In message
f0bbd00eaeb04a47b2cd56eace4fb...@blupr02mb116.namprd02.prod.outlook.com
, dated Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com
writes:
There is no mutual recognition requirement among NRTLs,
That seems to be a recipe for chaos. Mutual recognition is a very strong
In message 54079132.7070...@ieee.org, dated Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Richard
Nute ri...@ieee.org writes:
The manufacturer hasn't been damaged by the cert house, so there
is nothing that a lawyer can recover on behalf or the manufacturer.
Well, that's arguable. Time has been lost. Dollars have been
In message
49b036a46b7543609a62f14804058...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com
, dated Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Nyffenegger, Dave
dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com writes:
But the NRTLs are accredited and regularly reviewed/inspected by their
accreditation bodies in order to stay on OSHAs NRTL list
Fellow List persons...
Please help refresh a tired brain. A designer of a product tells us that
he passes FCC emissions testing if he puts ferrite sleeves (beads?) on
the four HDMI cables connected at the rear panel of the product.
He tells us that all he needs to do is add a statement in
In message
46b74057309b4f7e943f58221fd6d...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com
, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, Nyffenegger, Dave
dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com writes:
With regards to electronic power supplies most data sheets I have seen
state compliance to UL 508 and EN 60950-1 but do not
In message 5408073f.6050...@gmail.com, dated Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Scott
Douglas sdouglas...@gmail.com writes:
He tells us that all he needs to do is add a statement in the user
manual to the effect that the HDMI output cables must have ferrite
sleeves (beads?) on them.
While you didn't ask, in
You are highly unlikely to find the ferrite prayer beads at Best Buy. If you
don't specify which ones to get you have no idea what the result will be. I
think you are correct, the beads must be shipped with the product. The right
ones, to boot.
Now, how does the designer know that he needs
Hi David,
I think youll need a solid state switch/relay switched using a bounce/transient free logic type signal.
Regards,
Tony
Sent:Wednesday, September 03, 2014 at 4:49 PM
From:David 00fdec74198b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org
To:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject:[PSES] ISO 7637-2
I'm with Ghery on this one.
All HDMI cables are not created equal.
Screening of the backshell and connection of the cable shield is critical.
James
-Original Message-
From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com]
Sent: 04 September 2014 08:46
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
I third this sentiment. I've seen wide variation in cable construction
with respect to shell grounding and raw cable shield construction (foil
types, braid % coverage).
HDMI cables with ferrite cores are available at places like Monoprice, but
they are definitely in the minority. A web search
On Wed, 3 Sep 2014 23:31:27 -0700,
Scott Douglas sdouglas...@gmail.com wrote:
Now, my old brain thinks the above is not acceptable and that the FCC
says that anything special needed to pass FCC testing must be provided
with the product. And I am thinking that ferrites are special as you
Scott,
See FCC Part 15 - § 15.27 Special accessories
-Bob Sykes
-Original Message-
From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 2:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables
Fellow List persons...
It's all in Part 15, spread about.
47CFR15.27
47CFR15.31(j)
-Original Message-
From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 2:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables
Fellow List persons...
Right, typically the output supply bonding would be done outside the supply to
make it PELV. The main question is whether the supplies meet the SELV
criteria for keeping the output voltage limited under the internal fault
condition if they claim compliance with UL 508 and EN 60950-1 but do
In message
b6e430c12b7c42449d6e6f3a8a6cc...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com
, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, Nyffenegger, Dave
dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com writes:
The main question is whether the supplies meet the SELV criteria for
keeping the output voltage limited under the internal fault
Brian is 100% correct in that NRTL's are within their right to reject
certifications and or test reports from other NRTL labs.
There is an NRTL here in the U.S. that has strict requirements about accepting
component approvals from other NRTL's. They may accept other NRTL approvals but
they
From what I'm told, just the opposite. The NRTLs need to be able to justify
all their decisions to the accreditation body if questioned, or so I'm told.
Of course if something slips through and is not questioned by the body during
review then...
-Dave
-Original Message-
From:
The NRTLs I work with don't seem to have any issue with mutual recognition with
other NRTLs. Only issue they have is with CE mark which of course is
self-certified so can be rightly questioned.
-Dave
-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent:
In message
92dfdeb9614f468a9db0cb3301143...@bn1pr08mb202.namprd08.prod.outlook.com
, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, Tyra, John john_t...@bose.com writes:
Brian is 100% correct in that NRTL's are within their right to reject
certifications and or test reports from other NRTL labs.
There is an NRTL
NRTL's are like doctors. Just because someone has a medical degree does not
mean they are good doctors. Same with NRTL's in my experience. Just because
they are accredited does not mean they are good test labs. There are ones that
do excellent jobs and others not so much.
When I was at TUV we
From: Doug Powell
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 3:40 AM
To: jmsh...@pacbell.net ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got
there on business!!! (Don't)
Just for clarification, may I get concise answers to each of these
Don't forget we are dealing with Registered Trademarks. The NRTLs have
complete discretion over who is allowed to use their mark. They also, of
course, have complete discretion over what test data they accept. We have
found some NRTLs accept other NRTLs data only when a complete test report
The designer is flat wrong.
15.27 makes it clear that if such a 'special accessory' is required for
compliance of a device the they either must be provided with the device or
they must ensure a method such that the special accessory is provided to the
user of the device without additional charge
Tom,
You are correct. Refer to Part 15.27 for the answer. Special accessories
needed for compliance must be supplied with the product, or must ensure that
the accessories are provided in another way at no cost to the end user.
Bill Stumpf
D.L.S. Electronic Systems, Inc.
166 South Carter
Playing the devil advocate here only because I find this interesting and I'm
not advocating anything. Heck I'm probably just arguing for argument sake.
If all cables are not equal as Ghery and note and the designer/manufacturer
has knowledge of that don't the cables then become special
NWEMC in Portland Oregon
Northwest EMC, Inc.
22975 NW Evergreen Parkway
Suite 400
Hillsboro, Oregon 97124
Bus: (503) 943-3124
Bus Fax: (503) 844-3826
E-mail: kvall...@nwemc.commailto:kvall...@nwemc.com
In message
2CF77CABFB3BC045B2724A8EF4182E7310324D46E0@P3PW5EX1MB13.EX1.SECURESERVER
.NET, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, jral...@productsafetyinc.com
jral...@productsafetyinc.com writes:
Don't forget we are dealing with Registered Trademarks. The NRTLs have
complete discretion over who is allowed to
Hi John:
On 9/4/2014 8:52 AM, jral...@productsafetyinc.com wrote:
Is it that NRTLs don't trust each other's data? Or is the pink elephant in the
room revenue and market share??
The issue is revenue (profits).
If the NRTL performs ALL of the tests, the revenue is
higher and the profits
Hi Rich,
Yes, I would agree. Not sure how or if we'll ever get there, but if an NRTL is
covered by OSHA for a Standard, all NRTLs should accept their mark and not have
to repeat any testing. How do we get there if the Standard itself leaves too
much room for interpretation?? If all the
The problem with HDMI cables is that the HDMI standards for the cables do not
specify that the shields be terminated. Thus, cables with improperly
terminated shields can be labeled as HDMI compliant. Best of luck in buying
one off the shelf and having it done right from an EMC perspective.
Europe is dealing with separate and sovereign countries, so MRA and the like
between certifiers in all countries are needed. But, if you go to one test
house in one country and another test house in that same country, even in
Europe, I am sure you will find that they do not all 'accept' each
In message 004e01cfc86b$6490a290$2db1e7b0$@pctestlab.com, dated Thu, 4
Sep 2014, dward dw...@pctestlab.com writes:
But, if you go to one test house in one country and another test house
in that same country, even in Europe, I am sure you will find that they
do not all 'accept' each others
To continue flogging a dead frog
The PHB/MBA style management that has plagued North American compliance labs is
where it is because we, the compliance engineering community, have chosen the
path of least resistance (which is required for reliable bonding...). Mr. Nute
is correct in the
In message
63e38a5b081437478c77651f3d56c64f580a3...@orsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com,
dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com writes:
The problem with HDMI cables is that the HDMI standards for the cables
do not specify that the shields be terminated.
Is anyone complaining
I do want to chime in here on a few issues to stop any misconceptions about
the NRTL program. First a disclaimer, in my former life, I worked for an
NRTL, I now work for OSHA in the office that oversees the NRTL program.
The NRTL Program applies ONLY to end products used in the workplace. It
In message
CADYqxLChbO-RFt2pTTSRP6Am9+SJcRhwgp7iuDmvtyhPCNo8=a...@mail.gmail.com,
dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, Kevin Robinson kevinrobinso...@gmail.com
writes:
The NRTL Program applies ONLY to end products used in the workplace.
It does not apply to component power supplies, plastic materials
India is a member if the CB scheme yet they will not accept CB certifications
and reports for the recent mandatory certification scheme that was rolled out
in that country. They insist they must do complete retesting.
There was a recent IECEE vote to suspend their membership in the CB Scheme
In message
c8bf8e4aa3b145658432b55fa8948...@bn1pr08mb202.namprd08.prod.outlook.com
, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, Tyra, John john_t...@bose.com writes:
India is a member if the CB scheme yet they will not accept CB
certifications and reports for the recent mandatory certification
scheme that was
Thanks Kevin,
Appreciate the information as that clear up a lot of misconceptions on the NRTL
program.
Please be sure I was not trying to criticize the OSHA NRTL program and as you
said only sharing my experience from 20 years ago.
Sounds like OSHA has made great progress in the audit program
As previously stated to Mr. Robinson, the industrial compliance engineering
community very much appreciates his support of our concerns and ideas. Good
people, this is our chance to provide some relevant industry comments. For
example, for some product classes the default factory FUS audit
That may be true John, but from experience I have found NCB's not accepting
data from another NCB has rarely been related to science and/or engineering
reasons.
-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 4:02 PM
To:
Hi Brian,
You stated : Do not understand the statement that components are not
covered by NRTL program, as the standards list does include component
standards: www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/list_standards.html
In short, we know, and we are attempting to clean up that list to remove
standards that
A generation ago I was involved with EMI testing of computer products. Most of
the products our lab tested were PCs (XT, AT), and peripherals (printers,
monitors, Modems, Display Adapters, etc). Printer cable was always a key
issue. We would always use Belden cables with the printers, as
All,This is probably a curiosity. I ran across this article that claims to shield cell phones from hackers at specific operating frequencies.http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/04/1984-anti-surveillance-fashion/?utm_medium=feedutm_source=Feed_Classicutm_campaign=Engadgetncid=rss_semiHas anyone here
India is a CB scheme member, However the Mandatory (Compulsory) registration
of ITE and A/V products is a national registration scheme. As it is the
national scheme, India insist on in-country testing at BIS( Bureau of Indian
Standards) certified labs. The applicable standard is BIS ...
Doug,
Until the article also said it blocked 13.56 MHz (RFID), it was Almost
believable. But no way does “police grade shielding fabric” whatever that
nonsense means blocks 13.56 to 2.4 GHz.
You’d be better off wrapping your cell phone in aluminum foil, and might as
well wear a hat made
All,
And just to comment further on this. If the fabric really did work, then your
battery would be dead because it would be in constant high power mode trying to
find an available cell tower, which means each time you placed it in this magic
fabric you would have to turn your phone off.
Larry,Thanks for your responses. I have seen this sort of thing before. I seem to recall someone selling a type of RF absorbing ointment for your skin, a power cord that cleans the power from your outlet before it gets to your audio system and so on. While there may be some effect, I think this is
Yes, I meant another standard specific to power supplies, compliance to which
would without a doubt include SELV rating.
-Dave
-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 9:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re:
Probably from the same people that brought you snake oil and the like.
Dennis Ward
This communication and its attachements contain information from PCTEST
Engineering Laboratory, Inc., and I sintended for the exclusive use of the
recipient(s) named above. It may contain
Dear Sudhakar,
So what is the point being member of CB scheme if they do not accept results
from IECEE CB report? This is in contradiction to CB scheme idea which points
out one time testing. US national standard is also UL 60950-1 but they accept
IECEE report if national differences are
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