Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Willie via EV]

On 3/17/20 6:28 PM, Neal, Gary via EV wrote:

I've thought about this while supercharging my Tesla.  There are situations 
where I would be ok using a supercharger a little slower than full bore with 
the goal of reducing battery damage.  For example, if we wanted to have a 
leisurely meal while charging.  I know that occupies a supercharger longer, but 
it also doesn't damage the battery as much.  Right now, there doesn't seem to 
be a method to reduce Tesla supercharging speed, right?


You can slow the battery charge a bit by running your climate.  Open 
windows and run heat full on.  It's not worth the trouble.  With Teslas, 
SuperCharging is just not a significant issue.  Tesla has said so and 
those Tesloop cars went hundreds of thousands of miles charging nearly 
solely on SuperChargers.


It seems Tesla does a good job of preserving the batteries in the face 
of what might be termed "abuse".  Though I use SuperChargers only on 
trips.  My 2013 S has 133k miles and has seen a steady decline of 
SuperCharge power.  Down from ~120kw to around 80kw now.  My 2018 3 with 
only 30+k miles still charges at up to 140kw where available; I've never 
encountered a working 250kw SuperCharger, only 120kw and 150kw.  Neither 
car has alarming capacity reduction.


I work on the assumption that battery damage is proportional to the time 
spent at 100% charge level.  When I feel I might need a 100% charge, I 
top off within an hour of departure.  I have seen people set up a 100% 
charge the night before departure, leaving the car at 100% for as long 
as ~8 hours.


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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Neal, Gary via EV]

I've thought about this while supercharging my Tesla.  There are situations 
where I would be ok using a supercharger a little slower than full bore with 
the goal of reducing battery damage.  For example, if we wanted to have a 
leisurely meal while charging.  I know that occupies a supercharger longer, but 
it also doesn't damage the battery as much.  Right now, there doesn't seem to 
be a method to reduce Tesla supercharging speed, right?

Thanks,
Gary

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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

For many years I've read that high current charging depreciates any battery 
faster than lower current charging.  The exception is lead batteries, where 
some (possibly short) period of initial high current "slam" can actually 
extend cycle life. Back in the 1990s, Hawker used to recommend 1C to 2C for 
their Genesis range.

Renault have added (optional) CCS charging to the Zoe for 2020.  However, 
they're limiting it to 50kW.  That seems low, with 150kW to 350kW DC 
charging wandering onto the scene these days.

Some previous Zoe models supported 3-phase AC charging at 43kW, so this is 
only 20% more.  Even though Renault use different cells from Nissan despite 
the two companies being joined at the hip, I suspect that they have a good 
reason to proceed with caution.

I wouldn't want to fast-charge any more often than absolutely necessary.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Yes, unfortunate and well known (as well as outrageous, IMO).

But would it have been worse if you used DC charging more than once a week, as 
they warned against?


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Mar 17, 2020, at 12:54 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 3/17/20 12:26 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> Was Nissan trying to scare people when they warned against fast charging too 
>> often? Just CYA?
> 
> I did not pay for the chademo port on my 2011 yet it's battery died a VERY 
> early death. 2 years, 25k miles. "Normal" says Nissan.
> 
> Other Leaf owners, smarter than I, chademoed their early batteries to death 
> and got, in some cases, replacements with "lizards".
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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Bob Bath via EV]

On the flip side, my 2013 is the only model that can be programmed to take an 
80%, as opposed to 100 charge, and I’ve only lost 1 power bar in 7 ys. 
   BTW, it’s for sale for 9k in So OR, as I’ve got the hotties to do a Bolt 
with quite a bit more range. 

Sincerely, 
Bob Bath

Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 54 y.o. 
vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not 
cluelessness. 


> On Mar 17, 2020, at 10:26 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Was Nissan trying to scare people when they warned against fast charging too 
> often? Just CYA?
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Mar 17, 2020, at 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks ! So, is it reasonably safe to say, especially with Tesla, that the 
>> BMS is preventing the kind of excess rapid charging demonstrated in the 
>> article ? It seems preposterous that significant damage is occurring to EV 
>> batteries. (I know it will cause slow, long term damage.) In which case, the 
>> article is intended to scare people and, perhaps, funded by you know who. I 
>> looked at the article again, but there's nothing ominous in the funding list.
>> 
>> Insomnia: I laugh. When I was in high school, if I had insomnia (rarely), I 
>> remember I simply opened my history book and was asleep in a few minutes. (I 
>> really enjoy history, now, by the way.)
>> 
>> Peri
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Peter C. Thompson via EV" 
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: "Peter C. Thompson" 
>> Sent: 17-Mar-20 8:51:08 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)
>> 
>>> Ah, finally, an area where I am an expert. :)
>>> 
>>> The communication is defined in ISO 15118-2, the transport layers are in 
>>> 15118-3 (PLC) and 15118-8 (wifi). No one is using the wifi version for DC - 
>>> only for wireless power.
>>> 
>>> However, nowhere in the spec does the battery temp get sent. There is a 
>>> warning when the battery is over temp, but that's about it.
>>> Most of the time, the job of protecting the battery is the BMS. The BMS 
>>> tells the EV-side charger how much power it can accept, and when to 
>>> throttle power.
>>> 
>>> Part of this is that the OEMs think that any info about the battery is 
>>> confidential information.  Which is why SoC is optional, and not always 
>>> sent to the charger.
>>> 
>>> And yes, you are absolutely correct, Peri:  you DON'T want to read these 
>>> specs... they are a very good cure for insomnia.
>>> 
>>> Cheers, Peter
>>> 
 On 3/17/20 7:05 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
 Do you know more, yourself ? I don't really want to study the spec :)
 Peri
 
 -- Original Message --
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Home Oxygen Generator?

[jkenny23 via EV]

I have a very small PEM (proton exchange membrane) fuel cell from a hydrogen
fuel cell science kit I got when I was much younger. I wonder if it is any
more efficient at converting water/electricity into H2/O2. You could
theoretically just capture the H2 it produces, then feed it back to the PEM
fuel cell with the other input being atmospheric (20%) oxygen, and let it do
its work to recharge a battery. I'm sure there would be a ton of conversion
losses in this process, but maybe you could get 20% or so of energy back
that would have been wasted. There are larger PEM materials available for
sale but they're pretty expensive. I haven't seen any "medium" sized ones
around for sale.

--
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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Willie via EV]

On 3/17/20 12:26 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Was Nissan trying to scare people when they warned against fast charging too 
often? Just CYA?


I did not pay for the chademo port on my 2011 yet it's battery died a 
VERY early death. 2 years, 25k miles. "Normal" says Nissan.


Other Leaf owners, smarter than I, chademoed their early batteries to 
death and got, in some cases, replacements with "lizards".

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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Was Nissan trying to scare people when they warned against fast charging too 
often? Just CYA?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Mar 17, 2020, at 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Thanks ! So, is it reasonably safe to say, especially with Tesla, that the 
> BMS is preventing the kind of excess rapid charging demonstrated in the 
> article ? It seems preposterous that significant damage is occurring to EV 
> batteries. (I know it will cause slow, long term damage.) In which case, the 
> article is intended to scare people and, perhaps, funded by you know who. I 
> looked at the article again, but there's nothing ominous in the funding list.
> 
> Insomnia: I laugh. When I was in high school, if I had insomnia (rarely), I 
> remember I simply opened my history book and was asleep in a few minutes. (I 
> really enjoy history, now, by the way.)
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Peter C. Thompson via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Peter C. Thompson" 
> Sent: 17-Mar-20 8:51:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)
> 
>> Ah, finally, an area where I am an expert. :)
>> 
>> The communication is defined in ISO 15118-2, the transport layers are in 
>> 15118-3 (PLC) and 15118-8 (wifi). No one is using the wifi version for DC - 
>> only for wireless power.
>> 
>> However, nowhere in the spec does the battery temp get sent. There is a 
>> warning when the battery is over temp, but that's about it.
>> Most of the time, the job of protecting the battery is the BMS. The BMS 
>> tells the EV-side charger how much power it can accept, and when to throttle 
>> power.
>> 
>> Part of this is that the OEMs think that any info about the battery is 
>> confidential information.  Which is why SoC is optional, and not always sent 
>> to the charger.
>> 
>> And yes, you are absolutely correct, Peri:  you DON'T want to read these 
>> specs... they are a very good cure for insomnia.
>> 
>> Cheers, Peter
>> 
>>> On 3/17/20 7:05 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>> Do you know more, yourself ? I don't really want to study the spec :)
>>> Peri
>>> 
>>> -- Original Message --

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Re: [EVDL] Home Oxygen Generator?

[Lee Hart via EV]

David Kerzel via EV wrote:

The 1.4 grams is the amount of oxygen that can dissolve in a liter of water.
Water is about 89% oxygen by weight so a liter of water would electrolysis
to 890 grams of 0xygen.

If I recall, this is a very inefficient way to get oxygen due to the strong
bonds in water.


Yes indeed! Electrolysis is only practical if you have essentially free 
electricity; or if you happen to need the hydrogen and/or all the waste 
heat.


For instance, an electric water heater could also produce a small amount 
of oxygen by electrolysis, since the heat is what you really wanted anyway.


Lee Hart

--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do these great deeds, worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[paul dove via EV]

DC fast chargers use HCL defined in ISO 15118-8 Specification.

Volume eight is the physical and data link layer

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:42 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> I thought the level 3 chargers took into account cell temperature and other 
> conditions. I know, for example, that my almost 10 year old Leaf battery 
> charges at only about 10kw now. Something is communicating.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "evln via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "evln" 
> Sent: 16-Mar-20 12:57:21 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)
> 
>> 
>> 
>> https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/03/11/fast-charging-damages-electric-car-batteries
>> Fast-charging damages electric car batteries
>> Commercial fast-charging stations subject electric car batteries to high
>> temperatures and high resistance that can cause them to crack, leak, and
>> lose their ...
>> https://news.ucr.edu/sites/g/files/rcwecm1816/files/styles/news_article_featured_l/public/2020-03/broken%20Tesla%20battery.jpg
>> 
>> 
>> +
>> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-03-03/southern-california-ev-jobs
>> The electric-vehicle industry is thriving in Southern California, report
>> says
>> 2020-03-03  California is already a world leader in the embryonic electric
>> vehicle industry but needs more government help to flourish, according to a
>> new report from the Los ...
>> https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/b3308bf/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1152+0+0/resize/840x473!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0f%2F14%2F66195340cd40e6cdeb681fd96501%2Fla-1497909600-8tndt61ti7-snap-image
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
>> http://www.evdl.org/archive/
>> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
>> 
>> 
>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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[EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Jim Waite via EV]

Hi All,

[The following is perhaps only of (any?) interest to Leaf owners, my apologies 
for wasting everyone else's time)]:

Our 2011 Leaf (56K miles) just this week started reporting 5 (white) bars (& 2 
red, which Nissan says is “7 bars”). 

Prior to ending my daily 60 mile roundtrip commute ~4 years ago, I did a 50% 
mix of level 1 (at work) & level 2 (at home) charging, & had performed less 
than a handful of level 3/DC charging (mostly just to try out the rare DC 
chargers in our area). With one notable exception*, I have to say the first 3-4 
years was a VERY positive & trouble-free driving experience. The last 5 years 
has been “OK” (if not for a longing of one of Mr. Musks fine vehicles...and yes 
Musk Meister, me & this list do say, “your welcome”...)

AFAIR, the first bar (& range) loss wasn’t until ~4 years ago (at ~40K miles). 
I went to our local dealer ahead of the 6-year warranty period, and even though 
replacement battery packs had been quoted in the $4.5K-$5K range, I was ”double 
smacked” in the face with 1.) my OBD ”evidence” showing level 3 charging, AND 
2.) newly revised replacement packs would now run between$7.5K-$9K (dealer 
dependent).

I have since avoided level 3 charging and the range degradation continues to 
relatively gradual. The Leaf “guessometer” consistently showed 107 miles during 
the first 2 years, & it now shows ~45-50 miles (depending on outside temp).

Bottom line: For a 9 year old vehicle, it’s still a usable “grocery getter“ & 
for local errands. My original plan, however, was to “simply” (& affordably!) 
replace the traction battery (every 3-4 years?) through a dealer has sadly been 
dashed [Old news to this list for sure, but as a relatively early adopter, and 
otherwise avid EV’r, the bitter taste in my mouth for Nissan will likely never 
go away.]

*shortly after taking delivery & with less than 4K miles, one of the pack cells 
shorted out. The dashboard lit up like an F-18 on fire & the telematics said to 
procede to the dealer ASAP! Since this was one of the first Leafs delivered on 
the West Coast reporting a problem, a Nissan team was brought in to analyze & 
assist the local dealer in dropping & replacing 2 shorted cells in the pack. 
This early event had no (zero, none, nada) effect on my later claims to Nissan 
to replace the battery pack at no or at least reduced cost

Best regards,
Jim Waite
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Re: [EVDL] Home Oxygen Generator?

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: Cliff Crabtree 
> 
> Here is a link to a high level description of how they work.

I have one somewhere that someone gave me that doesn't work very well.

Apparently, the "molecular sieve" is consumable, and must be replaced 
periodically, and is a fair portion of the cost of the whole machine.

 There is an economic limit beyond which oil is left underground. -- Kjell 
Aleklett  
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] Home Oxygen Generator?

[David Kerzel via EV]

The oxygen concentrators use Zeolite; it absorbs nitrogen under pressure;
the result is air at over 90% oxygen.  The pressure is dropped and the
nitrogen escapes into the room and the process happens again.  If you were
in the tire business, this is how you get the nitrogen for tires and exhaust
the oxygen.

The 1.4 grams is the amount of oxygen that can dissolve in a liter of water.
Water is about 89% oxygen by weight so a liter of water would electrolysis
to 890 grams of 0xygen.

If I recall, this is a very inefficient way to get oxygen due to the strong
bonds in water.

David Kerzel

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga via EV
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 3:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Robert Bruninga 
Subject: [EVDL] Home Oxygen Generator?

HYDROGEN Fuel Question? (actually oxygen?)

As the virus spreads, and hospitals may become overloaded, I wonder how hard
it would be to build a home oxygen generator.  Just two electrodes in water
and lots of DC from the EV or solar panels or the grid.  Then venting the
hydrogen, and breathing the oxygen if needed.

Ignoring all the potential dangers (explosion of the hydrogen and poisonous
gasses from the Oxygen electrode if the wrong metal is  used.

By my rough calculations it takes about 5 kW to generate 570 liters/hour of
oxygen which is a bit over 8 liters per minute of normal breathing.

That seems very high current consupmption.  I must have made an error?
I used these google facts:
8 liters per minute for normal breathing
1.4 grams of oxygen per liter
50 kWh to generate 8 kg of oxygen.

How do those little battery powered O2 generators work?
Bob
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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

Peter,

Your link works.  Not sure why my first attempt didn't.


On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 1:17 PM Peter C. Thompson via EV
 wrote:
>
> I just tried this link:
> https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/03/11/fast-charging-damages-electric-car-batteries
>
> Seems to work for me.
>
> On 3/17/20 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:
> > The article is now linking to "Page Not Found".
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 12:52 PM Peter C. Thompson via EV
> >  wrote:
> >> Hi Peri,
> >>
> >> I don't have personal experience with Tesla, but I do with other OEMs.
> >> It is very safe to say that the BMS is preventing just that sort of
> >> problem.
> >>
> >> When I read the article, it was about testing to destruction, not about
> >> how to do safe, long-term charging.  Yeah, FUD again.
> >>
> >> I agree that reading history NOW is much more enjoyable, probably
> >> because we aren't reading those "sanitized" history books from high
> >> school. :)
> >>
> >> Cheers!
> >>
> >> On 3/17/20 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman wrote:
> >>> Thanks ! So, is it reasonably safe to say, especially with Tesla, that
> >>> the BMS is preventing the kind of excess rapid charging demonstrated
> >>> in the article ? It seems preposterous that significant damage is
> >>> occurring to EV batteries. (I know it will cause slow, long term
> >>> damage.) In which case, the article is intended to scare people and,
> >>> perhaps, funded by you know who. I looked at the article again, but
> >>> there's nothing ominous in the funding list.
> >>>
> >>> Insomnia: I laugh. When I was in high school, if I had insomnia
> >>> (rarely), I remember I simply opened my history book and was asleep in
> >>> a few minutes. (I really enjoy history, now, by the way.)
> >>>
> >>> Peri
> >>>
> >>> -- Original Message --
> >>> From: "Peter C. Thompson via EV" 
> >>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >>> Cc: "Peter C. Thompson" 
> >>> Sent: 17-Mar-20 8:51:08 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)
> >>>
>  Ah, finally, an area where I am an expert. :)
> 
>  The communication is defined in ISO 15118-2, the transport layers are
>  in 15118-3 (PLC) and 15118-8 (wifi). No one is using the wifi version
>  for DC - only for wireless power.
> 
>  However, nowhere in the spec does the battery temp get sent. There is
>  a warning when the battery is over temp, but that's about it.
>  Most of the time, the job of protecting the battery is the BMS. The
>  BMS tells the EV-side charger how much power it can accept, and when
>  to throttle power.
> 
>  Part of this is that the OEMs think that any info about the battery
>  is confidential information.  Which is why SoC is optional, and not
>  always sent to the charger.
> 
>  And yes, you are absolutely correct, Peri:  you DON'T want to read
>  these specs... they are a very good cure for insomnia.
> 
>  Cheers, Peter
> 
>  On 3/17/20 7:05 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> > Do you know more, yourself ? I don't really want to study the spec :)
> > Peri
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "paul dove" 
> > To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> > List" 
> > Sent: 17-Mar-20 4:52:28 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or
> > anti-EV-hype?)
> >
> >> DC fast chargers use HCL defined in ISO 15118-8 Specification.
> >>
> >> Volume eight is the physical and data link layer
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:42 PM, Peri Hartman via EV
> >>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I thought the level 3 chargers took into account cell temperature
> >>> and other conditions. I know, for example, that my almost 10 year
> >>> old Leaf battery charges at only about 10kw now. Something is
> >>> communicating.
> >>>
> >>> Peri
> >>>
> >>> -- Original Message --
> >>> From: "evln via EV" 
> >>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >>> Cc: "evln" 
> >>> Sent: 16-Mar-20 12:57:21 PM
> >>> Subject: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)
> >>>
> 
>  https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/03/11/fast-charging-damages-electric-car-batteries
> 
>  Fast-charging damages electric car batteries
>  Commercial fast-charging stations subject electric car batteries
>  to high
>  temperatures and high resistance that can cause them to crack,
>  leak, and
>  lose their ...
>  https://news.ucr.edu/sites/g/files/rcwecm1816/files/styles/news_article_featured_l/public/2020-03/broken%20Tesla%20battery.jpg
> 
> 
> 
>  +
>  https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-03-03/southern-california-ev-jobs
> 
>  The electric-vehicle industry is thriving in Southern California,
>  report
>  says
>  

Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[jim--- via EV]

The link worked just fine for me.  I find that their results are astoundingly 
bad.  Even with their "better" charging method, they claim a battery is end of 
life after 36 charge cycles.  Excuse me!  Anyone else find that not quite 
right?  I wonder what they were doing to those poor batteries to get that poor 
of a lifetime.


Jim Walls
j...@k6ccc.org


-Original Message-
From: "Peter Eckhoff via EV" 
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 10:03
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Peter Eckhoff" 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

The article is now linking to "Page Not Found".


On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 12:52 PM Peter C. Thompson via EV
 wrote:
>
> Hi Peri,
>
> I don't have personal experience with Tesla, but I do with other OEMs.
> It is very safe to say that the BMS is preventing just that sort of
> problem.
>
> When I read the article, it was about testing to destruction, not about
> how to do safe, long-term charging.  Yeah, FUD again.
>
> I agree that reading history NOW is much more enjoyable, probably
> because we aren't reading those "sanitized" history books from high
> school. :)
>
> Cheers!
>
> On 3/17/20 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman wrote:
> > Thanks ! So, is it reasonably safe to say, especially with Tesla, that
> > the BMS is preventing the kind of excess rapid charging demonstrated
> > in the article ? It seems preposterous that significant damage is
> > occurring to EV batteries. (I know it will cause slow, long term
> > damage.) In which case, the article is intended to scare people and,
> > perhaps, funded by you know who. I looked at the article again, but
> > there's nothing ominous in the funding list.
> >
> > Insomnia: I laugh. When I was in high school, if I had insomnia
> > (rarely), I remember I simply opened my history book and was asleep in
> > a few minutes. (I really enjoy history, now, by the way.)
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Peter C. Thompson via EV" 
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Cc: "Peter C. Thompson" 
> > Sent: 17-Mar-20 8:51:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)
> >
> >> Ah, finally, an area where I am an expert. :)
> >>
> >> The communication is defined in ISO 15118-2, the transport layers are
> >> in 15118-3 (PLC) and 15118-8 (wifi). No one is using the wifi version
> >> for DC - only for wireless power.
> >>
> >> However, nowhere in the spec does the battery temp get sent. There is
> >> a warning when the battery is over temp, but that's about it.
> >> Most of the time, the job of protecting the battery is the BMS. The
> >> BMS tells the EV-side charger how much power it can accept, and when
> >> to throttle power.
> >>
> >> Part of this is that the OEMs think that any info about the battery
> >> is confidential information.  Which is why SoC is optional, and not
> >> always sent to the charger.
> >>
> >> And yes, you are absolutely correct, Peri:  you DON'T want to read
> >> these specs... they are a very good cure for insomnia.
> >>
> >> Cheers, Peter
> >>
> >> On 3/17/20 7:05 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >>> Do you know more, yourself ? I don't really want to study the spec :)
> >>> Peri
> >>>
> >>> -- Original Message --
> >>> From: "paul dove" 
> >>> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> >>> List" 
> >>> Sent: 17-Mar-20 4:52:28 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or
> >>> anti-EV-hype?)
> >>>
>  DC fast chargers use HCL defined in ISO 15118-8 Specification.
> 
>  Volume eight is the physical and data link layer
> 
>  Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:42 PM, Peri Hartman via EV
> >  wrote:
> >
> > I thought the level 3 chargers took into account cell temperature
> > and other conditions. I know, for example, that my almost 10 year
> > old Leaf battery charges at only about 10kw now. Something is
> > communicating.
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "evln via EV" 
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Cc: "evln" 
> > Sent: 16-Mar-20 12:57:21 PM
> > Subject: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/03/11/fast-charging-damages-electric-car-batteries
> >>
> >> Fast-charging damages electric car batteries
> >> Commercial fast-charging stations subject electric car batteries
> >> to high
> >> temperatures and high resistance that can cause them to crack,
> >> leak, and
> >> lose their ...
> >> https://news.ucr.edu/sites/g/files/rcwecm1816/files/styles/news_article_featured_l/public/2020-03/broken%20Tesla%20battery.jpg
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> +
> >> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-03-03/southern-california-ev-jobs
> >>
> >> The electric-vehicle industry is thriving in Southern California,
> >> report
> >> says

Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Peter C. Thompson via EV]

I just tried this link: 
https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/03/11/fast-charging-damages-electric-car-batteries


Seems to work for me.

On 3/17/20 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

The article is now linking to "Page Not Found".


On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 12:52 PM Peter C. Thompson via EV
 wrote:

Hi Peri,

I don't have personal experience with Tesla, but I do with other OEMs.
It is very safe to say that the BMS is preventing just that sort of
problem.

When I read the article, it was about testing to destruction, not about
how to do safe, long-term charging.  Yeah, FUD again.

I agree that reading history NOW is much more enjoyable, probably
because we aren't reading those "sanitized" history books from high
school. :)

Cheers!

On 3/17/20 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman wrote:

Thanks ! So, is it reasonably safe to say, especially with Tesla, that
the BMS is preventing the kind of excess rapid charging demonstrated
in the article ? It seems preposterous that significant damage is
occurring to EV batteries. (I know it will cause slow, long term
damage.) In which case, the article is intended to scare people and,
perhaps, funded by you know who. I looked at the article again, but
there's nothing ominous in the funding list.

Insomnia: I laugh. When I was in high school, if I had insomnia
(rarely), I remember I simply opened my history book and was asleep in
a few minutes. (I really enjoy history, now, by the way.)

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Peter C. Thompson via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Peter C. Thompson" 
Sent: 17-Mar-20 8:51:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)


Ah, finally, an area where I am an expert. :)

The communication is defined in ISO 15118-2, the transport layers are
in 15118-3 (PLC) and 15118-8 (wifi). No one is using the wifi version
for DC - only for wireless power.

However, nowhere in the spec does the battery temp get sent. There is
a warning when the battery is over temp, but that's about it.
Most of the time, the job of protecting the battery is the BMS. The
BMS tells the EV-side charger how much power it can accept, and when
to throttle power.

Part of this is that the OEMs think that any info about the battery
is confidential information.  Which is why SoC is optional, and not
always sent to the charger.

And yes, you are absolutely correct, Peri:  you DON'T want to read
these specs... they are a very good cure for insomnia.

Cheers, Peter

On 3/17/20 7:05 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Do you know more, yourself ? I don't really want to study the spec :)
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" 
Sent: 17-Mar-20 4:52:28 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or
anti-EV-hype?)


DC fast chargers use HCL defined in ISO 15118-8 Specification.

Volume eight is the physical and data link layer

Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:42 PM, Peri Hartman via EV
 wrote:

I thought the level 3 chargers took into account cell temperature
and other conditions. I know, for example, that my almost 10 year
old Leaf battery charges at only about 10kw now. Something is
communicating.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "evln via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "evln" 
Sent: 16-Mar-20 12:57:21 PM
Subject: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)



https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/03/11/fast-charging-damages-electric-car-batteries

Fast-charging damages electric car batteries
Commercial fast-charging stations subject electric car batteries
to high
temperatures and high resistance that can cause them to crack,
leak, and
lose their ...
https://news.ucr.edu/sites/g/files/rcwecm1816/files/styles/news_article_featured_l/public/2020-03/broken%20Tesla%20battery.jpg



+
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-03-03/southern-california-ev-jobs

The electric-vehicle industry is thriving in Southern California,
report
says
2020-03-03  California is already a world leader in the embryonic
electric
vehicle industry but needs more government help to flourish,
according to a
new report from the Los ...
https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/b3308bf/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1152+0+0/resize/840x473!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0f%2F14%2F66195340cd40e6cdeb681fd96501%2Fla-1497909600-8tndt61ti7-snap-image






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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

The article is now linking to "Page Not Found".


On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 12:52 PM Peter C. Thompson via EV
 wrote:
>
> Hi Peri,
>
> I don't have personal experience with Tesla, but I do with other OEMs.
> It is very safe to say that the BMS is preventing just that sort of
> problem.
>
> When I read the article, it was about testing to destruction, not about
> how to do safe, long-term charging.  Yeah, FUD again.
>
> I agree that reading history NOW is much more enjoyable, probably
> because we aren't reading those "sanitized" history books from high
> school. :)
>
> Cheers!
>
> On 3/17/20 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman wrote:
> > Thanks ! So, is it reasonably safe to say, especially with Tesla, that
> > the BMS is preventing the kind of excess rapid charging demonstrated
> > in the article ? It seems preposterous that significant damage is
> > occurring to EV batteries. (I know it will cause slow, long term
> > damage.) In which case, the article is intended to scare people and,
> > perhaps, funded by you know who. I looked at the article again, but
> > there's nothing ominous in the funding list.
> >
> > Insomnia: I laugh. When I was in high school, if I had insomnia
> > (rarely), I remember I simply opened my history book and was asleep in
> > a few minutes. (I really enjoy history, now, by the way.)
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Peter C. Thompson via EV" 
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Cc: "Peter C. Thompson" 
> > Sent: 17-Mar-20 8:51:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)
> >
> >> Ah, finally, an area where I am an expert. :)
> >>
> >> The communication is defined in ISO 15118-2, the transport layers are
> >> in 15118-3 (PLC) and 15118-8 (wifi). No one is using the wifi version
> >> for DC - only for wireless power.
> >>
> >> However, nowhere in the spec does the battery temp get sent. There is
> >> a warning when the battery is over temp, but that's about it.
> >> Most of the time, the job of protecting the battery is the BMS. The
> >> BMS tells the EV-side charger how much power it can accept, and when
> >> to throttle power.
> >>
> >> Part of this is that the OEMs think that any info about the battery
> >> is confidential information.  Which is why SoC is optional, and not
> >> always sent to the charger.
> >>
> >> And yes, you are absolutely correct, Peri:  you DON'T want to read
> >> these specs... they are a very good cure for insomnia.
> >>
> >> Cheers, Peter
> >>
> >> On 3/17/20 7:05 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >>> Do you know more, yourself ? I don't really want to study the spec :)
> >>> Peri
> >>>
> >>> -- Original Message --
> >>> From: "paul dove" 
> >>> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> >>> List" 
> >>> Sent: 17-Mar-20 4:52:28 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or
> >>> anti-EV-hype?)
> >>>
>  DC fast chargers use HCL defined in ISO 15118-8 Specification.
> 
>  Volume eight is the physical and data link layer
> 
>  Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:42 PM, Peri Hartman via EV
> >  wrote:
> >
> > I thought the level 3 chargers took into account cell temperature
> > and other conditions. I know, for example, that my almost 10 year
> > old Leaf battery charges at only about 10kw now. Something is
> > communicating.
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "evln via EV" 
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Cc: "evln" 
> > Sent: 16-Mar-20 12:57:21 PM
> > Subject: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/03/11/fast-charging-damages-electric-car-batteries
> >>
> >> Fast-charging damages electric car batteries
> >> Commercial fast-charging stations subject electric car batteries
> >> to high
> >> temperatures and high resistance that can cause them to crack,
> >> leak, and
> >> lose their ...
> >> https://news.ucr.edu/sites/g/files/rcwecm1816/files/styles/news_article_featured_l/public/2020-03/broken%20Tesla%20battery.jpg
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> +
> >> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-03-03/southern-california-ev-jobs
> >>
> >> The electric-vehicle industry is thriving in Southern California,
> >> report
> >> says
> >> 2020-03-03  California is already a world leader in the embryonic
> >> electric
> >> vehicle industry but needs more government help to flourish,
> >> according to a
> >> new report from the Los ...
> >> https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/b3308bf/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1152+0+0/resize/840x473!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0f%2F14%2F66195340cd40e6cdeb681fd96501%2Fla-1497909600-8tndt61ti7-snap-image
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
>
> 

Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Paul Compton via EV]

gt;electric
> >>>>>vehicle industry but needs more government help to flourish, according 
> >>>>>to a
> >>>>>new report from the Los ...
> >>>>>https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/b3308bf/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1152+0+0/resize/840x473!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0f%2F14%2F66195340cd40e6cdeb681fd96501%2Fla-1497909600-8tndt61ti7-snap-image
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
> >>>>>http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> >>>>>https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>{brucedp.neocities.org}
> >>>>>
> >>>>>-- Sent from: 
> >>>>>http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> >>>>>___
> >>>>>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>>>>ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> >>>>>INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >>>>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
> >>>>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>___
> >>>>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>>>ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> >>>>INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >>>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
> >>>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>>>
> >>-- next part --
> >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>URL: 
> >><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200317/3f454e14/attachment.html>
> >>___
> >>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> >>INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>
> >
> >___
> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> >INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>


-- 
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Peter C. Thompson via EV]

Hi Peri,

I don't have personal experience with Tesla, but I do with other OEMs. 
It is very safe to say that the BMS is preventing just that sort of 
problem.


When I read the article, it was about testing to destruction, not about 
how to do safe, long-term charging.  Yeah, FUD again.


I agree that reading history NOW is much more enjoyable, probably 
because we aren't reading those "sanitized" history books from high 
school. :)


Cheers!

On 3/17/20 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman wrote:
Thanks ! So, is it reasonably safe to say, especially with Tesla, that 
the BMS is preventing the kind of excess rapid charging demonstrated 
in the article ? It seems preposterous that significant damage is 
occurring to EV batteries. (I know it will cause slow, long term 
damage.) In which case, the article is intended to scare people and, 
perhaps, funded by you know who. I looked at the article again, but 
there's nothing ominous in the funding list.


Insomnia: I laugh. When I was in high school, if I had insomnia 
(rarely), I remember I simply opened my history book and was asleep in 
a few minutes. (I really enjoy history, now, by the way.)


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Peter C. Thompson via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Peter C. Thompson" 
Sent: 17-Mar-20 8:51:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)


Ah, finally, an area where I am an expert. :)

The communication is defined in ISO 15118-2, the transport layers are 
in 15118-3 (PLC) and 15118-8 (wifi). No one is using the wifi version 
for DC - only for wireless power.


However, nowhere in the spec does the battery temp get sent. There is 
a warning when the battery is over temp, but that's about it.
Most of the time, the job of protecting the battery is the BMS. The 
BMS tells the EV-side charger how much power it can accept, and when 
to throttle power.


Part of this is that the OEMs think that any info about the battery 
is confidential information.  Which is why SoC is optional, and not 
always sent to the charger.


And yes, you are absolutely correct, Peri:  you DON'T want to read 
these specs... they are a very good cure for insomnia.


Cheers, Peter

On 3/17/20 7:05 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Do you know more, yourself ? I don't really want to study the spec :)
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 17-Mar-20 4:52:28 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or 
anti-EV-hype?)



DC fast chargers use HCL defined in ISO 15118-8 Specification.

Volume eight is the physical and data link layer

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:42 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:


I thought the level 3 chargers took into account cell temperature 
and other conditions. I know, for example, that my almost 10 year 
old Leaf battery charges at only about 10kw now. Something is 
communicating.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "evln via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "evln" 
Sent: 16-Mar-20 12:57:21 PM
Subject: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)




https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/03/11/fast-charging-damages-electric-car-batteries 


Fast-charging damages electric car batteries
Commercial fast-charging stations subject electric car batteries 
to high
temperatures and high resistance that can cause them to crack, 
leak, and

lose their ...
https://news.ucr.edu/sites/g/files/rcwecm1816/files/styles/news_article_featured_l/public/2020-03/broken%20Tesla%20battery.jpg 




+
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-03-03/southern-california-ev-jobs 

The electric-vehicle industry is thriving in Southern California, 
report

says
2020-03-03  California is already a world leader in the embryonic 
electric
vehicle industry but needs more government help to flourish, 
according to a

new report from the Los ...
https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/b3308bf/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1152+0+0/resize/840x473!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0f%2F14%2F66195340cd40e6cdeb681fd96501%2Fla-1497909600-8tndt61ti7-snap-image 










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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Thanks ! So, is it reasonably safe to say, especially with Tesla, that 
the BMS is preventing the kind of excess rapid charging demonstrated in 
the article ? It seems preposterous that significant damage is occurring 
to EV batteries. (I know it will cause slow, long term damage.) In which 
case, the article is intended to scare people and, perhaps, funded by 
you know who. I looked at the article again, but there's nothing ominous 
in the funding list.


Insomnia: I laugh. When I was in high school, if I had insomnia 
(rarely), I remember I simply opened my history book and was asleep in a 
few minutes. (I really enjoy history, now, by the way.)


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Peter C. Thompson via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Peter C. Thompson" 
Sent: 17-Mar-20 8:51:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or 
anti-EV-hype?)



Ah, finally, an area where I am an expert. :)

The communication is defined in ISO 15118-2, the transport layers are in 
15118-3 (PLC) and 15118-8 (wifi). No one is using the wifi version for DC - 
only for wireless power.

However, nowhere in the spec does the battery temp get sent. There is a warning 
when the battery is over temp, but that's about it.
Most of the time, the job of protecting the battery is the BMS. The BMS tells 
the EV-side charger how much power it can accept, and when to throttle power.

Part of this is that the OEMs think that any info about the battery is 
confidential information.  Which is why SoC is optional, and not always sent to 
the charger.

And yes, you are absolutely correct, Peri:  you DON'T want to read these 
specs... they are a very good cure for insomnia.

Cheers, Peter

On 3/17/20 7:05 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Do you know more, yourself ? I don't really want to study the spec :)
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

Sent: 17-Mar-20 4:52:28 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)


DC fast chargers use HCL defined in ISO 15118-8 Specification.

Volume eight is the physical and data link layer

Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:42 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

I thought the level 3 chargers took into account cell temperature and other 
conditions. I know, for example, that my almost 10 year old Leaf battery 
charges at only about 10kw now. Something is communicating.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "evln via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "evln" 
Sent: 16-Mar-20 12:57:21 PM
Subject: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)




https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/03/11/fast-charging-damages-electric-car-batteries
Fast-charging damages electric car batteries
Commercial fast-charging stations subject electric car batteries to high
temperatures and high resistance that can cause them to crack, leak, and
lose their ...
https://news.ucr.edu/sites/g/files/rcwecm1816/files/styles/news_article_featured_l/public/2020-03/broken%20Tesla%20battery.jpg


+
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-03-03/southern-california-ev-jobs
The electric-vehicle industry is thriving in Southern California, report
says
2020-03-03  California is already a world leader in the embryonic electric
vehicle industry but needs more government help to flourish, according to a
new report from the Los ...
https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/b3308bf/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1152+0+0/resize/840x473!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0f%2F14%2F66195340cd40e6cdeb681fd96501%2Fla-1497909600-8tndt61ti7-snap-image




For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Peter C. Thompson via EV]

Ah, finally, an area where I am an expert. :)

The communication is defined in ISO 15118-2, the transport layers are in 
15118-3 (PLC) and 15118-8 (wifi). No one is using the wifi version for 
DC - only for wireless power.


However, nowhere in the spec does the battery temp get sent. There is a 
warning when the battery is over temp, but that's about it.
Most of the time, the job of protecting the battery is the BMS. The BMS 
tells the EV-side charger how much power it can accept, and when to 
throttle power.


Part of this is that the OEMs think that any info about the battery is 
confidential information.  Which is why SoC is optional, and not always 
sent to the charger.


And yes, you are absolutely correct, Peri:  you DON'T want to read these 
specs... they are a very good cure for insomnia.


Cheers, Peter

On 3/17/20 7:05 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Do you know more, yourself ? I don't really want to study the spec :)
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 17-Mar-20 4:52:28 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)


DC fast chargers use HCL defined in ISO 15118-8 Specification.

Volume eight is the physical and data link layer

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:42 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:


I thought the level 3 chargers took into account cell temperature 
and other conditions. I know, for example, that my almost 10 year 
old Leaf battery charges at only about 10kw now. Something is 
communicating.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "evln via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "evln" 
Sent: 16-Mar-20 12:57:21 PM
Subject: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)




https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/03/11/fast-charging-damages-electric-car-batteries 


Fast-charging damages electric car batteries
Commercial fast-charging stations subject electric car batteries to 
high
temperatures and high resistance that can cause them to crack, 
leak, and

lose their ...
https://news.ucr.edu/sites/g/files/rcwecm1816/files/styles/news_article_featured_l/public/2020-03/broken%20Tesla%20battery.jpg 




+
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-03-03/southern-california-ev-jobs 

The electric-vehicle industry is thriving in Southern California, 
report

says
2020-03-03  California is already a world leader in the embryonic 
electric
vehicle industry but needs more government help to flourish, 
according to a

new report from the Los ...
https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/b3308bf/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1152+0+0/resize/840x473!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0f%2F14%2F66195340cd40e6cdeb681fd96501%2Fla-1497909600-8tndt61ti7-snap-image 






For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
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Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Do you know more, yourself ? I don't really want to study the spec :)
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 17-Mar-20 4:52:28 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or 
anti-EV-hype?)



DC fast chargers use HCL defined in ISO 15118-8 Specification.

Volume eight is the physical and data link layer

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:42 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:


I thought the level 3 chargers took into account cell temperature and 
other conditions. I know, for example, that my almost 10 year old Leaf 
battery charges at only about 10kw now. Something is communicating.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "evln via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "evln" 
Sent: 16-Mar-20 12:57:21 PM
Subject: [EVDL] DC charging damages EV packs (?fact or anti-EV-hype?)




https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/03/11/fast-charging-damages-electric-car-batteries
Fast-charging damages electric car batteries
Commercial fast-charging stations subject electric car batteries to 
high
temperatures and high resistance that can cause them to crack, leak, 
and

lose their ...
https://news.ucr.edu/sites/g/files/rcwecm1816/files/styles/news_article_featured_l/public/2020-03/broken%20Tesla%20battery.jpg


+
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-03-03/southern-california-ev-jobs
The electric-vehicle industry is thriving in Southern California, 
report

says
2020-03-03  California is already a world leader in the embryonic 
electric
vehicle industry but needs more government help to flourish, 
according to a

new report from the Los ...
https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/b3308bf/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1152+0+0/resize/840x473!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0f%2F14%2F66195340cd40e6cdeb681fd96501%2Fla-1497909600-8tndt61ti7-snap-image




For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: 
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Re: [EVDL] Home Oxygen Generator?

[Cliff Crabtree via EV]

Here is a link to a high level description of how they work.

https://www.oxygenconcentratorstore.com/reference-material/how-concentrators-work/#

Later

Cliff

On 3/17/20 6:52 AM, Cliff Crabtree via EV wrote:

Hi Robert,

"How do those little battery powered O2 generators work?"

If you are referring to "Inogen"  They are not actually oxygen 
genators.  Rather they are  oxygen concentrators.  They extract free 
oxygen from the air while releasing the nitrogen back into the air.



Later,
Cliff



On 3/16/20 3:54 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

HYDROGEN Fuel Question? (actually oxygen?)

As the virus spreads, and hospitals may become overloaded, I wonder how
hard it would be to build a home oxygen generator.  Just two 
electrodes in

water and lots of DC from the EV or solar panels or the grid. Then
venting the hydrogen, and breathing the oxygen if needed.

Ignoring all the potential dangers (explosion of the hydrogen and
poisonous gasses from the Oxygen electrode if the wrong metal is  used.

By my rough calculations it takes about 5 kW to generate 570 liters/hour
of oxygen which is a bit over 8 liters per minute of normal breathing.

That seems very high current consupmption.  I must have made an error?
I used these google facts:
8 liters per minute for normal breathing
1.4 grams of oxygen per liter
50 kWh to generate 8 kg of oxygen.

How do those little battery powered O2 generators work?
Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Home Oxygen Generator?

[Cliff Crabtree via EV]

Hi Robert,

"How do those little battery powered O2 generators work?"

If you are referring to "Inogen"  They are not actually oxygen genators.  
Rather they are  oxygen concentrators.  They extract free oxygen from the air while 
releasing the nitrogen back into the air.


Later,
Cliff



On 3/16/20 3:54 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

HYDROGEN Fuel Question? (actually oxygen?)

As the virus spreads, and hospitals may become overloaded, I wonder how
hard it would be to build a home oxygen generator.  Just two electrodes in
water and lots of DC from the EV or solar panels or the grid.  Then
venting the hydrogen, and breathing the oxygen if needed.

Ignoring all the potential dangers (explosion of the hydrogen and
poisonous gasses from the Oxygen electrode if the wrong metal is  used.

By my rough calculations it takes about 5 kW to generate 570 liters/hour
of oxygen which is a bit over 8 liters per minute of normal breathing.

That seems very high current consupmption.  I must have made an error?
I used these google facts:
8 liters per minute for normal breathing
1.4 grams of oxygen per liter
50 kWh to generate 8 kg of oxygen.

How do those little battery powered O2 generators work?
Bob
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[EVDL] donor car

[Shody Ryon via EV]

i have been away for a while. i don't know if donor car is still used. i 
contacted ev west about turning my auto trans 1998 volvo v70 into an ev and 
they said i should use a manual trans 1970s or older donor.i am just curious, 
not in a hurry and likely will not convert. but i like to talk and learn.i am 
curious about the 1970s or older recommendation. i'd like power windows, power 
brakes, power steering a sound system and ac. i'm thinking of getting a pre 
2014 leaf and upgrading the batteries with 18650s would these in the video 
below 
work?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKEYDNvNRGQ=z22qgjexfvzdxfm3macdp43bthxfzleq2tjvobdrjgpw03c010c.1584282128096082
thanksshody
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