date:20140916

Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design

2014-09-16 Thread Brett Davis via EV

Data point: If Subaru put a Volt-ish drivetrain in the Outback, there would
be one in my driveway.

Brett (waiting)
On Sep 15, 2014 7:48 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

On Sep 14, 2014, at 11:29 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

As I see it, we really have only two ways to go. Either we look for
ways to
make EVs that match those massive ICEVs in utility, or we concentrate on
making great EVs that do other things really, really well.

Actually, there's a third way, though I realize that it's one that's not
so popular with the readership here.

Plug-in hybrids.

If a puffy SUV or truck were outfitted with something analogous to the
Volt's drivetrain but appropriately up-sized, even with the same size
battery pack, at worst it'd still have a ~20 mile all-electric range. As a
marketing bonus, that electric motor will have lots of low-end torque, and
that metric is the one the marketing departments love to use for these
vehicles. For many, that would make it a pure BEV for 80% of trips. Even
those putting an hundred miles a day on the vehicle would still be driving
20% of their miles electrically...and that's the equivalent of turning one
out of five puffy vehicles purely electric.

I think most of us here realize what it would mean for one out of five
puffy vehicles to be pure electric, and most would jump for joy at the
possibility. So why not a vehicle that's not pure electric but 20%
electric? And _especially_ why not when, again, on average, it'll really be
50% - 80%+ electric?

I think it's pretty clear that the only real technological challenge
facing electric vehicles is the battery. Motors aren't a problem; today's
electric motors absolutely smoke their fossil fuel counterparts. And the
way to improve batteries is to sell more of them. And the way to sell more
of them is to put them in more cars, even if those cars also have a fossil
fuel tank.

A transition from an ICE-only vehicle to a 20-mile PHEV to a 40-mile PHEV
to an 80-mile PHEV to a 150-mile PHEV to a 300-mile BEV is much easier for
the industry to manage and practically a natural from a consumer and
marketing perspective. That 20-mile PHEV is a really big value-add for
the consumer: save big on fuel and get a performance upgrade. What's not to
love? The next generation has double the range, enough for most people to
only hit the gas pumps every few months. (As a practical matter, this would
be more than enough to solve all our vehicular fossil fuel problems.) The
80-mile generation after that is effectively a BEV with an emergency
reserve tank of a few hundred miles. The 150-mile PHEV really is a pure BEV
save you can use it to tow the boat to the lake on the other side of the
state rather than having to rent something for the trip. And the 300-mile
BEV, assuming it can get to 80% charge in 15 - 20 minutes and an adequate
charging network, is the final na
il in the ICE coffin.

...but, of course, we're still at the front end of that transition, with
20- to 40-mile PHEVs being the limit of practicality. But that's still an
absolutely amazingly wonderful improvement over the ICE, and worthy of
celebration and definitely something to encourage!

Or, TL/DR: Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the fantastic.

Cheers,

b
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Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to ahigher mpge design

2014-09-16 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

Changing a vehicle to Hybrid alone will give great fuel economy
improvement.
And don't under-estimate the smarts of people - if they can get cheaper
driving by rolling out an extension cord and plugging in at 110V, which
is plenty for a typical PIH, then there will me many people doing that!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 10:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to
ahigher mpge design

On 15 Sep 2014 at 9:34, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

 the full-size (puffy) truck or suv vehicle its self is what the buyer
 wants, and that the pih model would be close to the same size and
 passenger seating ...

Now here is where my cynical side rebuts my optimistic side. :-\

I wonder if this wouldn't just end up much like the flexible fuel
vehicles 
sold for the last several years.  I think the automakers get some kind
of 
CAFE credits for those (I don't know the details and it's OT anyway),
but 
the number that ever get fed anything but gasoline is infinitesimal.  

Now suppose that with subsidies the big automakers could sell PIH trucks
and 
SUVs cheaper than pure ICE trucks and SUVs.  Of course they would; the 
dealers would clamor for it.  BUT, I'll bet they wouldn't sell them as
PIHs. 
The sales people would barely mention it, except to maybe tell the buyer

it's cheaper because you could plug it in if you wanted to.   

Many or most of these bargain-priced PIHs would go to people who had no 
interest in using the EV mode.  Chances are good that even though they'd

save money by plugging in, many of them wouldn't bother - especially if
they 
had to have an EVSE installed in their garages (if they even had
garages).  
I can see many of these PIHs running most or all of the time on
gasoline, 
just like the flexible fuel vehicles do today.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] EVLN: Writer fixated on iMiev EV's range

2014-09-16 Thread brucedp5 via EV

http://www.tflcar.com/2014/09/2014-mitsubishi-imiev-first-impression/
2014 Mitsubishi iMiEV: Range Anxiety Is a Real Thing [First Impression]
by Emme Hall - September 9, 2014

[images
http://www.tflcar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/2014-Mitsubishi-iMiEV.jpg

http://www.tflcar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Mitsubishi-iMiEV-2014.jpg

http://www.tflcar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Mitsubishi-2014-iMiEV.jpg

video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nkv3VS1F510
A Day in the Life of an Electric Car
The Fast Lane Car Feb 2, 2012
( http://www.TFLcar.com ) In the very near future will we all be driving
electric cars? That's a question that only 10 years ago seemed like a dream,
but today with all electric cars like the 2012 Nissan Leaf, it doesn't seem
so far fetched. Of course unlike, gasoline powered cars, electric cars can't
be filled up at your local gas station in a few minutes. Once they run our
of juice...you are well and truly stuck. This is called range anxiety and it
can be all too real. We decide to find out just how real by spending a day
in the life of the all new Nissan Leaf.
]

Many reviews of electric cars mention the concept of “range anxiety.” Why
would one be anxious? After all, if you know you have 62 miles of range, as
I did in this week’s 2014 Mitsubishi iMiEV. You know how far your commute is
and simple math tells you how many round trips you have before you need to
charge. No biggie, right?

Oh no. Oh no no no no no! It turns out that the actual miles driven very
rarely have a direct correlation with the drop in range miles.

I’ve been in EVs before, but they had always been quick takes, where range
was not an issue. Now, I found myself monitoring my driving, keeping my
acceleration as gentle as possible, keeping my speeds slow, and yet after
every trip my range miles dropped more than miles driven.
Miles Driven Decrease in Range Conditions
3.0 7.0 city, a/c on, regular mode
2.6 6.0 city, a/c on, regular mode
4.1 10 city, a/c off, eco mode

You can see why I was getting anxious. So far I’d only driven the car 9.1
miles and had already eaten up 23 miles of my 62 mile range. There are only
two (!) 30 minute charging stations in Washington DC. Level 2 chargers are
more prevalent, but that takes 7-8 hours. I ended up charging in the garage
at work via a 120 volt outlet, at a time of 14-16 hours for a full charge.

With my car rapidly losing juice, my plans had to be modified to account for
my transportation. If you’ve seen my videos, you know I’m a footloose and
fancy free kind of gal. Having to actually plan and consider the constant
needs of my vehicle was a new experience for me. I felt hindered. I felt
tethered. I felt like the car, which is supposed to give me freedom and
independence, was actually doing the opposite.

I’m sure other folks don’t place the same importance on personal
independence as I do, so maybe range anxiety won’t have the same meaning to
them. As for me, the iMiEV was suffocating. Until the infrastructure offers
quick fill ups like we currently have with gas and diesel power, I can’t see
myself buying an EV.

Check out Roman and Nathan as they experience range anxiety of their own in
the Nissan Leaf.
[© 2014 The Fast Lane Car]

For EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=user_nodesuser=204476
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http://morristowngreen.com/2014/09/15/one-event-that-needs-a-plug-electric-car-show-in-morristown-sept-20/
One EVent that needs a plug EV show 9/20 Morristown NJ

http://insideevs.com/killajoule-breaks-270mph-fastest-electric-mc-second-fastest-ev/
KillaJoule Breaks 270MPH – Fastest E-Motorcycle, Second Fastest EV

http://www.irishexaminer.com/motors/motors-features/old-petrolhead-goes-electric-with-formula-e-285108.html
Old petrolhead goes electric with Formula E

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2014/sep/04/doug-clark-maker-of-tiny-tango-aspires-to-drive/
$240k tiny-tango EV takes me a year to build one = only 12 exist

http://www.newspressnow.com/news/business/article_2215e6f9-512d-5ab8-92c3-40987c81b3da.html
KCPL’S grant for two MO WSU campus EVSE
+
EVLN: Renault/Bollore EV partnership to promote EVs

{brucedp.150m.com}

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[EVDL] EVLN: Renault/Bollore EV partnership to promote EVs

2014-09-16 Thread brucedp5 via EV

Renault to build Bollore's electric Bluecars

http://www.nextgreencar.com/news/6774/Renault-and-Bollor-form-EV-partnership
Renault and Bolloré form EV partnership
by: Peter Thomas 9.9.2014

[image / Renault
http://www.nextgreencar.com/i/news_xlarge/paris-autolib-2013.jpg
The partnership will focus on three key areas
]

Renault and Bolloré are joining forces to promote electric vehicles (EVs)
as part of three agreements relating to industrial cooperation, the founding
of a joint-venture to sell EV car sharing solutions and a feasibility study
on the development of a specific new Renault vehicle for car-sharing plans.

Industrial cooperation agreement

The Bolloré Group has commissioned Renault for its expertise in electric
cars to gradually take over assembly of the Bluecar, formerly built solely
in Italy. The vehicles will be assembled at the Renault plant in Dieppe
(Normandy, France) from the second-half of 2015. For the Dieppe plant, this
decision is an acknowledgement of its expertise and a promise for its future
activity.

The Dieppe plant specialises in building vehicles in small series. It
currently builds Clio Renaultsport and is set to build the future Alpine,
scheduled for launch in 2016. The Dieppe plant will be able to rely on the
expertise of the Renault group in electric vehicles to acquire the skills
necessary to assemble this type of vehicle.

A new final assembly workshop will be set up specially within the plant to
build these vehicles. The Bolloré group will thus have access to modern
production tooling tailored to its requirements and delivering a significant
reduction in costs.

Founding of a joint-venture in car sharing

With a number of cities now taking coercive measures to address air quality
and congestion by limiting traffic, the Renault and Bolloré groups have
decided to set up a joint-venture, whose aim will be to win and install
complete electric car-sharing solutions in France and Europe. The Renault
group will hold a 30 per cent interest in the joint-venture, while the
Bolloré group will own 70 per cent.

As part of this agreement, from the second-half of 2014, customers using
car-sharing networks in Lyon (Bluely) and Bordeaux (Bluecub) will be able to
choose a Twizy, a vehicle that is different but complementary with the
Bluecar, already available on a car-sharing basis in both Lyon and Bordeaux.

Renault vehicles will be gradually integrated with the car-sharing fleet to
reach a proportion of 30 per cent as quickly as possible.

Feasibility study for a 3-seater bluecar

The Bolloré group has asked Renault to conduct a feasibility survey on the
design, development and production in a Renault Group plant in France of a
smaller car than the existing Bluecar (three seats instead of four), able to
support the expansion of car-sharing initiatives. This vehicle could also be
sold to consumers, companies and municipalities.

This electric vehicle will be equipped with a Blue Solutions
lithium-metal-polymer (LMP) battery with a capacity of 20 kWh.

Reducing environmental impact

In order to significantly reduce the environmental impact of cars, the
development of electric vehicles and car-sharing is not an option; it is a
necessary transformation.

According to research by Renault, the overall environmental impact of an
electric vehicle is virtually half that of an equivalent internal combustion
engine (ICE) vehicle. Electric vehicles emit no CO2, smells or fine
particles (excluding wear parts) in use. As a result, they significantly
improve air quality and noise levels, particularly in the city. Without
electric vehicles, improvements in urban air quality will be slow, driven
only by the renewal of the ICE vehicles and by changes to regulations on
pollutant emissions.

Electric vehicles are particularly enjoyable to drive. Since their launch,
they have built up a customer base that includes both consumers and business
fleets. The electric vehicle market has kicked off at a pace that is 20
times faster than the hybrid market in its time. Sales of electric vehicles
are growing worldwide: + 100 per cent in France, +250 per cent in the USA,
+50 per cent in Germany (2013 vs 2012).

The Renault group has expertise in the design, development and production
of electric vehicles (ZOE, Kangoo, Twizy). The Bolloré group is a key player
in electricity storage solutions, a field whose applications include
car-sharing programs based on all-electric vehicles. This application is
recognized today with the success of Autolib in Paris.
[© Next Green Car]
...
http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/passenger-vehicle/cars/renault-to-build-bollores-electric-bluecars/42093268
Renault to build Bollore's electric Bluecars
...
http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/09/09/renault-sa-bollore-electric-car-idINL5N0RA0A320140909
CORRECTED-Renault to build Bollore's electric Bluecars
Sep 9, 2014

For EVLN posts use:

Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design

2014-09-16 Thread Michael Ross via EV

I predict the truck owner will notice the PIH.  The ICE will be less potent
to compensate for the extra cost of the PI part.

Should be easy to sling an AC motor under a truck leaving the ICE in
place. As discussed here it is very doable.  There are other nice things
about a truck - lots of room for batteries compared to a car.  Cost a lot
for batteries now, but that will change.

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 1:18 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On 15 Sep 2014 at 9:34, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

  the full-size (puffy) truck or suv vehicle its self is what the buyer
  wants, and that the pih model would be close to the same size and
  passenger seating ...

 Now here is where my cynical side rebuts my optimistic side. :-\

 I wonder if this wouldn't just end up much like the flexible fuel
 vehicles
 sold for the last several years.  I think the automakers get some kind of
 CAFE credits for those (I don't know the details and it's OT anyway), but
 the number that ever get fed anything but gasoline is infinitesimal.

 Now suppose that with subsidies the big automakers could sell PIH trucks
 and
 SUVs cheaper than pure ICE trucks and SUVs.  Of course they would; the
 dealers would clamor for it.  BUT, I'll bet they wouldn't sell them as
 PIHs.
 The sales people would barely mention it, except to maybe tell the buyer
 it's cheaper because you could plug it in if you wanted to.

 Many or most of these bargain-priced PIHs would go to people who had no
 interest in using the EV mode.  Chances are good that even though they'd
 save money by plugging in, many of them wouldn't bother - especially if
 they
 had to have an EVSE installed in their garages (if they even had garages).
 I can see many of these PIHs running most or all of the time on gasoline,
 just like the flexible fuel vehicles do today.

 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator

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-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
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Re: [EVDL] Headways dissimilar metals?

2014-09-16 Thread Michael Ross via EV

You will need to turn off html and send plain text I guess.

Here is the scrubbed posting:
I'm building up some headway packs.

My understanding is they have aluminum end caps in the bare state, but
when you get them with screw terminals the screw terminals are steel
and sit on the aluminum./div

Might this make it better to wire them together with Aluminum plates
rather than Copper plates? Does solder dipping
the plate help? Thanks for the advice.

I am sure you will get much advise here.

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 1:08 AM, via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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[EVDL] 4 to 12 Cell Lithium BMS

2014-09-16 Thread Steve Clunn via EV

I am working on some Golf Carts and portable 12V power packs that get used
sporadically and may sit for months without use.

I have contactor on one 12V and 36V that draws about 1 amp. The problem
is, if everything is happy, the Mini BMS Circuit keeps the contactor ON.
Which draws enough current, that at some point, will drain the battery down.

I am trying to come up with a way that the owner can walk away from this
system, and come back to it and have it ready to go without having to
switch switches OFF and ON.

One thought I have had is to set it up with a transistor that controls the
contactor. And after so many hours, will turn OFF the contactor. My
thought was a Mosfet with a large Capacitor and a Momentary switch to
charge the capacitor which would keep the contactor ON for maybe 10 hours
while the Capacitor slowly drained down.

Of course, the operator will have to engage this each time he uses the
battery, but at least it will turn its self off automatically.

I am wondering if anyone has any other ideas... that doesn't involve a
micro processor.

I am noticing that the smaller the parts that I am working onthe longer
it seems to take !
--
Steve Clunn
Merging the best of the past with
the best of the future.
www.Greenshedconversions.com
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Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to ahigher mpge design

2014-09-16 Thread Ben Goren via EV

Yes -- exactly.

Trying to find an alternative fuel filling station is a real pain...but the 
instant that somebody discovers that all they have to do is drag an extension 
cord from the 110 outlet in the garage to the car and the next morning they've 
got 20 free miles...well, almost nobody is going to fail to plug the car in 
overnight at that point.

Then, get them hooked on plugging in at parking lots so they get that many more 
free miles...and now this limited-electric-range puffy SUV is suddenly, for 
all intensive porpoises, a BEV that happens to be lugging around its own 
on-board tow truck in case the batteries do run out.

And, again...even marginal efficiency improvements in these worst-of-the-worst 
vehicles in the fleet far outweigh much more substantial improvements in 
middle-of-the-pack vehicles, let alone significant improvements in the most 
efficient cars on the road. Replacing a 35 MPG sedan with a 50 MPG econobox is 
fantastic, but giving a 20-mile electric range to a 15 MPG soccer mom SUV 
leaves *far* more carbon in the ground -- even though there's a 15 MPG 
difference in each case.

b

On Sep 16, 2014, at 12:46 AM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Changing a vehicle to Hybrid alone will give great fuel economy
 improvement.
 And don't under-estimate the smarts of people - if they can get cheaper
 driving by rolling out an extension cord and plugging in at 110V, which
 is plenty for a typical PIH, then there will me many people doing that!
 
 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
 Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
 Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
 Administrator via EV
 Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 10:19 PM
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to
 ahigher mpge design
 
 On 15 Sep 2014 at 9:34, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
 
 the full-size (puffy) truck or suv vehicle its self is what the buyer
 wants, and that the pih model would be close to the same size and
 passenger seating ...
 
 Now here is where my cynical side rebuts my optimistic side. :-\
 
 I wonder if this wouldn't just end up much like the flexible fuel
 vehicles 
 sold for the last several years.  I think the automakers get some kind
 of 
 CAFE credits for those (I don't know the details and it's OT anyway),
 but 
 the number that ever get fed anything but gasoline is infinitesimal.  
 
 Now suppose that with subsidies the big automakers could sell PIH trucks
 and 
 SUVs cheaper than pure ICE trucks and SUVs.  Of course they would; the 
 dealers would clamor for it.  BUT, I'll bet they wouldn't sell them as
 PIHs. 
 The sales people would barely mention it, except to maybe tell the buyer
 
 it's cheaper because you could plug it in if you wanted to.   
 
 Many or most of these bargain-priced PIHs would go to people who had no 
 interest in using the EV mode.  Chances are good that even though they'd
 
 save money by plugging in, many of them wouldn't bother - especially if
 they 
 had to have an EVSE installed in their garages (if they even had
 garages).  
 I can see many of these PIHs running most or all of the time on
 gasoline, 
 just like the flexible fuel vehicles do today.
 
 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator
 
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Re: [EVDL] 4 to 12 Cell Lithium BMS

2014-09-16 Thread Michael Ross via EV

Steve,

I watch EVTV off an on. They are into golf carts and have a LiFePO4 pack
that will probably never fail - which is to say, last longer than a several
carts perhaps. I believe it has a BMS built in. You might see if you can
find the weekly show last year where Rickard showed in depth what they put
into them.

I am sure they are a premium package, but you might see something about
them that you like - or maybe you can deal with the higher cost balanced by
really good performance and reliability..

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Steve Clunn via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote: