Re: [PSES] power strip details -> electronic document preservation

[Pete Perkins]

Brian et al,

Yes, I have struggled thru several document format changes and now keep 
all important docs in both their native format (eg docx today) as well as PDF.  
Not an absolute guarantee of compatibility but now there are a couple of 
starting points to work to recover documents.  Oh yes, I also have a scanner 
that will try to inhale and convert any paper to a coherent format.  

BTW, I really enjoy the path's that these threads take - they have a 
life of their own.  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 2:00 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details -> electronic document preservation

Believe that preservation of legacy electronic documents is very important, and 
am happy to see someone attempting to preserve this stuff.

Please note that 'doc' and 'docx' are not usable standards (even where the 
OOXML is supposedly per the ISO29500 format) and is ill-suited for reliable 
backups and long-term archives. The originator of the standard chose to break 
the their promise of backward compatibility with ECMA376, so there is reason to 
distrust compatibility of files with future versions of whatever the document 
standard de jour would be. OOXML documents, even when displayed on similar 
platforms, are oft rendered differently.

Other more reliable and less volatile document standards should be 
investigated; for example ISO26300. The ISO and IEC do not seem to understand 
the significant risks of data loss where poor document standards are being used.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 1:08 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

Ralph,
 The IEEE is a not-for-profit organisation, but if there is a chance of 
making money they will do so. Traditionally you can still buy withdrawn 
standards.

 Having revised several old C62 standards the biggest problem I found is 
that the IEEE loses the source text or graphics or both in the passing years 
since the document was created. From these experiences I then under took a 
mission to grab what C62 materials the IEEE still had available and convert 
them into a Microsoft Word format. C62.41.1 was one document I rescued in 2008. 
Thus the Surge Protective Devices Committee (SPDC) does a Word document 
available that can be revised and it would be published as something like 
C62.4.1.1 2019.

 To your last question what does MSPD stand for, it's Multi-service Surge 
Protective Device, a device that internally houses a collection of power SPDs 
and signal SPDs all with a shared ground reference bond.

IEEE Std. C62.50-2012
multiservice (multiport) surge protective device (MSPD): A surge protective 
device providing protection of equipment connected to two or more services such 
as power, telecommunications, signaling, data, etc., with the respective 
conductors routed via a common enclosure in which an internal shared ground 
reference bond has been provided among these services during surge conditions.

Regards,

Mick Maytum

Safety and Telecom
Standards

mjmay...@gmail.com

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  <j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List 

Re: [PSES] power strip details -> electronic document preservation

[Brian O'Connell]

Believe that preservation of legacy electronic documents is very important, and 
am happy to see someone attempting to preserve this stuff.

Please note that 'doc' and 'docx' are not usable standards (even where the 
OOXML is supposedly per the ISO29500 format) and is ill-suited for reliable 
backups and long-term archives. The originator of the standard chose to break 
the their promise of backward compatibility with ECMA376, so there is reason to 
distrust compatibility of files with future versions of whatever the document 
standard de jour would be. OOXML documents, even when displayed on similar 
platforms, are oft rendered differently.

Other more reliable and less volatile document standards should be 
investigated; for example ISO26300. The ISO and IEC do not seem to understand 
the significant risks of data loss where poor document standards are being used.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 1:08 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

Ralph,
 The IEEE is a not-for-profit organisation, but if there is a chance 
of making money they will do so. Traditionally you can still buy 
withdrawn standards.

 Having revised several old C62 standards the biggest problem I found 
is that the IEEE loses the source text or graphics or both in the 
passing years since the document was created. From these experiences I 
then under took a mission to grab what C62 materials the IEEE still had 
available and convert them into a Microsoft Word format. C62.41.1 was 
one document I rescued in 2008. Thus the Surge Protective Devices 
Committee (SPDC) does a Word document available that can be revised and 
it would be published as something like C62.4.1.1 2019.

 To your last question what does MSPD stand for, it's Multi-service 
Surge Protective Device, a device that internally houses a collection of 
power SPDs and signal SPDs all with a shared ground reference bond.

IEEE Std. C62.50-2012
multiservice (multiport) surge protective device (MSPD): A surge 
protective device providing protection of equipment connected to two or 
more services such as power, telecommunications, signaling, data, etc., 
with the respective conductors routed via a common enclosure in which an 
internal shared ground reference bond has been provided among these 
services during surge conditions.

Regards,

Mick Maytum

Safety and Telecom
Standards

mjmay...@gmail.com

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Ralph McDiarmid]

I trust all the good background information in C62.41.1 doesn't get lost when 
pull the standard in 2018.  Hopefully it gets transferred (and perhaps revised) 
to a new IEEE std.

I will hazard a guess that MSPD stands for Mains Surge Protection Device.


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 1:17 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Good info. What is an MSPD?

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M 
Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

-Original Message-
From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 8:51 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

IEEE Std. C62.41.1 (2002 - reaffirmed 2008) contains a mountain of information. 
If you go to A.2.2.3 Voltages induced in cables adjacent to down-conductors, it 
covers the induced voltage in an open-circuit loop by a nearby lightning 
current. The induced voltage table gives values ranging from 50 V to 500 V. Do 
the same calculation for Ethernet cables and you end up with voltages in the kV 
region. The inclusion of a voltage limiter is not covered. The poor coupling 
between the source and victim means that the voltage limiter current is 
surprisingly small.

My previous comments are comprehended with statements like "The resulting 
voltages induced in the loop by the fast-changing surge currents flowing in the 
grounding system can cause a large voltage difference between the power port 
and the telecommunications port". 
Hence paving the way for the use of MSPDs to reduce the inter-service voltage 
differences for equipment or equipment clusters.

At the time of document creation, MSPDs where not widely used and in Annex D 
called "surge reference equalisers". To understand how the MSPD transfers the 
surge on one service to another you need to look at more modern documents like 
ITU-T recommendation K.98 (08/2014) Overvoltage protection guide for 
telecommunication equipment installed in customer premises. This Recommendation 
covers direct strikes to the incoming service feed, mains configuration types 
of TN-S, TN-C, TN-C-S, TT and IT together with effects of various earthing 
system lead lengths and earth electrode resistances.

Time is running out for IEEE Std. C62.41.1, under new IEEE rules the life of a 
standard is 10 years. If nothing is done to revise C62.41.1 it with be 
withdrawn in 2018. Hopefully the IEEE PES Surge Protective Device Committee 
will take up this challenge and, as part of the revision rational,  replace the 
10/350 with the more realistic values from CIGRÉ Technical Bulletin (TB) 549 
(2013) Lightning Parameters for Engineering Applications


Regards,

Mick Maytum

Safety and Telecom
Standards

mjmay...@gmail.com

https://ictsp-essays.info


-- Original Message --
From: "Richard Nute" <ri...@ieee.org>
To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Sent: 18/09/2017 18:58:00
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

>Hi Ralph:
>
>Thanks for the reference.  My comments are validated by ANSI C62.41.1 .
>
>Best regards,
>Rich
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
>Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 9:01 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
>
>Pardon me, the correct reference is ANSI C62.41.1  (finger trouble on
>keyboard)
>
>Ralph McDiarmid
>Product Compliance
>Engineering
>Solar Business
>Schneider Electric
>
>
>-Original Message-----
>From: Ralph McDiarmid
>Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 8:55 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details
>
>While I agree that an SPD at the service entrance seems to be the way 
>to suppress surges resulting from direct/near/far lightning strokes, 
>ANSI C62.4.1 writes about switching transients on circuits which cause 
>oscillatory surges on the mains.  SPD at service entrance might be less 
>effective for those.  The ANSI standard seems a very good summary of 
>what is a complex topic.
>
>Ralph McDiarmid
>Product Compliance
>Engineering
>Solar Business
>Schneider Electric
>
>
>From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
>Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:30 PM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
>
>
>I believe the principal culprit is the extreme magnetic field that 
>surrounds the conductors when the surge protector operates rather than 
>the current in the PE conductor.  This field can generate high voltages 
>in adjacent and nearby low-voltage conductors such as telephone and 
>data 

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[John Woodgate]

Thank you. Not Miami South Police District, then.
 
I wouldn't put protective devices for different services close together, 
because energetic crosstalk (with sparks) could occur.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty
 
From: Adam Dixon [mailto:lanterna.viri...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 9:32 AM
To: John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com>
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
 
>From K.98:
3.1.4 multiservice surge protective device (MSPD) [ITU-T K.85]: A surge 
protective device (SPD) containing both telecommunications and mains 
protection. It may also include port protection for video or Ethernet
 
Cheers,
Adam in Atlanta
 
On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 4:16 AM, John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com 
<mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com> > wrote:
Good info. What is an MSPD?

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk>  J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

-Original Message-
From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com <mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com> ]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 8:51 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

IEEE Std. C62.41.1 (2002 - reaffirmed 2008) contains a mountain of information. 
If you go to A.2.2.3 Voltages induced in cables adjacent to down-conductors, it 
covers the induced voltage in an open-circuit loop by a nearby lightning 
current. The induced voltage table gives values ranging from 50 V to 500 V. Do 
the same calculation for Ethernet cables and you end up with voltages in the kV 
region. The inclusion of a voltage limiter is not covered. The poor coupling 
between the source and victim means that the voltage limiter current is 
surprisingly small.

My previous comments are comprehended with statements like "The resulting 
voltages induced in the loop by the fast-changing surge currents flowing in the 
grounding system can cause a large voltage difference between the power port 
and the telecommunications port".
Hence paving the way for the use of MSPDs to reduce the inter-service voltage 
differences for equipment or equipment clusters.

At the time of document creation, MSPDs where not widely used and in Annex D 
called "surge reference equalisers". To understand how the MSPD transfers the 
surge on one service to another you need to look at more modern documents like 
ITU-T recommendation K.98 (08/2014) Overvoltage protection guide for 
telecommunication equipment installed in customer premises. This Recommendation 
covers direct strikes to the incoming service feed, mains configuration types 
of TN-S, TN-C, TN-C-S, TT and IT together with effects of various earthing 
system lead lengths and earth electrode resistances.

Time is running out for IEEE Std. C62.41.1, under new IEEE rules the life of a 
standard is 10 years. If nothing is done to revise C62.41.1 it with be 
withdrawn in 2018. Hopefully the IEEE PES Surge Protective Device Committee 
will take up this challenge and, as part of the revision rational,  replace the 
10/350 with the more realistic values from CIGRÉ Technical Bulletin (TB) 549 
(2013) Lightning Parameters for Engineering Applications


Regards,

Mick Maytum

Safety and Telecom
Standards

mjmay...@gmail.com <mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com> 

https://ictsp-essays.info


-- Original Message --
From: "Richard Nute" <ri...@ieee.org <mailto:ri...@ieee.org> >
To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org <mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org> 
Sent: 18/09/2017 18:58:00
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

>Hi Ralph:
>
>Thanks for the reference.  My comments are validated by ANSI C62.41.1 .
>
>Best regards,
>Rich
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com 
><mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com> ]
>Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 9:01 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
>Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
>
>Pardon me, the correct reference is ANSI C62.41.1  (finger trouble on
>keyboard)
>
>Ralph McDiarmid
>Product Compliance
>Engineering
>Solar Business
>Schneider Electric
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Ralph McDiarmid
>Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 8:55 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
>Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details
>
>While I agree that an SPD at the service entrance seems to be the way
>to suppress surges resulting from direct/near/far lightning strokes,
>ANSI C62.4.1 writes about switching tra

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Adam Dixon]

>From K.98:
3.1.4 multiservice surge protective device (MSPD) [ITU-T K.85]: A surge
protective device (SPD) containing both telecommunications and mains
protection. It may also include port protection for video or Ethernet

Cheers,
Adam in Atlanta


On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 4:16 AM, John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com>
wrote:

> Good info. What is an MSPD?
>
> With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
>
> UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 8:51 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] power strip details
>
> IEEE Std. C62.41.1 (2002 - reaffirmed 2008) contains a mountain of
> information. If you go to A.2.2.3 Voltages induced in cables adjacent to
> down-conductors, it covers the induced voltage in an open-circuit loop by a
> nearby lightning current. The induced voltage table gives values ranging
> from 50 V to 500 V. Do the same calculation for Ethernet cables and you end
> up with voltages in the kV region. The inclusion of a voltage limiter is
> not covered. The poor coupling between the source and victim means that the
> voltage limiter current is surprisingly small.
>
> My previous comments are comprehended with statements like "The resulting
> voltages induced in the loop by the fast-changing surge currents flowing in
> the grounding system can cause a large voltage difference between the power
> port and the telecommunications port".
> Hence paving the way for the use of MSPDs to reduce the inter-service
> voltage differences for equipment or equipment clusters.
>
> At the time of document creation, MSPDs where not widely used and in Annex
> D called "surge reference equalisers". To understand how the MSPD transfers
> the surge on one service to another you need to look at more modern
> documents like ITU-T recommendation K.98 (08/2014) Overvoltage protection
> guide for telecommunication equipment installed in customer premises. This
> Recommendation covers direct strikes to the incoming service feed, mains
> configuration types of TN-S, TN-C, TN-C-S, TT and IT together with effects
> of various earthing system lead lengths and earth electrode resistances.
>
> Time is running out for IEEE Std. C62.41.1, under new IEEE rules the life
> of a standard is 10 years. If nothing is done to revise C62.41.1 it with be
> withdrawn in 2018. Hopefully the IEEE PES Surge Protective Device Committee
> will take up this challenge and, as part of the revision rational,  replace
> the 10/350 with the more realistic values from CIGRÉ Technical Bulletin
> (TB) 549 (2013) Lightning Parameters for Engineering Applications
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mick Maytum
>
> Safety and Telecom
> Standards
>
> mjmay...@gmail.com
>
> https://ictsp-essays.info
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Richard Nute" <ri...@ieee.org>
> To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
> Sent: 18/09/2017 18:58:00
> Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
>
> >Hi Ralph:
> >
> >Thanks for the reference.  My comments are validated by ANSI C62.41.1 .
> >
> >Best regards,
> >Rich
> >
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
> >Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 9:01 AM
> >To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> >Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
> >
> >Pardon me, the correct reference is ANSI C62.41.1  (finger trouble on
> >keyboard)
> >
> >Ralph McDiarmid
> >Product Compliance
> >Engineering
> >Solar Business
> >Schneider Electric
> >
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Ralph McDiarmid
> >Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 8:55 AM
> >To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> >Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details
> >
> >While I agree that an SPD at the service entrance seems to be the way
> >to suppress surges resulting from direct/near/far lightning strokes,
> >ANSI C62.4.1 writes about switching transients on circuits which cause
> >oscillatory surges on the mains.  SPD at service entrance might be less
> >effective for those.  The ANSI standard seems a very good summary of
> >what is a complex topic.
> >
> >Ralph McDiarmid
> >Product Compliance
> >Engineering
> >Solar Business
> >Schneider Electric
> >
> >
> >From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
> >Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:30 PM
> >To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> >Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip det

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[John Woodgate]

Good info. What is an MSPD?

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

-Original Message-
From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 8:51 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

IEEE Std. C62.41.1 (2002 - reaffirmed 2008) contains a mountain of information. 
If you go to A.2.2.3 Voltages induced in cables adjacent to down-conductors, it 
covers the induced voltage in an open-circuit loop by a nearby lightning 
current. The induced voltage table gives values ranging from 50 V to 500 V. Do 
the same calculation for Ethernet cables and you end up with voltages in the kV 
region. The inclusion of a voltage limiter is not covered. The poor coupling 
between the source and victim means that the voltage limiter current is 
surprisingly small.

My previous comments are comprehended with statements like "The resulting 
voltages induced in the loop by the fast-changing surge currents flowing in the 
grounding system can cause a large voltage difference between the power port 
and the telecommunications port". 
Hence paving the way for the use of MSPDs to reduce the inter-service voltage 
differences for equipment or equipment clusters.

At the time of document creation, MSPDs where not widely used and in Annex D 
called "surge reference equalisers". To understand how the MSPD transfers the 
surge on one service to another you need to look at more modern documents like 
ITU-T recommendation K.98 (08/2014) Overvoltage protection guide for 
telecommunication equipment installed in customer premises. This Recommendation 
covers direct strikes to the incoming service feed, mains configuration types 
of TN-S, TN-C, TN-C-S, TT and IT together with effects of various earthing 
system lead lengths and earth electrode resistances.

Time is running out for IEEE Std. C62.41.1, under new IEEE rules the life of a 
standard is 10 years. If nothing is done to revise C62.41.1 it with be 
withdrawn in 2018. Hopefully the IEEE PES Surge Protective Device Committee 
will take up this challenge and, as part of the revision rational,  replace the 
10/350 with the more realistic values from CIGRÉ Technical Bulletin (TB) 549 
(2013) Lightning Parameters for Engineering Applications


Regards,

Mick Maytum

Safety and Telecom
Standards

mjmay...@gmail.com

https://ictsp-essays.info


-- Original Message --
From: "Richard Nute" <ri...@ieee.org>
To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Sent: 18/09/2017 18:58:00
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

>Hi Ralph:
>
>Thanks for the reference.  My comments are validated by ANSI C62.41.1 .
>
>Best regards,
>Rich
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
>Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 9:01 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
>
>Pardon me, the correct reference is ANSI C62.41.1  (finger trouble on
>keyboard)
>
>Ralph McDiarmid
>Product Compliance
>Engineering
>Solar Business
>Schneider Electric
>
>
>-Original Message-----
>From: Ralph McDiarmid
>Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 8:55 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details
>
>While I agree that an SPD at the service entrance seems to be the way 
>to suppress surges resulting from direct/near/far lightning strokes, 
>ANSI C62.4.1 writes about switching transients on circuits which cause 
>oscillatory surges on the mains.  SPD at service entrance might be less 
>effective for those.  The ANSI standard seems a very good summary of 
>what is a complex topic.
>
>Ralph McDiarmid
>Product Compliance
>Engineering
>Solar Business
>Schneider Electric
>
>
>From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
>Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:30 PM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
>
>
>I believe the principal culprit is the extreme magnetic field that 
>surrounds the conductors when the surge protector operates rather than 
>the current in the PE conductor.  This field can generate high voltages 
>in adjacent and nearby low-voltage conductors such as telephone and 
>data cables.  Think air-core transformer.
>
>If the surge protector is at the service entrance, then the high 
>current is in the electricity supplier wires, and the coupling to 
>telephone, cable, and data cables is reduced due to the distance 
>between the wires.
>
>http://www.nemasurge.org/faqs/
>
>Rich
>
>
>From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com]
>Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 1:40 AM
>To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: [PSES] power strip details
>
>
>John,
>

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Richard Nute]

Hi Ralph:

Thanks for the reference.  My comments are validated by ANSI C62.41.1 .

Best regards,
Rich
 

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 9:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Pardon me, the correct reference is ANSI C62.41.1  (finger trouble on keyboard)

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid 
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 8:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details

While I agree that an SPD at the service entrance seems to be the way to 
suppress surges resulting from direct/near/far lightning strokes, ANSI C62.4.1 
writes about switching transients on circuits which cause oscillatory surges on 
the mains.  SPD at service entrance might be less effective for those.  The 
ANSI standard seems a very good summary of what is a complex topic.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details


I believe the principal culprit is the extreme magnetic field that surrounds 
the conductors when the surge protector operates rather than the current in the 
PE conductor.  This field can generate high voltages in adjacent and nearby 
low-voltage conductors such as telephone and data cables.  Think air-core 
transformer.  

If the surge protector is at the service entrance, then the high current is in 
the electricity supplier wires, and the coupling to telephone, cable, and data 
cables is reduced due to the distance between the wires. 

http://www.nemasurge.org/faqs/

Rich  


From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 1:40 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details


John,
It seems to me that TC 108 documents really devise surge protection 
component tests rather that complete equipment tests and so miss some hidden 
field gotchas. 

I with Richards point about surge protection, for me the concern is the surge 
current being diverted into the PE system creating local PE surge differential 
voltage rises.
Multi-service surge protective devices (MSPDs) - all in one surge protection 
(mitigation actually) - can cause problems here by transferring a surge on one 
service, say AC mains, to another service e.g. telephone service, because that 
service feed offers a better path for the diverted surge current than the PE 
connection. 
Equipment connected to the protected output of the MSPD should survive the 
surge, but equipment connected on the unprotected side may suffer due to the 
unexpected diverted surge. Solution, put and MSPD on every bit of equipment. 
Looks like a win-win situation for MSPD manufacturers.

 
Regards,
Mick Maytum
Safety and Telecom
Standards
mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com
Ictsp-essays.info

-- Original Message --
From: "John Woodgate" <mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Sent: 16/09/2017 08:04:59
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

I agree, but doesn't that also apply to surge-suppression built into equipment? 
 Should we stop requiring surge immunity testing on equipment?
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/ J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
 
UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty
 

-

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formats), large files, etc.
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<mailto:emc-

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Ralph McDiarmid]

While I agree that an SPD at the service entrance seems to be the way to 
suppress surges resulting from direct/near/far lightning strokes, ANSI C62.4.1 
writes about switching transients on circuits which cause oscillatory surges on 
the mains.  SPD at service entrance might be less effective for those.  The 
ANSI standard seems a very good summary of what is a complex topic.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details


I believe the principal culprit is the extreme magnetic field that surrounds 
the conductors when the surge protector operates rather than the current in the 
PE conductor.  This field can generate high voltages in adjacent and nearby 
low-voltage conductors such as telephone and data cables.  Think air-core 
transformer.  

If the surge protector is at the service entrance, then the high current is in 
the electricity supplier wires, and the coupling to telephone, cable, and data 
cables is reduced due to the distance between the wires. 

http://www.nemasurge.org/faqs/

Rich  


From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 1:40 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details


John,
    It seems to me that TC 108 documents really devise surge protection 
component tests rather that complete equipment tests and so miss some hidden 
field gotchas. 

I with Richards point about surge protection, for me the concern is the surge 
current being diverted into the PE system creating local PE surge differential 
voltage rises.
Multi-service surge protective devices (MSPDs) - all in one surge protection 
(mitigation actually) - can cause problems here by transferring a surge on one 
service, say AC mains, to another service e.g. telephone service, because that 
service feed offers a better path for the diverted surge current than the PE 
connection. 
Equipment connected to the protected output of the MSPD should survive the 
surge, but equipment connected on the unprotected side may suffer due to the 
unexpected diverted surge. Solution, put and MSPD on every bit of equipment. 
Looks like a win-win situation for MSPD manufacturers.

 
Regards,
Mick Maytum
Safety and Telecom
Standards
mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com
Ictsp-essays.info

-- Original Message --
From: "John Woodgate" <mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Sent: 16/09/2017 08:04:59
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

I agree, but doesn't that also apply to surge-suppression built into equipment? 
 Should we stop requiring surge immunity testing on equipment?
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/ J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
 
UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty
 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>
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<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Ralph McDiarmid]

Pardon me, the correct reference is ANSI C62.41.1  (finger trouble on keyboard)

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid 
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 8:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details

While I agree that an SPD at the service entrance seems to be the way to 
suppress surges resulting from direct/near/far lightning strokes, ANSI C62.4.1 
writes about switching transients on circuits which cause oscillatory surges on 
the mains.  SPD at service entrance might be less effective for those.  The 
ANSI standard seems a very good summary of what is a complex topic.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details


I believe the principal culprit is the extreme magnetic field that surrounds 
the conductors when the surge protector operates rather than the current in the 
PE conductor.  This field can generate high voltages in adjacent and nearby 
low-voltage conductors such as telephone and data cables.  Think air-core 
transformer.  

If the surge protector is at the service entrance, then the high current is in 
the electricity supplier wires, and the coupling to telephone, cable, and data 
cables is reduced due to the distance between the wires. 

http://www.nemasurge.org/faqs/

Rich  


From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 1:40 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details


John,
    It seems to me that TC 108 documents really devise surge protection 
component tests rather that complete equipment tests and so miss some hidden 
field gotchas. 

I with Richards point about surge protection, for me the concern is the surge 
current being diverted into the PE system creating local PE surge differential 
voltage rises.
Multi-service surge protective devices (MSPDs) - all in one surge protection 
(mitigation actually) - can cause problems here by transferring a surge on one 
service, say AC mains, to another service e.g. telephone service, because that 
service feed offers a better path for the diverted surge current than the PE 
connection. 
Equipment connected to the protected output of the MSPD should survive the 
surge, but equipment connected on the unprotected side may suffer due to the 
unexpected diverted surge. Solution, put and MSPD on every bit of equipment. 
Looks like a win-win situation for MSPD manufacturers.

 
Regards,
Mick Maytum
Safety and Telecom
Standards
mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com
Ictsp-essays.info

-- Original Message --
From: "John Woodgate" <mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Sent: 16/09/2017 08:04:59
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

I agree, but doesn't that also apply to surge-suppression built into equipment? 
 Should we stop requiring surge immunity testing on equipment?
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/ J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
 
UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty
 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
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David Heald <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> 

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<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.i

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Richard Nute]

 

I believe the principal culprit is the extreme magnetic field that surrounds 
the conductors when the surge protector operates rather than the current in the 
PE conductor.  This field can generate high voltages in adjacent and nearby 
low-voltage conductors such as telephone and data cables.  Think air-core 
transformer.  

 

If the surge protector is at the service entrance, then the high current is in 
the electricity supplier wires, and the coupling to telephone, cable, and data 
cables is reduced due to the distance between the wires. 

 

http://www.nemasurge.org/faqs/

 

Rich  

 

 

From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 1:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

 

 

John,

It seems to me that TC 108 documents really devise surge protection 
component tests rather that complete equipment tests and so miss some hidden 
field gotchas. 

 

I with Richards point about surge protection, for me the concern is the surge 
current being diverted into the PE system creating local PE surge differential 
voltage rises.

Multi-service surge protective devices (MSPDs) - all in one surge protection 
(mitigation actually) - can cause problems here by transferring a surge on one 
service, say AC mains, to another service e.g. telephone service, because that 
service feed offers a better path for the diverted surge current than the PE 
connection. 

Equipment connected to the protected output of the MSPD should survive the 
surge, but equipment connected on the unprotected side may suffer due to the 
unexpected diverted surge. Solution, put and MSPD on every bit of equipment. 
Looks like a win-win situation for MSPD manufacturers.

 


   
<https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/MFofr_tNQCXwgtKy4pOGltrWboeOg0trIAQ09WljehD6kkUvW8SehXbZML9-oMSzaVhU8IEwYspmAGD0dS3oOFpWt2UFmpyfF4ypySLi1XKPXOtDDp7JGfCs0IPXxH2j6mPXQA=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.ictsp-essays.info/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/ITU-ASSOCIATE-BLUE.png>
 

Regards,

Mick Maytum

Safety and Telecom
Standards

 <mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com> mjmay...@gmail.com

Ictsp-essays.info

 

-- Original Message --

From: "John Woodgate" < <mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com> jmw1...@btinternet.com>

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org> EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org

Sent: 16/09/2017 08:04:59

Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

I agree, but doesn't that also apply to surge-suppression built into equipment? 
 Should we stop requiring surge immunity testing on equipment?

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only

 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England

 

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

 

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < 
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:  
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at  
<http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:  <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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-

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Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Richard Nute]

 

For the surge protection schemes that I am familiar with, there is no protected 
side or unprotected side.  One surge protection device will “protect” both 
upstream and downstream from the device.  One per branch circuit (North America 
terminology) will “protect” the entire branch, and much of the other branches.

 

Rich 

 

From: mickm [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 1:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

 

 

John,

It seems to me that TC 108 documents really devise surge protection 
component tests rather that complete equipment tests and so miss some hidden 
field gotchas. 

 

I with Richards point about surge protection, for me the concern is the surge 
current being diverted into the PE system creating local PE surge differential 
voltage rises.

Multi-service surge protective devices (MSPDs) - all in one surge protection 
(mitigation actually) - can cause problems here by transferring a surge on one 
service, say AC mains, to another service e.g. telephone service, because that 
service feed offers a better path for the diverted surge current than the PE 
connection. 

Equipment connected to the protected output of the MSPD should survive the 
surge, but equipment connected on the unprotected side may suffer due to the 
unexpected diverted surge. Solution, put and MSPD on every bit of equipment. 
Looks like a win-win situation for MSPD manufacturers.

 


   
<https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/MFofr_tNQCXwgtKy4pOGltrWboeOg0trIAQ09WljehD6kkUvW8SehXbZML9-oMSzaVhU8IEwYspmAGD0dS3oOFpWt2UFmpyfF4ypySLi1XKPXOtDDp7JGfCs0IPXxH2j6mPXQA=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.ictsp-essays.info/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/ITU-ASSOCIATE-BLUE.png>
 

Regards,

Mick Maytum

Safety and Telecom
Standards

 <mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com> mjmay...@gmail.com

Ictsp-essays.info

 

-- Original Message --

From: "John Woodgate" < <mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com> jmw1...@btinternet.com>

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org> EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org

Sent: 16/09/2017 08:04:59

Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

I agree, but doesn't that also apply to surge-suppression built into equipment? 
 Should we stop requiring surge immunity testing on equipment?

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only

 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England

 

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

 

 

-


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<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> emc-p...@ieee.org>

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at  
<http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:  <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] power strip details

[John Woodgate]

I agree, but doesn't that also apply to surge-suppression built into
equipment?  Should we stop requiring surge immunity testing on equipment?
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty
 
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 10:56 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
 
 
In my opinion, surge suppression in a power strip or in a product may
protect the local environment from overvoltage, but may create additional
overvoltages elsewhere on the system.  
 
Many surge suppression techniques place a momentary short-circuit on the
mains.  So, the local environment is near zero voltage for the duration of
the overvoltage incident.  But, the wires of the source constitute
inductance.  For the duration of the incident, the magnetic field
surrounding the supply wires collapses, and the voltage at the other end of
the inductance increases sharply.  Voila!  Other equipment, at a distance
from the surge suppressor, is subject to overvoltage damage.
 
Surge suppression is the domain of the electricity suppliers.  And they are
good at it!
 
In the USA, the domestic service entrance will flash over at 6 kV.  So,
households should see no more than 6 kV overvoltages.  
 
Rich
 
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 9:15 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
 
John,
 
I think surge suppression on power strips is more of a Marketing Gimmick
than anything. We all know that in a real world surge event, the device that
fires first will take the brunt of the hit, and may not survive a second
hit. Power strips have become a throw-away item but maybe it is better than
nothing. 
 
The built in surge suppression in your $3000 computer will easily protect
your $5 power strip. But your computer may not survive more than one hit. 
 
The Other Brian
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 9:10 AM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details
 
Is this surge suppression a) effective, b) necessary? I have seen comments
that suggest 'No' for both a) and b).
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
-

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Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

There is free view only access to the NFPA standards on the web site. 
http://www.nfpa.org/nec/about-the-nec/free-online-access-to-the-nec-and-other-electrical-standards
"Free online access to the NEC(r) and other electrical standards
NFPA delivers free online access to all NFPA standards to enhance public safety 
and to serve the public's increasing interest in technical information"

You have to register for a free profile to get access.  Go to 
http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70
 select Free Access, select the edition, login when prompted unless you are 
already logged in or you can register at that point.  They de-focus the image a 
bit for the free access and you have to page through it using the reader the 
pops up so it encourages people to buy the standard if using it a lot.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 6:34 PM
To: Nyffenegger, Dave; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details

 
Only codes have free access.  Couldn't find the handbook in free access.

Rich

-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 1:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Free access
http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-code
s-and-standards/detail?code=70 

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:31 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

I invite you to also read the Preface in the NEC 2014 Handbook.  It provides an 
interesting history.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
 



-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 12:42 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid <ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>;
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details


"Apparently, the NEC 'code' was derived originally from the IEC."

Not according to Mike Holt.  See:

http://www.mikeholt.com/nec-history-and-purpose.php

Rich





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Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Richard Nute]

 
Only codes have free access.  Couldn't find the handbook in free access.

Rich

-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 1:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Free access 
http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-code
s-and-standards/detail?code=70 

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:31 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

I invite you to also read the Preface in the NEC 2014 Handbook.  It provides
an interesting history.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
 



-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 12:42 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid <ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>;
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details


"Apparently, the NEC 'code' was derived originally from the IEC."

Not according to Mike Holt.  See:

http://www.mikeholt.com/nec-history-and-purpose.php

Rich





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Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Well I wouldn't say all electricity suppliers are good at it.  In the Caribbean 
islands where the power grid consists of one power plant with a few generators 
and a handful of main distribution feeders the power quality is terrible with 
surges.  Random short and long duration power outages are a frequent 
occurrence.  Electronic equipment does last long their without using a lot of 
supplementary surge suppressors on everything  from appliances to TVs.

-Dave

From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:56 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details


In my opinion, surge suppression in a power strip or in a product may protect 
the local environment from overvoltage, but may create additional overvoltages 
elsewhere on the system.

Many surge suppression techniques place a momentary short-circuit on the mains. 
 So, the local environment is near zero voltage for the duration of the 
overvoltage incident.  But, the wires of the source constitute inductance.  For 
the duration of the incident, the magnetic field surrounding the supply wires 
collapses, and the voltage at the other end of the inductance increases 
sharply.  Voila!  Other equipment, at a distance from the surge suppressor, is 
subject to overvoltage damage.

Surge suppression is the domain of the electricity suppliers.  And they are 
good at it!

In the USA, the domestic service entrance will flash over at 6 kV.  So, 
households should see no more than 6 kV overvoltages.

Rich

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 9:15 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

John,

I think surge suppression on power strips is more of a Marketing Gimmick than 
anything. We all know that in a real world surge event, the device that fires 
first will take the brunt of the hit, and may not survive a second hit. Power 
strips have become a throw-away item but maybe it is better than nothing.

The built in surge suppression in your $3000 computer will easily protect your 
$5 power strip. But your computer may not survive more than one hit.

The Other Brian

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 9:10 AM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details

Is this surge suppression a) effective, b) necessary? I have seen comments that 
suggest 'No' for both a) and b).

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

-


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Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Free access 
http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70
 

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:31 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

I invite you to also read the Preface in the NEC 2014 Handbook.  It provides an 
interesting history.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
 



-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 12:42 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid <ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details


"Apparently, the NEC 'code' was derived originally from the IEC."

Not according to Mike Holt.  See:

http://www.mikeholt.com/nec-history-and-purpose.php

Rich





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Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Richard Nute]

 

In my opinion, surge suppression in a power strip or in a product may
protect the local environment from overvoltage, but may create additional
overvoltages elsewhere on the system.  

 

Many surge suppression techniques place a momentary short-circuit on the
mains.  So, the local environment is near zero voltage for the duration of
the overvoltage incident.  But, the wires of the source constitute
inductance.  For the duration of the incident, the magnetic field
surrounding the supply wires collapses, and the voltage at the other end of
the inductance increases sharply.  Voila!  Other equipment, at a distance
from the surge suppressor, is subject to overvoltage damage.

 

Surge suppression is the domain of the electricity suppliers.  And they are
good at it!

 

In the USA, the domestic service entrance will flash over at 6 kV.  So,
households should see no more than 6 kV overvoltages.  

 

Rich

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 9:15 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

John,

 

I think surge suppression on power strips is more of a Marketing Gimmick
than anything. We all know that in a real world surge event, the device that
fires first will take the brunt of the hit, and may not survive a second
hit. Power strips have become a throw-away item but maybe it is better than
nothing. 

 

The built in surge suppression in your $3000 computer will easily protect
your $5 power strip. But your computer may not survive more than one hit. 

 

The Other Brian

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 9:10 AM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details

 

Is this surge suppression a) effective, b) necessary? I have seen comments
that suggest 'No' for both a) and b).

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only

www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

 


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Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Ralph McDiarmid]

I invite you to also read the Preface in the NEC 2014 Handbook.  It provides an 
interesting history.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
 



-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 12:42 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid <ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details


"Apparently, the NEC 'code' was derived originally from the IEC."

Not according to Mike Holt.  See:

http://www.mikeholt.com/nec-history-and-purpose.php

Rich





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Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Ralph McDiarmid]

Yes, thanks Scott.  I recall reading that Square-D bulletin some time ago, but 
I’m still puzzled about how the “code” ended up with requirements for standard 
and 100% rated circuit breakers.  The IEC installation series of standards 
(60364 stuff) seems to have successfully avoided those peculiar requirements we 
find in the NEC.

Anyway, I've again drifted off topic and into a mini rant.  Sorry about that.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Scott Aldous [mailto:scottald...@google.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 11:00 AM
To: Ralph McDiarmid <ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

The NEC does allow 100% rated breakers, as long as they are Listed for this 
purpose and used inside a proper enclosure (such that operation is not outside 
the Listing test parameters). More information 
http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/Insulated%20Case%20Circuit%20Breakers/0600DB0101.pdf.
 In general, however, this has to be planned before initial construction as the 
downstream wiring must be sized appropriately.

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Ralph McDiarmid 
<mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com> wrote:
Probably reasonable to assume that very few household loads are drawing their 
rated current continuously.  Those few that are, likely don’t aggregate over 
12A on a 15A ‘branch’ circuit.  It seems to me that the NEC code writing panel 
made a big deal out of nothing, but I’d like to read a justification.  Someone 
must have written one.

If UL Lists a circuit breaker at 15A, then there are no ‘conditions of 
acceptability’ like those for a Recognized component, and so 15A should be just 
fine for > 3hours, otherwise the marking is misleading at best.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 6:35 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

The rating on a North American circuit breaker is not its trip current. It is 
the rated current. UL 489 requires circuit breakers to hold at their rated 
current. In fact, at normal room temperatures, UL 489 Listed circuit breaker 
should hold at 110% of its rated current. The calibrations are done at 135% and 
200% of the rated current. Because the circuit breakers are packed together in 
a panel, there is heating from adjacent breakers. It is assumed that a breaker 
is typically operating at an elevated temperature. The breakers typically have 
both magnetic and thermal trip mechanisms and there is some compensation for 
the heating in the breaker panel. A UL 489 Listed breaker used in isolation 
would actually hold at 135% of its rated load for a surprisingly long time. The 
trip curve for a North American breaker may be different from that of a 
European breaker. However, I think it is misleading to say that a North 
American breaker or fuse will trip at a lower current.

Let me return to Pete Perkin’s original query. North American power strips 
Listed to UL 1363 are considered temporary relocatable power taps. They are 
allowed to be listed for the full current of their plug. A power strip with a 
15 A plug can be rated 15 A and does not need to be derated to 12 A. They must 
be “relocatable” and are not allowed to be permanently affixed to structure. A 
permanently affixed power strip, such as one used in a rack in a datacenter, 
can’t be listed to UL 1363. A datacenter power strip will typically be UL 
60950-1 or UL 62368-1 Listed and will be rated 12 A.

NFPA 70, the U.S. National Electrical Code, only allows the continuous load to 
be 80% of the rating of the circuit. However, “continuous” is defined as 3 
hours or more. A temporary load can be rated for the full current of the 
circuit. Thus a hairdryer with a 15 A plug is allowed to pull 15 A, 1800 W. The 
assumption is that the hairdryer will not be used for more than 3 hours 
continuously.

Because a UL 1363 Listed power strip is considered a temporary power tap, it is 
considered an extension of the branch circuit and carries the branch circuit’s 
rating. A datacenter power strip is a load device and is fixed in place. That 
makes it a permanent load. It is known to be used for more than 3 hours and 
thus is rated for 80% of the branch rating. (Don’t complain to me about these 
rules. I didn’t make them up.) In the U.S., a UL 1363  “power strip” can only 
be provided with blind keyhole slots or spring clips. It isn’t permitted to 
have holes allowing it to be screwed or bolted in place.

To cause further confusion, there are also two types of circuit breakers. UL 
489 Listed Molded Case Circuit Breakers are “branch breakers”. UL 1363 Listed 
power strips with more than three outlets must have a “Supplementary 
Overcurrent Protector” which will be UL 

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Richard Nute]

"Apparently, the NEC 'code' was derived originally from the IEC."

Not according to Mike Holt.  See:

http://www.mikeholt.com/nec-history-and-purpose.php

Rich

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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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For policy questions, send mail to:
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David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Ralph McDiarmid]

The code actually writes about 125% for breaker rating versus continuous 
current.  And so, 80% of breaker rating for 'continuous loads'  (3 hours) in 
the NEC and CEC, unless the breaker is Listed for 100% of its rating.  
(210.20 in the 2014 NEC).  

I generally despise rules of thumb like this, but the rule goes way back in the 
code. Anybody know where it came from?  You won't find it in any part of IEC 
60364-4-43.   Apparently, the NEC 'code' was derived originally from the IEC.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 9:55 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

Esteemed colleagues,

    Here in North America a domestic or commercial multi-outlet 
power strip would be cord connected thru a duplex outlet protected by a 15A (or 
sometimes 20A) circuit breaker.  The max load allowed in the circuit by the US 
NEC would be (80% of 15A) 12A for the total load (or 80% of 20A) 16A on the 20A 
breaker.   Note that the US NEC requires that any device plugged into a duplex 
outlet must not use the full load capacity of the circuit - 20% must be left 
for the other outlet's load.  

    Trying to understand the loading basis for a Euro power strip.  
Is the usual protection a 10A breaker? And would the power strip be rated and 
evaluated at that load level?  What other considerations come into play here?  

    How about a UK power strip.   The usual protection is the 13A 
fuse in the power plug (altho smaller values seemed to be used also).  Would 
the power strip be rated and evaluated at that load level?  What other 
considerations come into play here.  

    For a Japanese power strip what is the normal breaker 
protection for the installed circuit?  What would be the max rated load for the 
power strip?  What other considerations come into play here also?  

    Looking forward to your replies on this issue.  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Scott Aldous]

The NEC does allow 100% rated breakers, as long as they are Listed for this
purpose and used inside a proper enclosure (such that operation is not
outside the Listing test parameters). More information here
<http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/Insulated%20Case%20Circuit%20Breakers/0600DB0101.pdf>.
In general, however, this has to be planned before initial construction as
the downstream wiring must be sized appropriately.

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Ralph McDiarmid <
ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com> wrote:

> Probably reasonable to assume that very few household loads are drawing
> their rated current continuously.  Those few that are, likely don’t
> aggregate over 12A on a 15A ‘branch’ circuit.  It seems to me that the NEC
> code writing panel made a big deal out of nothing, but I’d like to read a
> justification.  Someone must have written one.
>
> If UL Lists a circuit breaker at 15A, then there are no ‘conditions of
> acceptability’ like those for a Recognized component, and so 15A should be
> just fine for > 3hours, otherwise the marking is misleading at best.
>
> Ralph McDiarmid
> Product Compliance
> Engineering
> Solar Business
> Schneider Electric
>
>
> From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 6:35 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
>
> The rating on a North American circuit breaker is not its trip current. It
> is the rated current. UL 489 requires circuit breakers to hold at their
> rated current. In fact, at normal room temperatures, UL 489 Listed circuit
> breaker should hold at 110% of its rated current. The calibrations are done
> at 135% and 200% of the rated current. Because the circuit breakers are
> packed together in a panel, there is heating from adjacent breakers. It is
> assumed that a breaker is typically operating at an elevated temperature.
> The breakers typically have both magnetic and thermal trip mechanisms and
> there is some compensation for the heating in the breaker panel. A UL 489
> Listed breaker used in isolation would actually hold at 135% of its rated
> load for a surprisingly long time. The trip curve for a North American
> breaker may be different from that of a European breaker. However, I think
> it is misleading to say that a North American breaker or fuse will trip at
> a lower current.
>
> Let me return to Pete Perkin’s original query. North American power strips
> Listed to UL 1363 are considered temporary relocatable power taps. They are
> allowed to be listed for the full current of their plug. A power strip with
> a 15 A plug can be rated 15 A and does not need to be derated to 12 A. They
> must be “relocatable” and are not allowed to be permanently affixed to
> structure. A permanently affixed power strip, such as one used in a rack in
> a datacenter, can’t be listed to UL 1363. A datacenter power strip will
> typically be UL 60950-1 or UL 62368-1 Listed and will be rated 12 A.
>
> NFPA 70, the U.S. National Electrical Code, only allows the continuous
> load to be 80% of the rating of the circuit. However, “continuous” is
> defined as 3 hours or more. A temporary load can be rated for the full
> current of the circuit. Thus a hairdryer with a 15 A plug is allowed to
> pull 15 A, 1800 W. The assumption is that the hairdryer will not be used
> for more than 3 hours continuously.
>
> Because a UL 1363 Listed power strip is considered a temporary power tap,
> it is considered an extension of the branch circuit and carries the branch
> circuit’s rating. A datacenter power strip is a load device and is fixed in
> place. That makes it a permanent load. It is known to be used for more than
> 3 hours and thus is rated for 80% of the branch rating. (Don’t complain to
> me about these rules. I didn’t make them up.) In the U.S., a UL 1363
>  “power strip” can only be provided with blind keyhole slots or spring
> clips. It isn’t permitted to have holes allowing it to be screwed or bolted
> in place.
>
> To cause further confusion, there are also two types of circuit breakers.
> UL 489 Listed Molded Case Circuit Breakers are “branch breakers”. UL 1363
> Listed power strips with more than three outlets must have a “Supplementary
> Overcurrent Protector” which will be UL 1077 Recognized. The UL 1077
> overcurrent protector is purely a thermal device and is intended to protect
> from low overloads that a magnetic UL 489 breaker may allow.
>
> Long ago, you could occasionally find UL 1363 Recognized power strips for
> rack mounting. They carried the full rating of the plug but could be
> mounted into an equipment rack. They were Recognized instead of Listed. One
> of the Conditions of Use was tha

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Ralph McDiarmid]

Probably reasonable to assume that very few household loads are drawing their 
rated current continuously.  Those few that are, likely don’t aggregate over 
12A on a 15A ‘branch’ circuit.  It seems to me that the NEC code writing panel 
made a big deal out of nothing, but I’d like to read a justification.  Someone 
must have written one.

If UL Lists a circuit breaker at 15A, then there are no ‘conditions of 
acceptability’ like those for a Recognized component, and so 15A should be just 
fine for > 3hours, otherwise the marking is misleading at best.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 6:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

The rating on a North American circuit breaker is not its trip current. It is 
the rated current. UL 489 requires circuit breakers to hold at their rated 
current. In fact, at normal room temperatures, UL 489 Listed circuit breaker 
should hold at 110% of its rated current. The calibrations are done at 135% and 
200% of the rated current. Because the circuit breakers are packed together in 
a panel, there is heating from adjacent breakers. It is assumed that a breaker 
is typically operating at an elevated temperature. The breakers typically have 
both magnetic and thermal trip mechanisms and there is some compensation for 
the heating in the breaker panel. A UL 489 Listed breaker used in isolation 
would actually hold at 135% of its rated load for a surprisingly long time. The 
trip curve for a North American breaker may be different from that of a 
European breaker. However, I think it is misleading to say that a North 
American breaker or fuse will trip at a lower current.

Let me return to Pete Perkin’s original query. North American power strips 
Listed to UL 1363 are considered temporary relocatable power taps. They are 
allowed to be listed for the full current of their plug. A power strip with a 
15 A plug can be rated 15 A and does not need to be derated to 12 A. They must 
be “relocatable” and are not allowed to be permanently affixed to structure. A 
permanently affixed power strip, such as one used in a rack in a datacenter, 
can’t be listed to UL 1363. A datacenter power strip will typically be UL 
60950-1 or UL 62368-1 Listed and will be rated 12 A.

NFPA 70, the U.S. National Electrical Code, only allows the continuous load to 
be 80% of the rating of the circuit. However, “continuous” is defined as 3 
hours or more. A temporary load can be rated for the full current of the 
circuit. Thus a hairdryer with a 15 A plug is allowed to pull 15 A, 1800 W. The 
assumption is that the hairdryer will not be used for more than 3 hours 
continuously. 

Because a UL 1363 Listed power strip is considered a temporary power tap, it is 
considered an extension of the branch circuit and carries the branch circuit’s 
rating. A datacenter power strip is a load device and is fixed in place. That 
makes it a permanent load. It is known to be used for more than 3 hours and 
thus is rated for 80% of the branch rating. (Don’t complain to me about these 
rules. I didn’t make them up.) In the U.S., a UL 1363  “power strip” can only 
be provided with blind keyhole slots or spring clips. It isn’t permitted to 
have holes allowing it to be screwed or bolted in place. 

To cause further confusion, there are also two types of circuit breakers. UL 
489 Listed Molded Case Circuit Breakers are “branch breakers”. UL 1363 Listed 
power strips with more than three outlets must have a “Supplementary 
Overcurrent Protector” which will be UL 1077 Recognized. The UL 1077 
overcurrent protector is purely a thermal device and is intended to protect 
from low overloads that a magnetic UL 489 breaker may allow.

Long ago, you could occasionally find UL 1363 Recognized power strips for rack 
mounting. They carried the full rating of the plug but could be mounted into an 
equipment rack. They were Recognized instead of Listed. One of the Conditions 
of Use was that they could only be used in racks on wheels, thereby making them 
relocatable, maintaining their status as a temporary power tap. This was a 
convoluted method of allowing rack mounted power strips, and it was used only 
as a stopgap measure until testing to UL 60950-1 became common for rack mounted 
power distribution.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

16A/250V is the normal running current/voltage rating of general purpose Schuko 
sockets and plugs in Europe (and sometimes elsewhere).

One of the main reasons for the differences in allowable currents from mains 
outlets (and thus from connec

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Kunde, Brian]

John,

I think surge suppression on power strips is more of a Marketing Gimmick than 
anything. We all know that in a real world surge event, the device that fires 
first will take the brunt of the hit, and may not survive a second hit. Power 
strips have become a throw-away item but maybe it is better than nothing.

The built in surge suppression in your $3000 computer will easily protect your 
$5 power strip. But your computer may not survive more than one hit.

The Other Brian

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 9:10 AM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] power strip details

Is this surge suppression a) effective, b) necessary? I have seen comments that 
suggest 'No' for both a) and b).

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 1:44 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

This is slightly off topic but you might find this interesting.  People are too 
smart for their own good.

When Yanks travel to Europe, they bring along their phone chargers, computer 
chargers, notepad chargers, razer chargers, etc., all of which will operate at 
either 115Vac or 230Vac these days. So, instead of buying a bunch of plug 
adaptors, the logical thing to do is to buy one plug adaptor, put it on a North 
American power strip, and plug all their Tech into the strip. Smart, right?

Well, most North American power strips have built in Surge suppression and as 
soon as they get to Europe and plug it in, BAM!! SMOKE!!!

I know two people who have done this.

Enjoy your weekend.

The Other Brian

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:29 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Yes, the marking on these is not well-formatted. The three numbers are 
*independent* limits, the 3680 W being 16 A at 230 V, but the strip could be 
used on supplies up to 250 V as long as neither of the other limits was 
exceeded.

Better would be 'Maximum ratings: 16 A, 250 V, 3680 W'

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

From: Don Gies [mailto:ddg...@verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 1:16 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Pete,

Before last year's TC108 meeting in Frankfurt, I purchased a German Schucko 
European Power Strip from Amazon.  It had 3 AC receptacles and 2 USB outputs.
 Its ratings are:
"Maximum Charge: 3680W,16A/250V~"

Don Gies
ddg...@verizon.net<mailto:ddg...@verizon.net>
(732) 207-7828

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Unlike the US/Canada (etc), there is no derating factor for UK mains wall 
outlets. A 13A wall outlet can be loaded at 13A, and a twin/duplex 13A outlet 
can be loaded at 13A per outlet because the "diversity factor" principle is 
applied, i.e. it is highly unlikely in practice that both 13A outlets will be 
actually be fully loaded at the same time!

Murphy's Law may however apply at times in that both outlets could 
simultaneously be loaded at 13A - and so it is to be hoped that the wall outlet 
in question is on a UK "ring main" circuit protected by a 32A breaker, and not 
a spur/radial/branch circuit protected by a 16A breaker!

For a power strip plugged into one of those outlets, there is a (generally, as 
John W said) a 13A fuse in the plug, and so the max cumulative continuous load 
for the sockets in the strip is also 13A - unless, of course, the mfr has 
decided to give it an overall lower current rating, fitted a lower-rated fuse 
AND marked the plug with that rating. BTW: I have also occasionally seen 7A 
fuses (the fuse standard is BS1362, but, AFAIK, that only shows a few 
"standard" ratings, and not some of those which are actually sold - such as 
those listed here http://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=plug%20top%20fuse)

I believe that the standard for such UK power strips is probably BS 
5733:2010+A1:2014 "General requirements for electrical accessories. 
Specification" - but don't have a copy and so can't comment in detail on what 
it requires.

John Allen
W.London, UK



From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: 15 September 2017 07:36
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Pete Perkins]

Ted,

 

Thanx for that comprehensive review.  Fits my general
experience; recounts some long forgotten details.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 6:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

The rating on a North American circuit breaker is not its trip current. It
is the rated current. UL 489 requires circuit breakers to hold at their
rated current. In fact, at normal room temperatures, UL 489 Listed circuit
breaker should hold at 110% of its rated current. The calibrations are done
at 135% and 200% of the rated current. Because the circuit breakers are
packed together in a panel, there is heating from adjacent breakers. It is
assumed that a breaker is typically operating at an elevated temperature.
The breakers typically have both magnetic and thermal trip mechanisms and
there is some compensation for the heating in the breaker panel. A UL 489
Listed breaker used in isolation would actually hold at 135% of its rated
load for a surprisingly long time. The trip curve for a North American
breaker may be different from that of a European breaker. However, I think
it is misleading to say that a North American breaker or fuse will trip at a
lower current.

 

Let me return to Pete Perkin's original query. North American power strips
Listed to UL 1363 are considered temporary relocatable power taps. They are
allowed to be listed for the full current of their plug. A power strip with
a 15 A plug can be rated 15 A and does not need to be derated to 12 A. They
must be "relocatable" and are not allowed to be permanently affixed to
structure. A permanently affixed power strip, such as one used in a rack in
a datacenter, can't be listed to UL 1363. A datacenter power strip will
typically be UL 60950-1 or UL 62368-1 Listed and will be rated 12 A.

 

NFPA 70, the U.S. National Electrical Code, only allows the continuous load
to be 80% of the rating of the circuit. However, "continuous" is defined as
3 hours or more. A temporary load can be rated for the full current of the
circuit. Thus a hairdryer with a 15 A plug is allowed to pull 15 A, 1800 W.
The assumption is that the hairdryer will not be used for more than 3 hours
continuously. 

 

Because a UL 1363 Listed power strip is considered a temporary power tap, it
is considered an extension of the branch circuit and carries the branch
circuit's rating. A datacenter power strip is a load device and is fixed in
place. That makes it a permanent load. It is known to be used for more than
3 hours and thus is rated for 80% of the branch rating. (Don't complain to
me about these rules. I didn't make them up.) In the U.S., a UL 1363  "power
strip" can only be provided with blind keyhole slots or spring clips. It
isn't permitted to have holes allowing it to be screwed or bolted in place. 

 

To cause further confusion, there are also two types of circuit breakers. UL
489 Listed Molded Case Circuit Breakers are "branch breakers". UL 1363
Listed power strips with more than three outlets must have a "Supplementary
Overcurrent Protector" which will be UL 1077 Recognized. The UL 1077
overcurrent protector is purely a thermal device and is intended to protect
from low overloads that a magnetic UL 489 breaker may allow.

 

Long ago, you could occasionally find UL 1363 Recognized power strips for
rack mounting. They carried the full rating of the plug but could be mounted
into an equipment rack. They were Recognized instead of Listed. One of the
Conditions of Use was that they could only be used in racks on wheels,
thereby making them relocatable, maintaining their status as a temporary
power tap. This was a convoluted method of allowing rack mounted power
strips, and it was used only as a stopgap measure until testing to UL
60950-1 became common for rack mounted power distribution.

 

Ted Eckert

Microsoft Corporation

 

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer.

 

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

16A/250V is the normal running current/voltage rating of general purpose
Schuko sockets and plugs in Europe (and sometimes elsewhere).

 

One of the main reasons for the differences in allowable currents from mains
outlets (and thus from connected power strips) is the differences in the
characteristics of the protective breakers and fuses between those used in
Europe and those used in N.America.

 

General purpose European /IEC breakers

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Pete Perkins]

John,

 

Weird is normal here; we're just trying to understand the
weird rules on the other side of the pond.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 7:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

Ted

 

Thanks for correcting me on breaker characteristics - I was also thinking
afterwards that the issues are also related to variations in trip
time/current characteristics.

 

An, the NEC (and I assume the CEC is similar) rules on power strips seem
just "weird" to me! :)

 

From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: 15 September 2017 14:35
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

The rating on a North American circuit breaker is not its trip current. It
is the rated current. UL 489 requires circuit breakers to hold at their
rated current. In fact, at normal room temperatures, UL 489 Listed circuit
breaker should hold at 110% of its rated current. The calibrations are done
at 135% and 200% of the rated current. Because the circuit breakers are
packed together in a panel, there is heating from adjacent breakers. It is
assumed that a breaker is typically operating at an elevated temperature.
The breakers typically have both magnetic and thermal trip mechanisms and
there is some compensation for the heating in the breaker panel. A UL 489
Listed breaker used in isolation would actually hold at 135% of its rated
load for a surprisingly long time. The trip curve for a North American
breaker may be different from that of a European breaker. However, I think
it is misleading to say that a North American breaker or fuse will trip at a
lower current.

 

Let me return to Pete Perkin's original query. North American power strips
Listed to UL 1363 are considered temporary relocatable power taps. They are
allowed to be listed for the full current of their plug. A power strip with
a 15 A plug can be rated 15 A and does not need to be derated to 12 A. They
must be "relocatable" and are not allowed to be permanently affixed to
structure. A permanently affixed power strip, such as one used in a rack in
a datacenter, can't be listed to UL 1363. A datacenter power strip will
typically be UL 60950-1 or UL 62368-1 Listed and will be rated 12 A.

 

NFPA 70, the U.S. National Electrical Code, only allows the continuous load
to be 80% of the rating of the circuit. However, "continuous" is defined as
3 hours or more. A temporary load can be rated for the full current of the
circuit. Thus a hairdryer with a 15 A plug is allowed to pull 15 A, 1800 W.
The assumption is that the hairdryer will not be used for more than 3 hours
continuously. 

 

Because a UL 1363 Listed power strip is considered a temporary power tap, it
is considered an extension of the branch circuit and carries the branch
circuit's rating. A datacenter power strip is a load device and is fixed in
place. That makes it a permanent load. It is known to be used for more than
3 hours and thus is rated for 80% of the branch rating. (Don't complain to
me about these rules. I didn't make them up.) In the U.S., a UL 1363  "power
strip" can only be provided with blind keyhole slots or spring clips. It
isn't permitted to have holes allowing it to be screwed or bolted in place. 

 

To cause further confusion, there are also two types of circuit breakers. UL
489 Listed Molded Case Circuit Breakers are "branch breakers". UL 1363
Listed power strips with more than three outlets must have a "Supplementary
Overcurrent Protector" which will be UL 1077 Recognized. The UL 1077
overcurrent protector is purely a thermal device and is intended to protect
from low overloads that a magnetic UL 489 breaker may allow.

 

Long ago, you could occasionally find UL 1363 Recognized power strips for
rack mounting. They carried the full rating of the plug but could be mounted
into an equipment rack. They were Recognized instead of Listed. One of the
Conditions of Use was that they could only be used in racks on wheels,
thereby making them relocatable, maintaining their status as a temporary
power tap. This was a convoluted method of allowing rack mounted power
strips, and it was used only as a stopgap measure until testing to UL
60950-1 became common for rack mounted power distribution.

 

Ted Eckert

Microsoft Corporation

 

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer.

 

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEE

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[John Allen]

Re para 2 - the NA 115v nominal surge protectors almost certainly aren't
voltage rated for 230V operation, and the inrush currents will be around
double => as you say, "BAM!!, SMOKE!!!" J

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: 15 September 2017 13:44
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

This is slightly off topic but you might find this interesting.  People are
too smart for their own good.

 

When Yanks travel to Europe, they bring along their phone chargers, computer
chargers, notepad chargers, razer chargers, etc., all of which will operate
at either 115Vac or 230Vac these days. So, instead of buying a bunch of plug
adaptors, the logical thing to do is to buy one plug adaptor, put it on a
North American power strip, and plug all their Tech into the strip. Smart,
right?

 

Well, most North American power strips have built in Surge suppression and
as soon as they get to Europe and plug it in, BAM!! SMOKE!!!

 

I know two people who have done this.

 

Enjoy your weekend.

 

The Other Brian

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:29 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

Yes, the marking on these is not well-formatted. The three numbers are
*independent* limits, the 3680 W being 16 A at 230 V, but the strip could be
used on supplies up to 250 V as long as neither of the other limits was
exceeded.

 

Better would be 'Maximum ratings: 16 A, 250 V, 3680 W'

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only

www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

 

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

 

From: Don Gies [mailto:ddg...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 1:16 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

Pete,

 

Before last year's TC108 meeting in Frankfurt, I purchased a German Schucko
European Power Strip from Amazon.  It had 3 AC receptacles and 2 USB
outputs. 

 Its ratings are:

"Maximum Charge: 3680W,16A/250V~"

 

Don Gies

 <mailto:ddg...@verizon.net> ddg...@verizon.net

(732) 207-7828

 

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

Unlike the US/Canada (etc), there is no derating factor for UK mains wall
outlets. A 13A wall outlet can be loaded at 13A, and a twin/duplex 13A
outlet can be loaded at 13A per outlet because the "diversity factor"
principle is applied, i.e. it is highly unlikely in practice that both 13A
outlets will be actually be fully loaded at the same time! 

 

Murphy's Law may however apply at times in that both outlets could
simultaneously be loaded at 13A - and so it is to be hoped that the wall
outlet in question is on a UK "ring main" circuit protected by a 32A
breaker, and not a spur/radial/branch circuit protected by a 16A breaker!

 

For a power strip plugged into one of those outlets, there is a (generally,
as John W said) a 13A fuse in the plug, and so the max cumulative continuous
load for the sockets in the strip is also 13A - unless, of course, the mfr
has decided to give it an overall lower current rating, fitted a lower-rated
fuse AND marked the plug with that rating. BTW: I have also occasionally
seen 7A fuses (the fuse standard is BS1362, but, AFAIK, that only shows a
few "standard" ratings, and not some of those which are actually sold - such
as those listed here http://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=plug%20top%20fuse)

 

I believe that the standard for such UK power strips is probably BS
5733:2010+A1:2014 "General requirements for electrical accessories.
Specification" - but don't have a copy and so can't comment in detail on
what it requires.

 

John Allen

W.London, UK

 

 

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 15 September 2017 07:36
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

UK household power strips are rated at 13 A and include a 13 A fuse. Other
fuses, normally used in plugs, are 3 A, 5 A and 10 A. I have seen a 1 A
fuse, but they are very rare.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only

www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

 

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

 

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

 

Esteemed colleagues,

 

Here in North America a domestic or commercial multi-outlet
power strip would be cord connected thru a duplex outlet protected by a 15A
(or sometimes 20A) circuit breaker.  The max load allowed in the circuit by
the US NEC would be (80% of 15A) 12A 

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[John Allen]

Yup - decent quality "dumb" 115V adapters and similar will work on 230/240V
- for years my AV system power distribution was via NEMA 5-15R duplex
outlets and 5-15P cord sets because we had a lot of those "going spare" at
work, and I never had any problems (except remembering that "Live" &
"Neutral" connections on the US sockets & plugs are the opposite way around
to those on the UK BS 1363 sockets & plugs! J)

 

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: 15 September 2017 14:07
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

Yeah, I just bring my little dumb 1 to 3 adapter.  Even that's not really
needed because everything but the laptop is USB which can plug into the
laptop with its umpteen USB ports.

-Dave

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:44 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

This is slightly off topic but you might find this interesting.  People are
too smart for their own good.

 

When Yanks travel to Europe, they bring along their phone chargers, computer
chargers, notepad chargers, razer chargers, etc., all of which will operate
at either 115Vac or 230Vac these days. So, instead of buying a bunch of plug
adaptors, the logical thing to do is to buy one plug adaptor, put it on a
North American power strip, and plug all their Tech into the strip. Smart,
right?

 

Well, most North American power strips have built in Surge suppression and
as soon as they get to Europe and plug it in, BAM!! SMOKE!!!

 

I know two people who have done this.

 

Enjoy your weekend.

 

The Other Brian

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:29 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

Yes, the marking on these is not well-formatted. The three numbers are
*independent* limits, the 3680 W being 16 A at 230 V, but the strip could be
used on supplies up to 250 V as long as neither of the other limits was
exceeded.

 

Better would be 'Maximum ratings: 16 A, 250 V, 3680 W'

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only

www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

 

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

 

From: Don Gies [mailto:ddg...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 1:16 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

Pete,

 

Before last year's TC108 meeting in Frankfurt, I purchased a German Schucko
European Power Strip from Amazon.  It had 3 AC receptacles and 2 USB
outputs. 

 Its ratings are:

"Maximum Charge: 3680W,16A/250V~"

 

Don Gies

 <mailto:ddg...@verizon.net> ddg...@verizon.net

(732) 207-7828

 

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

Unlike the US/Canada (etc), there is no derating factor for UK mains wall
outlets. A 13A wall outlet can be loaded at 13A, and a twin/duplex 13A
outlet can be loaded at 13A per outlet because the "diversity factor"
principle is applied, i.e. it is highly unlikely in practice that both 13A
outlets will be actually be fully loaded at the same time! 

 

Murphy's Law may however apply at times in that both outlets could
simultaneously be loaded at 13A - and so it is to be hoped that the wall
outlet in question is on a UK "ring main" circuit protected by a 32A
breaker, and not a spur/radial/branch circuit protected by a 16A breaker!

 

For a power strip plugged into one of those outlets, there is a (generally,
as John W said) a 13A fuse in the plug, and so the max cumulative continuous
load for the sockets in the strip is also 13A - unless, of course, the mfr
has decided to give it an overall lower current rating, fitted a lower-rated
fuse AND marked the plug with that rating. BTW: I have also occasionally
seen 7A fuses (the fuse standard is BS1362, but, AFAIK, that only shows a
few "standard" ratings, and not some of those which are actually sold - such
as those listed here http://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=plug%20top%20fuse)

 

I believe that the standard for such UK power strips is probably BS
5733:2010+A1:2014 "General requirements for electrical accessories.
Specification" - but don't have a copy and so can't comment in detail on
what it requires.

 

John Allen

W.London, UK

 

 

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 15 September 2017 07:36
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

UK household power strips are rated at 13 A and include a 13 A fuse. Other
fuses, normally used in plugs, are 3 A, 5 A and 10 A. I have seen a 1 A
fuse, but they are very rare.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opini

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[John Allen]

Ted

 

Thanks for correcting me on breaker characteristics - I was also thinking
afterwards that the issues are also related to variations in trip
time/current characteristics.

 

An, the NEC (and I assume the CEC is similar) rules on power strips seem
just "weird" to me! J

 

From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: 15 September 2017 14:35
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

The rating on a North American circuit breaker is not its trip current. It
is the rated current. UL 489 requires circuit breakers to hold at their
rated current. In fact, at normal room temperatures, UL 489 Listed circuit
breaker should hold at 110% of its rated current. The calibrations are done
at 135% and 200% of the rated current. Because the circuit breakers are
packed together in a panel, there is heating from adjacent breakers. It is
assumed that a breaker is typically operating at an elevated temperature.
The breakers typically have both magnetic and thermal trip mechanisms and
there is some compensation for the heating in the breaker panel. A UL 489
Listed breaker used in isolation would actually hold at 135% of its rated
load for a surprisingly long time. The trip curve for a North American
breaker may be different from that of a European breaker. However, I think
it is misleading to say that a North American breaker or fuse will trip at a
lower current.

 

Let me return to Pete Perkin's original query. North American power strips
Listed to UL 1363 are considered temporary relocatable power taps. They are
allowed to be listed for the full current of their plug. A power strip with
a 15 A plug can be rated 15 A and does not need to be derated to 12 A. They
must be "relocatable" and are not allowed to be permanently affixed to
structure. A permanently affixed power strip, such as one used in a rack in
a datacenter, can't be listed to UL 1363. A datacenter power strip will
typically be UL 60950-1 or UL 62368-1 Listed and will be rated 12 A.

 

NFPA 70, the U.S. National Electrical Code, only allows the continuous load
to be 80% of the rating of the circuit. However, "continuous" is defined as
3 hours or more. A temporary load can be rated for the full current of the
circuit. Thus a hairdryer with a 15 A plug is allowed to pull 15 A, 1800 W.
The assumption is that the hairdryer will not be used for more than 3 hours
continuously. 

 

Because a UL 1363 Listed power strip is considered a temporary power tap, it
is considered an extension of the branch circuit and carries the branch
circuit's rating. A datacenter power strip is a load device and is fixed in
place. That makes it a permanent load. It is known to be used for more than
3 hours and thus is rated for 80% of the branch rating. (Don't complain to
me about these rules. I didn't make them up.) In the U.S., a UL 1363  "power
strip" can only be provided with blind keyhole slots or spring clips. It
isn't permitted to have holes allowing it to be screwed or bolted in place. 

 

To cause further confusion, there are also two types of circuit breakers. UL
489 Listed Molded Case Circuit Breakers are "branch breakers". UL 1363
Listed power strips with more than three outlets must have a "Supplementary
Overcurrent Protector" which will be UL 1077 Recognized. The UL 1077
overcurrent protector is purely a thermal device and is intended to protect
from low overloads that a magnetic UL 489 breaker may allow.

 

Long ago, you could occasionally find UL 1363 Recognized power strips for
rack mounting. They carried the full rating of the plug but could be mounted
into an equipment rack. They were Recognized instead of Listed. One of the
Conditions of Use was that they could only be used in racks on wheels,
thereby making them relocatable, maintaining their status as a temporary
power tap. This was a convoluted method of allowing rack mounted power
strips, and it was used only as a stopgap measure until testing to UL
60950-1 became common for rack mounted power distribution.

 

Ted Eckert

Microsoft Corporation

 

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer.

 

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

16A/250V is the normal running current/voltage rating of general purpose
Schuko sockets and plugs in Europe (and sometimes elsewhere).

 

One of the main reasons for the differences in allowable currents from mains
outlets (and thus from connected power strips) is the differences in the
characteristics of the protective breakers and fuses between those used in
Europe and those used in N.America.

 

General purpose European /IEC breakers/fuses are rated for continuous
running at the marked rating, whereas on the equivalent N.American
breakers/fuses the marked rating is

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Ted Eckert]

The rating on a North American circuit breaker is not its trip current. It is 
the rated current. UL 489 requires circuit breakers to hold at their rated 
current. In fact, at normal room temperatures, UL 489 Listed circuit breaker 
should hold at 110% of its rated current. The calibrations are done at 135% and 
200% of the rated current. Because the circuit breakers are packed together in 
a panel, there is heating from adjacent breakers. It is assumed that a breaker 
is typically operating at an elevated temperature. The breakers typically have 
both magnetic and thermal trip mechanisms and there is some compensation for 
the heating in the breaker panel. A UL 489 Listed breaker used in isolation 
would actually hold at 135% of its rated load for a surprisingly long time. The 
trip curve for a North American breaker may be different from that of a 
European breaker. However, I think it is misleading to say that a North 
American breaker or fuse will trip at a lower current.

Let me return to Pete Perkin's original query. North American power strips 
Listed to UL 1363 are considered temporary relocatable power taps. They are 
allowed to be listed for the full current of their plug. A power strip with a 
15 A plug can be rated 15 A and does not need to be derated to 12 A. They must 
be "relocatable" and are not allowed to be permanently affixed to structure. A 
permanently affixed power strip, such as one used in a rack in a datacenter, 
can't be listed to UL 1363. A datacenter power strip will typically be UL 
60950-1 or UL 62368-1 Listed and will be rated 12 A.

NFPA 70, the U.S. National Electrical Code, only allows the continuous load to 
be 80% of the rating of the circuit. However, "continuous" is defined as 3 
hours or more. A temporary load can be rated for the full current of the 
circuit. Thus a hairdryer with a 15 A plug is allowed to pull 15 A, 1800 W. The 
assumption is that the hairdryer will not be used for more than 3 hours 
continuously.

Because a UL 1363 Listed power strip is considered a temporary power tap, it is 
considered an extension of the branch circuit and carries the branch circuit's 
rating. A datacenter power strip is a load device and is fixed in place. That 
makes it a permanent load. It is known to be used for more than 3 hours and 
thus is rated for 80% of the branch rating. (Don't complain to me about these 
rules. I didn't make them up.) In the U.S., a UL 1363  "power strip" can only 
be provided with blind keyhole slots or spring clips. It isn't permitted to 
have holes allowing it to be screwed or bolted in place.

To cause further confusion, there are also two types of circuit breakers. UL 
489 Listed Molded Case Circuit Breakers are "branch breakers". UL 1363 Listed 
power strips with more than three outlets must have a "Supplementary 
Overcurrent Protector" which will be UL 1077 Recognized. The UL 1077 
overcurrent protector is purely a thermal device and is intended to protect 
from low overloads that a magnetic UL 489 breaker may allow.

Long ago, you could occasionally find UL 1363 Recognized power strips for rack 
mounting. They carried the full rating of the plug but could be mounted into an 
equipment rack. They were Recognized instead of Listed. One of the Conditions 
of Use was that they could only be used in racks on wheels, thereby making them 
relocatable, maintaining their status as a temporary power tap. This was a 
convoluted method of allowing rack mounted power strips, and it was used only 
as a stopgap measure until testing to UL 60950-1 became common for rack mounted 
power distribution.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

16A/250V is the normal running current/voltage rating of general purpose Schuko 
sockets and plugs in Europe (and sometimes elsewhere).

One of the main reasons for the differences in allowable currents from mains 
outlets (and thus from connected power strips) is the differences in the 
characteristics of the protective breakers and fuses between those used in 
Europe and those used in N.America.

General purpose European /IEC breakers/fuses are rated for continuous running 
at the marked rating, whereas on the equivalent N.American breakers/fuses the 
marked rating is the trip/blow-current rating - thus (all other things being 
"equal") the protective device for a circuit protected by one of the latter 
will trip/blow at a lower current than one protected by a European/IEC device.

This essential difference can and does (encountered it many time :() cause 
considerable issues and confusion for designers when specifying the protective 
devices for equipment  which is to be used in both N.Ame

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Yeah, I just bring my little dumb 1 to 3 adapter.  Even that's not really 
needed because everything but the laptop is USB which can plug into the laptop 
with its umpteen USB ports.
-Dave

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:44 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

This is slightly off topic but you might find this interesting.  People are too 
smart for their own good.

When Yanks travel to Europe, they bring along their phone chargers, computer 
chargers, notepad chargers, razer chargers, etc., all of which will operate at 
either 115Vac or 230Vac these days. So, instead of buying a bunch of plug 
adaptors, the logical thing to do is to buy one plug adaptor, put it on a North 
American power strip, and plug all their Tech into the strip. Smart, right?

Well, most North American power strips have built in Surge suppression and as 
soon as they get to Europe and plug it in, BAM!! SMOKE!!!

I know two people who have done this.

Enjoy your weekend.

The Other Brian

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:29 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Yes, the marking on these is not well-formatted. The three numbers are 
*independent* limits, the 3680 W being 16 A at 230 V, but the strip could be 
used on supplies up to 250 V as long as neither of the other limits was 
exceeded.

Better would be 'Maximum ratings: 16 A, 250 V, 3680 W'

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

From: Don Gies [mailto:ddg...@verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 1:16 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Pete,

Before last year's TC108 meeting in Frankfurt, I purchased a German Schucko 
European Power Strip from Amazon.  It had 3 AC receptacles and 2 USB outputs.
 Its ratings are:
"Maximum Charge: 3680W,16A/250V~"

Don Gies
ddg...@verizon.net<mailto:ddg...@verizon.net>
(732) 207-7828

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Unlike the US/Canada (etc), there is no derating factor for UK mains wall 
outlets. A 13A wall outlet can be loaded at 13A, and a twin/duplex 13A outlet 
can be loaded at 13A per outlet because the "diversity factor" principle is 
applied, i.e. it is highly unlikely in practice that both 13A outlets will be 
actually be fully loaded at the same time!

Murphy's Law may however apply at times in that both outlets could 
simultaneously be loaded at 13A - and so it is to be hoped that the wall outlet 
in question is on a UK "ring main" circuit protected by a 32A breaker, and not 
a spur/radial/branch circuit protected by a 16A breaker!

For a power strip plugged into one of those outlets, there is a (generally, as 
John W said) a 13A fuse in the plug, and so the max cumulative continuous load 
for the sockets in the strip is also 13A - unless, of course, the mfr has 
decided to give it an overall lower current rating, fitted a lower-rated fuse 
AND marked the plug with that rating. BTW: I have also occasionally seen 7A 
fuses (the fuse standard is BS1362, but, AFAIK, that only shows a few 
"standard" ratings, and not some of those which are actually sold - such as 
those listed here http://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=plug%20top%20fuse)

I believe that the standard for such UK power strips is probably BS 
5733:2010+A1:2014 "General requirements for electrical accessories. 
Specification" - but don't have a copy and so can't comment in detail on what 
it requires.

John Allen
W.London, UK



From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: 15 September 2017 07:36
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

UK household power strips are rated at 13 A and include a 13 A fuse. Other 
fuses, normally used in plugs, are 3 A, 5 A and 10 A. I have seen a 1 A fuse, 
but they are very rare.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

Esteemed colleagues,

Here in North America a domestic or commercial multi-outlet 
power strip would be cord connected thru a duplex outlet protected by a 15A (or 
sometimes 20A) ci

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Kunde, Brian]

This is slightly off topic but you might find this interesting.  People are too 
smart for their own good.

When Yanks travel to Europe, they bring along their phone chargers, computer 
chargers, notepad chargers, razer chargers, etc., all of which will operate at 
either 115Vac or 230Vac these days. So, instead of buying a bunch of plug 
adaptors, the logical thing to do is to buy one plug adaptor, put it on a North 
American power strip, and plug all their Tech into the strip. Smart, right?

Well, most North American power strips have built in Surge suppression and as 
soon as they get to Europe and plug it in, BAM!! SMOKE!!!

I know two people who have done this.

Enjoy your weekend.

The Other Brian

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:29 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Yes, the marking on these is not well-formatted. The three numbers are 
*independent* limits, the 3680 W being 16 A at 230 V, but the strip could be 
used on supplies up to 250 V as long as neither of the other limits was 
exceeded.

Better would be 'Maximum ratings: 16 A, 250 V, 3680 W'

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

From: Don Gies [mailto:ddg...@verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 1:16 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Pete,

Before last year's TC108 meeting in Frankfurt, I purchased a German Schucko 
European Power Strip from Amazon.  It had 3 AC receptacles and 2 USB outputs.
 Its ratings are:
"Maximum Charge: 3680W,16A/250V~"

Don Gies
ddg...@verizon.net<mailto:ddg...@verizon.net>
(732) 207-7828

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

Unlike the US/Canada (etc), there is no derating factor for UK mains wall 
outlets. A 13A wall outlet can be loaded at 13A, and a twin/duplex 13A outlet 
can be loaded at 13A per outlet because the "diversity factor" principle is 
applied, i.e. it is highly unlikely in practice that both 13A outlets will be 
actually be fully loaded at the same time!

Murphy's Law may however apply at times in that both outlets could 
simultaneously be loaded at 13A - and so it is to be hoped that the wall outlet 
in question is on a UK "ring main" circuit protected by a 32A breaker, and not 
a spur/radial/branch circuit protected by a 16A breaker!

For a power strip plugged into one of those outlets, there is a (generally, as 
John W said) a 13A fuse in the plug, and so the max cumulative continuous load 
for the sockets in the strip is also 13A - unless, of course, the mfr has 
decided to give it an overall lower current rating, fitted a lower-rated fuse 
AND marked the plug with that rating. BTW: I have also occasionally seen 7A 
fuses (the fuse standard is BS1362, but, AFAIK, that only shows a few 
"standard" ratings, and not some of those which are actually sold - such as 
those listed here http://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=plug%20top%20fuse)

I believe that the standard for such UK power strips is probably BS 
5733:2010+A1:2014 "General requirements for electrical accessories. 
Specification" - but don't have a copy and so can't comment in detail on what 
it requires.

John Allen
W.London, UK



From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: 15 September 2017 07:36
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

UK household power strips are rated at 13 A and include a 13 A fuse. Other 
fuses, normally used in plugs, are 3 A, 5 A and 10 A. I have seen a 1 A fuse, 
but they are very rare.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

Esteemed colleagues,

Here in North America a domestic or commercial multi-outlet 
power strip would be cord connected thru a duplex outlet protected by a 15A (or 
sometimes 20A) circuit breaker.  The max load allowed in the circuit by the US 
NEC would be (80% of 15A) 12A for the total load (or 80% of 20A) 16A on the 20A 
breaker.   Note that the US NEC requires that any device plugged into a duplex 
outlet must not use the full load capacity of the circuit - 20% must be left 
for the other outlet's load.

Trying to 

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[John Allen]

16A/250V is the normal running current/voltage rating of general purpose
Schuko sockets and plugs in Europe (and sometimes elsewhere).

 

One of the main reasons for the differences in allowable currents from mains
outlets (and thus from connected power strips) is the differences in the
characteristics of the protective breakers and fuses between those used in
Europe and those used in N.America.

 

General purpose European /IEC breakers/fuses are rated for continuous
running at the marked rating, whereas on the equivalent N.American
breakers/fuses the marked rating is the trip/blow-current rating - thus (all
other things being "equal") the protective device for a circuit protected by
one of the latter will trip/blow at a lower current than one protected by a
European/IEC device.

 

This essential difference can and does (encountered it many time L) cause
considerable issues and confusion for designers when specifying the
protective devices for equipment  which is to be used in both N.America and
Europe (and obviously elsewhere) - then, of course, there is the related
issue that the relevant national certifications for such protective devices
are not (with the exception of a very few devices certified on both
continents) recognized on the "opposite" sides of "The Pond".

 

John Allen

W. London, UK

 

From: Don Gies [mailto:ddg...@verizon.net] 
Sent: 15 September 2017 13:16
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

Pete,

 

Before last year's TC108 meeting in Frankfurt, I purchased a German Schucko
European Power Strip from Amazon.  It had 3 AC receptacles and 2 USB
outputs. 

 Its ratings are:

"Maximum Charge: 3680W,16A/250V~"

 

Don Gies

 <mailto:ddg...@verizon.net> ddg...@verizon.net

(732) 207-7828

 

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

Unlike the US/Canada (etc), there is no derating factor for UK mains wall
outlets. A 13A wall outlet can be loaded at 13A, and a twin/duplex 13A
outlet can be loaded at 13A per outlet because the "diversity factor"
principle is applied, i.e. it is highly unlikely in practice that both 13A
outlets will be actually be fully loaded at the same time! 

 

Murphy's Law may however apply at times in that both outlets could
simultaneously be loaded at 13A - and so it is to be hoped that the wall
outlet in question is on a UK "ring main" circuit protected by a 32A
breaker, and not a spur/radial/branch circuit protected by a 16A breaker!

 

For a power strip plugged into one of those outlets, there is a (generally,
as John W said) a 13A fuse in the plug, and so the max cumulative continuous
load for the sockets in the strip is also 13A - unless, of course, the mfr
has decided to give it an overall lower current rating, fitted a lower-rated
fuse AND marked the plug with that rating. BTW: I have also occasionally
seen 7A fuses (the fuse standard is BS1362, but, AFAIK, that only shows a
few "standard" ratings, and not some of those which are actually sold - such
as those listed here http://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=plug%20top%20fuse)

 

I believe that the standard for such UK power strips is probably BS
5733:2010+A1:2014 "General requirements for electrical accessories.
Specification" - but don't have a copy and so can't comment in detail on
what it requires.

 

John Allen

W.London, UK

 

 

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 15 September 2017 07:36
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

UK household power strips are rated at 13 A and include a 13 A fuse. Other
fuses, normally used in plugs, are 3 A, 5 A and 10 A. I have seen a 1 A
fuse, but they are very rare.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only

www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

 

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

 

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

 

Esteemed colleagues,

 

Here in North America a domestic or commercial multi-outlet
power strip would be cord connected thru a duplex outlet protected by a 15A
(or sometimes 20A) circuit breaker.  The max load allowed in the circuit by
the US NEC would be (80% of 15A) 12A for the total load (or 80% of 20A) 16A
on the 20A breaker.   Note that the US NEC requires that any device plugged
into a duplex outlet must not use the full load capacity of the circuit -
20% must be left for the other outlet's load.  

 

Trying to understand the loading basis for a Euro power
strip.  Is the usual protection a 10A breaker? And would the power strip be
rated and evaluated at that

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[John Woodgate]

Yes, the marking on these is not well-formatted. The three numbers are
*independent* limits, the 3680 W being 16 A at 230 V, but the strip could be
used on supplies up to 250 V as long as neither of the other limits was
exceeded.
 
Better would be 'Maximum ratings: 16 A, 250 V, 3680 W'
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty
 
From: Don Gies [mailto:ddg...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 1:16 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
 
Pete,
 
Before last year's TC108 meeting in Frankfurt, I purchased a German Schucko
European Power Strip from Amazon.  It had 3 AC receptacles and 2 USB
outputs. 
 Its ratings are:
"Maximum Charge: 3680W,16A/250V~"
 
Don Gies
 <mailto:ddg...@verizon.net> ddg...@verizon.net
(732) 207-7828
 
From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
 
Unlike the US/Canada (etc), there is no derating factor for UK mains wall
outlets. A 13A wall outlet can be loaded at 13A, and a twin/duplex 13A
outlet can be loaded at 13A per outlet because the "diversity factor"
principle is applied, i.e. it is highly unlikely in practice that both 13A
outlets will be actually be fully loaded at the same time! 
 
Murphy's Law may however apply at times in that both outlets could
simultaneously be loaded at 13A - and so it is to be hoped that the wall
outlet in question is on a UK "ring main" circuit protected by a 32A
breaker, and not a spur/radial/branch circuit protected by a 16A breaker!
 
For a power strip plugged into one of those outlets, there is a (generally,
as John W said) a 13A fuse in the plug, and so the max cumulative continuous
load for the sockets in the strip is also 13A - unless, of course, the mfr
has decided to give it an overall lower current rating, fitted a lower-rated
fuse AND marked the plug with that rating. BTW: I have also occasionally
seen 7A fuses (the fuse standard is BS1362, but, AFAIK, that only shows a
few "standard" ratings, and not some of those which are actually sold - such
as those listed here http://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=plug%20top%20fuse)
 
I believe that the standard for such UK power strips is probably BS
5733:2010+A1:2014 "General requirements for electrical accessories.
Specification" - but don't have a copy and so can't comment in detail on
what it requires.
 
John Allen
W.London, UK
 
 
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 15 September 2017 07:36
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details
 
UK household power strips are rated at 13 A and include a 13 A fuse. Other
fuses, normally used in plugs, are 3 A, 5 A and 10 A. I have seen a 1 A
fuse, but they are very rare.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty
 
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] power strip details
 
Esteemed colleagues,
 
Here in North America a domestic or commercial multi-outlet
power strip would be cord connected thru a duplex outlet protected by a 15A
(or sometimes 20A) circuit breaker.  The max load allowed in the circuit by
the US NEC would be (80% of 15A) 12A for the total load (or 80% of 20A) 16A
on the 20A breaker.   Note that the US NEC requires that any device plugged
into a duplex outlet must not use the full load capacity of the circuit -
20% must be left for the other outlet's load.  
 
Trying to understand the loading basis for a Euro power
strip.  Is the usual protection a 10A breaker? And would the power strip be
rated and evaluated at that load level?  What other considerations come into
play here?  
 
How about a UK power strip.   The usual protection is the
13A fuse in the power plug (altho smaller values seemed to be used also).
Would the power strip be rated and evaluated at that load level?  What other
considerations come into play here.  
 
For a Japanese power strip what is the normal breaker
protection for the installed circuit?  What would be the max rated load for
the power strip?  What other considerations come into play here also?  
 
Looking forward to your replies on this issue.  
 
:>) br,  Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[Don Gies]

Pete,

 

Before last year's TC108 meeting in Frankfurt, I purchased a German Schucko
European Power Strip from Amazon.  It had 3 AC receptacles and 2 USB
outputs. 

 Its ratings are:

"Maximum Charge: 3680W,16A/250V~"

 

Don Gies

 <mailto:ddg...@verizon.net> ddg...@verizon.net

(732) 207-7828

 

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

Unlike the US/Canada (etc), there is no derating factor for UK mains wall
outlets. A 13A wall outlet can be loaded at 13A, and a twin/duplex 13A
outlet can be loaded at 13A per outlet because the "diversity factor"
principle is applied, i.e. it is highly unlikely in practice that both 13A
outlets will be actually be fully loaded at the same time! 

 

Murphy's Law may however apply at times in that both outlets could
simultaneously be loaded at 13A - and so it is to be hoped that the wall
outlet in question is on a UK "ring main" circuit protected by a 32A
breaker, and not a spur/radial/branch circuit protected by a 16A breaker!

 

For a power strip plugged into one of those outlets, there is a (generally,
as John W said) a 13A fuse in the plug, and so the max cumulative continuous
load for the sockets in the strip is also 13A - unless, of course, the mfr
has decided to give it an overall lower current rating, fitted a lower-rated
fuse AND marked the plug with that rating. BTW: I have also occasionally
seen 7A fuses (the fuse standard is BS1362, but, AFAIK, that only shows a
few "standard" ratings, and not some of those which are actually sold - such
as those listed here http://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=plug%20top%20fuse)

 

I believe that the standard for such UK power strips is probably BS
5733:2010+A1:2014 "General requirements for electrical accessories.
Specification" - but don't have a copy and so can't comment in detail on
what it requires.

 

John Allen

W.London, UK

 

 

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 15 September 2017 07:36
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

UK household power strips are rated at 13 A and include a 13 A fuse. Other
fuses, normally used in plugs, are 3 A, 5 A and 10 A. I have seen a 1 A
fuse, but they are very rare.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only

www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

 

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

 

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

 

Esteemed colleagues,

 

Here in North America a domestic or commercial multi-outlet
power strip would be cord connected thru a duplex outlet protected by a 15A
(or sometimes 20A) circuit breaker.  The max load allowed in the circuit by
the US NEC would be (80% of 15A) 12A for the total load (or 80% of 20A) 16A
on the 20A breaker.   Note that the US NEC requires that any device plugged
into a duplex outlet must not use the full load capacity of the circuit -
20% must be left for the other outlet's load.  

 

Trying to understand the loading basis for a Euro power
strip.  Is the usual protection a 10A breaker? And would the power strip be
rated and evaluated at that load level?  What other considerations come into
play here?  

 

How about a UK power strip.   The usual protection is the
13A fuse in the power plug (altho smaller values seemed to be used also).
Would the power strip be rated and evaluated at that load level?  What other
considerations come into play here.  

 

For a Japanese power strip what is the normal breaker
protection for the installed circuit?  What would be the max rated load for
the power strip?  What other considerations come into play here also?  

 

Looking forward to your replies on this issue.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

p.perk...@ieee.org <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> 

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Re: [PSES] power strip details

[John Allen]

Unlike the US/Canada (etc), there is no derating factor for UK mains wall
outlets. A 13A wall outlet can be loaded at 13A, and a twin/duplex 13A
outlet can be loaded at 13A per outlet because the "diversity factor"
principle is applied, i.e. it is highly unlikely in practice that both 13A
outlets will be actually be fully loaded at the same time! 

 

Murphy's Law may however apply at times in that both outlets could
simultaneously be loaded at 13A - and so it is to be hoped that the wall
outlet in question is on a UK "ring main" circuit protected by a 32A
breaker, and not a spur/radial/branch circuit protected by a 16A breaker!

 

For a power strip plugged into one of those outlets, there is a (generally,
as John W said) a 13A fuse in the plug, and so the max cumulative continuous
load for the sockets in the strip is also 13A - unless, of course, the mfr
has decided to give it an overall lower current rating, fitted a lower-rated
fuse AND marked the plug with that rating. BTW: I have also occasionally
seen 7A fuses (the fuse standard is BS1362, but, AFAIK, that only shows a
few "standard" ratings, and not some of those which are actually sold - such
as those listed here http://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=plug%20top%20fuse)

 

I believe that the standard for such UK power strips is probably BS
5733:2010+A1:2014 "General requirements for electrical accessories.
Specification" - but don't have a copy and so can't comment in detail on
what it requires.

 

John Allen

W.London, UK

 

 

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 15 September 2017 07:36
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details

 

UK household power strips are rated at 13 A and include a 13 A fuse. Other
fuses, normally used in plugs, are 3 A, 5 A and 10 A. I have seen a 1 A
fuse, but they are very rare.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only

www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

 

UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty

 

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details

 

Esteemed colleagues,

 

Here in North America a domestic or commercial multi-outlet
power strip would be cord connected thru a duplex outlet protected by a 15A
(or sometimes 20A) circuit breaker.  The max load allowed in the circuit by
the US NEC would be (80% of 15A) 12A for the total load (or 80% of 20A) 16A
on the 20A breaker.   Note that the US NEC requires that any device plugged
into a duplex outlet must not use the full load capacity of the circuit -
20% must be left for the other outlet's load.  

 

Trying to understand the loading basis for a Euro power
strip.  Is the usual protection a 10A breaker? And would the power strip be
rated and evaluated at that load level?  What other considerations come into
play here?  

 

How about a UK power strip.   The usual protection is the
13A fuse in the power plug (altho smaller values seemed to be used also).
Would the power strip be rated and evaluated at that load level?  What other
considerations come into play here.  

 

For a Japanese power strip what is the normal breaker
protection for the installed circuit?  What would be the max rated load for
the power strip?  What other considerations come into play here also?  

 

Looking forward to your replies on this issue.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

p.perk...@ieee.org

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

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Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> 

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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Re: [PSES] power strip details

[John Woodgate]

UK household power strips are rated at 13 A and include a 13 A fuse. Other
fuses, normally used in plugs, are 3 A, 5 A and 10 A. I have seen a 1 A
fuse, but they are very rare.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty
 
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] power strip details
 
Esteemed colleagues,
 
Here in North America a domestic or commercial multi-outlet
power strip would be cord connected thru a duplex outlet protected by a 15A
(or sometimes 20A) circuit breaker.  The max load allowed in the circuit by
the US NEC would be (80% of 15A) 12A for the total load (or 80% of 20A) 16A
on the 20A breaker.   Note that the US NEC requires that any device plugged
into a duplex outlet must not use the full load capacity of the circuit -
20% must be left for the other outlet's load.  
 
Trying to understand the loading basis for a Euro power
strip.  Is the usual protection a 10A breaker? And would the power strip be
rated and evaluated at that load level?  What other considerations come into
play here?  
 
How about a UK power strip.   The usual protection is the
13A fuse in the power plug (altho smaller values seemed to be used also).
Would the power strip be rated and evaluated at that load level?  What other
considerations come into play here.  
 
For a Japanese power strip what is the normal breaker
protection for the installed circuit?  What would be the max rated load for
the power strip?  What other considerations come into play here also?  
 
Looking forward to your replies on this issue.  
 
:>) br,  Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201
 
p.perk...@ieee.org  
 
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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