Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Valerio Bellizzomi]

On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 21:43 +0100, andy pugh wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:17, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > I'm not going to turn this into a rant about Linux command lines but when 
> > you think about it much of working with LinuxCNC is essentially still 
> > 'command line' oriented.
> 
> Actually, it isn't. But it looks that way from email lists, forums and
> IRC because it is _much_ easier to tell someone the text-based way to
> do something on a text-based medium than it is to describe the GUI
> approach.
> 
> Advanced HAL involves text editing, despite a few attempts at a GUI.
> But bear in mind that the HAL is typically set up once and used
> unchanged for years. A fancy GUI might not be a worthwhile time
> investment, and no matter how good is likely to miss some features
> that can be hand-coded.
> 
> LinuxCNC configuration is graphical, with pncconf and stepconf. There
> are (several) conversational interfaces for simple operations. Some
> more finished and workable than others.
> What is needed there is a bit more integration between the GUIs and
> the CAM. (I am thinking particularly of NativeCAM here, which does
> clever stuff with block-delete to show the stock in the preview, but
> it would be nicer if that was something that the GUI knew how to do.
> 


Did you try GenericCAM ?

http://genericcam.sourceforge.net/

It compiles good on Ubuntu.




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Valerio Bellizzomi]

On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 15:39 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 04 September 2020 13:20:26 Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 10:02 -0700, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  
> wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson
> > > >  > > >
> > > > wrote
> > > >
> > > > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a
> > > > > product that
> > > >
> > > > is
> > > >
> > > > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look
> > > > > at HAL
> > > >
> > > > files
> > > >
> > > > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is
> > > > > required it will always remain a niche product.
> > > >
> > > > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this
> > > > project?
> > >
> > > I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a
> > > point that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche
> > > products become mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around
> > > it.PCs were kind of rare until Windows covered over the DOS
> > > command line.
> >
> > This is questionable. I used a PC with UNIX in 1984 and all our
> > clients had UNIX. No graphics interface, only command line, databases
> > and ad-hoc graphic programs. This was before Windows, we had UNIX and
> > DOS in dual-boot on some PCs, UNIX on the servers. However the Apple
> > Mac already had a graphics interface :-)
> >
> Our first experince with unix, was on an AT 3B2 CBS bought all the 
> affiliates as a message service.  It was not a good experience because 
> the 3b2 was built like most Apples, the first layer of dust and cheap 
> sleeve bearing fans killed a fan and usually started a fire. I had a 
> halon extinguisher sitting next to it that got used a couple times.  
> Then CBS bought us all new systems running on a pc, running NT-3.5.1, 
> which had a built in timer in its housekeeping that deleted the 
> main .dll about every 2 years. I called Redmond and got called a pie rat 
> because I wanted a copy of that .dll.  I washed my hands of anything 
> that looked like windows, somebody else could have that headache and 
> when I decided my amiga was on its last legs, and built a pc from parts 
> in '98, it got red hat 5.0 installed. My property has a bounty on 
> windows, and no windows I've ever been forced to buy has lasted more 
> than a week past the warranty. I have one win-10 box, a $330 hp thing 
> used as a display for drawing smith charts of an AM broadcast tower, 
> couldn't make the linux drivers work. IMNSHO Win-10 is a damned poor 
> substutute for Linux.  But you ALL know that. :)
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


My first experience with unix was on my IBM PC1, with one 5 1/4 floppy
and a 32MB IBM hard disk. the OS was Interactive Systems Unix and DOS
3.3 in dual-boot. But this was after playing/programming four years with
my Commodore 64.
I still have the C64 in a drawer with all the devices and floppies :-)
Also I have conserved the DOS Turbo Pascal 3.0 compiler and also Turbo
Prolog, Fortran 77 4.1 and Autocad 2.9 :-)





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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[R C]

I agree there,  CNC Linux is pretty cool, it can do a lot more than I 
can ever learn about it..  and it's free...



you can't complain about free...   especially if a ton of people like it..



On 9/4/20 6:16 PM, Phill Carter wrote:



On 5 Sep 2020, at 4:53 am, Mark Wendt  wrote:

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com>>
wrote:


On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:


On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <

albertson.ch...@gmail.com

wrote

...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that

is

slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL

files

or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required

it

will always remain a niche product.


Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?


I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.


And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
and best CNC machine controller.

Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.

Mark

My thoughts exactly Mark, this constant whining wears thin…

Cheers, Phill.
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Phill Carter]

> On 5 Sep 2020, at 4:53 am, Mark Wendt  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson  >
> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <
>> albertson.ch...@gmail.com
 
>>> wrote
 ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that
>>> is
 slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
>>> files
 or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required
>> it
 will always remain a niche product.
 
>>> 
>>> Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
>>> 
>> 
>> I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
>> that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
>> mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
>> of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.
>> 
> 
> And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
> set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
> do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
> happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
> software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
> write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
> golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
> and best CNC machine controller.
> 
> Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
> that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
> the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.
> 
> Mark

My thoughts exactly Mark, this constant whining wears thin…

Cheers, Phill.
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Jon Elson]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson 
 wrote:

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:


On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <

albertson.ch...@gmail.com

wrote

...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that

is

slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL

files

or know it runs on Linux.
Well, Sherline did this in about 2002 or so.  They 
supposedly sold 1000 CNC'ed Sherlines with a desktop PC with 
EMC installed on it, as a package deal.


(I'm really vague on the date when they did this.  I'm 
pretty sure it was PRE-EMC2.)


Jon


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[Emc-users] anyone needs calipers

[grumpy--- via Emc-users]

https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/bscci/catalogue-id-bscci10396/lot-9f16740e-b338-4552-bc54-ac1600eeafca


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Mark Wendt [mailto:wendt.m...@gmail.com]
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 4:47 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:
> > Mark,
> > Why did you change from MACH3 to LinuxCNC?  What was it about MACH3 you
> > didn't like?  Forget for a moment that it's Windows or Linux as a reason.
> > What was it that made LinuxCNC Axis (or what do you use?)  so much nicer.
> > And for how many years did you run MACH3 before you changed?  Do you miss
> > the wizards?

> Never said I changed from Mach 3 to LinuxCNC.  I've not owned a Windows
> machine for the better part of 30 years.  

Oops.  Sorry.  For some reason I thought you had.  What I'm looking for are 
reasons why perhaps (again other than a dislike of Windows) why people changed. 
 

> Doesn't matter to me how many units that Aliexpress sold per year of that
> controller.  Wouldn't work on my machine, so I have no need to even
> consider it. 

I understand that.  I think that Chris was basically trying to say the same 
thing.  If for example those types of far east controllers were selling in the 
thousands that might say a lot about that type of user interface. 

OTOH, I've not seen that sort of a control system on any of the Grizzly Tools 
mills nor on any mills from Princess Auto or KMS tools here in Canada.  I do 
remember someone, maybe on the MACH group, stating they'd bought two for their 
mills and were extremely happy with them.  That they no longer had to muck with 
a PC and could continue making chips.

Even if I did build an ELS-MILL I would never expect anyone with a proper 
functioning system to change.  I know I wouldn't.For example I have a 
DRO-550 in addition to the two DRO350 kits.  I'm still using the first DRO-350 
I built.  The second was to be a spare.  The DRO-550 was to replace it but 
never did.  

So I'm likely the last person to change easily.  That's why my PC on the mill 
is still dual boot.  Just in case I wanted to keep it the same as the CNC 
router which is still running MACH3 on WIN-XP and a Shuttle Xpress as the MPG.  
BTW, I really like that little unit.  

I think we're all basically in agreement that the design needs to be done 
first.  And before the design, a list of requirements.   

John Dammeyer



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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[John Dammeyer]

> Axis (and I think all the other GUIs) support this kind of wizard.
> There are examples in the sample configs. The problem is that they
> have never been in-your-face obvious with a new install, and many are
> basically just a demo abandoned by the original developer.
> 
> The hooks all exist.
> 
> --
> atp

Maybe that's partly the problem with Axis and LinuxCNC.   Perhaps a step back 
before making two steps forward.  

Put a shock collar like the ones to keep dogs in line around the neck of the 
AXIS programmer.  An intelligent collar.  Every time the thought that command 
line operation or editor operation could be used he gets a mild shock.  If 
starts implementing it he gets a bigger shock.

Just kidding...

John




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 22:27, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> I've attached a screen shot of a small Lazarus program I wrote last year.  It 
> creates the G-Code.  The screenshot was captured on a WIN-7 ASUS laptop.  But 
> the code also compiles and runs on LinuxCNC.  I've actually tried it.
> Probably with some use there would be other options.  Like the path to save 
> the file to.  A hook so it's immediately loaded into AXIS.  In fact ideally 
> it could be launched from Axis but also separately.

Axis (and I think all the other GUIs) support this kind of wizard.
There are examples in the sample configs. The problem is that they
have never been in-your-face obvious with a new install, and many are
basically just a demo abandoned by the original developer.

The hooks all exist.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:

From what I understand, the MESA hardware essentially already offloads most of 
the important real time stuff into the FPGAs.  Remember, you can, in addition 
to quadrature counters, PSI ports etc, fabricate an entire micro-processor 
inside an FPGA.


One way to look at what the Mesa hardware does is that it runs LinuxCNCs "Base 
Thread" in hardware, so only the (normally 1 KHz) "Servo Thread" is needed.


BTW Mesa Ethernet cards always have at least 1 CPU embedded in the FPGA fabric 
(for Ethernet communications), and may have additional CPUs for SSerial device 
communications or a 32 BIT DSP embedded for resolver interfaces.



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Ed]

On 9/4/20 3:14 PM, Mark Wendt wrote:

Is this mostly a question of UI's instead of the underlying OS and app? 
If you did not tell Joe Average that Linuxcnc runs on Linux and just had 
him run the app I think he would be happy once he got on top of the 
learning curve.



PathPilot seems to very well liked by Tormach users, others like Axis, 
GMOsomething, going back  Mini and even Keystick were used by many. It 
seems most of the questions people that are casual or infrequent users 
have is about the UI and setup. Setup is easy with wizards like Pncconf 
and Stepconf and is no harder than Mach3/4.



UI's do have a learning curve and people have different uses and needs 
which get focused through the UI. Some people live and die by a 
tablet/smartphone and don't want anything else and that is fine. For me, 
on my machines, I want a keyboard because for my use it is much faster.


Do we need a major update of Linuxcnc capabilities or do we need the 
best UI?



Ed.




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[John Dammeyer]

Thanks Andy.

> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: September-04-20 1:35 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI
> 
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:17, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > From what I understand, the MESA hardware essentially already offloads most 
> > of the important real time stuff into the FPGAs.
> 
> Not really. It moves some of the fast time-critical stuff to the FPGA
> but it is still _very_much_ reliant on getting realtime updates from
> the controller every 1mS +/- a small jitter.
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Mark Wendt]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 4:47 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Wendt [mailto:wendt.m...@gmail.com]
> >  Completely
> > redesigning a working system to satisfy a small number of people who
> might
> > or would like something different I'm sure is not something the
> developers
> > of this great software would consider.
> >
> > So,like I said before, fork off to a new branch, do your design work,
> write
> > your code and rule the CNC world.  Don't expect somebody else to do your
> > work for the things you want.  You want it, you make it happen.
> >
> > Mark
>
> Mark,
> Why did you change from MACH3 to LinuxCNC?  What was it about MACH3 you
> didn't like?  Forget for a moment that it's Windows or Linux as a reason.
> What was it that made LinuxCNC Axis (or what do you use?)  so much nicer.
> And for how many years did you run MACH3 before you changed?  Do you miss
> the wizards?
>
> Also I wonder how many of these are sold per year?
>
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1055531039.html
>
> The pictures on the web site look more like CAD representations but there
> are other aliexpress and banggood sites that sell similar products.
>
> Does anyone on this list have one like this?
>
> Just curious.
> John Dammeyer
>

Never said I changed from Mach 3 to LinuxCNC.  I've not owned a Windows
machine for the better part of 30 years.  My days as a system and network
admin were done on VMS, Unix, DecUnix, HP-UX, SGI, Solaris and Linux. My
first machine was built and used LinuxCNC.  Been using LinuxCNC for over 20
years.  Wouldn't switch to anything else, especially since any form of
Windows is outlawed in either my home or shop.

Doesn't matter to me how many units that Aliexpress sold per year of that
controller.  Wouldn't work on my machine, so I have no need to even
consider it.  Mach 3 would have been a poor choice for my machine too.
LinuxCNC (EMC/EMC2 at the time when I designed and built my machine)
offered me the flexibility to be able to make my machine work the way I
wanted it to.  Nothing else came close.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[John Dammeyer]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Wendt [mailto:wendt.m...@gmail.com]
>  Completely
> redesigning a working system to satisfy a small number of people who might
> or would like something different I'm sure is not something the developers
> of this great software would consider.
> 
> So,like I said before, fork off to a new branch, do your design work, write
> your code and rule the CNC world.  Don't expect somebody else to do your
> work for the things you want.  You want it, you make it happen.
> 
> Mark

Mark,
Why did you change from MACH3 to LinuxCNC?  What was it about MACH3 you didn't 
like?  Forget for a moment that it's Windows or Linux as a reason.  What was it 
that made LinuxCNC Axis (or what do you use?)  so much nicer.  And for how many 
years did you run MACH3 before you changed?  Do you miss the wizards?

Also I wonder how many of these are sold per year?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1055531039.html

The pictures on the web site look more like CAD representations but there are 
other aliexpress and banggood sites that sell similar products.

Does anyone on this list have one like this?

Just curious.
John Dammeyer




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:17, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> I'm not going to turn this into a rant about Linux command lines but when you 
> think about it much of working with LinuxCNC is essentially still 'command 
> line' oriented.

Actually, it isn't. But it looks that way from email lists, forums and
IRC because it is _much_ easier to tell someone the text-based way to
do something on a text-based medium than it is to describe the GUI
approach.

Advanced HAL involves text editing, despite a few attempts at a GUI.
But bear in mind that the HAL is typically set up once and used
unchanged for years. A fancy GUI might not be a worthwhile time
investment, and no matter how good is likely to miss some features
that can be hand-coded.

LinuxCNC configuration is graphical, with pncconf and stepconf. There
are (several) conversational interfaces for simple operations. Some
more finished and workable than others.
What is needed there is a bit more integration between the GUIs and
the CAM. (I am thinking particularly of NativeCAM here, which does
clever stuff with block-delete to show the stock in the preview, but
it would be nicer if that was something that the GUI knew how to do.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:17, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> From what I understand, the MESA hardware essentially already offloads most 
> of the important real time stuff into the FPGAs.

Not really. It moves some of the fast time-critical stuff to the FPGA
but it is still _very_much_ reliant on getting realtime updates from
the controller every 1mS +/- a small jitter.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Mark Wendt]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 4:05 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> > And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what
> this
> > set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
> > do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
> > happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
> > software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
> > write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
> > golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
> > and best CNC machine controller.
> >
> > Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
> > that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
> > the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> Hey Mark,
> Indirectly I've already done some of that over 10 years ago when many of
> the naysayers on the CNC groups insisted that an Electronic Lead screw
> project was a useless waste of time.
>
> And now, my ELS, with a full keypad and function buttons has been derided
> as old fashioned because it has too many buttons.  I think mostly because
> adding that many extra to an Arduino suddenly runs into code space
> limitations but that's a different story.
>
> If I want ball turning and other automation features on my Lathe I unplug
> the parallel port cable from the back of my ELS and plug it into a PC
> parallel port.  In this case I can only run MACH3 because my ELS runs 1PPR
> spindle sensing while Linux needs multiple pulses.
>
> The Arduino based Electronic Gearing systems misnamed as an ELS use the
> high res 1800 PPR spindle encoder to directly run the stepper motor
> creating ratios by dividing/multiplying those counts.  And many of them
> still require a close watch to release the half nut.  Their advantage is
> they can turn the spindle by hand and the lead screw tracks just like the
> gears.  The disadvantage is they won't work on a Sherline or other small
> lathe because they have a 1200RPM or so top spindle speed.
>
> In either case though, and this is the important point, none of those
> users want CNC or they'd just go that way.   One friend of mine started
> converting his lathe to use my ELS but never bought one.  He continued
> straight on to MACH3.  Loves it.
>
> On this group, I suspect over 90% of the members are already running
> LinuxCNC.  Unless you are just into playing with electronics and software
> why would you even change to something different?
>
> So like the creation of the E-Leadscrew yahoo group after lack of interest
> on CAD-CAM-DRO and DIYCNC a separated Control Box and multi-user platform
> CNC system for mills probably won't happen on this group.
>
> For example, most of the Linux people I know rave about Python as the best
> thing to use.  Personally I can't stand it.  Best kept secret is actually
> Delphi now sold by Embarcadero.  But it's become very expensive and the
> latest version 10.4 of RAD Studio forced users to upgrade to WIN-10.
>
> But, with the Firemonkey library one program can be compiled with the
> appropriate end target look and feel for PCs, Macs, Tablets and phones.
> And now also Linux.  IMHO, that is the correct vehicle to use for
> developing a new graphics oriented CNC user interface that talks to a
> dedicated open source hardware module that does the Real Time work.
>
> An alternative but not yet targeted at tablets or phones is Lazarus with
> Free Pascal.  I've been working on a CANopen project for the last few
> months that compiles and runs on PCs, Pi3, BBB and LinuxCNC.  To access the
> CAN bus the PC uses the USB port and the Lawicel CANUSB (www.canusb.com).
> In fact the Beagle and the Pi can also use this dongle.
>
> I've also got a cape for the Beagle with a CAN driver and I'm working on
> using the CAN library to access that from this same program.  Also a HAT
> for the Pi that has a MCP2515 SPI based CAN device.
>
> The whole point of the project is a CANopen Lite project that will allow
> someone to create CANopen Lite conformance testing) and interface to COTS
> CANopen modules like step/servo drives etc. I don't believe CANopen is
> suitable for real time CNC control for mills or lathes.  For all the slow
> hardware yes.  Some sort of high speed controller with an RTOS probably is
> still needed for the main system.
>
> Because I'm using Lazarus and Free Pascal I'm also designing this CANopen
> Lite program in such a way to hopefully easily port back to Delphi.  And
> with that to tablets etc.  In either case, this is just the start.And
> it will all be open source.
>
> To sum up the market for this is not existing LinuxCNC or MACH4 users.  It
> might well be existing MACH3 users or people who want something more than a
> manual mill but less than full CNC.  Path Pilot was mentioned with no need
> to know about the HAL.  But that's a dedicated machine.  I don't think
> there's Python 

Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Mark Wendt]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 4:01 PM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> "Start writing code" is the exact WRONG way to start the software project.
> In fact, it is a classically wrong way that is common with beginners.
>  Every software management book written in the last few decades starts out
> showing all the common mistakes and this is #1 on the list.
>
> The best analogy is to building a house.   The beginners say "why not just
> buy some lumber and start work, everything knows what house looks like.
> He gets halfway done and someone tells him the foundation is wrong.  So he
> fixes that.   Then even worse after the house is done they tell him the
> floor plan is wrong and it needs to be a single floor because the elderly
> owners can't walk upstairs.So much software is done this way that it is
> the #1 reason why projects fail.
>
> The correct way is to spend considerable time upfront looking at what the
> customer really needs, not what he says he needs.   Then you might do some
> prototypes to mock-ups and show them around to get feedback and more
> ideas.You can do this a few times.   Finally, you can get into
> high-level design, figure out what the major parts will be and how the
> parts interact.
>
> Next, I'd do prototype work and verify some of the harder parts can even be
> done.
>
> Finally, you get to detailed design stage, do that, show it around and get
> more input.
>
> Now you are ready to start writing code.
>
> But why bother when most LinuxCNC users are happy with what they have?
> Most DOS users were happy with the DOS command line.  But there were few
> DOS users.  It is kind os self fulfilling, those not happy with the way
> LinuxCNC works never become LinuxCNC users.
>
>
> Look what Tormach did.  There target customer base was NOT LinuxCNC users.
> They went after a larger group of potential costomers
>
> So this email list is actually a very poor place to get ideas, A better
> place is to find where the hordes of machinests who looked at LinuxCNC and
> said "not for me" and moved on.   What were THOSE guys looking for?
>

My background is computer science, and I worked as a system and network
admin for the Naval Research Lab in DC for almost 30 years.  I know what's
involved in very large projects for satellite systems as well as a bunch of
other classified military systems.  I know what is involved in complex
software and building a system that meets the requirement for very complex
requirements.  Don't need a lecture from you on that.

Bringing up DOS users is a straw man argument number one.  Number two, the
number of users of Unix and Linux systems vastly outnumber the folks that
used DOS, and Unix and Linux software are still widely used even today.
Can't say the same about DOS users.

You do realize that Tormach Path Pilot is really nothing more than a
different front end to LinuxCNC, right?

What were those folks looking for that decided they didn't want LinuxCNC?
Dunno, why don't you ask them, then design them a system they would like?
All I see hear is the same people throwing out the same ideas for a system
that is _not_ LinuxCNC.  Like I said before, instead of complaining the
system you seem to want doesn't exist, take the bull by the horns and
design and code that system.  Then you'll have the bully pulpit in your own
kingdom of CNC users who would like and want your software.  Completely
redesigning a working system to satisfy a small number of people who might
or would like something different I'm sure is not something the developers
of this great software would consider.

So,like I said before, fork off to a new branch, do your design work, write
your code and rule the CNC world.  Don't expect somebody else to do your
work for the things you want.  You want it, you make it happen.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[John Dammeyer]

Hear! Hear!  Applause   Standing ovation!
John Dammeyer

> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: September-04-20 12:58 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI
> 
> "Start writing code" is the exact WRONG way to start the software project.
> In fact, it is a classically wrong way that is common with beginners.
>  Every software management book written in the last few decades starts out
> showing all the common mistakes and this is #1 on the list.
> 
> The best analogy is to building a house.   The beginners say "why not just
> buy some lumber and start work, everything knows what house looks like.
> He gets halfway done and someone tells him the foundation is wrong.  So he
> fixes that.   Then even worse after the house is done they tell him the
> floor plan is wrong and it needs to be a single floor because the elderly
> owners can't walk upstairs.So much software is done this way that it is
> the #1 reason why projects fail.
> 
> The correct way is to spend considerable time upfront looking at what the
> customer really needs, not what he says he needs.   Then you might do some
> prototypes to mock-ups and show them around to get feedback and more
> ideas.You can do this a few times.   Finally, you can get into
> high-level design, figure out what the major parts will be and how the
> parts interact.
> 
> Next, I'd do prototype work and verify some of the harder parts can even be
> done.
> 
> Finally, you get to detailed design stage, do that, show it around and get
> more input.
> 
> Now you are ready to start writing code.
> 
> But why bother when most LinuxCNC users are happy with what they have?
> Most DOS users were happy with the DOS command line.  But there were few
> DOS users.  It is kind os self fulfilling, those not happy with the way
> LinuxCNC works never become LinuxCNC users.
> 
> 
> Look what Tormach did.  There target customer base was NOT LinuxCNC users.
> They went after a larger group of potential costomers
> 
> So this email list is actually a very poor place to get ideas, A better
> place is to find where the hordes of machinests who looked at LinuxCNC and
> said "not for me" and moved on.   What were THOSE guys looking for?
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:57 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <
> > > albertson.ch...@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > wrote
> > > > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product
> > that
> > > > is
> > > > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
> > > > files
> > > > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is
> > required
> > > it
> > > > > will always remain a niche product.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
> > > that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
> > > mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
> > > of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
> > set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
> > do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
> > happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
> > software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
> > write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
> > golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
> > and best CNC machine controller.
> >
> > Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
> > that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
> > the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[John Dammeyer]

> And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
> set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
> do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
> happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
> software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
> write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
> golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
> and best CNC machine controller.
> 
> Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
> that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
> the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.
> 
> Mark
> 
Hey Mark,
Indirectly I've already done some of that over 10 years ago when many of the 
naysayers on the CNC groups insisted that an Electronic Lead screw project was 
a useless waste of time.  

And now, my ELS, with a full keypad and function buttons has been derided as 
old fashioned because it has too many buttons.  I think mostly because adding 
that many extra to an Arduino suddenly runs into code space limitations but 
that's a different story.  

If I want ball turning and other automation features on my Lathe I unplug the 
parallel port cable from the back of my ELS and plug it into a PC parallel 
port.  In this case I can only run MACH3 because my ELS runs 1PPR spindle 
sensing while Linux needs multiple pulses.

The Arduino based Electronic Gearing systems misnamed as an ELS use the high 
res 1800 PPR spindle encoder to directly run the stepper motor creating ratios 
by dividing/multiplying those counts.  And many of them still require a close 
watch to release the half nut.  Their advantage is they can turn the spindle by 
hand and the lead screw tracks just like the gears.  The disadvantage is they 
won't work on a Sherline or other small lathe because they have a 1200RPM or so 
top spindle speed.

In either case though, and this is the important point, none of those users 
want CNC or they'd just go that way.   One friend of mine started converting 
his lathe to use my ELS but never bought one.  He continued straight on to 
MACH3.  Loves it.

On this group, I suspect over 90% of the members are already running LinuxCNC.  
Unless you are just into playing with electronics and software why would you 
even change to something different?

So like the creation of the E-Leadscrew yahoo group after lack of interest on 
CAD-CAM-DRO and DIYCNC a separated Control Box and multi-user platform CNC 
system for mills probably won't happen on this group.

For example, most of the Linux people I know rave about Python as the best 
thing to use.  Personally I can't stand it.  Best kept secret is actually 
Delphi now sold by Embarcadero.  But it's become very expensive and the latest 
version 10.4 of RAD Studio forced users to upgrade to WIN-10.  

But, with the Firemonkey library one program can be compiled with the 
appropriate end target look and feel for PCs, Macs, Tablets and phones.  And 
now also Linux.  IMHO, that is the correct vehicle to use for developing a new 
graphics oriented CNC user interface that talks to a dedicated open source 
hardware module that does the Real Time work.

An alternative but not yet targeted at tablets or phones is Lazarus with Free 
Pascal.  I've been working on a CANopen project for the last few months that 
compiles and runs on PCs, Pi3, BBB and LinuxCNC.  To access the CAN bus the PC 
uses the USB port and the Lawicel CANUSB (www.canusb.com).  In fact the Beagle 
and the Pi can also use this dongle.

I've also got a cape for the Beagle with a CAN driver and I'm working on using 
the CAN library to access that from this same program.  Also a HAT for the Pi 
that has a MCP2515 SPI based CAN device.

The whole point of the project is a CANopen Lite project that will allow 
someone to create CANopen Lite conformance testing) and interface to COTS 
CANopen modules like step/servo drives etc. I don't believe CANopen is suitable 
for real time CNC control for mills or lathes.  For all the slow hardware yes.  
Some sort of high speed controller with an RTOS probably is still needed for 
the main system. 

Because I'm using Lazarus and Free Pascal I'm also designing this CANopen Lite 
program in such a way to hopefully easily port back to Delphi.  And with that 
to tablets etc.  In either case, this is just the start.And it will all be 
open source.

To sum up the market for this is not existing LinuxCNC or MACH4 users.  It 
might well be existing MACH3 users or people who want something more than a 
manual mill but less than full CNC.  Path Pilot was mentioned with no need to 
know about the HAL.  But that's a dedicated machine.  I don't think there's 
Python code or access available for my Blue Ray disk player.  Although I'd love 
to be able to change the code to skip over all those stupid promos and 
copyright warnings.

Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Chris Albertson]

"Start writing code" is the exact WRONG way to start the software project.
In fact, it is a classically wrong way that is common with beginners.
 Every software management book written in the last few decades starts out
showing all the common mistakes and this is #1 on the list.

The best analogy is to building a house.   The beginners say "why not just
buy some lumber and start work, everything knows what house looks like.
He gets halfway done and someone tells him the foundation is wrong.  So he
fixes that.   Then even worse after the house is done they tell him the
floor plan is wrong and it needs to be a single floor because the elderly
owners can't walk upstairs.So much software is done this way that it is
the #1 reason why projects fail.

The correct way is to spend considerable time upfront looking at what the
customer really needs, not what he says he needs.   Then you might do some
prototypes to mock-ups and show them around to get feedback and more
ideas.You can do this a few times.   Finally, you can get into
high-level design, figure out what the major parts will be and how the
parts interact.

Next, I'd do prototype work and verify some of the harder parts can even be
done.

Finally, you get to detailed design stage, do that, show it around and get
more input.

Now you are ready to start writing code.

But why bother when most LinuxCNC users are happy with what they have?
Most DOS users were happy with the DOS command line.  But there were few
DOS users.  It is kind os self fulfilling, those not happy with the way
LinuxCNC works never become LinuxCNC users.


Look what Tormach did.  There target customer base was NOT LinuxCNC users.
They went after a larger group of potential costomers

So this email list is actually a very poor place to get ideas, A better
place is to find where the hordes of machinests who looked at LinuxCNC and
said "not for me" and moved on.   What were THOSE guys looking for?



On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:57 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <
> > albertson.ch...@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > wrote
> > > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product
> that
> > > is
> > > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
> > > files
> > > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is
> required
> > it
> > > > will always remain a niche product.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
> > >
> >
> > I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
> > that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
> > mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
> > of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.
> >
>



>
> And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
> set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
> do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
> happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
> software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
> write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
> golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
> and best CNC machine controller.
>
> Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
> that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
> the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.
>
> Mark
>
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 04 September 2020 13:20:26 Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

> On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 10:02 -0700, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  
wrote:
> > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson
> > >  > >
> > > wrote
> > >
> > > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a
> > > > product that
> > >
> > > is
> > >
> > > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look
> > > > at HAL
> > >
> > > files
> > >
> > > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is
> > > > required it will always remain a niche product.
> > >
> > > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this
> > > project?
> >
> > I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a
> > point that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche
> > products become mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around
> > it.PCs were kind of rare until Windows covered over the DOS
> > command line.
>
> This is questionable. I used a PC with UNIX in 1984 and all our
> clients had UNIX. No graphics interface, only command line, databases
> and ad-hoc graphic programs. This was before Windows, we had UNIX and
> DOS in dual-boot on some PCs, UNIX on the servers. However the Apple
> Mac already had a graphics interface :-)
>
Our first experince with unix, was on an AT 3B2 CBS bought all the 
affiliates as a message service.  It was not a good experience because 
the 3b2 was built like most Apples, the first layer of dust and cheap 
sleeve bearing fans killed a fan and usually started a fire. I had a 
halon extinguisher sitting next to it that got used a couple times.  
Then CBS bought us all new systems running on a pc, running NT-3.5.1, 
which had a built in timer in its housekeeping that deleted the 
main .dll about every 2 years. I called Redmond and got called a pie rat 
because I wanted a copy of that .dll.  I washed my hands of anything 
that looked like windows, somebody else could have that headache and 
when I decided my amiga was on its last legs, and built a pc from parts 
in '98, it got red hat 5.0 installed. My property has a bounty on 
windows, and no windows I've ever been forced to buy has lasted more 
than a week past the warranty. I have one win-10 box, a $330 hp thing 
used as a display for drawing smith charts of an AM broadcast tower, 
couldn't make the linux drivers work. IMNSHO Win-10 is a damned poor 
substutute for Linux.  But you ALL know that. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[John Dammeyer]

Man.  Chris has hit a few buttons here.
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> The real problem with the wider adoption of LinuxCNCis that it is there kit
> of parts and does not work out of the box.   After that it gets worse, the
> parts are unfamiliar to most people.

The problem isn't only the kit of parts on the electronic side of things.   
There is no standard milling machine and each one seems to require a different 
solution.  Stay with leadscrews.  Add anti-backlash nut?  Change to ball 
screws?  So the mechanics are just one side of adding CNC and the costs are not 
low.  Stepper motors?  Servo Motors?  Closed loop?  Open Loop?  A 2A size 17 
stepper driver for 24V on a 3D printer is vastly different from a 70V 8A size 
34 stepper driver in price and power supply requirements.

> 
> What is needed before it will see wide use is a re-architecture.   Move the
> real-time components to open-source hardware and then remove the need for
> real-time Linux and make the non-real-time parts cross platform
> Linux/Windows/Mac.3D printers are not unlike milling machines. Note how
> they work, you can use any computer you own and all the real-time stuff is
> on a circuit card that is not inside your computer.  These printers run
> g-code and move MUCH faster than mills

What was available when LinuxCNC was first developed and what is available now 
is so dramatically different that Chris makes a good argument for this.  Way 
back I wrote some software for a huge Gantry Based Laser Cutter for fabric.  
Run with Servos I wrote the demo software in 8085 assembler on a CP/M-80 
machine.   I was called in because the programmer was away for two weeks and 
they had an important demo coming up.  So we cut some circles and other 
polygons.

Now, although 8 bit Atmel micro-processors (Arduino) are doing much the same 
thing the number of 32 bit processors out there is nothing short of amazing.  
The Beagle with the dual PRU and fully open source but terrible graphical 
output.  The Pi with great graphics but requires 4 processors to do what the 
Beagle does with one and the dual PRUs.  And there are more.

From what I understand, the MESA hardware essentially already offloads most of 
the important real time stuff into the FPGAs.  Remember, you can, in addition 
to quadrature counters, PSI ports etc, fabricate an entire micro-processor 
inside an FPGA.
> 
> After you do this the system is "plug and play" and runs on a computer the
> user already has.
> 
> Years ago the few Linux users were wondering how Linux could be more widely
> used.  The answer was to hide the fact that it was Linux.  That is what
> Google did with Android.  Now Android (Linux) is the most used OS in the
> world having more than twice as many users as Microsoft Windows.
> 
Not really a fair comparison.  Most of the Android OS usage is in telephones 
and a lesser number in tablets or televisions so although there may be more 
Linux run systems (especially when you add in routers) the actual laptop/PC 
workstation world is still mostly Windows with Apple (now also with a Linux 
underbody IIRC) coming in second.

> So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that is
> slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL files
> or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required it
> will always remain a niche product.
>
I also don't think it's correct to compare a 3D printer with a Mill.  There's 
so much more to using a mill than there is to threading filament and 
downloading a file from a web site to create a cute little figurine.

And if you take a step back and look at the fundamentals, LinuxCNC is an 
Operating System.   And the better question to answer first is how does an OS 
fit into a CNC control system.  What's needed and what isn't?  Can the Free 
RTOS running on a 32 bit processor do exactly the same thing?

In that sense Chris is dead on.  A modern 32 bit processor with appropriate 
hardware might well cover 75% of all CNC applications.  But the ones with 
Resolvers or high res encoders etc. will still require that custom hardware 
provided by suppliers like Jon Elson or Peter Wallace.  

I'm not going to turn this into a rant about Linux command lines but when you 
think about it much of working with LinuxCNC is essentially still 'command 
line' oriented.  It's just typing lots of G-Code over and over.

Other than the 5 button array on the Arduino 3D printer controller how much 
G-Code do you need to enter to 3D print something?  None.  My Ardunio front 
panel doesn’t even let me do that nor does Octoprint (at least not very easily) 
and I'm running that on a Pi2.

Change over to MACH3 and there are a very large number of 'Wizards'.  Want to 
surface something to a given depth.  Fill in the blanks, it creates the G-Code, 
you load it and run it.  Yes, an expert LinuxCNC user can whip up a G-Code 
program just as fast.  

But that's not the point.  

[Emc-users] printed harmonic drive

[Gene Heskett]

I've now had a chance to test the 3 I've made, and have come to the 
conclusion that compared to the rear thing, its not going to work all 
that well.  Slathered in coconut oil, there is still a bit of stiction 
that effects the linearity of the move, and the improved flexgear, still 
in TPU, is worse at displaying this "stiction" than the TPU version of 
the original code.

Hubert sent me a spool of PETG, which combined with a printer that maybe 
needs help at the higher temps, but I was only able to make semi usable 
parts if the flow I used for PLA and TPU was slowed to around 50%. I 
might make one flexgear out of TEPG but doubt I can make one with usable 
splines, it just slobbers all over.

One of the targets was motorizing the hand cranks on a BS-1 clone, and I 
bought some worm gear assemblies but they turned out to be too big to be 
mounted on the  side of a BS-1 to drive its worm.

Then today, wandeering around on ebay, I stumbled over a 100 watt 
motor/worm drive/encoder combo designed for estate gates and such, so I 
bought one of those to play "what if" with. I figure with 2 worms in 
series, its gonna run to  where ever I tell it, even under cutting load.  
Thats what I'm hoping for.

After all trouble I had making bearing carriers out of TEPG, and 3 
restarts on the original .stl for the flexgear, I stopped the print, ran 
z up the pole, warmed the nozzle up to 255C, and pinched the end of the 
nozzle with about 4 layers of paper towel to clear the ball of twine it 
was dragging around, and adding the supports back into cura, it has 
suddenly started to behave itself, and is taking flow at 110% now, and 
laying up a pretty clean lay.  But seeing as how thats a 12 hour build, 
we'll reserve judgement until its done.  If it does the whole build like 
this is looking, I'm encouraged.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Mark Wendt]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <
> albertson.ch...@gmail.com
> > >
> > wrote
> > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that
> > is
> > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
> > files
> > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required
> it
> > > will always remain a niche product.
> > >
> >
> > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
> >
>
> I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
> that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
> mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
> of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.
>

And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
and best CNC machine controller.

Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Martin Dobbins]

> Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
>

I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.

I can imagine Tormach's dilemma when they decided to switch their customers off 
a Windows interface onto Linuxcnc.
Small wonder they contracted to have Path Pilot written, so that their 
customers don't need to know that HAL is anything other than a disembodied 
voice from a movie 

Perhaps PP is a beginning not an end?

Martin






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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[N]

> On Thursday 03 September 2020 22:23:07 Ken Strauss wrote:
> 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2020 1:03 AM
> > > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: N [mailto:nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com]
> > > > Sent: August-31-20 9:21 PM
> > > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter
> > > >
> > > > > I have one of these.
> > > > > Fowler 54-575-600 Electronic Edge Finder with Cylindrical Tip,
> > > > > 0.200"
> > >
> > > Stylus, 1/2" Shank
> > >
> > > > >  I use it with the Shumatech  DRO to find edges or the center of
> >
> > something
> >
> > > round.  The DRO-350 has a feature for that.  Eventually
> > >
> > > > I'll wire up a cable that can be sensed by LinuxCNC to detect the
> > > > edge
> > >
> > > automatically.
> > >
> > > > Was also thinking about a cable, however need to connect it each
> > > > time
> > >
> > > otherwise tool changer will slowly turn it into a twisted cable.
> > >
> > > > Expect they are more or less equally good as 3D taster but much
> > > > cheaper.
> > >
> > > Nicklas
> > >
> > > You make a good point.  It should be possible to make some sort of
> > > holder which fits around a TT mill holder shank.  The holder could
> > > have a small
> >
> > Blue
> >
> > > Tooth Low Power module that signals contact.
> > >
> > > The issue might be response time.   Or noise that delays the contact
> >
> > signal
> >
> > > long enough to break the probe.
> >
> > It takes *VERY* little overtravel to destroy the tip of a small
> > carbide endmill. I wouldn't consider touching off onto a plate lacking
> > some sort of movement after contact with the endmill.
> >
> I have used a small bit of pcb material for a G38.2 contact. With the 
> spindle turning backwards, its .0001" accurate and lasts till I goof up 
> and destroy it. It registers contact for TLO setting with .0001"

>From the discussion I conclude electric contact measurement is good and these 
>these cheap edge detectors are probably very good. And even though first time 
>I run machine I made a rather deep dent in a piece of wood with the chuck, I 
>could hear the wood break I make conclusion there is no need for spring if 
>right done with a little bit of care.


Nicklas Karlsson


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Valerio Bellizzomi]

On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 10:02 -0700, Chris Albertson wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson  > >
> > wrote
> > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that
> > is
> > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
> > files
> > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required it
> > > will always remain a niche product.
> > >
> >
> > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
> >
> 
> I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
> that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
> mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
> of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.

This is questionable. I used a PC with UNIX in 1984 and all our clients
had UNIX. No graphics interface, only command line, databases and ad-hoc
graphic programs. This was before Windows, we had UNIX and DOS in
dual-boot on some PCs, UNIX on the servers. However the Apple Mac
already had a graphics interface :-)






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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Chris Albertson]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson  >
> wrote
> > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that
> is
> > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
> files
> > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required it
> > will always remain a niche product.
> >
>
> Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
>

I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.

>
> Mark
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[Cristian Bontas]

Hi

I've been using a piece of soft Al plate for setting the Z zero for 
several years. I have a button in Axis that runs a Z probe and then sets 
G54 Z zero based on the known thickness of the plate.
There are no contact tool marks on the surface, and I'm using carbide 
wood cutters. Sharp enough that there are a few marks where I've 
accidentally hit the cutter when removing the plate.


On 9/4/2020 17:40, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Friday 04 September 2020 08:09:33 andy pugh wrote:


On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 12:37, Gene Heskett  wrote:

Raw, freshly cut alu will oxidize to a thick enough coat of
alox than can be punched thru by 5 volts in milliseconds after the
machining tool cutting edge has passed.

Where do you get this from?

Take some aluminium from your stock and your multimeter. Test this
theory.

I have, you have to press hard enough to pierce the oxide coat. Thats is
not much, but its not at all hard to take a bare wire and lay on the alu
plate without getting a connection. This oxide coat may be less
than .1" thick if fresh, but it is an insulator. Long term, as in
years or with chemical help such as an anodizing solution, it can reach
a 400 volt breakdown withstand. Insulating sheets for power transistors
with better thermal conductivity than mica or kapton have been made out
of it.

Something like 95% of the heating of an alu workpiece while machining it
is not the friction of the cutting tool, but the invisible burning
(oxidation) of the freshly exposed alu when its exposed to the oxygen in
our air.  In the presence of airborn oxygen, its a very active metal.
That oxide, seals the surface and slows the speed of the reaction by
many orders by the time the air has had access to it in the first
millisecond after the cutting edge has passed. Most coolants are water
based, but best tool life will be obtained if the cut surface is wetted
by a deluge of coolant. Its not the coolant but the instant wetting and
sealing of the air away from that cut surface even if the coolant is
H2O, but that H2O should not be agitated to encourage its oxygenation.
Even a mist, just enough to wet it, driven by enough air pressure to get
it at the alu as the tool turns on past it is a huge help, all out of
proportion to the amount of coolant in that mist. I suspect that a major
portion of the commercial coolants sold, is about a penny's worth of
kodak photoflow per gallon, making that mix many hundreds of
times "wetter". Kodak sells it (or did then) in two strengths, with the
strongest is an ounce per gallon makes it 1200 times wetter than regular
water.

I am familiar with that product because I spent from the later 40's to
the early 80's with my own color darkroom where ever I was living. I
shot weddings etc for enough to break even and keep me in supplies, even
compounded by own color print developer, substituting sodium carbonate
for the alkaline accelerator instead of the sodium hydroxide usually
used, so it was a little slower, but I could process 8 copies of a good
shot without having to chase the effects of a fading developer sitting
mixed in a 100F bath.  It was always something I could do, until digital
cameras finally replaced the SLR as the utility camera in your Aunt
Tillys hands.  It took a while to fine tune it, but that has now put
good quality, nearly archival quality digital color prints on the output
tray of several million printers today.

Cheers, Gene Heskett




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Mark Wendt]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> The real problem with the wider adoption of LinuxCNCis that it is there kit
> of parts and does not work out of the box.   After that it gets worse, the
> parts are unfamiliar to most people.
>
> What is needed before it will see wide use is a re-architecture.   Move the
> real-time components to open-source hardware and then remove the need for
> real-time Linux and make the non-real-time parts cross platform
> Linux/Windows/Mac.3D printers are not unlike milling machines. Note how
> they work, you can use any computer you own and all the real-time stuff is
> on a circuit card that is not inside your computer.  These printers run
> g-code and move MUCH faster then mills
>
> After you do this the system is "plug and play" and runs on a computer the
> user already has.
>
> Years ago the few Linux users were wondering how Linux could be more widely
> used.  The answer was to hide the fact that it was Linux.  That is what
> Google did with Android.  Now Android (Linux) is the most used OS in the
> world having more than twice as many users as Microsoft Windows.
>
> So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that is
> slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL files
> or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required it
> will always remain a niche product.
>

Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Chris Albertson]

The real problem with the wider adoption of LinuxCNCis that it is there kit
of parts and does not work out of the box.   After that it gets worse, the
parts are unfamiliar to most people.

What is needed before it will see wide use is a re-architecture.   Move the
real-time components to open-source hardware and then remove the need for
real-time Linux and make the non-real-time parts cross platform
Linux/Windows/Mac.3D printers are not unlike milling machines. Note how
they work, you can use any computer you own and all the real-time stuff is
on a circuit card that is not inside your computer.  These printers run
g-code and move MUCH faster then mills

After you do this the system is "plug and play" and runs on a computer the
user already has.

Years ago the few Linux users were wondering how Linux could be more widely
used.  The answer was to hide the fact that it was Linux.  That is what
Google did with Android.  Now Android (Linux) is the most used OS in the
world having more than twice as many users as Microsoft Windows.

So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that is
slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL files
or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required it
will always remain a niche product.

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 6:28 AM Greg Bernard  wrote:

> That's one reason I suggested working on making LinuxCNC more appealing to
> the Maker community. Younger folks would be likely to take up the challenge
> of making such things happen.
>
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020, 2:59 AM andy pugh  wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 07:04, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> > >
> > > If You are thinking of conversational, you might look at Fanuc Macro B
> > > for ideas. Its a tool they had for conversational programming. Pretty
> > > old school appearance but the idea of a macro dialog  interpreter
> > > inside the control was very leading edge in the 80's
> >
> > We have a selection of such things, including ngcgui and nativecam
> > (and my own lathe macros). But they aren't _particularly_ graphically
> > slick.
> > They might actually be just as functional, but they aren't shiny stuff
> > for the tablet users.
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 14:28, Greg Bernard  wrote:
>
> That's one reason I suggested working on making LinuxCNC more appealing to
> the Maker community. Younger folks would be likely to take up the challenge
> of making such things happen.

A bit of a catch-22

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 15:43, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
> I have, you have to press hard enough to pierce the oxide coat. Thats is
> not much, but its not at all hard to take a bare wire and lay on the alu
> plate without getting a connection.

Before I posted the message I had done the test. I used a piece of
aluminium that I machined several years ago (a euro-cylinder re-keying
shoe)

I did not have to press hard, and certainly not hard enough to damage
the surface.

If aluminium oxide was as perfect an insulator as you believe, then
anodising would not work, it would stop immediately.

Unless your Aluminum is a whole different material to our Aluminium.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[Karl Jacobs]

That is actually a factor of 100 too thick, if I translate your 0.1"
right to 245nm. A fresh aluminum surface oxidizes to about 2nm within
hours and then continues to grow logarithmically with time. At 2nm,
there is even enough tunnelling current through the oxide without
needing dielectric breakdown. (I work on and with detectors using that).
Easy to punch with a tool without even a scratch.
Cheers,
Karl

Am 04.09.2020 um 16:40 schrieb Gene Heskett:
> This oxide coat may be less
> than .1" thick if fresh,


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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 04 September 2020 09:36:54 Ed wrote:

> On 9/4/20 3:17 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 06:18, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> >> Now, if I could just make it work for woodwork.
> >
> > There are quite a few designs like this around, that give you a
> > probeable hole for the corner and conductive replica edges:
> > http://www.themakersguide.com/home/products/triple-edge-finder-2
>
> This design has been around for a LONG time. Old line toolmakers
> called them "chairs". Work great for setting up from the corner of a
> vise or whatnot.  Mostly they were used with dial test indicators on
> jig borers and such. This piece is grossly over priced.
>
+ 1, or more.

> Ed.
>
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 04 September 2020 08:09:33 andy pugh wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 12:37, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Raw, freshly cut alu will oxidize to a thick enough coat of
> > alox than can be punched thru by 5 volts in milliseconds after the
> > machining tool cutting edge has passed.
>
> Where do you get this from?
>
> Take some aluminium from your stock and your multimeter. Test this
> theory.

I have, you have to press hard enough to pierce the oxide coat. Thats is 
not much, but its not at all hard to take a bare wire and lay on the alu 
plate without getting a connection. This oxide coat may be less 
than .1" thick if fresh, but it is an insulator. Long term, as in 
years or with chemical help such as an anodizing solution, it can reach 
a 400 volt breakdown withstand. Insulating sheets for power transistors 
with better thermal conductivity than mica or kapton have been made out 
of it. 

Something like 95% of the heating of an alu workpiece while machining it 
is not the friction of the cutting tool, but the invisible burning 
(oxidation) of the freshly exposed alu when its exposed to the oxygen in 
our air.  In the presence of airborn oxygen, its a very active metal.  
That oxide, seals the surface and slows the speed of the reaction by 
many orders by the time the air has had access to it in the first 
millisecond after the cutting edge has passed. Most coolants are water 
based, but best tool life will be obtained if the cut surface is wetted 
by a deluge of coolant. Its not the coolant but the instant wetting and 
sealing of the air away from that cut surface even if the coolant is 
H2O, but that H2O should not be agitated to encourage its oxygenation. 
Even a mist, just enough to wet it, driven by enough air pressure to get 
it at the alu as the tool turns on past it is a huge help, all out of 
proportion to the amount of coolant in that mist. I suspect that a major 
portion of the commercial coolants sold, is about a penny's worth of 
kodak photoflow per gallon, making that mix many hundreds of 
times "wetter". Kodak sells it (or did then) in two strengths, with the 
strongest is an ounce per gallon makes it 1200 times wetter than regular 
water.

I am familiar with that product because I spent from the later 40's to 
the early 80's with my own color darkroom where ever I was living. I 
shot weddings etc for enough to break even and keep me in supplies, even 
compounded by own color print developer, substituting sodium carbonate 
for the alkaline accelerator instead of the sodium hydroxide usually 
used, so it was a little slower, but I could process 8 copies of a good 
shot without having to chase the effects of a fading developer sitting 
mixed in a 100F bath.  It was always something I could do, until digital 
cameras finally replaced the SLR as the utility camera in your Aunt 
Tillys hands.  It took a while to fine tune it, but that has now put 
good quality, nearly archival quality digital color prints on the output 
tray of several million printers today.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 14:40, Ed  wrote:

>  This piece is grossly over priced.

Yikes! I hadn't seen the price. I was really just looking for a good
photo on the assumption that we would all make our own.

(In Gene's case presumably out of gold to prevent non-conductive oxide layers)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[Ed]

On 9/4/20 3:17 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 06:18, Gene Heskett  wrote:


Now, if I could just make it work for woodwork.

There are quite a few designs like this around, that give you a
probeable hole for the corner and conductive replica edges:
http://www.themakersguide.com/home/products/triple-edge-finder-2

This design has been around for a LONG time. Old line toolmakers called 
them "chairs". Work great for setting up from the corner of a vise or 
whatnot.  Mostly they were used with dial test indicators on jig borers 
and such. This piece is grossly over priced.



Ed.




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[Greg Bernard]

That's one reason I suggested working on making LinuxCNC more appealing to
the Maker community. Younger folks would be likely to take up the challenge
of making such things happen.

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020, 2:59 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 07:04, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> >
> > If You are thinking of conversational, you might look at Fanuc Macro B
> > for ideas. Its a tool they had for conversational programming. Pretty
> > old school appearance but the idea of a macro dialog  interpreter
> > inside the control was very leading edge in the 80's
>
> We have a selection of such things, including ngcgui and nativecam
> (and my own lathe macros). But they aren't _particularly_ graphically
> slick.
> They might actually be just as functional, but they aren't shiny stuff
> for the tablet users.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 12:37, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Raw, freshly cut alu will oxidize to a thick enough coat of
> alox than can be punched thru by 5 volts in milliseconds after the
> machining tool cutting edge has passed.

Where do you get this from?

Take some aluminium from your stock and your multimeter. Test this theory.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 04 September 2020 04:17:25 andy pugh wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 06:18, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Now, if I could just make it work for woodwork.
>
> There are quite a few designs like this around, that give you a
> probeable hole for the corner and conductive replica edges:
> http://www.themakersguide.com/home/products/triple-edge-finder-2

Thats cute.  And any of us could make it. 

Just one problem. Looks like its made of alu, and alox is a perfect 
insulator the tool will have to punch thru in order to make that 
contact. Raw, freshly cut alu will oxidize to a thick enough coat of 
alox than can be punched thru by 5 volts in milliseconds after the 
machining tool cutting edge has passed. Surface damage will be done by 
the time ohmic contact is established to both the jig and to the tool 
being used for contact.

So I wonder what he is making it out of in order to assure long time use. 
Steel, if allowed to rust would suffer the same effects over a much 
longer period of time as rust isn't a very good conductor either.

Copper would work far longer than alu. It registers contact before any 
damage mark is made, but that obviously isn't copper, so what it it?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 19:22, andy pugh  wrote:

> I have just spent nearly £8 on one from Amazon as an experiment.

This turns out to not be even as good as my low expectations.

I had anticipated that the top plate was on a spring to avoid tool
damage, but it is entirely solid. I can't decide now whether to set it
up for use, or to make something better.
Or, at least, better confirming to my opinions on what such a thing
should be like.

I could just use one of my Zeiss touch probes in a suitable holder.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Tool presetter

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 06:18, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Now, if I could just make it work for woodwork.

There are quite a few designs like this around, that give you a
probeable hole for the corner and conductive replica edges:
http://www.themakersguide.com/home/products/triple-edge-finder-2

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Work coordinate offsets produced by Fusion360

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 01:44, andrew beck  wrote:
>
> whats the difference andy?

Nothing practical. I re-cast the nested ifs as a switch.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 07:04, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
>
> If You are thinking of conversational, you might look at Fanuc Macro B
> for ideas. Its a tool they had for conversational programming. Pretty
> old school appearance but the idea of a macro dialog  interpreter
> inside the control was very leading edge in the 80's

We have a selection of such things, including ngcgui and nativecam
(and my own lathe macros). But they aren't _particularly_ graphically
slick.
They might actually be just as functional, but they aren't shiny stuff
for the tablet users.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

[TJoseph Powderly]

If You are thinking of conversational, you might look at Fanuc Macro B
for ideas. Its a tool they had for conversational programming. Pretty
old school appearance but the idea of a macro dialog  interpreter
inside the control was very leading edge in the 80's/ I wrote dialogs
for fanuc 8 9 11 in those days. Its like Ray & Matt's CP1 for
LinuxCNC, sorta. Of course there is the Heidenhain Conversational
model, but thats the primary programming method, not an add-on.
tomp

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 4:30 AM Chris Albertson
 wrote:
>
> The problem is not the touch screen.  That is easy and is very little
> different from a mouse.  Your code has to respond to input in the same way.
>
> The hard part, by far is designing a good conversational system.  Tormach
> ha "path pilot".  Something like that requires a lot of thinking and
> planning.  Writing the software is the easy part, the design is harder.
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM N  wrote:
>
> > > On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 at 22:42, Kirk Wallace 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Given enough development time and money, my guess is that a LinuxCNC
> > GUI
> > > > could be very similar. The only basically new feature is the swipe and
> > > > gesture touch feature, which Linux/LinuxCNC should be able to use. Or,
> > > > ... I may be way off base.
> > >
> > >
> > > No, I think it is absolutely possible. There may even be programmers
> > > out there who work on iPad apps who would look at that and say "yes,
> > > that's pretty simple".
> > > But I don't imagine it's any of us.
> >
> > Programming might be simple, to move 4-8 ton heavy machines without
> > spending to much money is harder and then they need a dry home with enough
> > power.
> >
> > Nicklas Karlsson
> >
> >
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>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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