Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
I actually think hydrogen from solar and wind is a good think, ICE trucks pickups etc can be converted to run hydrogen in the ICE engine, just stop making new ICE cars. Hydrogen helps in a few different ways. With petrol, it can run on a 5% mixture, so you can almost run without a throttle which makes it more efficient due to no pumping loss. In diesel, running a % of hydrogen with diesel makes for a clean exhaust and also better consumption. We going to have to live with a few ICE around for a few years. What we don't want is for this to slow down the BEV uptake, and for this end we can stop subsidizing fuel and charge road user charges. One charge with upkeep of roads and licence and even third party insurance thrown in and an additional charge for ICE that can be adjusted. -Original Message- From: EV On Behalf Of Ed Blackmond via EV Sent: Saturday, 14 August 2021 9:33 am To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Cc: Ed Blackmond Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all > On Aug 13, 2021, at 9:27 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > > At some point, we'll probably have enough large scale excess that it makes > sense to produce hydrogen with that excess. But, I believe, the primary use > for that hydrogen will be for backup grid power generation, not > transportation. At that point, we'll be able to have a 100% clean grid and a > grid capable of charging EVs across the country ! ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
> On Aug 13, 2021, at 9:27 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > > At some point, we'll probably have enough large scale excess that it makes > sense to produce hydrogen with that excess. But, I believe, the primary use > for that hydrogen will be for backup grid power generation, not > transportation. At that point, we'll be able to have a 100% clean grid and a > grid capable of charging EVs across the country ! By that point, there will be enough used batteries removed EV’s that it will make sense to use them to store the excess energy rather than producing hydrogen. My Chevy Bolt came with 60KWH battery capacity. The warranty supports it to 60% of that capacity or 36KWH. The capacity of vehicle battery packs is continuing to grow, much faster than the ability to produce green hydrogen. Vehicles have very limited physical space for a battery pack compared to grid storage systems. Renewable generation facilities from residential rooftop solar systems to huge solar and wind farms will be able to incorporate all the used vehicle battery packs. Eventually all of electricity will be renewable either directly or from storage. When cells are no longer able to support grid storage, they can be recycled with the materials going into new vehicle battery packs. Ed ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 8/13/21 3:00 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: You’ve completely ignored what I said - did you even read it? Yep, every word of it. Yes of course, hydrogen will have a role to play, but there is no getting around the fact that using Renewables to make electricity to drive cars is 10 times more efficient to drive a BEV directly (5% loss from wind/solar to the car.) compared to the 50% energy loss in making hydrogen from the same electricity. That ten times inefficiency is what makes hydrogen unsuitable as a general replacement for cars. It is just centralized big (oil) companies continuing to push their centralized big company monopolies and control of distribution and perpetuating their TANK model. About 2014, I visited a cousin in Denver. I drove my newish Tesla up there and did quite a bit of Tesla demoing. My cousin a retired teacher with still close ties to her old high school. We visited the school and did quite a bit of Tesla/EV talking as well as demoing. Her school was quite proud of a hydrogen race car thing they had been participating in for years. I delved into the details. Oil company, Shell I think, was sponsoring. Looking at a nicely built open wheel single seater on display at the school, and being told it was electric, I asked about the source of the H2. "In this little bottle". "How do you replenish?" "Put in another little bottle that the sponsor supplies". EVERYONE seemed to ignore the problem of H2 source. It was an ELECTRIC car. Just like a Tesla. They were just proud of their electric car and unaware of the problem of oil company sponsorship. Indeed, they were grateful for the sponsorship. I found the whole thing rather dishonest and disgusting. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
. > > --- > > I'm glad to see this published mainstream. People don't seem to think about the source for hydrogen, only about the the aspect of filling a tank in a few minutes and driving off. Long live EVs !!! > > Peri > > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org -- Larry Gales -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210813/9b012911/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
> You’ve completely ignored what I said - did you even read it? Yep, every word of it. Yes of course, hydrogen will have a role to play, but there is no getting around the fact that using Renewables to make electricity to drive cars is 10 times more efficient to drive a BEV directly (5% loss from wind/solar to the car.) compared to the 50% energy loss in making hydrogen from the same electricity. That ten times inefficiency is what makes hydrogen unsuitable as a general replacement for cars. It is just centralized big (oil) companies continuing to push their centralized big company monopolies and control of distribution and perpetuating their TANK model. With 400 mile EV's now (for those that need it) and 150 mile EV's for those that don't, there is no need for the huge wastefullness of hydrogen (except for maybe long haul pre-developed trucking between major distribution centers. and ONLY when we get to the 5-times oversuppply of wind/solar such that there is FREE electricity to dump into hydrogen on peak days instead of curtailing it. The high cost and inefficiency of FCEV's make little sense for general use. Bob > As far as the economics, not only will it not take a miracle to make “green” > hydrogen more economical than fossil hydrogen, but at least one company is > building production plants that they say will make it competitive in cost, > and then improve it further. The technology is improving quickly, and as the > cost of renewables drop, the production costs also drop, as that is the > biggest driver of costs. > > As far as your comment of being ahead with electricity being stored in a > battery, I think your looking at it the wrong way in two (if not more) > important ways (and I won’t even get into battery production and recycling > issues that don’t get taken into account). First, a battery doesn’t meet all > duty cycle needs, which is why for some uses you need hydrogen even if you > prefer batteries. The alternative is fossil fuel combustion in an IC engine. > That’s why most of see fuels cell electrics as complementary to BEVs, not > either/or. Secondly, and maybe more to your point, electricity, like > hydrogen, gets produced in many ways. The GREET model, which is generally > accepted as the gold standard for calculating GHG comparisons, If I’m > remembering correctly, shows both BEVs and FCEVs reducing GHGs as compared to > fossil combustion ICEs, no matter the input energy. > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > > > On Aug 13, 2021, at 5:14 AM, Bill Dube via EV wrote: > > > > Here is an article published today on "Clean Hydrogen". (Not so clean, > > according to the article. surprise surprise ) > > https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/12/clean-fuel-blue-hydrogen-coal-study > > > > From _all_ I've read, even in Scientific American, you are way ahead simply > > using plain old electricity instead of hydrogen, if you wish to curtail > > climate change. Electricity for running a vehicle is much more economic, > > and is far more ecological than hydrogen. At least for the foreseeable > > future. > > > > All but the tiniest fraction of hydrogen produced these days comes from > > fossil fuel. This is because it is by far the most economic way to produce > > hydrogen. Even so, it is _still_ far more expensive to run a car with the > > cheapest H2 than run it directly with electricity stored in batteries. > > > > Perhaps someone, somewhere, will invent some miraculous possess that will > > turn the tables completely, but that simply hasn't happened yet. > > > > The US government is going to throw another $8bn down this black hole. If > > $8bn isn't enough to buy that miracle cure, then perhaps it will be time to > > give H2 the last rites and finally move on. > > > > Bill D. > > > >> On 8/13/2021 7:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: > >> Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the > >> data. > >> > >> You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well, > >> yes, you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce > >> electricity to run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not > >> fossil-derived, and the entire industry is moving towards 100% > >> “decarbonized” hydrogen, with most believing that “green” hydrogen will be > >> everywhere very soon. > >> > >> I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but > >> the use of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for > >> GHG impacts, the most direct measure is a CI score. > >> > >> Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and > >> while I get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric > >> vehicle (they *are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see > >> renewable numbers of as low as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest > >> is fossil. > >> > >> So who is putting out more GHGs? > >> > >> This is the
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
istinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -- Larry Gales -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210813/c08dde21/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
You’ve completely ignored what I said - did you even read it? As far as the economics, not only will it not take a miracle to make “green” hydrogen more economical than fossil hydrogen, but at least one company is building production plants that they say will make it competitive in cost, and then improve it further. The technology is improving quickly, and as the cost of renewables drop, the production costs also drop, as that is the biggest driver of costs. As far as your comment of being ahead with electricity being stored in a battery, I think your looking at it the wrong way in two (if not more) important ways (and I won’t even get into battery production and recycling issues that don’t get taken into account). First, a battery doesn’t meet all duty cycle needs, which is why for some uses you need hydrogen even if you prefer batteries. The alternative is fossil fuel combustion in an IC engine. That’s why most of see fuels cell electrics as complementary to BEVs, not either/or. Secondly, and maybe more to your point, electricity, like hydrogen, gets produced in many ways. The GREET model, which is generally accepted as the gold standard for calculating GHG comparisons, If I’m remembering correctly, shows both BEVs and FCEVs reducing GHGs as compared to fossil combustion ICEs, no matter the input energy. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 13, 2021, at 5:14 AM, Bill Dube via EV wrote: > > Here is an article published today on "Clean Hydrogen". (Not so clean, > according to the article. surprise surprise ) > https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/12/clean-fuel-blue-hydrogen-coal-study > > > From _all_ I've read, even in Scientific American, you are way ahead simply > using plain old electricity instead of hydrogen, if you wish to curtail > climate change. Electricity for running a vehicle is much more economic, and > is far more ecological than hydrogen. At least for the foreseeable future. > > All but the tiniest fraction of hydrogen produced these days comes from > fossil fuel. This is because it is by far the most economic way to produce > hydrogen. Even so, it is _still_ far more expensive to run a car with the > cheapest H2 than run it directly with electricity stored in batteries. > > Perhaps someone, somewhere, will invent some miraculous possess that will > turn the tables completely, but that simply hasn't happened yet. > > The US government is going to throw another $8bn down this black hole. If > $8bn isn't enough to buy that miracle cure, then perhaps it will be time to > give H2 the last rites and finally move on. > > Bill D. > >> On 8/13/2021 7:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: >> Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the >> data. >> >> You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well, >> yes, you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce >> electricity to run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not >> fossil-derived, and the entire industry is moving towards 100% >> “decarbonized” hydrogen, with most believing that “green” hydrogen will be >> everywhere very soon. >> >> I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but the >> use of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for GHG >> impacts, the most direct measure is a CI score. >> >> Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and while >> I get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric vehicle (they >> *are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see renewable numbers of as >> low as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest is fossil. >> >> So who is putting out more GHGs? >> >> This is the problem with analysis that don’t analyze the real world as most >> would view the data. >> >> - Mark >> T INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
One cannot look just at grid numbers for renewables for EV's any more than one can claim their hydrogen comes from renewables. Survey's have shown that 85% of EV drivers either have solar or subscribe for 100% renewable electricity. Of course, by the same token, it is great that you buy only renewables generated hydrogen. But the process is so inefficient that it robs the rest of us of that renewable energy to elimionae worse fossil fuel systems. Something near 50% when the cost of compressing the hydrogen into a tank is included. FAR from a good idea when renewable electric generation for cars from solar wind, and hydro approach 95% efficiency.. And the difference between 50% and 95% is not close to 50%, it is colower to 90% since the 5% losses at 95% efficiency is TEN times less than the losses at 50% bob On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 3:31 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: > > Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the > data. > > You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well, > yes, you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce > electricity to run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not > fossil-derived, and the entire industry is moving towards 100% “decarbonized” > hydrogen, with most believing that “green” hydrogen will be everywhere very > soon. > > I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but the > use of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for GHG > impacts, the most direct measure is a CI score. > > Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and while > I get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric vehicle (they > *are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see renewable numbers of as > low as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest is fossil. > > So who is putting out more GHGs? > > This is the problem with analysis that don’t analyze the real world as most > would view the data. > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > > > On Aug 12, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > > > > For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises Doubts. > > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/climate/hydrogen-fuel-natural-gas-pollution.html > > > > ... > > The main stumbling block: Most hydrogen used today is extracted from > > natural gas in a process that requires a lot of energy and emits vast > > amounts of carbon dioxide. Producing natural gas also releases methane, a > > particularly potent greenhouse gas. > > ... > > And while the natural gas industry has proposed capturing that carbon > > dioxide — creating what it promotes as emissions-free, “blue” hydrogen — > > even that fuel still emits more across its entire supply chain than simply > > burning natural gas, according to the paper, published Thursday in the > > Energy Science & Engineering journal by researchers from Cornell and > > Stanford Universities. > > ... > > The researchers assumed that 3.5 percent of the gas drilled from the ground > > leaks into the atmosphere, an assumption that draws on mounting research > > that has found that drilling for natural gas emits far more methane than > > previously known. > > > > They also took into account the natural gas required to power the carbon > > capture technology. In all, they found that the greenhouse gas footprint of > > blue hydrogen was more than 20 percent greater than burning natural gas or > > coal for heat. > > ... > > Jack Brouwer, director of the National Fuel Cell Research Center at the > > University of California, Irvine, said that hydrogen would ultimately need > > to be made using renewable energy to produce what the industry calls green > > hydrogen, which uses renewable energy to split water into its constituent > > parts, hydrogen and oxygen. That, he said, would eliminate the fossil and > > the methane leaks. > > ... > > Today, very little hydrogen is green, because the process involved — > > electrolyzing water to separate hydrogen atoms from oxygen — is hugely > > energy intensive. In most places, there simply isn’t enough renewable > > energy to produce vast amounts of green hydrogen. (Although if the world > > does start to produce excess renewable energy, converting it to hydrogen > > would be one way to store it.) > > ... > > > > --- > > > > I'm glad to see this published mainstream. People don't seem to think about > > the source for hydrogen, only about the the aspect of filling a tank in a > > few minutes and driving off. Long live EVs !!! > > > > Peri > > > > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > > > > ___ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > > LIST INFO:
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
The only conclusion drawn by the authors is that it is not cost effective to produce "green" hydrogen, meaning hydrogen produced from electrolysis using electricity generated from some non carbon producing source. They also state the fact that, today, almost all hydrogen is produced from natural gas. I completely stand by that conclusion. While it's theoretically possible to produce "decarbonized" hydrogen, it can't be done on a commercial scale, let alone a scale large enough to power America's transportation system. If we were to do so, we would have to build some tens of thousands of terawatts of wind and solar electricity production (or nuclear, I suppose). Out of that production, roughly 50% of the energy would be lost in process of electrolysis and then electricity from a fuel cell. Until we have so much excess "clean" electricity, it's more economical and more efficient to use that to power homes, businesses, and industry connected to the grid ... and EVs, where the loss is much less than 50%, more like 10-20%. At some point, we'll probably have enough large scale excess that it makes sense to produce hydrogen with that excess. But, I believe, the primary use for that hydrogen will be for backup grid power generation, not transportation. At that point, we'll be able to have a 100% clean grid and a grid capable of charging EVs across the country ! Peri << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "Mark Abramowitz" To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Sent: 13-Aug-21 00:11:06 Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the data. You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well, yes, you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce electricity to run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not fossil-derived, and the entire industry is moving towards 100% “decarbonized” hydrogen, with most believing that “green” hydrogen will be everywhere very soon. I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but the use of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for GHG impacts, the most direct measure is a CI score. Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and while I get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric vehicle (they *are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see renewable numbers of as low as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest is fossil. So who is putting out more GHGs? This is the problem with analysis that don’t analyze the real world as most would view the data. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone On Aug 12, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises Doubts. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/climate/hydrogen-fuel-natural-gas-pollution.html ... The main stumbling block: Most hydrogen used today is extracted from natural gas in a process that requires a lot of energy and emits vast amounts of carbon dioxide. Producing natural gas also releases methane, a particularly potent greenhouse gas. ... And while the natural gas industry has proposed capturing that carbon dioxide — creating what it promotes as emissions-free, “blue” hydrogen — even that fuel still emits more across its entire supply chain than simply burning natural gas, according to the paper, published Thursday in the Energy Science & Engineering journal by researchers from Cornell and Stanford Universities. ... The researchers assumed that 3.5 percent of the gas drilled from the ground leaks into the atmosphere, an assumption that draws on mounting research that has found that drilling for natural gas emits far more methane than previously known. They also took into account the natural gas required to power the carbon capture technology. In all, they found that the greenhouse gas footprint of blue hydrogen was more than 20 percent greater than burning natural gas or coal for heat. ... Jack Brouwer, director of the National Fuel Cell Research Center at the University of California, Irvine, said that hydrogen would ultimately need to be made using renewable energy to produce what the industry calls green hydrogen, which uses renewable energy to split water into its constituent parts, hydrogen and oxygen. That, he said, would eliminate the fossil and the methane leaks. ... Today, very little hydrogen is green, because the process involved — electrolyzing water to separate hydrogen atoms from oxygen — is hugely energy intensive. In most places, there simply isn’t enough renewable energy to produce vast amounts of green hydrogen. (Although if the world does start to produce excess renewable energy, converting it to hydrogen would be one way to store it.) ... --- I'm glad to see
[EVDL] Tesla history
An old photo of my first Tesla just surfaced in an Inside EVs story. I thought it was worth a blog post: https://wmckemie.blogspot.com/2021/08/old-photo-of-13s85-lives-on.html ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
Here is an article published today on "Clean Hydrogen". (Not so clean, according to the article. surprise surprise ) https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/12/clean-fuel-blue-hydrogen-coal-study From _all_ I've read, even in Scientific American, you are way ahead simply using plain old electricity instead of hydrogen, if you wish to curtail climate change. Electricity for running a vehicle is much more economic, and is far more ecological than hydrogen. At least for the foreseeable future. All but the tiniest fraction of hydrogen produced these days comes from fossil fuel. This is because it is by far the most economic way to produce hydrogen. Even so, it is _still_ far more expensive to run a car with the cheapest H2 than run it directly with electricity stored in batteries. Perhaps someone, somewhere, will invent some miraculous possess that will turn the tables completely, but that simply hasn't happened yet. The US government is going to throw another $8bn down this black hole. If $8bn isn't enough to buy that miracle cure, then perhaps it will be time to give H2 the last rites and finally move on. Bill D. On 8/13/2021 7:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the data. You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well, yes, you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce electricity to run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not fossil-derived, and the entire industry is moving towards 100% “decarbonized” hydrogen, with most believing that “green” hydrogen will be everywhere very soon. I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but the use of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for GHG impacts, the most direct measure is a CI score. Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and while I get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric vehicle (they *are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see renewable numbers of as low as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest is fossil. So who is putting out more GHGs? This is the problem with analysis that don’t analyze the real world as most would view the data. - Mark T INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the data. You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well, yes, you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce electricity to run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not fossil-derived, and the entire industry is moving towards 100% “decarbonized” hydrogen, with most believing that “green” hydrogen will be everywhere very soon. I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but the use of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for GHG impacts, the most direct measure is a CI score. Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and while I get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric vehicle (they *are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see renewable numbers of as low as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest is fossil. So who is putting out more GHGs? This is the problem with analysis that don’t analyze the real world as most would view the data. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 12, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > > For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises Doubts. > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/climate/hydrogen-fuel-natural-gas-pollution.html > > ... > The main stumbling block: Most hydrogen used today is extracted from natural > gas in a process that requires a lot of energy and emits vast amounts of > carbon dioxide. Producing natural gas also releases methane, a particularly > potent greenhouse gas. > ... > And while the natural gas industry has proposed capturing that carbon dioxide > — creating what it promotes as emissions-free, “blue” hydrogen — even that > fuel still emits more across its entire supply chain than simply burning > natural gas, according to the paper, published Thursday in the Energy Science > & Engineering journal by researchers from Cornell and Stanford Universities. > ... > The researchers assumed that 3.5 percent of the gas drilled from the ground > leaks into the atmosphere, an assumption that draws on mounting research that > has found that drilling for natural gas emits far more methane than > previously known. > > They also took into account the natural gas required to power the carbon > capture technology. In all, they found that the greenhouse gas footprint of > blue hydrogen was more than 20 percent greater than burning natural gas or > coal for heat. > ... > Jack Brouwer, director of the National Fuel Cell Research Center at the > University of California, Irvine, said that hydrogen would ultimately need to > be made using renewable energy to produce what the industry calls green > hydrogen, which uses renewable energy to split water into its constituent > parts, hydrogen and oxygen. That, he said, would eliminate the fossil and the > methane leaks. > ... > Today, very little hydrogen is green, because the process involved — > electrolyzing water to separate hydrogen atoms from oxygen — is hugely energy > intensive. In most places, there simply isn’t enough renewable energy to > produce vast amounts of green hydrogen. (Although if the world does start to > produce excess renewable energy, converting it to hydrogen would be one way > to store it.) > ... > > --- > > I'm glad to see this published mainstream. People don't seem to think about > the source for hydrogen, only about the the aspect of filling a tank in a few > minutes and driving off. Long live EVs !!! > > Peri > > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
