Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

[paul dove via EV]

The I-MiEV is RWD

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 28, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Paul,
> Most cars are set for a slight toe-in, but considering that in FWD cars, the 
> wheels are pulling the car,
> Then tend to get a slight bit more toe-in dynamically when driving, so to 
> give them a neutral toe
> You need to set them a hair toe-out in rest.
> I do this myself on a flat and level road/parking lot.
> I also keep a note of how much I turned the tie rod, so I can easily set it 
> back to where it was.
> Also, I work on only one tie-rod as the changes are so minimal that you don't 
> notice the steering wheel "straight" being off.
> My last improvement from 3.9 to 4.9 miles per kWh was achieved by turning the 
> tie rod only 1/2 turn "shorter"
> (turning the inner tie rod further into the outer tie rod, shortening it by 
> 1/2 thread width)
> Using just one crescent wrench, this was 2 minutes work.
> Hope this helps,
> Cor.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via EV
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 3:39 AM
> To: Hoegberg; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!
> 
> I wonder if that would help on my I-MiEV ?  I thought I had lost quite a bit 
> of range but I put 40 psi in the tires and I recovered half of what I lost. 
> Anyone know the proper alignment on a I-MiEV?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Apr 28, 2017, at 2:22 AM, Hoegberg via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Från: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> för Cor van de Water via EV 
>> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>> Skickat: den 28 april 2017 02:25
>> Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Ämne: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!
>> 
>>> After doing the toe-OUT on my Leaf I had parked it for a while
>> (I am selling it, as I am always driving my electric truck) But today 
>> I decided to take it to work for the day so it is not Sitting for too 
>> long.
>>> Wow! The miles/kWh varied a bit, traffic was mixed, some local and
>> Some freeway, but it stayed between 4.9 and 5.2 miles/kWh.
>> Before the toe adjustment, I had difficulty to keep it above 3.8 So, 
>> apparently this is an *important* adjustment if you are driving Your 
>> Leaf careful but are not getting the efficiency near 5 mi/kWh.
>> This is greatly extending the range of my Leaf, now that I know how!
>> Cor.
>> 
>> 
>> - Thank you for the report, interesting!
>> What is the battery-power at 70(or90) kmh?
>> 
>> How to convert that "efficiency"-number to standard energy 
>> consumption?  (kWh/100km)
>> 
>> I have done this on my Volvo V70 also some years ago, it did help a 
>> lot, but the car with more neutral toe adjustment - needs a bit more 
>> active driver on the steering wheel,
>> 
>> It would be interesting to try to adjust it *live* and watch the power 
>> needed when running 90kmh or so.
>> 
>> Also the main problem with this fossil-car is the engine..
>> it uses more energy than the leaf per km, just at no load to turn the 
>> crankshaft and other tings..
>> and about 4-5 times more energy when running 90kmh
>> 
>> It takes about 2kwh per 10 km *at engine idle* no load, with the 
>> clutch down in 60 kmh..
>> 
>> /john
>> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was 
>> scrubbed...
>> URL: 
>> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20170428/86
>> e3ab89/attachment.htm> ___
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>> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Then the front should be free-rolling, so setting it to neutral should be the 
goal. 

-Original Message-
From: paul dove [mailto:dov...@bellsouth.net] 
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 7:13 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

The I-MiEV is RWD

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 28, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Paul,
> Most cars are set for a slight toe-in, but considering that in FWD 
> cars, the wheels are pulling the car, Then tend to get a slight bit 
> more toe-in dynamically when driving, so to give them a neutral toe You need 
> to set them a hair toe-out in rest.
> I do this myself on a flat and level road/parking lot.
> I also keep a note of how much I turned the tie rod, so I can easily set it 
> back to where it was.
> Also, I work on only one tie-rod as the changes are so minimal that you don't 
> notice the steering wheel "straight" being off.
> My last improvement from 3.9 to 4.9 miles per kWh was achieved by turning the 
> tie rod only 1/2 turn "shorter"
> (turning the inner tie rod further into the outer tie rod, shortening 
> it by 1/2 thread width) Using just one crescent wrench, this was 2 minutes 
> work.
> Hope this helps,
> Cor.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via 
> EV
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 3:39 AM
> To: Hoegberg; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!
> 
> I wonder if that would help on my I-MiEV ?  I thought I had lost quite a bit 
> of range but I put 40 psi in the tires and I recovered half of what I lost. 
> Anyone know the proper alignment on a I-MiEV?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Apr 28, 2017, at 2:22 AM, Hoegberg via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Från: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> för Cor van de Water via EV 
>> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>> Skickat: den 28 april 2017 02:25
>> Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Ämne: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!
>> 
>>> After doing the toe-OUT on my Leaf I had parked it for a while
>> (I am selling it, as I am always driving my electric truck) But today 
>> I decided to take it to work for the day so it is not Sitting for too 
>> long.
>>> Wow! The miles/kWh varied a bit, traffic was mixed, some local and
>> Some freeway, but it stayed between 4.9 and 5.2 miles/kWh.
>> Before the toe adjustment, I had difficulty to keep it above 3.8 So, 
>> apparently this is an *important* adjustment if you are driving Your 
>> Leaf careful but are not getting the efficiency near 5 mi/kWh.
>> This is greatly extending the range of my Leaf, now that I know how!
>> Cor.
>> 
>> 
>> - Thank you for the report, interesting!
>> What is the battery-power at 70(or90) kmh?
>> 
>> How to convert that "efficiency"-number to standard energy 
>> consumption?  (kWh/100km)
>> 
>> I have done this on my Volvo V70 also some years ago, it did help a 
>> lot, but the car with more neutral toe adjustment - needs a bit more 
>> active driver on the steering wheel,
>> 
>> It would be interesting to try to adjust it *live* and watch the 
>> power needed when running 90kmh or so.
>> 
>> Also the main problem with this fossil-car is the engine..
>> it uses more energy than the leaf per km, just at no load to turn the 
>> crankshaft and other tings..
>> and about 4-5 times more energy when running 90kmh
>> 
>> It takes about 2kwh per 10 km *at engine idle* no load, with the 
>> clutch down in 60 kmh..
>> 
>> /john
>> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was 
>> scrubbed...
>> URL: 
>> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20170428/8
>> 6 e3ab89/attachment.htm> 
>> ___
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>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV 
>> drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> 
> 
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> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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> _

Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Exactly.
I am running my US Electricar with Leaf packs now,
All that was needed to go from lead-acid to Lithium was program a
configuration change in the controller
To allow the higher charge and drive voltages.
I still need to pull the data from the Leaf BMS that I kept on the pack,
so that I can more accurately show 
How the packs are doing as well as to protect from
overcharge/underdischarge.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via
EV
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 3:35 AM
To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

That's seems extreme to me. I'm sure it would be easier just to switch
to lithium. I imagine only a few changes would be necessary the charger
would need to be switched unless one could reprogram it. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 28, 2017, at 2:55 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
> 
> I remember an EVDL member from about 20 years ago who re-converted a 
> US Electricar pickup after its inverter turned toes up.  This was well

> before the USE owner community reverse-engineered the Dolphin drive.  
> He switched over to a much more conventional -- and more easily 
> serviced -- series DC motor and controller.
> 
> I suppose you could do something similar with an aging RAV4-EV if it 
> were otherwise a goner.  In such a case I wonder if it would be worth 
> adapting a drivetrain from a wrecked Leaf.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL 
> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

> = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the 
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[paul dove via EV]

That's seems extreme to me. I'm sure it would be easier just to switch to 
lithium. I imagine only a few changes would be necessary the charger would need 
to be switched unless one could reprogram it. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 28, 2017, at 2:55 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I remember an EVDL member from about 20 years ago who re-converted a US 
> Electricar pickup after its inverter turned toes up.  This was well before 
> the USE owner community reverse-engineered the Dolphin drive.  He switched 
> over to a much more conventional -- and more easily serviced -- series DC 
> motor and controller.  
> 
> I suppose you could do something similar with an aging RAV4-EV if it were 
> otherwise a goner.  In such a case I wonder if it would be worth adapting a 
> drivetrain from a wrecked Leaf.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Hi Paul,
Most cars are set for a slight toe-in, but considering that in FWD cars, the 
wheels are pulling the car,
Then tend to get a slight bit more toe-in dynamically when driving, so to give 
them a neutral toe
You need to set them a hair toe-out in rest.
I do this myself on a flat and level road/parking lot.
I also keep a note of how much I turned the tie rod, so I can easily set it 
back to where it was.
Also, I work on only one tie-rod as the changes are so minimal that you don't 
notice the steering wheel "straight" being off.
My last improvement from 3.9 to 4.9 miles per kWh was achieved by turning the 
tie rod only 1/2 turn "shorter"
(turning the inner tie rod further into the outer tie rod, shortening it by 1/2 
thread width)
Using just one crescent wrench, this was 2 minutes work.
Hope this helps,
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via EV
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 3:39 AM
To: Hoegberg; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

I wonder if that would help on my I-MiEV ?  I thought I had lost quite a bit of 
range but I put 40 psi in the tires and I recovered half of what I lost. Anyone 
know the proper alignment on a I-MiEV?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 28, 2017, at 2:22 AM, Hoegberg via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Från: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> för Cor van de Water via EV 
> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Skickat: den 28 april 2017 02:25
> Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Ämne: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!
> 
>> After doing the toe-OUT on my Leaf I had parked it for a while
> (I am selling it, as I am always driving my electric truck) But today 
> I decided to take it to work for the day so it is not Sitting for too 
> long.
>> Wow! The miles/kWh varied a bit, traffic was mixed, some local and
> Some freeway, but it stayed between 4.9 and 5.2 miles/kWh.
> Before the toe adjustment, I had difficulty to keep it above 3.8 So, 
> apparently this is an *important* adjustment if you are driving Your 
> Leaf careful but are not getting the efficiency near 5 mi/kWh.
> This is greatly extending the range of my Leaf, now that I know how!
> Cor.
> 
> 
> - Thank you for the report, interesting!
>  What is the battery-power at 70(or90) kmh?
> 
> How to convert that "efficiency"-number to standard energy 
> consumption?  (kWh/100km)
> 
> I have done this on my Volvo V70 also some years ago, it did help a 
> lot, but the car with more neutral toe adjustment - needs a bit more 
> active driver on the steering wheel,
> 
> It would be interesting to try to adjust it *live* and watch the power 
> needed when running 90kmh or so.
> 
> Also the main problem with this fossil-car is the engine..
> it uses more energy than the leaf per km, just at no load to turn the 
> crankshaft and other tings..
> and about 4-5 times more energy when running 90kmh
> 
> It takes about 2kwh per 10 km *at engine idle* no load, with the 
> clutch down in 60 kmh..
> 
> /john
> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was 
> scrubbed...
> URL: 
> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20170428/86
> e3ab89/attachment.htm> ___
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> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

[paul dove via EV]

I wonder if that would help on my I-MiEV ?  I thought I had lost quite a bit of 
range but I put 40 psi in the tires and I recovered half of what I lost. Anyone 
know the proper alignment on a I-MiEV?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 28, 2017, at 2:22 AM, Hoegberg via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Från: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> för Cor van de Water via EV 
> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Skickat: den 28 april 2017 02:25
> Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Ämne: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!
> 
>> After doing the toe-OUT on my Leaf I had parked it for a while
> (I am selling it, as I am always driving my electric truck)
> But today I decided to take it to work for the day so it is not
> Sitting for too long.
>> Wow! The miles/kWh varied a bit, traffic was mixed, some local and
> Some freeway, but it stayed between 4.9 and 5.2 miles/kWh.
> Before the toe adjustment, I had difficulty to keep it above 3.8
> So, apparently this is an *important* adjustment if you are driving
> Your Leaf careful but are not getting the efficiency near 5 mi/kWh.
> This is greatly extending the range of my Leaf, now that I know how!
> Cor.
> 
> 
> - Thank you for the report, interesting!
>  What is the battery-power at 70(or90) kmh?
> 
> How to convert that "efficiency"-number to standard
> energy consumption?  (kWh/100km)
> 
> I have done this on my Volvo V70 also some years ago, it
> did help a lot, but the car with more neutral toe adjustment -
> needs a bit more active driver on the steering wheel,
> 
> It would be interesting to try to adjust it *live* and watch
> the power needed when running 90kmh or so.
> 
> Also the main problem with this fossil-car is the engine..
> it uses more energy than the leaf per km,
> just at no load to turn the crankshaft and other tings..
> and about 4-5 times more energy when running 90kmh
> 
> It takes about 2kwh per 10 km *at engine idle*
> no load, with the clutch down in 60 kmh..
> 
> /john
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20170428/86e3ab89/attachment.htm>
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I have done the toe-adjustment on my "Classic" (2002) Prius many years
ago (2004)
And indeed noticed that although the mileage was slightly better, it
also became more "squirrely" to drive at speed.

For the Leaf with the same adjustment, there is nothing of the sort, it
does feel like it steers lighter than before
But there is no sensation of diverging steering that I felt with other
cars, so it looks like Nissan did a good job
In optimizing the Leaf to allow minimal friction by setting a slight
toe-out and still having a refined feel to the steering.
I was actually surprised by that.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Willie via EV
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:47 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!



On 04/28/2017 02:22 AM, Hoegberg via EV wrote:

> I have done this on my Volvo V70 also some years ago, it did help a 
> lot, but the car with more neutral toe adjustment - needs a bit more 
> active driver on the steering wheel,

As you probably noticed, a car with slight toe out or zero toe in will
likely "wander".  That is, the driver will constantly be making
corrections in steering direction.

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Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

[Willie via EV]

On 04/28/2017 02:22 AM, Hoegberg via EV wrote:


I have done this on my Volvo V70 also some years ago, it
did help a lot, but the car with more neutral toe adjustment -
needs a bit more active driver on the steering wheel,


As you probably noticed, a car with slight toe out or zero toe in will 
likely "wander".  That is, the driver will constantly be making 
corrections in steering direction.


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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170428

[brucedp5 via EV]

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These prices include the so-called “environmental discount” (electric
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+
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Koch Bro Billionaires opposed CO EV tax credit and lost
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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

I remember an EVDL member from about 20 years ago who re-converted a US 
Electricar pickup after its inverter turned toes up.  This was well before 
the USE owner community reverse-engineered the Dolphin drive.  He switched 
over to a much more conventional -- and more easily serviced -- series DC 
motor and controller.  

I suppose you could do something similar with an aging RAV4-EV if it were 
otherwise a goner.  In such a case I wonder if it would be worth adapting a 
drivetrain from a wrecked Leaf.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

[Hoegberg via EV]

Från: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> för Cor van de Water via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Skickat: den 28 april 2017 02:25
Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Ämne: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

> After doing the toe-OUT on my Leaf I had parked it for a while
(I am selling it, as I am always driving my electric truck)
But today I decided to take it to work for the day so it is not
Sitting for too long.
> Wow! The miles/kWh varied a bit, traffic was mixed, some local and
Some freeway, but it stayed between 4.9 and 5.2 miles/kWh.
Before the toe adjustment, I had difficulty to keep it above 3.8
So, apparently this is an *important* adjustment if you are driving
Your Leaf careful but are not getting the efficiency near 5 mi/kWh.
This is greatly extending the range of my Leaf, now that I know how!
Cor.


- Thank you for the report, interesting!
  What is the battery-power at 70(or90) kmh?

How to convert that "efficiency"-number to standard
energy consumption?  (kWh/100km)

I have done this on my Volvo V70 also some years ago, it
did help a lot, but the car with more neutral toe adjustment -
needs a bit more active driver on the steering wheel,

It would be interesting to try to adjust it *live* and watch
the power needed when running 90kmh or so.

Also the main problem with this fossil-car is the engine..
it uses more energy than the leaf per km,
just at no load to turn the crankshaft and other tings..
and about 4-5 times more energy when running 90kmh

It takes about 2kwh per 10 km *at engine idle*
no load, with the clutch down in 60 kmh..

/john
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