Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)
Is solar thermal water heating *still* more efficient? - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Jul 17, 2019, at 11:28 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV > wrote: > > Inefficent yes, but hooking up 2 wires is a lot easier than building one out > of copper, plywood, glass and paint. With solar panels costing only 25 > cents per watt (on a good deal) then the investment in 4 panels (800W) is > about $275 and totally maintenance free. Where as cobbling together one > will only work in the summer, or if you want to use antifreeze, then you > have to add pumps and heat exchangers, etc. And will it work 20 years > without any attention? > > But you are right. You can triple the efficiency with a modern heatpump > water heater, BUT then it wont run on DC, so then you have to have 4 times > more panels and then do the grid-tie-only-when-running trick, and it simply > is not worth it. Better to just bight the bullet and be grid tied. > > Oh, I assume you have seen the articles that thermal solar hot water heating > was dead in 2008 and now is considered dead-dead-dead. It is more efficient > and economical to do grid-tie solar and a heatpump water heater. Because > since 2005, price of PV panels has dropped ten to one and heatpump water > heater is 3 times more efficient. (combined, then is 30 times more cost > effective than it used to be. Plus, the biggie, is that for every drop of > hot water you do not use, then you still get full 100% retail value for your > solar energy. Whereas with thermal solar, unless you use 100% of your hot > water every single day, then your thermal panels are doing nothing once the > tank is hot. > > Bob > -Original Message- > From: EV On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and > waterheating) > >> From: Robert Bruninga >> >> … using about 4 Solar panels >> for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good idea. You need hot >> water every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4 >> or so panels. > > Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water! > > Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar energy. > Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing, plywood, > glass, and some flat-black spray paint. > > Jan > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fixing horn honking on Spark EV
On 17 Jul 2019 at 17:44, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > All sorts of cars have been "cracked" via the car's wireless network to > make it do all sorts of things. I've read about that too. I hadn't really thought about it much until now, but wouldn't that be yet another way for the "coal rollers" to hassle EV drivers? Heck, they even go after drivers of small ICEVs. Bad enough that they blow black smoke at us; a computer attack could be much more dangerous. With all the cameras they're tacking onto modern EVs, at least there's a chance that there'd be legal evidence against a trucker who did something like that. This isn't quite the future we were promised. Can we rewind the tape to 1970 or so and try again? David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)
Thanks for the agreement. When I first read your paragraph, there was a smudge on my screen and I read this line as: "There is of course where to put the wire " I read as "There is of course where to put the wife.". so true! Bob On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 10:09 PM Michael Ross via EV wrote: > There was a time when solar thermal and its 70% efficiency made sense, > because PV cost too much. But that time has passed. > > I think that PV is now better than solar thermal. There are a lot of hidden > costs and difficulties putting a thermal collector on one's roof. There is > a bunch of piping that not everyone wants to be obvious or cobbled looking. > You have to poke holes into your attic and elsewhere. It needs to be > insulated and to not break in the winter. You have to have pumps and > valves and drains. You need a special water heater, and it needs electric > backup anyway. You have to own ladders and be able to work safely with > them. You have to be more than just a little handy. There are HOA and > building quality requirements for proper design and installation. It takes > up space where PV could go. > > Or you can mount a few relativity inexpensive arrays and wire them up. > There is of course where to put the wire. Much easier to do a neat and tidy > job, no leaks through the roof, no fancy heater with a heat exchanger. > > The business of building and installing solar thermal collectors is just > about done in because of the constantly falling cost of PV. Solar thermal > ends up more complicated, expensive, and has more opportunity for error. > > I thought Robert's solutions were attractive. I provided certified and > custom testing for solar thermal collectors for 5 years. I am handy enough, > but I would go with PV, not thermal. Far too much trouble the thermal > business. > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:51 PM Jan Steinman via EV > wrote: > > > > From: Robert Bruninga > > > > > > … using about 4 Solar panels > > > for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good idea. You need hot > > water > > > every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4 or so > > > panels. > > > > Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water! > > > > Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar > energy. > > Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing, > plywood, > > glass, and some flat-black spray paint. > > > > Jan > > > > ___ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > -- > Michael E. Ross > (919) 585-6737 Land > (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet, > Google Phone and Text > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190717/bc73aa0e/attachment.html > > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190717/cfe6c94f/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)
> Where are you getting 25 cents a watt panels? Must be some real junk sunelec.com sells them by the truck load, or pallet from Miami. Currently the 25 cents a watt are for 325W (72 cell panels). Minimum quantity is about 25 on a pallet and last time I bought some from there, I think my two pallets cost about $500 trucking from Miami to Maryland. These are the great deals. But they have all kinds of panels still below 50 cents a watt. We used to see these deals often, before Trump slapped on the tarrifs. Both my house and church have used their panels. All are prime items. Bob, WB4APR On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 10:48 PM Alan Arrison via EV wrote: > Where are you getting 25 cents a watt panels? Must be some real junk. > > > On 7/17/2019 2:28 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > > Inefficent yes, but hooking up 2 wires is a lot easier than building one > out > > of copper, plywood, glass and paint. With solar panels costing only 25 > > cents per watt (on a good deal) then the investment in 4 panels (800W) is > > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190717/4d03d0ae/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)
Where are you getting 25 cents a watt panels? Must be some real junk. On 7/17/2019 2:28 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Inefficent yes, but hooking up 2 wires is a lot easier than building one out of copper, plywood, glass and paint. With solar panels costing only 25 cents per watt (on a good deal) then the investment in 4 panels (800W) is ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)
There was a time when solar thermal and its 70% efficiency made sense, because PV cost too much. But that time has passed. I think that PV is now better than solar thermal. There are a lot of hidden costs and difficulties putting a thermal collector on one's roof. There is a bunch of piping that not everyone wants to be obvious or cobbled looking. You have to poke holes into your attic and elsewhere. It needs to be insulated and to not break in the winter. You have to have pumps and valves and drains. You need a special water heater, and it needs electric backup anyway. You have to own ladders and be able to work safely with them. You have to be more than just a little handy. There are HOA and building quality requirements for proper design and installation. It takes up space where PV could go. Or you can mount a few relativity inexpensive arrays and wire them up. There is of course where to put the wire. Much easier to do a neat and tidy job, no leaks through the roof, no fancy heater with a heat exchanger. The business of building and installing solar thermal collectors is just about done in because of the constantly falling cost of PV. Solar thermal ends up more complicated, expensive, and has more opportunity for error. I thought Robert's solutions were attractive. I provided certified and custom testing for solar thermal collectors for 5 years. I am handy enough, but I would go with PV, not thermal. Far too much trouble the thermal business. On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:51 PM Jan Steinman via EV wrote: > > From: Robert Bruninga > > > > … using about 4 Solar panels > > for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good idea. You need hot > water > > every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4 or so > > panels. > > Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water! > > Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar energy. > Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing, plywood, > glass, and some flat-black spray paint. > > Jan > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet, Google Phone and Text -- next part ------ An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190717/bc73aa0e/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fixing horn honking on Spark EV
EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 17 Jul 2019 at 23:30, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: Biggest issue is that strongish Radio signals trigger the computer to think the horn button is pressed That makes me wonder what else strong RF might cause the computer to do. Blowing the horn is annoying but usually relatively harmless. For example, changing brake modulation would be a lot more ... shall we say ... troublesome. Security researchers have been warning about this problem for years. All sorts of cars have been "cracked" via the car's wireless network to make it do all sorts of things. -- In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous) -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fixing horn honking on Spark EV
On 17 Jul 2019 at 23:30, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: > Biggest issue is that strongish Radio signals trigger the computer to think > the horn button is pressed That makes me wonder what else strong RF might cause the computer to do. Blowing the horn is annoying but usually relatively harmless. For example, changing brake modulation would be a lot more ... shall we say ... troublesome. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fixing horn honking on Spark EV
Problem is not only FOB. Biggest issue is that strongish Radio signals trigger the computer to think the horn button is pressed and results in horn honking when an officer radios in to HQ, or some motorcyclists use their two way radios or the police station calls out to a remote cruiser... That is why he cut the computer output to the horn and switched to a good oldfashioned mechanical button... On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 11:16 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > Wouldn't it have been easier to put your fob in a mint tin when not in > use? Lawrence Rhodes > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190717/40e9cf2d/attachment.html > > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190717/94646c82/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fixing horn honking on Spark EV
On 7/17/19 3:59 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: Wouldn't it have been easier to put your fob in a mint tin when not in use? The car challenged his authority/superiority. He met the challenge admirably. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fixing horn honking on Spark EV
Wouldn't it have been easier to put your fob in a mint tin when not in use? Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190717/40e9cf2d/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)
Inefficent yes, but hooking up 2 wires is a lot easier than building one out of copper, plywood, glass and paint. With solar panels costing only 25 cents per watt (on a good deal) then the investment in 4 panels (800W) is about $275 and totally maintenance free. Where as cobbling together one will only work in the summer, or if you want to use antifreeze, then you have to add pumps and heat exchangers, etc. And will it work 20 years without any attention? But you are right. You can triple the efficiency with a modern heatpump water heater, BUT then it wont run on DC, so then you have to have 4 times more panels and then do the grid-tie-only-when-running trick, and it simply is not worth it. Better to just bight the bullet and be grid tied. Oh, I assume you have seen the articles that thermal solar hot water heating was dead in 2008 and now is considered dead-dead-dead. It is more efficient and economical to do grid-tie solar and a heatpump water heater. Because since 2005, price of PV panels has dropped ten to one and heatpump water heater is 3 times more efficient. (combined, then is 30 times more cost effective than it used to be. Plus, the biggie, is that for every drop of hot water you do not use, then you still get full 100% retail value for your solar energy. Whereas with thermal solar, unless you use 100% of your hot water every single day, then your thermal panels are doing nothing once the tank is hot. Bob -Original Message- From: EV On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating) > From: Robert Bruninga > > … using about 4 Solar panels > for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good idea. You need hot > water every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4 > or so panels. Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water! Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar energy. Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing, plywood, glass, and some flat-black spray paint. Jan ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)
> From: Robert Bruninga > > … using about 4 Solar panels > for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good idea. You need hot water > every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4 or so > panels. Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water! Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar energy. Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing, plywood, glass, and some flat-black spray paint. Jan ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
