Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Sam Sokolik]

I will give it a try - printing a 200 tooth and a taller 200 tooth flex
gear.

http://electronicsam.com/images/greenmachine/IMG_20210126_22.jpg

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 8:07 PM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> I could read it well enough to see that they only quote prices.  The
> old saying is that if you have to ask the price you can't afford it.
>
> I can see where plastic gearboxes might be a good solution in perhaps food
> service or other places where you can't have contamination from
> lubricants.  Or maybe if you need to have it work while in contact with
> saltwater.
>
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 3:27 PM andy pugh  wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 22:38, Chris Albertson  >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Igus makes 1st rate stuff.
> > ...
> > > My German language skill is minimal
> > > but it appears prices are quoted, not posted online.
> >
> > English: https://www.igus.co.uk/product/20413
> >
> > (Also available in dozens of other languages by pressing the language
> > button top-right)
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Chris Albertson]

I could read it well enough to see that they only quote prices.  The
old saying is that if you have to ask the price you can't afford it.

I can see where plastic gearboxes might be a good solution in perhaps food
service or other places where you can't have contamination from
lubricants.  Or maybe if you need to have it work while in contact with
saltwater.

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 3:27 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 22:38, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Igus makes 1st rate stuff.
> ...
> > My German language skill is minimal
> > but it appears prices are quoted, not posted online.
>
> English: https://www.igus.co.uk/product/20413
>
> (Also available in dozens of other languages by pressing the language
> button top-right)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Frank Tkalcevic]

In the "technical" section it says Efficiency 40% for the 28:1 ratio.  Are 
harmonic drives that bad, or is that a plastic limitation?


-Original Message-
From: Rene Hopf via Emc-users [mailto:emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2021 8:38 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Cc: Rene Hopf
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

Igus makes plastic harmonic drives: 

https://www.igus.de/product/20413


> On 26. Jan 2021, at 21:59, Chris Albertson  wrote:
> 
> ?I just did t quick Google and found several companies who make belts
> "sliced to order" in any width.   6" wide if you like
> 
> The other way to "print" a flex cup is the print a female mold and fill the
> mold with urethane and kevlar fiber.
> 
> I'm working on a robotic/prosthetic hand that uses this technique,  Many of
> the parts are made with a very strong kind of urethane.  This stuff really
> takes a beating.   This is really a good way to use a 3D printer, You can
> make multi-part molds that come apart to allow the molded parts to be
> removed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 12:13 PM Todd Zuercher 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> For the belt idea, it might work better to invert the whole thing,  So you
>> have the belt teeth in and one gear with two fewer teeth than the belt,
>> then the follower wheels on the outside of the belt compressing it to mesh
>> with the smaller gear.  The hardest part might be finding a belt wide
>> enough to reliably flex between the two gear diameters.  (Something tells
>> me this sounds better than it can actually work in practice.)
>> 
>> Todd Zuercher
>> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
>> 630 Henry Street
>> Dalton, Ohio 44618
>> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Sam Sokolik 
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 2:41 PM
>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?
>> 
>> plus - you fold one inside out - the pitch doesn't match up very well.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 1:30 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:
>>> 
 On Tuesday 26 January 2021 13:04:11 Chris Albertson wrote:
>>> 
 The weak link on all 3D printed harmonic drives is the flex cup.  The
 plastic fails after some hours of use.The best design I've seen to
 overcome this is to NOT print the flex cup.  They used a wide double
 side timing belt for the inner teeth.
 
 The thing that very few You tubers do when designing 3D printed
 machines is to not simply copy the design of metal parts but start
 the design from the ground up knowing they will be using plastic.
 Plastic has very different strength and stiffness to volume ratios.
 So if your part looks like the metal equivalent it is a good clue
 you are doing "eyeball engineering" and your experience with metal
 is influencing your design.
 
 If you need to print a reduction gear and need a really big ratio
 the Cycloidic reduction system really does work better especially if
 the rolling parts are sealed bearing units that are press-fit into
 the plastic.
 
 That said, I've printed parts in plastic to directly replace metal
 or even rubber and I just have to accept the very short lifetime and
 low strength. Plastic is a good material to verify ideas quickly.
 
 In any case, use a timing belt for the flex wall and it might last
 30 years.
 
>>> But that brings up the tooth profile problem.  I've not seen a timing
>>> belt that resembles the triangular splines?
>>> 
 On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 8:47 PM Sam Sokolik 
>> wrote:
> I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have
> possibility...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlpkmEEhFqc
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>> --
>>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>>> - Louis D. Brandeis
>>> Genes Web page 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Emc-users mailing list
>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
> ___
> 

Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 22:38, Chris Albertson  wrote:
>
> Igus makes 1st rate stuff.
...
> My German language skill is minimal
> but it appears prices are quoted, not posted online.

English: https://www.igus.co.uk/product/20413

(Also available in dozens of other languages by pressing the language
button top-right)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Ralph Stirling]

I asked Igus for pricing on the cycloidal gearboxes back
in 2018, and the rep said he would ask hq, but never
got back to me.  I don't know that they have really done
much with these.

-- Ralph

From: Chris Albertson [albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 2:36 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

Igus makes 1st rate stuff.  Igus linear bearing is a common upgrade for
cheap 3D printers.   They are more accurate and smoother than steel ball
linear bearings Any idea on the price.  My German language skill is minimal
but it appears prices are quoted, not posted online.


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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Sam Sokolik]

andy - thank you.  I am going to have to draw up the 200 tooth outside gear
and see how that works..  (the diameter of the 200 tooth would have to be
the same diameter as the 202...)   What is nice about what I have right now
is the pitch of the 2 gears is the same - so you can engage a lot of
teeth.(like if you cut the inside flex gear it would wrap all the way
around the outside gear and mesh)

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 4:23 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 20:13, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
>
> > Is there a reason you need triangular splines?  I think round ones might
> > work better.  They are the best shape for timing pulleys
>
> The motion of the flexspline is quite complicated. HD are rather proud
> of their special profile.
> Here is the actual flex-spline from my broken HD.
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/mmJdebQD1QY538xY6
>
> It's definitely not a normal gear or belt tooth shape.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Chris Albertson]

Igus makes 1st rate stuff.  Igus linear bearing is a common upgrade for
cheap 3D printers.   They are more accurate and smoother than steel ball
linear bearings Any idea on the price.  My German language skill is minimal
but it appears prices are quoted, not posted online.

In any case if I were to use a harmonic drive it would not be a "bolt-on" I
would design the housing at part of the robot skeleton.  This is the
advantage of 3D printing.  Can save a lot of weight and space by
double-using a structure.   Hence my interest in printing these.   Someday
I hope it will be possible to make good quality four-leg machine the size
of a dog at a reasonable cost.


On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 1:41 PM Rene Hopf via Emc-users <
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Igus makes plastic harmonic drives:
>
> https://www.igus.de/product/20413
>
> --

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 20:13, Chris Albertson  wrote:

> Is there a reason you need triangular splines?  I think round ones might
> work better.  They are the best shape for timing pulleys

The motion of the flexspline is quite complicated. HD are rather proud
of their special profile.
Here is the actual flex-spline from my broken HD.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mmJdebQD1QY538xY6

It's definitely not a normal gear or belt tooth shape.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 26 January 2021 15:11:02 Chris Albertson wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > But that brings up the tooth profile problem.  I've not seen a
> > timing belt that resembles the triangular splines?
>
> Is there a reason you need triangular splines? 

Triangular shapes would slide down and back the slope better and smoother 
as the bearings are forcing the mesh.  But the belt shouldn't be rubber 
or similar elastomer faced as it will need some sort of chicken fat for 
lube if its going to be at all efFicient at the sliding. And the lube 
should be compatible.  I's seen cisco recommended but my results weren't 
really that good, although it didn't seem to hurt either.

> I think round ones 
> might work better.  They are the best shape for timing pulleys
Round is good where it fits, round to round doesn't
> You are NOT going to find ready-to-print STL files.No one has done
> a really good job on this yet.  I'd suggest a from-scratch design that
> starts with a stock belt and builds the rest of the product around the
> belt.

I'd agree if we can find a belt with the correct tooth profile. But I'd 
probably have to argue with the helt makers to get it while waving the 
checkbook. NREngineering costs would eat our lunch for the first 100, 
102 tooth spline belts 4 or 5" long and say 2" wide to give it room in 
he middle to flex with an inch between 2,  1/2" wide pulleys. Even 
somebody hungry would need 50-100k$ just to get started on such a beast.

But the bearngs pushing in from the outside sounds like a good idea. The 
input and output shafts would have to be coaxial, on the same face or 
maybe that would be a good excuse to put a bearing on both ends of the 
input shaft.  Details to be worked out. But first, a suitable belt. 
Without that, the idea is dead just from the cogging we would get from 
todays tooth profiles.
 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Todd Zuercher]

Trying to wrap my noodle around, this.  Two gears with the same pitch but 
different tooth counts won't have the same diameters.  So do they fudge the 
pitches on the two so the diameters are the same, that way the band only has to 
flex in a single axis?  Not sure how well that would work on the coarser 
pitches of a rubber toothed belt, or what it might do to backlash and wear.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: andy pugh  
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 3:52 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 17:52, Sam Sokolik  wrote:
>
> andy - that seems like a neat experiment...  Do you have an example of 
> the HD version?

Yes, as I said, I own an example of it.

https://www.harmonicdrive.net/products/component-sets/pancake/fb-2

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for 
the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Rene Hopf via Emc-users]

Igus makes plastic harmonic drives: 

https://www.igus.de/product/20413


> On 26. Jan 2021, at 21:59, Chris Albertson  wrote:
> 
> I just did t quick Google and found several companies who make belts
> "sliced to order" in any width.   6" wide if you like
> 
> The other way to "print" a flex cup is the print a female mold and fill the
> mold with urethane and kevlar fiber.
> 
> I'm working on a robotic/prosthetic hand that uses this technique,  Many of
> the parts are made with a very strong kind of urethane.  This stuff really
> takes a beating.   This is really a good way to use a 3D printer, You can
> make multi-part molds that come apart to allow the molded parts to be
> removed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 12:13 PM Todd Zuercher 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> For the belt idea, it might work better to invert the whole thing,  So you
>> have the belt teeth in and one gear with two fewer teeth than the belt,
>> then the follower wheels on the outside of the belt compressing it to mesh
>> with the smaller gear.  The hardest part might be finding a belt wide
>> enough to reliably flex between the two gear diameters.  (Something tells
>> me this sounds better than it can actually work in practice.)
>> 
>> Todd Zuercher
>> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
>> 630 Henry Street
>> Dalton, Ohio 44618
>> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Sam Sokolik 
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 2:41 PM
>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?
>> 
>> plus - you fold one inside out - the pitch doesn't match up very well.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 1:30 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:
>>> 
 On Tuesday 26 January 2021 13:04:11 Chris Albertson wrote:
>>> 
 The weak link on all 3D printed harmonic drives is the flex cup.  The
 plastic fails after some hours of use.The best design I've seen to
 overcome this is to NOT print the flex cup.  They used a wide double
 side timing belt for the inner teeth.
 
 The thing that very few You tubers do when designing 3D printed
 machines is to not simply copy the design of metal parts but start
 the design from the ground up knowing they will be using plastic.
 Plastic has very different strength and stiffness to volume ratios.
 So if your part looks like the metal equivalent it is a good clue
 you are doing "eyeball engineering" and your experience with metal
 is influencing your design.
 
 If you need to print a reduction gear and need a really big ratio
 the Cycloidic reduction system really does work better especially if
 the rolling parts are sealed bearing units that are press-fit into
 the plastic.
 
 That said, I've printed parts in plastic to directly replace metal
 or even rubber and I just have to accept the very short lifetime and
 low strength. Plastic is a good material to verify ideas quickly.
 
 In any case, use a timing belt for the flex wall and it might last
 30 years.
 
>>> But that brings up the tooth profile problem.  I've not seen a timing
>>> belt that resembles the triangular splines?
>>> 
 On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 8:47 PM Sam Sokolik 
>> wrote:
> I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have
> possibility...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlpkmEEhFqc
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>> --
>>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>>> - Louis D. Brandeis
>>> Genes Web page 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Emc-users mailing list
>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Chris Albertson]

I just did t quick Google and found several companies who make belts
"sliced to order" in any width.   6" wide if you like

The other way to "print" a flex cup is the print a female mold and fill the
mold with urethane and kevlar fiber.

I'm working on a robotic/prosthetic hand that uses this technique,  Many of
the parts are made with a very strong kind of urethane.  This stuff really
takes a beating.   This is really a good way to use a 3D printer, You can
make multi-part molds that come apart to allow the molded parts to be
removed.






On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 12:13 PM Todd Zuercher 
wrote:

> For the belt idea, it might work better to invert the whole thing,  So you
> have the belt teeth in and one gear with two fewer teeth than the belt,
> then the follower wheels on the outside of the belt compressing it to mesh
> with the smaller gear.  The hardest part might be finding a belt wide
> enough to reliably flex between the two gear diameters.  (Something tells
> me this sounds better than it can actually work in practice.)
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Sokolik 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 2:41 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?
>
> plus - you fold one inside out - the pitch doesn't match up very well.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 1:30 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday 26 January 2021 13:04:11 Chris Albertson wrote:
> >
> > > The weak link on all 3D printed harmonic drives is the flex cup.  The
> > > plastic fails after some hours of use.The best design I've seen to
> > > overcome this is to NOT print the flex cup.  They used a wide double
> > > side timing belt for the inner teeth.
> > >
> > > The thing that very few You tubers do when designing 3D printed
> > > machines is to not simply copy the design of metal parts but start
> > > the design from the ground up knowing they will be using plastic.
> > > Plastic has very different strength and stiffness to volume ratios.
> > > So if your part looks like the metal equivalent it is a good clue
> > > you are doing "eyeball engineering" and your experience with metal
> > > is influencing your design.
> > >
> > > If you need to print a reduction gear and need a really big ratio
> > > the Cycloidic reduction system really does work better especially if
> > > the rolling parts are sealed bearing units that are press-fit into
> > > the plastic.
> > >
> > > That said, I've printed parts in plastic to directly replace metal
> > > or even rubber and I just have to accept the very short lifetime and
> > > low strength. Plastic is a good material to verify ideas quickly.
> > >
> > > In any case, use a timing belt for the flex wall and it might last
> > > 30 years.
> > >
> > But that brings up the tooth profile problem.  I've not seen a timing
> > belt that resembles the triangular splines?
> >
> > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 8:47 PM Sam Sokolik 
> wrote:
> > > > I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have
> > > > possibility...
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlpkmEEhFqc
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
> >  - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
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>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 17:52, Sam Sokolik  wrote:
>
> andy - that seems like a neat experiment...  Do you have an example of the
> HD version?

Yes, as I said, I own an example of it.

https://www.harmonicdrive.net/products/component-sets/pancake/fb-2

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] digitizing tablet

[Chris Albertson]

It depends on what you are doing with the tablet.   If it is
non-critical an iPad or even a cell phone works, you simply run a remote
display and your finger is a mouse.   Almost everyone already is one.

But if used for drawing, wacon  is the best and used are not expensive.
I've got two of them.  Even the really old wacoms still work with Linux.

Apple trackpads work on Linux too.   They are excellent but maybe not big
enough for critical work.

That said, I don't use them much with Linux.  I use a normal mouse for CAD
work and have an Apple Mac for photoshop-type stuff.

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 8:34 AM  wrote:

> who is using a digitizing tablet
> what are you using
> advice using it with linux
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Todd Zuercher]

For the belt idea, it might work better to invert the whole thing,  So you have 
the belt teeth in and one gear with two fewer teeth than the belt, then the 
follower wheels on the outside of the belt compressing it to mesh with the 
smaller gear.  The hardest part might be finding a belt wide enough to reliably 
flex between the two gear diameters.  (Something tells me this sounds better 
than it can actually work in practice.)
 
Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Sam Sokolik  
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 2:41 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

plus - you fold one inside out - the pitch doesn't match up very well.


On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 1:30 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Tuesday 26 January 2021 13:04:11 Chris Albertson wrote:
>
> > The weak link on all 3D printed harmonic drives is the flex cup.  The
> > plastic fails after some hours of use.The best design I've seen to
> > overcome this is to NOT print the flex cup.  They used a wide double 
> > side timing belt for the inner teeth.
> >
> > The thing that very few You tubers do when designing 3D printed 
> > machines is to not simply copy the design of metal parts but start 
> > the design from the ground up knowing they will be using plastic.
> > Plastic has very different strength and stiffness to volume ratios.
> > So if your part looks like the metal equivalent it is a good clue 
> > you are doing "eyeball engineering" and your experience with metal 
> > is influencing your design.
> >
> > If you need to print a reduction gear and need a really big ratio 
> > the Cycloidic reduction system really does work better especially if 
> > the rolling parts are sealed bearing units that are press-fit into 
> > the plastic.
> >
> > That said, I've printed parts in plastic to directly replace metal 
> > or even rubber and I just have to accept the very short lifetime and 
> > low strength. Plastic is a good material to verify ideas quickly.
> >
> > In any case, use a timing belt for the flex wall and it might last 
> > 30 years.
> >
> But that brings up the tooth profile problem.  I've not seen a timing 
> belt that resembles the triangular splines?
>
> > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 8:47 PM Sam Sokolik  wrote:
> > > I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have 
> > > possibility...
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlpkmEEhFqc
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Chris Albertson]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
> But that brings up the tooth profile problem.  I've not seen a timing
> belt that resembles the triangular splines?
>

Is there a reason you need triangular splines?  I think round ones might
work better.  They are the best shape for timing pulleys

You are NOT going to find ready-to-print STL files.No one has done a
really good job on this yet.  I'd suggest a from-scratch design that starts
with a stock belt and builds the rest of the product around the belt.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Sam Sokolik]

plus - you fold one inside out - the pitch doesn't match up very well.


On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 1:30 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Tuesday 26 January 2021 13:04:11 Chris Albertson wrote:
>
> > The weak link on all 3D printed harmonic drives is the flex cup.  The
> > plastic fails after some hours of use.The best design I've seen to
> > overcome this is to NOT print the flex cup.  They used a wide double
> > side timing belt for the inner teeth.
> >
> > The thing that very few You tubers do when designing 3D printed
> > machines is to not simply copy the design of metal parts but start the
> > design from the ground up knowing they will be using plastic.
> > Plastic has very different strength and stiffness to volume ratios.
> > So if your part looks like the metal equivalent it is a good clue you
> > are doing "eyeball engineering" and your experience with metal is
> > influencing your design.
> >
> > If you need to print a reduction gear and need a really big ratio the
> > Cycloidic reduction system really does work better especially if the
> > rolling parts are sealed bearing units that are press-fit into the
> > plastic.
> >
> > That said, I've printed parts in plastic to directly replace metal or
> > even rubber and I just have to accept the very short lifetime and low
> > strength. Plastic is a good material to verify ideas quickly.
> >
> > In any case, use a timing belt for the flex wall and it might last 30
> > years.
> >
> But that brings up the tooth profile problem.  I've not seen a timing
> belt that resembles the triangular splines?
>
> > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 8:47 PM Sam Sokolik  wrote:
> > > I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have
> > > possibility...
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlpkmEEhFqc
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] digitizing tablet

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 26 January 2021 14:32:43 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Tuesday 26 January 2021 13:33:38 Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > On Tue, 2021-01-26 at 10:31 -0600, brainf...@posteo.net wrote:
> > > who is using a digitizing tablet
> > > what are you using
> > > advice using it with linux
> >
> > Debian has drivers for the Wacom tablets.
>
> Works with an Art Pad II ?? I've got one, from my Amiga days.
>
Scratch that. I got it out to check it, and the pen is missing.
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] digitizing tablet

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 26 January 2021 13:33:38 Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

> On Tue, 2021-01-26 at 10:31 -0600, brainf...@posteo.net wrote:
> > who is using a digitizing tablet
> > what are you using
> > advice using it with linux
>
> Debian has drivers for the Wacom tablets.
>
Works with an Art Pad II ?? I've got one, from my Amiga days.

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 26 January 2021 13:04:11 Chris Albertson wrote:

> The weak link on all 3D printed harmonic drives is the flex cup.  The
> plastic fails after some hours of use.The best design I've seen to
> overcome this is to NOT print the flex cup.  They used a wide double
> side timing belt for the inner teeth.
>
> The thing that very few You tubers do when designing 3D printed
> machines is to not simply copy the design of metal parts but start the
> design from the ground up knowing they will be using plastic.  
> Plastic has very different strength and stiffness to volume ratios. 
> So if your part looks like the metal equivalent it is a good clue you
> are doing "eyeball engineering" and your experience with metal is
> influencing your design.
>
> If you need to print a reduction gear and need a really big ratio the
> Cycloidic reduction system really does work better especially if the
> rolling parts are sealed bearing units that are press-fit into the
> plastic.
>
> That said, I've printed parts in plastic to directly replace metal or
> even rubber and I just have to accept the very short lifetime and low
> strength. Plastic is a good material to verify ideas quickly.
>
> In any case, use a timing belt for the flex wall and it might last 30
> years.
>
But that brings up the tooth profile problem.  I've not seen a timing 
belt that resembles the triangular splines?

> On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 8:47 PM Sam Sokolik  wrote:
> > I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have
> > possibility...
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlpkmEEhFqc
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 26 January 2021 12:24:02 andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 04:47, Sam Sokolik  wrote:
> > I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have
> > possibility...
>
> It might be worth trying the style without a cup.
> You have two internally toothed gears and a double-height flex-spline.
> The gears have 202 and 200 teeth, the flex-spline has 200.
> That means that the flex-spline is static relative to the 200 tooth
> gear, but moves the 202 tooth gear.
> apart from anything else this means that the input and output are
> through the chunky internal gears, not the flex element.
> (I have a metal version of this, from HD, I didn't make it up)

Now that sounds like an interesting design. Anybody know where I could 
get files to feed my ender3?

Thsnks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] digitizing tablet

[Valerio Bellizzomi]

On Tue, 2021-01-26 at 10:31 -0600, brainf...@posteo.net wrote:
> who is using a digitizing tablet
> what are you using
> advice using it with linux

Debian has drivers for the Wacom tablets.




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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Chris Albertson]

The weak link on all 3D printed harmonic drives is the flex cup.  The
plastic fails after some hours of use.The best design I've seen to
overcome this is to NOT print the flex cup.  They used a wide double side
timing belt for the inner teeth.

The thing that very few You tubers do when designing 3D printed machines is
to not simply copy the design of metal parts but start the design from the
ground up knowing they will be using plastic.   Plastic has very different
strength and stiffness to volume ratios.  So if your part looks like the
metal equivalent it is a good clue you are doing "eyeball engineering" and
your experience with metal is influencing your design.

If you need to print a reduction gear and need a really big ratio the
Cycloidic reduction system really does work better especially if the
rolling parts are sealed bearing units that are press-fit into the plastic.

That said, I've printed parts in plastic to directly replace metal or even
rubber and I just have to accept the very short lifetime and low strength.
 Plastic is a good material to verify ideas quickly.

In any case, use a timing belt for the flex wall and it might last 30 years.

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 8:47 PM Sam Sokolik  wrote:

> I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have possibility...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlpkmEEhFqc
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Sam Sokolik]

andy - that seems like a neat experiment...  Do you have an example of the
HD version?

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 11:26 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 04:47, Sam Sokolik  wrote:
> >
> > I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have possibility...
>
> It might be worth trying the style without a cup.
> You have two internally toothed gears and a double-height flex-spline.
> The gears have 202 and 200 teeth, the flex-spline has 200.
> That means that the flex-spline is static relative to the 200 tooth
> gear, but moves the 202 tooth gear.
> apart from anything else this means that the input and output are
> through the chunky internal gears, not the flex element.
> (I have a metal version of this, from HD, I didn't make it up)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 04:47, Sam Sokolik  wrote:
>
> I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have possibility...

It might be worth trying the style without a cup.
You have two internally toothed gears and a double-height flex-spline.
The gears have 202 and 200 teeth, the flex-spline has 200.
That means that the flex-spline is static relative to the 200 tooth
gear, but moves the 202 tooth gear.
apart from anything else this means that the input and output are
through the chunky internal gears, not the flex element.
(I have a metal version of this, from HD, I didn't make it up)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 26 January 2021 06:00:46 Sven Wesley wrote:

> Den tis 26 jan. 2021 kl 05:47 skrev Sam Sokolik :
> > I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have
> > possibility...
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlpkmEEhFqc
>
> I can totally see that drive on my home made trunnion table!
>
I can't. I spent a couple months trying to make one that would survive 
and overnight run with a nema-17 motor spinning it, no load, overnight 
at 500 rpms. Out of every sort of string I could buy including TPU, 
which was too soft but still failed by over flexing the the spline cup, 
either delaminating the walls, or breaking it off at the bottom of the 
splines, or more regularly, at the junction of the spline wall and the 
disk connected to the outout shaft.  The spline that Sam had in his 
hands with 6 bearings was the general model but the cup would need to be 
2x or more deeper just to absorb the flex without fatiguing the plastic 
to the eventual failure point. Higher ratios would help because it would 
reduce the flex with the smaller splines, but if I were to try with that 
version, the drive disk at the bottom of the cup would be thickness 
profiled to make that "hinge joint" stronger and the disk thinner.

There is reason those commercial versions make the spline as thin and out 
of a springy steel. And I don't think you can duplicate it in plastic. 
Those quick failures are the reason I put a servo motor on the bs-1.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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[Emc-users] digitizing tablet

[brainfart]

who is using a digitizing tablet
what are you using
advice using it with linux


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Re: [Emc-users] Classicladder Sequential

[Todd Zuercher]

I was just wondering if there were any examples of how the GRAFCET programming 
might be used in Classiclader.  Thought that if I saw how it might be used I 
might then understand exactly what it was then.  And if any one had actually 
used it with Linuxcnc to know that it actually works with our version of CL.

Thanks for the links Andy I'll look them over and see if I can actually 
understand any of it.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: andy pugh  
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 9:23 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Classicladder Sequential


On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 06:07, Dave Cole  wrote:
>
> Do you mean writing a sequencer in Classic Ladder?
> As in step logic?

CL supports state based sequential logic, using GRAFCET.

http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/html/ladder/classic_ladder_es.html#_grafcet_programming

There are some "example_sequential" files on the (a?) classicladder github.
https://github.com/cz172638/classicladder-1/tree/main/projects_examples

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for 
the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Sam Sokolik]

I could probably make the outside gear pretty easy by shaping it on a mill
and rotary table.  Or make version .1 with both plastic gears then use it
to make the outside gear.  (outside - as in the non-flex one)

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 5:03 AM Sven Wesley  wrote:

> Den tis 26 jan. 2021 kl 05:47 skrev Sam Sokolik :
>
> > I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have possibility...
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlpkmEEhFqc
> >
> >
> I can totally see that drive on my home made trunnion table!
>
> ___
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>

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Re: [Emc-users] Classicladder Sequential

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 06:07, Dave Cole  wrote:
>
> Do you mean writing a sequencer in Classic Ladder?
> As in step logic?

CL supports state based sequential logic, using GRAFCET.

http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/html/ladder/classic_ladder_es.html#_grafcet_programming

There are some "example_sequential" files on the (a?) classicladder github.
https://github.com/cz172638/classicladder-1/tree/main/projects_examples

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Maybe a minimally printed harmonic drive?

[Sven Wesley]

Den tis 26 jan. 2021 kl 05:47 skrev Sam Sokolik :

> I am sure the torque is limited - but I feel it might have possibility...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlpkmEEhFqc
>
>
I can totally see that drive on my home made trunnion table!

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