subject:"\[E\-devel\] cvs, servers and stuff."

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:15:13 +0200 Stéphane Bauland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 Hisham Mardam Bey wrote:
  On 8/17/06, Lyle Kempler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Personally I don't get why we're not creating nightly diffs and a
  tarball once a week and letting people use that (it's not exactly
  difficult to script). I highly doubt most users care about checkins in
  the last few hours, and I suggested doing so I think way back in January
  on IRC..
 
  
 
  Actually they are. You'd be surprised how many people build E (and
  related stuff) multiple times a day from anoncvs. Again, I agree with
  the majority that is suggesting the mirrors idea. CVS has its quirks
  here and there, but its been doing everything we wanted for a long
  time. I think that having a 2 or 3 anoncvs mirrors should solve our
  problems.
 
 I'm agreeing Hisham, the way to got mirrors is better i think... If 
 raster (etc...) wants to change cvs for svn, git or anything else isn't 
 the problems. Having more than one server is always a good idea.
 
 See ya CodeWaWa :)

i am wanting to open a discussion to solutions. due to peak loads kainx has had
to limit connection #'s - fair enough. this is bad. several anoncvs servers
will help. i think maybe we need to explore other options.

i am loathe to change scm's unless we have to. if we can avoid it - great. i do
NOT deny other scm's have benefits - can do things cvs can't etc. etc. - but
frankly - cvs does everything us developers need. we use only a subset of cvs
too. we don't need the complex features in other scm's - nice though they may
be. the point of this is to try and make anonymous up to date source code
access scale better.

it seems that every scm has its positives and negatives. svn and cvs seem
evenly matched performance-wise, give or take. svn increases the local checkout
cost. git makes this even larger, but server-side is very light. of these 3
main contenders none stand out as a major leap forward for anon access.

so we are down to
1. anon cvs mirrors
2. another system (tarball snaps, etc. etc).

personally i would have no problem in a server-side auto-build of tarballs.
what do people think? should we perhaps have the anoncvs server do daily (or
maybe several times per day) builds of packages? not rpm or deb but make
dist; ie something like the following run maybe every 4 or 8 hours? once a day?

# how much archive to keep in Kb
MAX=1000
# date  time snap
DAT=`date '+%F_%T'`
# make the snap dir
mkdir -p /pub/snaps/$DAT
# latest link to automated snarfers can get the latest always
ln -sf /pub/snaps/$DAT /pub/snaps/LATEST
# get cvs
cvs co e17
cd ./e17
# for everything in the cvs tree with a configure.in
for I in `find . -name configure.in -print`; do
  DIR=`dirname $I`
  PRJ=`basename $DIR`
  pushd $DIR
  # just because it has a configure.in does not mean we want a snap - add a
  # magic file to tell us we want to do the snap
  if [ -f ./.DO-SNAP ]; then
./autogen.sh
make dist
mv $PRJ-*.tar.gz /pub/snaps/$DAT/
  fi
  popd
done
# clean up the checkout
rm -rf ./e17
# clean up old snaps if our archive got to big
SIZ=`du -s /pub/snaps | awk '{printf(%s, $1);}'`
while [ $SIZ -gt $MAX ]; do
  DEL=`/bin/ls /pub/snaps | head -1`
  rm -rf /pub/snaps/$DEL
  SIZ=`du -s /pub/snaps | awk '{printf(%s, $1);}'`
done

We can now make /pub/snaps available over http/ftp etc. etc. - hell, even
generate .torrent seed files. maybe stop advertising anoncvs - and encourage
peoples easy_e17.sh or get_e.sh or emerges etc. to use this repository?
they won't need autofoo anymore as the configure etc. will already be
generated. this also catches broken packages - as they simply will refuse to
build a dist tarball and be skipped. well badly broken - if they don't pass
make distcheck - well... we don't catch that (we can add it though) 

what do you say? would people be willing to switch to such snaps?

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
裸好多
Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本)

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-17 Thread Charles de Noyelle

 what do you say? would people be willing to switch to such snaps?

As user that just wanna have a working e17, so when a bugs is
pulling my leg, I sync every day. When everything just works fine
(as it does this week, for instance), I sync once a month, when
I think about it ;p

Since I use my e17update.sh script, whatever the script does, I do not really 
care !
I like the CVS style, since I can WATCH new files
(and guess whether changes will matter to me), but I would not
care much if I couldn't !

What matters to me is to have a mirror which is as updated as
possible... twice a day would be perfect !

Hope this helps...
Charles de Noyelle



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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-17 Thread Chady Kassouf

On 8/17/06, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
personally i would have no problem in a server-side auto-build of tarballs.what do people think? should we perhaps have the anoncvs server do daily (ormaybe several times per day) builds of packages? not rpm or deb but make
dist; ie something like the following run maybe every 4 or 8 hours? once a day?I think that while this option might be useful for load, it takes a lot more bandwidth, and is bad for users, as they would have to download hundreds of megabytes each time a 1 Kb patch is in.
I vote for the cvs mirrors as at least it's easier on the user's AND the server's bandwidth.-- Chady 'Leviathan' Kassoufhttp://chady.net/

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-17 Thread David Seikel

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:50:22 +0200 Chady Kassouf
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 8/17/06, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 
 
  personally i would have no problem in a server-side auto-build of
  tarballs.
  what do people think? should we perhaps have the anoncvs server do
  daily (or
  maybe several times per day) builds of packages? not rpm or deb but
  make dist; ie something like the following run maybe every 4 or 8
  hours? once a day?
 
 
 I think that while this option might be useful for load, it takes a
 lot more bandwidth, and is bad for users, as they would have to
 download hundreds of megabytes each time a 1 Kb patch is in.
 
 I vote for the cvs mirrors as at least it's easier on the user's AND
 the server's bandwidth.

We have two types of users, those that daily snapshots are good for,
and the cvs junkies.

Let cvs junkies rsync against the unpacked tarballs?

Snapshot it once a day, but build hourly patches against that days
snapshot?

Just throwing out some random ideas.


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-17 Thread Lyle Kempler

* Chady Kassouf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On 8/17/06, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 personally i would have no problem in a server-side auto-build of
 tarballs.  what do people think? should we perhaps have the anoncvs
 server do daily (or maybe several times per day) builds of packages?
 not rpm or deb but make dist; ie something like the following run
 maybe every 4 or 8 hours? once a day?
 I think that while this option might be useful for load, it takes a
 lot more bandwidth, and is bad for users, as they would have to
 download hundreds of megabytes each time a 1 Kb patch is in.
 
 I vote for the cvs mirrors as at least it's easier on the user's AND
 the server's bandwidth.

Eventually I'll corner KainX and he'll tell me what setting I don't have
in mutt to read raster's emails other than through quotes.. anyway..

Were I suggesting merely a new tarball every day, then I'd agree. My
argument was for a weekly tarball and patches otherwise (and it doesn't
just have to be patches since the last weekly tarball). A lot of CPU
time and some bandwidth is consumed determining what changed since the
last time you sync'd up. If you _knew_ where that last sync point was
(e.g., yesterday's diff), then you'd be saving everyone a lot of
resources by just getting the pregenerated, precompressed version,
instead of making CVS do the diff, compressing on the fly (I'd like to
believe most people are using -z3 :)). As I read over and over that
people are using scripts to retrieve everything (be it ebuilds or
hand-rolled), this could easily be switched to.

* Hisham Mardam Bey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On 8/17/06, Lyle Kempler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Personally I don't get why we're not creating nightly diffs and a
  tarball once a week and letting people use that (it's not exactly
  difficult to script). I highly doubt most users care about checkins
  in the last few hours, and I suggested doing so I think way back in
  January on IRC..
 Actually they are. You'd be surprised how many people build E (and
 related stuff) multiple times a day from anoncvs. Again, I agree with
 the majority that is suggesting the mirrors idea. CVS has its quirks
 here and there, but its been doing everything we wanted for a long
 time. I think that having a 2 or 3 anoncvs mirrors should solve our
 problems.

I am actually surprised that so many people are a CVS junkie :) ..
that's good feedback to have. I never advocated dumping the anoncvs
servers. I was saying that we could reduce demand (and therefore improve
performance for the remainder) by providing tarballs. And, as raster
said, there's nothing keeping us from producing patches every 4 hours,
etc..

term

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:37:06 +1000 David Seikel [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:50:22 +0200 Chady Kassouf
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On 8/17/06, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  
  
  
   personally i would have no problem in a server-side auto-build of
   tarballs.
   what do people think? should we perhaps have the anoncvs server do
   daily (or
   maybe several times per day) builds of packages? not rpm or deb but
   make dist; ie something like the following run maybe every 4 or 8
   hours? once a day?
  
  
  I think that while this option might be useful for load, it takes a
  lot more bandwidth, and is bad for users, as they would have to
  download hundreds of megabytes each time a 1 Kb patch is in.
  
  I vote for the cvs mirrors as at least it's easier on the user's AND
  the server's bandwidth.
 
 We have two types of users, those that daily snapshots are good for,
 and the cvs junkies.
 
 Let cvs junkies rsync against the unpacked tarballs?
 
 Snapshot it once a day, but build hourly patches against that days
 snapshot?
 
 Just throwing out some random ideas.

i like the idea of rsync'ed tarball trees (ie do the tarball snap - then do an
unpack of them somewhere and offer that unpacked tree as a public rsync server).


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
裸好多
Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本)

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:50:22 +0200 Chady Kassouf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 On 8/17/06, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
  personally i would have no problem in a server-side auto-build of
  tarballs.
  what do people think? should we perhaps have the anoncvs server do daily
  (or
  maybe several times per day) builds of packages? not rpm or deb but make
  dist; ie something like the following run maybe every 4 or 8 hours? once
  a day?
 
 
 I think that while this option might be useful for load, it takes a lot more
 bandwidth, and is bad for users, as they would have to download hundreds of
 megabytes each time a 1 Kb patch is in.
 
 I vote for the cvs mirrors as at least it's easier on the user's AND the
 server's bandwidth.

actually - they can just download the tarball that changed (and that they
want) :)

frankly though - i think this will then discourage users to update as often as
they need to download more - and this will also be good. remember it also
removes all the what version of autofoo will work thing. they no longer need
to know nor care (and a user should never need to know or care or have any
autofoo even installed)

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
裸好多
Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本)

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:45:19 -0400 Lyle Kempler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 * Chady Kassouf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On 8/17/06, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  personally i would have no problem in a server-side auto-build of
  tarballs.  what do people think? should we perhaps have the anoncvs
  server do daily (or maybe several times per day) builds of packages?
  not rpm or deb but make dist; ie something like the following run
  maybe every 4 or 8 hours? once a day?
  I think that while this option might be useful for load, it takes a
  lot more bandwidth, and is bad for users, as they would have to
  download hundreds of megabytes each time a 1 Kb patch is in.
  
  I vote for the cvs mirrors as at least it's easier on the user's AND
  the server's bandwidth.
 
 Eventually I'll corner KainX and he'll tell me what setting I don't have
 in mutt to read raster's emails other than through quotes.. anyway..
 
 Were I suggesting merely a new tarball every day, then I'd agree. My
 argument was for a weekly tarball and patches otherwise (and it doesn't
 just have to be patches since the last weekly tarball). A lot of CPU
 time and some bandwidth is consumed determining what changed since the
 last time you sync'd up. If you _knew_ where that last sync point was
 (e.g., yesterday's diff), then you'd be saving everyone a lot of
 resources by just getting the pregenerated, precompressed version,
 instead of making CVS do the diff, compressing on the fly (I'd like to
 believe most people are using -z3 :)). As I read over and over that
 people are using scripts to retrieve everything (be it ebuilds or
 hand-rolled), this could easily be switched to.
 
 * Hisham Mardam Bey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On 8/17/06, Lyle Kempler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Personally I don't get why we're not creating nightly diffs and a
   tarball once a week and letting people use that (it's not exactly
   difficult to script). I highly doubt most users care about checkins
   in the last few hours, and I suggested doing so I think way back in
   January on IRC..
  Actually they are. You'd be surprised how many people build E (and
  related stuff) multiple times a day from anoncvs. Again, I agree with
  the majority that is suggesting the mirrors idea. CVS has its quirks
  here and there, but its been doing everything we wanted for a long
  time. I think that having a 2 or 3 anoncvs mirrors should solve our
  problems.
 
 I am actually surprised that so many people are a CVS junkie :) ..
 that's good feedback to have. I never advocated dumping the anoncvs
 servers. I was saying that we could reduce demand (and therefore improve
 performance for the remainder) by providing tarballs. And, as raster
 said, there's nothing keeping us from producing patches every 4 hours,
 etc..

agreed. i am not advocating REMOVING anoncvs as such - just removing it as a
first priority anonymous source access mechanism. putting anoncvs access info
into fineprint in some obscure page linked off a download page. moving the
primary access to something more server-friendly that matches people's needs
better. people dont NEED cvs. developers do. they simply need a way to get the
latest code. also for those speaking of the bandwidth issues - a LOT of people
DONT keep their cvs trees after build they re-checkout a new tree.

so what we need to do is try alleviate the need for anoncvs mirrors and if
there are mirrors - make them last longer bye making an alternate way of
accessing updates available that gives people what they really need in a way
that is light on our resources, and thus can scale better.

imho making dist tarballs is also a good testing mechanism. that is our end
product anyway - a cvs tree where you ned to run autogen.sh (autofoo) is NOT
our target product. it is an intermediate state developers can easily work
with. end users will work with the result of make dist and then do the usual
tar -xf file.tar.gz; cd file; ./configure  make  make install

if we move and encourage the primary mechanism to be this with regular enough
updates that people aren't waiting impatiently for that update/fix - then we
may solve a lot of our problems?

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
裸好多
Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本)

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-17 Thread Michael Jennings

On Friday, 18 August 2006, at 08:21:17 (+0900),
Carsten Haitzler wrote:

 agreed. i am not advocating REMOVING anoncvs as such - just removing
 it as a first priority anonymous source access mechanism. putting
 anoncvs access info into fineprint in some obscure page linked off a
 download page. moving the primary access to something more
 server-friendly that matches people's needs better.

Unfortunately, the only thing this will *actually* accomplish is to
alter the #1 question in #E from Where does raster get all those cute
inflatable sheep?? to How do I get the latest E from CVS?  :-(

 people dont NEED cvs. developers do. they simply need a way to get
 the latest code. also for those speaking of the bandwidth issues -
 a LOT of people DONT keep their cvs trees after build they
 re-checkout a new tree.

Maybe someone should write a cvs pserver patch which disallows
checkouts and only permits updates.  That would alleviate that problem
quite quickly.  :-)

Michael

-- 
Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX)  http://www.kainx.org/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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---
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-17 Thread Essien Ita Essien

Michael Jennings wrote:
 On Friday, 18 August 2006, at 08:21:17 (+0900),
 Carsten Haitzler wrote:

   
 agreed. i am not advocating REMOVING anoncvs as such - just removing
 it as a first priority anonymous source access mechanism. putting
 anoncvs access info into fineprint in some obscure page linked off a
 download page. moving the primary access to something more
 server-friendly that matches people's needs better.
 

 Unfortunately, the only thing this will *actually* accomplish is to
 alter the #1 question in #E from Where does raster get all those cute
 inflatable sheep?? to How do I get the latest E from CVS?  :-(
   
^^^ cute inflatable sheep? i wanna know where he gets them really :)
   
snip

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-17 Thread Michael Jennings

On Thursday, 17 August 2006, at 11:15:50 (+0300),
Eugen Minciu wrote:

 Any statistics on the load when 24 anon checkouts occur?

Not specifically, but over the past 24 hours, the max 1 minute load
average was 17.55, and the max 15 minute load average was 8.56.

Looks like 1800-2200 UTC is our peak time frame.

Michael

-- 
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---
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   -- Jonathan Franzen

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-17 Thread Eugen Minciu

Hi everyone.

I've been doing some thinking today. And I've been doing some testing as well. 
And there are a few things I realized.

The first thing I realized is a reason why the pseudo-benchmark I created was 
giving out evil data. In git's case this is because git does a lot of extra 
operations on the client's disk (unpacking and such) which take up a lot of 
time. During that time the server wouldn't be under any load, which shows why 
the load on the server wasn't anywhere near constant.

And then I realized why git wasn't really doing so well. And at the same time 
this is the reason why cvs isn't doing so well and, frankly no scm possibly 
could.

The problem is that you have a truckload of binary data in the repository. 
There are many reasons why this shouldn't be so.

1) Binary data is way better off distributed in the form of archives, that can 
be mirrored by anyone (I'm thinking at least SF). That way people can get that 
data a lot faster and your server is happy too.

2) You don't change the binary data that much. And even when you do so, you 
could pacakge your data into archives like imlib2-data.tar.bz2 so that you 
repackage less.

3) Changes in binary data don't generally affect dependencies. They're not like 
API changes or whatever. Most of the time people will just need to grab one 
updated archive and that's it.

4) You could then use pkg-config to ensure the right version of the data is 
actually installed from your configure scripts.

5) Let's do some simple math. 

You have 100MB worth of files. These account to 60MB binary and 40MB text. When 
you try to compress this, as git does, you get around 50MB binary and 8MB test. 
So that accounts for almost 60MB. 

That means for every 60 people that would simultaneously download through CVS 
you can have 100 download through git (let's just ignore the other factors and 
focus on bandwith a little).

Now suppose you have 40MB of text. With git you can then down to about 20% of 
the original size (maybe less, who knows). That means you could (in theory) 
actually have 5 times more downloads with git then with CVS.

Now I'm not saying to not keep that data in a repo. You obviously have to. I'm 
just saying there's no need for people to have anonymous access to that repo, 
it could be for developers only.

So, my suggestions are:
1) Move the data into its own repository
2) Convert the two repositories to git
3) Make that data repository devel-only.
4) Split the data into small packages (one for each data/ dir in the tree, I 
guess)
5) Make the source require the data through pkg-config
6) Have the data released as tarballs once it's changed (you can have that 
happen automatically with git, I'm assuming you can with the others as well)

And that's it. But for all this babbling, is this really worth it? 
Like I said, I found client-side disk I/O to make the benchmarks mostly 
useless. But they still provide me with a good overview on server-side CPU  
Memory usage

So I opted for a new approach. I would have two terminals on my client. In one 
I'd do something like 'sleep 5 ; svn checkout ...'. In the second I'd do 'time 
read'. I would press enter once when network traffic actually began and once 
again when it stopped and that showed me how much everything took.

So here's the timings. The repos have no history attatched.

Repo with data:
CVS:0:46
SVN(svnserve):  1:16
SVN(HTTP):  1:58
GIT(git):   1:23
GIT(HTTP):  1:53

Same repo without data:
CVS:0:12
SVN(svnserve):  0:28
SVN(http):  0:37
GIT(http):  0:13

And what about Git with its built in protocol? Just six seconds. How's that for 
taking some load off :) Of course you have to add/substract 1s for my timings 
on the keyboard but you get the overall idea.

This is a very complicated way of doing things. But data should probably be 
separated from code. And it should probably be distributed in small archives. 
And people shouldn't have to use an SCM to get it.

So ... Wadda ya say. Is this too complicated/ not worth it / stupid / 
braindamaged / interesting ?

My brain farts more things like that on a regular basis. If the above makes 
sense, let me know and I'll give you a couple of other ideas as well :d

Eugen.

P.S: I knew Linus wouldn't lie ;)

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-17 Thread Laurence Vanek

Chady Kassouf wrote:
 On 8/17/06, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 personally i would have no problem in a server-side auto-build of
 tarballs.
 what do people think? should we perhaps have the anoncvs server do daily
 (or
 maybe several times per day) builds of packages? not rpm or deb but make
 dist; ie something like the following run maybe every 4 or 8 hours? once
 a day?
 
 
 I think that while this option might be useful for load, it takes a lot
 more
 bandwidth, and is bad for users, as they would have to download hundreds of
 megabytes each time a 1 Kb patch is in.
 
 I vote for the cvs mirrors as at least it's easier on the user's AND the
 server's bandwidth.
 
forget the tarballs.  As a user I vote also for the cvs mirrors.

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 06:04:37 +0300 Eugen Minciu [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 Hi everyone.
 
 I've been doing some thinking today. And I've been doing some testing as
 well. And there are a few things I realized.
 
 The first thing I realized is a reason why the pseudo-benchmark I created was
 giving out evil data. In git's case this is because git does a lot of extra
 operations on the client's disk (unpacking and such) which take up a lot of
 time. During that time the server wouldn't be under any load, which shows why
 the load on the server wasn't anywhere near constant.
 
 And then I realized why git wasn't really doing so well. And at the same time
 this is the reason why cvs isn't doing so well and, frankly no scm possibly
 could.
 
 The problem is that you have a truckload of binary data in the repository.
 There are many reasons why this shouldn't be so.
 
 1) Binary data is way better off distributed in the form of archives, that
 can be mirrored by anyone (I'm thinking at least SF). That way people can get
 that data a lot faster and your server is happy too.
 
 2) You don't change the binary data that much. And even when you do so, you
 could pacakge your data into archives like imlib2-data.tar.bz2 so that you
 repackage less.
 
 3) Changes in binary data don't generally affect dependencies. They're not
 like API changes or whatever. Most of the time people will just need to grab
 one updated archive and that's it.
 
 4) You could then use pkg-config to ensure the right version of the data is
 actually installed from your configure scripts.
 
 5) Let's do some simple math. 
 
 You have 100MB worth of files. These account to 60MB binary and 40MB text.
 When you try to compress this, as git does, you get around 50MB binary and
 8MB test. So that accounts for almost 60MB. 
 
 That means for every 60 people that would simultaneously download through CVS
 you can have 100 download through git (let's just ignore the other factors
 and focus on bandwith a little).
 
 Now suppose you have 40MB of text. With git you can then down to about 20% of
 the original size (maybe less, who knows). That means you could (in theory)
 actually have 5 times more downloads with git then with CVS.
 
 Now I'm not saying to not keep that data in a repo. You obviously have to.
 I'm just saying there's no need for people to have anonymous access to that
 repo, it could be for developers only.
 
 So, my suggestions are:
 1) Move the data into its own repository

not going to happen. the data is an internal part of the projects - it gets
modifed 8new icons, images etc.) and is part of the build process. so not going
to happen. the code is useless without the data - there is no point splitting
it and doing so is a tonne of work that makes building more painful for
developers and users.

 2) Convert the two repositories to git
 3) Make that data repository devel-only.
 4) Split the data into small packages (one for each data/ dir in the tree, I
 guess)
 5) Make the source require the data through pkg-config
 6) Have the data released as tarballs once it's changed (you can have that
 happen automatically with git, I'm assuming you can with the others as well)

at this point - why bother with git at all. just ake tarball snaps. much less
effort.

 And that's it. But for all this babbling, is this really worth it? 
 Like I said, I found client-side disk I/O to make the benchmarks mostly
 useless. But they still provide me with a good overview on server-side CPU 
 Memory usage
 
 So I opted for a new approach. I would have two terminals on my client. In
 one I'd do something like 'sleep 5 ; svn checkout ...'. In the second I'd do
 'time read'. I would press enter once when network traffic actually began and
 once again when it stopped and that showed me how much everything took.
 
 So here's the timings. The repos have no history attatched.
 
 Repo with data:
 CVS:  0:46
 SVN(svnserve):1:16
 SVN(HTTP):1:58
 GIT(git): 1:23
 GIT(HTTP):1:53
 
 Same repo without data:
 CVS:  0:12
 SVN(svnserve):0:28
 SVN(http):0:37
 GIT(http):0:13
 
 And what about Git with its built in protocol? Just six seconds. How's that
 for taking some load off :) Of course you have to add/substract 1s for my
 timings on the keyboard but you get the overall idea.
 
 This is a very complicated way of doing things. But data should probably be
 separated from code. And it should probably be distributed in small archives.
 And people shouldn't have to use an SCM to get it.
 
 So ... Wadda ya say. Is this too complicated/ not worth it / stupid /
 braindamaged / interesting ?
 
 My brain farts more things like that on a regular basis. If the above makes
 sense, let me know and I'll give you a couple of other ideas as well :d
 
 Eugen.
 
 P.S: I knew Linus wouldn't lie ;)

though git seems nice - i am beginning to think its not going to solve a

Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-16 Thread Dènis Riedijk

You can always ask some help on git@vger.kernel.org.Personally I have been following the development of git from a technical point of view out of interest, but at the moment I do not have a linux box unfortunately so I have not been able to play with it. It also has a tool (gitk) that visualizes merges etc.)
What I can say is that from a usability point of view it is very fast (that was Linus' number one design rule when he wrote git)For download performance it is probably important to pack the repository before checking out from a client. Pack files are supposed to help a lot with regards to network performance if I understand correct.
Some links :http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitBenchmarkshttp://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/cvs-migration.html
Which projects use git? (X.org e.g.)http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitProjectshttp://freedesktop.org/wiki/UsingGit
the web interface :http://www.kernel.org/git/some history of why Linus started it.http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitHistory
Hope this is of help to some.DènisOn 8/16/06, Eugen Minciu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:07:16 +0900Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: actually - i think we need to know how this works WITH data on disk - why? some scm's may invoke much more disk IO than others and thus bottleneck at the disk earlier than others. we need to know. unless you mean save on the client side -
then thats fine. but its server-side we really care about here - remember :)Well ... it was client side, but it didn't work as I couldn't find a way to send the files to the bit bucket with either svn or git.
word seems to have it that git is da shitsnizzle when it comes to performance - but i am going to want to see the numbers. how many clients can connect and checkout and/or update and how long does it take vs. the load on the server etc.
Well I oficially declare my numbers crap. I hold my laptop responsible for this mess and I don't really trust a single number here. And I'll explain why in a minute.Here are the numbers, but as I said, I really don't think they should be considered usefull. Consider this to be FUD.
CVS:- CPU Load: Max- Mem Load: 45%- Checkout Time: 296.374sSVN:- CPU Load: 20% ( It was 20% in the last test as well I believe, all processes seem to share the same CPU usage.)- Mem Load: 40%
- Checkout Time: 658.576SVN/HTTP:- CPU Load: 70-90%- Mem Load: 60%- Checkout Time: 874.618GIT (git protocol):- CPU Load: Max- Mem Load: 10-15%- Checkout Time: 2345.243GIT (http):
- CPU Load: 5%- Mem Load: 10-12%- Checkout Time: A lot, from what I could see, it was cloning at a very low rate.I used actual disk access on both the client and the server, Apache2-mpm-worker, SVN with FSFS and that's about it. A spec of machines would be missing the point. The point is they aren't any good for these kinds of benchmarks.
It looks really suspicious to me that times seem to increase linearly among the tested SCMs, even though this wasn't the case in the first test.Also, I often found network traffic dropping to 0 because the laptop's HDD couldn't take the heat anymore.
Also, the version of the script I tested with did not wait after one SCM finished and moved directly to the next one. I don't think that was a good idea.Now, Git with http was excellent in terms of CPU Memory usage but I'm not really sure why it wouldn't go past
1.5MB/s (ever). It would have probably taken me an hour or so, and that's on a LAN which is pretty much unacceptable.But here's the script. Feel free to change the number of threads at the top of the script (it's currently at 20) but please make note that you need about 180MBx number of threads available.
Change the lines near the top to specify how the checkout commands should be run in your environment. If you want to add another test but lack the Ruby know-how just tell me what you need and I'll patch it up for you.
Finally make a new directory, copy the script there and execute 'ruby scm_benchmark.rb'. And that's it.So ultimately I urge someone with more patience and two solid machines to give my little test a spin. Please don't make any decision based on my data. Pretty please! And Carsten, if this doesn't turn you on, I'm sorry ;)
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-16 Thread Vincent Torri



On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

 i think i should check git. i know svn enough to know its a viable move from
 cvs - but i know very little of git - but from the comments - it seems good
 (these days) - though much more radical than  move to svn :)

Then try xcb :) (http://freedesktop.org/wiki/UsingGit)

Vincent

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-16 Thread Shish

 now if you can - try slowing down the server.

I'm running a box I found in the trash, with a designed for windows
95 sticker on the side; I would hope that's slow enough :P

On the down side, cvs2svn is taking ages -- it's currently translating
cvs commit 3000 / 25000 after about 3 hours... (the only *problem*
encountered with conversion is that two people had used the name a
for different branches / tags)

-- Shish

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-16 Thread Solerman Kaplon

Dènis Riedijk escreveu:
 What I can say is that from a usability point of view it is very fast 
 (that was Linus' number one design rule when he wrote git)
 For download performance it is probably important to pack the 
 repository before checking out from a client. Pack files are supposed 
 to help a lot with regards to network performance if I understand 
 correct.

 Some links :
[snip]
Adding to that list, here's the mail from cairo when they converted to 
git, lot's of usefull info: 
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/cairo/2006-February/006335.html
I'm pretty sure some of that is outdated, since I remind posts changing 
some things and scripts created to handle things easier and then it was 
before some other things got fixed in git. I couldn't find if these 
where put somewhere, their wiki doesn't have anything about it.

Solerman

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-16 Thread Andrew Williams

It is better (imho) the disk space issue is valid, BUT it is not
server-side but client site.
The svn repo is pretty light on the server (no heavier than CVS, cp
commands are lightweight copies which can help) but on the client side
there is pretty much 2 copies of everything (i.e. a cache of the server
- this makes diff etc light on bandwidth).

I think it will help load a lot, it has done in my other projects already.

A

Inc wrote:
 well, I've done a bit of a research on SVN vs. CVS. The general census 
 is that SVN was created to improve and replace CVS. I have heard its 
 kinder to network resources and cpu usage and what not. The only thing 
 is that it needs more disk space. Which honestly with the servers that 
 we are looking at, that shouldn't matter. Also, yes this is a slightly 
 stupid reason to use SVN, but I have enjoyed using SVN with trac for 
 the web based source browser... It provides a great wiki / landmarks 
 and what not. I enjoy it. Anyways thats just my take on the SVN vs. CVS

 -- 
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 www.inc-omplete.org http://www.inc-omplete.org
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-16 Thread Andrew Williams

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

 i think i should check git. i know svn enough to know its a viable move from
 cvs - but i know very little of git - but from the comments - it seems good
 (these days) - though much more radical than  move to svn :)

   
Of course one reason for using SVN rather than any other non-cvs system
is that it is almost exactly the same to a user. No radical updates - it
just works ;)

A

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-16 Thread Andrew Williams

David Seikel wrote:
 On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 00:41:34 -0400 Michael Jennings [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

   
 FUD.  You can tag CVS without having a checkout.  (Try cvs -H rtag.)
 And SVN doesn't even HAVE tagging.  It has copying, which contrary to
 popular (SVN developer) belief, is NOT the same thing.  A (non-branch)
 tag is a symbolic name assigned to a particular state of the
 repository (i.e., a changeset).  It is not a copy.
 

 Tagging and branching, when was the last time either occurred to E?
  
   
Tagging may be a symbolic name in CVS but the svn tagged copy idea 
is pretty much the same - it is a snapshot of the repository at a point 
in time given a name.
Remember here that SVN uses light copy - it is not a copy of the actual 
repos at all - list a link very like cvs tags, when you think about it.

A

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-16 Thread Eugen Minciu

Hello again,

I was thinking that you might want to try something if you get a second machine 
up.

From the man page of git-cvsimport:
Imports a CVS repository into git. It will either create a new repository, or 
incrementally import into an existing one.

So you might want to try using a git mirror of what you guys actually have on 
CVS. Now personally, I think moving to git alltogether is much better then this 
follow the cvs server sort of thing. There are just a couple of things that 
are really cool about git (and any distributed scm) versus cvs or svn. 

For those of you who know git well enough, sorry for writing this stuff, but I 
imagine there's an equal number of devs who don't so I just wanted to give 
people an idea on what it's about.

1) Local commits. You clone a remote repository (you get the history and 
everything) and you can then commit to your own local copy of the repository. 

Not only that but you can do just about everything you would do with cvs 
locally without even needing access to the server. Then when you're done you 
can merge your superfanstasticincredible feature with the main repository.

2) Local tags and branches. Well, it's part of what I said above but it should 
get some special notice. You get to branch from what you just cloned and so on 
...

3) It's easy to setup. Basically you don't need to set it up at all. You just 
copy the .git/ directory from your repository to a server in something like 
http://e.org/e.git and you're all done. Then anyone can mirror it very easily.

4) The repository is well compacted with git-repack. For example, the part of 
the repository I had was 135MB in size (e17 without the history). With 
git-repack it all shrunk down to 52MB. Thanks for pointing that out, I wasn't 
aware of it.

5) The server seems to handle the load quite well, even though downloads may be 
a tad slower. Ultimately, the compression might turn out to make retrieving 
faster, and it is probably 

Now I know those so called benchmarks of mine don't indicate these but I have 
strong doubts about the conditions in which they are run. I believe git to be 
much faster then cvs if properly set up. And I've seen first hand that it 
doesn't beat the server to death on 20 simultaneous checkouts.

6) It can be mirrored and offered for retrieval in a variety of methods. 
There's git:// rsync:// and http:// and it can probably be setup with other 
webservers like lighttpd (though my attempts to use lighttpd with a git repo 
misteriously failed).

7) A larger emphasys on branching may actually be good. You might eventually 
want to create a more stable branch, or you might want to try to rewrite some 
library in the EFL, in a new cooler way or whatever.

Ultimately that's my best argument for it. With git you can do stuff like that 
in a more natural way and I generally found that it offers an almost unlimited 
degree of freedom. 

I tend to believe it's more efficient but I can't really back my claim up with 
consistent numbers. I have provided a way to test it but my hardware isn't cut 
out for that. I'm still waiting for someone else's benchmark...

But finally, the best way to test would be to use that second machine as a git 
mirror and see how well it behaves. You might even go as far as denying anoncvs 
for a while and telling people to use git for anonymous access instead. 

Well, anyway, you guys know better then I do. If you decide to keep on using 
CVS, I could make some sort of script to do CVS updates and make dist stuff on 
an event (like upon email notification or whatever), but it would have to be in 
Ruby. I can do that if you want to use SVN or Git as well. Your call. 

Cheers,
Eugen.

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-16 Thread The Rasterman

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:51:39 +0100 Andrew Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 
  i think i should check git. i know svn enough to know its a viable move from
  cvs - but i know very little of git - but from the comments - it seems good
  (these days) - though much more radical than  move to svn :)
 

 Of course one reason for using SVN rather than any other non-cvs system
 is that it is almost exactly the same to a user. No radical updates - it
 just works ;)

true - no radical learning curve and back to work. of course - as i said - we
could have other options, like nuke anoncvs and replace it with server-side
generated tarballs.

 A
 
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-16 Thread Michael Jennings

On Tuesday, 15 August 2006, at 14:48:36 (-0500),
Nathan Ingersoll wrote:

 Do we have any current statistics about the load on a CVS mirror?
 Might be easier to find more mirrors if we can give them some idea
 what sort of bandwidth, disk use and CPU load they can expect.

The repository currently requires just over 800MB.  The anoncvs server
has transmitted 206GB in the past 19 days, so about 11GB/day or so.
CPU load depends entirely on the box, but anoncvs is a P4 1.7 GHz with
15 minute load averages fairly consistently under 2.  And it's doing
several things, not just anoncvs.  So YMMV.



On Wednesday, 16 August 2006, at 08:43:22 (+0900),
Carsten Haitzler wrote:

 the compelling reason is that (apparently) anoncvs is straining
 under its load (again) and this happened so quickly that i am
 putting up a debate for alternate solutions - willing to discuss
 really anything :)

Not exactly.  The machine is doing fine; the only problem is that I
had to limit simultaneous CVS pserver connections to 1 per IP and 24
total to keep the box usable.  The result is that some people will
have their connections refused during peak times, but the machine
spends an awful lot of time doing nothing too, so unless everyone hits
it all at once, it's fine.

Would it help if I figured out the peak times for anoncvs and made
those public so that folks could schedule updates for other times?



On Tuesday, 15 August 2006, at 20:20:40 (-0400),
Kevin Brosius wrote:

 Hmmm. I'm not sure I see the logic that way.  We moved off sf to get
 the ability to do rsync backup of cvs (one of the reasons, along
 with some intermittent performance of dev and anon cvs.)  We now
 have solid dev cvs performance, rsync access, and better anon access
 (IMO.)

I agree.  I don't think it's quite time to throw in the towel.  I
think we just need one or two additional anoncvs boxes to share the
load.

 Are you against requesting offers of open anon mirrors?  With the
 rsync access, that seems easy, but of you want a anon cvs farm that
 has full status monitoring, then you're stepping the complexity up a
 bit.

As it stands now, anyone can run an anoncvs mirror simply by rsyncing
periodically.  If we had enough volunteers, we could create a mirror
list

Michael

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread David Sharp

On 8/14/06, Michael Jennings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Monday, 14 August 2006, at 13:42:19 (+0900),
 Carsten Haitzler wrote:

snip

  checkouts from svn are just ridiculous. agreed. but its the server
  side i am asking about. as i said - i HEARD it is easier on the
  server - i am after details from those having been there, done that.

 I have not run an anon SVN server, so I can't speak to that point.  I
 can only say that it makes no sense that a standalone, dedicated
 server like cvs would have less overhead than Apache, which we all
 know is a web server, a shared filesystem server, an embedded language
 engine, a proxy server, an authentication and authorization system,
 ...need I go on?  :-)

  yeah - bdb - oh yay. lets break format all the time.. ;)

 If you think BDB was bad, Subversion is just as bad.  Upgrading from
 one version of svn-server to another can often involve a change of
 repository format, in which case the ONLY migration path is the
 following:

as others have pointed out, you do not have to use BDB, and i would go
so far as to say FSFS is the only practical way to use subversion.
However, FSFS has the distinct disadvantage of being very slow on
initial checkout (svn folks themselves say about 2x as slow as BDB),
since it only stores deltas, and must essentially read the entire
server repository to reply. As much as I like svn, i think this fact
alone i think eliminates SVN as a choice for anonymous access.

snip

 On Monday, 14 August 2006, at 23:51:19 (+0100),
 Shish wrote:

  I've only ever used Apache + mod_svn myself though.

 Exactly.  Have you met anyone who uses SVN without Apache?  Neither
 have I.

i have used a repository that uses svnserve, but only administered
any using webdav. From the user's perspective, it is indistinguishable
except that the repo url begins with svn:// instead of http://;

  Even if you do go the apache + mod_svn route, since when was apache
  known for being bloated and slow?

 Since about 1.2, I think.

  I've found tagging much cleaner, and you don't need to check anything
  out at all:
 
  svn cp http://server/project/trunk http://server/project/tags/0.4.2

 FUD.  You can tag CVS without having a checkout.  (Try cvs -H rtag.)
 And SVN doesn't even HAVE tagging.  It has copying, which contrary to
 popular (SVN developer) belief, is NOT the same thing.  A (non-branch)
 tag is a symbolic name assigned to a particular state of the
 repository (i.e., a changeset).  It is not a copy.

speaking of FUD...

how is a zero-copy copy different from a tag? yes, you have to name it
correctly to avoid confusion, and you have to be careful not to modify
it (although you can set also props to prevent that, and the tags
directory is a good hint), but for all intents and purposes, it is
equivalent to a tag. svn log will even give you a full history of
files in the branch/tag beyond the branch/tag point.
http://svnbook.red-bean.com/nightly/en/svn.branchmerge.tags.html

also, you do not need to do a full check out after creating a
tag/branch/copy. you can use svn switch. to use the above example:

svn cp http://server/project/trunk http://server/project/tags/0.4.2
cd /path/to/your/checkout/of/trunk
svn switch http://server/project/tags/0.4.2

svn switch only contacts the server to get any changes since your most
recent update.
http://svnbook.red-bean.com/nightly/en/svn.branchmerge.switchwc.html

 But again, this is all moot.  I'm sure there are numerous people who
 would love to argue with me till doomsday about how great and
 wonderful Subversion is; many others have already tried.  It does
 absolutely NOTHING to address the question at hand:  Is anonymous SVN
 easier on the server than anonymous cvs?

i will stop trying to convince you then ;) . and my answer to the
question at hand is: most probably no. i would guess that git would be
a better solution, but i have never used it.


  Unfortunately for the topic at hand, the only thing I can't say for
  certain is SVN is better at dealing with server-killing loads caused
  by vast numbers of anon checkouts.

 While this comment would certainly be relevant, your subsequent
 comments lead me to believe you don't have the evidence to back it
 up.  We're talking about significant numbers of checkouts (i.e.,
 apples), and you're talking about web browsing (oranges).

on the other hand, i would say there is sufficient (albeit
theoretical) evidence that SVN would not be a good performer for
high-load anonymous access.

d#


 Michael


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread Rogelio Serrano

On 8/14/06, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 1. devel cvs server + future web server (for downloads too of official
 tarballs etc.)
 2. an anonymous cvs server and possibly second download mirror.

 so 2 systems really.

 i hear that svn is significantly less load for anonymous access - even
 developer - who has experience with this server-side? can you confirm or deny?
 i would consider a possible move to svn if we can keep our history from cvs.

 so - let the flames begin.


What about git? You can easily move cvs history over to git.

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

I will try to benchmark cvs, subversion and git today. If this doesn't take me 
too long I might throw in Mercurial as well.

I'll set up a (insert one of the above SCMs) server on my desktop, with the 
repository on a tmpfs, with the enlightenment repository, and I'll grab it 100 
times with my laptop on tmpfs as well, or maybe even more. 

That way I think I have a pretty good way of assessing exactly how well the 
server handles that kind of a load. I'll use tmpfs so that, my hdds aren't a 
bottleneck. The network works quite well, I hit 9MB/s on a regular basis so 
that should not be a problem either. 

There are basically 3 things I will be checking, and I'll average the results:
1) How much does it take to checkout the repository?
2) What is the average load on the machine during this time, in terms of CPU 
and Memory
3) How much network bandwidth is being used in the process.

I'll post the exact details when I'm done but I think it's better that we see 
some hard numbers and not just try to convince everyone to use our own 
favorite. (Though in the process I hope I'll be able to convince you to use 
git).

I'll post the exact way I did this so that people may replicate what I've done 
if anyone desires so.

Cheers,
Eugen.

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread Stéphane Bauland

And what do you think about opening some mirrors ?

I know that raster enjoys knowing the numbers of people using the cvs, 
etc...
Maybe, mirrors could give statistics and works togethers...

An other possibility is to make the official source's tree under cvs, 
and make a git mirror, an other under svn etc...


I could host one. Just said me if you are interessted.


Stepane 'rookmoot' Bauland



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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread brian . mattern

On Tue, Aug 15, 2006 at 11:41:09AM +0300, Eugen Minciu wrote:
 I will try to benchmark cvs, subversion and git today. If this doesn't take 
 me too long I might throw in Mercurial as well.

Thanks! Be sure to post the results on the web somewhere, as I'm sure
other large projects may be interested in this sort of data.

rephorm


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread Shish

I was just about to say the same thing; the only thing I lack is a
suitably huge CVS repository to start with -- is there any way for me
to make a local mirror of E's whole repository? Google fails me the
specific procedure...


 tmpfs,

In real life disks will be involved, it'd probably be good to take
them into account. (I'd recommend doing both, to see what effect the
disks have)


 I'll grab it 100 times with my laptop

I was thinking a more appropriate benchmark would be to see how many
parallel checkouts can be done at once before performance starts
dropping

-- Shish

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread David Seikel

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:55:50 +0100 Shish [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 I was just about to say the same thing; the only thing I lack is a
 suitably huge CVS repository to start with -- is there any way for me
 to make a local mirror of E's whole repository? Google fails me the
 specific procedure...
 
 
  tmpfs,
 
 In real life disks will be involved, it'd probably be good to take
 them into account. (I'd recommend doing both, to see what effect the
 disks have)
 
 
  I'll grab it 100 times with my laptop
 
 I was thinking a more appropriate benchmark would be to see how many
 parallel checkouts can be done at once before performance starts
 dropping

Don't forget the most crucial of benchmarks - how long will it take
raster to rsync his local working copy?


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:55:50 +0100
Shish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In real life disks will be involved, it'd probably be good to take
 them into account. (I'd recommend doing both, to see what effect the
  I'll grab it 100 times with my laptop
 ... 
 I was thinking a more appropriate benchmark would be to see how many
 parallel checkouts can be done at once before performance starts
 dropping
 
 -- Shish
 

The problem comes from the fact that I can't really limit the connection speed 
in a process-based way. 

Basically, when I try to run x threads simultaneously the hdd will pull the 
speed of the entire process down and you have basically no way of telling which 
SCM is faster. 

They would probably all finish at once, or close to that, because they're 
limited by the speed of the device. 

Now I'd love to be able to run multiple threads simultaneously with tmpfs but 
this is a big repository and I haven't got the RAM to duplicate it that much.

This benchmark is, well, a benchmark, so a big ball of salt should be carried 
around.

But I tend to believe that at least in terms of CPU, the load on the server is 
equivalent if you have one client churning away at 4MB/s or a lot of smaller 
ones doing the same thing.

It's really the memory that is affected but I understood this wasn't really the 
issue.

The script is almost done, all I have to setup now is the git repository and 
I'm done.

I have a problem because I didn't get all the cvs (just e17) and I don't have 
the history information anymore (you can't keep it unless you use a mechanism 
like rsync). 

I hope this isn't an issue but I will post the script along with the results 
and I encourage anyone with enough time on their hands to run the test on their 
own machines/network.

Cheers, 
Eugen.

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread Shish

 I have a problem because I didn't get all the cvs (just e17) and I don't
 have the history information anymore (you can't keep it unless you use
 a mechanism like rsync). 

It was mentioned earlier that the large amount of history information
was SVN's bottleneck when you check out a fresh copy; I imagine it
would be a burden for CVS too -- hence why I was asking for some way of
downloading the entire repository, history included~

-- Shish

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Tuesday, 15 August 2006, at 19:01:54 (+1000),
David Seikel wrote:

 Your anti-SVN message is starting to sound like it's coming from
 someone that hasn't actually run a SVN server recently.

I admin 2 and am a developer on a third.  But by all means, please
feel free to continue assuming I must not know what I'm talking about
because my opinion differs with yours.  It's much easier to write me
off than to actually consider what I have to say.

Like the guy who tried to explain to me what tagging is, why a copy
really is a tag, and how to use svn switch as though I were a
cluebie.  Very cute.

 Tagging and branching, when was the last time either occurred to E?

July 17th or so...at least that's the most recent a cursory search
found.  Why do you ask?




On Tuesday, 15 August 2006, at 16:55:50 (+0100),
Shish wrote:

 I was just about to say the same thing; the only thing I lack is a
 suitably huge CVS repository to start with -- is there any way for
 me to make a local mirror of E's whole repository?

Rsync access is provided to the complete anoncvs repository.

rsync anoncvs.enlightenment.org::anoncvs/e/

Includes revision history and everything.

Michael

-- 
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  of the most fundamental problems in C, and its most important
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread David Seikel

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:57:42 -0400 Michael Jennings [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 But by all means, please feel free to continue assuming I must not
 know what I'm talking about because my opinion differs with yours.
 It's much easier to write me off than to actually consider what I
 have to say.

I'm not assuming anything, I am responding to what you are actually
saying.  It's not a matter of opinion, you have stated things as fact
that are not true.  Others have corrected what you have been saying.


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Wednesday, 16 August 2006, at 04:09:54 (+1000),
David Seikel wrote:

 I'm not assuming anything, I am responding to what you are actually
 saying.

That was the first time you'd actually responded to *me*, and the only
other response you made indirectly to me was about the backend.  I'll
refer you to previous e-mails as to why the filesystem backend has
significant performance issues (re: deltas) which make it
counter-productive toward the performance goal.

 It's not a matter of opinion, you have stated things as fact that
 are not true.

Name one thing.

It's true that SVN is almost always used with DAV and Apache.  Sure,
there are exceptions here and there, but they are the minority.

The BDB backend is THE choice for performance, particularly with
anonymous access.  I haven't heard anyone contradict that.

SVN does not support tagging and branching.  It supports copying,
which creates a copy-on-write replica of part of the repository in
another location in the repository.  While this can perform the same
functions as tagging and branching, it is NOT the same thing.  That's
not an opinion; that is fact.  Tagging is creating a label on a
particular tree at a particular point, not creating a copy of the tree
at that point.  Branching is forking a tree at a particular point.
Copying is closer to branching than tagging, but it's still not the
same.  The fundamental distinction is that tagging and branching
happen *to* a tree; copying is necessarily *outside* the tree.  I'm
sorry if you can't see that, but I (and many other developers) can and
have run into the problems it creates.

 Others have corrected what you have been saying.

Whatever you say.

We're talking about performance here, and I don't see further
discussion of Subversion's capabilities (or lacks thereof) are
furthering that goal.

Michael

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

Hi,

I've spent a lot of time on this, but the results are ... shall we say ... 
interesting. Before proceeding I have to remind you, again that I only used e17 
without the version info, so you will probably want to try this out for 
yourself.

The script I wrote checked the average time for a checkout. I found that 
checkouts from the git server take a pheonmenally long time and I was too tired 
to wait for it (somewhere along the lines of 3-5 minutes, not sure really). 

That makes me think I may have not set it up. If there's anything I should have 
done, or more info you would like, include it here.

I've also found that git offers another very interesting thing. Rsync as a 
protocol for its client (similar to the way it uses http, there's no need for 
any extra modules or configuration, you just copy the tree somewhere and it 
works.

I also kept an eye on the CPU and memory load on the server. So here's what I 
found.

CVS: 
- Average checkout time: 41.843s
- CPU used: Constantly around 70% (something like 60-80%
- MEM used: 2-3%

SVN (svnserve):
- Average checkout time: 27.921s
- CPU used: 50-90%
- Mem used: 2%

SVN (http):
- Average checkout time: 61.239s
- CPU used: 70-90%
- Mem used: 10-12% *

Git/HTTP:
- Average checkout time: 98.962s
- CPU used:  4%
- Mem used: 10-12 *

* Somehow I think Apache caches a lot of the stuff out because the memory gets 
allocated and remains there after the fun is over.

So this looks very weird. And at the end of the day it doesn't really prove too 
much. SVN and Git (particularly Git) are really gentle on the server's 
resources at the expense of higher download times.

But this is once again, a single connection, in a pedal-to-the-metal attempt to 
get the repository as quickly as possible. I have not optimized anything in 
here, but feel free to do it yourselves.

The script is written in Ruby, just make sure to change the constants for the 
commands at the top of the file. I eventually ran in 20 times because 100 
seemed like way too much.

Hope you guys can use the data, or at least the script.

Cheers,
Eugen.


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Tuesday, 15 August 2006, at 22:12:47 (+0300),
Eugen Minciu wrote:

 CVS: 
 - Average checkout time: 41.843s
 - CPU used: Constantly around 70% (something like 60-80%
 - MEM used: 2-3%
 
 SVN (svnserve):
 - Average checkout time: 27.921s
 - CPU used: 50-90%
 - Mem used: 2%
 
 SVN (http):
 - Average checkout time: 61.239s
 - CPU used: 70-90%
 - Mem used: 10-12% *
 
 Git/HTTP:
 - Average checkout time: 98.962s
 - CPU used:  4%
 - Mem used: 10-12 *

Finally!  Some useful data.

 So this looks very weird. And at the end of the day it doesn't
 really prove too much. SVN and Git (particularly Git) are really
 gentle on the server's resources at the expense of higher download
 times.

I agree regarding git, but not SVN.  60-80% averages out to around
70%, and so does 50-90%.  So it's not really any better on resources
than CVS, and SVN+HTTP is significantly worse (which is as I predicted
and expected).

Was this with the BDB or FS backend?

Can you try multiple invocations of the script from the same host?
Like say 20 or 30 simultaneous checkouts?

I'd also be interested in comparisons of incremental checkouts.  As I
understand it, Git trees are complete repositories, not just
checkouts.  So a checkout-to-checkout comparison is unfair as Git is
downloading a crapload more data (history and such).

Thanks!
Michael

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread Nathan Ingersoll

On 8/15/06, Michael Jennings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I'd also be interested in comparisons of incremental checkouts.  As I
 understand it, Git trees are complete repositories, not just
 checkouts.  So a checkout-to-checkout comparison is unfair as Git is
 downloading a crapload more data (history and such).

 Thanks!
 Michael

Do we have any current statistics about the load on a CVS mirror?
Might be easier to find more mirrors if we can give them some idea
what sort of bandwidth, disk use and CPU load they can expect.

Thanks,
Nathan

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread Eric Sandall

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Eugen Minciu wrote:
snip
 Now I know this is probably not going to sound right but how about a git 
 repository?.
snip

You may be interested in reading our[0] thread[1] about our search for
an SCM, with us deciding, in the end, on git. Mainly git is compared
against Perforce, but it should be applicable here.

A little information about our repository[2] for comparison: 60,000 code
commits with a 95MB repository averaging 50 commits per day

- -sandalle

[0] http://www.sourcemage.org/
[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.sourcemage.discuss/2423
  Shows use cases, timing, and space requirements.
[2] Source: http://lwn.net/Articles/145233/ dated August 2, 2005

- --
Eric Sandall |  Source Mage GNU/Linux Developer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  |  http://www.sourcemage.org/
http://eric.sandall.us/  |  SysAdmin @ Shock Physics @ WSU
http://counter.li.org/  #196285  |  http://www.shock.wsu.edu/
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFE4j9aHXt9dKjv3WERAg86AJ9f7qcgxx36SENy3/qsbsxiOjnMZwCfcapl
ZrudiTytfhXz9uLZU97dO4c=
=9Q20
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Tuesday, 15 August 2006, at 14:31:53 (-0700),
Inc wrote:

 well, I've done a bit of a research on SVN vs. CVS.

Research isn't what we need.  Performance comparison data is.

 The general census is that SVN was created to improve and replace
 CVS.

Yes, we know that.  Whether it actually achieved that goal or not is a
matter of opinion.

 I have heard its kinder to network resources and cpu usage and what
 not. The only thing is that it needs more disk space.

As they'd say in court, hearsay is not admissible as evidence. :-)

 at, that shouldn't matter. Also, yes this is a slightly stupid
 reason to use SVN, but I have enjoyed using SVN with trac for the
 web based source browser... It provides a great wiki / landmarks and
 what not. I enjoy it.

Personally I think Trac is a turd.  Their wiki syntax is completely
non-standard, their ticket system is underpowered, and their concept
of milestones is shaky at best.  I do agree that their source
browser is pretty nice, but I've seen better.  (Doxygen comes to
mind.)  But that's not the point, so I won't say any more on Trac.

Is your mirror offer still open?  Have you gotten one set up?

Michael

-- 
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n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/   Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org)
---
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread Inc

well, thats what this is KainX. I have pretty much secured a donated box. I have also been working with raster to find the right box for us to buy. the place that I was going to have host the mirror said that its time for us to go get our own box, so I let raster know that. I'll update you more on the specs of the donated server and the price of the other as soon as my contacts get back to me
I've been working to get boxes donated... I've contacted a few places but no other luck besides the one box so far.-- --Inc
www.inc-omplete.orgwww.inc-corporate.org

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

Well I went outside for a while and it did me good. I have a new ideea for 
testing out the scm servers. Yay ;)

Instead of trying to actually save the items on my hard disk I'll try to 
redirect them to /dev/null. I allready saw how I can do this with cvs and I 
hope I'll find a way to do it with both svn and git.

So I'll be modifying the script, I'll have it create around 500 threads so that 
each thread will receive about 10K/s. I guess that should be a pretty acurate 
description of how much load a large system takes upon itself.

Cheers,
Eugen.

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread Kim Woelders


It seems to me that our SCM system feature requirements are extremely
limited. We hardly ever tag or branch, let alone do merging between
branches or anything resembling changeset management.

I think CVS amply provides the features we need. It's simple and robust.
It's far from perfect, but as Michael says - It's the devil we know.

I don't believe changing SCM will make any significant difference to the 
problems that we appear to have, except possibly on a very short term. 
Even in the unlikely case that some SCM system is twice(four/ten/... 
times) as fast as CVS the problem we have will resurface if/when the 
user base grows accordingly.

Unless there happens to be an SCM system that is just incredibly more 
efficient than CVS I also think that we would make a change for the 
wrong reason. Changing SCM system should IMO be done only if we 
want/need particular features not available in CVS.

In the unfortunate case that it is concluded that we want to switch away 
from CVS I hope it will be to git. Not because I know it from personal 
experience, but simply because it is used by linux and xorg, which are 
two projects I respect.

/Kim


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Tuesday, 15 August 2006, at 15:04:06 (-0700),
Inc wrote:

 well, thats what this is KainX. I have pretty much secured a donated
 box. I have also been working with raster to find the right box for
 us to buy. the place that I was going to have host the mirror said
 that its time for us to go get our own box, so I let raster know
 that. I'll update you more on the specs of the donated server and
 the price of the other as soon as my contacts get back to me
 I've been working to get boxes donated... I've contacted a few
 places but no other luck besides the one box so far.

It seems to me that our best bet would be to get the donated box
online and start dividing the load between the two anoncvs boxes.  We
may not need a 2nd box.



On Wednesday, 16 August 2006, at 00:08:18 (+0200),
Kim Woelders wrote:

 It seems to me that our SCM system feature requirements are
 extremely limited. We hardly ever tag or branch, let alone do
 merging between branches or anything resembling changeset
 management.

I know you tag quite a bit, and I personally maintain at least 2
branches at any one time.

 Unless there happens to be an SCM system that is just incredibly
 more efficient than CVS I also think that we would make a change for
 the wrong reason. Changing SCM system should IMO be done only if we
 want/need particular features not available in CVS.

Hear hear!

Michael

-- 
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---
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread Inc

So, if anyone has any connections now would be the time to mention it. these are the specs as we are thinking so far.cpu: dual core (amd (opteron) or intel (xeon)) (in my opinion, amd is a better chip and cheaper in some aspects. you can flame me on this one)
ram: 3-4gb of quality ram..hd: 160gb x2 some type of raid...other stuff doesn't matter a tonIf anyone has any suggestions or anything... please mention it. These were the specs as I had discussed with a few e developers. Also price quotes would be good
On 8/15/06, Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:well, I've done a bit of a research on SVN vs. CVS. The general census is that SVN was created to improve and replace CVS. I have heard its kinder to network resources and cpu usage and what not. The only thing is that it needs more disk space. Which honestly with the servers that we are looking at, that shouldn't matter. Also, yes this is a slightly stupid reason to use SVN, but I have enjoyed using SVN with trac for the web based
source browser... It provides a great wiki / landmarks and what not. I enjoy it. Anyways thats just my take on the SVN vs. CVS-- --Inc

www.inc-omplete.org
www.inc-corporate.org

-- --Inc

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread Kevin Brosius

Kim Woelders wrote:
 
 
 
 It seems to me that our SCM system feature requirements are extremely
 limited. We hardly ever tag or branch, let alone do merging between
 branches or anything resembling changeset management.
 
 I think CVS amply provides the features we need. It's simple and robust.
 It's far from perfect, but as Michael says - It's the devil we know.
 
 I don't believe changing SCM will make any significant difference to the
 problems that we appear to have, except possibly on a very short term.
 Even in the unlikely case that some SCM system is twice(four/ten/...
 times) as fast as CVS the problem we have will resurface if/when the
 user base grows accordingly.
 
 Unless there happens to be an SCM system that is just incredibly more
 efficient than CVS I also think that we would make a change for the
 wrong reason. Changing SCM system should IMO be done only if we
 want/need particular features not available in CVS.
 
 In the unfortunate case that it is concluded that we want to switch away
 from CVS I hope it will be to git. Not because I know it from personal
 experience, but simply because it is used by linux and xorg, which are
 two projects I respect.
 
 /Kim

Well said Kim.

I agree completely.  I'd like to see a multi-connection test of cvs vs
svn, but I also won't promise to set it up myself. :)  It was nice of
raster to open this debate, but we have running servers with cvs (and
webvc) and should really have a compelling reason to move.  As you can
see, I'm not much of a fan of change for change's sake. ;)

-- 
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:07:13 +0200 Tilman Sauerbeck [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 Eugen Minciu [2006-08-14 15:29]:
  Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
   It has come to my attention that yet again we are killing systems.
  
   yes - we are becoming a burden on yet more cvs servers. we are monsters! :
   (
  
   anyway - we have been living on caosity's cvs for a while now - but we are
   killing it (sorry kainx!)
  
   so its time to finally bite the bullet and dredge up the issue of us
   needing servers again.
  
   here is what i think we need:
  
   1. devel cvs server + future web server (for downloads too of official
   tarballs etc.)
   2. an anonymous cvs server and possibly second download mirror.
  
   so 2 systems really.
  
   i hear that svn is significantly less load for anonymous access - even
   developer - who has experience with this server-side? can you confirm or
   deny? i would consider a possible move to svn if we can keep our history
   from cvs.
  
   so - let the flames begin.
  
 
  Now I know this is probably not going to sound right but how about a git 
  repository?.
 
 git kicks Subversion's ass. At first, the decentralized nature of git
 might feel weird, but you'll get used to it, and love it (I've been
 using git since the day when Bitkeeper ended it's free-as-in-beer
 license thing, I think it was 2005-07-01).
 
 Disk space usage on the developer's box is considerably worse than CVS
 of course. The read-only git daemon (the one you'd use for
 anongit.e.org) is light on ressources I believe. Developer access would
 be done via ssh.
 
 cogito isn't needed for a sane git experience any more (it was, in the
 early days).

i think i should check git. i know svn enough to know its a viable move from
cvs - but i know very little of git - but from the comments - it seems good
(these days) - though much more radical than  move to svn :)

 Regards,
 Tilman
 
 -- 
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 Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 01:07:12 +0300 Eugen Minciu [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 Well I went outside for a while and it did me good. I have a new ideea for
 testing out the scm servers. Yay ;)
 
 Instead of trying to actually save the items on my hard disk I'll try to
 redirect them to /dev/null. I allready saw how I can do this with cvs and I
 hope I'll find a way to do it with both svn and git.
 
 So I'll be modifying the script, I'll have it create around 500 threads so
 that each thread will receive about 10K/s. I guess that should be a pretty
 acurate description of how much load a large system takes upon itself.

actually - i think we need to know how this works WITH data on disk - why? some
scm's may invoke much more disk IO than others and thus bottleneck at the disk
earlier than others. we need to know. unless you mean save on the client side -
then thats fine. but its server-side we really care about here - remember :)

word seems to have it that git is da shitsnizzle when it comes to performance
- but i am going to want to see the numbers. how many clients can connect and
checkout and/or update and how long does it take vs. the load on the server etc.

 Cheers,
 Eugen.
 
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:58:42 -0400 Michael Jennings [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 On Wednesday, 16 August 2006, at 04:09:54 (+1000),
 David Seikel wrote:
 
  I'm not assuming anything, I am responding to what you are actually
  saying.
 
 That was the first time you'd actually responded to *me*, and the only
 other response you made indirectly to me was about the backend.  I'll
 refer you to previous e-mails as to why the filesystem backend has
 significant performance issues (re: deltas) which make it
 counter-productive toward the performance goal.
 
  It's not a matter of opinion, you have stated things as fact that
  are not true.
 
 Name one thing.
 
 It's true that SVN is almost always used with DAV and Apache.  Sure,
 there are exceptions here and there, but they are the minority.
 
 The BDB backend is THE choice for performance, particularly with
 anonymous access.  I haven't heard anyone contradict that.
 
 SVN does not support tagging and branching.  It supports copying,
 which creates a copy-on-write replica of part of the repository in
 another location in the repository.  While this can perform the same
 functions as tagging and branching, it is NOT the same thing.  That's
 not an opinion; that is fact.  Tagging is creating a label on a
 particular tree at a particular point, not creating a copy of the tree
 at that point.  Branching is forking a tree at a particular point.
 Copying is closer to branching than tagging, but it's still not the
 same.  The fundamental distinction is that tagging and branching
 happen *to* a tree; copying is necessarily *outside* the tree.  I'm
 sorry if you can't see that, but I (and many other developers) can and
 have run into the problems it creates.

i'm  on the  much of a muchness as to the copy vs. tag/branch thing here -
others may like to fine-grain use each and all - but i personally am quite
happy with a copy (on write) :)

NB - i didn't mean to make this be a lets argue for the most powerful scms on
the planet and if it does X or not - i know i am definitely not after more
features - i want to see if we can make anon cvs scale better on 1 box
before having to move to anoncvs mirror farms.

i just heard that svn is lighter on a system for anonymous access and i
wanted to find out if it is true - and if so - by how much (if it is by 10% -
forget it - but if you can server 3 or 5 or 10 times as many users given the
same  data and resources before you run out... then i see at least one viable
alternative to be CONSIDERED) :)

so basically - what i am saying is... lets keep this on topic - your original
comments were definitely read by me and noted. but now we have eugen going to
do some actual benchmarks and that is going to excite me :)

  Others have corrected what you have been saying.
 
 Whatever you say.
 
 We're talking about performance here, and I don't see further
 discussion of Subversion's capabilities (or lacks thereof) are
 furthering that goal.

EXACTLY! :) on topic :)

 Michael
 
 -- 
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:55:50 +0100 Shish [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 I was just about to say the same thing; the only thing I lack is a
 suitably huge CVS repository to start with -- is there any way for me
 to make a local mirror of E's whole repository? Google fails me the
 specific procedure...
 
 
  tmpfs,
 
 In real life disks will be involved, it'd probably be good to take
 them into account. (I'd recommend doing both, to see what effect the
 disks have)
 
 
  I'll grab it 100 times with my laptop
 
 I was thinking a more appropriate benchmark would be to see how many
 parallel checkouts can be done at once before performance starts
 dropping

exactly- and then how does it drop. and what is the load on the server?

 -- Shish
 
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:10:02 +1000 David Seikel [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:55:50 +0100 Shish [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  I was just about to say the same thing; the only thing I lack is a
  suitably huge CVS repository to start with -- is there any way for me
  to make a local mirror of E's whole repository? Google fails me the
  specific procedure...
  
  
   tmpfs,
  
  In real life disks will be involved, it'd probably be good to take
  them into account. (I'd recommend doing both, to see what effect the
  disks have)
  
  
   I'll grab it 100 times with my laptop
  
  I was thinking a more appropriate benchmark would be to see how many
  parallel checkouts can be done at once before performance starts
  dropping
 
 Don't forget the most crucial of benchmarks - how long will it take
 raster to rsync his local working copy?

hahahahahahahahha! :) a lot longer i imagine - but as i said - if this improves
anon access for everyone... it's good.


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 00:08:18 +0200 Kim Woelders [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 
 It seems to me that our SCM system feature requirements are extremely
 limited. We hardly ever tag or branch, let alone do merging between
 branches or anything resembling changeset management.
 
 I think CVS amply provides the features we need. It's simple and robust.
 It's far from perfect, but as Michael says - It's the devil we know.
 
 I don't believe changing SCM will make any significant difference to the 
 problems that we appear to have, except possibly on a very short term. 
 Even in the unlikely case that some SCM system is twice(four/ten/... 
 times) as fast as CVS the problem we have will resurface if/when the 
 user base grows accordingly.
 
 Unless there happens to be an SCM system that is just incredibly more 
 efficient than CVS I also think that we would make a change for the 
 wrong reason. Changing SCM system should IMO be done only if we 
 want/need particular features not available in CVS.
 
 In the unfortunate case that it is concluded that we want to switch away 
 from CVS I hope it will be to git. Not because I know it from personal 
 experience, but simply because it is used by linux and xorg, which are 
 two projects I respect.

i agree with everything you said - we need very few features - we need history
management so we can see who did what to what and when - that is enough to be
able to roll back. i am looking at git, but i would only move if it really is
an order of magnitude faster (and i dont mean by download times but by how many
users can a single server handle before it becomes useless).

i had been hoping to get benchmarks - and - we have some! yay! i do agree they
need to test what happens if you get 10 or 20 clients at once using it.

svn is also an option - but so far it deosn't seem to really be far ahead
enough of cvs to warrant much further looking :(

of course we could consider much more exotic solutions...

insead of anon cvs we could provide server-side regular make dist tarballs
and go back to a download-only distriubtion mehcanism.

anonymous users really have little use for cvs beyond limiting download sizes
of updates. what alternative options do we have?

raw tarballs of cvs module checkouts generated by servers - make dist tarballs
of particular sub-projects - making a cvs checkout file tree available over
http, ftp or rsync?

we can look at this instead...

 /Kim
 
 
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:11:57 +0300 Eugen Minciu [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:55:50 +0100
 Shish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  In real life disks will be involved, it'd probably be good to take
  them into account. (I'd recommend doing both, to see what effect the
   I'll grab it 100 times with my laptop
  ... 
  I was thinking a more appropriate benchmark would be to see how many
  parallel checkouts can be done at once before performance starts
  dropping
  
  -- Shish
  
 
 The problem comes from the fact that I can't really limit the connection
 speed in a process-based way. 
 
 Basically, when I try to run x threads simultaneously the hdd will pull the
 speed of the entire process down and you have basically no way of telling
 which SCM is faster. 

in a real-life scm this will happen too. some scm's will hit disk harder than
others - this is a crucial measurement :)

 They would probably all finish at once, or close to that, because they're
 limited by the speed of the device. 
 
 Now I'd love to be able to run multiple threads simultaneously with tmpfs but
 this is a big repository and I haven't got the RAM to duplicate it that much.
 
 This benchmark is, well, a benchmark, so a big ball of salt should be carried
 around.
 
 But I tend to believe that at least in terms of CPU, the load on the server
 is equivalent if you have one client churning away at 4MB/s or a lot of
 smaller ones doing the same thing.

nb - when i said load - i meant the whole kit  kaboodle. ie cpu, memory
footprint, context switch overhead, IO overhead, etc.

an scm that accesses only 100mb of disk data will only need 100mb of ram cache
to remain fast. an scm that accesses 1000mb of unique disk data will eat up
much more cache space and thus degrade performance faster as repositories get
bigger. if it needs more malloc()ed ram to run - then that is less ram for
cache - etc. etc.

we need to know the overall performance as it would be on a long-running live
system (ie data is already loaded and cached after some initial
checkouts/updates) and it is humming along and now may get N clients wanting to
checkout and/or update. yes your network will be a limiting factor if you can
push 100mbit of traffic without a problem.

now if you can - try slowing down the server. if you can use speedstepping or
cpu throttling to artificially make it a slower system - use hdparm if you can
to slow the disk down. boot with a mem=X option to limit ram (and try it with
different levels). then Relatively the network will seem to get faster. this
of course is if it can handle pushing data at 100mbit without problems to many
clients and the network is our limiter... :)

 It's really the memory that is affected but I understood this wasn't really
 the issue.
 
 The script is almost done, all I have to setup now is the git repository and
 I'm done.
 
 I have a problem because I didn't get all the cvs (just e17) and I don't have
 the history information anymore (you can't keep it unless you use a mechanism
 like rsync). 
 
 I hope this isn't an issue but I will post the script along with the results
 and I encourage anyone with enough time on their hands to run the test on
 their own machines/network.
 
 Cheers, 
 Eugen.
 
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-15 Thread Kevin Brosius

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 
 
 On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:34:57 -0400 Kevin Brosius [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 
  Kim Woelders wrote:
  
  
  
   It seems to me that our SCM system feature requirements are extremely
   limited. We hardly ever tag or branch, let alone do merging between
   branches or anything resembling changeset management.
  
   I think CVS amply provides the features we need. It's simple and robust.
   It's far from perfect, but as Michael says - It's the devil we know.
  
   I don't believe changing SCM will make any significant difference to the
   problems that we appear to have, except possibly on a very short term.
   Even in the unlikely case that some SCM system is twice(four/ten/...
   times) as fast as CVS the problem we have will resurface if/when the
   user base grows accordingly.
  
   Unless there happens to be an SCM system that is just incredibly more
   efficient than CVS I also think that we would make a change for the
   wrong reason. Changing SCM system should IMO be done only if we
   want/need particular features not available in CVS.
  
   In the unfortunate case that it is concluded that we want to switch away
   from CVS I hope it will be to git. Not because I know it from personal
   experience, but simply because it is used by linux and xorg, which are
   two projects I respect.
  
   /Kim
 
  Well said Kim.
 
  I agree completely.  I'd like to see a multi-connection test of cvs vs
  svn, but I also won't promise to set it up myself. :)  It was nice of
  raster to open this debate, but we have running servers with cvs (and
  webvc) and should really have a compelling reason to move.  As you can
  see, I'm not much of a fan of change for change's sake. ;)
 
 the compelling reason is that (apparently) anoncvs is straining under its load
 (again) and this happened so quickly that i am putting up a debate for
 alternate solutions - willing to discuss really anything :)

Hmmm. I'm not sure I see the logic that way.  We moved off sf to get the
ability to do rsync backup of cvs (one of the reasons, along with some
intermittent performance of dev and anon cvs.)  We now have solid dev
cvs performance, rsync access, and better anon access (IMO.)

Are you against requesting offers of open anon mirrors?  With the rsync
access, that seems easy, but of you want a anon cvs farm that has full
status monitoring, then you're stepping the complexity up a bit.

I guess I don't buy the 'straining under the load and happening quickly'
as a compelling reason. ;)  It's a different situation.

-- 
Kevin

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:07:16 +0900
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 actually - i think we need to know how this works WITH data on disk - why? 
 some
 scm's may invoke much more disk IO than others and thus bottleneck at the disk
 earlier than others. we need to know. unless you mean save on the client side 
 -
 then thats fine. but its server-side we really care about here - remember :)
Well ... it was client side, but it didn't work as I couldn't find a way to 
send the files to the bit bucket with either svn or git.

 word seems to have it that git is da shitsnizzle when it comes to 
 performance
 - but i am going to want to see the numbers. how many clients can connect and
 checkout and/or update and how long does it take vs. the load on the server 
 etc.

Well I oficially declare my numbers crap. I hold my laptop responsible for this 
mess and I don't really trust a single number here. And I'll explain why in a 
minute.

Here are the numbers, but as I said, I really don't think they should be 
considered usefull. Consider this to be FUD.

CVS: 
- CPU Load: Max
- Mem Load: 45%
- Checkout Time: 296.374s

SVN:
- CPU Load: 20% ( It was 20% in the last test as well I believe, all processes 
seem to share the same CPU usage.)
- Mem Load: 40%
- Checkout Time: 658.576

SVN/HTTP:
- CPU Load: 70-90%
- Mem Load: 60%
- Checkout Time: 874.618

GIT (git protocol):
- CPU Load: Max
- Mem Load: 10-15%
- Checkout Time: 2345.243

GIT (http):
- CPU Load:  5%
- Mem Load: 10-12%
- Checkout Time: A lot, from what I could see, it was cloning at a very low 
rate.

I used actual disk access on both the client and the server, 
Apache2-mpm-worker, SVN with FSFS and that's about it. A spec of machines would 
be missing the point. The point is they aren't any good for these kinds of 
benchmarks.

It looks really suspicious to me that times seem to increase linearly among the 
tested SCMs, even though this wasn't the case in the first test. 

Also, I often found network traffic dropping to 0 because the laptop's HDD 
couldn't take the heat anymore.

Also, the version of the script I tested with did not wait after one SCM 
finished and moved directly to the next one. I don't think that was a good idea.

Now, Git with http was excellent in terms of CPU  Memory usage but I'm not 
really sure why it wouldn't go past 1.5MB/s (ever). It would have probably 
taken me an hour or so, and that's on a LAN which is pretty much unacceptable.

But here's the script. Feel free to change the number of threads at the top of 
the script (it's currently at 20) but please make note that you need about 
180MBx number of threads available.

Change the lines near the top to specify how the checkout commands should be 
run in your environment. If you want to add another test but lack the Ruby 
know-how just tell me what you need and I'll patch it up for you.

Finally make a new directory, copy the script there and execute 'ruby 
scm_benchmark.rb'. And that's it.

So ultimately I urge someone with more patience and two solid machines to give 
my little test a spin. Please don't make any decision based on my data. Pretty 
please! And Carsten, if this doesn't turn you on, I'm sorry ;)

Cheers,
Eugen.

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

Now I wonder what that 'Attatch' button does? ...
Sorry bout that.

Eugen.


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread Stephan Wezel

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Am Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:03:07 -0400
schrieb Michael Jennings [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 On Monday, 14 August 2006, at 12:08:06 (+0900),
 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 
  anyway - we have been living on caosity's cvs for a while now - but
  we are killing it (sorry kainx!)
 
  so its time to finally bite the bullet and dredge up the issue of us
  needing servers again.
 
 What we really need is anoncvs mirrors.  We need systems that we can
 point anoncvs.enlightenment.org to.  A nice round-robin DNS should
 solve the load problem quite nicely.
 
  here is what i think we need:
  
  1. devel cvs server + future web server (for downloads too of official
  tarballs etc.)
  2. an anonymous cvs server and possibly second download mirror.
  
  so 2 systems really.
 
 The developer CVS server is doing acceptably, is it not?
 
 We are working on obtaining another server for the E project to have
 as its very own.  Hopefully that will pan out.
 
  i hear that svn is significantly less load for anonymous access -
  even developer - who has experience with this server-side? can you
  confirm or deny?  i would consider a possible move to svn if we can
  keep our history from cvs.
 
 It's not true.  SVN requires a lot more overhead (including Apache
 with SVN and DAV modules), uses a BDB backend (you remember your love
 of BDB, right?), and requires DOUBLE the amount of disk space for a
 checkout.  Yes, I said double.  Furthermore, branching and tagging
 don't really exist for SVN (it uses copies which, while they may be
 zero overhead on the server, are murder on the checkout).  And last I
 checked, you could not keep your history.
That's not true that SVN needs lot more overhead. At least if you compile 
subversion from source you can disable unneeded features e.g. apache and 
java-bindings support.
On gentoo you can enable/disable following features when emerging subversion:
apache2, bash-completion,
berkdb, subversion has also a flat file db support(fsfs which is standard when 
creating a subversion repo)
java (afaik only bindings support)
nls
perl (afaik only bindings support)
python (afaik only bindings support)
zlib
emacs
nowebdav (no webdav support via the neon lib)
ruby (afaik only bindings support)

so you can strip down the requirements to the minimum if you want.
Apache + Webdav is only needed if you want the access to the repos via webdav.

there are now at least one cvs2svn conversion tool with which you can keep your 
history of cvs.

Stephan

 
 CVS is the devil we know.  There's really nothing we need it to do
 that it doesn't do.  I see no compelling reason to move.
 
 Michael
 


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread The Rasterman

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:20:09 +0200 Stephan Wezel [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Am Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:03:07 -0400
 schrieb Michael Jennings [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
  On Monday, 14 August 2006, at 12:08:06 (+0900),
  Carsten Haitzler wrote:
  
   anyway - we have been living on caosity's cvs for a while now - but
   we are killing it (sorry kainx!)
  
   so its time to finally bite the bullet and dredge up the issue of us
   needing servers again.
  
  What we really need is anoncvs mirrors.  We need systems that we can
  point anoncvs.enlightenment.org to.  A nice round-robin DNS should
  solve the load problem quite nicely.
  
   here is what i think we need:
   
   1. devel cvs server + future web server (for downloads too of official
   tarballs etc.)
   2. an anonymous cvs server and possibly second download mirror.
   
   so 2 systems really.
  
  The developer CVS server is doing acceptably, is it not?
  
  We are working on obtaining another server for the E project to have
  as its very own.  Hopefully that will pan out.
  
   i hear that svn is significantly less load for anonymous access -
   even developer - who has experience with this server-side? can you
   confirm or deny?  i would consider a possible move to svn if we can
   keep our history from cvs.
  
  It's not true.  SVN requires a lot more overhead (including Apache
  with SVN and DAV modules), uses a BDB backend (you remember your love
  of BDB, right?), and requires DOUBLE the amount of disk space for a
  checkout.  Yes, I said double.  Furthermore, branching and tagging
  don't really exist for SVN (it uses copies which, while they may be
  zero overhead on the server, are murder on the checkout).  And last I
  checked, you could not keep your history.
 That's not true that SVN needs lot more overhead. At least if you compile
 subversion from source you can disable unneeded features e.g. apache and
 java-bindings support. On gentoo you can enable/disable following features
 when emerging subversion: apache2, bash-completion, berkdb, subversion has
 also a flat file db support(fsfs which is standard when creating a subversion
 repo) java (afaik only bindings support) nls
 perl (afaik only bindings support)
 python (afaik only bindings support)
 zlib
 emacs
 nowebdav (no webdav support via the neon lib)
 ruby (afaik only bindings support)
 
 so you can strip down the requirements to the minimum if you want.
 Apache + Webdav is only needed if you want the access to the repos via webdav.
 
 there are now at least one cvs2svn conversion tool with which you can keep
 your history of cvs.

ok- but what about runtime performance? doe svn use 50% of the system load
(ram/cpu/whatever) compare to cvs? 20% 150%? 200%? what? a rough ballpark thing
is what i'd like to know from people with experience of going form cvs to svn
or svn to cvs - will it make our anon cvs serves handle more users with the
same src being shipped given the same resources? if more - about how much more?

 Stephan
 
  
  CVS is the devil we know.  There's really nothing we need it to do
  that it doesn't do.  I see no compelling reason to move.
  
  Michael
  
 
 
 - -- 
 Ein Ring, sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden,
 Ins Dunkel zu treiben und ewig zu binden
 Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn.
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 Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
 
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 sRNZIyRCbjk=
 =zbwF
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread Eugen Minciu

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 It has come to my attention that yet again we are killing systems.

 yes - we are becoming a burden on yet more cvs servers. we are monsters! :(

 anyway - we have been living on caosity's cvs for a while now - but we are
 killing it (sorry kainx!)

 so its time to finally bite the bullet and dredge up the issue of us needing
 servers again.

 here is what i think we need:

 1. devel cvs server + future web server (for downloads too of official
 tarballs etc.)
 2. an anonymous cvs server and possibly second download mirror.

 so 2 systems really.

 i hear that svn is significantly less load for anonymous access - even
 developer - who has experience with this server-side? can you confirm or deny?
 i would consider a possible move to svn if we can keep our history from cvs.

 so - let the flames begin.

   
Now I know this is probably not going to sound right but how about a git 
repository?.

I'll give you some information about in case you're not up to speed with 
it and/or what it can do. If you are then sorry for wasting your time.

It is a distributed revision control system but it has a whole bunch of 
very cool features. Here are a few of them, stolen from git's homepage:
- supports rapid and convenient branching and merging
- repositories can be easily accessed via the efficient Git protocol 
(optionally wrapped in ssh)
- they can also be accessed simply using HTTP - you can publish your 
repository anywhere without _any_ special webserver configuration 
required. (that should make it very easy to mirror).
- very fast and scales well even when working with large projects and 
long histories
- commonly an order of magnitude faster than most other revision control 
systems, and several orders of magnitude faster on some operations

You can find the said webpage on http://git.or.cz/
There's a section called Git for CVS users you might want to check out.

I've actually worked with if for a couple of small projects of mine. 
Anyway here are a few extra things to note.

Git in itself is rather complicated to use. It is designed to be quite 
low-level. However, there are programs like cogito, that work on top of 
the low-level git commands. Now I've used subversion for a couple of 
years, and I've used CVS for a very short time and if you've used either 
one of them, cogito is a snap.

There are conversion tools available, but again I haven't tested them 
just yet. But if you're interested I can give it a spin and tell you 
guys how everything goes.

Here's a page to check out CVS importing: 
http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/cvs-migration.html

There's a tool called gitweb, which is a web interface for Git 
repositories. For an example, you might want to try the kernel's git 
page: http://www.kernel.org/git/

I for one, think it would be pretty cool if enlightenment was to be 
developed using cogito. It allows for very quick branching/merging, it's 
very fast and quite easy to pick up as well. I haven't used it for 
anything massive though but you could always just set up a read-only 
repository and ask people to download from it. All you have to do is 
convert your CVS tree into a git tree and copy that on one of your 
webservers.

That's my (rather long) 2 cents anyway.

Cheers,
Eugen.

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread Sthithaprajna Garapaty

The reason I wanted to go the CVS way was so that we could avoid the
importing hell you generally go through when switching systems (both
on the server side and the client side).
On that side I found DCVS: http://www.elego-software-solutions.com/dcvs/

On the other hand, I've been staring at that git website and git
sounds a lot like SVN, so I'm all for it.

--Sthitha

On 8/14/06, Eugen Minciu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I dont know much about Git cogito, but if there's a distributed system
  that can directly work with CVS (as in sync to cvs each time rather
  than importing), we could set up anoncvs as distributed and leave
  dev-cvs as it is.

 I don't think you can do that with git. And I don't think it's better then 
 actually using git itself. If you haven't used git/cogito you could take a 
 few minutes and check out the links in my last email.

 I'll try to look for some articles/info about distributed development vs 
 centralized development later. Git/cogito is used by the Linux kernel (and 
 lately the Gnome project as well, I think). So it's proven to be reliable and 
 fast (it was initially created by Linus himself as a replacement for the 
 commerical BitKeeper).

 Cheers.



On 8/14/06, Sthithaprajna Garapaty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hey,
  I think that's a great idea for anoncvs.
  Instead of having one central server  that might get choked anyway,
  maybe we should try a distributed system so everyone can pitch in and
  give some bandwidth/cpu.
  I dont know much about Git cogito, but if there's a distributed system
  that can directly work with CVS (as in sync to cvs each time rather
  than importing), we could set up anoncvs as distributed and leave
  dev-cvs as it is.
 
  On the SVN debate, I dunno anything about performance, but I would
  love dev-cvs to go svn :) (And there are tools to get us there without
  losing history)
 
  --Sthitha
 

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread Tilman Sauerbeck

Eugen Minciu [2006-08-14 15:29]:
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
  It has come to my attention that yet again we are killing systems.
 
  yes - we are becoming a burden on yet more cvs servers. we are monsters! :(
 
  anyway - we have been living on caosity's cvs for a while now - but we are
  killing it (sorry kainx!)
 
  so its time to finally bite the bullet and dredge up the issue of us needing
  servers again.
 
  here is what i think we need:
 
  1. devel cvs server + future web server (for downloads too of official
  tarballs etc.)
  2. an anonymous cvs server and possibly second download mirror.
 
  so 2 systems really.
 
  i hear that svn is significantly less load for anonymous access - even
  developer - who has experience with this server-side? can you confirm or 
  deny?
  i would consider a possible move to svn if we can keep our history from cvs.
 
  so - let the flames begin.
 

 Now I know this is probably not going to sound right but how about a git 
 repository?.

git kicks Subversion's ass. At first, the decentralized nature of git
might feel weird, but you'll get used to it, and love it (I've been
using git since the day when Bitkeeper ended it's free-as-in-beer
license thing, I think it was 2005-07-01).

Disk space usage on the developer's box is considerably worse than CVS
of course. The read-only git daemon (the one you'd use for
anongit.e.org) is light on ressources I believe. Developer access would
be done via ssh.

cogito isn't needed for a sane git experience any more (it was, in the
early days).

Regards,
Tilman

-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread Shish

 It's not true.  SVN requires a lot more overhead (including Apache
 with SVN and DAV modules),

They aren't required, they just make things easier. You can use a
standalone svn daemon, or AFAIK have a client side client and server
side client who talk over SSH (similar to rsync's two-client mode?).
I've only ever used Apache + mod_svn myself though.

Even if you do go the apache + mod_svn route, since when was apache
known for being bloated and slow? (Sure it's slower than things like
lighttpd, but even with all the bloat turned on the apache overhead is
still tiny compared to the processor time spent getting actual work
done)


 uses a BDB backend (you remember your love of BDB, right?)

Since a few years ago, it's been able to use a filesystem based
database, which I've never had problems with (BDB kept me away from
SVN for a while too, since it kept giving me headaches...)


 and requires DOUBLE the amount of disk space for a
 checkout.  Yes, I said double.

Having a local copy of the unmodified source makes things like taking
diffs or reverting changes *much* faster, and zero load on the server.

Disk space shouldn't be much of an issue with today's drives; Raster's
point about running rsync on his local checkout will indeed use twice
the bandwidth if it's done the naive way, but I'm sure there are some
optimisations that could be done. (I'm interested in knowing why
someone would want to rsync their local copy anyway, rather than
checking into the server on one box and checking out elsewhere)


 Furthermore, branching and tagging
 don't really exist for SVN (it uses copies which, while they may be
 zero overhead on the server, are murder on the checkout).

I've found tagging much cleaner, and you don't need to check anything
out at all:

svn cp http://server/project/trunk http://server/project/tags/0.4.2

(if you want to retroactively tag an old version of the trunk, just
add -r revision number before the trunk URL). Practically zero
overhead on the server (all it stores in the copy is a reference to the
trunk filename and revision), and zero overhead on the client.

Branching I've only experimented with, but don't use regularly enough
to say whether it's better or worse than CVS's.


 And last I checked, you could not keep your history.

The cvs2svn script seems to have worked fine for other large, active
projects (mplayer, gaim, and inkscape are the ones in my src folder)


Unfortunately for the topic at hand, the only thing I can't say for
certain is SVN is better at dealing with server-killing loads caused
by vast numbers of anon checkouts. Using my otherwise unused 200MHz
test server, browsing the HTTP interface is as fast as browsing plain
text files, but I don't know if it'll stay that fast with thousands of
users at once...

-- Shish

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread David Seikel

Strangely enough, another large, old open source project I am involved
in is having exactly the same conversation.  One of them came up with
this -

http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/user:rednaxela:scmtable

It may be helpful.


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread Eugen Minciu

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:01:06 +1000
David Seikel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Strangely enough, another large, old open source project I am involved
 in is having exactly the same conversation.  One of them came up with
 this -
 
 http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/user:rednaxela:scmtable
 
 It may be helpful.
 

Git isn't there. Now I hope I understand all of the points in that table, and I 
also hope I understand git well enough, but here's a listing for git (based on 
my knowledge).

- Protocol: dedicated / ssh / http-based/ email (at least partially).
- Learning curve from CVS: medium (imho)
- Network based access: No, it uses smoke signals. Doh!
- Multiplatform: Yes.
- Access control lists: Yes, with SSH
- Read-only access to everyone: Yes
- Supported by Sourceforge  co.: Yes, with SSH (though I don't think it's that 
relevant here).
- Receive email notification upon a commit: Almost, you have to do a chmod +x 
on a script to enable it to be run. ( see 
http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/hooks.txt ) 
- Readily available/easily installable software: Yes
- Tracking of when merges are done: Yes
- Good branch handling: Yes
- Efficient use of resources: From what I can tell it's impressive, the git 
developers say it's around an order of magnitude faster, sometimes more. It was 
designed with a primary focus on efficiency so I tend to think it's pretty good.
- Global revisioning: Yes
- support for symbolic tagging within one repository: Yes
- Atomic checkins: Yes (I think)
- Maximum ability to do SCCS operations without access to repository: Yes (and 
it's a great thing to have imho)
- good binary file handling: From what I've read yes, I believe GZip 
compression is used on binary data.
- Ability to do local branches: Yes
- Rename support: Yes.
- Web view of repository: Yes

So this is _my_ knowledge of how git works. If it's wrong sorry for any 
confusions this may cause. Anyway, I'll stop zealoting for git from now on, I 
just think it's really cool. 

But even if you guys won't go with it, I would still suggest using Subversion 
which I believe to be better then CVS.

Cheers,
Eugen.

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread The Rasterman

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 23:51:19 +0100 Shish [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

  It's not true.  SVN requires a lot more overhead (including Apache
  with SVN and DAV modules),
 
 They aren't required, they just make things easier. You can use a
 standalone svn daemon, or AFAIK have a client side client and server
 side client who talk over SSH (similar to rsync's two-client mode?).
 I've only ever used Apache + mod_svn myself though.
 
 Even if you do go the apache + mod_svn route, since when was apache
 known for being bloated and slow? (Sure it's slower than things like
 lighttpd, but even with all the bloat turned on the apache overhead is
 still tiny compared to the processor time spent getting actual work
 done)
 
 
  uses a BDB backend (you remember your love of BDB, right?)
 
 Since a few years ago, it's been able to use a filesystem based
 database, which I've never had problems with (BDB kept me away from
 SVN for a while too, since it kept giving me headaches...)
 
 
  and requires DOUBLE the amount of disk space for a
  checkout.  Yes, I said double.
 
 Having a local copy of the unmodified source makes things like taking
 diffs or reverting changes *much* faster, and zero load on the server.

load on the sever here isnt important - u devs cause very little/no load - its
anon users that kill things. :) but yes - it is a good point... but. double the
files.

 Disk space shouldn't be much of an issue with today's drives; Raster's
 point about running rsync on his local checkout will indeed use twice
 the bandwidth if it's done the naive way, but I'm sure there are some
 optimisations that could be done. (I'm interested in knowing why
 someone would want to rsync their local copy anyway, rather than
 checking into the server on one box and checking out elsewhere)

ok- double the bandwidth and double the scan time. rsync has to scan a lot
more files and in fact the scan of my files takes more time than the sync. yes
- i disabled checksumming because that just makes it intolerable.

why rsync? do you have more than computer? how do you copy your email, code,
files, porn, music etc. to a new system? if it s laptop and doesnt life on
your network all the time for example? rsync.

i rsync msot of my dot-files and homedir between desktop, laptop, work etc.
etc. etc. - this way all my files, work, state, notes, wallpapers, config,
email, music, etc. etc. - follow me form one system to another - seamlessly
(well with a single rsync) and i am not tethered to a lan and nfs - i can just
continue where i left on on my laptop on a plane, train, in the airport, on a
park bench, at work, and then back home to my desktop, over to the couch in the
living room - whereever i go - onto whatever machine i may use, my digital
life follows me. i can just keep doing what i was doing. ESPECIALLY important
is that my source code follows me - thus my cvs checkouts. this acts also as a
backup mechanism as i also rsync to a central sever 2 or more times a day - and
a copy of my data exists on several systems - if i lose a disk - not a big
problem. i have several backups - several of them even offsite :)

if you don't have at least a desktop and a laptop and have never tried working
offline - you wont understand - but rsync is the ultimate tool for this kind of
semi connected/disconnected kind of independent working ability.

 
  Furthermore, branching and tagging
  don't really exist for SVN (it uses copies which, while they may be
  zero overhead on the server, are murder on the checkout).
 
 I've found tagging much cleaner, and you don't need to check anything
 out at all:
 
 svn cp http://server/project/trunk http://server/project/tags/0.4.2
 
 (if you want to retroactively tag an old version of the trunk, just
 add -r revision number before the trunk URL). Practically zero
 overhead on the server (all it stores in the copy is a reference to the
 trunk filename and revision), and zero overhead on the client.
 
 Branching I've only experimented with, but don't use regularly enough
 to say whether it's better or worse than CVS's.
 
 
  And last I checked, you could not keep your history.
 
 The cvs2svn script seems to have worked fine for other large, active
 projects (mplayer, gaim, and inkscape are the ones in my src folder)
 
 
 Unfortunately for the topic at hand, the only thing I can't say for
 certain is SVN is better at dealing with server-killing loads caused
 by vast numbers of anon checkouts. Using my otherwise unused 200MHz
 test server, browsing the HTTP interface is as fast as browsing plain
 text files, but I don't know if it'll stay that fast with thousands of
 users at once...
 
 -- Shish
 
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread The Rasterman

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:01:06 +1000 David Seikel [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 Strangely enough, another large, old open source project I am involved
 in is having exactly the same conversation.  One of them came up with
 this -
 
 http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/user:rednaxela:scmtable
 
 It may be helpful.

mercurial looks god there - but svn is the easiest learning curve :)


-- 
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The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
裸好多
Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本)

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread Landry, Marc-Andre

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:01:06 +1000 David Seikel [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 
 Strangely enough, another large, old open source project I am involved
 in is having exactly the same conversation.  One of them came up with
 this -

 http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/user:rednaxela:scmtable

 It may be helpful.
 
 mercurial looks god there - but svn is the easiest learning curve :)

I may be little off topic. But as a novice in sys admin. I found lot
more easier to config svn then cvs. I try to test BDB filesystem and
also FSFS and found no trouble dumping from BDB to FSFS, managing
concurrent branches against trunk and taging branches and trunk to a
given TAG so that you and up with several build possible out of
checkout. Cause of the little overhead I didn't try all those with CVS
so my comment may not help. For as little I have read, I can't even know
where all this going. Is there some people wanting to migrate to svn.

For such I may only say : why broking something that working? If you do
found something problematic, find the solution, and solution don't mean
replacement but neither discard it.

My 2 cent,
LMA1980

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread Justin Patrin

On 8/14/06, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:01:06 +1000 David Seikel [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

  Strangely enough, another large, old open source project I am involved
  in is having exactly the same conversation.  One of them came up with
  this -
 
  http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/user:rednaxela:scmtable
 
  It may be helpful.

 mercurial looks god there - but svn is the easiest learning curve :)


I feel compelled to mention monotone as I use it for a few projects. I
personally like it quite a bit but it's still being fairly heavily
changed (although they do a real good job of making the upgrade path
easy).

http://venge.net/monotone

It's also fully distributed, which may or may not be a good thing
depending on what you want. (Each user has their own copy of the
entire history, it is not possible to just have a checkout.)

-- 
Justin Patrin

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-14 Thread Michael Jennings

On Monday, 14 August 2006, at 13:42:19 (+0900),
Carsten Haitzler wrote:

 yeah - though that might be harder than we think. the other problem
 here is consistency - we want a user using the 1 server once they
 started as if anon servers don't update at the same time - they will
 have problems with consistency.

Not necessarily.  A nice lengthy TTL on the records (say, 12 hours?)
will make sure they get the same mirror, at least throughout any given
day.  The problems we'd face really wouldn't be any different from any
other set of mirrors.

 having a faster/lighter/easier access method (svn? who has something
 to say? i prefer the devil you know but since this problem keeps
 coming up... time to bit the bullet?)

What it's telling us is that any single server is going to have its
ass handed to it by E anoncvs users.  I don't think replacing one with
another is the solution, SCM system notwithstanding.

 this was kind of part of what i was getting to - to make sure that
 we dont tread on your feet any more - move to our own box - and yes
 - anoncvs mirrors will be good - but maybe using svn in the end will
 make this easier.  i am broaching the topic to start just this
 discussion. i am not set on a path at all - but if we are causing
 pain - we need to address it.

Honestly, it hasn't affected us really at all.  We're more concerned
about the users

 checkouts from svn are just ridiculous. agreed. but its the server
 side i am asking about. as i said - i HEARD it is easier on the
 server - i am after details from those having been there, done that.

I have not run an anon SVN server, so I can't speak to that point.  I
can only say that it makes no sense that a standalone, dedicated
server like cvs would have less overhead than Apache, which we all
know is a web server, a shared filesystem server, an embedded language
engine, a proxy server, an authentication and authorization system,
...need I go on?  :-)

 yeah - bdb - oh yay. lets break format all the time.. ;)

If you think BDB was bad, Subversion is just as bad.  Upgrading from
one version of svn-server to another can often involve a change of
repository format, in which case the ONLY migration path is the
following:

1.  Use the old version of the server to create a dump of the
repository.  You must remember to do this BEFORE upgrading, or
pray that you have a static copy around.  I speak from experience
when I say this gets nasty.  To say nothing of what happens when
the dump fails
2.  Upgrade SVN.
3.  Load the repository from the dump file, creating each revision
from scratch based on the file data.  This takes an amount of time
directly proportional to the number of revisions and the
complexity of each changeset.  Again, you just have to hope it
doesn't fail.

But that's a bit off-topic  I don't have actual data for you, but
I can't imagine how CVS would be harder on the server than SVN

 agreed - unless svn is less overhead. that is the question. an svn
 anon server serving 1000 users - and then an cvs anon server serving
 the same src and the same people - which one consumes less disk
 io/cpu/memory? thats what i want to know - and if it is less - is it
 significantly less? or just like 5% (not worth worrying about)

I was speaking to Inc the other night, and he (more or less) offered
an SVN mirror if we were interested.  I said we would be interested in
any mirror that could sync off the CVS server and help share some of
the burden, SVN included.  If he's still willing to follow through on
that, it might be a good opportunity to compare the two.



On Sunday, 13 August 2006, at 23:49:06 (-0500),
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 There are tools to move from cvs to
 svn. E.g. http://cvs2svn.tigris.org/ I've never used one, so I can't
 vouch for them, but it seems like it would be a fairly
 straightforward operation.

Seems and is are entirely different.  You'd think doing a
repository dump would be a fairly straightforward operation too, but
I've had that choke on me too.

 The main thing that SVN has that won me over is the ability to do
 diffs without hitting the server. I generally check diffs a LOT
 before checking in. With CVS this is a slow pita. I also find svn
 log more useful than cvs log. But that's probably just familiarity.

It's quite easy to check out a parallel tree or do an export and
generate local diffs from that.  With CVS, you have the option of
equipping yourself to do local diffs or using the server.  With SVN,
you have no choice at all.



On Monday, 14 August 2006, at 12:20:09 (+0200),
Stephan Wezel wrote:

 That's not true that SVN needs lot more overhead. At least if you
 compile subversion from source you can disable unneeded features

This is an interesting point.  Has anyone ever tried building a
version of CVS which could do anoncvs but nothing else?  No commits?
That might have an interesting impact on the overhead question.



On Monday, 14 August 2006, at 15:29:28 (+0300),

Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-13 Thread David Seikel

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:08:06 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 It has come to my attention that yet again we are killing systems.
 
 yes - we are becoming a burden on yet more cvs servers. we are
 monsters! :(
 
 anyway - we have been living on caosity's cvs for a while now - but
 we are killing it (sorry kainx!)
 
 so its time to finally bite the bullet and dredge up the issue of us
 needing servers again.
 
 here is what i think we need:
 
 1. devel cvs server + future web server (for downloads too of
 official tarballs etc.)
 2. an anonymous cvs server and possibly second download mirror.
 
 so 2 systems really.
 
 i hear that svn is significantly less load for anonymous access - even
 developer - who has experience with this server-side? can you confirm
 or deny? i would consider a possible move to svn if we can keep our
 history from cvs.
 
 so - let the flames begin.

I have only mild server side svn experience, not enough to warrant
comments.  All I can say is that I have a preference for svn, and as
far as I can tell, all those issues that people seem to have with it
have been addressed.  I know I have seen a page comparing cvs and svn,
and every single svn issue they raised was fixed in later versions.

Didn't we say at the outset that extra mirrors are a goal, and that we
should build an easy to setup mirror package of some sort?  How's that
going?

Is it time to seek donations for our own server?

You have mentioned recently that there are bounties for coding E, can
the same source of those funds donate some cvs server resources?


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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:59:58 +1000 David Seikel [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:08:06 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  It has come to my attention that yet again we are killing systems.
  
  yes - we are becoming a burden on yet more cvs servers. we are
  monsters! :(
  
  anyway - we have been living on caosity's cvs for a while now - but
  we are killing it (sorry kainx!)
  
  so its time to finally bite the bullet and dredge up the issue of us
  needing servers again.
  
  here is what i think we need:
  
  1. devel cvs server + future web server (for downloads too of
  official tarballs etc.)
  2. an anonymous cvs server and possibly second download mirror.
  
  so 2 systems really.
  
  i hear that svn is significantly less load for anonymous access - even
  developer - who has experience with this server-side? can you confirm
  or deny? i would consider a possible move to svn if we can keep our
  history from cvs.
  
  so - let the flames begin.
 
 I have only mild server side svn experience, not enough to warrant
 comments.  All I can say is that I have a preference for svn, and as
 far as I can tell, all those issues that people seem to have with it
 have been addressed.  I know I have seen a page comparing cvs and svn,
 and every single svn issue they raised was fixed in later versions.
 
 Didn't we say at the outset that extra mirrors are a goal, and that we
 should build an easy to setup mirror package of some sort?  How's that
 going?

yes - but a primary anon cvs that we personally manage woudl be best - we dont
have that atm. i think its time we stop burdeni0ng other peoples systems
though. maybe svn is also a good move?

 Is it time to seek donations for our own server?

well we started with that and had a stop-gap measure from caos as it was the
same color host location. kind of an intermediate step - but i am thinking it
is time to pull out this card... but ... let the flames begin.

 You have mentioned recently that there are bounties for coding E, can
 the same source of those funds donate some cvs server resources?

possibly. :) but for now maybe not. we might manage a donated server or 2...

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
裸好多
Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本)

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-13 Thread David Seikel

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:42:19 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:03:07 -0400 Michael Jennings [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 babbled:
 
  On Monday, 14 August 2006, at 12:08:06 (+0900),
  Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 
  It's not true.  SVN requires a lot more overhead (including Apache
  with SVN and DAV modules), uses a BDB backend (you remember your
  love of BDB, right?), and requires DOUBLE the amount of disk space
  for a checkout.  Yes, I said double.  Furthermore, branching and
  tagging
 
 checkouts from svn are just ridiculous. agreed. but its the server
 side i am asking about. as i said - i HEARD it is easier on the
 server - i am after details from those having been there, done that.
 yeah - bdb - oh yay. lets break format all the time.. ;)

I think the backend issue is one of those they fixed that since
issues I was talking about.  These days you get a choice of backends.

Yes, your local working copy takes up double the disk space, because it
keeps a pristine copy of what was checked out.  While this takes up
more space for the source code on a developers box, it has it's
advantages.  How many developers are that tight for space that they
can't spare some for one more copy of the source code?  It really
becomes a case of which particular trade off do you want?



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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:00:46 +1000 David Seikel [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:42:19 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:03:07 -0400 Michael Jennings [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  babbled:
  
   On Monday, 14 August 2006, at 12:08:06 (+0900),
   Carsten Haitzler wrote:
  
   It's not true.  SVN requires a lot more overhead (including Apache
   with SVN and DAV modules), uses a BDB backend (you remember your
   love of BDB, right?), and requires DOUBLE the amount of disk space
   for a checkout.  Yes, I said double.  Furthermore, branching and
   tagging
  
  checkouts from svn are just ridiculous. agreed. but its the server
  side i am asking about. as i said - i HEARD it is easier on the
  server - i am after details from those having been there, done that.
  yeah - bdb - oh yay. lets break format all the time.. ;)
 
 I think the backend issue is one of those they fixed that since
 issues I was talking about.  These days you get a choice of backends.
 
 Yes, your local working copy takes up double the disk space, because it
 keeps a pristine copy of what was checked out.  While this takes up
 more space for the source code on a developers box, it has it's
 advantages.  How many developers are that tight for space that they
 can't spare some for one more copy of the source code?  It really
 becomes a case of which particular trade off do you want?

its not the space - its the extra rsync times having to scan 2x as many
files. :)

but - if snc server-side is a big improvement for anon access - i will be
willing to forgo such performance in the name of better anon

-- 
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The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
裸好多
Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本)

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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

2006-08-13 Thread David Seikel

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:11:00 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:00:46 +1000 David Seikel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 babbled:
 
  On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:42:19 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:03:07 -0400 Michael Jennings
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
   
On Monday, 14 August 2006, at 12:08:06 (+0900),
Carsten Haitzler wrote:
   
It's not true.  SVN requires a lot more overhead (including
Apache with SVN and DAV modules), uses a BDB backend (you
remember your love of BDB, right?), and requires DOUBLE the
amount of disk space for a checkout.  Yes, I said double.
Furthermore, branching and tagging
   
   checkouts from svn are just ridiculous. agreed. but its the server
   side i am asking about. as i said - i HEARD it is easier on the
   server - i am after details from those having been there, done
   that. yeah - bdb - oh yay. lets break format all the time.. ;)
  
  I think the backend issue is one of those they fixed that since
  issues I was talking about.  These days you get a choice of
  backends.
  
  Yes, your local working copy takes up double the disk space,
  because it keeps a pristine copy of what was checked out.  While
  this takes up more space for the source code on a developers box,
  it has it's advantages.  How many developers are that tight for
  space that they can't spare some for one more copy of the source
  code?  It really becomes a case of which particular trade off do
  you want?
 
 its not the space - its the extra rsync times having to scan 2x as
 many files. :)

That's not a server side issue.  It's only the developers working copy
that has this issue.



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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:18:40 +1000 David Seikel [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:11:00 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:00:46 +1000 David Seikel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  babbled:
  
   On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:42:19 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:03:07 -0400 Michael Jennings
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 On Monday, 14 August 2006, at 12:08:06 (+0900),
 Carsten Haitzler wrote:

 It's not true.  SVN requires a lot more overhead (including
 Apache with SVN and DAV modules), uses a BDB backend (you
 remember your love of BDB, right?), and requires DOUBLE the
 amount of disk space for a checkout.  Yes, I said double.
 Furthermore, branching and tagging

checkouts from svn are just ridiculous. agreed. but its the server
side i am asking about. as i said - i HEARD it is easier on the
server - i am after details from those having been there, done
that. yeah - bdb - oh yay. lets break format all the time.. ;)
   
   I think the backend issue is one of those they fixed that since
   issues I was talking about.  These days you get a choice of
   backends.
   
   Yes, your local working copy takes up double the disk space,
   because it keeps a pristine copy of what was checked out.  While
   this takes up more space for the source code on a developers box,
   it has it's advantages.  How many developers are that tight for
   space that they can't spare some for one more copy of the source
   code?  It really becomes a case of which particular trade off do
   you want?
  
  its not the space - its the extra rsync times having to scan 2x as
  many files. :)
 
 That's not a server side issue.  It's only the developers working copy
 that has this issue.

i know! :)

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
裸好多
Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本)

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[E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.

It has come to my attention that yet again we are killing systems.

yes - we are becoming a burden on yet more cvs servers. we are monsters! :(

anyway - we have been living on caosity's cvs for a while now - but we are
killing it (sorry kainx!)

so its time to finally bite the bullet and dredge up the issue of us needing
servers again.

here is what i think we need:

1. devel cvs server + future web server (for downloads too of official
tarballs etc.)
2. an anonymous cvs server and possibly second download mirror.

so 2 systems really.

i hear that svn is significantly less load for anonymous access - even
developer - who has experience with this server-side? can you confirm or deny?
i would consider a possible move to svn if we can keep our history from cvs.

so - let the flames begin.

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
裸好多
Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本)

-
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Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
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Re: [E-devel] cvs, servers and stuff.