Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains
In message 1378784340.50598.yahoomail...@web160404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com, dated Mon, 9 Sep 2013, Bill Owsley wdows...@yahoo.com writes: Indeed... the protection scheme that passes Safety, causes the system to 'fail safe' which does not meet the EMC immunity requirements Plain EMC requirements do not consider fault conditions. Functional EMC requirements do. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] EMC/Safety requirements in Algeria
Hello, does anybody has regulatory knowledge regarding EMC and safety requirements in Algeria? Product: eletrical test system for radar components. Best regards Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer Managing Director Regulatory Affairs Specialist Globalnorm GmbH Kurfürstenstr. 112 10787 Berlin Phone +49 30 3229027-51 Cell +49 170 3229027 Fax +49 30 3229027-59 Mail mailto:michael.loer...@globalnorm.de michael.loer...@globalnorm.de http://www.globalnorm.de/ » globalnorm.de Globalnorm GmbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kurfürstenstr. 112, 10787 Berlin Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg HRB 105204 B, USt-ID-Nummer: DE251654448 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] AF ripple in DO-160
HI Ken, this has a dc requirement for loads greater than 400 Watts, but not less like most avionics boxes. UNless I missed something. Seems like something is missing to me.. Cheers, Derek. -Original Message- From: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSES] AF ripple in DO-160 Derek, Check out section 16.7 control on current ripple ac/dc, power factor, harmonic current. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com Reply-To: Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 23:22:35 -0400 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] AF ripple in DO-160 Hi Folks, the DO-160G conducted emissions limits begin at 150 kHz, I'm curious if there are other controlling documents that restrict emissions below 150? I believe Boeing does, and so does Airbus, but with DO-160 I don't see it. I must have dozed through this discussion Insight would be most welcome. Sincerely, Derek Walton L F Research EMC facility. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT;emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT;emcp...@radiusnorth.netGT; Mike Cantwell LT;mcantw...@ieee.orgGT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT;j.bac...@ieee.orgGT; David Heald LT;dhe...@gmail.comGT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] AF ripple in DO-160
In message 8d07c1cf30d1754-1e6c-...@webmail-d273.sysops.aol.com, dated Tue, 10 Sep 2013, Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com writes: this has a dc requirement for loads greater than 400 Watts, but not less like most avionics boxes. UNless I missed something. Seems like something is missing to me. There are difficulties with controlling DC conducted emissions, which is why IEC/EN 610003-2 and -12 don't even try. Instead, they put strict limits on even harmonic emissions, which can only be met if the DC component is also very low. DO-160 may adopt the same method of controlling DC for lower power products. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Using existing WiFi FCC data for new FCCID - Yes or No?
Hi Charles, Sorry for the late reply.I'm just back from vacation and it's possible you may already have your answer. I think there's the engineering aspect and also the legislative aspect. Firstly, if the WiFi part is a fully certified module, then you should not need to repeat all those WiFi tests. The module should have been certified for any host and should therefore not require re-testing for a change in host. (Accepting that the host must be re-tested for its own emissions). If the WiFi part is a Limited Modular Approval, then it may need to be partially re-tested, to allow use in this newly designed host, if the changes are significant. (For example, you might need to consider if the module has a voltage regulator and if the voltage to the module has changed. Now, based on your question, I am going to guess that the WiFi part does not actually have a certification or an FCC ID of its own. So, you would be taking test results from one unit and applying them to another unit. As an engineer, I can see that it would most likely not be a problem. Most likely, the majority of test results may remain unchanged. Of course, I have no idea about the voltage supply to your WiFi transmitter section, or the temperature change around the WiFi part, etc., etc., all of which can affect transmitter performance. (Notice the excessive use of most likely and may in there). From an admin point of view though, you need to be careful that you're not calling the WiFi a reference design, whereby you have certified a device once and then assume the same design will always comply in other hosts, environments and circumstances. There is not (yet?) a place for this in the FCC rules. Also, your old device and your new device would have different FCC IDs but they would have identical test report values for the WiFi sections. When the FCC are searching for faked test reports, this is one of their search criteria (two separate certified devices with identical output powers, for example). In their search, your two devices would show up as having identical output powers. Further investigations would show that all the test results are identical in the reports for two separate products. This could be flagged as a faked test report! At the very, very least, I suspect it would be called in for audit testing. So, I would say that if you do want to use your old WiFi test results for your new product, then you should not just include the results and forget about it. Instead, you will need to provide very clear and thorough explanations/justifications to your TCB, for upload to the FCC website. You may need to do some partial testing to justify it. The FCC's modular approvals (and limited modular approvals) process exists to allow this sort of data re-use. Certification of a design within a device, to be copied by other devices, is not a permitted route. If in doubt, I would recommend a re-test. Michael. Michael Derby Regulatory Engineer ACB Europe From: Grasso, Charles [mailto:charles.gra...@echostar.com] Sent: 30 August 2013 17:20 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Using existing WiFi FCC data for new FCCID - Yes or No? Hello, Given: A product that has a front panel and a main board. The front panel (along with USB and other electronics) also includes the WiFI circuitry and antenna connectors. The main board also integrates (on board) a RF4CE radio for remote functionality. Scenario: As the result of a cost reduction effort, the main board has been redesigned and a new cheaper RF4CE radio circuit included - however there are *NO* changes to the front panel. Of course the RF4CE radio will be tested to ensure compliance to FCC regulations, however as the WiFi radio has not changed - there is a desire NOT to repeat the extensive WiFi testing that has already been previously done. A query was made to a TCB as to whether the previous WiFi data could be used in addition with the new RF4CE data to apply for a new FCCID. Question: Does anyone know why this approach would not be acceptable?? Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications (w) 303-706-5467 (c) 303-204-2974 (t) 3032042...@vtext.com (e) charles.gra...@echostar.com (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules:
Re: [PSES] Wire ampacities -
. . . or wire in free air, or buried, depending on what table you look at. As as gut feel, I would say that 3 inches of 26AWG would have a very low temperature rise at 500mA, but as John stated, it's best to run a test. ___ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering From: IBM Ken ibm...@gmail.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, Date: 09/04/2013 02:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] Wire ampacities - Ampacity charts (particularly in the NEC) may assume wire pulled in conduit, more than one current-carrying conductor, etc. You may be better off using a chart from your product Standard (60950 has something to say on this topic but it's a bit conservative).In your case, I would approach the agency with some thermal testing showing that you haven't exceeeded the insulation's temperature rating (assuming it has one) in the application and you continue to pass all the other requirements of your product standard. If it's not a ground wire I think they would be OK with this approach and some limited testing. -Ken On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:15 PM, McInturff, Gary gary.mcintu...@esterline.com wrote: I was just discussing the current handling capabilities of appliance wiring material and while I have a chart it is of unknown heritage and differs from some other reference material. For example the chart I have says 26AWG wire can handle about 0.25 amps, but when I look at the connector it says about 1 amp with a 26 AWG wire. I made a search for the NEC amperages but they I could find anything smaller (larger?) about 18 guage and it was primarily for power wiring. Can anybody give me a good reference for AWM current handling capabilities? The UL web-site seems pretty useless as well. Heck I think I talked one of their engineers out of the chart I have. My original supposition was that the wire insulation rating would be exceeded if X amps were run through Y gauge wire, and that was from a safety perspective the upper limit of current. I realized that impedance per/foot has implications on voltage drop etc, but in this case those things are moot. I just want to run 0.5 amps down a 26 AWG wire for about 3 inches at low frequency without overheating the insulation. Again one reference holds about ¼ amp, while another says 1 amp. . Gary McInturff Reliability/Compliance Engineer Esterline Interface Technologies Featuring ADVANCED INPUT, GAMESMAN, LRE MEDICAL, and MEMTRON products 600 W. Wilbur Avenue Coeur d’Alene, ID 83815-9496 Toll Free: 800-444-5923 X1XXX Tel: (208) 635-8 Fax: (208) 635-8 www.esterline.com/interfacetechnologies Technology, Innovation, Performance… Information in or attached to this e-mail message may be subject to export control restrictions of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (22 CFR pts. 120-130) or the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) (15 CFR pts. 730-774). Before exporting this information outside the United States or releasing it to a foreign person in the United States, you need to determine whether a license under the EAR or the ITAR is required to do so. If you have any questions about this obligation, please contact me. Click here to read disclaimer - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT; emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT;emcp...@radiusnorth.netGT; Mike Cantwell LT;mcantw...@ieee.orgGT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT;j.bac...@ieee.orgGT; David Heald LT;dhe...@gmail.comGT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list
Re: [PSES] AF ripple in DO-160
Clearly the standard considers dc load sdissipating less than 400 Watts unimportant contributors to overall ripple. This tracks with USAF practice of ignoring the CE101 requirement completely, for all loads. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 05:12:04 -0400 (EDT) To: ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] AF ripple in DO-160 HI Ken, this has a dc requirement for loads greater than 400 Watts, but not less like most avionics boxes. UNless I missed something. Seems like something is missing to me.. Cheers, Derek. -Original Message- From: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSES] AF ripple in DO-160 Derek, Check out section 16.7 control on current ripple ac/dc, power factor, harmonic current. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com Reply-To: Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 23:22:35 -0400 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] AF ripple in DO-160 Hi Folks, the DO-160G conducted emissions limits begin at 150 kHz, I'm curious if there are other controlling documents that restrict emissions below 150? I believe Boeing does, and so does Airbus, but with DO-160 I don't see it. I must have dozed through this discussion Insight would be most welcome. Sincerely, Derek Walton L F Research EMC facility. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT;emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT;emcp...@radiusnorth.netGT; Mike Cantwell LT;mcantw...@ieee.orgGT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT;j.bac...@ieee.orgGT; David Heald LT;dhe...@gmail.comGT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] PoE IEEE 802.3AF
Hi Group, Does anyone know what the maximum capacitor that is allowed in a design in order to be IEEE 802.3AF compliant? I don't know the limit. thank you Kevin - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
