thanks,

Michael Sundstrom
Garmin Compliance Engineer
2-2606
(913) 440-1540
KB5UKT

It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
Henry David Thoreau

From: Michael Derby [mailto:micha...@acbcert.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 7:48 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Ha ha ha.

You know you’re in a boring job when you pretend to be a drug dealer to enhance 
your social acceptability.   ☺



Michael Derby
Senior Regulatory Engineer
Director
ACB Europe

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: 04 February 2015 13:38
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

I know what you mean. I just tell people I’m a drug dealer. That they 
understand. ☺

The Other Brian

From: Michael Derby [mailto:micha...@acbcert.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 4:45 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

It would be disappointing if emissions from household items were ever fully 
eliminated because it’s the only way I can explain to people what I do for a 
living.

“What do you do…..”

“Well, you know that crackling noise you get from the radio when someone is 
using a hair dryer…..”

If they fix that, I’ll have to start talking about SAR levels and then I won’t 
get invited to dinner any more.


Michael.


Michael Derby
Senior Regulatory Engineer
Director
ACB Europe

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: 03 February 2015 15:22
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Same is true of other power tools, drills, vacuum cleaners, etc.  I believe 
‎the thinking is these are only intermittent use.


 - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
From: Bill Stumpf
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:14 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply To: Bill Stumpf
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws


Based on inquiries I've made to the FCC  IC regarding digitally controlled 
power tools, the FCC currently exempts these devices from Part 15 technical 
regulations.  Industry Canada compliance testing should be done to ICES-001 
requirements.


Bill

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 47 Telecommunication Chapter 1 
Subchapter A Part 15
15.103 Exempted devices.
(c) A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical 
test equipment.

Sounds like it would be FCC part 15 exempt providing the user stops operating 
the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the 
device is causing harmful interference.

Don’t know about Canada yet but they usually follow the US.

-Dave


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my 
ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for 
cutting steel rods, and such.

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless AC 
motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models have 
Inverters (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a break.

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing on 
their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the 
installation instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about 
fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws and failed CISPR 11 Class A 
Conducted Emissions by 50db (if was a prototype saw not on the market).  How do 
these people sleep at night?

So here is my question. Does the US and Canada require Emissions testing on 
Industrial Saws?  Same question for Europe. I assume EN 55011 Class A is 
mandatory in Europe on such a devices.

Please confirm (sanity check).

Thanks,
The Other Brian



LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received 

Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[dward]

Nah – they just had a bigger lobby when the FCC rules were put in place:)

So, that is why no one invites me to dinner

 

​

Dennis Ward

This communication and its attachements contain information from PCTEST 
Engineering Laboratory, Inc., and I sintended for the exclusive use of the 
recipient(s) named above.  It may contain information that is confidential 
and/or legally privileged.  Any unauthorized use that may compromise that 
confidentiality via distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  Please notify 
the sender immediately if you receive this communication in error, and delete 
it from your computer system.  Usage of PCTEST email addresses for non-business 
related activities is strictly prohibited.  No warranty is made that the e-mail 
or attachments(s) are free from computer virus or other defect.  Thank you.

 

From: Michael Derby [mailto:micha...@acbcert.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2015 1:45 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

It would be disappointing if emissions from household items were ever fully 
eliminated because it’s the only way I can explain to people what I do for a 
living.

 

“What do you do…..”

 

“Well, you know that crackling noise you get from the radio when someone is 
using a hair dryer…..”

 

If they fix that, I’ll have to start talking about SAR levels and then I won’t 
get invited to dinner any more.

 

 

Michael.

 

 

Michael Derby

Senior Regulatory Engineer

Director

ACB Europe

 

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 03 February 2015 15:22
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

Same is true of other power tools, drills, vacuum cleaners, etc.  I believe 
‎the thinking is these are only intermittent use.  

 

 

 - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01   


From: Bill Stumpf

Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:14 AM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 

Reply To: Bill Stumpf

Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

Based on inquiries I've made to the FCC  IC regarding digitally controlled 
power tools, the FCC currently exempts these devices from Part 15 technical 
regulations.  Industry Canada compliance testing should be done to ICES-001 
requirements.

 

 

Bill

 

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 47 Telecommunication Chapter 1 
Subchapter A Part 15

15.103 Exempted devices. 

(c) A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical 
test equipment.

 

Sounds like it would be FCC part 15 exempt providing the user stops operating 
the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the 
device is causing harmful interference.

 

Don’t know about Canada yet but they usually follow the US.

 

-Dave

 

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my 
ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for 
cutting steel rods, and such.  

 

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless AC 
motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models have 
Inverters (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a break.

 

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing on 
their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the 
installation instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about 
fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws and failed CISPR 11 Class A 
Conducted Emissions by 50db (if was a prototype saw not on the market).  How do 
these people sleep at night?

 

So here is my question. Does the US and Canada require Emissions testing on 
Industrial Saws?  Same question for Europe. I assume EN 55011 Class A is 
mandatory in Europe on such a devices. 

 

Please confirm (sanity check). 

 

Thanks,

The Other Brian

 

 

  _  


LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.org mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[Luisa Haig]

Shaking my head!  LOL!
Lu

From: Sundstrom, Mike [mailto:mike.sundst...@garmin.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 10:10 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Yes well, I’m a compliance engineer and a Ham radio operator also! That goes 
far in my public standings I can tell you!

Thanks,

Michael Sundstrom
Garmin Compliance Engineer
2-2606
(913) 440-1540
KB5UKT

It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
Henry David Thoreau

From: Michael Derby [mailto:micha...@acbcert.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 7:48 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Ha ha ha.

You know you’re in a boring job when you pretend to be a drug dealer to enhance 
your social acceptability.   ☺



Michael Derby
Senior Regulatory Engineer
Director
ACB Europe

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: 04 February 2015 13:38
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

I know what you mean. I just tell people I’m a drug dealer. That they 
understand. ☺

The Other Brian

From: Michael Derby [mailto:micha...@acbcert.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 4:45 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

It would be disappointing if emissions from household items were ever fully 
eliminated because it’s the only way I can explain to people what I do for a 
living.

“What do you do…..”

“Well, you know that crackling noise you get from the radio when someone is 
using a hair dryer…..”

If they fix that, I’ll have to start talking about SAR levels and then I won’t 
get invited to dinner any more.


Michael.


Michael Derby
Senior Regulatory Engineer
Director
ACB Europe

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: 03 February 2015 15:22
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Same is true of other power tools, drills, vacuum cleaners, etc.  I believe 
‎the thinking is these are only intermittent use.


 - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
From: Bill Stumpf
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:14 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply To: Bill Stumpf
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws


Based on inquiries I've made to the FCC  IC regarding digitally controlled 
power tools, the FCC currently exempts these devices from Part 15 technical 
regulations.  Industry Canada compliance testing should be done to ICES-001 
requirements.


Bill

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 47 Telecommunication Chapter 1 
Subchapter A Part 15
15.103 Exempted devices.
(c) A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical 
test equipment.

Sounds like it would be FCC part 15 exempt providing the user stops operating 
the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the 
device is causing harmful interference.

Don’t know about Canada yet but they usually follow the US.

-Dave


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my 
ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for 
cutting steel rods, and such.

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless AC 
motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models have 
Inverters (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a break.

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing on 
their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the 
installation instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about 
fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws and failed CISPR 11 Class A 
Conducted Emissions by 50db (if was a prototype saw not on the market).  How do 
these people sleep at night?

So here is my question. Does the US and Canada require Emissions testing on 
Industrial Saws?  Same question for Europe. I assume EN 55011 Class A is 
mandatory in Europe on such a devices.

Please confirm (sanity check).

Thanks,
The Other Brian



LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-

Re: [PSES] OSM decision

[Brian Oconnell]

Mr P - Correct about the change of scoped voltage. UL62109-1 scopes 1500Vdc 
(not listed by ANSI or SCC yet), and NEC article 690 will be also updated.

FWIW, took customer's box back to the ranch and did several fault conditions 
and some surge stuff(C62.41 and 4-5). What a mess. They never listen. What a 
maroon.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 7:28 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] FW: [PSES] OSM decision

Rich, et al,

I wouldn't be so quick to claim that dc systems will not have
transient voltages on them. 

I recently worked on a certification project that included solar
panels feeding power back into the line to make the overall project
'greener'.  

In commercial systems solar panels are ganged together to get the
overall voltage up to 600Vdc with 10's of Amps per ganged collexion.  10 or
more of these are combined to drive a SMPS inverter which outputs AC fed
into the power system.  Atmospherics can disrupt either the dc or the AC
side so protection of the SMPS inverter on each side should be considered.
More nightmares for the designers and field folks who need a clean design
that is robust and long-lived giving continued protection.  

Some new work is being done with SPDs.  See IEEE Xactions on EMC
v56n6 Dec 2014: HE  Dy, SPD Protection Distance to Household Appliances
Connected in Parallel.  There might be other info that could be pulled from
the bibliography for this paper.  

Finally, for your fun and enjoyment, the US NEC is being updated to
allow the Low Voltage DC limits to go to 1000V soon and 1500Vdc later to
accommodate larger solar panel installations.  

:) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 

-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 1:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] OSM decision

What is the purpose of the MOV in this situation?


What is the MOV Joule dissipation rating (can it dissipate the expected
overvoltage)?

Is the MOV protected by a fuse?

(An equipment d.c. bus is not likely to have high-voltage transients.)



-Original Message-
From: Brian Oconnell
[mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 11:56 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] OSM decision

Was reviewing customer's construction where a 475V MOV was across the
(floated) 420Vdc bus. Said this was bad idea, and they referred me to OSM/EE
decision sheet 09/01 for EN60950-1:2006; which says ok to do whatever you
want with a VDR on primary side that is not connected to mains. Can think of
more than one SFC that would result in this combination of circuit
configuration and component ratings making a mess.

Any record of TC108 having affirmed this?

Thanks,
Brian

-

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Re: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe

[Kunde, Brian]

“As Dave correctly noted, most European countries would disqualify a typical 
NEMA configuration because there are exposed live plug blades during the 
insertion/removal process. There are a few manufacturers of NEMA twist-lock 
devices that include a sleeve around the plug blades that eliminates the touch 
issue.”

So if I use a version of the NEMA L15-20 which is recessed or has a sleeve so 
you cannot come in contact with hot pins, would their use be acceptable in 
Europe and other countries?

Thanks,
The Other Brian


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 5:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe

NEMA WD-6 configurations are generally accepted in North America, Central 
America and the northern portions of South America. Columbia, Ecuador and 
Venezuela use North American power systems. Some WD-6 configurations can be 
used in Japan if they have the proper approvals. JIS C 8303 includes L5-15, 
L6-15, L5-20, L6-20 and L15-20 equivalents.

Most manufacturers with NEMA locking plugs on their equipment use IEC 60309 
connectors for the 230 V / 50 Hz world.

As Dave correctly noted, most European countries would disqualify a typical 
NEMA configuration because there are exposed live plug blades during the 
insertion/removal process. There are a few manufacturers of NEMA twist-lock 
devices that include a sleeve around the plug blades that eliminates the touch 
issue.

Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.commailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 2:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe

According to EN 60204-1 at least, no.  They want IEC.

4.2 Selection of equipment
4.2.1 General
Electrical components and devices shall:
– conform to relevant IEC standards where such exist;

There is also a concern with the NEMA plugs not being touch safe, the blades 
can be hot when partially plugged in, especially the 5-15P.

-Dave

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 4:54 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe


Can I use a NEMA Inlet Connector (twist lock type) on the back of a product for 
a detachable power cord (provided) and market it in Europe?

Can I use a NEMA Outlet Receptacle (twist lock type) on the back of a product 
to power a unique accessory (power cable provided) and market it in Europe?

I would still use a European Style Plug on the main power cord.

Is this allowed or can’t NEMA plugs/receptacles be used in Europe? How about 
other counties outside of North America?

Thanks,
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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List rules: 

Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[Sundstrom, Mike]

Yes well, I’m a compliance engineer and a Ham radio operator also! That goes 
far in my public standings I can tell you!

Thanks,

Michael Sundstrom
Garmin Compliance Engineer
2-2606
(913) 440-1540
KB5UKT

It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
Henry David Thoreau

From: Michael Derby [mailto:micha...@acbcert.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 7:48 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Ha ha ha.

You know you’re in a boring job when you pretend to be a drug dealer to enhance 
your social acceptability.   ☺



Michael Derby
Senior Regulatory Engineer
Director
ACB Europe

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: 04 February 2015 13:38
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

I know what you mean. I just tell people I’m a drug dealer. That they 
understand. ☺

The Other Brian

From: Michael Derby [mailto:micha...@acbcert.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 4:45 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

It would be disappointing if emissions from household items were ever fully 
eliminated because it’s the only way I can explain to people what I do for a 
living.

“What do you do…..”

“Well, you know that crackling noise you get from the radio when someone is 
using a hair dryer…..”

If they fix that, I’ll have to start talking about SAR levels and then I won’t 
get invited to dinner any more.


Michael.


Michael Derby
Senior Regulatory Engineer
Director
ACB Europe

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: 03 February 2015 15:22
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Same is true of other power tools, drills, vacuum cleaners, etc.  I believe 
‎the thinking is these are only intermittent use.


 - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
From: Bill Stumpf
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:14 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply To: Bill Stumpf
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws


Based on inquiries I've made to the FCC  IC regarding digitally controlled 
power tools, the FCC currently exempts these devices from Part 15 technical 
regulations.  Industry Canada compliance testing should be done to ICES-001 
requirements.


Bill

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 47 Telecommunication Chapter 1 
Subchapter A Part 15
15.103 Exempted devices.
(c) A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical 
test equipment.

Sounds like it would be FCC part 15 exempt providing the user stops operating 
the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the 
device is causing harmful interference.

Don’t know about Canada yet but they usually follow the US.

-Dave


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my 
ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for 
cutting steel rods, and such.

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless AC 
motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models have 
Inverters (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a break.

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing on 
their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the 
installation instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about 
fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws and failed CISPR 11 Class A 
Conducted Emissions by 50db (if was a prototype saw not on the market).  How do 
these people sleep at night?

So here is my question. Does the US and Canada require Emissions testing on 
Industrial Saws?  Same question for Europe. I assume EN 55011 Class A is 
mandatory in Europe on such a devices.

Please confirm (sanity check).

Thanks,
The Other Brian



LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable 

Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[Michael Derby]

It would be disappointing if emissions from household items were ever fully 
eliminated because it’s the only way I can explain to people what I do for a 
living.

 

“What do you do…..”

 

“Well, you know that crackling noise you get from the radio when someone is 
using a hair dryer…..”

 

If they fix that, I’ll have to start talking about SAR levels and then I won’t 
get invited to dinner any more.

 

 

Michael.

 

 

Michael Derby

Senior Regulatory Engineer

Director

ACB Europe

 

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 03 February 2015 15:22
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

Same is true of other power tools, drills, vacuum cleaners, etc.  I believe 
‎the thinking is these are only intermittent use.  





 

 - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01   


From: Bill Stumpf

Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:14 AM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Reply To: Bill Stumpf

Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

Based on inquiries I've made to the FCC  IC regarding digitally controlled 
power tools, the FCC currently exempts these devices from Part 15 technical 
regulations.  Industry Canada compliance testing should be done to ICES-001 
requirements.

 

 

Bill

 

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 47 Telecommunication Chapter 1 
Subchapter A Part 15

15.103 Exempted devices. 

(c) A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical 
test equipment.

 

Sounds like it would be FCC part 15 exempt providing the user stops operating 
the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the 
device is causing harmful interference.

 

Don’t know about Canada yet but they usually follow the US.

 

-Dave

 

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my 
ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for 
cutting steel rods, and such.  

 

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless AC 
motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models have 
Inverters (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a break.

 

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing on 
their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the 
installation instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about 
fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws and failed CISPR 11 Class A 
Conducted Emissions by 50db (if was a prototype saw not on the market).  How do 
these people sleep at night?

 

So here is my question. Does the US and Canada require Emissions testing on 
Industrial Saws?  Same question for Europe. I assume EN 55011 Class A is 
mandatory in Europe on such a devices. 

 

Please confirm (sanity check). 

 

Thanks,

The Other Brian

 

 

  _  


LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 


-


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Instructions: 

Re: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe

[Ted Eckert]

Hello Brian,

In theory, a NEMA L15-20 with a sleeve could be compliant with European 
requirements. However, theory and reality are going to collide with unpleasant 
results. I tried this once in the past with a different North American 
connector. In the end, I had to get the connector tested and certified to the 
appropriate European standards to get it accepted. (Don’t ask me which 
standard; it was a long time ago and I have tried to overcome the horrible 
memories of the process by forgetting about it.) The L15-20 is rated 250 V 
maximum phase-to-phase, so the European regulators will immediately object 
because they only know about 400 V phase-to-phase systems. The plug 
configuration doesn’t match what they know. There will be additional hurdles. 
Even if you get through the project, (and I do mean “if” and not “when”) you 
will be locked into one part from one supplier.

It would likely be a lot of work, time and money to get approval if possible.

Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.commailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2015 8:27 AM
To: Ted Eckert; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe


“As Dave correctly noted, most European countries would disqualify a typical 
NEMA configuration because there are exposed live plug blades during the 
insertion/removal process. There are a few manufacturers of NEMA twist-lock 
devices that include a sleeve around the plug blades that eliminates the touch 
issue.”

So if I use a version of the NEMA L15-20 which is recessed or has a sleeve so 
you cannot come in contact with hot pins, would their use be acceptable in 
Europe and other countries?

Thanks,
The Other Brian


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 5:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe

NEMA WD-6 configurations are generally accepted in North America, Central 
America and the northern portions of South America. Columbia, Ecuador and 
Venezuela use North American power systems. Some WD-6 configurations can be 
used in Japan if they have the proper approvals. JIS C 8303 includes L5-15, 
L6-15, L5-20, L6-20 and L15-20 equivalents.

Most manufacturers with NEMA locking plugs on their equipment use IEC 60309 
connectors for the 230 V / 50 Hz world.

As Dave correctly noted, most European countries would disqualify a typical 
NEMA configuration because there are exposed live plug blades during the 
insertion/removal process. There are a few manufacturers of NEMA twist-lock 
devices that include a sleeve around the plug blades that eliminates the touch 
issue.

Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.commailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 2:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe

According to EN 60204-1 at least, no.  They want IEC.

4.2 Selection of equipment
4.2.1 General
Electrical components and devices shall:
– conform to relevant IEC standards where such exist;

There is also a concern with the NEMA plugs not being touch safe, the blades 
can be hot when partially plugged in, especially the 5-15P.

-Dave

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 4:54 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe


Can I use a NEMA Inlet Connector (twist lock type) on the back of a product for 
a detachable power cord (provided) and market it in Europe?

Can I use a NEMA Outlet Receptacle (twist lock type) on the back of a product 
to power a unique accessory (power cable provided) and market it in Europe?

I would still use a European Style Plug on the main power cord.

Is this allowed or can’t NEMA plugs/receptacles be used in Europe? How about 
other counties outside of North America?

Thanks,
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


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[PSES] OSHA NRTL lists

[Brian Oconnell]

Can the Recognized Testing Standards lists on the OSHA (NRTL) web site be 
considered current ?

If not, what is the canonical and authoritative listing for each recognized 
NRTL?

Thanks,
Brian 

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Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
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Re: [PSES] OSHA NRTL lists

[Kevin Robinson]

Hi Brian,

I am currently serving as the Acting Director of OSHA's NRTL Program, and
the list available on the OSHA website
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/list_standards.html is current.  There
is a current proposal to add and remove several standards from this list
http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=OSHA-2013-0012-0011 but until
we are able to publish a Final Federal Register notice (currently
undergoing review) the list is current.

Just a note about the list of appropriate test standards, the process of
adding new standards to the list is largely driven by requests from NRTLs
manufacturers and trade groups.  Any group or individual can ask OSHA to
consider adding a new standard to the list (easiest way is to email
nrtlprog...@dol.gov) and we will take the request under consideration
during our periodic review of standards.

If you have any additional questions, feel free to contact me at:

robinson.ke...@dol.gov or 202-693-1911

Kevin Robinson

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com
wrote:

 Can the Recognized Testing Standards lists on the OSHA (NRTL) web site be
 considered current ?

 If not, what is the canonical and authoritative listing for each
 recognized NRTL?

 Thanks,
 Brian

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Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[Pete Perkins]

Interesting discussion. 

 

The lack of prior experience with equipment such as this
industrial cut-off saw seems to come from folks who do not regularly work
with machinery and the Machinery Directive.  

 

Having done some of this type of certification work it's
clear that the machinery manufacturers want to avoid EMC testing at all
costs.  They either look at taking advantage of an allowance for large,
permanently installed machinery which allows for no EMC testing under
certain specified installation conditions or just claim compliance based
upon the VFD manufacturers data sheet which usually claims EU compliance
when the appropriate, stated filters are installed.  

 

In this case, I would expect the component saw mfgr to have
done the needed EMC testing and specify appropriate filtering to be used to
show compliance.  Maybe this is what you are helping with in this case, it's
not clear.  

 

Oh yes, I remember one situation what filters were
stipulated by the VFD/motor manufacturer and asked if they were installed.
The response was we installed the input filters (the cheaper ones) but not
the output filters (more expensive).  A quick calculation showed that it was
still cheaper to install the 3 dozen or so output filters than hire the EMC
testers to come on-site and provide a compliance report to cover this
aspect.  Some chagrin was shown, they had not expected to spend U$ 10k or so
in either case.  

 

So, I'm not surprised at the problem; getting to the proper
result will be the demonstration of Brian's magical professional ability
(smile a lot while you put it to them).  

 

:) br, Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety Engineer

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201 fone/fax

p.perk...@ieee.org

 

_ _ _ _ _

 

From: Kunde, Brian [ mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com
mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To:  mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my
ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for
cutting steel rods, and such.  

 

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless
AC motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models
have Inverters (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a
break.

 

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing
on their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the
installation instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about
fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws and failed CISPR 11 Class
A Conducted Emissions by 50db (if was a prototype saw not on the market).
How do these people sleep at night?

 

So here is my question. Does the US and Canada require Emissions testing on
Industrial Saws?  Same question for Europe. I assume EN 55011 Class A is
mandatory in Europe on such a devices. 

 

Please confirm (sanity check).

 

Thanks,

The Other Brian

 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
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Re: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe

[Kunde, Brian]

A, yes. The line to line voltage is higher. I didn’t think of that. We 
would also have a 400-480V version, but of course the 250 volt NEMA connectors 
would not work, not to mention the hassle of trying to get them certified.

I always recommend the IEC60309 connectors but everyone complains about how 
expensive they are and that they are large.  I guess for an international 
product you really don’t have any choice.

Thanks for the sanity check.

The Other Brian


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 1:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe

Hello Brian,

In theory, a NEMA L15-20 with a sleeve could be compliant with European 
requirements. However, theory and reality are going to collide with unpleasant 
results. I tried this once in the past with a different North American 
connector. In the end, I had to get the connector tested and certified to the 
appropriate European standards to get it accepted. (Don’t ask me which 
standard; it was a long time ago and I have tried to overcome the horrible 
memories of the process by forgetting about it.) The L15-20 is rated 250 V 
maximum phase-to-phase, so the European regulators will immediately object 
because they only know about 400 V phase-to-phase systems. The plug 
configuration doesn’t match what they know. There will be additional hurdles. 
Even if you get through the project, (and I do mean “if” and not “when”) you 
will be locked into one part from one supplier.

It would likely be a lot of work, time and money to get approval if possible.

Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.commailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2015 8:27 AM
To: Ted Eckert; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe


“As Dave correctly noted, most European countries would disqualify a typical 
NEMA configuration because there are exposed live plug blades during the 
insertion/removal process. There are a few manufacturers of NEMA twist-lock 
devices that include a sleeve around the plug blades that eliminates the touch 
issue.”

So if I use a version of the NEMA L15-20 which is recessed or has a sleeve so 
you cannot come in contact with hot pins, would their use be acceptable in 
Europe and other countries?

Thanks,
The Other Brian


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 5:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe

NEMA WD-6 configurations are generally accepted in North America, Central 
America and the northern portions of South America. Columbia, Ecuador and 
Venezuela use North American power systems. Some WD-6 configurations can be 
used in Japan if they have the proper approvals. JIS C 8303 includes L5-15, 
L6-15, L5-20, L6-20 and L15-20 equivalents.

Most manufacturers with NEMA locking plugs on their equipment use IEC 60309 
connectors for the 230 V / 50 Hz world.

As Dave correctly noted, most European countries would disqualify a typical 
NEMA configuration because there are exposed live plug blades during the 
insertion/removal process. There are a few manufacturers of NEMA twist-lock 
devices that include a sleeve around the plug blades that eliminates the touch 
issue.

Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.commailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 2:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe

According to EN 60204-1 at least, no.  They want IEC.

4.2 Selection of equipment
4.2.1 General
Electrical components and devices shall:
– conform to relevant IEC standards where such exist;

There is also a concern with the NEMA plugs not being touch safe, the blades 
can be hot when partially plugged in, especially the 5-15P.

-Dave

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 4:54 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using NEMA Receptacles in Europe


Can I use a NEMA Inlet Connector (twist lock type) on the back of a product for 
a detachable power cord (provided) and market it in Europe?

Can I use a NEMA Outlet Receptacle (twist lock type) on the back of a product 
to power a unique accessory (power cable provided) and market it in Europe?

I would still use a European Style Plug on the main power cord.

Is this allowed or can’t NEMA plugs/receptacles be used in Europe? How about 
other counties outside of 

Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

And it's even more fun when the other guy that doesn't do it is an EU company 
being compared to US companies importing into the EU that have to do it.

-Dave

From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 3:38 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

And the dreaded - the other guy doesn't do it why are we Heavy sigh.
By the way not too long ago I saw the pragmatic answer to that.
Company A built a product. For whatever reason Company B challenged the EMC. 
They tested at a lab and sure enough failure. I don't know how badly it failed 
but it failed.
Last seen an EMC engineer and the corporate legal beagle from company B were 
back at the lab with more than one of the device that failed, and were 
documenting the results for the pending lawsuit.

That was within the last few months so one shouldn't assume it doesn't happen 
anymore.

mac


mac

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 12:13 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Pete,

I think you have a good understanding of the situation. You are right; they 
avoid doing EMC testing because of the cost, but we don't do business that way. 
When we offer to perform EMC testing on their products for free, they say NO 
because they would rather be ignorant and ship products not knowing if they 
pass or fail than to have them tested for free and have to fix them.

We asked if we tested their products and found a failure, would they take 
corrective measures to fix it. Their answer was, Probably Not, because in the 
Industrial  market no one cares if you meet EMC requirements or not.

Hmm. Hearing statements like this makes life tough on an EMC guy who works for 
a company who always wants to do things right. They look to me for answers or 
explanations and I have none.

Thanks,
The Other Brian

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:peperkin...@cs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 2:21 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Cc: Kunde, Brian
Subject: RE: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Interesting discussion.

The lack of prior experience with equipment such as this 
industrial cut-off saw seems to come from folks who do not regularly work with 
machinery and the Machinery Directive.

Having done some of this type of certification work it's clear 
that the machinery manufacturers want to avoid EMC testing at all costs.  They 
either look at taking advantage of an allowance for large, permanently 
installed machinery which allows for no EMC testing under certain specified 
installation conditions or just claim compliance based upon the VFD 
manufacturers data sheet which usually claims EU compliance when the 
appropriate, stated filters are installed.

In this case, I would expect the component saw mfgr to have 
done the needed EMC testing and specify appropriate filtering to be used to 
show compliance.  Maybe this is what you are helping with in this case, it's 
not clear.

Oh yes, I remember one situation what filters were stipulated 
by the VFD/motor manufacturer and asked if they were installed.  The response 
was we installed the input filters (the cheaper ones) but not the output 
filters (more expensive).  A quick calculation showed that it was still cheaper 
to install the 3 dozen or so output filters than hire the EMC testers to come 
on-site and provide a compliance report to cover this aspect.  Some chagrin was 
shown, they had not expected to spend U$ 10k or so in either case.

So, I'm not surprised at the problem; getting to the proper 
result will be the demonstration of Brian's magical professional ability (smile 
a lot while you put it to them).

:) br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.orgmailto:p.perk...@ieee.org

_ _ _ _ _

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my 
ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for 
cutting steel rods, and such.

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless AC 
motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models have 
Inverters (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a break.

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing on 
their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the 
installation instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about 
fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws 

Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[Kunde, Brian]

Pete,

I think you have a good understanding of the situation. You are right; they 
avoid doing EMC testing because of the cost, but we don't do business that way. 
When we offer to perform EMC testing on their products for free, they say NO 
because they would rather be ignorant and ship products not knowing if they 
pass or fail than to have them tested for free and have to fix them.

We asked if we tested their products and found a failure, would they take 
corrective measures to fix it. Their answer was, Probably Not, because in the 
Industrial  market no one cares if you meet EMC requirements or not.

Hmm. Hearing statements like this makes life tough on an EMC guy who works for 
a company who always wants to do things right. They look to me for answers or 
explanations and I have none.

Thanks,
The Other Brian

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:peperkin...@cs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 2:21 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Cc: Kunde, Brian
Subject: RE: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Interesting discussion.

The lack of prior experience with equipment such as this 
industrial cut-off saw seems to come from folks who do not regularly work with 
machinery and the Machinery Directive.

Having done some of this type of certification work it's clear 
that the machinery manufacturers want to avoid EMC testing at all costs.  They 
either look at taking advantage of an allowance for large, permanently 
installed machinery which allows for no EMC testing under certain specified 
installation conditions or just claim compliance based upon the VFD 
manufacturers data sheet which usually claims EU compliance when the 
appropriate, stated filters are installed.

In this case, I would expect the component saw mfgr to have 
done the needed EMC testing and specify appropriate filtering to be used to 
show compliance.  Maybe this is what you are helping with in this case, it's 
not clear.

Oh yes, I remember one situation what filters were stipulated 
by the VFD/motor manufacturer and asked if they were installed.  The response 
was we installed the input filters (the cheaper ones) but not the output 
filters (more expensive).  A quick calculation showed that it was still cheaper 
to install the 3 dozen or so output filters than hire the EMC testers to come 
on-site and provide a compliance report to cover this aspect.  Some chagrin was 
shown, they had not expected to spend U$ 10k or so in either case.

So, I'm not surprised at the problem; getting to the proper 
result will be the demonstration of Brian's magical professional ability (smile 
a lot while you put it to them).

:) br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.orgmailto:p.perk...@ieee.org

_ _ _ _ _

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my 
ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for 
cutting steel rods, and such.

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless AC 
motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models have 
Inverters (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a break.

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing on 
their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the 
installation instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about 
fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws and failed CISPR 11 Class A 
Conducted Emissions by 50db (if was a prototype saw not on the market).  How do 
these people sleep at night?

So here is my question. Does the US and Canada require Emissions testing on 
Industrial Saws?  Same question for Europe. I assume EN 55011 Class A is 
mandatory in Europe on such a devices.

Please confirm (sanity check).

Thanks,
The Other Brian


LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[Gary McInturff]

And the dreaded - the other guy doesn't do it why are we Heavy sigh.
By the way not too long ago I saw the pragmatic answer to that.
Company A built a product. For whatever reason Company B challenged the EMC. 
They tested at a lab and sure enough failure. I don't know how badly it failed 
but it failed.
Last seen an EMC engineer and the corporate legal beagle from company B were 
back at the lab with more than one of the device that failed, and were 
documenting the results for the pending lawsuit.

That was within the last few months so one shouldn't assume it doesn't happen 
anymore.

mac


mac

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 12:13 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Pete,

I think you have a good understanding of the situation. You are right; they 
avoid doing EMC testing because of the cost, but we don't do business that way. 
When we offer to perform EMC testing on their products for free, they say NO 
because they would rather be ignorant and ship products not knowing if they 
pass or fail than to have them tested for free and have to fix them.

We asked if we tested their products and found a failure, would they take 
corrective measures to fix it. Their answer was, Probably Not, because in the 
Industrial  market no one cares if you meet EMC requirements or not.

Hmm. Hearing statements like this makes life tough on an EMC guy who works for 
a company who always wants to do things right. They look to me for answers or 
explanations and I have none.

Thanks,
The Other Brian

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:peperkin...@cs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 2:21 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Cc: Kunde, Brian
Subject: RE: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Interesting discussion.

The lack of prior experience with equipment such as this 
industrial cut-off saw seems to come from folks who do not regularly work with 
machinery and the Machinery Directive.

Having done some of this type of certification work it's clear 
that the machinery manufacturers want to avoid EMC testing at all costs.  They 
either look at taking advantage of an allowance for large, permanently 
installed machinery which allows for no EMC testing under certain specified 
installation conditions or just claim compliance based upon the VFD 
manufacturers data sheet which usually claims EU compliance when the 
appropriate, stated filters are installed.

In this case, I would expect the component saw mfgr to have 
done the needed EMC testing and specify appropriate filtering to be used to 
show compliance.  Maybe this is what you are helping with in this case, it's 
not clear.

Oh yes, I remember one situation what filters were stipulated 
by the VFD/motor manufacturer and asked if they were installed.  The response 
was we installed the input filters (the cheaper ones) but not the output 
filters (more expensive).  A quick calculation showed that it was still cheaper 
to install the 3 dozen or so output filters than hire the EMC testers to come 
on-site and provide a compliance report to cover this aspect.  Some chagrin was 
shown, they had not expected to spend U$ 10k or so in either case.

So, I'm not surprised at the problem; getting to the proper 
result will be the demonstration of Brian's magical professional ability (smile 
a lot while you put it to them).

:) br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.orgmailto:p.perk...@ieee.org

_ _ _ _ _

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my 
ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for 
cutting steel rods, and such.

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless AC 
motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models have 
Inverters (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a break.

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing on 
their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the 
installation instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about 
fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws and failed CISPR 11 Class A 
Conducted Emissions by 50db (if was a prototype saw not on the market).  How do 
these people sleep at night?

So here is my question. Does the US and Canada require Emissions testing on 
Industrial Saws?  Same question for Europe. I assume EN 55011 Class A is 
mandatory in Europe on such a devices.

Please confirm 

Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[Michael Derby]

Ha ha ha.

 

You know you’re in a boring job when you pretend to be a drug dealer to enhance 
your social acceptability.   J

 

 

 

Michael Derby

Senior Regulatory Engineer

Director

ACB Europe

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: 04 February 2015 13:38
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

I know what you mean. I just tell people I’m a drug dealer. That they 
understand. J

 

The Other Brian

 

From: Michael Derby [mailto:micha...@acbcert.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 4:45 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

It would be disappointing if emissions from household items were ever fully 
eliminated because it’s the only way I can explain to people what I do for a 
living.

 

“What do you do…..”

 

“Well, you know that crackling noise you get from the radio when someone is 
using a hair dryer…..”

 

If they fix that, I’ll have to start talking about SAR levels and then I won’t 
get invited to dinner any more.

 

 

Michael.

 

 

Michael Derby

Senior Regulatory Engineer

Director

ACB Europe

 

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 03 February 2015 15:22
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

Same is true of other power tools, drills, vacuum cleaners, etc.  I believe 
‎the thinking is these are only intermittent use.  

 

 

 - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01   


From: Bill Stumpf

Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:14 AM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Reply To: Bill Stumpf

Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

Based on inquiries I've made to the FCC  IC regarding digitally controlled 
power tools, the FCC currently exempts these devices from Part 15 technical 
regulations.  Industry Canada compliance testing should be done to ICES-001 
requirements.

 

 

Bill

 

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 47 Telecommunication Chapter 1 
Subchapter A Part 15

15.103 Exempted devices. 

(c) A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical 
test equipment.

 

Sounds like it would be FCC part 15 exempt providing the user stops operating 
the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the 
device is causing harmful interference.

 

Don’t know about Canada yet but they usually follow the US.

 

-Dave

 

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

 

I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my 
ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for 
cutting steel rods, and such.  

 

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless AC 
motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models have 
Inverters (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a break.

 

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing on 
their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the 
installation instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about 
fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws and failed CISPR 11 Class A 
Conducted Emissions by 50db (if was a prototype saw not on the market).  How do 
these people sleep at night?

 

So here is my question. Does the US and Canada require Emissions testing on 
Industrial Saws?  Same question for Europe. I assume EN 55011 Class A is 
mandatory in Europe on such a devices. 

 

Please confirm (sanity check). 

 

Thanks,

The Other Brian

 

 

  _  


LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For 

Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[Kunde, Brian]

I know what you mean. I just tell people I’m a drug dealer. That they 
understand. ☺

The Other Brian

From: Michael Derby [mailto:micha...@acbcert.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 4:45 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

It would be disappointing if emissions from household items were ever fully 
eliminated because it’s the only way I can explain to people what I do for a 
living.

“What do you do…..”

“Well, you know that crackling noise you get from the radio when someone is 
using a hair dryer…..”

If they fix that, I’ll have to start talking about SAR levels and then I won’t 
get invited to dinner any more.


Michael.


Michael Derby
Senior Regulatory Engineer
Director
ACB Europe

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: 03 February 2015 15:22
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Same is true of other power tools, drills, vacuum cleaners, etc.  I believe 
‎the thinking is these are only intermittent use.


 - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
From: Bill Stumpf
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:14 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply To: Bill Stumpf
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws


Based on inquiries I've made to the FCC  IC regarding digitally controlled 
power tools, the FCC currently exempts these devices from Part 15 technical 
regulations.  Industry Canada compliance testing should be done to ICES-001 
requirements.


Bill

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 47 Telecommunication Chapter 1 
Subchapter A Part 15
15.103 Exempted devices.
(c) A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical 
test equipment.

Sounds like it would be FCC part 15 exempt providing the user stops operating 
the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the 
device is causing harmful interference.

Don’t know about Canada yet but they usually follow the US.

-Dave


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my 
ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for 
cutting steel rods, and such.

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless AC 
motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models have 
Inverters (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a break.

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing on 
their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the 
installation instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about 
fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws and failed CISPR 11 Class A 
Conducted Emissions by 50db (if was a prototype saw not on the market).  How do 
these people sleep at night?

So here is my question. Does the US and Canada require Emissions testing on 
Industrial Saws?  Same question for Europe. I assume EN 55011 Class A is 
mandatory in Europe on such a devices.

Please confirm (sanity check).

Thanks,
The Other Brian



LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.orgmailto:sdoug...@ieee.org
Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 

Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws

[Cortland Richmond]

Well, not if we read Part 15::§15.5 General conditions of operation.(b) Operation of an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator is subject to the conditions that no harmful interference is caused and that interference must be accepted that may be caused by the operation of an authorized radio station, by another intentional or unintentional radiator, by industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) equipment, or by an incidental radiator.I suspect that what these and electric razors, vacuum cleaners, well pumps and Dremel tools, among things, are exempted from is testing, certification and verification before they may be marketed. Someday, I'll donate a bunch of particularly noisy stuff to the auto or wood craft shop at an Air Force base -- and a plasma TV to the controller's lounge 
at the tower. I encourage this charitable activity!Cortlandka5sOriginal Message-
From: Bill Stumpf 
Sent: Feb 3, 2015 10:13 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws














Based on inquiries I've made to the FCC  IC regarding digitally controlled power tools, the FCC currently exempts these devices from Part 15 technical regulations. Industry
 Canada compliance testing should be done to ICES-001 requirements.


Bill



From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]

Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws



Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 47 Telecommunication Chapter 1 Subchapter A Part 15
15.103 Exempted devices. 
(c) A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical test equipment.

Sounds like it would be FCC part 15 exempt providing the user stops operating the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the device
 is causing harmful interference.

Don’t know about Canada yet but they usually follow the US.

-Dave




From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]

Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC on Industrial Cut-Off Saws




I am not at all familiar with this category of products so please excuse my ignorance which is an industrial cut-off saw with a 5hp electric motor for cutting
 steel rods, and such. 

Most of these basic model saws have no high frequency devices and brushless AC motors so they do not generate EMI. However, the more expensive models have Inverters
 (Frequency Drives) to slow start/stop the motor and act as a break.

We evaluated a saw from a company who says they do not require EMC testing on their saws even when they use the Inverter, as long as they follow the installation
 instructions from the inverter manufacturer (yea, I just about fell out of my chair). We tested one of these saws and failed CISPR 11 Class A Conducted Emissions by 50db (if was a prototype saw not on the market). How do these people sleep at night?

So here is my question. Does the US and Canada require Emissions testing on Industrial Saws? Same question for Europe. I assume EN 55011 Class A is mandatory
 in Europe on such a devices. 

Please confirm (sanity check).


Thanks,
The Other Brian






LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and
 notify us of the error. Thank you. 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald dhe...@gmail.com 
-

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