[PSES] Spread Spectrum clocking and adverse WIFI effects
Hello all, Spread spectrum clocking has a *wonderful* effect on radiated emissions especially DDR generated noise. My question is: Given the high degree of integration in today's products: Does anyone have concrete experiences of degraded WiFi performance as a result of using SSC? Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications (w) 303-706-5467 (c) 303-204-2974 (t) 3032042...@vtext.com (e) charles.gra...@echostar.com (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Using existing WiFi FCC data for new FCCID - Yes or No?
Hello, Given: A product that has a front panel and a main board. The front panel (along with USB and other electronics) also includes the WiFI circuitry and antenna connectors. The main board also integrates (on board) a RF4CE radio for remote functionality. Scenario: As the result of a cost reduction effort, the main board has been redesigned and a new cheaper RF4CE radio circuit included - however there are *NO* changes to the front panel. Of course the RF4CE radio will be tested to ensure compliance to FCC regulations, however as the WiFi radio has not changed - there is a desire NOT to repeat the extensive WiFi testing that has already been previously done. A query was made to a TCB as to whether the previous WiFi data could be used in addition with the new RF4CE data to apply for a new FCCID. Question: Does anyone know why this approach would not be acceptable?? Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications (w) 303-706-5467 (c) 303-204-2974 (t) 3032042...@vtext.com (e) charles.gra...@echostar.com (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Spread Spectrum clocking and adverse WIFI effects
Just some basic observations. In order for a dithered clock to solve a regulatory problem, the frequency shift must be greater than the measurement bandwidth. In order for the dithered clock to solve an EMI problem, the frequency shift must be larger than the potential victim¹s bandwidth. In an ideal world, the measurement and victim BW are the same. This is realized, for instance, in the FM BCB, but not in the television bands. So the immediate question is what is a WiFi channel BW, relative to the 1 MHz (?) BW of the CISPR measurement above 1 GHz. The WiFi BW is considerably larger than 1 MHz in order to support download speeds these days, so it is quite possible for a dithered clock to push the frequency outside the measurement BW but still remain in the WiFi channel, where it can cause mischief. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Grasso, Charles charles.gra...@echostar.com Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 14:39:15 + To: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org Conversation: Spread Spectrum clocking and adverse WIFI effects Subject: Spread Spectrum clocking and adverse WIFI effects Hello all, Spread spectrum clocking has a *wonderful* effect on radiated emissions especially DDR generated noise. My question is: Given the high degree of integration in today¹s products: Does anyone have concrete experiences of degraded WiFi performance as a result of using SSC? Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications (w) 303-706-5467 (c) 303-204-2974 (t) 3032042...@vtext.com (e) charles.gra...@echostar.com (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] 3rd party labs due-diligence
PSES network, I am looking at do due-diligence assessment of 3rd party labs that we use for EMC, Wireless, and product safety testing. There are the standard lab certifications: IEC17025, A4LA, NVLAP, IECEE CB Scheme, etc. I get many 3rd party reports from labs, that have the proper certification and reference standards in them. What I am looking for is, what beyond these certifications do you look for in a lab to consider it acceptable? Check list, on site/facility reviews? Do you do the due-diligence assessment or is it paper exercise. At what point do you feel sufficient due diligence has been done (acceptable risk tolerance level)? Any comments or perspective are welcome. Thank you. W. Richard Gartman, MS, CSP Product Stewardship Manager Texas Instruments, Education Technology Office: 214-567-7927Email: rgart...@ti.com www.education.ti.com/us/productstewardship www.ti.com/ccr - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] 3rd party labs due-diligence
The 2012 PSES Symposium had a session on the assessment of CABs and labs. But the presenter was influenced by space aliens, so information could have been compromised. Do not think that any of my PPT files made it to the disc, but may be online. Brian -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gartman, W. Richard Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 11:43 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: 3rd party labs due-diligence PSES network, I am looking at do due-diligence assessment of 3rd party labs that we use for EMC, Wireless, and product safety testing. There are the standard lab certifications: IEC17025, A4LA, NVLAP, IECEE CB Scheme, etc. I get many 3rd party reports from labs, that have the proper certification and reference standards in them. What I am looking for is, what beyond these certifications do you look for in a lab to consider it acceptable? Check list, on site/facility reviews? Do you do the due-diligence assessment or is it paper exercise. At what point do you feel sufficient due diligence has been done (acceptable risk tolerance level)? Any comments or perspective are welcome. Thank you. W. Richard Gartman, MS, CSP Product Stewardship Manager Texas Instruments, Education Technology Office: 214-567-7927Email: rgart...@ti.com www.education.ti.com/us/productstewardship www.ti.com/ccr - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard?
Truth from the lab. When January 12, 2014 rolls around any product you place on the market in the EU to which EN 61000-6-4 applies will have to have been shown to meet the standard with amendment A1:2011. Now, you need to know what the amendment changed. I don't know your product, nor do I know the amendment (the generic standards don't apply to our products), so you'll have to look and see what changed. Sometimes the changes have no impact on your product, so a simple update to the test report is all that is needed. Sometimes life isn't so simple. Ghery S. Pettit From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Crane, Lauren Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 1:05 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Retest because of supersded standard? Dear Experts, A test lab is suggesting that because EN61000-6-4:2007 will be superseded in 2014, all conforming products must be retested to the new standard, even if no changes have occurred in the product. Is this a fair claim? Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard?
Thanks for the helpful replies so far. I should clarify in this case the regulatory context is Korea – ENs are essentially equivalent to KNs. Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor From: msherma...@comcast.net [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 3:18 PM To: Crane, Lauren Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard? Lauren -- A similar thread is currently running on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/groups/CISPR-22-24-compliance-update-2278131.S.269600494?view=gid=2278131type=memberitem=269600494trk=eml-anet_dig-b_nd-pst_ttle-cn Here is my comment on that thread, but I look forward to the experienced feedback from this EMC-PSTC group of experts: This is a tough one. 1. The essential requirements of ANNEX I of 2004/108/EC are stated with a reference to state of the art: Equipment shall be so designed and manufactured, having regard to the state of the art, as to ensure that:... 2. Harmonized standards are regularly updated, presumably at least in part to reflect the state of the art. 3. If you are choosing to demonstrate conformance with the essential requirements by demonstrating conformance with the applicable harmonized standards, it seems to me that you have an obligation to periodically review whether changes to the harmonized standards constitute changes to the state of the art as applied to your products... Mike From: Lauren Crane lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.commailto:lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 3:05:28 PM Subject: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard? Dear Experts, A test lab is suggesting that because EN61000-6-4:2007 will be superseded in 2014, all conforming products must be retested to the new standard, even if no changes have occurred in the product. Is this a fair claim? Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT;emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT;emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.netGT; Mike Cantwell LT;mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.orgGT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT;j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.orgGT; David Heald LT;dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.comGT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] 3rd party labs due-diligence
We require an on-site audit of the lab. 3rd party accreditation bodies aren't perfect. I've found cases where the documentation was in good shape, indicating that the assessor understood ISO/IEC 17025, but the test setups were wrong, indicating that either the assessor didn't understand the EMC standards or the lab went back to the way they were used to doing the test after the assessor left. I have a checklist of common areas of concern in the lab that I use. I can take a 5 minute walk-through and generate enough check-marks to keep me busy at the computer for an hour or two writing the report. Know the standards that apply to your product. Know them in detail. You'll be amazed at what you find in the labs. Ghery S. Pettit -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gartman, W. Richard Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 11:43 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: 3rd party labs due-diligence PSES network, I am looking at do due-diligence assessment of 3rd party labs that we use for EMC, Wireless, and product safety testing. There are the standard lab certifications: IEC17025, A4LA, NVLAP, IECEE CB Scheme, etc. I get many 3rd party reports from labs, that have the proper certification and reference standards in them. What I am looking for is, what beyond these certifications do you look for in a lab to consider it acceptable? Check list, on site/facility reviews? Do you do the due-diligence assessment or is it paper exercise. At what point do you feel sufficient due diligence has been done (acceptable risk tolerance level)? Any comments or perspective are welcome. Thank you. W. Richard Gartman, MS, CSP Product Stewardship Manager Texas Instruments, Education Technology Office: 214-567-7927Email: rgart...@ti.com www.education.ti.com/us/productstewardship www.ti.com/ccr - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard?
Lauren, According to EU Directives all products to be placed on the market must comply with current regulations and applicable standards. There are 2 major sides to your question: did the product change? Did the requirements change? You must evaluate and access your product vs new/updated standard. You can easily come up to the conclusion what no re-test is required as there were no changes in the standard affecting your unchanged product. This should be documented somewhere as part of your technical assessment and DoC should be updated to indicate new standard revision. Mark From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Crane, Lauren Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 1:05 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Retest because of supersded standard? Dear Experts, A test lab is suggesting that because EN61000-6-4:2007 will be superseded in 2014, all conforming products must be retested to the new standard, even if no changes have occurred in the product. Is this a fair claim? Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Chart summarizing differences between versions of EN EMC standards?
In message 1356672946.2724071.1377891431090.javamail.r...@sz0110a.emeryville.ca.mai l.comcast.net, dated Fri, 30 Aug 2013, msherma...@comcast.net writes: Does anyone know of a chart or table or white paper that lists the differences between various versions of EN EMC standards? Not for ENs, but for some of the underlying IEC standards, IEC sells 'redline' versions with the changes highlighted. Specific example: what changed between 2006 and 2001 versions of EN 6000-6-2? No information from CENELEC (for EN 61000-6-2). -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard?
Lauren -- A similar thread is currently running on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/groups/CISPR-22-24-compliance-update-2278131.S.269600494?view=gid=2278131type=memberitem=269600494trk=eml-anet_dig-b_nd-pst_ttle-cn Here is my comment on that thread, but I look forward to the experienced feedback from this EMC-PSTC group of experts: This is a tough one. 1. The essential requirements of ANNEX I of 2004/108/EC are stated with a reference to state of the art: Equipment shall be so designed and manufactured, having regard to the state of the art, as to ensure that:... 2. Harmonized standards are regularly updated, presumably at least in part to reflect the state of the art. 3. If you are choosing to demonstrate conformance with the essential requirements by demonstrating conformance with the applicable harmonized standards, it seems to me that you have an obligation to periodically review whether changes to the harmonized standards constitute changes to the state of the art as applied to your products... Mike - Original Message - From: Lauren Crane lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 3:05:28 PM Subject: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard? Dear Experts, A test lab is suggesting that because EN61000-6-4:2007 will be superseded in 2014, all conforming products must be retested to the new standard, even if no changes have occurred in the product. Is this a fair claim? Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT; emc-p...@ieee.org GT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT; emcp...@radiusnorth.net GT; Mike Cantwell LT; mcantw...@ieee.org GT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT; j.bac...@ieee.org GT; David Heald LT; dhe...@gmail.com GT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] 3rd party labs due-diligence
In message fe37b7a5275ae24195833ce152b33e432e6ed...@dlee08.ent.ti.com, dated Fri, 30 Aug 2013, Gartman, W. Richard rgart...@ti.com writes: What I am looking for is, what beyond these certifications do you look for in a lab to consider it acceptable? I suspect that after seeing all the paperwork and listening to the spiel, you have to ask 'Would I buy a used car from these guys?'. But you can't put that in your due-diligence report, of course. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Chart summarizing differences between versions of EN EMC standards?
Does anyone know of a chart or table or white paper that lists the differences between various versions of EN EMC standards? Specific example: what changed between 2006 and 2001 versions of EN 6000-6-2? thanks, Mike Sherman Product Safety and Compliance Engineer Graco Inc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Retest because of supersded standard?
Dear Experts, A test lab is suggesting that because EN61000-6-4:2007 will be superseded in 2014, all conforming products must be retested to the new standard, even if no changes have occurred in the product. Is this a fair claim? Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] 3rd party labs due-diligence
In message 63e38a5b081437478c77651f3d56c64f57f4f...@orsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com, dated Fri, 30 Aug 2013, Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com writes: I've found cases where the documentation was in good shape, indicating that the assessor understood ISO/IEC 17025, but the test setups were wrong, indicating that either the assessor didn't understand the EMC standards Quite often, I believe. In some cases, they defy understanding! or the lab went back to the way they were used to doing the test after the assessor left. Also quite often. In some cases, they may be right (as well as wrong). But I suppose the OP has enough experience to know about those issues. What I meant by my apparently facetious response is: 'Unless you have full confidence, don't go there'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Retest because of supersded standard?
In message 617eb8c8634c9149aa66c853d7b8ac5322b70...@ch1prd0310mb392.namprd03.prod.o utlook.com, dated Fri, 30 Aug 2013, Crane, Lauren lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.com writes: A test lab is suggesting that because EN61000-6-4:2007 will be superseded in 2014, all conforming products must be retested to the new standard, even if no changes have occurred in the product. Is this a fair claim? No; there is no obligation to re-test if you can write an honest EMC assessment (maybe after pre-compliance testing) that the product conforms to the new edition, maybe because, for example, the changes do not affect your product in any way. For example, a new edition of a standard might change requirements for immunity of data ports. If your product doesn't have data ports, it's not affected by the change. The EMC Directive doesn't demand ANY testing. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] RTTE example
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:44:35 +, Ian White (SXS UK) ian.wh...@uk.spiraxsarco.com wrote: If you have a control panel which has relays and various other control gear on, all mounted on a Din rail type construction this all comes under the LVD and EMC Directives. If you then include a DIN rail mounted 3G Modem (which has its own D of C) would the entire panel then come under RTTE Directive ? 1) Would the panel have to be re-tested ? 2) RTTE requirements on LVD now apply with no bottom limits on LVD? I think it is essentially a general question, What is the requirements for a final product that integrates an RTTE Directive assessed module?. I think the panel would also be covered by the RTTE Directive. There is a discussion about this topic in RTTE CA guidance note, at: http://www.rtteca.com/TGN01%20-%20May%202013.pdf Regards, Tom -- Tomonori Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp URL: http://homepage3.nifty.com/tsato/ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] 3rd party labs due-diligence
Full disclosure, I used to work at a test lab, and I now work for a government regulator that audits test labs. In most cases, as Richard said, test labs, except for possibly your small local labs have accreditations from multiple accreditation bodies, all auditing to some variant of 17025/17065/Guide 65. This means that the labs are subject to audits 12 or more times a year. Now each audit may not cover the full scope that the laboratory has, but their core QA systems are generally being reviewed at each audit, and individual sectors (EMC, Safety, Performance etc.) are typically audited several times a year . Their systems are generally pretty tight, and staff have been trained and audited enough to make sure that they are following their own top level procedures for the most part. If you do audit, you might find a deficiency in corporate level procedures, but most will be relatively minor, and are attributed to human error/laziness. I tell people that ask me to visit your lab(s), talk to the engineers and your account reps. Ask them about the standards, perhaps pick a few sections that are confusing to you and ask them to explain them to you. It will become very obvious very quickly how knowledgeable they are in the standards, and if you are new to the world of testing, how well they are able to take a complex standard and break it down into something that you can understand. Take a tour of their facilities. Try to look past all of the glitz and focus on the condition of their storage areas and equipment. If things are neat and orderly, chances are, they will put the same effort into clearly and properly recording your test results. Also consider their corporate culture. Is the lab focused on customer service, clearly explaining things to you every step of the way, or are they extremely efficient and would prefer to just give you a report with little communication throughout the testing process. Find a lab that is a good fit for your personality and your corporate culture. As far as conducting an audit, when you have most labs being audited by ANSI, A2LA, IAS, NIST/NVLAP, FCC, FDA, OSHA/NRTL, Standards Council of Canada, Industry Canada, Verizon, ATT, EPA, IECEE/CB Scheme and many others, chances are, you will not find any significant issues, especially if the lab has been with the same accreditors for many years. Kevin Robinson On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 4:39 PM, John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk wrote: In message 63E38A5B081437478C77651F3D56C**64f57f4f...@orsmsx102.amr.** corp.intel.com63e38a5b081437478c77651f3d56c64f57f4f...@orsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com, dated Fri, 30 Aug 2013, Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com writes: I've found cases where the documentation was in good shape, indicating that the assessor understood ISO/IEC 17025, but the test setups were wrong, indicating that either the assessor didn't understand the EMC standards Quite often, I believe. In some cases, they defy understanding! or the lab went back to the way they were used to doing the test after the assessor left. Also quite often. In some cases, they may be right (as well as wrong). But I suppose the OP has enough experience to know about those issues. What I meant by my apparently facetious response is: 'Unless you have full confidence, don't go there'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - --**--** This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-**pstc.htmlhttp://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.**ieee.org/http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/**request/user-guide.htmlhttp://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/**listrules.htmlhttp://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE
Re: [PSES] 3rd party labs due-diligence
Well, unfortunately it is too often that some labs just know how to pass an audit, but when it comes to testing, they fall very short. Far too many 'so called' good labs rely on instrumentation and simply do not question results. This leads to bad measurements, even though the lab is supposedly accredited. Dennis Ward Senior Certification Engineer PCTEST This communication and its attachments contain information from PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, Inc., and is intended for the exclusive use of the recipient (s) named above. It may contain information that is confidential and/or legally privileged. Any unauthorized use that may compromise that confidentiality via distribution or disclosure is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately if you receive this communication in error, and delete it from your computer system. Usage of PCTEST email addresses for non-business related activities is strictly prohibited. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect. Thank you. From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 6:19 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] 3rd party labs due-diligence Full disclosure, I used to work at a test lab, and I now work for a government regulator that audits test labs. In most cases, as Richard said, test labs, except for possibly your small local labs have accreditations from multiple accreditation bodies, all auditing to some variant of 17025/17065/Guide 65. This means that the labs are subject to audits 12 or more times a year. Now each audit may not cover the full scope that the laboratory has, but their core QA systems are generally being reviewed at each audit, and individual sectors (EMC, Safety, Performance etc.) are typically audited several times a year . Their systems are generally pretty tight, and staff have been trained and audited enough to make sure that they are following their own top level procedures for the most part. If you do audit, you might find a deficiency in corporate level procedures, but most will be relatively minor, and are attributed to human error/laziness. I tell people that ask me to visit your lab(s), talk to the engineers and your account reps. Ask them about the standards, perhaps pick a few sections that are confusing to you and ask them to explain them to you. It will become very obvious very quickly how knowledgeable they are in the standards, and if you are new to the world of testing, how well they are able to take a complex standard and break it down into something that you can understand. Take a tour of their facilities. Try to look past all of the glitz and focus on the condition of their storage areas and equipment. If things are neat and orderly, chances are, they will put the same effort into clearly and properly recording your test results. Also consider their corporate culture. Is the lab focused on customer service, clearly explaining things to you every step of the way, or are they extremely efficient and would prefer to just give you a report with little communication throughout the testing process. Find a lab that is a good fit for your personality and your corporate culture. As far as conducting an audit, when you have most labs being audited by ANSI, A2LA, IAS, NIST/NVLAP, FCC, FDA, OSHA/NRTL, Standards Council of Canada, Industry Canada, Verizon, ATT, EPA, IECEE/CB Scheme and many others, chances are, you will not find any significant issues, especially if the lab has been with the same accreditors for many years. Kevin Robinson On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 4:39 PM, John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk wrote: In message 63e38a5b081437478c77651f3d56c64f57f4f...@orsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com, dated Fri, 30 Aug 2013, Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com writes: I've found cases where the documentation was in good shape, indicating that the assessor understood ISO/IEC 17025, but the test setups were wrong, indicating that either the assessor didn't understand the EMC standards Quite often, I believe. In some cases, they defy understanding! or the lab went back to the way they were used to doing the test after the assessor left. Also quite often. In some cases, they may be right (as well as wrong). But I suppose the OP has enough experience to know about those issues. What I meant by my apparently facetious response is: 'Unless you have full confidence, don't go there'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
