subject:"\[Emc\-users\] Interesting GUI"

On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 at 17:16, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> E: The repository 'http://www.linuxcnc.org/dists buster Release' does not

For non-linuxCNC debs you want "buster base"

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-06 Thread Gene Heskett

On Sunday 06 September 2020 11:08:51 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 at 11:10, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > > sudo apt-get install python-rsvg
> >
> > no installation candidate for the pi's buster.
>
> I am assuming that you don't have the linuxcnc repository configured?
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/dists/buster/base/binary-armhf/

Humm,, no, that ..list is spelt .tsil so its ignored. keeps my builds
away from yours and vice versa.  I'll restore the name extension long 
enough to get it.  Except that does not work either, can you give me the 
exact deb line for linuxcnc.list?
A sudo apt update gets me:
Err:5 http://www.linuxcnc.org/dists buster Release
  404  Not Found [IP: 69.163.218.14 80]
and
E: The repository 'http://www.linuxcnc.org/dists buster Release' does not 
have a Release file.
N: Updating from such a repository can't be done securely, and is 
therefore disabled by default.

Thanks Andy

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 at 11:10, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> > sudo apt-get install python-rsvg
> no installation candidate for the pi's buster.

I am assuming that you don't have the linuxcnc repository configured?
http://www.linuxcnc.org/dists/buster/base/binary-armhf/

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-06 Thread Mark

On 9/5/20 3:22 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

to me that there are some nice gcode senders out there that could do what
the noisy people want with less work than adapting linuxcnc to be a gcode
sender with an as-of-yet undefined distributed control interface on the
other end of a non-real time network interface.

Granted, that's a whole lot of work.
Eric Keller

I think first it would be appropriate to not use words like whine or clamor or
noise. A comment was made about the people who joined the group thinking about
LinuxCNC and then left. It's easy to misconstrue some of these comments or
words as demeaning or debasing and in general the Linux community has a bit of
a reputation of replying to posts with statements like:

"This information is on line or has already been answered so do your homework and
don't bother us with uniformed questions"

Sadly, when someone is starting they don't know what they don't know and don't
know where to look to find out what they don't know.

Add to that the time line of the internet and postings and the amount of out of
date material that often shows up far more often because it's been referenced
often it's really difficult for someone new to get a sense of what to do or how
things work.

For example, I'm sure there are LinuxCNC users out there who have no idea of
what a joint is in LinuxCNC. And there's the crux of the problem with a
hobbyist who wants to add CNC to his equipment. They might add a 4th axis.
Certainly not interested in a 16 joint robot. (Well they might be...)

So that new guy does his research, looks at the web site after googling "LinuxCNC
Axis" and ends up here:
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/axis.html

His friend has MACH3 on WIN-XP but he doesn't and really doesn't want to try
and get WIN-XP running on the surplus PC he has for the CNC shop.

His friend shows him all the wizards that make simple operations on the mill trivial. So he reads
the doc and can't find an equivalent. It's not an AXIS menu item. He asks a question like
"Is there a menu entry or some Wizards like in MACH3?" and is told: "Learn G-Code.
You'll need it anyway no matter what".

Notice that isn't an answer to his question.

Another common type of response is "Yes you can add all sorts of screens and things
like wizards to LinuxCNC." Nothing more.

Remember, this new user has never written a line of software in his life. He's
picked up metal working as a hobby because he likes model trains and would like
to build a steam engine now that he's close to retirement. (or some other
reason that a person buys a mill and a lathe).

So I don't think it's whining or complaining to suggest that a nice feature to add to the
AXIS interface would be another menu entry for called say "Operations". And
fill it in with one item to perform a surfacing operation G-Code program that is then
loaded.

Then in the manual add a section that shows how to add to that list. One
possible approach is to make that list an XML file which can be edited with
free programs like XMLNotepad. There's probably something like that in the
Linux world too.

The main menu entry is "Operations"

Underneath that the name of an operation like "Surfacing" and the file name of
the program that is run to create the dialog and interact with a user.

The "Operations" dialog on save returns a pointer to the file name and then
just like opening a G-Code file it's loaded.

Now AXIS has the ability to run Wizards written in any language. I've used
this example because I'd like to see something like the MACH3 wizards in the
Axis interface.

But I haven't a clue where to start and since I don't do development on Linux
systems (other than Pi or Beagle) I couldn't even rebuild Axis if I wanted to.
Ie. I don't have a development PC that has Linux on it. But I can write
using Lazarus and test all these types of dialogs on a WIN-7 or WIN-10 PC and
on a Pi.

And at least I write software for a living. That hobbyist I've mentioned just
leaves the list and buys something else. Doesn't say goodbye. Just leaves.

And perhaps we shouldn't care.

John Dammeyer

John,

What else would you call it? They aren't asking for a feature or two or
three. All we ever hear is that the "PC is dead, we need a complete new
way of doing things, and LinuxCNC is not what we want. Give us want we
want!" And this is coming from supposedly accomplished coders.

No problem with new folks coming on board and asking questions, or
requesting features, or trying to learn. That's not what we're talking
about though.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-06 Thread Gene Heskett

On Sunday 06 September 2020 04:04:29 andy pugh wrote:

> sudo apt-get install python-rsvg

no installation candidate for the pi's buster.

3 out of 4 machines cannot find it to install it.

wheezy apparently got it from the archive, but the other 2 wintel boxes 
probably need that added to the sources.list.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-06 Thread N

> нд, 6 вер. 2020 о 01:35 andy pugh  пише:
> 
> >
> > I wonder if installing NativeCAM by default would be an idea?
> > (the problem there is that it is not part of the LinuxCNC project,
> > it's hosted separately)
> >
> 
> That is a great idea!
> We know that LinuxCNC has almost endless possibilities, but bringing those
> possibilities to work can be cumbersome, and sometimes virtually impossible
> for a novice. And it usually takes a lot of time.
> So most people would like to try, but eventually prefer something simpler...
> 
> Shortly, it would be good to have at least one config where NativeCAM is
> enabled.

Prefer the CAD program for CAM.

Nicklas Karlsson


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 at 01:47, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> > Have you used NativeCAM?
> >
> > ( and have you seen sim-gmoccapy-lathe_configs-lathe_macro? )
> >
> Nope.  Not if it doesn't run on WIN-7.

It runs inside LinuxCNC, so of course it doesn't work with Win-7.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-06 Thread andrew beck

Gotta vote for that too!

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020, 6:57 PM Andrew  wrote:

> нд, 6 вер. 2020 о 01:35 andy pugh  пише:
>
> >
> > I wonder if installing NativeCAM by default would be an idea?
> > (the problem there is that it is not part of the LinuxCNC project,
> > it's hosted separately)
> >
>
> That is a great idea!
> We know that LinuxCNC has almost endless possibilities, but bringing those
> possibilities to work can be cumbersome, and sometimes virtually impossible
> for a novice. And it usually takes a lot of time.
> So most people would like to try, but eventually prefer something
> simpler...
>
> Shortly, it would be good to have at least one config where NativeCAM is
> enabled.
>
> WBR,
> Andrew
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 at 01:20, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> > ( and have you seen sim-gmoccapy-lathe_configs-lathe_macro? )
> Doesn't run here, missing gtk stuffs.

sudo apt-get install python-rsvg

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-06 Thread Andrew

нд, 6 вер. 2020 о 01:35 andy pugh  пише:

>
> I wonder if installing NativeCAM by default would be an idea?
> (the problem there is that it is not part of the LinuxCNC project,
> it's hosted separately)
>

That is a great idea!
We know that LinuxCNC has almost endless possibilities, but bringing those
possibilities to work can be cumbersome, and sometimes virtually impossible
for a novice. And it usually takes a lot of time.
So most people would like to try, but eventually prefer something simpler...

Shortly, it would be good to have at least one config where NativeCAM is
enabled.

WBR,
Andrew

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-05 Thread Eric Keller

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 6:35 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> I wonder if installing NativeCAM by default would be an idea?
> (the problem there is that it is not part of the LinuxCNC project,
> it's hosted separately)
>
>  I like the looks of NativeCam but I wonder if the widgets from QTpyVCP
aren't closer to mach widgets.  More widgets needed right now, but the
probing and circular hole drill pattern ones look great.
https://www.qtpyvcp.com/showcase/mill_vcps.html

I looked at the install instructions for QTpyVCP, and I really would rather
not tell a newbie to do that.  Not sure how hard it would be to add to
linuxcnc at some point.
Eric

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 at 00:15, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > > I wonder if installing NativeCAM by default would be an idea?
> > > (the problem there is that it is not part of the LinuxCNC project,
> > > it's hosted separately)
> > >
> > > --
> > You end up standing in front of the mill screen doing CAD work.
> 
> Have you used NativeCAM?
> 
> ( and have you seen sim-gmoccapy-lathe_configs-lathe_macro? )
> 
Nope.  Not if it doesn't run on WIN-7.  I use AlibreCAD and AlibreCAM.  Never 
could wrap my brain around Autocad or some of the other CAD software.  
AlibreCAD was the first time I found I could actually be productive drawing 
things.

Found some links.  I'll look into it.
John




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Saturday 05 September 2020 19:54:52 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 at 00:15, John Dammeyer  
wrote:
> > > I wonder if installing NativeCAM by default would be an idea?
> > > (the problem there is that it is not part of the LinuxCNC project,
> > > it's hosted separately)
> > >
> > > --
> >
> > You end up standing in front of the mill screen doing CAD work.
>
> Have you used NativeCAM?
>
> ( and have you seen sim-gmoccapy-lathe_configs-lathe_macro? )
Doesn't run here, missing gtk stuffs.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Saturday 05 September 2020 18:32:04 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 at 20:25, John Dammeyer  
wrote:
> > So I don't think it's whining or complaining to suggest that a nice
> > feature to add to the AXIS interface would be another menu entry for
> > called say "Operations".  And fill it in with one item to perform a
> > surfacing operation G-Code program that is then loaded.
>
> I wonder if installing NativeCAM by default would be an idea?
> (the problem there is that it is not part of the LinuxCNC project,
> it's hosted separately)

And I've had problems with updates killing it. Not currently enabled 
here.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-05 Thread andy pugh

On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 at 00:15, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> > I wonder if installing NativeCAM by default would be an idea?
> > (the problem there is that it is not part of the LinuxCNC project,
> > it's hosted separately)
> >
> > --
> You end up standing in front of the mill screen doing CAD work.

Have you used NativeCAM?

( and have you seen sim-gmoccapy-lathe_configs-lathe_macro? )

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 at 20:25, John Dammeyer <  
> jo...@autoartisans.com> wrote:
> 
> > So I don't think it's whining or complaining to suggest that a nice feature 
> > to add to the AXIS interface would be another menu entry
> for called say "Operations".  And fill it in with one item to perform a 
> surfacing operation G-Code program that is then loaded.
> 
> I wonder if installing NativeCAM by default would be an idea?
> (the problem there is that it is not part of the LinuxCNC project,
> it's hosted separately)
> 
> --
You end up standing in front of the mill screen doing CAD work.  The whole 
point of wizards is that you don't.  The Lazarus program I posted earlier which 
IIRC was ported from a command line program someone posted, for boring holes 
using R or I/J G-Codes is similar without the graphical image of the tool path.

Hopefully these screenshots will make it through.

Here's the menu from Wizards.
I've selected Surfacing with tool down in X whatever that means.  Perhaps the 
direction of the passes.  

Here's the result when clicking on generate G Code.  It's an awful mess with 
the parameters all over the place.  Really needs some human factors 
engineering.  But the key is the same sort of parameters that I use with 
AlibreCAM for setting the various 2D patterns are here.
One thing missing is whether both or only climb milling is desired.

And here's the G-Code.  Assuming it follows the drawing of the tool path and 
the tool height is set correctly the surfacing operation is done.  No need to 
draw anything.  Just clamp it in the vise.   Move the tool over to roughly 
where you want the XY corner to be and rehome for G54 or whatever.   Touch off 
to the top or again however you decide to set Z and post the G-Code.

Could it be better.  Probably.  If you only do this once every 3 months it's 
certainly faster than using G-Code.   It's just an idea.  And if the parameters 
are sticky by adding that save button then graphical output isn't needed.  Once 
it's loaded that's already done by AXIS so why do it again.   If you don't like 
what it looks like you can rerun the wizard with the saved parameters and tweak 
things.  

Now it's true that in MACH then with the tool path already displayed you can 
tweak before you leave or save.  But again.  This all just an idea.

F10
G00 Z0.1
G00 X-1.25 Y-0.25
G00 Z0
G01 Y-0.25
G01 X3.25
G01 Y0.025
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y0.3
G01 X3.25
G01 Y0.575
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y0.85
G01 X3.25
G01 Y1.125
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y1.4
G01 X3.25
G01 Y1.675
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y1.95
G01 X3.25
G01 Y2.225
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y2.5
G01 X3.25
G01 Y2.775
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y3.05
G01 X3.25
G01 Y3.325
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y3.6
G01 X3.25
G01 Y3.875
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y4.15
G01 X3.25
G01 Y4.425
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y4.7
G01 X3.25
G01 Y4.975
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y5.25
G01 X3.25
G00 Z0.1
G00 X-1.25 Y-0.25
G00 Z-0.25
F5
G01 Y-0.25
G01 X3.25
G01 Y0.025
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y0.3
G01 X3.25
G01 Y0.575
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y0.85
G01 X3.25
G01 Y1.125
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y1.4
G01 X3.25
G01 Y1.675
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y1.95
G01 X3.25
G01 Y2.225
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y2.5
G01 X3.25
G01 Y2.775
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y3.05
G01 X3.25
G01 Y3.325
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y3.6
G01 X3.25
G01 Y3.875
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y4.15
G01 X3.25
G01 Y4.425
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y4.7
G01 X3.25
G01 Y4.975
G01 X-0.25
G01 Y5.25
G01 X3.25
G00 Z0.1
G00 X-1.25 Y-0.25
M30
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-05 Thread andy pugh

On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 at 20:25, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> So I don't think it's whining or complaining to suggest that a nice feature 
> to add to the AXIS interface would be another menu entry for called say 
> "Operations".  And fill it in with one item to perform a surfacing operation 
> G-Code program that is then loaded.

I wonder if installing NativeCAM by default would be an idea?
(the problem there is that it is not part of the LinuxCNC project,
it's hosted separately)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Saturday 05 September 2020 15:22:44 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > From: Eric Keller [mailto:keller...@gmail.com]
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 12:11 PM Mark  wrote:
> > > Folks seem to clamor quite a
> > > bit how all this is going to die out and we need to change this,
> > > that and every other thing to enable all these other platforms. 
> > > Yet, none of them seem to want to grab the software and change it
> > > to their wants or needs.  It always seems the developers must
> > > change their wants.  Tormach proved that wasn't necessary.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > It's not too many folks, but the same ones make a lot of noise. 
> > > It seems
> >
> > to me that there are some nice gcode senders out there that could do
> > what the noisy people want with less work than adapting linuxcnc to
> > be a gcode sender with an as-of-yet undefined distributed control
> > interface on the other end of a non-real time network interface.
> >
> > Granted, that's a whole lot of work.
> > Eric Keller
>
> I think first it would be appropriate to not use words like whine or
> clamor or noise.  A comment was made about the people who joined the
> group thinking about LinuxCNC and then left.  It's easy to misconstrue
> some of these comments or words as demeaning or debasing and in
> general the Linux community has a bit of a reputation of replying to
> posts with statements like:
>
> "This information is on line or has already been answered so do your
> homework and don't bother us with uniformed questions"
>
> Sadly, when someone is starting they don't know what they don't know
> and don't know where to look to find out what they don't know.
>
> Add to that the time line of the internet and postings and the amount
> of out of date material that often shows up far more often because
> it's been referenced often it's really difficult for someone new to
> get a sense of what to do or how things work.
>
> For example, I'm sure there are LinuxCNC users out there who have no
> idea of what a joint is in LinuxCNC.  And there's the crux of the
> problem with a hobbyist who wants to add CNC to his equipment.  They
> might add a 4th axis.  Certainly not interested in a 16 joint robot.
> (Well they might be...)
>
> So that new guy does his research, looks at the web site after
> googling "LinuxCNC Axis" and ends up here:
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/axis.html
>
> His friend has MACH3 on WIN-XP but he doesn't and really doesn't want
> to try and get WIN-XP running on the surplus PC he has for the CNC
> shop.
>
> His friend shows him all the wizards that make simple operations on
> the mill trivial.  So he reads the doc and can't find an equivalent. 
> It's not an AXIS menu item.  He asks a question like "Is there a menu
> entry or some Wizards like in MACH3?"  and is told: "Learn G-Code. 
> You'll need it anyway no matter what".
>
> Notice that isn't an answer to his question.
>
> Another common type of response is "Yes you can add all sorts of
> screens and things like wizards to LinuxCNC."  Nothing more.
>
> Remember, this new user has never written a line of software in his
> life.  He's picked up metal working as a hobby because he likes model
> trains and would like to build a steam engine now that he's close to
> retirement.  (or some other reason that a person buys a mill and a
> lathe).
>
> So I don't think it's whining or complaining to suggest that a nice
> feature to add to the AXIS interface would be another menu entry for
> called say "Operations".  And fill it in with one item to perform a
> surfacing operation G-Code program that is then loaded.
>
> Then in the manual add a section that shows how to add to that list. 
> One possible approach is to make that list an XML file which can be
> edited with free programs like XMLNotepad.  There's probably something
> like that in the Linux world too.
>
> The main menu entry is "Operations"
>
> Underneath that the name of an operation like "Surfacing" and the file
> name of the program that is run to create the dialog and interact with
> a user.
>
> The "Operations" dialog on save returns a pointer to the file name and
> then just like opening a G-Code file it's loaded.
>
> Now AXIS has the ability to run Wizards written in any language.  I've
> used this example because I'd like to see something like the MACH3
> wizards in the Axis interface.
>
> But I haven't a clue where to start and since I don't do development
> on Linux systems (other than Pi or Beagle) I couldn't even rebuild
> Axis if I wanted to.  Ie.  I don't have a development PC that has
> Linux on it.   But I can write using Lazarus and test all these types
> of dialogs on a WIN-7 or WIN-10 PC and on a Pi.
>
> And at least I write software for a living.  That hobbyist I've
> mentioned just leaves the list and buys something else.  Doesn't say
> goodbye.  Just leaves.
>
> And perhaps we shouldn't care.
>
> John Dammeyer
>
But I think we shuld care, John. Care enough to put some effort into 
interesting

Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

> From: Eric Keller [mailto:keller...@gmail.com]
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 12:11 PM Mark  wrote:
> 
> > Folks seem to clamor quite a
> > bit how all this is going to die out and we need to change this, that
> > and every other thing to enable all these other platforms.  Yet, none of
> > them seem to want to grab the software and change it to their wants or
> > needs.  It always seems the developers must change their wants.  Tormach
> > proved that wasn't necessary.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > It's not too many folks, but the same ones make a lot of noise.  It seems
> to me that there are some nice gcode senders out there that could do what
> the noisy people want with less work than adapting linuxcnc to be a gcode
> sender with an as-of-yet undefined distributed control interface on the
> other end of a non-real time network interface.
> 
> Granted, that's a whole lot of work.
> Eric Keller

I think first it would be appropriate to not use words like whine or clamor or 
noise.  A comment was made about the people who joined the group thinking about 
LinuxCNC and then left.  It's easy to misconstrue some of these comments or 
words as demeaning or debasing and in general the Linux community has a bit of 
a reputation of replying to posts with statements like:

"This information is on line or has already been answered so do your homework 
and don't bother us with uniformed questions"

Sadly, when someone is starting they don't know what they don't know and don't 
know where to look to find out what they don't know.  

Add to that the time line of the internet and postings and the amount of out of 
date material that often shows up far more often because it's been referenced 
often it's really difficult for someone new to get a sense of what to do or how 
things work.

For example, I'm sure there are LinuxCNC users out there who have no idea of 
what a joint is in LinuxCNC.  And there's the crux of the problem with a 
hobbyist who wants to add CNC to his equipment.  They might add a 4th axis.  
Certainly not interested in a 16 joint robot. (Well they might be...)

So that new guy does his research, looks at the web site after googling 
"LinuxCNC Axis" and ends up here:
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/axis.html

His friend has MACH3 on WIN-XP but he doesn't and really doesn't want to try 
and get WIN-XP running on the surplus PC he has for the CNC shop. 

His friend shows him all the wizards that make simple operations on the mill 
trivial.  So he reads the doc and can't find an equivalent.  It's not an AXIS 
menu item.  He asks a question like "Is there a menu entry or some Wizards like 
in MACH3?"  and is told: "Learn G-Code.  You'll need it anyway no matter what". 

Notice that isn't an answer to his question.  

Another common type of response is "Yes you can add all sorts of screens and 
things like wizards to LinuxCNC."  Nothing more.

Remember, this new user has never written a line of software in his life.  He's 
picked up metal working as a hobby because he likes model trains and would like 
to build a steam engine now that he's close to retirement.  (or some other 
reason that a person buys a mill and a lathe).

So I don't think it's whining or complaining to suggest that a nice feature to 
add to the AXIS interface would be another menu entry for called say 
"Operations".  And fill it in with one item to perform a surfacing operation 
G-Code program that is then loaded.  

Then in the manual add a section that shows how to add to that list.  One 
possible approach is to make that list an XML file which can be edited with 
free programs like XMLNotepad.  There's probably something like that in the 
Linux world too.

The main menu entry is "Operations"

Underneath that the name of an operation like "Surfacing" and the file name of 
the program that is run to create the dialog and interact with a user.  

The "Operations" dialog on save returns a pointer to the file name and then 
just like opening a G-Code file it's loaded.

Now AXIS has the ability to run Wizards written in any language.  I've used 
this example because I'd like to see something like the MACH3 wizards in the 
Axis interface. 

But I haven't a clue where to start and since I don't do development on Linux 
systems (other than Pi or Beagle) I couldn't even rebuild Axis if I wanted to.  
Ie.  I don't have a development PC that has Linux on it.   But I can write 
using Lazarus and test all these types of dialogs on a WIN-7 or WIN-10 PC and 
on a Pi.

And at least I write software for a living.  That hobbyist I've mentioned just 
leaves the list and buys something else.  Doesn't say goodbye.  Just leaves.  

And perhaps we shouldn't care.

John Dammeyer

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-05 Thread Eric Keller

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 12:11 PM Mark  wrote:

> Folks seem to clamor quite a
> bit how all this is going to die out and we need to change this, that
> and every other thing to enable all these other platforms.  Yet, none of
> them seem to want to grab the software and change it to their wants or
> needs.  It always seems the developers must change their wants.  Tormach
> proved that wasn't necessary.
>
> Mark
>
> It's not too many folks, but the same ones make a lot of noise.  It seems
to me that there are some nice gcode senders out there that could do what
the noisy people want with less work than adapting linuxcnc to be a gcode
sender with an as-of-yet undefined distributed control interface on the
other end of a non-real time network interface.

Granted, that's a whole lot of work.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-05 Thread Lester Caine


On 05/09/2020 16:46, John Dammeyer wrote:

OTOH, I have one of these because I don't trust wireless for running the 
machine.
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32844453793.html


I'm running one of those ... perfect and the magnets keep it in place on 
the side of the mill enclosure ...


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Saturday 05 September 2020 11:46:22 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > > Or that they were cheap and were installed on a tablet that seems
> > > to be ubiquitous these days.  Unfortunately, the interface, both
> > > input and output systems in the tablets leave a lot to be desired
> > > in the context of a machine shop, at least from what I've seen of
> > > tablets.  I just don't want to depend on wireless communications
> > > to control a machine that can hurt me or someone else or cause
> > > other kinds of damage.
> >
> > Need to send message periodically to keep machine moving and no risk
> > picking up noise or signal from somewhere else. Probably need some
> > kind of encryption and randomness to solve this. On top of this are
> > the ordinary risk what happen then something fails, used long enough
> > and it will sooner or later, at least me quite often use things
> > until they break.
>
> There will be many who use these and state there is no problem.
> https://www.banggood.com/Machifit-Wireless-Electronic-CNC-Handwheel-MA
>CH3-6-Axis-Pulse-Pendant-MPG-for-CNC-Engraving-Machine-p-1365963.html
>
> OTOH, I have one of these because I don't trust wireless for running
> the machine. https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32844453793.html
> I don't even trust myself running the machine as a gouge in the vise
> will attest. But there was support for it and it works reasonably
> well. http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/xhc-hb04.1.html
>
> Again with the dual boot PC and either MACH3 or LinuxCNC.
>
> John

I've been using logitek k310 wireless keyboards (and their cheap 
mini-mouse) for many years. Battery life has been the huge majority of 
the problems, and the ability to pick up the keyboard and take it the 3 
or 4 feet to the machine without dragging a cable is like mastercard, 
priceless.

Cross talk has also been a non- problem despite 3 machines in about 12 
foot of space.

Why the K310? Simple, square sided keys don't get jammed down by swarf 
near as often as conventional tapered sided keys where a bit of swarf 
follows the key down, then wedges it in the down position.  Acer has one 
totaaly without a keymask thats pretty good in a swarfy environment, but 
it's A, wired, and B, twice the logiteks desk real estate requirements, 
and C, I've never been able to buy another like it, and finally D, it 
has so many extra keys you cannot pick it up and carry it without 
pressing some #@ multimedia key as they go clear to the edge of it.

>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-05 Thread Mark


On 9/5/20 11:46 AM, John Dammeyer wrote:


Or that they were cheap and were installed on a tablet that seems to be
ubiquitous these days.  Unfortunately, the interface, both input and
output systems in the tablets leave a lot to be desired in the context
of a machine shop, at least from what I've seen of tablets.  I just
don't want to depend on wireless communications to control a machine
that can hurt me or someone else or cause other kinds of damage.

Need to send message periodically to keep machine moving and no risk picking up 
noise or signal from somewhere else. Probably
need some kind of encryption and randomness to solve this. On top of this are 
the ordinary risk what happen then something fails,
used long enough and it will sooner or later, at least me quite often use 
things until they break.

There will be many who use these and state there is no problem.
https://www.banggood.com/Machifit-Wireless-Electronic-CNC-Handwheel-MACH3-6-Axis-Pulse-Pendant-MPG-for-CNC-Engraving-Machine-p-1365963.html

OTOH, I have one of these because I don't trust wireless for running the 
machine.
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32844453793.html
I don't even trust myself running the machine as a gouge in the vise will 
attest. But there was support for it and it works reasonably well.
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/xhc-hb04.1.html

Again with the dual boot PC and either MACH3 or LinuxCNC.

John



John,

You sort of made my point.  That banggood product is made for a small 
engraving machine that someone could run on their kitchen table.  I'd 
like to think Sam's machines are a wee bit different and would require 
an industrial strength controller like LinuxCNC.  I've never seen an 
industrial MPG using wireless or bluetooth to control a machine.  Not 
saying there may be none out there, but every instance I've ever seen 
they are hardwired into the machine.


I think that's kind of the point some folks seem to be missing here.  
The original reason for EMC was to create an industrial strength 
controller to control CNC machines.  That folks have been able to adapt 
LinuxCNC to run hobby machines is a bonus and has increased the 
popularity of the control software.  If folks want to modify it further 
to run on other platforms for their hobby enjoyment that's all well and 
good. But to expect the developers to change the software completely 
away from it's original and ongoing vision without putting skin the game 
to me is just a little bit incredulous.  Folks seem to clamor quite a 
bit how all this is going to die out and we need to change this, that 
and every other thing to enable all these other platforms.  Yet, none of 
them seem to want to grab the software and change it to their wants or 
needs.  It always seems the developers must change their wants.  Tormach 
proved that wasn't necessary.


Mark



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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-05 Thread Mark


On 9/5/20 10:40 AM, N wrote:




Or that they were cheap and were installed on a tablet that seems to be
ubiquitous these days.  Unfortunately, the interface, both input and
output systems in the tablets leave a lot to be desired in the context
of a machine shop, at least from what I've seen of tablets.  I just
don't want to depend on wireless communications to control a machine
that can hurt me or someone else or cause other kinds of damage.

Need to send message periodically to keep machine moving and no risk picking up 
noise or signal from somewhere else. Probably need some kind of encryption and 
randomness to solve this. On top of this are the ordinary risk what happen then 
something fails, used long enough and it will sooner or later, at least me 
quite often use things until they break.



All that doesn't matter if the interference in a typical machine shop is 
constantly blocking, interfering or overwhelming the signal.  There's 
always EMI in a shop from a lot of sources.  Why take the chance, and 
not use a hardwired connection?


Mark



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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

> > Or that they were cheap and were installed on a tablet that seems to be
> > ubiquitous these days.  Unfortunately, the interface, both input and
> > output systems in the tablets leave a lot to be desired in the context
> > of a machine shop, at least from what I've seen of tablets.  I just
> > don't want to depend on wireless communications to control a machine
> > that can hurt me or someone else or cause other kinds of damage.
> 
> Need to send message periodically to keep machine moving and no risk picking 
> up noise or signal from somewhere else. Probably
> need some kind of encryption and randomness to solve this. On top of this are 
> the ordinary risk what happen then something fails,
> used long enough and it will sooner or later, at least me quite often use 
> things until they break.

There will be many who use these and state there is no problem.
https://www.banggood.com/Machifit-Wireless-Electronic-CNC-Handwheel-MACH3-6-Axis-Pulse-Pendant-MPG-for-CNC-Engraving-Machine-p-1365963.html

OTOH, I have one of these because I don't trust wireless for running the 
machine.  
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32844453793.html
I don't even trust myself running the machine as a gouge in the vise will 
attest. But there was support for it and it works reasonably well.
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/xhc-hb04.1.html

Again with the dual boot PC and either MACH3 or LinuxCNC.

John




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-05 Thread N

On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 08:08:17 -0400
Mark  wrote:

> On 9/4/20 6:13 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> >>
> >> Never said I changed from Mach 3 to LinuxCNC.  I've not owned a Windows
> >> machine for the better part of 30 years.
> > Oops.  Sorry.  For some reason I thought you had.  What I'm looking for are 
> > reasons why perhaps (again other than a dislike of Windows) why people 
> > changed.
> 
> 
> Controller didn't do what they wanted or needed it to do, 
> dissatisfaction with the OS, or any other number of reasons.  I'm not in 
> the market place trying to sell CNC controllers, so I settled on one 
> that worked for me, and happily enough, it had a Linux back end so I 
> wasn't forced to use Windows or a Mac, both of which I dislike.
> 
> 
> >
> >> Doesn't matter to me how many units that Aliexpress sold per year of that
> >> controller.  Wouldn't work on my machine, so I have no need to even
> >> consider it.
> > I understand that.  I think that Chris was basically trying to say the same 
> > thing.  If for example those types of far east controllers were selling in 
> > the thousands that might say a lot about that type of user interface.
> 
> 
> Or that they were cheap and were installed on a tablet that seems to be 
> ubiquitous these days.  Unfortunately, the interface, both input and 
> output systems in the tablets leave a lot to be desired in the context 
> of a machine shop, at least from what I've seen of tablets.  I just 
> don't want to depend on wireless communications to control a machine 
> that can hurt me or someone else or cause other kinds of damage.

Need to send message periodically to keep machine moving and no risk picking up 
noise or signal from somewhere else. Probably need some kind of encryption and 
randomness to solve this. On top of this are the ordinary risk what happen then 
something fails, used long enough and it will sooner or later, at least me 
quite often use things until they break.


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-05 Thread Mark


On 9/4/20 6:13 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:



Never said I changed from Mach 3 to LinuxCNC.  I've not owned a Windows
machine for the better part of 30 years.

Oops.  Sorry.  For some reason I thought you had.  What I'm looking for are 
reasons why perhaps (again other than a dislike of Windows) why people changed.



Controller didn't do what they wanted or needed it to do, 
dissatisfaction with the OS, or any other number of reasons.  I'm not in 
the market place trying to sell CNC controllers, so I settled on one 
that worked for me, and happily enough, it had a Linux back end so I 
wasn't forced to use Windows or a Mac, both of which I dislike.






Doesn't matter to me how many units that Aliexpress sold per year of that
controller.  Wouldn't work on my machine, so I have no need to even
consider it.

I understand that.  I think that Chris was basically trying to say the same 
thing.  If for example those types of far east controllers were selling in the 
thousands that might say a lot about that type of user interface.



Or that they were cheap and were installed on a tablet that seems to be 
ubiquitous these days.  Unfortunately, the interface, both input and 
output systems in the tablets leave a lot to be desired in the context 
of a machine shop, at least from what I've seen of tablets.  I just 
don't want to depend on wireless communications to control a machine 
that can hurt me or someone else or cause other kinds of damage.




OTOH, I've not seen that sort of a control system on any of the Grizzly Tools 
mills nor on any mills from Princess Auto or KMS tools here in Canada.  I do 
remember someone, maybe on the MACH group, stating they'd bought two for their 
mills and were extremely happy with them.  That they no longer had to muck with 
a PC and could continue making chips.

Even if I did build an ELS-MILL I would never expect anyone with a proper 
functioning system to change.  I know I wouldn't.For example I have a 
DRO-550 in addition to the two DRO350 kits.  I'm still using the first DRO-350 
I built.  The second was to be a spare.  The DRO-550 was to replace it but 
never did.



I couldn't remember the name yesterday, must have had a brain fart.  
Shumatech DRO's.  They were exactly what I needed at that time and they 
were priced right, and since I had an electronics background, building 
from a kit was not a problem for me.  They worked first time and have 
been ever since.  The DRO 350 started life on my mill, then got moved to 
my lathe when I built the DRO 550 and installed it on the mill.  
Honestly, the 550 is overkill for my uses on the mill, but he'd stopped 
making the 350 and I figured I'd keep up with the technology.





So I'm likely the last person to change easily.  That's why my PC on the mill 
is still dual boot.  Just in case I wanted to keep it the same as the CNC 
router which is still running MACH3 on WIN-XP and a Shuttle Xpress as the MPG.  
BTW, I really like that little unit.



I've never had a dual boot machine.  Never saw the need for it. Guess 
I'm old fashioned in a way.  I dedicate a machine to do one thing only.  
My laptop, running Linux Mint is my daily driver for emails, web 
browsing and futzing around.  My two other machines are dedicated to the 
shop, one as the machine controller and the other is my design machine.  
Each machine does what it does best and nothing else.





I think we're all basically in agreement that the design needs to be done 
first.  And before the design, a list of requirements.



It was never a debate about that.  My first reply was written tongue in 
cheek and it was assumed I didn't know what was involved in large, 
complex computing projects.  I've got lines of code running on 
satellites in space.  I do understand that it takes to go from ground 
zero to being in orbit, literally.  My comments were aimed towards all 
the times some folks here complaining that this or that doesn't exist, 
or why don't we push LinuxCNC into something that isn't LinuxCNC.  The 
code is there.  It's open source.  If folks don't like the direction 
it's heading, grab the code, make your mods, and realize your dreams.  
Nothing says you have to take LinuxCNC as it is and use it, though the 
vast majority of folks do.  If you want something different out of it, 
it's up to you to make the changes and get what you want.  The 
developers will do what they can within the context and the framework of 
what LinuxCNC is to take into your account wished for and needed 
changes, they've worked pretty damn hard over the years and delivered an 
astounding pile of software.


Tormach wanted something different, so they took the source and did with 
it what they wanted.  Yep, they paid for it.  Yep, they're reaping the 
rewards for doing what they did.  Good on them.  I think they did a good 
thing.  But they did it outside of the LinuxCNC development path.  They 
didn't come here complaining that LinuxCNC didn't fit their model of 
what they

Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Saturday 05 September 2020 01:10:20 Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

> On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 15:39 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Friday 04 September 2020 13:20:26 Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 10:02 -0700, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt 
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson
> > > > >  > > > >
> > > > > wrote
> > > > >
> > > > > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a
> > > > > > product that
> > > > >
> > > > > is
> > > > >
> > > > > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to
> > > > > > look at HAL
> > > > >
> > > > > files
> > > > >
> > > > > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning
> > > > > > is required it will always remain a niche product.
> > > > >
> > > > > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this
> > > > > project?
> > > >
> > > > I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to
> > > > make a point that there does exist a pattern in the way complex
> > > > niche products become mainstream.   Usually, another layer is
> > > > built around it.PCs were kind of rare until Windows covered
> > > > over the DOS command line.
> > >
> > > This is questionable. I used a PC with UNIX in 1984 and all our
> > > clients had UNIX. No graphics interface, only command line,
> > > databases and ad-hoc graphic programs. This was before Windows, we
> > > had UNIX and DOS in dual-boot on some PCs, UNIX on the servers.
> > > However the Apple Mac already had a graphics interface :-)
> >
> > Our first experince with unix, was on an AT 3B2 CBS bought all the
> > affiliates as a message service.  It was not a good experience
> > because the 3b2 was built like most Apples, the first layer of dust
> > and cheap sleeve bearing fans killed a fan and usually started a
> > fire. I had a halon extinguisher sitting next to it that got used a
> > couple times. Then CBS bought us all new systems running on a pc,
> > running NT-3.5.1, which had a built in timer in its housekeeping
> > that deleted the main .dll about every 2 years. I called Redmond and
> > got called a pie rat because I wanted a copy of that .dll.  I washed
> > my hands of anything that looked like windows, somebody else could
> > have that headache and when I decided my amiga was on its last legs,
> > and built a pc from parts in '98, it got red hat 5.0 installed. My
> > property has a bounty on windows, and no windows I've ever been
> > forced to buy has lasted more than a week past the warranty. I have
> > one win-10 box, a $330 hp thing used as a display for drawing smith
> > charts of an AM broadcast tower, couldn't make the linux drivers
> > work. IMNSHO Win-10 is a damned poor substutute for Linux.  But you
> > ALL know that. :)
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> My first experience with unix was on my IBM PC1, with one 5 1/4 floppy
> and a 32MB IBM hard disk. the OS was Interactive Systems Unix and DOS
> 3.3 in dual-boot. But this was after playing/programming four years
> with my Commodore 64.
> I still have the C64 in a drawer with all the devices and floppies :-)
> Also I have conserved the DOS Turbo Pascal 3.0 compiler and also Turbo
> Prolog, Fortran 77 4.1 and Autocad 2.9 :-)
>
I was the same with os9 for the trash 80 color computer, but after a 
nearly 35 year uptime, my beloved coco died, dried out caps and boots no 
more a/o about 90 days back. I'm torn between moving on, and taking the 
time to just shotgun every electrolytic in it.
>
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Valerio Bellizzomi

On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 21:43 +0100, andy pugh wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:17, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > I'm not going to turn this into a rant about Linux command lines but when 
> > you think about it much of working with LinuxCNC is essentially still 
> > 'command line' oriented.
> 
> Actually, it isn't. But it looks that way from email lists, forums and
> IRC because it is _much_ easier to tell someone the text-based way to
> do something on a text-based medium than it is to describe the GUI
> approach.
> 
> Advanced HAL involves text editing, despite a few attempts at a GUI.
> But bear in mind that the HAL is typically set up once and used
> unchanged for years. A fancy GUI might not be a worthwhile time
> investment, and no matter how good is likely to miss some features
> that can be hand-coded.
> 
> LinuxCNC configuration is graphical, with pncconf and stepconf. There
> are (several) conversational interfaces for simple operations. Some
> more finished and workable than others.
> What is needed there is a bit more integration between the GUIs and
> the CAM. (I am thinking particularly of NativeCAM here, which does
> clever stuff with block-delete to show the stock in the preview, but
> it would be nicer if that was something that the GUI knew how to do.
> 


Did you try GenericCAM ?

http://genericcam.sourceforge.net/

It compiles good on Ubuntu.




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Valerio Bellizzomi

On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 15:39 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 04 September 2020 13:20:26 Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 10:02 -0700, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  
> wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson
> > > >  > > >
> > > > wrote
> > > >
> > > > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a
> > > > > product that
> > > >
> > > > is
> > > >
> > > > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look
> > > > > at HAL
> > > >
> > > > files
> > > >
> > > > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is
> > > > > required it will always remain a niche product.
> > > >
> > > > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this
> > > > project?
> > >
> > > I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a
> > > point that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche
> > > products become mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around
> > > it.PCs were kind of rare until Windows covered over the DOS
> > > command line.
> >
> > This is questionable. I used a PC with UNIX in 1984 and all our
> > clients had UNIX. No graphics interface, only command line, databases
> > and ad-hoc graphic programs. This was before Windows, we had UNIX and
> > DOS in dual-boot on some PCs, UNIX on the servers. However the Apple
> > Mac already had a graphics interface :-)
> >
> Our first experince with unix, was on an AT 3B2 CBS bought all the 
> affiliates as a message service.  It was not a good experience because 
> the 3b2 was built like most Apples, the first layer of dust and cheap 
> sleeve bearing fans killed a fan and usually started a fire. I had a 
> halon extinguisher sitting next to it that got used a couple times.  
> Then CBS bought us all new systems running on a pc, running NT-3.5.1, 
> which had a built in timer in its housekeeping that deleted the 
> main .dll about every 2 years. I called Redmond and got called a pie rat 
> because I wanted a copy of that .dll.  I washed my hands of anything 
> that looked like windows, somebody else could have that headache and 
> when I decided my amiga was on its last legs, and built a pc from parts 
> in '98, it got red hat 5.0 installed. My property has a bounty on 
> windows, and no windows I've ever been forced to buy has lasted more 
> than a week past the warranty. I have one win-10 box, a $330 hp thing 
> used as a display for drawing smith charts of an AM broadcast tower, 
> couldn't make the linux drivers work. IMNSHO Win-10 is a damned poor 
> substutute for Linux.  But you ALL know that. :)
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


My first experience with unix was on my IBM PC1, with one 5 1/4 floppy
and a 32MB IBM hard disk. the OS was Interactive Systems Unix and DOS
3.3 in dual-boot. But this was after playing/programming four years with
my Commodore 64.
I still have the C64 in a drawer with all the devices and floppies :-)
Also I have conserved the DOS Turbo Pascal 3.0 compiler and also Turbo
Prolog, Fortran 77 4.1 and Autocad 2.9 :-)





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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread R C

I agree there,  CNC Linux is pretty cool, it can do a lot more than I 
can ever learn about it..  and it's free...



you can't complain about free...   especially if a ton of people like it..



On 9/4/20 6:16 PM, Phill Carter wrote:



On 5 Sep 2020, at 4:53 am, Mark Wendt  wrote:

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com>>
wrote:


On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:


On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <

albertson.ch...@gmail.com

wrote

...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that

is

slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL

files

or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required

it

will always remain a niche product.


Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?


I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.


And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
and best CNC machine controller.

Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.

Mark

My thoughts exactly Mark, this constant whining wears thin…

Cheers, Phill.
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Phill Carter



> On 5 Sep 2020, at 4:53 am, Mark Wendt  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson  >
> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <
>> albertson.ch...@gmail.com
 
>>> wrote
 ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that
>>> is
 slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
>>> files
 or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required
>> it
 will always remain a niche product.
 
>>> 
>>> Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
>>> 
>> 
>> I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
>> that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
>> mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
>> of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.
>> 
> 
> And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
> set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
> do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
> happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
> software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
> write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
> golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
> and best CNC machine controller.
> 
> Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
> that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
> the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.
> 
> Mark

My thoughts exactly Mark, this constant whining wears thin…

Cheers, Phill.
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Jon Elson

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson 
 wrote:

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:


On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <

albertson.ch...@gmail.com

wrote

...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that

is

slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL

files

or know it runs on Linux.
Well, Sherline did this in about 2002 or so.  They 
supposedly sold 1000 CNC'ed Sherlines with a desktop PC with 
EMC installed on it, as a package deal.


(I'm really vague on the date when they did this.  I'm 
pretty sure it was PRE-EMC2.)


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

> From: Mark Wendt [mailto:wendt.m...@gmail.com]
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 4:47 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:
> > Mark,
> > Why did you change from MACH3 to LinuxCNC?  What was it about MACH3 you
> > didn't like?  Forget for a moment that it's Windows or Linux as a reason.
> > What was it that made LinuxCNC Axis (or what do you use?)  so much nicer.
> > And for how many years did you run MACH3 before you changed?  Do you miss
> > the wizards?

> Never said I changed from Mach 3 to LinuxCNC.  I've not owned a Windows
> machine for the better part of 30 years.  

Oops.  Sorry.  For some reason I thought you had.  What I'm looking for are 
reasons why perhaps (again other than a dislike of Windows) why people changed. 

> Doesn't matter to me how many units that Aliexpress sold per year of that
> controller.  Wouldn't work on my machine, so I have no need to even
> consider it. 

I understand that.  I think that Chris was basically trying to say the same 
thing.  If for example those types of far east controllers were selling in the 
thousands that might say a lot about that type of user interface. 

OTOH, I've not seen that sort of a control system on any of the Grizzly Tools 
mills nor on any mills from Princess Auto or KMS tools here in Canada.  I do 
remember someone, maybe on the MACH group, stating they'd bought two for their 
mills and were extremely happy with them.  That they no longer had to muck with 
a PC and could continue making chips.

Even if I did build an ELS-MILL I would never expect anyone with a proper 
functioning system to change.  I know I wouldn't.For example I have a 
DRO-550 in addition to the two DRO350 kits.  I'm still using the first DRO-350 
I built.  The second was to be a spare.  The DRO-550 was to replace it but 
never did.  

So I'm likely the last person to change easily.  That's why my PC on the mill 
is still dual boot.  Just in case I wanted to keep it the same as the CNC 
router which is still running MACH3 on WIN-XP and a Shuttle Xpress as the MPG.  
BTW, I really like that little unit.  

I think we're all basically in agreement that the design needs to be done 
first.  And before the design, a list of requirements.   

John Dammeyer

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

> Axis (and I think all the other GUIs) support this kind of wizard.
> There are examples in the sample configs. The problem is that they
> have never been in-your-face obvious with a new install, and many are
> basically just a demo abandoned by the original developer.
> 
> The hooks all exist.
> 
> --
> atp

Maybe that's partly the problem with Axis and LinuxCNC.   Perhaps a step back 
before making two steps forward.  

Put a shock collar like the ones to keep dogs in line around the neck of the 
AXIS programmer.  An intelligent collar.  Every time the thought that command 
line operation or editor operation could be used he gets a mild shock.  If 
starts implementing it he gets a bigger shock.

Just kidding...

John




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 22:27, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> I've attached a screen shot of a small Lazarus program I wrote last year.  It 
> creates the G-Code.  The screenshot was captured on a WIN-7 ASUS laptop.  But 
> the code also compiles and runs on LinuxCNC.  I've actually tried it.
> Probably with some use there would be other options.  Like the path to save 
> the file to.  A hook so it's immediately loaded into AXIS.  In fact ideally 
> it could be launched from Axis but also separately.

Axis (and I think all the other GUIs) support this kind of wizard.
There are examples in the sample configs. The problem is that they
have never been in-your-face obvious with a new install, and many are
basically just a demo abandoned by the original developer.

The hooks all exist.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Peter C. Wallace


On Fri, 4 Sep 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:

From what I understand, the MESA hardware essentially already offloads most of 
the important real time stuff into the FPGAs.  Remember, you can, in addition 
to quadrature counters, PSI ports etc, fabricate an entire micro-processor 
inside an FPGA.


One way to look at what the Mesa hardware does is that it runs LinuxCNCs "Base 
Thread" in hardware, so only the (normally 1 KHz) "Servo Thread" is needed.


BTW Mesa Ethernet cards always have at least 1 CPU embedded in the FPGA fabric 
(for Ethernet communications), and may have additional CPUs for SSerial device 
communications or a 32 BIT DSP embedded for resolver interfaces.



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Ed


On 9/4/20 3:14 PM, Mark Wendt wrote:

Is this mostly a question of UI's instead of the underlying OS and app? 
If you did not tell Joe Average that Linuxcnc runs on Linux and just had 
him run the app I think he would be happy once he got on top of the 
learning curve.



PathPilot seems to very well liked by Tormach users, others like Axis, 
GMOsomething, going back  Mini and even Keystick were used by many. It 
seems most of the questions people that are casual or infrequent users 
have is about the UI and setup. Setup is easy with wizards like Pncconf 
and Stepconf and is no harder than Mach3/4.



UI's do have a learning curve and people have different uses and needs 
which get focused through the UI. Some people live and die by a 
tablet/smartphone and don't want anything else and that is fine. For me, 
on my machines, I want a keyboard because for my use it is much faster.


Do we need a major update of Linuxcnc capabilities or do we need the 
best UI?



Ed.




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

Thanks Andy.

> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: September-04-20 1:35 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI
> 
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:17, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > From what I understand, the MESA hardware essentially already offloads most 
> > of the important real time stuff into the FPGAs.
> 
> Not really. It moves some of the fast time-critical stuff to the FPGA
> but it is still _very_much_ reliant on getting realtime updates from
> the controller every 1mS +/- a small jitter.
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 4:47 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Wendt [mailto:wendt.m...@gmail.com]
> >  Completely
> > redesigning a working system to satisfy a small number of people who
> might
> > or would like something different I'm sure is not something the
> developers
> > of this great software would consider.
> >
> > So,like I said before, fork off to a new branch, do your design work,
> write
> > your code and rule the CNC world.  Don't expect somebody else to do your
> > work for the things you want.  You want it, you make it happen.
> >
> > Mark
>
> Mark,
> Why did you change from MACH3 to LinuxCNC?  What was it about MACH3 you
> didn't like?  Forget for a moment that it's Windows or Linux as a reason.
> What was it that made LinuxCNC Axis (or what do you use?)  so much nicer.
> And for how many years did you run MACH3 before you changed?  Do you miss
> the wizards?
>
> Also I wonder how many of these are sold per year?
>
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1055531039.html
>
> The pictures on the web site look more like CAD representations but there
> are other aliexpress and banggood sites that sell similar products.
>
> Does anyone on this list have one like this?
>
> Just curious.
> John Dammeyer
>

Never said I changed from Mach 3 to LinuxCNC.  I've not owned a Windows
machine for the better part of 30 years.  My days as a system and network
admin were done on VMS, Unix, DecUnix, HP-UX, SGI, Solaris and Linux. My
first machine was built and used LinuxCNC.  Been using LinuxCNC for over 20
years.  Wouldn't switch to anything else, especially since any form of
Windows is outlawed in either my home or shop.

Doesn't matter to me how many units that Aliexpress sold per year of that
controller.  Wouldn't work on my machine, so I have no need to even
consider it.  Mach 3 would have been a poor choice for my machine too.
LinuxCNC (EMC/EMC2 at the time when I designed and built my machine)
offered me the flexibility to be able to make my machine work the way I
wanted it to.  Nothing else came close.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI




> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Wendt [mailto:wendt.m...@gmail.com]
>  Completely
> redesigning a working system to satisfy a small number of people who might
> or would like something different I'm sure is not something the developers
> of this great software would consider.
> 
> So,like I said before, fork off to a new branch, do your design work, write
> your code and rule the CNC world.  Don't expect somebody else to do your
> work for the things you want.  You want it, you make it happen.
> 
> Mark

Mark,
Why did you change from MACH3 to LinuxCNC?  What was it about MACH3 you didn't 
like?  Forget for a moment that it's Windows or Linux as a reason.  What was it 
that made LinuxCNC Axis (or what do you use?)  so much nicer.  And for how many 
years did you run MACH3 before you changed?  Do you miss the wizards?

Also I wonder how many of these are sold per year?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1055531039.html

The pictures on the web site look more like CAD representations but there are 
other aliexpress and banggood sites that sell similar products.

Does anyone on this list have one like this?

Just curious.
John Dammeyer




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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:17, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> I'm not going to turn this into a rant about Linux command lines but when you 
> think about it much of working with LinuxCNC is essentially still 'command 
> line' oriented.

Actually, it isn't. But it looks that way from email lists, forums and
IRC because it is _much_ easier to tell someone the text-based way to
do something on a text-based medium than it is to describe the GUI
approach.

Advanced HAL involves text editing, despite a few attempts at a GUI.
But bear in mind that the HAL is typically set up once and used
unchanged for years. A fancy GUI might not be a worthwhile time
investment, and no matter how good is likely to miss some features
that can be hand-coded.

LinuxCNC configuration is graphical, with pncconf and stepconf. There
are (several) conversational interfaces for simple operations. Some
more finished and workable than others.
What is needed there is a bit more integration between the GUIs and
the CAM. (I am thinking particularly of NativeCAM here, which does
clever stuff with block-delete to show the stock in the preview, but
it would be nicer if that was something that the GUI knew how to do.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:17, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> From what I understand, the MESA hardware essentially already offloads most 
> of the important real time stuff into the FPGAs.

Not really. It moves some of the fast time-critical stuff to the FPGA
but it is still _very_much_ reliant on getting realtime updates from
the controller every 1mS +/- a small jitter.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 4:05 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> > And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what
> this
> > set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
> > do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
> > happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
> > software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
> > write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
> > golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
> > and best CNC machine controller.
> >
> > Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
> > that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
> > the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> Hey Mark,
> Indirectly I've already done some of that over 10 years ago when many of
> the naysayers on the CNC groups insisted that an Electronic Lead screw
> project was a useless waste of time.
>
> And now, my ELS, with a full keypad and function buttons has been derided
> as old fashioned because it has too many buttons.  I think mostly because
> adding that many extra to an Arduino suddenly runs into code space
> limitations but that's a different story.
>
> If I want ball turning and other automation features on my Lathe I unplug
> the parallel port cable from the back of my ELS and plug it into a PC
> parallel port.  In this case I can only run MACH3 because my ELS runs 1PPR
> spindle sensing while Linux needs multiple pulses.
>
> The Arduino based Electronic Gearing systems misnamed as an ELS use the
> high res 1800 PPR spindle encoder to directly run the stepper motor
> creating ratios by dividing/multiplying those counts.  And many of them
> still require a close watch to release the half nut.  Their advantage is
> they can turn the spindle by hand and the lead screw tracks just like the
> gears.  The disadvantage is they won't work on a Sherline or other small
> lathe because they have a 1200RPM or so top spindle speed.
>
> In either case though, and this is the important point, none of those
> users want CNC or they'd just go that way.   One friend of mine started
> converting his lathe to use my ELS but never bought one.  He continued
> straight on to MACH3.  Loves it.
>
> On this group, I suspect over 90% of the members are already running
> LinuxCNC.  Unless you are just into playing with electronics and software
> why would you even change to something different?
>
> So like the creation of the E-Leadscrew yahoo group after lack of interest
> on CAD-CAM-DRO and DIYCNC a separated Control Box and multi-user platform
> CNC system for mills probably won't happen on this group.
>
> For example, most of the Linux people I know rave about Python as the best
> thing to use.  Personally I can't stand it.  Best kept secret is actually
> Delphi now sold by Embarcadero.  But it's become very expensive and the
> latest version 10.4 of RAD Studio forced users to upgrade to WIN-10.
>
> But, with the Firemonkey library one program can be compiled with the
> appropriate end target look and feel for PCs, Macs, Tablets and phones.
> And now also Linux.  IMHO, that is the correct vehicle to use for
> developing a new graphics oriented CNC user interface that talks to a
> dedicated open source hardware module that does the Real Time work.
>
> An alternative but not yet targeted at tablets or phones is Lazarus with
> Free Pascal.  I've been working on a CANopen project for the last few
> months that compiles and runs on PCs, Pi3, BBB and LinuxCNC.  To access the
> CAN bus the PC uses the USB port and the Lawicel CANUSB (www.canusb.com).
> In fact the Beagle and the Pi can also use this dongle.
>
> I've also got a cape for the Beagle with a CAN driver and I'm working on
> using the CAN library to access that from this same program.  Also a HAT
> for the Pi that has a MCP2515 SPI based CAN device.
>
> The whole point of the project is a CANopen Lite project that will allow
> someone to create CANopen Lite conformance testing) and interface to COTS
> CANopen modules like step/servo drives etc. I don't believe CANopen is
> suitable for real time CNC control for mills or lathes.  For all the slow
> hardware yes.  Some sort of high speed controller with an RTOS probably is
> still needed for the main system.
>
> Because I'm using Lazarus and Free Pascal I'm also designing this CANopen
> Lite program in such a way to hopefully easily port back to Delphi.  And
> with that to tablets etc.  In either case, this is just the start.And
> it will all be open source.
>
> To sum up the market for this is not existing LinuxCNC or MACH4 users.  It
> might well be existing MACH3 users or people who want something more than a
> manual mill but less than full CNC.  Path Pilot was mentioned with no need
> to know about the HAL.  But that's a dedicated machine.  I don't think
> there's Python

Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 4:01 PM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> "Start writing code" is the exact WRONG way to start the software project.
> In fact, it is a classically wrong way that is common with beginners.
>  Every software management book written in the last few decades starts out
> showing all the common mistakes and this is #1 on the list.
>
> The best analogy is to building a house.   The beginners say "why not just
> buy some lumber and start work, everything knows what house looks like.
> He gets halfway done and someone tells him the foundation is wrong.  So he
> fixes that.   Then even worse after the house is done they tell him the
> floor plan is wrong and it needs to be a single floor because the elderly
> owners can't walk upstairs.So much software is done this way that it is
> the #1 reason why projects fail.
>
> The correct way is to spend considerable time upfront looking at what the
> customer really needs, not what he says he needs.   Then you might do some
> prototypes to mock-ups and show them around to get feedback and more
> ideas.You can do this a few times.   Finally, you can get into
> high-level design, figure out what the major parts will be and how the
> parts interact.
>
> Next, I'd do prototype work and verify some of the harder parts can even be
> done.
>
> Finally, you get to detailed design stage, do that, show it around and get
> more input.
>
> Now you are ready to start writing code.
>
> But why bother when most LinuxCNC users are happy with what they have?
> Most DOS users were happy with the DOS command line.  But there were few
> DOS users.  It is kind os self fulfilling, those not happy with the way
> LinuxCNC works never become LinuxCNC users.
>
>
> Look what Tormach did.  There target customer base was NOT LinuxCNC users.
> They went after a larger group of potential costomers
>
> So this email list is actually a very poor place to get ideas, A better
> place is to find where the hordes of machinests who looked at LinuxCNC and
> said "not for me" and moved on.   What were THOSE guys looking for?
>

My background is computer science, and I worked as a system and network
admin for the Naval Research Lab in DC for almost 30 years.  I know what's
involved in very large projects for satellite systems as well as a bunch of
other classified military systems.  I know what is involved in complex
software and building a system that meets the requirement for very complex
requirements.  Don't need a lecture from you on that.

Bringing up DOS users is a straw man argument number one.  Number two, the
number of users of Unix and Linux systems vastly outnumber the folks that
used DOS, and Unix and Linux software are still widely used even today.
Can't say the same about DOS users.

You do realize that Tormach Path Pilot is really nothing more than a
different front end to LinuxCNC, right?

What were those folks looking for that decided they didn't want LinuxCNC?
Dunno, why don't you ask them, then design them a system they would like?
All I see hear is the same people throwing out the same ideas for a system
that is _not_ LinuxCNC.  Like I said before, instead of complaining the
system you seem to want doesn't exist, take the bull by the horns and
design and code that system.  Then you'll have the bully pulpit in your own
kingdom of CNC users who would like and want your software.  Completely
redesigning a working system to satisfy a small number of people who might
or would like something different I'm sure is not something the developers
of this great software would consider.

So,like I said before, fork off to a new branch, do your design work, write
your code and rule the CNC world.  Don't expect somebody else to do your
work for the things you want.  You want it, you make it happen.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

Hear! Hear!  Applause   Standing ovation!
John Dammeyer

> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: September-04-20 12:58 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI
> 
> "Start writing code" is the exact WRONG way to start the software project.
> In fact, it is a classically wrong way that is common with beginners.
>  Every software management book written in the last few decades starts out
> showing all the common mistakes and this is #1 on the list.
> 
> The best analogy is to building a house.   The beginners say "why not just
> buy some lumber and start work, everything knows what house looks like.
> He gets halfway done and someone tells him the foundation is wrong.  So he
> fixes that.   Then even worse after the house is done they tell him the
> floor plan is wrong and it needs to be a single floor because the elderly
> owners can't walk upstairs.So much software is done this way that it is
> the #1 reason why projects fail.
> 
> The correct way is to spend considerable time upfront looking at what the
> customer really needs, not what he says he needs.   Then you might do some
> prototypes to mock-ups and show them around to get feedback and more
> ideas.You can do this a few times.   Finally, you can get into
> high-level design, figure out what the major parts will be and how the
> parts interact.
> 
> Next, I'd do prototype work and verify some of the harder parts can even be
> done.
> 
> Finally, you get to detailed design stage, do that, show it around and get
> more input.
> 
> Now you are ready to start writing code.
> 
> But why bother when most LinuxCNC users are happy with what they have?
> Most DOS users were happy with the DOS command line.  But there were few
> DOS users.  It is kind os self fulfilling, those not happy with the way
> LinuxCNC works never become LinuxCNC users.
> 
> 
> Look what Tormach did.  There target customer base was NOT LinuxCNC users.
> They went after a larger group of potential costomers
> 
> So this email list is actually a very poor place to get ideas, A better
> place is to find where the hordes of machinests who looked at LinuxCNC and
> said "not for me" and moved on.   What were THOSE guys looking for?
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:57 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <
> > > albertson.ch...@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > wrote
> > > > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product
> > that
> > > > is
> > > > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
> > > > files
> > > > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is
> > required
> > > it
> > > > > will always remain a niche product.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
> > > that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
> > > mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
> > > of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
> > set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
> > do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
> > happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
> > software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
> > write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
> > golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
> > and best CNC machine controller.
> >
> > Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
> > that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
> > the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

> And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
> set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
> do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
> happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
> software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
> write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
> golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
> and best CNC machine controller.
> 
> Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
> that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
> the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.
> 
> Mark
> 
Hey Mark,
Indirectly I've already done some of that over 10 years ago when many of the 
naysayers on the CNC groups insisted that an Electronic Lead screw project was 
a useless waste of time.  

And now, my ELS, with a full keypad and function buttons has been derided as 
old fashioned because it has too many buttons.  I think mostly because adding 
that many extra to an Arduino suddenly runs into code space limitations but 
that's a different story.  

If I want ball turning and other automation features on my Lathe I unplug the 
parallel port cable from the back of my ELS and plug it into a PC parallel 
port.  In this case I can only run MACH3 because my ELS runs 1PPR spindle 
sensing while Linux needs multiple pulses.

The Arduino based Electronic Gearing systems misnamed as an ELS use the high 
res 1800 PPR spindle encoder to directly run the stepper motor creating ratios 
by dividing/multiplying those counts.  And many of them still require a close 
watch to release the half nut.  Their advantage is they can turn the spindle by 
hand and the lead screw tracks just like the gears.  The disadvantage is they 
won't work on a Sherline or other small lathe because they have a 1200RPM or so 
top spindle speed.

In either case though, and this is the important point, none of those users 
want CNC or they'd just go that way.   One friend of mine started converting 
his lathe to use my ELS but never bought one.  He continued straight on to 
MACH3.  Loves it.

On this group, I suspect over 90% of the members are already running LinuxCNC.  
Unless you are just into playing with electronics and software why would you 
even change to something different?

So like the creation of the E-Leadscrew yahoo group after lack of interest on 
CAD-CAM-DRO and DIYCNC a separated Control Box and multi-user platform CNC 
system for mills probably won't happen on this group.

For example, most of the Linux people I know rave about Python as the best 
thing to use.  Personally I can't stand it.  Best kept secret is actually 
Delphi now sold by Embarcadero.  But it's become very expensive and the latest 
version 10.4 of RAD Studio forced users to upgrade to WIN-10.  

But, with the Firemonkey library one program can be compiled with the 
appropriate end target look and feel for PCs, Macs, Tablets and phones.  And 
now also Linux.  IMHO, that is the correct vehicle to use for developing a new 
graphics oriented CNC user interface that talks to a dedicated open source 
hardware module that does the Real Time work.

An alternative but not yet targeted at tablets or phones is Lazarus with Free 
Pascal.  I've been working on a CANopen project for the last few months that 
compiles and runs on PCs, Pi3, BBB and LinuxCNC.  To access the CAN bus the PC 
uses the USB port and the Lawicel CANUSB (www.canusb.com).  In fact the Beagle 
and the Pi can also use this dongle.

I've also got a cape for the Beagle with a CAN driver and I'm working on using 
the CAN library to access that from this same program.  Also a HAT for the Pi 
that has a MCP2515 SPI based CAN device.

The whole point of the project is a CANopen Lite project that will allow 
someone to create CANopen Lite conformance testing) and interface to COTS 
CANopen modules like step/servo drives etc. I don't believe CANopen is suitable 
for real time CNC control for mills or lathes.  For all the slow hardware yes.  
Some sort of high speed controller with an RTOS probably is still needed for 
the main system. 

Because I'm using Lazarus and Free Pascal I'm also designing this CANopen Lite 
program in such a way to hopefully easily port back to Delphi.  And with that 
to tablets etc.  In either case, this is just the start.And it will all be 
open source.

To sum up the market for this is not existing LinuxCNC or MACH4 users.  It 
might well be existing MACH3 users or people who want something more than a 
manual mill but less than full CNC.  Path Pilot was mentioned with no need to 
know about the HAL.  But that's a dedicated machine.  I don't think there's 
Python code or access available for my Blue Ray disk player.  Although I'd love 
to be able to change the code to skip over all those stupid promos and 
copyright warnings.

Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Chris Albertson

"Start writing code" is the exact WRONG way to start the software project.
In fact, it is a classically wrong way that is common with beginners.
 Every software management book written in the last few decades starts out
showing all the common mistakes and this is #1 on the list.

The best analogy is to building a house.   The beginners say "why not just
buy some lumber and start work, everything knows what house looks like.
He gets halfway done and someone tells him the foundation is wrong.  So he
fixes that.   Then even worse after the house is done they tell him the
floor plan is wrong and it needs to be a single floor because the elderly
owners can't walk upstairs.So much software is done this way that it is
the #1 reason why projects fail.

The correct way is to spend considerable time upfront looking at what the
customer really needs, not what he says he needs.   Then you might do some
prototypes to mock-ups and show them around to get feedback and more
ideas.You can do this a few times.   Finally, you can get into
high-level design, figure out what the major parts will be and how the
parts interact.

Next, I'd do prototype work and verify some of the harder parts can even be
done.

Finally, you get to detailed design stage, do that, show it around and get
more input.

Now you are ready to start writing code.

But why bother when most LinuxCNC users are happy with what they have?
Most DOS users were happy with the DOS command line.  But there were few
DOS users.  It is kind os self fulfilling, those not happy with the way
LinuxCNC works never become LinuxCNC users.

Look what Tormach did.  There target customer base was NOT LinuxCNC users.
They went after a larger group of potential costomers

So this email list is actually a very poor place to get ideas, A better
place is to find where the hordes of machinests who looked at LinuxCNC and
said "not for me" and moved on.   What were THOSE guys looking for?

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:57 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <
> > albertson.ch...@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > wrote
> > > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product
> that
> > > is
> > > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
> > > files
> > > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is
> required
> > it
> > > > will always remain a niche product.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
> > >
> >
> > I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
> > that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
> > mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
> > of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.
> >
>

>
> And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
> set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
> do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
> happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
> software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
> write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
> golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
> and best CNC machine controller.
>
> Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
> that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
> the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.
>
> Mark
>
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>

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Gene Heskett

On Friday 04 September 2020 13:20:26 Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

> On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 10:02 -0700, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  
wrote:
> > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson
> > >  > >
> > > wrote
> > >
> > > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a
> > > > product that
> > >
> > > is
> > >
> > > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look
> > > > at HAL
> > >
> > > files
> > >
> > > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is
> > > > required it will always remain a niche product.
> > >
> > > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this
> > > project?
> >
> > I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a
> > point that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche
> > products become mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around
> > it.PCs were kind of rare until Windows covered over the DOS
> > command line.
>
> This is questionable. I used a PC with UNIX in 1984 and all our
> clients had UNIX. No graphics interface, only command line, databases
> and ad-hoc graphic programs. This was before Windows, we had UNIX and
> DOS in dual-boot on some PCs, UNIX on the servers. However the Apple
> Mac already had a graphics interface :-)
>
Our first experince with unix, was on an AT 3B2 CBS bought all the 
affiliates as a message service.  It was not a good experience because 
the 3b2 was built like most Apples, the first layer of dust and cheap 
sleeve bearing fans killed a fan and usually started a fire. I had a 
halon extinguisher sitting next to it that got used a couple times.  
Then CBS bought us all new systems running on a pc, running NT-3.5.1, 
which had a built in timer in its housekeeping that deleted the 
main .dll about every 2 years. I called Redmond and got called a pie rat 
because I wanted a copy of that .dll.  I washed my hands of anything 
that looked like windows, somebody else could have that headache and 
when I decided my amiga was on its last legs, and built a pc from parts 
in '98, it got red hat 5.0 installed. My property has a bounty on 
windows, and no windows I've ever been forced to buy has lasted more 
than a week past the warranty. I have one win-10 box, a $330 hp thing 
used as a display for drawing smith charts of an AM broadcast tower, 
couldn't make the linux drivers work. IMNSHO Win-10 is a damned poor 
substutute for Linux.  But you ALL know that. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

Man.  Chris has hit a few buttons here.
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> The real problem with the wider adoption of LinuxCNCis that it is there kit
> of parts and does not work out of the box.   After that it gets worse, the
> parts are unfamiliar to most people.

The problem isn't only the kit of parts on the electronic side of things.   
There is no standard milling machine and each one seems to require a different 
solution.  Stay with leadscrews.  Add anti-backlash nut?  Change to ball 
screws?  So the mechanics are just one side of adding CNC and the costs are not 
low.  Stepper motors?  Servo Motors?  Closed loop?  Open Loop?  A 2A size 17 
stepper driver for 24V on a 3D printer is vastly different from a 70V 8A size 
34 stepper driver in price and power supply requirements.

> 
> What is needed before it will see wide use is a re-architecture.   Move the
> real-time components to open-source hardware and then remove the need for
> real-time Linux and make the non-real-time parts cross platform
> Linux/Windows/Mac.3D printers are not unlike milling machines. Note how
> they work, you can use any computer you own and all the real-time stuff is
> on a circuit card that is not inside your computer.  These printers run
> g-code and move MUCH faster than mills

What was available when LinuxCNC was first developed and what is available now 
is so dramatically different that Chris makes a good argument for this.  Way 
back I wrote some software for a huge Gantry Based Laser Cutter for fabric.  
Run with Servos I wrote the demo software in 8085 assembler on a CP/M-80 
machine.   I was called in because the programmer was away for two weeks and 
they had an important demo coming up.  So we cut some circles and other 
polygons.

Now, although 8 bit Atmel micro-processors (Arduino) are doing much the same 
thing the number of 32 bit processors out there is nothing short of amazing.  
The Beagle with the dual PRU and fully open source but terrible graphical 
output.  The Pi with great graphics but requires 4 processors to do what the 
Beagle does with one and the dual PRUs.  And there are more.

From what I understand, the MESA hardware essentially already offloads most of 
the important real time stuff into the FPGAs.  Remember, you can, in addition 
to quadrature counters, PSI ports etc, fabricate an entire micro-processor 
inside an FPGA.
> 
> After you do this the system is "plug and play" and runs on a computer the
> user already has.
> 
> Years ago the few Linux users were wondering how Linux could be more widely
> used.  The answer was to hide the fact that it was Linux.  That is what
> Google did with Android.  Now Android (Linux) is the most used OS in the
> world having more than twice as many users as Microsoft Windows.
> 
Not really a fair comparison.  Most of the Android OS usage is in telephones 
and a lesser number in tablets or televisions so although there may be more 
Linux run systems (especially when you add in routers) the actual laptop/PC 
workstation world is still mostly Windows with Apple (now also with a Linux 
underbody IIRC) coming in second.

> So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that is
> slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL files
> or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required it
> will always remain a niche product.
>
I also don't think it's correct to compare a 3D printer with a Mill.  There's 
so much more to using a mill than there is to threading filament and 
downloading a file from a web site to create a cute little figurine.

And if you take a step back and look at the fundamentals, LinuxCNC is an 
Operating System.   And the better question to answer first is how does an OS 
fit into a CNC control system.  What's needed and what isn't?  Can the Free 
RTOS running on a 32 bit processor do exactly the same thing?

In that sense Chris is dead on.  A modern 32 bit processor with appropriate 
hardware might well cover 75% of all CNC applications.  But the ones with 
Resolvers or high res encoders etc. will still require that custom hardware 
provided by suppliers like Jon Elson or Peter Wallace.  

I'm not going to turn this into a rant about Linux command lines but when you 
think about it much of working with LinuxCNC is essentially still 'command 
line' oriented.  It's just typing lots of G-Code over and over.

Other than the 5 button array on the Arduino 3D printer controller how much 
G-Code do you need to enter to 3D print something?  None.  My Ardunio front 
panel doesn’t even let me do that nor does Octoprint (at least not very easily) 
and I'm running that on a Pi2.

Change over to MACH3 and there are a very large number of 'Wizards'.  Want to 
surface something to a given depth.  Fill in the blanks, it creates the G-Code, 
you load it and run it.  Yes, an expert LinuxCNC user can whip up a G-Code 
program just as fast.  

But that's not the point.

Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson <
> albertson.ch...@gmail.com
> > >
> > wrote
> > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that
> > is
> > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
> > files
> > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required
> it
> > > will always remain a niche product.
> > >
> >
> > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
> >
>
> I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
> that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
> mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
> of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.
>

And I wrote that because of all the pie in the sky whining about what this
set of programs needs to be, and no one stepping up to make the effort to
do something like that.  The vast majority of LinuxCNC users are quite
happy with what our developers write for us to use.  It's open source
software.  If you don't like the direction LinuxCNC is going, fork off,
write your own version so that it does what you perceive to be the next
golden goose, thump your chest and tell the world you now have the latest
and best CNC machine controller.

Otherwise, lets stop flogging the deceased equine.  Unless all you guys
that want this kind of stuff take the bull by the horns and start writing
the code for it, it ain't gonna happen.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Martin Dobbins

> Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
>

I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.

I can imagine Tormach's dilemma when they decided to switch their customers off 
a Windows interface onto Linuxcnc.
Small wonder they contracted to have Path Pilot written, so that their 
customers don't need to know that HAL is anything other than a disembodied 
voice from a movie 

Perhaps PP is a beginning not an end?

Martin






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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Valerio Bellizzomi

On Fri, 2020-09-04 at 10:02 -0700, Chris Albertson wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson  > >
> > wrote
> > > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that
> > is
> > > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
> > files
> > > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required it
> > > will always remain a niche product.
> > >
> >
> > Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
> >
> 
> I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
> that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
> mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
> of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.

This is questionable. I used a PC with UNIX in 1984 and all our clients
had UNIX. No graphics interface, only command line, databases and ad-hoc
graphic programs. This was before Windows, we had UNIX and DOS in
dual-boot on some PCs, UNIX on the servers. However the Apple Mac
already had a graphics interface :-)






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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Chris Albertson

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson  >
> wrote
> > ...So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that
> is
> > slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL
> files
> > or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required it
> > will always remain a niche product.
> >
>
> Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?
>

I wrote that to show why it will never happen.   But also to make a point
that there does exist a pattern in the way complex niche products become
mainstream.   Usually, another layer is built around it.PCs were kind
of rare until Windows covered over the DOS command line.

>
> Mark
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:41 PM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> The real problem with the wider adoption of LinuxCNCis that it is there kit
> of parts and does not work out of the box.   After that it gets worse, the
> parts are unfamiliar to most people.
>
> What is needed before it will see wide use is a re-architecture.   Move the
> real-time components to open-source hardware and then remove the need for
> real-time Linux and make the non-real-time parts cross platform
> Linux/Windows/Mac.3D printers are not unlike milling machines. Note how
> they work, you can use any computer you own and all the real-time stuff is
> on a circuit card that is not inside your computer.  These printers run
> g-code and move MUCH faster then mills
>
> After you do this the system is "plug and play" and runs on a computer the
> user already has.
>
> Years ago the few Linux users were wondering how Linux could be more widely
> used.  The answer was to hide the fact that it was Linux.  That is what
> Google did with Android.  Now Android (Linux) is the most used OS in the
> world having more than twice as many users as Microsoft Windows.
>
> So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that is
> slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL files
> or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required it
> will always remain a niche product.
>

Great stuff!  So, when are you going to get started on this project?

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Chris Albertson

The real problem with the wider adoption of LinuxCNCis that it is there kit
of parts and does not work out of the box.   After that it gets worse, the
parts are unfamiliar to most people.

What is needed before it will see wide use is a re-architecture.   Move the
real-time components to open-source hardware and then remove the need for
real-time Linux and make the non-real-time parts cross platform
Linux/Windows/Mac.3D printers are not unlike milling machines. Note how
they work, you can use any computer you own and all the real-time stuff is
on a circuit card that is not inside your computer.  These printers run
g-code and move MUCH faster then mills

After you do this the system is "plug and play" and runs on a computer the
user already has.

Years ago the few Linux users were wondering how Linux could be more widely
used.  The answer was to hide the fact that it was Linux.  That is what
Google did with Android.  Now Android (Linux) is the most used OS in the
world having more than twice as many users as Microsoft Windows.

So, to make LinuxCNC nearly universal, hide it inside a product that is
slick and easy to install and use.  No one should have to look at HAL files
or know it runs on Linux.  They can learn, but if learning is required it
will always remain a niche product.

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 6:28 AM Greg Bernard  wrote:

> That's one reason I suggested working on making LinuxCNC more appealing to
> the Maker community. Younger folks would be likely to take up the challenge
> of making such things happen.
>
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020, 2:59 AM andy pugh  wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 07:04, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> > >
> > > If You are thinking of conversational, you might look at Fanuc Macro B
> > > for ideas. Its a tool they had for conversational programming. Pretty
> > > old school appearance but the idea of a macro dialog  interpreter
> > > inside the control was very leading edge in the 80's
> >
> > We have a selection of such things, including ngcgui and nativecam
> > (and my own lathe macros). But they aren't _particularly_ graphically
> > slick.
> > They might actually be just as functional, but they aren't shiny stuff
> > for the tablet users.
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 14:28, Greg Bernard  wrote:
>
> That's one reason I suggested working on making LinuxCNC more appealing to
> the Maker community. Younger folks would be likely to take up the challenge
> of making such things happen.

A bit of a catch-22

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI

2020-09-04 Thread Greg Bernard

That's one reason I suggested working on making LinuxCNC more appealing to
the Maker community. Younger folks would be likely to take up the challenge
of making such things happen.

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020, 2:59 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 07:04, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> >
> > If You are thinking of conversational, you might look at Fanuc Macro B
> > for ideas. Its a tool they had for conversational programming. Pretty
> > old school appearance but the idea of a macro dialog  interpreter
> > inside the control was very leading edge in the 80's
>
> We have a selection of such things, including ngcgui and nativecam
> (and my own lathe macros). But they aren't _particularly_ graphically
> slick.
> They might actually be just as functional, but they aren't shiny stuff
> for the tablet users.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Interesting GUI