Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Gregg Eshelman]

Get a video of it running, moving everything. Then when you sell off the parts 
you won't be keeping you'll be able to get a better price.



  From: Dan Bloomquist <z...@lakeweb.net>
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> 
 Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:01 PM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit
   

Hi Peter,
And now I can see the summing is done right with the input. You guys 
knew what it should be and I just could not connect the dots. Thanks to 
you and Andy for sticking with me. Now it all makes sense.

I just found this, don't know why it did not show in all my previous 
searches:
<http://jmcolee.com/CNC/SD-1525.pdf>

I thought the tach would go to j14 where nothing is plugged in. Sure 
enough the tach wire is hooked to the board, a manual is so helpful. 
What I thought was a strange differential driver voltage was a single 
ended drive and the tach. Yea, they ran the wire up through the Anilam 
board so it confused me for sure.

Today the BIOS battery went dead so I have to enter the proper cylinder 
and sectors drive number to boot. Hopefully I won't have to boot the 
Anilam again, that I have all the info I need now to move forward. I'll 
post my work on the web as I move along.

Thank you very much, Dan.
   
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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Dan Bloomquist]

Hi Peter,
And now I can see the summing is done right with the input. You guys 
knew what it should be and I just could not connect the dots. Thanks to 
you and Andy for sticking with me. Now it all makes sense.

I just found this, don't know why it did not show in all my previous 
searches:


I thought the tach would go to j14 where nothing is plugged in. Sure 
enough the tach wire is hooked to the board, a manual is so helpful. 
What I thought was a strange differential driver voltage was a single 
ended drive and the tach. Yea, they ran the wire up through the Anilam 
board so it confused me for sure.

Today the BIOS battery went dead so I have to enter the proper cylinder 
and sectors drive number to boot. Hopefully I won't have to boot the 
Anilam again, that I have all the info I need now to move forward. I'll 
post my work on the web as I move along.

Thank you very much, Dan.


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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Wed, 1 Feb 2017, Dan Bloomquist wrote:

> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 17:19:51 -0800
> From: Dan Bloomquist <z...@lakeweb.net>
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit
> 
> Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fenner-Servo-Dynamics-Servo-Amplifier-SDF1525-12-SDF152512-AS-IS-/151719664648?hash=item2353325c08:g:0xkAAOSwxYxU0lv4>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/30-cnc-machines/30032-servo-dynamics-brushed-dc-servo-sd1525-tuning
>>
>>
>>
>> The drives do have tachometer inputs (unless the SDF1525 is much
>> different than the SD1525)
>
> Hi Peter, Andy,
> I found that earlier and saved the pdf pages in case I would need them,
> I did think until today they got speed feedback from the motors. But the
> board's tach input have nothing plunged in, so zero and gain would be
> the only meaningful adjustments. What you write Andy is talking me off
> the ledge. I get the DC feedback, I was just surprised it was not
> pulsed. I'm very green to a CNC machine of this class. So I don't see
> the tachs being connected to the 7i77, it doesn't have analog inputs,
> ADC, or there is another way? From your last paragraph, I can just go
> glass into the 7i77 and it will deal with it? I've read that just glass
> in is iffy, but I just don't know.
>
> Best, Dan.
>

I think what may be confusing you is that its entirely possible to have the 
tachometer feedback connected at the controller and have the analog 
subtraction of commanded velocity (from motion commands) and feedback velocity 
(from the tachometer) done somewhere else other than at the drive inputs


>>
>
>
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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[andy pugh]

On 2 February 2017 at 01:19, Dan Bloomquist  wrote:
> So I don't see
> the tachs being connected to the 7i77, it doesn't have analog inputs,
> ADC, or there is another way? From your last paragraph, I can just go
> glass into the 7i77 and it will deal with it? I've read that just glass
> in is iffy, but I just don't know.

The 7i77 doesn't need the tachs if they connect to the drives as
originally set up.

You have two cascaded control loops. There is an all-analogue control
loop with the drives and the tachs in the velocity realm, and then the
7i77 runs a position loop. It compares actal position with desired
position and outputs a velocity command to the analogue velocity loop
(and in the velocity loop the difference between commanded and actual
velocity becomes a motor current).

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Dan Bloomquist]

Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> 
>  
>
>
>
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/30-cnc-machines/30032-servo-dynamics-brushed-dc-servo-sd1525-tuning
>  
>
>
>
> The drives do have tachometer inputs (unless the SDF1525 is much 
> different than the SD1525)

Hi Peter, Andy,
I found that earlier and saved the pdf pages in case I would need them, 
I did think until today they got speed feedback from the motors. But the 
board's tach input have nothing plunged in, so zero and gain would be 
the only meaningful adjustments. What you write Andy is talking me off 
the ledge. I get the DC feedback, I was just surprised it was not 
pulsed. I'm very green to a CNC machine of this class. So I don't see 
the tachs being connected to the 7i77, it doesn't have analog inputs, 
ADC, or there is another way? From your last paragraph, I can just go 
glass into the 7i77 and it will deal with it? I've read that just glass 
in is iffy, but I just don't know.

Best, Dan.

>


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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[andy pugh]

On 2 February 2017 at 00:16, Dan Bloomquist  wrote:
> Next surprise is that what
> I thought were pulsing tachs on the motor shafts are really DC
> generators

That's the very definition of a tachometer.
A tachometer outputs a DC voltage proportional to speed, and a
negative one for reverse rotation.

What you have is a very conventional (and very effective) system.

The servo amps take a voltage input to command a velocity. This
voltage is wired to the tachometer output, such that if the two are
equal, there is zero resulting voltage. Then that sum is amplified to
servo drive current.

This is all analogue, but means that you have a very stiff velocity
control, with none of that digital-realm PID nonsense.

Separate from that, the new-fangled computer looks at the glass scales
and decides how fast to go to correct the current position error,
converts that to a voltage, and applies that to the amps.

So, keep the amps and tachs, that's actually a good system. Like
resolvers, it hasn't been superseded for being bad, it has been
superseded for being expensive. Put LinuxCNC between the glass-scale
input and the servo velocity command output.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Wed, 1 Feb 2017, Dan Bloomquist wrote:

> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 16:16:25 -0800
> From: Dan Bloomquist <z...@lakeweb.net>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit
> 
>
> Well, when I thought this was going to go smoothly, I've run into
> mysteries. At my age you'd think I know better than to assume.
>
> I was working out the details of the current wiring to the Anilam. First
> surprise, there is no motor tach to the servo amplifiers. They use none
> of the PID circuitry on the amp, it is just control voltage in and
> motors turn, a simple pulse width modulator. Next surprise is that what
> I thought were pulsing tachs on the motor shafts are really DC
> generators. I don't see brushes so they must rectify the coil output.
> I'll have to take one 'more' apart to confirm. But the signal is clearly
> DC as I can spin the handle and get about ten volts plus and minus. So
> even more interesting as, 'How do you change the output polarity
> depending on which way it is turning?' !! Has anyone seen a setup like
> this before? I noticed the date on the console schematics are a couple
> of years later than what I think this thing is. The schematic shows what
> look like tach feedback to the amps. But absolutely, they are not there
> on this machine.
>
> So I'm wondering just how well the Mesa system could deal with just
> glass in and motor voltage out. The Anilam does not bounce or even buzz
> on a stopped motor. It just sits locked in place and will fight my turns
> on the handle to stay in place as if a brake were set.
>
> Thanks, Dan.
>


The DC generators are the tachometers (they could have no other purpose)
the question is how the tachometer generators are connected into the system

What are the servo drive part numbers?

>
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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Dan Bloomquist]

Well, when I thought this was going to go smoothly, I've run into 
mysteries. At my age you'd think I know better than to assume.

I was working out the details of the current wiring to the Anilam. First 
surprise, there is no motor tach to the servo amplifiers. They use none 
of the PID circuitry on the amp, it is just control voltage in and 
motors turn, a simple pulse width modulator. Next surprise is that what 
I thought were pulsing tachs on the motor shafts are really DC 
generators. I don't see brushes so they must rectify the coil output. 
I'll have to take one 'more' apart to confirm. But the signal is clearly 
DC as I can spin the handle and get about ten volts plus and minus. So 
even more interesting as, 'How do you change the output polarity 
depending on which way it is turning?' !! Has anyone seen a setup like 
this before? I noticed the date on the console schematics are a couple 
of years later than what I think this thing is. The schematic shows what 
look like tach feedback to the amps. But absolutely, they are not there 
on this machine.

So I'm wondering just how well the Mesa system could deal with just 
glass in and motor voltage out. The Anilam does not bounce or even buzz 
on a stopped motor. It just sits locked in place and will fight my turns 
on the handle to stay in place as if a brake were set.

Thanks, Dan.


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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Dan Bloomquist]

Ok. So I talked to the tech at Mesa today and we came up with the 7i92M 
and 7i77. They plug directly together, no cable and there is plenty of 
i/o on the 77 for this mill and anything else that may come up. I've 
ordered the boards.
Best, Dan.


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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Dan Bloomquist]

andy pugh wrote:
> On 27 January 2017 at 19:38, Dan Bloomquist  wrote:
>> Thanks. What I'm seriously thinking, is going Ethernet. I really like
>> the idea of not marrying the PC to the mill. But the likes of the 7i92
>> won't work with the 7i48.
> How about 7i48 + 7i80HD ?
>
Thanks Andy,
I came across that soon after I posted, gee. Yea, that looks like the 
winning set. And as Mesa vends the combo, I'll assume there is a .bit 
file ready to go. My son has CandCNC via ethernet. Really nice that I 
could pull his PC easily when he lost a hard drive, and fix him up. I 
kept an image of his system, learned to do that kind of thing a long 
time ago!

Hay Gene,
That is what I did also. Early 70's, I started bouncing around TV shops, 
fixing what the tube jockeys couldn't here in Northern California. I 
stayed at it and opened my own shop in 1980 after my son was born.
Best, Dan.

>
P.S. Sorry, I did it again and replied to Andy instead of the group. 
I'll get it stuck in my head to check that from now on.


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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[andy pugh]

On 27 January 2017 at 19:38, Dan Bloomquist  wrote:
> Thanks. What I'm seriously thinking, is going Ethernet. I really like
> the idea of not marrying the PC to the mill. But the likes of the 7i92
> won't work with the 7i48.

How about 7i48 + 7i80HD ?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Dan Bloomquist]

andy pugh wrote:
> On 27 January 2017 at 02:45, Dan Bloomquist  wrote:
>> So what
>> I think I need is the Mesa 7i48. 6 channel servo output with quad
>> encoder inputs. but what I'm not sure about is which of the anything i/o
>> board I should use. I'm guessing that I don't need that much horse
>> power and the likes of the 5I24-25-SP should do?
>
> I like the 5i24, it's a lot of pins for not much money, and I have one
> in my lathe.
>
> However, you should also look at the 5i25 / 7i77 combo.
>
> Also check out Pico PPMC and the General Mechatronics stuff. Both also
> well-supported by LinuxCNC.
>
Hi Andy,
Thanks. What I'm seriously thinking, is going Ethernet. I really like 
the idea of not marrying the PC to the mill. But the likes of the 7i92 
won't work with the 7i48. It wants the likes of a 7i74 and 7i77 combo 
which is $170 more. And I don't know if I could get away with just 
making my own cable and using a 7i92, 7i48 combo. I'm going to run down 
what I can do with the other two vendors you provide.
Best, Dan.



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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[andy pugh]

On 27 January 2017 at 02:45, Dan Bloomquist  wrote:
> So what
> I think I need is the Mesa 7i48. 6 channel servo output with quad
> encoder inputs. but what I'm not sure about is which of the anything i/o
> board I should use. I'm guessing that I don't need that much horse
> power and the likes of the 5I24-25-SP should do?


I like the 5i24, it's a lot of pins for not much money, and I have one
in my lathe.

However, you should also look at the 5i25 / 7i77 combo.

Also check out Pico PPMC and the General Mechatronics stuff. Both also
well-supported by LinuxCNC.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Gregg Eshelman]

Wasn't but 2 or 3 days ago I saw something online for a brand new single board 
computer with PC104, and it wasn't insanely expensive. IIRC under $200. Of 
course I can't find it now. :P

 
  From: Przemek Klosowski <przemek.klosow...@gmail.com>
 To: z...@lakeweb.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
<emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> 
 Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit
   
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 9:45 PM, Dan Bloomquist <da...@lakeweb.net> wrote:
> Another question I have. Would it be a big deal to go PC-104? That would
> really keep the size of the new hardware down. I've never worked with a
> PC-104 before. The pc-104 version of the LX25 board is like $140 more
> than the PCI version. I don't get that.

I think PC-104 is only being kept around because of legacy issues
(industrial and military). I wouldn't put it in a new
project---everything about it is expensive, Even though PC-104 does
support PCI, it uses a non-standard connector so it's just a headache.
On the other hand, it does still have the ISA bus so it is much easier
to add your own hardware.
The small NUC boxes are basically the same size as PC-104---around 4"
on the side.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16856102141
   
 
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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 9:45 PM, Dan Bloomquist  wrote:
> Another question I have. Would it be a big deal to go PC-104? That would
> really keep the size of the new hardware down. I've never worked with a
> PC-104 before. The pc-104 version of the LX25 board is like $140 more
> than the PCI version. I don't get that.

I think PC-104 is only being kept around because of legacy issues
(industrial and military). I wouldn't put it in a new
project---everything about it is expensive, Even though PC-104 does
support PCI, it uses a non-standard connector so it's just a headache.
On the other hand, it does still have the ISA bus so it is much easier
to add your own hardware.
The small NUC boxes are basically the same size as PC-104---around 4"
on the side.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16856102141

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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Dan Bloomquist]

Hi John, all.
Sorry, when I re'd it was just to John instead of the group. So...

I'm back at it. I posted here about a year ago, in this thread. I 
finally got a scope on the wires for my mill. The glass output is 5v 
digital quad output. Looks very close to 5um per step, so I'm going with 
that. The drive on the servos looks like the standard +-10 volts 
differential. But the Anilam is driving one pin at ~25% of the other. 
I'm not worried because with 6 volts the thing moves at 120ipm. So what 
I think I need is the Mesa 7i48. 6 channel servo output with quad 
encoder inputs. but what I'm not sure about is which of the anything i/o 
board I should use. I'm guessing that I don't need that much horse  
power and the likes of the 5I24-25-SP should do? After going through the 
wiring on this mill I now feel comfortable enough to replace the old 
Anilam hardware with new stuff. It will be nice to disappear that huge box.

Another question I have. Would it be a big deal to go PC-104? That would 
really keep the size of the new hardware down. I've never worked with a 
PC-104 before. The pc-104 version of the LX25 board is like $140 more 
than the PCI version. I don't get that. I will keep the servo amp rack 
separate as I'm sure someday I'll replace it with modern/smaller stuff.

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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[John Thornton]

I managed to get the Anilam chief engineer on the phone one day not long 
after purchasing the BP and he walked me through the tuning process of 
the drives. I'll take a look to see if I have the same cards as you or 
not. For the drives part you need the analog velocity pins and the 
enable pin. On my cards to enable a drive you ground the enable. I 
tested mine with  a 1.5v battery with the drive belt off...

JT

On 2/7/2016 6:49 PM, Dan Bloomquist wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>> I'm not sure how close the 1400 is to my 1100M but in the right
>> cabinet is there 3 boards with a connector on top and one on the
>> bottom of each board?
>>
>> http://gnipsel.com/images/bp-knee-mill/bpel01.jpg
>>
>> That's all that's left in my cabinet is the drives and power supply.
> Hi Philipp, John,
> Thanks. Yes, that is all I figured I'd be left with are the H-dirvers
> and power supply. that stuff is on one panel. This is my board. Now that
> I've found this I'm thinking I should make an offer.
> 
>
> The boards were talked about here a couple of years ago
> 
>
> found this:
> 
> but these guys want $55 for 38 pdf pages!
> This looks very similar
> 
>
> Best I can tell the tach signals come back to those boards. I have the
> box wiring diagram, but it only talks colors and not much on functions
> of wires. The boards have lots of pots and op amps so I've always
> guessed velocity feedback was done on those boards. One is labeled
> 'TAC'. From the manual, (very limited info), I get a sense a specific
> velocity is expected per input signal volt. I'm starting to get an itch
> to take an oscilloscope to it while it is running some repetitive back
> and forth code. I will get as much as I can well documented before I
> disconnect the old logic. The motors do belt drive the screws at some 3
> to 1.
>
> And I went back to re-read the Project Sheet Cake page:
> " Our servo motors have two types of feedback, an analog velocity, which
> is fed back to the servo amplifiers directly..."
> "The existing servo amplifiers are Anilam brand amps. TODO: Anilam part
> number here. We don't have ready specs on the amps, but since they work
> with the existing controller, they seem to be serviceable. They take in
> +/-10V for direction and speed, and they receive velocity feedback from
> the motors."
>
> ~~~
>
> It sounds like our tasks are about identical just, that their encoders
> are shaft and mine are glass.
>
> Best, Dan.
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[John Thornton]

I'm not sure how close the 1400 is to my 1100M but in the right cabinet 
is there 3 boards with a connector on top and one on the bottom of each 
board?

http://gnipsel.com/images/bp-knee-mill/bpel01.jpg

That's all that's left in my cabinet is the drives and power supply.

JT

On 2/7/2016 11:06 AM, Dan Bloomquist wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm pretty new to all this, I knew about nothing a year ago, then my son
> needed a plasma table, and being the computer guy, we built it in my
> shop. BTW, he started up his business about 4 months ago and has done
> some amazing work so far.
>
> 
>
> In March I found an Eagle Mill on Ebay and was surprised to take the bid.
>
> 
>
> I did some work with it running with the Anilam, but it has mostly sat
> idle so far. As the days get warmer I want to convert this thing.
> Closest I could find to someone else doing this was 'Project Sheet Cake'.
>
> 
>
>
> What is different is that it their mill positions with motor encoders.
> My mill has tachs on the motors and glass scales. I haven't put a scope
> on the glass but judging from the wires, they are quadrature. I can't
> imagine how it would work if they were not. From what I can find making
> this work takes a bit of thought. It is not as simple as using motor
> encoders directly. So, my first question would be, 'has anyone here done
> a conversion like this?' I'm guessing there will be a set of Mesa boards
> that can handle this job and if someone has done this, that is what they
> used.
>
> Thanks, Dan.
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Philipp Burch]

Hi Dan!

On 07.02.2016 18:06, Dan Bloomquist wrote:
> [...]
> 
> 
> What is different is that it their mill positions with motor encoders. 
> My mill has tachs on the motors and glass scales. I haven't put a scope 
> on the glass but judging from the wires, they are quadrature. I can't 
> imagine how it would work if they were not. From what I can find making 
> this work takes a bit of thought. It is not as simple as using motor 
> encoders directly. So, my first question would be, 'has anyone here done 
> a conversion like this?' I'm guessing there will be a set of Mesa boards 
> that can handle this job and if someone has done this, that is what they 
> used.

Lacking a lot of experience, I can't tell you exactly what to do, but
I'd go for a cascaded controller loop architecture: The inner loop is
for velocity and takes feedback from the tachs, while the outer (slower)
loop controls position by means of the scale feedback. Depending on the
stiffness of the drive train (are there belts or gears between motor and
screw?), you could possibly also get away without using the tachs at
all, by simply calculating the current velocity out of the scale
feedbacks. This would then give you about the same setup as in the
SheetCake project.
Doing this should be quite straightforward, using hardware from Mesa or
from some other supplier, as long as LinuxCNC provides reasonable
support for it.

Bye,
Philipp



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Re: [Emc-users] Eagle mill retro fit

[Dan Bloomquist]

John Thornton wrote:
> I'm not sure how close the 1400 is to my 1100M but in the right 
> cabinet is there 3 boards with a connector on top and one on the 
> bottom of each board?
>
> http://gnipsel.com/images/bp-knee-mill/bpel01.jpg
>
> That's all that's left in my cabinet is the drives and power supply.
Hi Philipp, John,
Thanks. Yes, that is all I figured I'd be left with are the H-dirvers 
and power supply. that stuff is on one panel. This is my board. Now that 
I've found this I'm thinking I should make an offer.


The boards were talked about here a couple of years ago


found this:

but these guys want $55 for 38 pdf pages!
This looks very similar


Best I can tell the tach signals come back to those boards. I have the 
box wiring diagram, but it only talks colors and not much on functions 
of wires. The boards have lots of pots and op amps so I've always 
guessed velocity feedback was done on those boards. One is labeled 
'TAC'. From the manual, (very limited info), I get a sense a specific 
velocity is expected per input signal volt. I'm starting to get an itch 
to take an oscilloscope to it while it is running some repetitive back 
and forth code. I will get as much as I can well documented before I 
disconnect the old logic. The motors do belt drive the screws at some 3 
to 1.

And I went back to re-read the Project Sheet Cake page:
" Our servo motors have two types of feedback, an analog velocity, which 
is fed back to the servo amplifiers directly..."
"The existing servo amplifiers are Anilam brand amps. TODO: Anilam part 
number here. We don't have ready specs on the amps, but since they work 
with the existing controller, they seem to be serviceable. They take in 
+/-10V for direction and speed, and they receive velocity feedback from 
the motors."

~~~

It sounds like our tasks are about identical just, that their encoders 
are shaft and mine are glass.

Best, Dan.


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