Re: [Emc-users] NML communication --> Raspberry

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On 21.07.17 11:36, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > I have been thinking about the beagle bone as a real time computer but
> > still want an ordinary computer as a user interface and this.
> 
> It would certainly fit on the back of the monitor, and runs off 12v,
> provided by the supplied wall-wart. (Plug-pack in Strine.)

I guess it would work very well on robots or other small machines.

I am trying to get nml over network up and running, I could see server is 
listening and it is possible to connect to port but then running axis there is 
an error message:
  s.poll()
  linuxcnc.error: EmcStatusBuffer invalid err=3
I have not yet figured out if I do everything correct.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Jon Elson]

On 07/22/2017 03:26 AM, Frederic RIBLE wrote:

On 22/07/2017 03:58, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

With 0MQ protocol ?

Yes, that is BeagleBone Black and ZeroMQ.
I agree, 7" screen is too small.
Have you checked out Touchy?  It actually is quite usable on 
a 7" touch screen.  You do have to have a run and stop 
button and a jog dial to use Touchy properly.  It is not 
that great for general machine use, but if you want a 
compact control for production work, it is quite fine.  Not 
so good for development work, editing at the machine, etc.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On 22/07/2017 03:58, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > With 0MQ protocol ?
> Yes, that is BeagleBone Black and ZeroMQ.

Great, this make me really happy.

I will take a look on both raspberry and beagle bone, I want SPIs, UARTs, 
ethernet and maybe in the future ethercat. Maybe I give NML one try more 
because I think linuxcnc is newer version otherwise I switch to machinekit but 
this should make no difference for hardware.

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Frederic RIBLE]

On 22/07/2017 03:58, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

With 0MQ protocol ?

Yes, that is BeagleBone Black and ZeroMQ.
I agree, 7" screen is too small.
Good for 3D printing, but not for a more complex CNC machine.
With so small buttons, there is risk of harmful mistakes.
Also, I will add MPG in the future because jogging with screen buttons 
is not convenient.

Frederic.


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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication --> Raspberry

[Erik Christiansen]

On 21.07.17 11:36, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> I have been thinking about the beagle bone as a real time computer but
> still want an ordinary computer as a user interface and this.

Offloading the UI from the beaglebone makes it an even finer RT
platform, I figure. The intermediate of the three Udoo X86 performance
grades serves very well as a video streamer, so it must be adequate for
AXIS, and the TP, if its output is buffered by a queue, I expect.
Streaming one video channel is not enough for it to start up the cooling
fan, so I don't doubt its claim that it can stream to three 4K screens
simultaneously. 

It is a small SBC, 12 x 8.5 cm (4.72" x 3.35"). I bought the optional
on-board M.2 SSD, so the hard drive is included in the handful. It is
possible that something with less performance will be adequate, though.
(The base model is a bit cheaper.)

It would certainly fit on the back of the monitor, and runs off 12v,
provided by the supplied wall-wart. (Plug-pack in Strine.)

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 23:10:31 +0200
Frederic RIBLE  wrote:

> On 19/07/2017 20:01, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > GUI on one computer and real time on other machine.
> I am using Machinekit exactly for that purpose.

With 0MQ protocol ?

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On 19/07/2017 20:01, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > GUI on one computer and real time on other machine.
> I am using Machinekit exactly for that purpose.
> Look at my retrofit using an Android tablet for the GUI: 
> https://youtu.be/LnJv07yeGt0?t=2m

You use beagle bone?


> I am not yet fully satisfied by this setup:  this is a low end tablet 
> and I am experiencing too much latency.

At tablet must also be a little bit small.

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Frederic RIBLE]

On 19/07/2017 20:01, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

GUI on one computer and real time on other machine.

I am using Machinekit exactly for that purpose.
Look at my retrofit using an Android tablet for the GUI: 
https://youtu.be/LnJv07yeGt0?t=2m
I am not yet fully satisfied by this setup:  this is a low end tablet 
and I am experiencing too much latency.

But things are better when using a more powerful tablet, or a PC.
Also, I am using Wifi. IP over USB should be better.

Frederic.
http://cnc.f1oat.org




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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On 07/20/2017 07:14 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:53:15 +0100
> > Les Newell  wrote:
> >
> >> I tried Machinekit fairly recently and managed to run GUI and control on
> >> separate simulated machines but it was a little flaky.
> > 0MQ is pretty new, NML have been there for a long while.
> >
> >
> My understanding of the whole reason to replace NML with 
>  was that NML ships the entire state of the 
> system across the net to all users of part of the data.  
> That can be 10s of KB of state info.  Their implementation 
> of 0MQ was that it only shipped the specific info that was 
> requested for each node or service, greatly reducing network 
> traffic.  This was discussed at a meeting at Tormach 
> probably in 2015, when they had a good chunk of it working.  
> At a later meeting, they said that it was 99% converted over 
> to 0MQ.

It is a change of protocol. I tried to get it up with NML for the first time 
yesterday but are a little bit unsure the start procedure, there are several 
programs run at startup. I simplified the linuxcnc start script yesterday to 
hardcoded format so I could figure which commands are run at startup.

Happen to know if I could use halcmd or other to check if server is up and 
running? On the client do I only need to run axis?

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication --> Raspberry

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 23:48:22 -0500
Jon Elson  wrote:

> On 07/20/2017 07:19 AM, Les Newell wrote:
> > From what I research I have done the Raspberry is more 
> > than a little problematic. The Beagle Bone seems to be the 
> > board of choice for Machinekit. I looked into this and 
> > came to the conclusion it is too much work for no real 
> > gain. You can get small Intel based boxes pretty cheap 
> > these days. I/O tends to be limited but you can use a Mesa 
> > Ethernet based I/O board. Many come with a mini PCIe slot 
> > and you can get mini PCIe to PCIe or PCI adapters quite 
> > easily. For instance on my lathe I use one of these 
> > adapters to run an old 5i20 PCI card.

I am using a quad core right and it does not run perfect but I have a small 
older dual core and it seems to run almost perfect. The small dual core I 
bought used a few years ago for around $30.

> >
> One big advantage of the Beagle Bone is it has the PRU 
> processors (a pair of 200 MHz 32-bit microcontrollers with 
> shared memory to the ARM CPU).  Charles Steinkuehler has 
> written a program for these that implement encoder counters, 
> step generators and PWM generators.  The configuration of 
> these can be done through Hal commands.  He was aiming it 
> mostly at 3D printers, but it is pretty flexible.  I make 
> the CRAMPS board (designed by Charles) that mounts up to 6 
> Pololu-style stepper drivers plus 6 PWM outputs, temp sensor 
> inputs and limit switch inputs right on top of the Beagle 
> Bone board.  it is about 3" square.  So, the entire system 
> fits in the palm of your hand.  You can ssh -X into it, or 
> hook up a screen via XDMI.  Or use USB to network in.

I have been thinking about the beagle bone as a real time computer but still 
want an ordinary computer as a user interface and this.

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication --> Raspberry

[Jon Elson]

On 07/20/2017 07:19 AM, Les Newell wrote:
From what I research I have done the Raspberry is more 
than a little problematic. The Beagle Bone seems to be the 
board of choice for Machinekit. I looked into this and 
came to the conclusion it is too much work for no real 
gain. You can get small Intel based boxes pretty cheap 
these days. I/O tends to be limited but you can use a Mesa 
Ethernet based I/O board. Many come with a mini PCIe slot 
and you can get mini PCIe to PCIe or PCI adapters quite 
easily. For instance on my lathe I use one of these 
adapters to run an old 5i20 PCI card.


One big advantage of the Beagle Bone is it has the PRU 
processors (a pair of 200 MHz 32-bit microcontrollers with 
shared memory to the ARM CPU).  Charles Steinkuehler has 
written a program for these that implement encoder counters, 
step generators and PWM generators.  The configuration of 
these can be done through Hal commands.  He was aiming it 
mostly at 3D printers, but it is pretty flexible.  I make 
the CRAMPS board (designed by Charles) that mounts up to 6 
Pololu-style stepper drivers plus 6 PWM outputs, temp sensor 
inputs and limit switch inputs right on top of the Beagle 
Bone board.  it is about 3" square.  So, the entire system 
fits in the palm of your hand.  You can ssh -X into it, or 
hook up a screen via XDMI.  Or use USB to network in.


So, these PRUs act sort of like super-good software 
stepping, almost as good as a hardware step generator.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Jon Elson]

On 07/20/2017 07:14 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:53:15 +0100
Les Newell  wrote:


I tried Machinekit fairly recently and managed to run GUI and control on
separate simulated machines but it was a little flaky.

0MQ is pretty new, NML have been there for a long while.


My understanding of the whole reason to replace NML with 
 was that NML ships the entire state of the 
system across the net to all users of part of the data.  
That can be 10s of KB of state info.  Their implementation 
of 0MQ was that it only shipped the specific info that was 
requested for each node or service, greatly reducing network 
traffic.  This was discussed at a meeting at Tormach 
probably in 2015, when they had a good chunk of it working.  
At a later meeting, they said that it was 99% converted over 
to 0MQ.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:54:13 -0400
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Thursday 20 July 2017 07:45:38 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> 
> > On 20.07.17 13:18, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > > Here http://nairobi-embedded.org/060_linuxcnc_nml_config.html I
> > > found someone who seems to know what it's all about and mention
> > > v.2.8.0~pre1 which is the latest development version.
> > >
> > > He seems to have the same idea as me, citation below: "Remote
> > > connections are especially useful in setups where EMCSERVER and the
> > > core LinuxCNC modules (i.e. TASK, and the hard realtime motion
> > > control and I/O modules) execute on an embedded device, while a
> > > high-level and graphics intensive user interface (such as bin/axis)
> > > runs on a separate PC workstation."
> >
> > Given the low cost of (optionally 2nd hand) motherboards these days,
> > it is a more rational implementation of a CNC host. It could even save
> > Gene from his alligator-infested Rpi swamp, I figure.
> >
> I expect so. I haven't found the drain plug yet...

What's the problem?

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[dave]

On 07/20/2017 05:28 AM, Les Newell wrote:



There already is a stanardized sockets based interface called NML.


Standardized for LinuxCNC but it is not a generic CNC interface. It is 
also licensed GPL2 which is a problem if you want to use it with 
closed source controllers such as Mach3, Eding CNC, UCCNC, PoKeys etc.




That sound bad. I have not read protocol used for 0MQ yet.


0mq has been around for a while but it simply didn't really fit my 
application. The biggest problem for me was the fact that it hides 
connection status. You have no reliable way to know if you have a 
connection or not. I also had occasional disconnection issues. It is 
quite possible I was doing something dumb to cause the connection 
issues but switching to plain sockets proved to be simpler and more 
reliable.


Les

IIRC ZMQ/0MQ is considerable faster than NML. I suppose it all depends 
on how much bandwidth
one really needs and the reliability.   I had hoped that MK would have 
ZMQ sorted by now.
I like the idea of using a standard video interface and only needing to 
change the motion part of

a system.

Dave
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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 20 July 2017 07:45:38 Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 20.07.17 13:18, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > Here http://nairobi-embedded.org/060_linuxcnc_nml_config.html I
> > found someone who seems to know what it's all about and mention
> > v.2.8.0~pre1 which is the latest development version.
> >
> > He seems to have the same idea as me, citation below: "Remote
> > connections are especially useful in setups where EMCSERVER and the
> > core LinuxCNC modules (i.e. TASK, and the hard realtime motion
> > control and I/O modules) execute on an embedded device, while a
> > high-level and graphics intensive user interface (such as bin/axis)
> > runs on a separate PC workstation."
>
> Given the low cost of (optionally 2nd hand) motherboards these days,
> it is a more rational implementation of a CNC host. It could even save
> Gene from his alligator-infested Rpi swamp, I figure.
>
I expect so. I haven't found the drain plug yet...

> Apropos video performance, I finally have my Udoo X86, and its video
> performance is in another galaxy compared to the old J7F2WE1G5S-OC-LF
> I picked from the list of LinuxCNC compatible hosts a few years ago.
>
> The video is good - I just need to get some audio out. With either a
> hdmi cable or hdmi to vga adaptor plus stereo audio cable, there's
> dead silence out of the shiny new monitor's speakers, unmuted & at 50%
> volume setting in the on-screen menu. (Shoulda married - might have a
> 15 yo to fix it, then.)
>
> Erik
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Les Newell]

There already is a stanardized sockets based interface called NML.


Standardized for LinuxCNC but it is not a generic CNC interface. It is 
also licensed GPL2 which is a problem if you want to use it with closed 
source controllers such as Mach3, Eding CNC, UCCNC, PoKeys etc.




That sound bad. I have not read protocol used for 0MQ yet.


0mq has been around for a while but it simply didn't really fit my 
application. The biggest problem for me was the fact that it hides 
connection status. You have no reliable way to know if you have a 
connection or not. I also had occasional disconnection issues. It is 
quite possible I was doing something dumb to cause the connection issues 
but switching to plain sockets proved to be simpler and more reliable.


Les

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication --> Raspberry

[Les Newell]

From what I research I have done the Raspberry is more than a little 
problematic. The Beagle Bone seems to be the board of choice for 
Machinekit. I looked into this and came to the conclusion it is too much 
work for no real gain. You can get small Intel based boxes pretty cheap 
these days. I/O tends to be limited but you can use a Mesa Ethernet 
based I/O board. Many come with a mini PCIe slot and you can get mini 
PCIe to PCIe or PCI adapters quite easily. For instance on my lathe I 
use one of these adapters to run an old 5i20 PCI card.


One big advantage with sticking to x86 is that if the computer does die 
you can throw any PC at it to get the machine back up and running in a 
hurry.


On my mill and lathe I use Wyse Dx0D thin clients. They are cheap, 
reliable and fanless. Latency isn't great but it is fine for servo use. 
They often turn up on eBay for very little money. They aren't massively 
fast but plenty fast enough for a full LinuxCNC installation.


Les

On 20/07/2017 12:54, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:


Real time work great on raspberry? Or graphics work well on raspberry? Or none 
work well?


Nicklas Karlsson



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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:53:15 +0100
Les Newell  wrote:

> I tried Machinekit fairly recently and managed to run GUI and control on 
> separate simulated machines but it was a little flaky.

0MQ is pretty new, NML have been there for a long while.

> ... In my case I 
> want to run two GUIs on LinuxCNC. I want to run two monitors on my mill, 
> one on the main control console with Axis for general CNC use and one 
> smaller touch screen up close to the table with the three MPG handwheels 
> for manual use. It will have stuff like probing, mdi, setting offsets 
> and a few canned cycles aimed at manual machining. For the touch screen 
> a cheap Windows tablet with Linux installed will hopefully do the trick.

Yes, have been thinking in on similar setups.

> ...
> I have been working on an open source project called CncRemote which is 
> trying to provide a standardized sockets based interface for machine 
> controls.

There already is a stanardized sockets based interface called NML. I found this 
http://nairobi-embedded.org/060_linuxcnc_nml_config.html and currently try to 
figure out how to config. Raspberry or beagle bone might be an option for 
server. I found the nml files in configs/common and they have been there all 
the time.



> ...
> I originally chose 0MQ and protobuf for communications, which 
> coincidentally is the same way machineTalk works, but I had reliability 
> issues with 0MQ and ended up using plain sockets.

That sound bad. I have not read protocol used for 0MQ yet. Something wrong with 
NML?

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication --> Raspberry

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> > Here http://nairobi-embedded.org/060_linuxcnc_nml_config.html I found
> > someone who seems to know what it's all about and mention v.2.8.0~pre1
> > which is the latest development version.
> > 
> > He seems to have the same idea as me, citation below: "Remote
> > connections are especially useful in setups where EMCSERVER and the
> > core LinuxCNC modules (i.e. TASK, and the hard realtime motion control
> > and I/O modules) execute on an embedded device, while a high-level and
> > graphics intensive user interface (such as bin/axis) runs on a
> > separate PC workstation."
> 
> Given the low cost of (optionally 2nd hand) motherboards these days, it
> is a more rational implementation of a CNC host. It could even save Gene
> from his alligator-infested Rpi swamp, I figure.

Real time work great on raspberry? Or graphics work well on raspberry? Or none 
work well?


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Les Newell]

I tried Machinekit fairly recently and managed to run GUI and control on 
separate simulated machines but it was a little flaky. I don't know if I 
had the most recent code as documentation is rather sparse. In my case I 
want to run two GUIs on LinuxCNC. I want to run two monitors on my mill, 
one on the main control console with Axis for general CNC use and one 
smaller touch screen up close to the table with the three MPG handwheels 
for manual use. It will have stuff like probing, mdi, setting offsets 
and a few canned cycles aimed at manual machining. For the touch screen 
a cheap Windows tablet with Linux installed will hopefully do the trick.


Nicklas, you may want to look at this page 
. 
It briefly explains a few options to do what you want without major hacking.


I have been working on an open source project called CncRemote which is 
trying to provide a standardized sockets based interface for machine 
controls. The idea is to allow any CncRemote enabled controller to talk 
to any CncRemote enabled GUI. It is currently very much in beta but I 
have a basic LinuxCNC driver running with Mach3 and EdingCNC in the 
pipeline. I have mainly been developing it to allow Scanything 
 to talk to both open source and 
closed source controllers. The license is MPL which allows it to be used 
with both commercial and GPL applications.


I originally chose 0MQ and protobuf for communications, which 
coincidentally is the same way machineTalk works, but I had reliability 
issues with 0MQ and ended up using plain sockets.


Currently I don't have a CncRemote GUI but many years ago I worked on a 
GUI that was part of a driver I was developing for the ill-fated Gecko 
GREX project. I am thinking of resurrecting that code as a demo 
CncRemote GUI. This probably isn't that helpful for you as it is a 
fairly long term project. CncRemote is under development as part of a 
commercial product so I can justify spending time on it. The GUI is not 
commercial so I can't spend a lot of time on it.


Les

On 20/07/2017 11:39, andy pugh wrote:

On 20 July 2017 at 03:18, Nicklas Karlsson  wrote:


In github I found 112 repositories but quite little activity on machinekit fork

This is the main one:
https://github.com/machinekit/machinekit

It seems fairly active:
https://github.com/machinekit/machinekit/pulse/monthly





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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Erik Christiansen]

On 20.07.17 13:18, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> Here http://nairobi-embedded.org/060_linuxcnc_nml_config.html I found
> someone who seems to know what it's all about and mention v.2.8.0~pre1
> which is the latest development version.
> 
> He seems to have the same idea as me, citation below: "Remote
> connections are especially useful in setups where EMCSERVER and the
> core LinuxCNC modules (i.e. TASK, and the hard realtime motion control
> and I/O modules) execute on an embedded device, while a high-level and
> graphics intensive user interface (such as bin/axis) runs on a
> separate PC workstation."

Given the low cost of (optionally 2nd hand) motherboards these days, it
is a more rational implementation of a CNC host. It could even save Gene
from his alligator-infested Rpi swamp, I figure.

Apropos video performance, I finally have my Udoo X86, and its video
performance is in another galaxy compared to the old J7F2WE1G5S-OC-LF
I picked from the list of LinuxCNC compatible hosts a few years ago.

The video is good - I just need to get some audio out. With either a
hdmi cable or hdmi to vga adaptor plus stereo audio cable, there's dead
silence out of the shiny new monitor's speakers, unmuted & at 50% volume
setting in the on-screen menu. (Shoulda married - might have a 15 yo to
fix it, then.)

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[andy pugh]

On 20 July 2017 at 12:18, Nicklas Karlsson  wrote:

> He seems to have the same idea as me, citation below:
> "Remote connections are especially useful in setups where EMCSERVER and the 
> core LinuxCNC modules (i.e. TASK, and the hard realtime motion control and 
> I/O modules) execute on an embedded device, while a high-level and graphics 
> intensive user interface (such as bin/axis) runs on a separate PC 
> workstation."

I agree that there is something to be said for such an arrangement,
but I am not sure that LinuxCNC is a good starting point.

The point of LinuxCNC is to integrate a full CNC system on
off-the-shelf consumer hardware. It was developed as an _alternative_
to systems like you describe.

For separated realtime and GUI it might well be that things like GRBL
(and similar 3D-printer systems) or Mach4 + Smoothstepper are a more
logical starting point.

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> > In github I found 112 repositories but quite little activity on machinekit 
> > fork
> 
> This is the main one:
> https://github.com/machinekit/machinekit
> 
> It seems fairly active:
> https://github.com/machinekit/machinekit/pulse/monthly

Yes it does, machinekod was less active. I heard machinekit used an older 
version, you know?

Here http://nairobi-embedded.org/060_linuxcnc_nml_config.html I found someone 
who seems to know what it's all about and mention v.2.8.0~pre1 which is the 
latest development version.

He seems to have the same idea as me, citation below:
"Remote connections are especially useful in setups where EMCSERVER and the 
core LinuxCNC modules (i.e. TASK, and the hard realtime motion control and I/O 
modules) execute on an embedded device, while a high-level and graphics 
intensive user interface (such as bin/axis) runs on a separate PC workstation."


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[andy pugh]

On 20 July 2017 at 03:18, Nicklas Karlsson  wrote:

> In github I found 112 repositories but quite little activity on machinekit 
> fork

This is the main one:
https://github.com/machinekit/machinekit

It seems fairly active:
https://github.com/machinekit/machinekit/pulse/monthly


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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Jon Elson]

On 07/19/2017 08:08 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

On 07/20/2017 09:35 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On 19 July 2017 at 19:34, Nicklas Karlsson  wrote:


I have read thru the documentation and do not find it.

I don't know if they have documentation. That's why you were told to
talk to them or look at their code. I think that they were planning to
replace NMP with 0MQ. I don't know if they did.
But the normal use-state for Machinekit is to use a Beaglebone black
for the realtime, (because they are cheap?) then use a normal PC for
the GUI because the BBB has appalling graphics.


Look here for how machinekit does it.

http://machinekoder.com/machinetalk-explained-part-3-technologies/

I read and they have or are working on replacing the protocol. Activity in 
machinekoder repository for cnc machine seems rather low.
I think they have a number of subgroups working in private 
branches.  At least the last time I was with them at 
Tormach, they were still working quite actively on some of 
these projects to make it more flexible.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On 07/19/2017 04:35 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 19 July 2017 at 19:34, Nicklas Karlsson  
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I have read thru the documentation and do not find it.
> > I don't know if they have documentation. That's why you were told to
> > talk to them or look at their code. I think that they were planning to
> > replace NMP with 0MQ. I don't know if they did.
> Yes, my understanding is the 0MQ changeover is pretty well 
> complete for mainline functions.  There might be some 
> optional things that haven't been converted, yet.

Then there is 0MQ instead of NML at the point I want to make the split.

In github I found 112 repositories but quite little activity on machinekit fork 
which should be no suprise with the many things going on, among many others I 
found hal-mode a plugin for editing *.hal file in emacs. Also a remote control 
for telephone.

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Jon Elson]

On 07/19/2017 04:35 PM, andy pugh wrote:

On 19 July 2017 at 19:34, Nicklas Karlsson  wrote:


I have read thru the documentation and do not find it.

I don't know if they have documentation. That's why you were told to
talk to them or look at their code. I think that they were planning to
replace NMP with 0MQ. I don't know if they did.
Yes, my understanding is the 0MQ changeover is pretty well 
complete for mainline functions.  There might be some 
optional things that haven't been converted, yet.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Jon Elson]

On 07/19/2017 01:34 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

HAL spans the divide and lets realtime and non-realtime components talk
to each other easily.

HAL is currently not network-transparent, so components on one computer
can't make HAL net connections to components on a different computer.
This may or may not be an obstacle for your use case.

It is an obstacle since I intend to put them on different computers.




You should talk to the Machinekit folks, or at least browse
their code, as they have done a lot of work in this area.  I
don't know the deep details, I just know they have already
done it.  it was not a minor hack.

I have read thru the documentation and do not find it.

There is axis-remote which may be used to trigger commands remotely. It would 
be a really good tool to drive the operator crazy by triggering the most 
annoying action then least needed.

Yes, their documentation is lagging very far behind the code 
(like years).  You might look through their blogs, as I know 
Michael Haberler described how it worked a couple years ago.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On 07/20/2017 09:35 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 19 July 2017 at 19:34, Nicklas Karlsson  
> > wrote:
> > 
> >> I have read thru the documentation and do not find it.
> > 
> > I don't know if they have documentation. That's why you were told to
> > talk to them or look at their code. I think that they were planning to
> > replace NMP with 0MQ. I don't know if they did.
> > But the normal use-state for Machinekit is to use a Beaglebone black
> > for the realtime, (because they are cheap?) then use a normal PC for
> > the GUI because the BBB has appalling graphics.
> > 
> 
> Look here for how machinekit does it.
> 
> http://machinekoder.com/machinetalk-explained-part-3-technologies/

I read and they have or are working on replacing the protocol. Activity in 
machinekoder repository for cnc machine seems rather low. The blocks will stay 
the same and they seems to work in good direction but I am unsure how far they 
have come.

To split user interface from real time is not a new idea, I think one of my old 
machines around 30 years old use this concept internally.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On 07/20/2017 09:35 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 19 July 2017 at 19:34, Nicklas Karlsson  
> > wrote:
> > 
> >> I have read thru the documentation and do not find it.
> > 
> > I don't know if they have documentation. That's why you were told to
> > talk to them or look at their code. I think that they were planning to
> > replace NMP with 0MQ. I don't know if they did.
> > But the normal use-state for Machinekit is to use a Beaglebone black
> > for the realtime, (because they are cheap?) then use a normal PC for
> > the GUI because the BBB has appalling graphics.
> > 
> 
> Look here for how machinekit does it.
> 
> http://machinekoder.com/machinetalk-explained-part-3-technologies/

That is exactly what I want. I remember last time should read about 0MQ I 
instead found some kind of horrible procedure.

I wonder if 0MQ stand for Zero Message Queue, this is almost always a good 
solution in real time system, if messages start to queue up it is better to use 
the oldest value instead of queue up and removal of queue also have several 
positive effects. Simpler software, better performance, no memory used for 
queue.


Regards Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[James Boulton]

On 07/20/2017 09:35 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 19 July 2017 at 19:34, Nicklas Karlsson  
> wrote:
> 
>> I have read thru the documentation and do not find it.
> 
> I don't know if they have documentation. That's why you were told to
> talk to them or look at their code. I think that they were planning to
> replace NMP with 0MQ. I don't know if they did.
> But the normal use-state for Machinekit is to use a Beaglebone black
> for the realtime, (because they are cheap?) then use a normal PC for
> the GUI because the BBB has appalling graphics.
> 

Look here for how machinekit does it.

http://machinekoder.com/machinetalk-explained-part-3-technologies/




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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[andy pugh]

On 19 July 2017 at 19:34, Nicklas Karlsson  wrote:

> I have read thru the documentation and do not find it.

I don't know if they have documentation. That's why you were told to
talk to them or look at their code. I think that they were planning to
replace NMP with 0MQ. I don't know if they did.
But the normal use-state for Machinekit is to use a Beaglebone black
for the realtime, (because they are cheap?) then use a normal PC for
the GUI because the BBB has appalling graphics.

-- 
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designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication --> linuxcnc is a script

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On 07/19/2017 08:26 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > I have arrived at a point there I am starting to think about
> > splitting linuxcnc in two, one for real time and the other for GUI. I
> > know it have been up before not to long time ago. I guess move EMCMOT
> > and below is what I start with but EMCTASK I am a little bit unsure
> > about.
> >
> > Do anybody have experience of suggestions for this?
> 
> LinuxCNC already is split this way, though in practice almost(?) 
> everyone runs the realtime part and the non-realtime part on the same 
> machine.

I have should have looked before talking and found the linuxcnc is actually a 
script.

In process list I could see io,linuxcncsvr and milltask so I guess several 
tasks are started. Will eat my way thru and try to figure out what is happening.

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On 07/19/2017 08:26 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > I have arrived at a point there I am starting to think about
> > splitting linuxcnc in two, one for real time and the other for GUI. I
> > know it have been up before not to long time ago. I guess move EMCMOT
> > and below is what I start with but EMCTASK I am a little bit unsure
> > about.
> >
> > Do anybody have experience of suggestions for this?
> 
> LinuxCNC already is split this way, though in practice almost(?) 
> everyone runs the realtime part and the non-realtime part on the same 
> machine.

Is it possible to start them separately on two different command lines?



> This diagram shows where the realtime/non-realtime split is:
> 
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/code/code-notes.html#_architecture_overview
> 
> That diagram is a little outdated; it is from before HAL.
> 
> HAL spans the divide and lets realtime and non-realtime components talk 
> to each other easily.
> 
> HAL is currently not network-transparent, so components on one computer 
> can't make HAL net connections to components on a different computer. 
> This may or may not be an obstacle for your use case.

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> >> HAL spans the divide and lets realtime and non-realtime components talk
> >> to each other easily.
> >>
> >> HAL is currently not network-transparent, so components on one computer
> >> can't make HAL net connections to components on a different computer.
> >> This may or may not be an obstacle for your use case.
> > It is an obstacle since I intend to put them on different computers.
> >
> >
> >
> You should talk to the Machinekit folks, or at least browse 
> their code, as they have done a lot of work in this area.  I 
> don't know the deep details, I just know they have already 
> done it.  it was not a minor hack.

I have read thru the documentation and do not find it.

There is axis-remote which may be used to trigger commands remotely. It would 
be a really good tool to drive the operator crazy by triggering the most 
annoying action then least needed.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> Hi Nicklas,
> 
> What exactly are you trying to achieve? If we know more about your 
> project we may be able to suggest solutions.

GUI on one computer and real time on other machine.

My ordinary computer work well but not perfect. With no or low demand on real 
time I could connect to machine with ordinary ethernet connection, more like a 
printer although a user interface is needed.

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Les Newell]

Hi Nicklas,

What exactly are you trying to achieve? If we know more about your 
project we may be able to suggest solutions.


Les

On 19/07/2017 15:26, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

I have arrived at a point there I am starting to think about splitting linuxcnc 
in two, one for real time and the other for GUI. I know it have been up before 
not to long time ago. I guess move EMCMOT and below is what I start with but 
EMCTASK I am a little bit unsure about.

Do anybody have experience of suggestions for this?


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Jon Elson]

On 07/19/2017 10:47 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

...
HAL spans the divide and lets realtime and non-realtime components talk
to each other easily.

HAL is currently not network-transparent, so components on one computer
can't make HAL net connections to components on a different computer.
This may or may not be an obstacle for your use case.

It is an obstacle since I intend to put them on different computers.



You should talk to the Machinekit folks, or at least browse 
their code, as they have done a lot of work in this area.  I 
don't know the deep details, I just know they have already 
done it.  it was not a minor hack.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> ...
> HAL spans the divide and lets realtime and non-realtime components talk 
> to each other easily.
> 
> HAL is currently not network-transparent, so components on one computer 
> can't make HAL net connections to components on a different computer. 
> This may or may not be an obstacle for your use case.

It is an obstacle since I intend to put them on different computers.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] NML communication

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 07/19/2017 08:26 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

I have arrived at a point there I am starting to think about
splitting linuxcnc in two, one for real time and the other for GUI. I
know it have been up before not to long time ago. I guess move EMCMOT
and below is what I start with but EMCTASK I am a little bit unsure
about.

Do anybody have experience of suggestions for this?


LinuxCNC already is split this way, though in practice almost(?) 
everyone runs the realtime part and the non-realtime part on the same 
machine.


This diagram shows where the realtime/non-realtime split is:

http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/code/code-notes.html#_architecture_overview

That diagram is a little outdated; it is from before HAL.

HAL spans the divide and lets realtime and non-realtime components talk 
to each other easily.


HAL is currently not network-transparent, so components on one computer 
can't make HAL net connections to components on a different computer. 
This may or may not be an obstacle for your use case.



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[Emc-users] NML communication

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I have arrived at a point there I am starting to think about splitting linuxcnc 
in two, one for real time and the other for GUI. I know it have been up before 
not to long time ago. I guess move EMCMOT and below is what I start with but 
EMCTASK I am a little bit unsure about. 

Do anybody have experience of suggestions for this?


Nicklas Karlsson

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