Re: [EVDL] HPEVS selling in Russia, tacky.
Agree it is off-topic and must go to a different list not the EVDL. Just want to point out that almost 200 of the 298 passengers were (fellow) Dutchmen because the plane made a trip from Amsterdam to Malaysia. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 6:46 PM To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] HPEVS selling in Russia, tacky. You probably didn't loose any friends or relatives on the downing of the Malayan airlines by Putin backed terrorists... Can we please take this to some other forum? It is certainly off-topic, and of little interest to those of us who live outside the US. If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error. -- John Kenneth Galbraith Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] To Noalox, or Not to Noalox (was: Lithium battery setpoints...)
Thanks for the level-headed reply Bill. You described three functions - grease excluding moisture, zinc as a sacrificial anode, and somehow removing aluminum oxide by sanding. Here on this list I have been persuaded that the grease excluding moisture is likely a good idea. Pick one that won't dry or bake out. I can't for the life of me figure out why a highly resistive dielectric grease (mentioned by others) is a better choice than a conductive grease...noalox is essentially a conductive grease given the Zn content. If you really do exclude the moisture then the zinc would be redundant, seems like. With aluminum, you just cannot expose bare un-oxidixed metal, it is not possible to do this, so I am not happy with the sanding idea. The sanding has to be helpful on some other basis if it is indeed helpful. Be interesting if someone has compared greased un-sanded to greased and sanded. I suppose if you used really fine grit paper you might actually improve intimate mechanical contact, but I have my doubts. I admit I have not yet used any cells with aluminum terminals. One pack has all the cells welded to stainless steel strips, the other are what look like stainless or nickel plated something, stamped and formed with a tapped holes (38120 size cells). I have a group of used Thundersky cells, but I have not used them yet. On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Here is an article describing how to make aluminum to copper connections, and when to use (and when not to use) oxide inhibiting paste: http://www.stabiloy.com/NR/rdonlyres/AD9F20D3-FA28-4662- A013-A154C569435C/0/AluminumBuildingWireInstallationandTerminations.pdf The cell manufacturer gives no guidance as to the use of oxide inhibiting paste, so one must try it both ways. I tried it without Noalox, and then with Noalox. I have installed cells without the light sanding and paste, and the connections were unsatisfactory. They got quite hot. The car performed poorly and had limited range. The cells would not balance well. I then performed the lightly sand and apply Noalox procedure, and did nothing else, and all those issues vanished. No additional torque. No added or removed components. No change whatsoever than to lightly sand and to add Noalox. Some time later, a friend had identical issues with his conversion, and I recommended the same treatment. He performed the lightly sand and Noalox procedure, and it cured his issues in the identical manner as it had cured mine. I now routinely use Noalox and I have not had any high resistance connections. The Noalox prevents galvanic corrosion between the dissimilar metals in the terminal by excluding moisture. Additionally, it has zinc particles that provide a sacrificial anode, further guarding against corrosion between the copper, aluminum, and the stainless steel bolt. In theory, this is what one does to prevent galvanic corrosion. It also appears to work in practice as well. I have actually done the experiment, and the results agree with theory. If anyone else has performed a similar experiment and had contradictory results, then I would enjoy hearing about it. Bill D. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/dc0ba8a0/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Ben, A Ghia EV using lithium batteries and some aero, drag reduction can go 240 miles or so on a Leaf battery pack. Pervious ones done this way used about 100wthrs/mile on lead batteries. Or one of the many kitcars, at least the more aero ones. Dead ICE ones can be had cheap and easily converted. You are on the right path as EV's cost what they weigh. A much lighter aero car takes a much smaller battery pack, motor, controller, etc for the same performance. Or 100 mile battery range and an 8kw range extender I'm doing one that only weighs 45lbs gives unlimited range on gasoline, E-85, Methanol, etc using hot-rodded racing go cart motors readily available for those fuels. Jerry Dycus On Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:27 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Jul 26, 2014, at 7:45 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Just one more time, Ben. Do you really need to keep the ICE? Especially with an old car like that - no computer, nothing electronic what so ever, think how easy and simple your configuration would be if electric only. I still haven't bought the car. If I'm going to do a pure BEV conversion, this wouldn't be the car I'd do it with; instead, I'd get a Ghia or the like. But a pure BEV car has the range problem, which is exacerbated in my case by the spread-out nature of the Phoenix metro area plus our summer heat...a car with a nominal 100 mile range is going to be stressful to drive somewhere 30 miles away on a typical day like today with a 110F forecasted high. Going somewhere 30 miles away and deciding on the fly to make a stop another 10 miles out of the way on the way home isn't going to happen. The idea with the Mustang is to get something not unlike the Volt. A couple dozen pure electric miles would cover most of my driving, and a plugin hybrid range aggressive on the electric (presumably resulting in fuel economy rivaling that of an econobox when in that mode) would cover everything else except for trips -- plus it should be great for trips. And it should wind up having all sorts of performance. So...if this car, yes, the ICE stays; if the ICE goes, not this car. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140726/fa809afe/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/6f797dff/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] To Noalox, or Not to Noalox (was: Lithium battery setpoints...)
That is the theory and it seems to be confirmed by two experiments. When the cells arrive, the terminals are often noticeably covered with corrosion. Perhaps this corrosion is due to prolonged exposure to the sea environment during shipment, or to corrosive chemicals used during manufacture. It seems only prudent to remove it. Light sanding seems to be a simple and effective method to remove the bulk of that obvious corrosion. Since that initial experiment and subsequent success with Noalox, I have built a number of packs and I have not had any more trouble with high resistance connections whatsoever. It may not be necessary in every case, but it is not much trouble to lightly sand and apply Noalox, and it does not appear to be any detriment. Bill D. At 11:11 AM 7/31/2014, Lawrence Harris wrote: Remember that in almost any connection there is always an oxide layer. The purpose of the sanding is to remove enough of this so that a reasonable pressure between the wire/strap and the connection can break through this layer and form a gas tight connection. The grease is just there to keep moisture out, fill any small gaps and prevent surface corrosion. The the added zinc will likely take up any remaining oxygen and further prevent corrosion for a time, as far as I know it does not contribute to the conductivity of the connection. Lawrence Harris ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] To Noalox, or Not to Noalox (was: Lithium battery setpoints...)
My take on this is that the zinc is redundant. I use petroleum jelly. Certainly not a conductor. At a microscopic level each metal surface in the joint has pronounced peaks and valleys. Only the peaks touch. The grease, being a fluid, displaces to fill the voids and the many localized pressure points ensure good metal-to-metal contact. I've been doing this for years and never had even a warm contact. Chris On Jul 31, 2014 11:20 AM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Here is an article describing how to make aluminum to copper connections, and when to use (and when not to use) oxide inhibiting paste: http://www.stabiloy.com/NR/rdonlyres/AD9F20D3-FA28-4662- A013-A154C569435C/0/AluminumBuildingWireInstallationandTerminations.pdf The cell manufacturer gives no guidance as to the use of oxide inhibiting paste, so one must try it both ways. I tried it without Noalox, and then with Noalox. I have installed cells without the light sanding and paste, and the connections were unsatisfactory. They got quite hot. The car performed poorly and had limited range. The cells would not balance well. I then performed the lightly sand and apply Noalox procedure, and did nothing else, and all those issues vanished. No additional torque. No added or removed components. No change whatsoever than to lightly sand and to add Noalox. Some time later, a friend had identical issues with his conversion, and I recommended the same treatment. He performed the lightly sand and Noalox procedure, and it cured his issues in the identical manner as it had cured mine. I now routinely use Noalox and I have not had any high resistance connections. The Noalox prevents galvanic corrosion between the dissimilar metals in the terminal by excluding moisture. Additionally, it has zinc particles that provide a sacrificial anode, further guarding against corrosion between the copper, aluminum, and the stainless steel bolt. In theory, this is what one does to prevent galvanic corrosion. It also appears to work in practice as well. I have actually done the experiment, and the results agree with theory. If anyone else has performed a similar experiment and had contradictory results, then I would enjoy hearing about it. Bill D. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/93f581ec/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
We were hiking in England last week, and I saw a 2004 Smart Roadster. Beautiful car. Gets close to 50 mpg. I thought, when I get home, that's going to be my next conversion. But my dreams were dashed: the car isn't legal for US streets. I even contacted some Registered Importers and the DOT itself, but alas it's a no-go. I saw a couple people in Europe who have done them. So if anyone on the list from Great Britain, Europe, Australia or Mexico ever converts one, at least I could salivate over yours. Bill -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of jerry freedomev via EV Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 11:03 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? Ben, A Ghia EV using lithium batteries and some aero, drag reduction can go 240 miles or so on a Leaf battery pack. Pervious ones done this way used about 100wthrs/mile on lead batteries. Or one of the many kitcars, at least the more aero ones. Dead ICE ones can be had cheap and easily converted. You are on the right path as EV's cost what they weigh. A much lighter aero car takes a much smaller battery pack, motor, controller, etc for the same performance. Or 100 mile battery range and an 8kw range extender I'm doing one that only weighs 45lbs gives unlimited range on gasoline, E-85, Methanol, etc using hot-rodded racing go cart motors readily available for those fuels. Jerry Dycus On Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:27 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Jul 26, 2014, at 7:45 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Just one more time, Ben. Do you really need to keep the ICE? Especially with an old car like that - no computer, nothing electronic what so ever, think how easy and simple your configuration would be if electric only. I still haven't bought the car. If I'm going to do a pure BEV conversion, this wouldn't be the car I'd do it with; instead, I'd get a Ghia or the like. But a pure BEV car has the range problem, which is exacerbated in my case by the spread-out nature of the Phoenix metro area plus our summer heat...a car with a nominal 100 mile range is going to be stressful to drive somewhere 30 miles away on a typical day like today with a 110F forecasted high. Going somewhere 30 miles away and deciding on the fly to make a stop another 10 miles out of the way on the way home isn't going to happen. The idea with the Mustang is to get something not unlike the Volt. A couple dozen pure electric miles would cover most of my driving, and a plugin hybrid range aggressive on the electric (presumably resulting in fuel economy rivaling that of an econobox when in that mode) would cover everything else except for trips -- plus it should be great for trips. And it should wind up having all sorts of performance. So...if this car, yes, the ICE stays; if the ICE goes, not this car. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140726/fa809afe /attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/6f797dff /attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium battery setpoints...
Michael Ross wrote: In air, aluminum oxide forms nearly instantly. Therefore, sanding is a useless activity, if the goal is to remove aluminum oxide... You're right; aluminum oxide forms very quickly. However, the longer it is exposed to air, the thicker the insulating layer gets. So cleaning the terminal to remove the oxide immediately before assembly minimizes the thickness, and thus *does* reduce the resistance. Very thin insulating layers behave strangely. First, the very thin oxide layer is porous; it has lots of holes. Like spray painting something; before you have enough paint to completely cover, you can still see the underlying surface through the holes. With enough contact pressure, the metal can deform in to fill these holes to make contact anyway. Electrons can also tunnel across very small gaps even when there is an insulator in the way. The contact resistance doesn't go from 0 to infinite as soon as there is a tiny layer of some insulator; it gradually rises as the layer gets thicker. I don't like the idea of sanding terminals. You want then to have the flat machined surface they have leaving the factory o get a good bolted joint with as much contact area as possible... What you think is a flat machined surface is actually a mountain range under a microscope. Machining, sanding, polishing etc. just reduces the scale of the mountains. When the two surfaces touch, only the peaks actually make contact. Increasing the contact pressure makes the metal deform, flattening the peaks, and improving the contact area. The deformations also break any oxide layer that may have formed, if it's thin enough and weak enough. (Aluminum oxide is a tough one, because it grows strong and thick). If you're bolting together steel, the contact pressures needed to deform it are tremendous. But lead, copper, silver, gold, and aluminum are all very soft metals -- it takes a lot less contact pressure to make them deform to improve the contact. I suppose one might prove whether the resistance is changed for the better if you have a really good instrument to check it. But this will not be your garden variety multi-meter. It's pretty easy to measure what's happening yourself. The test is not difficult. I would urge people to try it themselves. It's especially enlightening with hard-to-connect metals like aluminum. You need a digital multimeter with a millivolt scale (usually 200mv or 400mv full-scale). And, you need a source of a known DC current of an amp or more. A 10-amp battery charger with a ammeter will do. Let's say you want to measure the resistance of the connections to a 12v battery: Run the battery down, so it will actually charge at 10 amps. Connect the charger at a point somewhat away from the battery, so the will be current is flowing in the wires and terminals you want to check. Set your meter to its millivolt scale. Connect one lead to the post of the battery itself. Connect the other lead to the terminal that connects to this post. Read the millivolt drop of the terminal, and the charging current from the charger. Use Ohm's law to calculate the resistance. For example: R = V / I = 10 millivolts / 10 amps = 1 milliohm (0.001 ohms) Under normal circumstances, 0.001 ohm would be a good connection. But it's a *bad* connection in an EV traction pack! At 100 amps, it would have a 1 volt drop, and so produce 100 watts of heat! Chinese lithiums I've tested straight from the factory are this bad, and sometimes worse! If you don't believe that cleaning, bolting, and contact greases help, try an experiment. 1. Get two pieces of aluminum that's been sitting around a long time. Bolt them together. Measure the torque if you can; if not, use a socket wrench and apply a know force. Measure the resistance between them (as described above). Notice that the tighter the bolt, the lower the resistance (to a point; then it doesn't matter any more). 2. Take them apart. Clean the two surfaces with sandpaper, file, wire wheel, etc. Clean off any resulting dust. Bolt them together again, and measure the resistance again at several different bolt torques. You will find that the resistance is lower, at every bolt torque (though it still reaches a point where more torque doesn't reduce resistance). 3. Add any kind of contact grease. Noalox, axle grease, vaseline, etc. Repeat the test. You will find no difference in resistance, with or without the grease, no matter which one you use. But... leave the bolted pieces of aluminum outdoors for a while, where they will get hot/cold/wet/dirty etc. Without the grease, the contact resistance will go up. With the grease, it will stay about the same. This is a complex subject. I hope I have not oversimplified it too much. The experts already know it, and can ignore my analogies. But I hope those with only a little knowledge may gain some understanding. And, I
Re: [EVDL] Lithium battery setpoints...
. Measure the resistance between them (as described above). Notice that the tighter the bolt, the lower the resistance (to a point; then it doesn't matter any more). 2. Take them apart. Clean the two surfaces with sandpaper, file, wire wheel, etc. Clean off any resulting dust. Bolt them together again, and measure the resistance again at several different bolt torques. You will find that the resistance is lower, at every bolt torque (though it still reaches a point where more torque doesn't reduce resistance). 3. Add any kind of contact grease. Noalox, axle grease, vaseline, etc. Repeat the test. You will find no difference in resistance, with or without the grease, no matter which one you use. But... leave the bolted pieces of aluminum outdoors for a while, where they will get hot/cold/wet/dirty etc. Without the grease, the contact resistance will go up. With the grease, it will stay about the same. This is a complex subject. I hope I have not oversimplified it too much. The experts already know it, and can ignore my analogies. But I hope those with only a little knowledge may gain some understanding. And, I hope people will *measure it for themselves*. That's far better than listening to experts debating how many electrons can dance on the head of a pin. :-) -- The definition of research: Shoot the arrow first, and paint the target around where it lands. -- David Van Baak -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/c1a29cad/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Thanks, Jerry. A 200+ mile BEV Ghia certainly sounds like a fantastic car...and, had fate played out differently, that would have been the route I'd have gone. But I went ahead and bought the Mustang the day before yesterday. Turns out it's not merely a 1964 1/2 Mustang, but that it came off the assembly line a mere nine days (seven business days) after the very first Mustang ever, on March 18, 1964. So...I expect the hybrid conversion to be challenging, and I'm expecting not much more than a tenth the all-electric miles of that hypothetical Ghia. But...well, as much fun as a BEV Ghia would unquestionably be, I'm thinking a second-week-of-production Mustang hybrid is going to be at least as much fun, if not more. And I'll still be driving the significant majority of my miles from solar power off the roof. Now, I just have to figure out how to put it all together...but I've got time for that. The car needs a bit of engine and body work, first. Not much, but enough to give me plenty of time to do lots more research. b On Jul 31, 2014, at 10:03 AM, jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ben, A Ghia EV using lithium batteries and some aero, drag reduction can go 240 miles or so on a Leaf battery pack. Pervious ones done this way used about 100wthrs/mile on lead batteries. Or one of the many kitcars, at least the more aero ones. Dead ICE ones can be had cheap and easily converted. You are on the right path as EV's cost what they weigh. A much lighter aero car takes a much smaller battery pack, motor, controller, etc for the same performance. Or 100 mile battery range and an 8kw range extender I'm doing one that only weighs 45lbs gives unlimited range on gasoline, E-85, Methanol, etc using hot-rodded racing go cart motors readily available for those fuels. Jerry Dycus On Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:27 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Jul 26, 2014, at 7:45 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Just one more time, Ben. Do you really need to keep the ICE? Especially with an old car like that - no computer, nothing electronic what so ever, think how easy and simple your configuration would be if electric only. I still haven't bought the car. If I'm going to do a pure BEV conversion, this wouldn't be the car I'd do it with; instead, I'd get a Ghia or the like. But a pure BEV car has the range problem, which is exacerbated in my case by the spread-out nature of the Phoenix metro area plus our summer heat...a car with a nominal 100 mile range is going to be stressful to drive somewhere 30 miles away on a typical day like today with a 110F forecasted high. Going somewhere 30 miles away and deciding on the fly to make a stop another 10 miles out of the way on the way home isn't going to happen. The idea with the Mustang is to get something not unlike the Volt. A couple dozen pure electric miles would cover most of my driving, and a plugin hybrid range aggressive on the electric (presumably resulting in fuel economy rivaling that of an econobox when in that mode) would cover everything else except for trips -- plus it should be great for trips. And it should wind up having all sorts of performance. So...if this car, yes, the ICE stays; if the ICE goes, not this car. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140726/fa809afe/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/6f797dff/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/90670521/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] To Noalox, or Not to Noalox
Michael Ross via EV wrote: I can't for the life of me figure out why a highly resistive dielectric grease (mentioned by others) is a better choice than a conductive grease... The grease is only filling the gaps (asperities) between the two metals. There is no grease at the contact points -- it's squeezed out by the high pressure. noalox is essentially a conductive grease given the Zn content. Marketeers make a big deal about how conductive their grease is (sticking the probes of a multimeter into it, etc.) That just marketing BS. The conductive grease is still many orders of magnitude less conductive than the metals. Its conductivity is meanigless compared to the metal-to-metal contact. If you really do exclude the moisture then the zinc would be redundant, seems like. Like Bill says, the zinc particles are supposed to act as a sacrificial anode (corrode first) in case water does manage to get into the joint. With aluminum, you just cannot expose bare un-oxidixed metal, it is not possible to do this I agree. But you can reduce the thickness of this coating so it is effectively gone. Be interesting if someone has compared greased un-sanded to greased and sanded. I've done so, and so has Bill Dube' -- probably others. I agree completely with Bill; sanding and noalox (or just about any grease) works. I suppose if you used really fine grit paper you might actually improve intimate mechanical contact, but I have my doubts. Well, I'm not talking about heavy sanding that removes any noticeable amount of metal. I'm just polishing the surface, to remove the dull finish and make it look shiny. I admit I have not yet used any cells with aluminum terminals... I have a group of used Thundersky cells, but I have not used them yet. That will be a good test case. I find it depressing to see how badly designed the terminals are on these cells. My first reaction was what idiot would use aluminum for high-current connections in a high harsh automotive environment? Besides the aluminum itself, the other issue to address is the screw or both. Threads in aluminum tend to stick, gall, or seize. You get erroneous torque readings, and can even tear out the threads without ever achieving enough contact pressure. The grease helps here, too. And, they tend to use any old thing for the interconnects between cells. You wind up with a mish-mash of incompatible metals. Aluminum terminal with a steel screw, holding a copper strap that may or may not be tin plated, etc. The cells themselves provide the voltage to enhance corrosion. Put them in a car where they get wet or dirty, and you have a wonderful environment for corrosion! -- The definition of research: Shoot the arrow first, and paint the target around where it lands. -- David Van Baak -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] To Noalox, or Not to Noalox
At 01:41 PM 7/31/2014, Lee Hart via EV wrote: I find it depressing to see how badly designed the terminals are on these cells. My first reaction was what idiot would use aluminum for high-current connections in a high harsh automotive environment? I agree totally. However, you get what you pay for. They are _astoundingly_ cheap for the capacity you get. If they put some nifty corrosion-resistant plating on them, or made them from a better material, they would cost slightly more and folks would buy a different brand. Bill D. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Ben Goren via EV wrote: Thanks, Jerry. A 200+ mile BEV Ghia certainly sounds like a fantastic car... The Ghia happened to have several attractive attributes for an EV. It was very light, it was reasonable aerodynamics, and enough room for batteries. John Bryan's Ghia was one example. He carefully measured the efficiency of his Ghia, and got it under 100 watthours/mile. That's good enough for a 100-mile range even on lead-acid batteries. The only cars that do better are things like James Worden's Sunrise, which was built as an EV from the ground up, and got as low as 60 watthours per mile. But I went ahead and bought the Mustang the day before yesterday. The Mustang is still a pretty good candidate. It's still a small light car, and the aerodynamics aren't too terrible. Plus, it's a classic car that many can appreciate! I believe John Wayland converted one for someone. He's a genius at building beautiful high-performance conversions -- have you contacted him for details? I'm expecting not much more than a tenth the all-electric miles A low range expectation makes your job a lot easier. I've been reading this thread while on vacation, and you have received a lot of great advice. It must be confusing; but it's better to have too many choices rather than too few, though it may not seem that way at the time. :-) I'm interested as well, as I have a small Chevy pickup and have been thinking about exactly the same sort of conversion. I don't know much about what Netgain was doing in their solution. If you have contact information on it, let me know! Given their other products, I'm sure it was a DC brushed motor. This would be a cheaper approach, and would deliver far more torque for its size than AC. If their motor had interpoles or a sepex field, it could also have done regen as easily as an AC motor. I don't think your hybrid control problems will be nearly as difficult as you think. The Mustang just has a carburetor and simple throttle linkage. Add the EV controller's potbox to the accelerator linkage. Then add some kind of mechanical link that disconnects the throttle linkage from the carburetor when you switch to EV mode (so you're not pumping the gas and flooding the engine when it's not running). Then, provide a manual switch to select: - ICE mode: Carburetor linkage connected, EV controller off. - EV mode: Carburetor linkage disconnected, EV controller on. Shift to neutral so you're not forcing the ICE to rotate. - Hybrid: Bot enable at once. In hybrid mode, both the ICE and EV motor will naturally provide an amount of torque controlled by the accelerator pedal. They won't fight each other; their torques will just add. If you're in ICE mode and driving at some particular speed and accelerator pedal position and turn on hybrid mode, the EV motor will add torque, and you will speed up. But your natural response to lift the gas pedal slightly will correct for it. If the EV motor/controller has regen, you will get it just by letting up the gas pedal. You could also shift the transmission to neutral, so as much as possible of your braking is done by the EV motor. It won't matter for your car, but in a vehicle with power steering, power brakes, air conditioning, etc. one could also leave the ICE idling in EV mode (since the throttle linkage is disconnected). This way, the ICE powers all the accessories, using a minimal amount of gasoline, while you EV motor does all the driving. Thus, you can drive it manually with only a little finesse. It only gets complicated if you want a system that automatically starts and stops the ICE, and switches between modes based on some criteria. -- The definition of research: Shoot the arrow first, and paint the target around where it lands. -- David Van Baak -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
That Mustang is probably worth more than a new electric car in some parts of the world. Sell it and buy a car that would make a better electric with the money? http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/auction-748754922.htm -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV Sent: Friday, 1 August 2014 8:47 a.m. To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? Ben Goren via EV wrote: Thanks, Jerry. A 200+ mile BEV Ghia certainly sounds like a fantastic car... The Ghia happened to have several attractive attributes for an EV. It was very light, it was reasonable aerodynamics, and enough room for batteries. John Bryan's Ghia was one example. He carefully measured the efficiency of his Ghia, and got it under 100 watthours/mile. That's good enough for a 100-mile range even on lead-acid batteries. The only cars that do better are things like James Worden's Sunrise, which was built as an EV from the ground up, and got as low as 60 watthours per mile. But I went ahead and bought the Mustang the day before yesterday. The Mustang is still a pretty good candidate. It's still a small light car, and the aerodynamics aren't too terrible. Plus, it's a classic car that many can appreciate! I believe John Wayland converted one for someone. He's a genius at building beautiful high-performance conversions -- have you contacted him for details? I'm expecting not much more than a tenth the all-electric miles A low range expectation makes your job a lot easier. I've been reading this thread while on vacation, and you have received a lot of great advice. It must be confusing; but it's better to have too many choices rather than too few, though it may not seem that way at the time. :-) I'm interested as well, as I have a small Chevy pickup and have been thinking about exactly the same sort of conversion. I don't know much about what Netgain was doing in their solution. If you have contact information on it, let me know! Given their other products, I'm sure it was a DC brushed motor. This would be a cheaper approach, and would deliver far more torque for its size than AC. If their motor had interpoles or a sepex field, it could also have done regen as easily as an AC motor. I don't think your hybrid control problems will be nearly as difficult as you think. The Mustang just has a carburetor and simple throttle linkage. Add the EV controller's potbox to the accelerator linkage. Then add some kind of mechanical link that disconnects the throttle linkage from the carburetor when you switch to EV mode (so you're not pumping the gas and flooding the engine when it's not running). Then, provide a manual switch to select: - ICE mode: Carburetor linkage connected, EV controller off. - EV mode: Carburetor linkage disconnected, EV controller on. Shift to neutral so you're not forcing the ICE to rotate. - Hybrid: Bot enable at once. In hybrid mode, both the ICE and EV motor will naturally provide an amount of torque controlled by the accelerator pedal. They won't fight each other; their torques will just add. If you're in ICE mode and driving at some particular speed and accelerator pedal position and turn on hybrid mode, the EV motor will add torque, and you will speed up. But your natural response to lift the gas pedal slightly will correct for it. If the EV motor/controller has regen, you will get it just by letting up the gas pedal. You could also shift the transmission to neutral, so as much as possible of your braking is done by the EV motor. It won't matter for your car, but in a vehicle with power steering, power brakes, air conditioning, etc. one could also leave the ICE idling in EV mode (since the throttle linkage is disconnected). This way, the ICE powers all the accessories, using a minimal amount of gasoline, while you EV motor does all the driving. Thus, you can drive it manually with only a little finesse. It only gets complicated if you want a system that automatically starts and stops the ICE, and switches between modes based on some criteria. -- The definition of research: Shoot the arrow first, and paint the target around where it lands. -- David Van Baak -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: car bought
Hi Ben and All, With the Mustang such a low number with a V8? it's far better just to keep it original to retain it's future value. When the economy gets better it'll be very desirable. Fact is For the same money and less work you could buy, convert the Ghia and have both for the same money. And together they are likely worth 2x's as much for the same money as just the converted Mustang, which will lose collector value if you do. Jerry Dycus On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:01 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: What ever you do, it will be exicting! What a great collector's item, regardless. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 30-Jul-14 10:01:09 AM Subject: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: car bought So, I'm still not sure what exact route I'm going to go for hybridizing the car. I still like the idea of replacing most of the drive shaft with electric motors, but there's also Dennis's suggestion of a transfer case, and somebody else suggested possibly a transmission with a PTO and the electric motor connected to the PTO shaft. But I bought the car yesterday. Turns out, according to the door plate, the car was made on March 18, 1964. The first Mustang was made on March 9 Before electrifying the car, there's a fair bit of other stuff to do. I'm sure I'll bother y'all more when it gets that far along. In the mean time, thanks for all the advice you've given so far! b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140730/aa6fa28c/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/ec4a0926/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion
Hi MW. I think your post hits the EV vs FC issues square on the head. I am a lurker, mostly, and crave information about the future of personal transportation. When I talk with others about what's out there, I find it most useful to understand the difference between EV, FC and ICE. The efficency differences, the Government attitude (support) and perspective of businesses (big oil, auto industry, utility companies) all factor into the overall effect of why and what is happening. This Forum is my main source of unfiltered information. I do understand that the Forum's original participants are mostly folks who build Ev's and need to share ideas of how best to do that. I think I see more folks interested in the likes of Tesla and others bringing ev's to the masses (me!). Bottom line? I like it all and hope that the discussion continues to be broad based - including enough on FC to understand the differences. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVDL-biz-H2-and-FCEV-discussion-tp4670639p4670712.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] To Noalox, or Not to Noalox (was: Lithium battery setpoints...)
Remember that in almost any connection there is always an oxide layer. The purpose of the sanding is to remove enough of this so that a reasonable pressure between the wire/strap and the connection can break through this layer and form a gas tight connection. The grease is just there to keep moisture out, fill any small gaps and prevent surface corrosion. The the added zinc will likely take up any remaining oxygen and further prevent corrosion for a time, as far as I know it does not contribute to the conductivity of the connection. Lawrence Harris On Jul 31, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thanks for the level-headed reply Bill. You described three functions - grease excluding moisture, zinc as a sacrificial anode, and somehow removing aluminum oxide by sanding. Here on this list I have been persuaded that the grease excluding moisture is likely a good idea. Pick one that won't dry or bake out. I can't for the life of me figure out why a highly resistive dielectric grease (mentioned by others) is a better choice than a conductive grease...noalox is essentially a conductive grease given the Zn content. If you really do exclude the moisture then the zinc would be redundant, seems like. With aluminum, you just cannot expose bare un-oxidixed metal, it is not possible to do this, so I am not happy with the sanding idea. The sanding has to be helpful on some other basis if it is indeed helpful. Be interesting if someone has compared greased un-sanded to greased and sanded. I suppose if you used really fine grit paper you might actually improve intimate mechanical contact, but I have my doubts. I admit I have not yet used any cells with aluminum terminals. One pack has all the cells welded to stainless steel strips, the other are what look like stainless or nickel plated something, stamped and formed with a tapped holes (38120 size cells). I have a group of used Thundersky cells, but I have not used them yet. On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Here is an article describing how to make aluminum to copper connections, and when to use (and when not to use) oxide inhibiting paste: http://www.stabiloy.com/NR/rdonlyres/AD9F20D3-FA28-4662- A013-A154C569435C/0/AluminumBuildingWireInstallationandTerminations.pdf The cell manufacturer gives no guidance as to the use of oxide inhibiting paste, so one must try it both ways. I tried it without Noalox, and then with Noalox. I have installed cells without the light sanding and paste, and the connections were unsatisfactory. They got quite hot. The car performed poorly and had limited range. The cells would not balance well. I then performed the lightly sand and apply Noalox procedure, and did nothing else, and all those issues vanished. No additional torque. No added or removed components. No change whatsoever than to lightly sand and to add Noalox. Some time later, a friend had identical issues with his conversion, and I recommended the same treatment. He performed the lightly sand and Noalox procedure, and it cured his issues in the identical manner as it had cured mine. I now routinely use Noalox and I have not had any high resistance connections. The Noalox prevents galvanic corrosion between the dissimilar metals in the terminal by excluding moisture. Additionally, it has zinc particles that provide a sacrificial anode, further guarding against corrosion between the copper, aluminum, and the stainless steel bolt. In theory, this is what one does to prevent galvanic corrosion. It also appears to work in practice as well. I have actually done the experiment, and the results agree with theory. If anyone else has performed a similar experiment and had contradictory results, then I would enjoy hearing about it. Bill D. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/dc0ba8a0/attachment.htm
Re: [EVDL] Lithium battery setpoints...
, if it's thin enough and weak enough. (Aluminum oxide is a tough one, because it grows strong and thick). If you're bolting together steel, the contact pressures needed to deform it are tremendous. But lead, copper, silver, gold, and aluminum are all very soft metals -- it takes a lot less contact pressure to make them deform to improve the contact. I suppose one might prove whether the resistance is changed for the better if you have a really good instrument to check it. But this will not be your garden variety multi-meter. It's pretty easy to measure what's happening yourself. The test is not difficult. I would urge people to try it themselves. It's especially enlightening with hard-to-connect metals like aluminum. You need a digital multimeter with a millivolt scale (usually 200mv or 400mv full-scale). And, you need a source of a known DC current of an amp or more. A 10-amp battery charger with a ammeter will do. Let's say you want to measure the resistance of the connections to a 12v battery: Run the battery down, so it will actually charge at 10 amps. Connect the charger at a point somewhat away from the battery, so the will be current is flowing in the wires and terminals you want to check. Set your meter to its millivolt scale. Connect one lead to the post of the battery itself. Connect the other lead to the terminal that connects to this post. Read the millivolt drop of the terminal, and the charging current from the charger. Use Ohm's law to calculate the resistance. For example: R = V / I = 10 millivolts / 10 amps = 1 milliohm (0.001 ohms) Under normal circumstances, 0.001 ohm would be a good connection. But it's a *bad* connection in an EV traction pack! At 100 amps, it would have a 1 volt drop, and so produce 100 watts of heat! Chinese lithiums I've tested straight from the factory are this bad, and sometimes worse! If you don't believe that cleaning, bolting, and contact greases help, try an experiment. 1. Get two pieces of aluminum that's been sitting around a long time. Bolt them together. Measure the torque if you can; if not, use a socket wrench and apply a know force. Measure the resistance between them (as described above). Notice that the tighter the bolt, the lower the resistance (to a point; then it doesn't matter any more). 2. Take them apart. Clean the two surfaces with sandpaper, file, wire wheel, etc. Clean off any resulting dust. Bolt them together again, and measure the resistance again at several different bolt torques. You will find that the resistance is lower, at every bolt torque (though it still reaches a point where more torque doesn't reduce resistance). 3. Add any kind of contact grease. Noalox, axle grease, vaseline, etc. Repeat the test. You will find no difference in resistance, with or without the grease, no matter which one you use. But... leave the bolted pieces of aluminum outdoors for a while, where they will get hot/cold/wet/dirty etc. Without the grease, the contact resistance will go up. With the grease, it will stay about the same. This is a complex subject. I hope I have not oversimplified it too much. The experts already know it, and can ignore my analogies. But I hope those with only a little knowledge may gain some understanding. And, I hope people will *measure it for themselves*. That's far better than listening to experts debating how many electrons can dance on the head of a pin. :-) -- The definition of research: Shoot the arrow first, and paint the target around where it lands. -- David Van Baak -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htmhttp://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/05a8f629/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion
Hi Martin, Nice post. See below. On Jul 31, 2014, at 9:25 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Hi Mark, I'll lay my cards on the table and say that I am distinctly anti H2 - *as a short to medium-term serious contender for the replacement of petrol and diesel-powered vehicles*. OK. I have no massive problem with research continuing into fuel cells whether powered by H2 or anything else. OK. However, what I and many others object to, is the use of vast sums of public money being spent by Big Oil to continue their virtual monopoly on what is essentially a basic human right to travel without relying on flakey or non-existant public transport. Big Oil currently has a monopoly because few of us have the means to produce our own 'oil'. Ok. I mostly get that. In fact, having spent part of my career battling direct emissions by BO (small oil, too), and indirect emissions as you articulate, and pressing for alt transportation, I could have easily written that a number of years ago. If allowed to, BO will continue to run this monopoly by being the sole providers of H2 as, again, it is effectively impossible for individuals to 'roll their own'. This is where I think you need to reevaluate. BO is not part of any monopoly of H2 suppliers. H2 is mostly NOT from BO. Most H2 right now come from industrial gas companies, who are not related to BO. When CARB went to pass a rule requiring BO to put in fueling infrastructure for H2, one company even said something along the lines of why should we pay to speed our own demise. As I've recently pointed out here, you should take a look at who is getting funding from the state to put in H2 fueling infrastructure. In fact, look at who has applied. You will see no BO names there. Lastly, take a look at the membership of both the CA Fuel Cell Partnership and the California Hydrogen Business Council (where I am currently board president). You won't see any BO names either. BO used to be part of the Partnership, but dropped out years ago. So please look at the facts on BO involvement. You'll see a few things here and there, Shell ownership of the Torrance station, which actually gets their H2 from a different (none BO) company. But fact is, they have little, if any, involvement. Electric vehicles, on the other hand, are an entirely different matter. Today it is quite possible for an individual to generate all the electricity s/he could need - including that for an EV - on the roof of their own house (assuming it is big enough). This idea scares the Hell out of Big Oil for obvious reasons. Not much of the energy comes that way, though you are right, it could. Almost none of the infrastructure being paid for by public funds is produced that way either. As far as H2, most is not produced that way either. And while it currently isn't economically feasible (by most measures) to do so, it is also possible. There is at least one unit on the market that can do this, at least one other that is in development, with more to come as technology improves and costs drop. But this is certainly longer term, and as you say, today we can do that with BEVs. But as far as the renewable aspect of the fuel, there has been a real groundswell in the industry that is demanding renewable H2. The OEMs are saying that their customers want it. They are saying that their customers want clean vehicles, and renewable fuels are part if that. And I am also seeing a recognition among the industrial gas companies that recognize that to be successful, they will need to provide renewable hydrogen. That is my principle problem with H2FCVs. Understood, but the main premise of your reason is not correct factually. But it does not stop there. There are many other very good reasons why H2FCVs are a 'bad idea' and the very next one on my list is the fact that the efficiency of the whole system is dreadful when compared to BEVs - barely better than ICEVs. I'll let others name the rest of the list - or you could research it yourself... Start with the fact that Southern California is talking about installing just a dozen H2 refuelling stations at a combined cost of some $6m and then consider that there are some 120 thousand gas stations in the US... On the other hand, consider that every single home in the land has at least one EV 'refuelling station' in it already in the form of a standard mains receptacle... Though this almost argues for putting *no* funding into BEV infrastructure, if every house has a station already. I disagree with that, but that's only my opinion. Clearly, there are pros and cons with every technology, H2 and BEVs included. That's why there is no silver bullet. To my mind, spending the, frankly, obscene amounts of public money that providing even a barely adequate H2 refuelling infrastructure would cost rather than one the one hundredth of that amount that
Re: [EVDL] Lithium battery setpoints...
thicker. I don't like the idea of sanding terminals. You want then to have the flat machined surface they have leaving the factory o get a good bolted joint with as much contact area as possible... What you think is a flat machined surface is actually a mountain range under a microscope. Machining, sanding, polishing etc. just reduces the scale of the mountains. When the two surfaces touch, only the peaks actually make contact. Increasing the contact pressure makes the metal deform, flattening the peaks, and improving the contact area. The deformations also break any oxide layer that may have formed, if it's thin enough and weak enough. (Aluminum oxide is a tough one, because it grows strong and thick). If you're bolting together steel, the contact pressures needed to deform it are tremendous. But lead, copper, silver, gold, and aluminum are all very soft metals -- it takes a lot less contact pressure to make them deform to improve the contact. I suppose one might prove whether the resistance is changed for the better if you have a really good instrument to check it. But this will not be your garden variety multi-meter. It's pretty easy to measure what's happening yourself. The test is not difficult. I would urge people to try it themselves. It's especially enlightening with hard-to-connect metals like aluminum. You need a digital multimeter with a millivolt scale (usually 200mv or 400mv full-scale). And, you need a source of a known DC current of an amp or more. A 10-amp battery charger with a ammeter will do. Let's say you want to measure the resistance of the connections to a 12v battery: Run the battery down, so it will actually charge at 10 amps. Connect the charger at a point somewhat away from the battery, so the will be current is flowing in the wires and terminals you want to check. Set your meter to its millivolt scale. Connect one lead to the post of the battery itself. Connect the other lead to the terminal that connects to this post. Read the millivolt drop of the terminal, and the charging current from the charger. Use Ohm's law to calculate the resistance. For example: R = V / I = 10 millivolts / 10 amps = 1 milliohm (0.001 ohms) Under normal circumstances, 0.001 ohm would be a good connection. But it's a *bad* connection in an EV traction pack! At 100 amps, it would have a 1 volt drop, and so produce 100 watts of heat! Chinese lithiums I've tested straight from the factory are this bad, and sometimes worse! If you don't believe that cleaning, bolting, and contact greases help, try an experiment. 1. Get two pieces of aluminum that's been sitting around a long time. Bolt them together. Measure the torque if you can; if not, use a socket wrench and apply a know force. Measure the resistance between them (as described above). Notice that the tighter the bolt, the lower the resistance (to a point; then it doesn't matter any more). 2. Take them apart. Clean the two surfaces with sandpaper, file, wire wheel, etc. Clean off any resulting dust. Bolt them together again, and measure the resistance again at several different bolt torques. You will find that the resistance is lower, at every bolt torque (though it still reaches a point where more torque doesn't reduce resistance). 3. Add any kind of contact grease. Noalox, axle grease, vaseline, etc. Repeat the test. You will find no difference in resistance, with or without the grease, no matter which one you use. But... leave the bolted pieces of aluminum outdoors for a while, where they will get hot/cold/wet/dirty etc. Without the grease, the contact resistance will go up. With the grease, it will stay about the same. This is a complex subject. I hope I have not oversimplified it too much. The experts already know it, and can ignore my analogies. But I hope those with only a little knowledge may gain some understanding. And, I hope people will *measure it for themselves*. That's far better than listening to experts debating how many electrons can dance on the head of a pin. :-) -- The definition of research: Shoot the arrow first, and paint the target around where it lands. -- David Van Baak -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htmhttp://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/05a8f629/attachment.htm
