Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Il giorno 03/feb/2014, alle ore 12:50, John Pinner funth...@gmail.com ha scritto: Hello, On 3 February 2014 02:43, Giovanni Bajo giova...@pycon.it wrote: Il giorno 01/feb/2014, alle ore 12:59, Michael spark...@gmail.com ha scritto: 400? Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). A 5-days conference with tickets starting at €100 for students and €190 for an individual ticket, including catering of course. On top of that, we got 200 beds with prices at €39 per person per night in double room, and other 200 beds at €45 per person per night, at the 4-star conference hotel, all taxes included. In Florence. EuroPython 2010 was £120 at the extra early bird rate, for a 2.5 days conference, and hotels surely can’t get much cheaper. Let’s even assume that that means “much cheaper” for you, still i wouldn’t call EP in Florence “ridiculously expensive”. All of which is true, except that youa re neglecting to mention the Partners Programme. The only way I could justify going, giving a shortage of money and time, was to treat it as a holiday and take my long conference-suffering wife. However the cost of the PP was far too high, maybe that's what Michael meant by (when you factor everything in). Hi John, that might have been true the first year; we got painful feedback on that, and acted, by adding more organization time towards skipping any middleman and hiring directly the guides. The second and third year had pretty reasonable tours in my opinion. Santa Croce: €8. Ponte Vecchio and Reinassance way of living: €8. San Marco Museum: €10. Santa Maria Novella: €10. Etc. They all included an English speaking guide and entrance fees where applicable. I think the prices were in line with EuroPython UK (http://ep2010.europython.eu/about/partners/). Since the event itself can only be described as moderately more expensive than EuroPython UK (and only if you don’t look at per-day cost), I guess the only people that were really impacted were UK people that were saving on the travel the previous years. I can see that and sympathize with them, but I don’t agree that the event was so more expensive for the average European. NOTE: I’m comparing relative numbers between UK and IT. I’m not saying that the event is “cheap” or “expensive” on absolute terms. -- Giovanni Bajo Python Italia APS EuroPython 2014 https://ep2014.europython.eu ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hello Paul, On 2 February 2014 14:24, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote: On Sunday 2. February 2014 02.09.04 Hynek Schlawack wrote: It’s quite the contrary: the current organizers were criticized for their current work they do and I tried to explain that romanticism about a conference in 2007 isn’t helping, that it’s great to have at least one big European Python conference, they are hard to do, and to the end: let them do their thing. snips That are *completely* different concerns from what you're bringing up and I find it highly irritating to be confronted with pot metaphors based on that derailment. What's a pot metaphor here exactly? Why might someone sensibly advocate a limit on attendees without having some kind of elitist agenda? Oh, that's right, I already explained why: a $100/person loss on a thousand person conference is pretty convincing; maybe it really does have something to do with that after all. This kind of thing is what irritates me hugely about the so-called Python community and why, as I've explained to a few people before now, I've diverted a lot of my time to other initiatives instead. You have people who have made substantial investments of their own time and resources into establishing something that benefits others, and what you often get in response is sniping about some hidden agenda or how people could have done more or better. It's like the mainstream subculture around Python has made some kind of virtue out of getting people to work for free so that people can pretend to be those people's boss and think they have the right to demand things from them. This pervades the so-called community from top to bottom and in almost every regard. Whereas other initiatives and communities offer appreciation for any contribution, with a thank you for having done anything at all, the apparent norm in the Python scene is to tell people that they didn't do enough or that what they did was inferior to what should have been done, or that it wasn't licensed according to community expectations (where they get to sell your work in a binary and send you the bug reports), replacing thank with another word of choice, in effect. I'm sorry, Paul, I agree with you on many things, but this is something I don't recognise at all... Christian wrote that ANY organization having volunteers work for them should be extremely humble for having anyone spend their spare time for them. Yes. Well, without accusing any organisation of anything, I think the so-called community as a whole should re-evaluate how it treats people who offer their time and resources to benefit everyone else. Yes. And I have no knowledge nor experience of the EPS treating its volunteers badly, which I think was what started this thread : a slightly emotional post from Christian based not on first-hand experience, but on hearsay. Best wishes, John -- ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Pinner wrote: Well, without accusing any organisation of anything, I think the so-called community as a whole should re-evaluate how it treats people who offer their time and resources to benefit everyone else. Yes. And I have no knowledge nor experience of the EPS treating its volunteers badly, which I think was what started this thread : a slightly emotional post from Christian based not on first-hand experience, Stop guessing please if you do not know better. Christian has experiences organizing the german Zope Python conference for more than ten years and he knows the related people very well. So you claim is wrong. - -aj -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS7nlSAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjwHALv1a8GGs4vda6Ci3pSWAhp3pM T3do+QdAenbuyPmBg5hiCQvH+Gjz8W4FGX90eSTAuljJzlLvEra0gvWsNuMhaZAP wRff4m5kJ8BgHPMoWHUk3fjAeTra60E1IIz0H97/3gNPlTiunWKnNmZ1Wb9oC82G LKCgupTfTRZ4ko/zQQ2MG+nVScNXPzmcDsqeDvfOtPTK5It2SzItidWVO58P1v0S +0yW1mdRyrV6oNub7Sr4vvphUozq0I+WM0ukjKLzoT6lDIVclULhpG6TmJftD9tM trHzLxMBuJNUeTDNBQekAnPA9ZjeOL36PLZOJBxFvFz2E2hPuwFH7J/7zJlieK1O hTdUHd18VTZI1o1H6yIjxLvdlZGj62t2TeImSV0ggoWdqLGwHaztdLxiK1YGXyHF GG//BGRQAq89G5+6MjO3M/lFy4kC4dhsDZGaUKk1KOko7n3DyCROB0aCpGJTXx5P ky+4c0wNCYQMerwlVEcqCUgoU2JlnDI= =AkZS -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hi, On 2. Feb2014, at 17:49, John Pinner funth...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. And I have no knowledge nor experience of the EPS treating its volunteers badly, which I think was what started this thread : a slightly emotional post from Christian based not on first-hand experience, but on hearsay. My post was triggered by the things the current organizers, some being close friends, told me in informal settings. Those reports reminded me of exactly the kind of community-internal turmoil that triggered me resigning from official community positions due to the shit I had to deal with in the end. This time its not my personal experience but those of my friends (some of whom did experience the same “friendly fire” two years ago). Might be what classifies as hearsay but hearing those reports makes me extremely sad and angry at the same time as the same people are involved (in the same roles) and nothing seems to have changed. I find my thoughts quite well-represented by that last mail from Paul. Christian -- Christian Theune · gocept gmbh co. kg flyingcircus.io · operations as a service Forsterstraße 29 · 06112 Halle (Saale) · Tel +49 345 1229889-7 signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hi John, On 02/01/2014 10:52 PM, John Pinner wrote: Hello, [...] If I can be assured of getting Maisels Weisbier mit Hefe, and Sclenkerla Rauchbier in Berlin near the conference venue, I'll consider the 2014 EuroPython fees reasonable ;-) that shouldn't be the least of your problems. Your Rauchbier is available after a maybe 20 minute walk from the venue (see the first address from here: http://www.schlenkerla.de/verkauf/haendler/branden/berlin.html) Even nearer, you can have the full bavarian experience at a place called Hofbraeu. Stephan John -- ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hello, On 2 February 2014 19:53, Stephan Diehl step...@transvection.de wrote: Hi John, On 02/01/2014 10:52 PM, John Pinner wrote: Hello, [...] If I can be assured of getting Maisels Weisbier mit Hefe, and Sclenkerla Rauchbier in Berlin near the conference venue, I'll consider the 2014 EuroPython fees reasonable ;-) that shouldn't be the least of your problems. Your Rauchbier is available after a maybe 20 minute walk from the venue (see the first address from here: http://www.schlenkerla.de/verkauf/haendler/branden/berlin.html) Even nearer, you can have the full bavarian experience at a place called Hofbraeu. Thank you, Stephan and Achim, for your help. Clearly this sets the seal of approval on EuroPython 2014 ! The conversation made me thirst for Schlenkerla, so I took a walk 200m from our house and bought some : maybe it is as easy to buy in the UK as in Deutschland ;-) mfg John -- ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
You might not call it ridiculously expensive. For me it was/is and I'm sorry that you don't like that, and if you want to go back and forth on this, I'll unsubscribe from the list (I probably should given it's now out my price range actually). You clearly have a higher disposable income than me - which is cool. Note I also said, *when you factor everything else in*. This isn't a criticism, my comment was an expression of surprise. Once upon a time I viewed Europython as an affordable conference - and one I could and did contribute to, since it moved to Florence (and now beyond) it hasn't been. Again, things move on, it's not a criticism. I'd rather the conference move around between places to avoid any one group getting burnt out. *Expensive is after all a relative phrase*, and I still assert that 400 EURO *is* expensive (from my perspective), and if the organisers feel that's what it'll cost them to run it at non-profit, then fair enough. Just means that it prices out lots of people from coming. But then that's economics for you. I also agree that many others will go wtf? 400 EURO is a bargain! others will go Finally, the cost is at a level where my employer will take it seriously as a real conference, and you'll get a whole load of other people instead. Which again, is cool. Anyway, I'll go back to lurking now. Michael. On 3 February 2014 02:43, Giovanni Bajo giova...@pycon.it wrote: Il giorno 01/feb/2014, alle ore 12:59, Michael spark...@gmail.com ha scritto: 400? Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). A 5-days conference with tickets starting at EURO 100 for students and EURO 190 for an individual ticket, including catering of course. On top of that, we got 200 beds with prices at EURO 39 per person per night in double room, and other 200 beds at EURO 45 per person per night, at the 4-star conference hotel, all taxes included. In Florence. EuroPython 2010 was £120 at the extra early bird rate, for a 2.5 days conference, and hotels surely can't get much cheaper. Let's even assume that that means much cheaper for you, still i wouldn't call EP in Florence ridiculously expensive. -- Giovanni Bajo Python Italia APS EuroPython 2014 https://ep2014.europython.eu ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
400? Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). Unless when you say 'all inclusive' you mean 'including accommodation'. I presume the increased costs are at least in part due to the slow shift towards peak holiday season. (I haven't been since Birmingham due to the massively increase cosy of sending. For those who don't remember/know, when Euro python was in the UK I organised the recording and transcoding of talks, on a shoe string) Saying it's 'comparable to other conferences' it's pointless btw, the reason (in part at least as I understood it) Euro python existed was to have an affordable alternative. Michael. On 31 Jan 2014 19:05, Andreas Jung li...@zopyx.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jacob Hallén wrote: In the Call for Participation that was the basis for the selection of a new site for Europython, there was a requirement for the cost of attendance. It turns out that the promised figures from the Berlin team can't be met and that cost of attendance will take a serious jump, compared to Florence. This is a serious problem for the EPS, because our explicit goal is to arrange a really affordable conference. We are now looking at conference fees that are 5 times higher than the ones for Göteborg and it is starting to hurt. Worries about getting enough participants and getting a reasonable mix of people has gotten the EPS board more involved in pricing issues than they would like to be. This is not only a concern for the conference this year, but for future conferences. A large number of the attendees have come to EuroPython for many years. If they are scared off by the price this year, they are less likely to come back in the future. With respect but this is FUD. The standard ticket price for EP 2013 were for Student/Individual/Business: 330 ? / 500 ? / 620 ? The standard EP 2014 rates are for Student/Individual/Business: 200 ? / 400 ? / 600 ? Keep in mind that all EP 2014 tickets are all-inclusive (social event, catering during the sprints etc.) Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS6/PIAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjLcELwM0a9Fe4fLkA+mULWdLfKvP9 HHHLVH99/hs/Pe4ZHAmcUF2rc6T3lyLdAC/XK3EzTl+ppEGdbXlab+oPrN6VfjHv GnUVvt7TKYfCI4cw9FkgqF1wXrqdcRVT0MXu1fecKUxKst+zQ54XaI+wY8MGhDww dC1KA5YTYZODSO3l+WFxpMblxSTeyegutSaPV7XdoxxSq5bhLhnEEj6Ev9uAxql9 Dg87vOpTWe6DU/g/0A3tsaJCduwvOVwYyHBPBPuOYts7zYrVv0QYDdNXi7Jw8Gl4 HVFd2Xb4IBPWYpeUmL1QeFj+o652aE0kIpNAIxHVi856HhyCKwBGqzpqRo/5YOcI C9K6kg6kacINgiwsNSulm2sa0JLM/AsiWMd5ZFgqnaJAi3mpRcaN+dZ00zMPuvax Bhmv3ea1FJubFfu9XQWYJug4R7yEs8zwd9IDikSaQb94v68rDqZ+61SZ2W+Mk+eQ V+P0egepnsnqRp9dnuRAFN9J7gySQmA= =yuc7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ EuroPython 2014 - Berlin, 21th-27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hello All, On 1 February 2014 11:59, Michael spark...@gmail.com wrote: 400? Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). Unless when you say 'all inclusive' you mean 'including accommodation'. I presume the increased costs are at least in part due to the slow shift towards peak holiday season. (I haven't been since Birmingham due to the massively increase cosy of sending. For those who don't remember/know, when Euro python was in the UK I organised the recording and transcoding of talks, on a shoe string) And I thought that you'd used digital media... Seriously, your input is much appreciated, we've missed you. Saying it's 'comparable to other conferences' it's pointless btw, the reason (in part at least as I understood it) Euro python existed was to have an affordable alternative. Yes, but i think that successive organisers have tried to make bigger and 'better' conferences, and once you get beyond a certain size the venue costs make the concept of an affordable 'community conference' very difficult to achieve. The extreme example is PyCon US, which when Steve Holden started it in DC was very affordable, I remember going for an all-in cost of attending less than that of going to the ACCU/Python UK conf in Oxford (just 100km from my home). Which is why we started PyCon UK, where we have managed to keep costs down to an affordable level. Nowadays, PyCon US and to a lesser extent EuroPython, have become beyond the reach of the grass roots Python enthusiasts without a sympathetic employer willing to pay their conf fees and expenses, and grant a week's time off. I think that it may be time for the various organising cabales to re-examine their objectives and decide if they are running genuine community conferences or not. If not, that's a valid decision but we need to be clear about it. Just saying... Best wishes, John -- Michael. On 31 Jan 2014 19:05, Andreas Jung li...@zopyx.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jacob Hallén wrote: In the Call for Participation that was the basis for the selection of a new site for Europython, there was a requirement for the cost of attendance. It turns out that the promised figures from the Berlin team can't be met and that cost of attendance will take a serious jump, compared to Florence. This is a serious problem for the EPS, because our explicit goal is to arrange a really affordable conference. We are now looking at conference fees that are 5 times higher than the ones for Göteborg and it is starting to hurt. Worries about getting enough participants and getting a reasonable mix of people has gotten the EPS board more involved in pricing issues than they would like to be. This is not only a concern for the conference this year, but for future conferences. A large number of the attendees have come to EuroPython for many years. If they are scared off by the price this year, they are less likely to come back in the future. With respect but this is FUD. The standard ticket price for EP 2013 were for Student/Individual/Business: 330 ? / 500 ? / 620 ? The standard EP 2014 rates are for Student/Individual/Business: 200 ? / 400 ? / 600 ? Keep in mind that all EP 2014 tickets are all-inclusive (social event, catering during the sprints etc.) Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS6/PIAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjLcELwM0a9Fe4fLkA+mULWdLfKvP9 HHHLVH99/hs/Pe4ZHAmcUF2rc6T3lyLdAC/XK3EzTl+ppEGdbXlab+oPrN6VfjHv GnUVvt7TKYfCI4cw9FkgqF1wXrqdcRVT0MXu1fecKUxKst+zQ54XaI+wY8MGhDww dC1KA5YTYZODSO3l+WFxpMblxSTeyegutSaPV7XdoxxSq5bhLhnEEj6Ev9uAxql9 Dg87vOpTWe6DU/g/0A3tsaJCduwvOVwYyHBPBPuOYts7zYrVv0QYDdNXi7Jw8Gl4 HVFd2Xb4IBPWYpeUmL1QeFj+o652aE0kIpNAIxHVi856HhyCKwBGqzpqRo/5YOcI C9K6kg6kacINgiwsNSulm2sa0JLM/AsiWMd5ZFgqnaJAi3mpRcaN+dZ00zMPuvax Bhmv3ea1FJubFfu9XQWYJug4R7yEs8zwd9IDikSaQb94v68rDqZ+61SZ2W+Mk+eQ V+P0egepnsnqRp9dnuRAFN9J7gySQmA= =yuc7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ EuroPython 2014 – Berlin, 21th–27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 – Berlin, 21th–27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Gillies wrote: I agree completely with Michael, I haven't been able to attend since the Birmingham conferences either due to the expense involved. I think it is the common process of conferences become more expensive as soon as they become larger and more popular. You need a complete different approach to logistics when you deal with up to a thousand people or deal only with small crowd of perhaps 100 to 150 people. I am not in charge for the EP 2014 financial part but it is obvious that you can not organize a conference for the same costs per persons if you deal with 100 attendees or 1000 attendees. More people, more different aspects to be considered, higher costs...I think there is no real way out of there - expect all 1000 attendees in a huge barn and tell them to bring their own beer and burgers..well, perhaps an option :-) Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS7Rx6AAoJEADcfz7u4AZjXsMLwJnn/EdjarOwuRT8I1IcMYbz WqWkTlsrarbLG2L5z+OjQJHlaoSjEFaawmuzKhWTxIle2IgN3qCPkctnY4vBp9H3 LNmnetHz0XLY6UESxkAZqLsZXLkN4cUfNtn+qrBWXoiGYX08Yze5nHtFnwarr3NS 8VeM3YFsXqaLVLfwnwVbUq0LXsH4NV7BozqP2RFsGyHhc+c0OWOQ3zDH7GiDS+vr fQV+Zn2dfYyvCP6qJe74BY/aZirIWegAtl0EX5BERooihck38FWtEa3D6w7xP4nV Lfr1qzFBaet7pkbS2jWJ5OHZO+6ECRHTwMm+xTOMVGfTdznmlebANRSroH3rSarL zBg8Xyg/v5Dd8oSotpDi1qt7hFK+W88wSUYPqeWq6jLK/QxiINRKcfyZnfuZpTvt YHxNzq9ermt1U4H2JfDfYWgBApV36/TiPP2d9HPkE3Q8TcpguK+4qrRY3eIzxzbz Xf0vJ6hIoCEmyz+LuVDKeAR4Cp9A+F0= =TpsL -END PGP SIGNATURE- attachment: lists.vcf___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
On Saturday 1. February 2014 17.10.35 Andreas Jung wrote: I think there is no real way out of there - expect all 1000 attendees in a huge barn and tell them to bring their own beer and burgers..well, perhaps an option :-) Switch out the burgers with sausages and I was led to believe that this happens every October in Munich, although I'm not sure everyone involved will be happy when they're told that they have to learn Python. ;-) Paul P.S. I think that PyCon in North America has made a virtue out of conference size in some kind of race to be bigger than the previous year's event, which I've said on a number of previous occasions makes for a different kind of conference and not one I think anyone should be emulating, but that's just my own opinion. ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
I agree completely with Michael, I haven't been able to attend since the Birmingham conferences either due to the expense involved. David On 1 February 2014 11:59, Michael spark...@gmail.com wrote: 400? Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). Unless when you say 'all inclusive' you mean 'including accommodation'. I presume the increased costs are at least in part due to the slow shift towards peak holiday season. (I haven't been since Birmingham due to the massively increase cosy of sending. For those who don't remember/know, when Euro python was in the UK I organised the recording and transcoding of talks, on a shoe string) Saying it's 'comparable to other conferences' it's pointless btw, the reason (in part at least as I understood it) Euro python existed was to have an affordable alternative. Michael. On 31 Jan 2014 19:05, Andreas Jung li...@zopyx.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jacob Hallén wrote: In the Call for Participation that was the basis for the selection of a new site for Europython, there was a requirement for the cost of attendance. It turns out that the promised figures from the Berlin team can't be met and that cost of attendance will take a serious jump, compared to Florence. This is a serious problem for the EPS, because our explicit goal is to arrange a really affordable conference. We are now looking at conference fees that are 5 times higher than the ones for Göteborg and it is starting to hurt. Worries about getting enough participants and getting a reasonable mix of people has gotten the EPS board more involved in pricing issues than they would like to be. This is not only a concern for the conference this year, but for future conferences. A large number of the attendees have come to EuroPython for many years. If they are scared off by the price this year, they are less likely to come back in the future. With respect but this is FUD. The standard ticket price for EP 2013 were for Student/Individual/Business: 330 ? / 500 ? / 620 ? The standard EP 2014 rates are for Student/Individual/Business: 200 ? / 400 ? / 600 ? Keep in mind that all EP 2014 tickets are all-inclusive (social event, catering during the sprints etc.) Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS6/PIAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjLcELwM0a9Fe4fLkA+mULWdLfKvP9 HHHLVH99/hs/Pe4ZHAmcUF2rc6T3lyLdAC/XK3EzTl+ppEGdbXlab+oPrN6VfjHv GnUVvt7TKYfCI4cw9FkgqF1wXrqdcRVT0MXu1fecKUxKst+zQ54XaI+wY8MGhDww dC1KA5YTYZODSO3l+WFxpMblxSTeyegutSaPV7XdoxxSq5bhLhnEEj6Ev9uAxql9 Dg87vOpTWe6DU/g/0A3tsaJCduwvOVwYyHBPBPuOYts7zYrVv0QYDdNXi7Jw8Gl4 HVFd2Xb4IBPWYpeUmL1QeFj+o652aE0kIpNAIxHVi856HhyCKwBGqzpqRo/5YOcI C9K6kg6kacINgiwsNSulm2sa0JLM/AsiWMd5ZFgqnaJAi3mpRcaN+dZ00zMPuvax Bhmv3ea1FJubFfu9XQWYJug4R7yEs8zwd9IDikSaQb94v68rDqZ+61SZ2W+Mk+eQ V+P0egepnsnqRp9dnuRAFN9J7gySQmA= =yuc7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ EuroPython 2014 - Berlin, 21th-27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 - Berlin, 21th-27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython -- ~ I am participating in UCU industrial action by working to contract to defend my pay: http://www.ucu.org.uk/hepay13 ~ ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. I think the most interesting people to meet at the conferences in general have a limited budget. The come to the conference on their own tab to tell the world about the cool things they are doing in their spare time. We used to be able to pay travel for speakers coming from South America and the Far East. I see this as far more important than having as many attendees as possible. Jacob lördagen den 1 februari 2014 17.10.35 skrev Andreas Jung: David Gillies wrote: I agree completely with Michael, I haven't been able to attend since the Birmingham conferences either due to the expense involved. I think it is the common process of conferences become more expensive as soon as they become larger and more popular. You need a complete different approach to logistics when you deal with up to a thousand people or deal only with small crowd of perhaps 100 to 150 people. I am not in charge for the EP 2014 financial part but it is obvious that you can not organize a conference for the same costs per persons if you deal with 100 attendees or 1000 attendees. More people, more different aspects to be considered, higher costs...I think there is no real way out of there - expect all 1000 attendees in a huge barn and tell them to bring their own beer and burgers..well, perhaps an option :-) Andreas ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Am Samstag, 1. Februar 2014, 17:42:45 schrieb Paul Boddie: On Saturday 1. February 2014 17.10.35 Andreas Jung wrote: I think there is no real way out of there - expect all 1000 attendees in a huge barn and tell them to bring their own beer and burgers..well, perhaps an option :-) Switch out the burgers with sausages and I was led to believe that this happens every October in Munich, although I'm not sure everyone involved will be happy when they're told that they have to learn Python. ;-) I guess the price development of EuroPython attendance is quite below that of beer in October in Munich. This site has some nice stats - not about Python, though: http://qz.com/125940/the-more-expensive-oktoberfest-beer-gets-to-more-beer-oktoberfest-goers-drink/ Cheers from Munich, Achim. -- Achim Herwig achim.her...@wodca.de signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the *only* explicitly European Python conference. Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist. EP is one of the cheapest conferences I’ve attended so far (only beaten by RuPy 2012 which is much shorter and took place at an University in a cheap country). Comparing prices from now and *seven* years ago is neither fair nor reasonable. The same goes for attendance numbers: the Python community in 2014 is very different from the one in 2008. I very much prefer the current approach of growing and giving out grants to people who can’t afford attending on their own than denying the EP–experience to hundreds of people completely. I think the most interesting people to meet at the conferences in general have a limited budget. The come to the conference on their own tab to tell the world about the cool things they are doing in their spare time. I don’t believe such a correlation – or even causality! – exists. If you find their talks more interesting, it falls under “personal preferences” for which it’s important to have a diverse schedule. That said, grants can make sure that such interesting people are able to attend anyway. We used to be able to pay travel for speakers coming from South America and the Far East. I see this as far more important than having as many attendees as possible. I can’t follow this reasoning. I always saw EP as Europe’s premier get-together of Python devotees that was interesting enough to attract a significant crowd from outside. Optimizing a conference called “*Euro*Python” for South American attendees seems rather backward to me (again: grants). *** The EPS will have to decide whether they just want to be a cheap get-together for a small cabal or Europe’s answer to PyCon US/NA. If it’s the former, I can only hope an alternative will form from within the organizers of the past years. We have enough cheap and small conferences; the hard task is to run a big one in a proper way without ripping people off O’Reilly-style. —h P.S. I’m not affiliated with anyone involved in this discussion, this is just my 2 cents as someone who attended all three EPs in Florence as well as other – cheap – conferences. ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
On Saturday 1. February 2014 19.15.54 Hynek Schlawack wrote: I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the *only* explicitly European Python conference. That just isn't true. Take a look at http://www.pycon.org/ to see several European Python conferences. On this point you *can* compare the situation to that of seven or more years ago, or perhaps as far back as the first EuroPython conference (which is before my time), because back then it wasn't certain that there was enough interest in a Python conference in many places. Now, you have around ten general Python conferences and a bunch of specialised Python conferences merely in Europe and not including EuroPython. Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist. There are plenty of options when it comes to attending small conferences. If people pitch EuroPython as the premier conference that people aspire to go to, and then the attendance is capped, then perhaps claims of elitism are valid. What I find refreshing, however, is that despite the promotion of large conferences like PyCon as being the one to go to, there appears to be a vibrant emerging scene of alternatives. And I sincerely doubt that smaller conferences are less interesting. I would consider going to a number of them if I weren't so lazy. PyCon UK and PyCon Italia are both apparently very good. PyCon DE also seems very solid. If I wanted to confine myself to the Nordic countries, PyCon Finland has looked like an interesting excuse for an excursion eastward, and apparently there's a Swedish conference in the pipeline. The last conference I went to was FSCONS in Sweden (in 2012), which isn't Python-specific but covers other interests of mine, and it was worth going to. EP is one of the cheapest conferences I’ve attended so far (only beaten by RuPy 2012 which is much shorter and took place at an University in a cheap country). Comparing prices from now and *seven* years ago is neither fair nor reasonable. The same goes for attendance numbers: the Python community in 2014 is very different from the one in 2008. It certainly is different: there are more interested people and, as a consequence, there are more conferences to choose from. I very much prefer the current approach of growing and giving out grants to people who can’t afford attending on their own than denying the EP–experience to hundreds of people completely. I think it's useful to discuss what the EP-experience is. Is it a thousand- plus people in a bet the farm mega-event or is it something smaller and more manageable? Is it a once a year thing or should there be many events throughout the year? Is it an eyes forward conventional conference or an unconference? Does it even matter if it's called EuroPython? [...] The EPS will have to decide whether they just want to be a cheap get-together for a small cabal or Europe’s answer to PyCon US/NA. If it’s the former, I can only hope an alternative will form from within the organizers of the past years. It's not a purely a choice between a PyCon mega-event and an elitist get- together, as I've noted above. Indeed, Europe has once again shown the way with regard to establishing community conferences that most probably provide the necessary capacity for those wanting to attend a conference, whatever their preferences are. We have enough cheap and small conferences; the hard task is to run a big one in a proper way without ripping people off O’Reilly-style. I thought you said there weren't any other European Python conferences. ;-) The unfortunate thing about big conferences, however, is that they cost a lot of money to put on, and you'll be leaning even more on a lot of volunteers to keep the prices down. There are, of course, big European community conferences that seem to manage this, and maybe their expertise can be drawn upon to do the same for a Python-specific event. If you're interested in running a big conference and doing so without ripping people off, I'm sure people would welcome your involvement. But as I'm sure you know already, large conference or small conference, you'll be investing a fair amount of your own time just to keep the costs down and to make it all happen. Paul ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hi all Am Sa, 1. Feb 2014, um 20:36, schrieb Paul Boddie: There are, of course, big European community conferences that seem to manage this, and maybe their expertise can be drawn upon to do the same for a Python-specific event. The 30th Chaos Communication Congress in Hamburg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Communication_Congress) cost 80€ for a regular ticket and 350€ for a business ticket, for a conference that took 4 days and had more than 9000 attendants. It had everything a conference needs: Crazy fast internet (100Gb/s up/down), recordings of all talks, catering, multiple tracks with talks etc... So it's definitely possible. On the other hand, there were more than 1000 volunteers that helped to run the conference. I think when focusing on creating a community-centered conference and actively encouraging volunteers, it is definitely possible to create a conference that is both big, professional and very affordable. Cheers, Danilo ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
On 1 Feb 2014, at 20:36, Paul Boddie wrote: I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the *only* explicitly European Python conference. That just isn't true. Take a look at http://www.pycon.org/ to see several European Python conferences. Please point them out to me, I see only EuroSciPy and regional ones. On this point you *can* compare the situation to that of seven or more years ago, or perhaps as far back as the first EuroPython conference (which is before my time), because back then it wasn't certain that there was enough interest in a Python conference in many places. Now, you have around ten general Python conferences and a bunch of specialised Python conferences merely in Europe and not including EuroPython. Yeah that’s the point, isn’t it? We *do* have smaller regional ones; but I see the demand for a big pan-European one. Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist. There are plenty of options when it comes to attending small conferences. Exactly! So why should EuroPython become artificially another one? If people pitch EuroPython as the premier conference that people aspire to go to, and then the attendance is capped, then perhaps claims of elitism are valid. What I find refreshing, however, is that despite the promotion of large conferences like PyCon as being the one to go to, there appears to be a vibrant emerging scene of alternatives. There is, and that’s exactly my point: we *do* have small conferences (and they are getting more). And I sincerely doubt that smaller conferences are less interesting. I didn’t say that, did I? I would consider going to a number of them if I weren't so lazy. PyCon UK and PyCon Italia are both apparently very good. PyCon DE also seems very solid. This is interesting because PyCon DE was way more expensive in the past years than EP. EP is one of the cheapest conferences I’ve attended so far (only beaten by RuPy 2012 which is much shorter and took place at an University in a cheap country). Comparing prices from now and *seven* years ago is neither fair nor reasonable. The same goes for attendance numbers: the Python community in 2014 is very different from the one in 2008. It certainly is different: there are more interested people and, as a consequence, there are more conferences to choose from. Exactly. That’s why we need at least one big conference in Europe. I very much prefer the current approach of growing and giving out grants to people who can’t afford attending on their own than denying the EP–experience to hundreds of people completely. I think it's useful to discuss what the EP-experience is. Is it a thousand- plus people in a bet the farm mega-event or is it something smaller and more manageable? Is it a once a year thing or should there be many events throughout the year? Is it an eyes forward conventional conference or an unconference? Does it even matter if it's called EuroPython? If a conference is called “EuroPython”, I certainly expect something different than from a regional one. For example, that most of the schedule is in English. See it that way: for me and many others conferences are mostly about people. If I have to attend three conferences instead of one to meet all my Internet friends, it gets more expensive very fast. And big confs also attract our friends from overseas, it’s very nice to see them more than once a year. The EPS will have to decide whether they just want to be a cheap get-together for a small cabal or Europe’s answer to PyCon US/NA. If it’s the former, I can only hope an alternative will form from within the organizers of the past years. It's not a purely a choice between a PyCon mega-event and an elitist get- together, as I've noted above. Indeed, Europe has once again shown the way with regard to establishing community conferences that most probably provide the necessary capacity for those wanting to attend a conference, whatever their preferences are. It certainly is for a particular conference (EP in this case). Nobody is arguing that *every* conference should aspire to grow like PyCon US. But I’m going to argue that downsizing an established conference is a waste and the wrong step. We have enough cheap and small conferences; the hard task is to run a big one in a proper way without ripping people off O’Reilly-style. I thought you said there weren't any other European Python conferences. ;-) I wrote “explicitly European Python”. RuPy is about Ruby and JS, the rest is regional or sciency. The unfortunate thing about big conferences, however, is that they cost a lot of money to put on, and you'll be leaning even more on a lot of volunteers to keep the prices down. There are, of course, big European community conferences that seem to manage this, and maybe their expertise can be
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
On Saturday 1. February 2014 20.38.07 Danilo wrote: Am Sa, 1. Feb 2014, um 20:36, schrieb Paul Boddie: There are, of course, big European community conferences that seem to manage this, and maybe their expertise can be drawn upon to do the same for a Python-specific event. The 30th Chaos Communication Congress in Hamburg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Communication_Congress) cost 80€ for a regular ticket and 350€ for a business ticket, for a conference that took 4 days and had more than 9000 attendants. It had everything a conference needs: Crazy fast internet (100Gb/s up/down), recordings of all talks, catering, multiple tracks with talks etc... So it's definitely possible. There's also FOSDEM this very weekend, although I'm not sure how the profile of FOSDEM compares with CCC or with other events. On the other hand, there were more than 1000 volunteers that helped to run the conference. I think when focusing on creating a community-centered conference and actively encouraging volunteers, it is definitely possible to create a conference that is both big, professional and very affordable. I completely agree with you, and the example you provide was one of the events I was thinking of. But nobody should be under any illusion that this kind of thing is going to happen without a lot of effort. (I guess the 30th is a good indication of that.) And I still think people should ask themselves whether an event on that scale is really the kind of event they would like to go to. Paul ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
On Saturday 1. February 2014 21.24.02 Hynek Schlawack wrote: On 1 Feb 2014, at 20:36, Paul Boddie wrote: I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the *only* explicitly European Python conference. That just isn't true. Take a look at http://www.pycon.org/ to see several European Python conferences. Please point them out to me, I see only EuroSciPy and regional ones. OK, you meant pan-European conferences or conferences trying to attract people from other countries. That said, people go to PyCon UK from other countries, and although it is obviously convenient for UK-based people, I don't think it is trying to be specifically UK-oriented. The same goes for many of the others, I imagine. PyCon Finland, for example, seems to have a lot of English on its site and in its schedule for a regional conference. (I can tell you that as far as I know, EuroPython 2009 in the UK actually had almost half of its attendees coming from the UK. Maybe that's the lower bound on UK attendance that you get by applying Euro to something and that it's more like 80% UK attendees for PyCon UK, but I don't really think the events are any different just because of the name.) On this point you *can* compare the situation to that of seven or more years ago, or perhaps as far back as the first EuroPython conference (which is before my time), because back then it wasn't certain that there was enough interest in a Python conference in many places. Now, you have around ten general Python conferences and a bunch of specialised Python conferences merely in Europe and not including EuroPython. Yeah that’s the point, isn’t it? We *do* have smaller regional ones; but I see the demand for a big pan-European one. OK, maybe there's nothing really to discuss, then. People can go to a smaller conference and probably pay less, or they can go to a bigger one and potentially pay more. Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist. There are plenty of options when it comes to attending small conferences. Exactly! So why should EuroPython become artificially another one? For the record, EuroPython was quite small to start with, which shouldn't be a huge surprise because that's often how things start out. From what I can dig up [*], it had about 250 people in 2002/2003, went up gradually to about 280 in 2006, was around 220 in 2007/2008, and then shot up to around 450 in 2009. You can see how large PyCon was over the years as well [**]. So, it was only around 2008 that these conferences started to grow more than what you can regard as organically. [*] https://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2007 [**] https://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon/Attendance [...] There is, and that’s exactly my point: we *do* have small conferences (and they are getting more). And I sincerely doubt that smaller conferences are less interesting. I didn’t say that, did I? Well, I'm not sure what you were trying to say. You did say this: Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist. I would consider going to a number of them if I weren't so lazy. PyCon UK and PyCon Italia are both apparently very good. PyCon DE also seems very solid. This is interesting because PyCon DE was way more expensive in the past years than EP. OK, but I didn't say anything about price, other than that some people care a lot about the price. So maybe PyCon DE wasn't for them. [...] I think it's useful to discuss what the EP-experience is. Is it a thousand-plus people in a bet the farm mega-event or is it something smaller and more manageable? Is it a once a year thing or should there be many events throughout the year? Is it an eyes forward conventional conference or an unconference? Does it even matter if it's called EuroPython? If a conference is called “EuroPython”, I certainly expect something different than from a regional one. For example, that most of the schedule is in English. This is the case for quite a few of them. Maybe not all of them, but I get your point. See it that way: for me and many others conferences are mostly about people. If I have to attend three conferences instead of one to meet all my Internet friends, it gets more expensive very fast. And big confs also attract our friends from overseas, it’s very nice to see them more than once a year. Well, that's great, and it's good to know that you get so much out of these events. I admit that people suggested FOSDEM to me as a venue to catch up, although FSCONS - a much smaller event - served a similar purpose for me in the past. I guess it can also depend on how specific the event is and how you know those people, and I guess it's hard if what you have in common with them is quite general and not confined to a fairly narrow interest (so they
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hello, On 1 February 2014 22:43, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote: On Saturday 1. February 2014 21.24.02 Hynek Schlawack wrote: On 1 Feb 2014, at 20:36, Paul Boddie wrote: snips It certainly is for a particular conference (EP in this case). Nobody is arguing that *every* conference should aspire to grow like PyCon US. But I’m going to argue that downsizing an established conference is a waste and the wrong step. I haven't followed EuroPython over the last three years, so I cannot comment on how many people were there, but if we're at a thousand people now then this is effectively PyCon-style growth (maybe not quite as aggressive given that they're at 2000 people now, I think). Perhaps the emergence of what you call regional conferences is a response to that. I'd be really interested in knowing whether former EuroPython organisers would be interested in running the conference again either at the level it was at when they ran it or at its current level. Speaking for myself, and my fellow PyCon UK/EuroPython 2009/2010 organisers, we 've discussed this and the answer would be No. I think that EuroPython 2010, at about 450, was as big as any one of us would wish, and it was hard enough work. Anything bigger gets to be beyond reason. If we were to run an event with, say, 1000 delegates we would need to use a venue such as the International Convention Centre, and this would come at a high cost with attendant risks. At the venue we use now, we could manage up to 650, but teh thought of herding that many cats is horrrific... I can well imagine that many people just don't want the hassle of stepping up to the larger venues, where the stakes can be quite a bit higher (just ask the PSF), and the need to find people willing to run such events is precisely the problem that the EuroPython Society seems to have walked into. [...] If you're interested in running a big conference and doing so without ripping people off, I'm sure people would welcome your involvement. But as I'm sure you know already, large conference or small conference, you'll be investing a fair amount of your own time just to keep the costs down and to make it all happen. I’m not sure what you’re arguing for or against; because you’re basically just validating what I was saying? No, I was just saying that you seem to be exactly the kind of person the EuroPython Society is looking for to organise the kind of large-scale event that you'd like to see in Europe that is neither regional nor sciency. The classic Free Software mantra : if you don't like it, fix it, less politely p*ss or get off the pot ;-) There have been claims that we should cap the size in the future so we get cheaper so everybody can attend financially (but not realistically because of the artificial limit). I was arguing against that. Neither did I say that small conferences are without merit, nor did I voice disapproval with the organizers of EP14. All I’m saying is that there is a need for a big European conference and it would be sad if EP threw away its reputation it built in Florence EuroPython has not been held in Firenze alone. and tried to become a small conference with a big name. Well, fair enough. I was just pointing out that EuroPython was not traditionally this big - however big it actually is now - and that there are practical constraints that mean that people do sensibly suggest a limit on the number of people who can go. Ultimately, it comes down to whether you can find a bunch of organisers who will take on handling a large number of conference attendees at a venue that may very well be beyond the budget and levels of risk that they are used to, and where the scale of the facility may automatically take them into premium territory, depending on where and how well-connected they are. Exactly. Perhaps it would be sad to downsize EuroPython, but unless you have people willing to take the conference on at the scale you prefer - and they do have valid reasons to be wary of doing so - then there may be no other choice. That's all I'm saying. Agreed. Best wishes, John -- ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
No, I was just saying that you seem to be exactly the kind of person the EuroPython Society is looking for to organise the kind of large-scale event that you'd like to see in Europe that is neither regional nor sciency. The classic Free Software mantra : if you don't like it, fix it, less politely p*ss or get off the pot ;-) I’m neither complaining about anything nor telling people who actually do something to do things differently so I’m not sure how that mantra applies here. There have been claims that we should cap the size in the future so we get cheaper so everybody can attend financially (but not realistically because of the artificial limit). I was arguing against that. Neither did I say that small conferences are without merit, nor did I voice disapproval with the organizers of EP14. All I’m saying is that there is a need for a big European conference and it would be sad if EP threw away its reputation it built in Florence EuroPython has not been held in Firenze alone. EP’s *current* reputation certainly has been mostly influenced by the last three years. People’s memories work like that, whether you like it or not. Most folks I’ve met there didn’t even know where it happened before. Ultimately, it comes down to whether you can find a bunch of organisers who will take on handling a large number of conference attendees at a venue that may very well be beyond the budget and levels of risk that they are used to, and where the scale of the facility may automatically take them into premium territory, depending on where and how well-connected they are. Exactly. That’s fascinating opinions, but that wasn’t the discussion *I* was having. It’s quite the contrary: the current organizers were criticized for their current work they do and I tried to explain that romanticism about a conference in 2007 isn’t helping, that it’s great to have at least one big European Python conference, they are hard to do, and to the end: let them do their thing. But apparently it changed into “organizing big conferences is hard, you should do it if you like them so much because it’s hard to find organizers” without anybody telling me. Perhaps it would be sad to downsize EuroPython, but unless you have people willing to take the conference on at the scale you prefer - and they do have valid reasons to be wary of doing so - then there may be no other choice. That's all I'm saying. Agreed. Same as above. Let me be crystal clear here: I don’t feel entitled to big EuroPythons. I am thankful of *any* volunteer work that gets done. But that’s very different from intentionally asking for – or even mandating – a downsize. And that’s all I was arguing about. —h ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
On Sunday 2. February 2014 00.39.15 Hynek Schlawack wrote: It’s quite the contrary: the current organizers were criticized for their current work they do and I tried to explain that romanticism about a conference in 2007 isn’t helping, that it’s great to have at least one big European Python conference, they are hard to do, and to the end: let them do their thing. I'm not criticising the current organisers. In fact, I don't think anyone is, not even the apparently malign EuroPython Society. Any mention of 2007 is just to provide historical context. You can paint that as romanticism or nostalgia or whatever, but since the people involved actually organised it before and actually run events now in various cases, and since one might consider them candidates for running the conference in future, I think it's worth listening to what they have to say about it. But apparently it changed into “organizing big conferences is hard, you should do it if you like them so much because it’s hard to find organizers” without anybody telling me. Well, if the opinions of the people with experience don't count, or if they do count but only enough for everyone to realise that they're not interested in doing it at the desired scale, maybe we do need to find organisers including those for a passion for seeing a big conference happen. Perhaps it would be sad to downsize EuroPython, but unless you have people willing to take the conference on at the scale you prefer - and they do have valid reasons to be wary of doing so - then there may be no other choice. That's all I'm saying. Agreed. Same as above. Right. We all agree that limiting the number of people who can attend EuroPython might be a practical matter. Let me be crystal clear here: I don’t feel entitled to big EuroPythons. I am thankful of *any* volunteer work that gets done. But that’s very different from intentionally asking for – or even mandating – a downsize. And that’s all I was arguing about. Right. So if we go back to what was actually said... I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the only explicitly European Python conference. Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist. ...maybe we can all just about see that any suggestion of capping attendance might have been motivated by practical considerations. Even this... I see this as far more important than having as many attendees as possible. ...makes sense from a purely practical perspective. You can't really choose a venue that's big enough for a few hundred and then change it for a bigger one when you realise that your conference is really popular. And if you have to anticipate thousands of people, you have to step into the big league and take a huge gamble by booking a venue that you then really need to fill. If it's a choice between having as many attendees as possible (and thus taking big gambles or messing venues around and paying cancellation fees) and accepting that there will be a limit, most people will not take the risks of the former approach. Again, ask the PSF about PyCon 2009 if you don't regard this as a concern. So, I think we can all agree that no-one was being elitist at all, unless elitist means not being willing to lose six-figure sums on planning a community conference. Paul ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
It’s quite the contrary: the current organizers were criticized for their current work they do and I tried to explain that romanticism about a conference in 2007 isn’t helping, that it’s great to have at least one big European Python conference, they are hard to do, and to the end: let them do their thing. I'm not criticising the current organisers. FWIW, my original reply didn't go to you either. But apparently it changed into “organizing big conferences is hard, you should do it if you like them so much because it’s hard to find organizers” without anybody telling me. Well, if the opinions of the people with experience don't count, or if they do count but only enough for everyone to realise that they're not interested in doing it at the desired scale, maybe we do need to find organisers including those for a passion for seeing a big conference happen. I didn't say they don't count, I'm saying that's a completely different discussion I'm not leading here. Let me be crystal clear here: I don’t feel entitled to big EuroPythons. I am thankful of *any* volunteer work that gets done. But that’s very different from intentionally asking for – or even mandating – a downsize. And that’s all I was arguing about. Right. So if we go back to what was actually said... I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the only explicitly European Python conference. Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist. ...maybe we can all just about see that any suggestion of capping attendance might have been motivated by practical considerations. Even this... That's not what the mail said I was replying to. It was very specific that it was only about affordability of the ticket prices. I see this as far more important than having as many attendees as possible. ...makes sense from a purely practical perspective. You can't really choose a venue that's big enough for a few hundred and then change it for a bigger one when you realise that your conference is really popular. And if you have to anticipate thousands of people, you have to step into the big league and take a huge gamble by booking a venue that you then really need to fill. If it's a choice between having as many attendees as possible (and thus taking big gambles or messing venues around and paying cancellation fees) and accepting that there will be a limit, most people will not take the risks of the former approach. Again, ask the PSF about PyCon 2009 if you don't regard this as a concern. So, I think we can all agree that no-one was being elitist at all, unless elitist means not being willing to lose six-figure sums on planning a community conference. Please do me the courtesy and consider my reply in the context of the email I've replied to and stop extending the scope of the discussion. I've never asked anyone to take gambles and never will. The mail *I* replied to said it would be a good thing *for the conference* to get smaller because we could fly in people from South America and those people are more interesting anyway. That are *completely* different concerns from what you're bringing up and I find it highly irritating to be confronted with pot metaphors based on that derailment. Obviously if financial/organizational reasons force us to shrink EP that takes absolutely precedence. But let's not fool ourselves that that would do the conference any favor. ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Christian Theune schrieb: not being part of the organizing team of EP 2014 but noticing how the EuroPython society works: I’d rather recommend everyone who thinks about organizing anything to stay miles away from the EPS for your own sanity. If anyone thinks about participating I’d recommend contacting the organizing team for Berlin 2014 (which was publicly given the task of organizing 2015, too AFAICT). I don't understand. Can you please explain in detail? Regards Markus ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hi Marc-André, this call comes as a little surprise to me. To my knowledge after EuroPython 2013 in Florence there was a call for proposals for 2014 and 2015, following a rule saying that it would be wise to reuse locally accumulated knowledge at least once. Berlin volunteered to organized these two and the EPS accepted. Right? I'd much appreciate if you could elaborate on how the fact of posting your call can be considered an improvement in the EuroPython conference series, especially since the event in 2014 hasn't even happened, yet? As an aside, I'm much in favor of improving things, including the EuroPython conference series. Everything can be improved, for ever. But after reading a bit on europython-society.org I must say I'm finding the amount of helpful information or tools on how to organize an EuroPython conference rather underwhelming. Instead there is much text about the EPS bylaws, board, members and a general assembly. Not enough though, to understand e.g. how the board approves membership applications. I've been to at least five EuroPython conferences, but I can't remember having given my vote to anybody in the EPS board. True, I'm not an EPS member, the same holds for thousands of others. BTW, how many members does the EPS have? europython-society.org doesn't tell, or I couldn't find the figure. Does it have enough to speak for the entire community? A final remark, just weeks ago I briefly thought about becoming an EPS member without quite knowing the implications. I've changed my mind again, now, because I've seen too many organizations with members obsessed by themselves and the letters of their own rules rather than by their real subject. I'm glad I've missed that trap, so I can actually contribute something to a successful conference. Which is not to say that the EPS doesn't make a useful job, it's just maybe not always too obvious, at least for me. Regards, Dinu PS: BTW, I'm making a wild guess here, but the EuroPython list signature just maybe should rather read 21th-27th July instead of 21th27th July. M.-A. Lemburg: [Please help spread the word by forwarding to other relevant mailing lists, user groups, etc.; thanks :-)] The EuroPython Society (EPS) has started work on preparing the Call for Participation (CFP) for organizing the EuroPython 2015 conference: http://www.europython-society.org/ For 2015, we are setting up a new structure for the conference organization, which is focused on local and distributed work groups that are closely integrated with the EuroPython Society. We hope to greatly reduce the work load for the local teams, attract community members that want to get involved and to streamline the whole process of transitioning from one location to the next, making the conference organization a lot easier for everyone. If you are interested in potentially signing up as local team or participating in the work groups, please subscribe to one of our communication channels: * Tumblr http://www.tumblr.com/follow/europythonsociety * RSS http://www.europython-society.org/rss * Twitter https://twitter.com/europythons * EuroPython Mailing List https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython We are aiming for end of February as announcement date for the CFP 2015. Enjoy, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
I wrote: PS: BTW, I'm making a wild guess here, but the EuroPython list signature just maybe should rather read 21th-27th July instead of 21th27th July. And to please the really nitpicking: 21st-27th July would be even better. Regards, Dinu ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hi Dinu, as we mentioned in the email: we've *started work* on the call for participation. We'll have more information available when we announce the call :-) A lot of work still needs to be done, since we're aiming for a new model of organizing EuroPython conferences. Please have some patience. Cheers, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Please remove me from this mailing list. I would argue that it should read '21st-27th July' not '21th-27th July' Jasper Paterson Python Specialist Consultant 9 Wootton Street, London, SE1 8TG // 020 7928 2525 // 07551 157 389 // www.welovesalt.com Salt helps clients find exceptional talent to enable their digital transformation. If a client engages any candidate, standard Salt terms will apply, a copy of which can be found here: http://www.welovesalt.com/terms-and-conditions. Registered Office: Panel House, Park Street, Guildford, GU1 4HN. Registered In England Wales No. 06912620 Think green. Consider the environment before printing this email or its attachment(s) -Original Message- From: EuroPython [mailto:europython-bounces+jasper.paterson=welovesalt@python.org] On Behalf Of Dinu Gherman Sent: 31 January 2014 10:10 To: M.-A. Lemburg Cc: EuroPython Mailing List; europython-improve Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started Hi Marc-André, this call comes as a little surprise to me. To my knowledge after EuroPython 2013 in Florence there was a call for proposals for 2014 and 2015, following a rule saying that it would be wise to reuse locally accumulated knowledge at least once. Berlin volunteered to organized these two and the EPS accepted. Right? I'd much appreciate if you could elaborate on how the fact of posting your call can be considered an improvement in the EuroPython conference series, especially since the event in 2014 hasn't even happened, yet? As an aside, I'm much in favor of improving things, including the EuroPython conference series. Everything can be improved, for ever. But after reading a bit on europython-society.org I must say I'm finding the amount of helpful information or tools on how to organize an EuroPython conference rather underwhelming. Instead there is much text about the EPS bylaws, board, members and a general assembly. Not enough though, to understand e.g. how the board approves membership applications. I've been to at least five EuroPython conferences, but I can't remember having given my vote to anybody in the EPS board. True, I'm not an EPS member, the same holds for thousands of others. BTW, how many members does the EPS have? europython-society.org doesn't tell, or I couldn't find the figure. Does it have enough to speak for the entire community? A final remark, just weeks ago I briefly thought about becoming an EPS member without quite knowing the implications. I've changed my mind again, now, because I've seen too many organizations with members obsessed by themselves and the letters of their own rules rather than by their real subject. I'm glad I've missed that trap, so I can actually contribute something to a successful conference. Which is not to say that the EPS doesn't make a useful job, it's just maybe not always too obvious, at least for me. Regards, Dinu PS: BTW, I'm making a wild guess here, but the EuroPython list signature just maybe should rather read 21th-27th July instead of 21th27th July. M.-A. Lemburg: [Please help spread the word by forwarding to other relevant mailing lists, user groups, etc.; thanks :-)] The EuroPython Society (EPS) has started work on preparing the Call for Participation (CFP) for organizing the EuroPython 2015 conference: http://www.europython-society.org/ For 2015, we are setting up a new structure for the conference organization, which is focused on local and distributed work groups that are closely integrated with the EuroPython Society. We hope to greatly reduce the work load for the local teams, attract community members that want to get involved and to streamline the whole process of transitioning from one location to the next, making the conference organization a lot easier for everyone. If you are interested in potentially signing up as local team or participating in the work groups, please subscribe to one of our communication channels: * Tumblr http://www.tumblr.com/follow/europythonsociety * RSS http://www.europython-society.org/rss * Twitter https://twitter.com/europythons * EuroPython Mailing List https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython We are aiming for end of February as announcement date for the CFP 2015. Enjoy, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
On Friday 31. January 2014 09.20.28 Christian Theune wrote: I’m close friends with some of the EP 2014 organizers. Seeing them in such pain an despair caused by the EPS makes me feel so sad for our community. Many of the current organizers have a lot of experience in organizing a conference and getting things done. Being volunteers they should not have to deal with this arrogance of bureaucracy. *ANY* organization having volunteers work for them should be extremely humble for having *anyone* spend their spare time for them. The EPS is the opposite. They position themselves as strong leaders of whatever (starting with a back-chamber election two years ago) and having to defend the good name of the EPS (for whatever reason) to avoid the volunteers doing anything wrong. I haven't had anything to do with EuroPython for the last three years, so I'm not able to comment on anything beyond my last involvement and what has taken place in public, but I think that any discussion about dissatisfaction with the way things are done should be a constructive one. I agree with you completely that the efforts of volunteers should be recognised and that organisations shouldn't make more work for those people because it is convenient to do so. My impression was that the way EuroPython has been organised since I last participated back in 2010, with a certain level of agreement preceding that, involved (and would involve) more coordination from year to year and from venue to venue, meaning that the needless dumping and subsequent reinvention of tools and systems, and the needless loss of expertise would not continue. Not least because only the most motivated and well-resourced groups are able to perform such tear downs, and even then they are arguably wasting their own time doing so. The way this should all function is that local and general expertise is combined so that everybody benefits. Both the Italian and UK organisers had a track record in organising conferences before taking on the role of hosting the EuroPython conference, and neither were likely to experience problems in doing so. Similarly, there's a lot of expertise amongst this year's organisers, so in principle they could get by doing everything themselves, too. But unless EuroPython is going to be a bit like the (previously) rotating EU presidency where the name just gets used by existing conferences who are doing just fine, there has to be some accumulation of knowledge and experience so that others can consider hosting the conference themselves. In principle, having a parent organisation is beneficial because it should be able to offer substantial support to potential organising groups and be able to retain expertise that is independent of any particular local group. It has always seemed quite absurd that as people rewrite some system or other for the nth time because they didn't like the last one, that people didn't all collaborate on such things - wherever they happen to be situated, because that is of relatively little significance - over the many years that the conference has been in existence. Nobody has to sit somewhere local to the venue a couple of months before, hacking away, even though the circumstances have finally managed to focus their mind on the task in hand. Again, to any organization that deals with volunteers: shut the fuck up, enable people, get out of their hair and get your ego down. Well, yes, I agree in principle that volunteers should be able to contribute and not feel like they are doing someone's job for them, although I think that everyone involved with EuroPython is a volunteer, so perhaps it is all about figuring out a consensus. If I were more involved with EuroPython now, I would be worried that no-one would be able to pick up the conference once all the interested organisers of big conferences have taken it on and have decided that once/twice/thrice was enough. My feeling is that conferences should perhaps grow organically, anyway, and this would also allow them to experiment with new formats, which is what PyCon UK has apparently done quite successfully. But that shouldn't mean that there isn't a role to play for an organisation who can assist groups in getting started: there are certainly many useful lessons to be learned from such an entity and its members. It may be the case that this year's organisers don't really need the help - I couldn't say - but others might benefit from it in future. But I think people need to work constructively towards a collaboration that benefits everyone now and in the future. Paul P.S. And before anyone asks, no, I've never had any EuroPython Society role. P.P.S. And I'll gladly take any thread of this nature to another list if this is desired, and before I get mistaken for being the secretary of random people on the Internet for whom the notion of self-service is a new one. (Read the message footer, people!)
[EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
I am writing this from the sidelines, since I am not actively participating in the EPS board work, though I am formally treasurer for the EPS. This has given me access to what is going on, but I don't have a deep emotional involvement in the ongoing discussions and negotiations. I'm still writing tis in we form, since I feel a responsibility for the future of EuroPython. I have been involved in the setup of all new locations for EuroPython and this is the first time we have run into real difficulties in the collaboration with the local organization. In the Call for Participation that was the basis for the selection of a new site for Europython, there was a requirement for the cost of attendance. It turns out that the promised figures from the Berlin team can't be met and that cost of attendance will take a serious jump, compared to Florence. This is a serious problem for the EPS, because our explicit goal is to arrange a really affordable conference. We are now looking at conference fees that are 5 times higher than the ones for Göteborg and it is starting to hurt. Worries about getting enough participants and getting a reasonable mix of people has gotten the EPS board more involved in pricing issues than they would like to be. This is not only a concern for the conference this year, but for future conferences. A large number of the attendees have come to EuroPython for many years. If they are scared off by the price this year, they are less likely to come back in the future. This may be the first EuroPython where I won't be able to afford going. There was another requirement in the CfP, for the local organization to use the conference system that was used and developed by the people in Florence. As Paul Boddie correctly guessed, this is a way for the EPS to enable future local organizers to work with exiting tools, instead of having to invent their own. What happens when people invent their own is that we lose functionality and make conference participants fight buggy software. We actually had a working conference system with voting on talks, accommodation booking and all sorts of features in 2005, but it was abandoned by the people at CERN. It came as a surprise and chock to the EPS when the Berlin team flat out refused to use the system that has been developed by the Italians. They argue that the system is not of production quality. I can't really say much about that, since I haven't seen the code, but there were resources available from the Italians to improve the system and to help with setting it up for the Berlin conference. The EPS has ended up accepting that the Berlin organizers build their own system, but having a system that a new conference organizer can just start using is still a strategic goal. The final issue is that the Berlin team designed a new conference logo. At the same time they decided that they wanted to market the conference as EP14. This is not acceptable to the EPS. We feel that it is important that EuroPython is called EuroPython. We have accepted the logo under the condition that EuroPython is spelled out underneath it, wherever it is used. We have also required that URLs, Email addresses and other communication channels use the EUroPython name and not ep14. This has met severe and (in my opinion) pig- headed resistance from some of the local organizers. Having worked with past organizers, I know that every one of them would have quickly and fully complied with our request. --- The first two points I have mentioned have been resolved with the local organization, but the outcome is not what the EPS would like it to be. The third issue seems to be mostly sorted out, though there may still be some holdover left. This means that there is a working collaboration between the EPS and the local organizers, though there are still points of friction. I hope the collaboration climate can be improved and I am sure that the local organizers are working on it. The EPS board certainly is. I think much of the controversy could have been avoided if we had had direct communications with more people on the ground in Berlin before the preparations for the conference started. The announcement of a CfP for 2015 should be seen in this light. There are a couple of important goals for the EPS that can be better fulfilled by putting out a CfP, based on the things we have learned from the previous process. The winning bid may still come from Berlin, but this time with a clearer understanding of expectations. Now, the EuroPython Society is an open membership organization. If you think the board is mishandling or misjudging the situation, you are free to join and change the way the society operates. Jacob Hallén ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jacob Hallén wrote: In the Call for Participation that was the basis for the selection of a new site for Europython, there was a requirement for the cost of attendance. It turns out that the promised figures from the Berlin team can't be met and that cost of attendance will take a serious jump, compared to Florence. This is a serious problem for the EPS, because our explicit goal is to arrange a really affordable conference. We are now looking at conference fees that are 5 times higher than the ones for Göteborg and it is starting to hurt. Worries about getting enough participants and getting a reasonable mix of people has gotten the EPS board more involved in pricing issues than they would like to be. This is not only a concern for the conference this year, but for future conferences. A large number of the attendees have come to EuroPython for many years. If they are scared off by the price this year, they are less likely to come back in the future. With respect but this is FUD. The standard ticket price for EP 2013 were for Student/Individual/Business: 330 ? / 500 ? / 620 ? The standard EP 2014 rates are for Student/Individual/Business: 200 ? / 400 ? / 600 ? Keep in mind that all EP 2014 tickets are all-inclusive (social event, catering during the sprints etc.) Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS6/PIAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjLcELwM0a9Fe4fLkA+mULWdLfKvP9 HHHLVH99/hs/Pe4ZHAmcUF2rc6T3lyLdAC/XK3EzTl+ppEGdbXlab+oPrN6VfjHv GnUVvt7TKYfCI4cw9FkgqF1wXrqdcRVT0MXu1fecKUxKst+zQ54XaI+wY8MGhDww dC1KA5YTYZODSO3l+WFxpMblxSTeyegutSaPV7XdoxxSq5bhLhnEEj6Ev9uAxql9 Dg87vOpTWe6DU/g/0A3tsaJCduwvOVwYyHBPBPuOYts7zYrVv0QYDdNXi7Jw8Gl4 HVFd2Xb4IBPWYpeUmL1QeFj+o652aE0kIpNAIxHVi856HhyCKwBGqzpqRo/5YOcI C9K6kg6kacINgiwsNSulm2sa0JLM/AsiWMd5ZFgqnaJAi3mpRcaN+dZ00zMPuvax Bhmv3ea1FJubFfu9XQWYJug4R7yEs8zwd9IDikSaQb94v68rDqZ+61SZ2W+Mk+eQ V+P0egepnsnqRp9dnuRAFN9J7gySQmA= =yuc7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- attachment: lists.vcf___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hello Jacob :-) I'm currently part of the web team for the EP2014 and have attended EuroPython conferences for the last 4 years. I also helped on the web team for the last couple of PyCon.DE conferences. Thank you for these details from the EPS' point of view. They are much appreciated :-) There have definitely been some friction points over the last couple of months but it seems to me like everything has become much more calm and quiet over the last month (at least from what I can gather by not noticing all that my burner roofs anymore ;-)). I just wanted to contribute a little bit to the whole software topic since some of the statements issues here might be interpreted in a wrong way: The point about the software being used for EP2014 indicates that this software is completely new, which isn't true. It has been used and updated over the last couple of years for the PyCon.DE conference series. It definitely needed and still needs a lot of work to use it for a EuroPython conference, but I'm certain that this would be the case for any software in preparation for a new conference year. We had some issues with previous year's software which were discussed in other mail exchanges between the EPS and the local organizer group, so I don't really want to reiterate them here. That being said, I totally agree that there should be a software component to the conference package as handed out by the EPS and it would help if you could reuse that explicit knowledge from previous years. The problem with the current approach (speaking totally for myself here and not as part of an organization or group) is, though, that such a software should not be written as part of the preparation for a specific event. The timeframe there is usually far to tight to create anything that might be usable for anything but the local team. We saw some of this in the previous year's software as we see it in this year's. Me having worked on this software for the last 2 years definitely helps here when it comes to adapting it to the EP format which probably was one of the reasons why we eventually decided to go with the PyCon.DE software. That being a flatout refusal is slightly exaggerated. We thought quite long and hard about it and most of use at least skimmed over the code to see how easy it would be to adapt to what we had in mind. But as said before, this has already been discussed in a more appropriate forum. So my proposal would be to create some kind ... let's call it a task force (that sounds exciting ;-)) with volunteers from as many previous EP conferences to come up with a set of requirements and ideally also a base-implementation that can then really be used by local organizers :-) From my perspective (and speaking only for myself here) the requirement to use the previous software at this point is unrealistic if there are alternatives the local group has more local knowledge with. If you've read all the way down to this point: Thank you very much :-) -- Horst On 31 Jan 2014, at 19:34, Jacob Hallén wrote: I am writing this from the sidelines, since I am not actively participating in the EPS board work, though I am formally treasurer for the EPS. This has given me access to what is going on, but I don't have a deep emotional involvement in the ongoing discussions and negotiations. I'm still writing tis in we form, since I feel a responsibility for the future of EuroPython. I have been involved in the setup of all new locations for EuroPython and this is the first time we have run into real difficulties in the collaboration with the local organization. In the Call for Participation that was the basis for the selection of a new site for Europython, there was a requirement for the cost of attendance. It turns out that the promised figures from the Berlin team can't be met and that cost of attendance will take a serious jump, compared to Florence. This is a serious problem for the EPS, because our explicit goal is to arrange a really affordable conference. We are now looking at conference fees that are 5 times higher than the ones for Göteborg and it is starting to hurt. Worries about getting enough participants and getting a reasonable mix of people has gotten the EPS board more involved in pricing issues than they would like to be. This is not only a concern for the conference this year, but for future conferences. A large number of the attendees have come to EuroPython for many years. If they are scared off by the price this year, they are less likely to come back in the future. This may be the first EuroPython where I won't be able to afford going. There was another requirement in the CfP, for the local organization to use the conference system that was used and developed by the people in Florence. As Paul Boddie correctly guessed, this is a way for the EPS to enable future local organizers to work with exiting tools, instead of having to
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
I have to correct the 2013 prices: 165/315/370. Still the prices of the EP 2014 are in a range that make this conference affordable and reasonably priced. Comparable conferences - often run only for two or three day - are more expensive. Regards Andreas Jung - Sorry for being brief - sent from a mobile device. Am 31.01.2014 um 20:04 schrieb Andreas Jung li...@zopyx.com: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jacob Hallén wrote: In the Call for Participation that was the basis for the selection of a new site for Europython, there was a requirement for the cost of attendance. It turns out that the promised figures from the Berlin team can't be met and that cost of attendance will take a serious jump, compared to Florence. This is a serious problem for the EPS, because our explicit goal is to arrange a really affordable conference. We are now looking at conference fees that are 5 times higher than the ones for Göteborg and it is starting to hurt. Worries about getting enough participants and getting a reasonable mix of people has gotten the EPS board more involved in pricing issues than they would like to be. This is not only a concern for the conference this year, but for future conferences. A large number of the attendees have come to EuroPython for many years. If they are scared off by the price this year, they are less likely to come back in the future. With respect but this is FUD. The standard ticket price for EP 2013 were for Student/Individual/Business: 330 ? / 500 ? / 620 ? The standard EP 2014 rates are for Student/Individual/Business: 200 ? / 400 ? / 600 ? Keep in mind that all EP 2014 tickets are all-inclusive (social event, catering during the sprints etc.) Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS6/PIAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjLcELwM0a9Fe4fLkA+mULWdLfKvP9 HHHLVH99/hs/Pe4ZHAmcUF2rc6T3lyLdAC/XK3EzTl+ppEGdbXlab+oPrN6VfjHv GnUVvt7TKYfCI4cw9FkgqF1wXrqdcRVT0MXu1fecKUxKst+zQ54XaI+wY8MGhDww dC1KA5YTYZODSO3l+WFxpMblxSTeyegutSaPV7XdoxxSq5bhLhnEEj6Ev9uAxql9 Dg87vOpTWe6DU/g/0A3tsaJCduwvOVwYyHBPBPuOYts7zYrVv0QYDdNXi7Jw8Gl4 HVFd2Xb4IBPWYpeUmL1QeFj+o652aE0kIpNAIxHVi856HhyCKwBGqzpqRo/5YOcI C9K6kg6kacINgiwsNSulm2sa0JLM/AsiWMd5ZFgqnaJAi3mpRcaN+dZ00zMPuvax Bhmv3ea1FJubFfu9XQWYJug4R7yEs8zwd9IDikSaQb94v68rDqZ+61SZ2W+Mk+eQ V+P0egepnsnqRp9dnuRAFN9J7gySQmA= =yuc7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- lists.vcf ___ EuroPython 2014 – Berlin, 21th–27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
Re: [Europython-improve] [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hi Marc-André, this call comes as a little surprise to me. To my knowledge after EuroPython 2013 in Florence there was a call for proposals for 2014 and 2015, following a rule saying that it would be wise to reuse locally accumulated knowledge at least once. Berlin volunteered to organized these two and the EPS accepted. Right? I'd much appreciate if you could elaborate on how the fact of posting your call can be considered an improvement in the EuroPython conference series, especially since the event in 2014 hasn't even happened, yet? As an aside, I'm much in favor of improving things, including the EuroPython conference series. Everything can be improved, for ever. But after reading a bit on europython-society.org I must say I'm finding the amount of helpful information or tools on how to organize an EuroPython conference rather underwhelming. Instead there is much text about the EPS bylaws, board, members and a general assembly. Not enough though, to understand e.g. how the board approves membership applications. I've been to at least five EuroPython conferences, but I can't remember having given my vote to anybody in the EPS board. True, I'm not an EPS member, the same holds for thousands of others. BTW, how many members does the EPS have? europython-society.org doesn't tell, or I couldn't find the figure. Does it have enough to speak for the entire community? A final remark, just weeks ago I briefly thought about becoming an EPS member without quite knowing the implications. I've changed my mind again, now, because I've seen too many organizations with members obsessed by themselves and the letters of their own rules rather than by their real subject. I'm glad I've missed that trap, so I can actually contribute something to a successful conference. Which is not to say that the EPS doesn't make a useful job, it's just maybe not always too obvious, at least for me. Regards, Dinu PS: BTW, I'm making a wild guess here, but the EuroPython list signature just maybe should rather read 21th-27th July instead of 21th27th July. M.-A. Lemburg: [Please help spread the word by forwarding to other relevant mailing lists, user groups, etc.; thanks :-)] The EuroPython Society (EPS) has started work on preparing the Call for Participation (CFP) for organizing the EuroPython 2015 conference: http://www.europython-society.org/ For 2015, we are setting up a new structure for the conference organization, which is focused on local and distributed work groups that are closely integrated with the EuroPython Society. We hope to greatly reduce the work load for the local teams, attract community members that want to get involved and to streamline the whole process of transitioning from one location to the next, making the conference organization a lot easier for everyone. If you are interested in potentially signing up as local team or participating in the work groups, please subscribe to one of our communication channels: * Tumblr http://www.tumblr.com/follow/europythonsociety * RSS http://www.europython-society.org/rss * Twitter https://twitter.com/europythons * EuroPython Mailing List https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython We are aiming for end of February as announcement date for the CFP 2015. Enjoy, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list europyt...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ Europython-improve mailing list Europython-improve@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython-improve
Re: [Europython-improve] [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hi Dinu, as we mentioned in the email: we've *started work* on the call for participation. We'll have more information available when we announce the call :-) A lot of work still needs to be done, since we're aiming for a new model of organizing EuroPython conferences. Please have some patience. Cheers, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ Europython-improve mailing list Europython-improve@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython-improve
Re: [Europython-improve] [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Jasper Paterson jasper.pater...@welovesalt.com wrote: Please remove me from this mailing list. You *can* do this yourself: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython Have a look towards the bottom of the page about unsubscribing. I don't run the list or otherwise have any control or otherwise, but I just thought it might be useful for you to know. Best, Alex. I would argue that it should read '21st-27th July' not '21th-27th July' Jasper Paterson Python Specialist Consultant 9 Wootton Street, London, SE1 8TG // 020 7928 2525 // 07551 157 389 // www.welovesalt.com Salt helps clients find exceptional talent to enable their digital transformation. If a client engages any candidate, standard Salt terms will apply, a copy of which can be found here: http://www.welovesalt.com/terms-and-conditions. Registered Office: Panel House, Park Street, Guildford, GU1 4HN. Registered In England Wales No. 06912620 Think green. Consider the environment before printing this email or its attachment(s) -Original Message- From: EuroPython [mailto:europython-bounces+jasper.paterson= welovesalt@python.org] On Behalf Of Dinu Gherman Sent: 31 January 2014 10:10 To: M.-A. Lemburg Cc: EuroPython Mailing List; europython-improve Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started Hi Marc-André, this call comes as a little surprise to me. To my knowledge after EuroPython 2013 in Florence there was a call for proposals for 2014 and 2015, following a rule saying that it would be wise to reuse locally accumulated knowledge at least once. Berlin volunteered to organized these two and the EPS accepted. Right? I'd much appreciate if you could elaborate on how the fact of posting your call can be considered an improvement in the EuroPython conference series, especially since the event in 2014 hasn't even happened, yet? As an aside, I'm much in favor of improving things, including the EuroPython conference series. Everything can be improved, for ever. But after reading a bit on europython-society.org I must say I'm finding the amount of helpful information or tools on how to organize an EuroPython conference rather underwhelming. Instead there is much text about the EPS bylaws, board, members and a general assembly. Not enough though, to understand e.g. how the board approves membership applications. I've been to at least five EuroPython conferences, but I can't remember having given my vote to anybody in the EPS board. True, I'm not an EPS member, the same holds for thousands of others. BTW, how many members does the EPS have? europython-society.org doesn't tell, or I couldn't find the figure. Does it have enough to speak for the entire community? A final remark, just weeks ago I briefly thought about becoming an EPS member without quite knowing the implications. I've changed my mind again, now, because I've seen too many organizations with members obsessed by themselves and the letters of their own rules rather than by their real subject. I'm glad I've missed that trap, so I can actually contribute something to a successful conference. Which is not to say that the EPS doesn't make a useful job, it's just maybe not always too obvious, at least for me. Regards, Dinu PS: BTW, I'm making a wild guess here, but the EuroPython list signature just maybe should rather read 21th-27th July instead of 21th27th July. M.-A. Lemburg: [Please help spread the word by forwarding to other relevant mailing lists, user groups, etc.; thanks :-)] The EuroPython Society (EPS) has started work on preparing the Call for Participation (CFP) for organizing the EuroPython 2015 conference: http://www.europython-society.org/ For 2015, we are setting up a new structure for the conference organization, which is focused on local and distributed work groups that are closely integrated with the EuroPython Society. We hope to greatly reduce the work load for the local teams, attract community members that want to get involved and to streamline the whole process of transitioning from one location to the next, making the conference organization a lot easier for everyone. If you are interested in potentially signing up as local team or participating in the work groups, please subscribe to one of our communication channels: * Tumblr http://www.tumblr.com/follow/europythonsociety * RSS http://www.europython-society.org/rss * Twitter https://twitter.com/europythons * EuroPython Mailing List https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython We are aiming for end of February as announcement date for the CFP 2015. Enjoy, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list
Re: [Europython-improve] [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Please remove me from this mailing list. I would argue that it should read '21st-27th July' not '21th-27th July' Jasper Paterson Python Specialist Consultant 9 Wootton Street, London, SE1 8TG // 020 7928 2525 // 07551 157 389 // www.welovesalt.com Salt helps clients find exceptional talent to enable their digital transformation. If a client engages any candidate, standard Salt terms will apply, a copy of which can be found here: http://www.welovesalt.com/terms-and-conditions. Registered Office: Panel House, Park Street, Guildford, GU1 4HN. Registered In England Wales No. 06912620 Think green. Consider the environment before printing this email or its attachment(s) -Original Message- From: EuroPython [mailto:europython-bounces+jasper.paterson=welovesalt@python.org] On Behalf Of Dinu Gherman Sent: 31 January 2014 10:10 To: M.-A. Lemburg Cc: EuroPython Mailing List; europython-improve Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started Hi Marc-André, this call comes as a little surprise to me. To my knowledge after EuroPython 2013 in Florence there was a call for proposals for 2014 and 2015, following a rule saying that it would be wise to reuse locally accumulated knowledge at least once. Berlin volunteered to organized these two and the EPS accepted. Right? I'd much appreciate if you could elaborate on how the fact of posting your call can be considered an improvement in the EuroPython conference series, especially since the event in 2014 hasn't even happened, yet? As an aside, I'm much in favor of improving things, including the EuroPython conference series. Everything can be improved, for ever. But after reading a bit on europython-society.org I must say I'm finding the amount of helpful information or tools on how to organize an EuroPython conference rather underwhelming. Instead there is much text about the EPS bylaws, board, members and a general assembly. Not enough though, to understand e.g. how the board approves membership applications. I've been to at least five EuroPython conferences, but I can't remember having given my vote to anybody in the EPS board. True, I'm not an EPS member, the same holds for thousands of others. BTW, how many members does the EPS have? europython-society.org doesn't tell, or I couldn't find the figure. Does it have enough to speak for the entire community? A final remark, just weeks ago I briefly thought about becoming an EPS member without quite knowing the implications. I've changed my mind again, now, because I've seen too many organizations with members obsessed by themselves and the letters of their own rules rather than by their real subject. I'm glad I've missed that trap, so I can actually contribute something to a successful conference. Which is not to say that the EPS doesn't make a useful job, it's just maybe not always too obvious, at least for me. Regards, Dinu PS: BTW, I'm making a wild guess here, but the EuroPython list signature just maybe should rather read 21th-27th July instead of 21th27th July. M.-A. Lemburg: [Please help spread the word by forwarding to other relevant mailing lists, user groups, etc.; thanks :-)] The EuroPython Society (EPS) has started work on preparing the Call for Participation (CFP) for organizing the EuroPython 2015 conference: http://www.europython-society.org/ For 2015, we are setting up a new structure for the conference organization, which is focused on local and distributed work groups that are closely integrated with the EuroPython Society. We hope to greatly reduce the work load for the local teams, attract community members that want to get involved and to streamline the whole process of transitioning from one location to the next, making the conference organization a lot easier for everyone. If you are interested in potentially signing up as local team or participating in the work groups, please subscribe to one of our communication channels: * Tumblr http://www.tumblr.com/follow/europythonsociety * RSS http://www.europython-society.org/rss * Twitter https://twitter.com/europythons * EuroPython Mailing List https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython We are aiming for end of February as announcement date for the CFP 2015. Enjoy, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list europyt...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list europyt...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ___ Europython-improve mailing list Europython-improve@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started
Hi, not being part of the organizing team of EP 2014 but noticing how the EuroPython society works: I’d rather recommend everyone who thinks about organizing anything to stay miles away from the EPS for your own sanity. If anyone thinks about participating I’d recommend contacting the organizing team for Berlin 2014 (which was publicly given the task of organizing 2015, too AFAICT). Christian On 30. Jan2014, at 11:29, M.-A. Lemburg m...@europython.eu wrote: [Please help spread the word by forwarding to other relevant mailing lists, user groups, etc.; thanks :-)] The EuroPython Society (EPS) has started work on preparing the Call for Participation (CFP) for organizing the EuroPython 2015 conference: http://www.europython-society.org/ For 2015, we are setting up a new structure for the conference organization, which is focused on local and distributed work groups that are closely integrated with the EuroPython Society. We hope to greatly reduce the work load for the local teams, attract community members that want to get involved and to streamline the whole process of transitioning from one location to the next, making the conference organization a lot easier for everyone. If you are interested in potentially signing up as local team or participating in the work groups, please subscribe to one of our communication channels: * Tumblr http://www.tumblr.com/follow/europythonsociety * RSS http://www.europython-society.org/rss * Twitter https://twitter.com/europythons * EuroPython Mailing List https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython We are aiming for end of February as announcement date for the CFP 2015. Enjoy, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython -- Christian Theune · gocept gmbh co. kg flyingcircus.io · operations as a service Forsterstraße 29 · 06112 Halle (Saale) · Tel +49 345 1229889-7 signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
