Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[Ron Solberg via EV]

 Quoting Jay Summet via EV :


On 4/22/19 1:16 PM, Ron Solberg via EV wrote:

I tried to put as much system information as I could into my  
question as I could however,  "vintage Jacobs" needs more  
explanation. This generator was made in about 1948, is  
DC(commutator), no electronics or gears(mechanical governor),  
direct drive, I understand, the transistor came about in 1947.


Gotcha. In that case, you will almost certainly need a DC2DC step up  
converter.  Figure out the amps/watts the generator can provide as a  
starting point to know the specs of the boost converter you'll need.


If you are searching ebay for boost converters, one phrase you may  
want to look for in the listings is "input voltage protection",  
which lets you set an "input voltage" that the boost converter  
shouldn't go below. (it will limit the output current/voltage to  
"protect" the input voltage.) This is a useful feature for solar  
input, and you may find it useful for your generator as well.


Jay

Thanks Jay. Just what I needed to know...Ron

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orgPlease discuss EV drag  
racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 4/22/19 1:16 PM, Ron Solberg via EV wrote:

I tried to put as much system information as I could into my question 
as I could however,  "vintage Jacobs" needs more explanation. This 
generator was made in about 1948, is DC(commutator), no electronics or 
gears(mechanical governor), direct drive, I understand, the transistor 
came about in 1947.


Gotcha. In that case, you will almost certainly need a DC2DC step up 
converter.  Figure out the amps/watts the generator can provide as a 
starting point to know the specs of the boost converter you'll need.


If you are searching ebay for boost converters, one phrase you may want 
to look for in the listings is "input voltage protection", which lets 
you set an "input voltage" that the boost converter shouldn't go below. 
(it will limit the output current/voltage to "protect" the input 
voltage.) This is a useful feature for solar input, and you may find it 
useful for your generator as well.


Jay



___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[Ron Solberg via EV]

 Quoting Jay Summet via EV :

The wind generator may (in higher wind speeds) be able to produce a  
voltage high enough to charge the 48 volt battery.


The wire size shouldn't be an issue, as at 48 volts the wire will  
see less current than at 32 volts.


I was thinking that might be the case.

It is likely your wind generator has a piece of electronics or  
charge controller associated with it that takes the AC power the  
generator makes and converts it to DC output to charge a battery.  
You will likely need to modify or replace this piece to successfully  
charge a 48 volt battery.


I tried to put as much system information as I could into my  
question as I could however,  "vintage Jacobs" needs more  
explanation. This generator was made in about 1948, is  
DC(commutator), no electronics or gears(mechanical governor), direct  
drive, I understand, the transistor came about in 1947.


[Perhaps the 32 volt from the wind generator is AC, and a  
rectifier/charger was used to step that down to 24 or 14 volt  
charging?]


Jerry Lilyerd at Sun Energy likes the 48 volt OutBack inverter for  
its ease in field service and its sine wave output.  I believe they  
have a long history that is built on the work of others. That is the  
reason I want to go 48 Volts. We like our custom built 120 Volt  
inverter but the Tesla wants a sine wave.


Even if the voltage output of the generator is too low to directly  
charge the battery, you can purchase a "step up" converter that can  
take 12-24 volts and step it up to the 48-55 volts needed to charge  
a 48v battery. (But will lose some power in the conversion process.)  
  


Yes, I will look into purchase of a "step up" converter. Thanks much...Ron

Jay

On 4/22/19 11:48 AM, Ron Solberg via EV wrote:

Quoting Lee Hart via EV :

QUESTION ON A PROPOSED 32/48 VOLT DC MIX:

Since I just monitor the EVDL, I have not learned the correct  
procedures to post. I hope that jumping in here with a question  
will be acceptable.


Question: Will a vintage 2800 watt, 32 Volt Jacobs wind generator  
charge an L16 FLA, Interstate 48 Volt battery?


The Proposed System:

A 48 Volt DC to 120/240 AC  Out Back inverter would be fed by a  
 4000 or 8000 Watt PV panel. My question then, is it feasible to  
add the 32 volt wind plant to charge the battery on a cloudy day?


My hope is that despite the wire size(for 32 volt) of the generator  
windings, the generator field will"see" the 48 volt battery in a  
positive way. I could adjust the wind plant governor.  I see this  
as an experiment so I can use all the help I can get should I  
proceed in that direction.


 The Goal:

Our Tesla Model 3 rejects the AC output of our present tracking 3  
KW PV 120DC/120AC system. We plan to add the  second, independent,  
non tracking system since the Out Back inverter produces a sine  
wave that is acceptable to the Tesla as was proven by Jerry lilyerd  
at Sun Energy.


Thanks for the service you provide,
Ron Solberg


Michael Ross via EV wrote:
Keep in mind that many hand held meters cannot accurately report  
mOhms. You

should look up the specs on your meter to see what it is actually capable
of.


Indeed, most normal meters are inaccurate below about 1 ohm. Their  
own lead wires and internal circuitry adds more resistance than  
that.


There are special meters for measuring very low resistance values  
(usually called "milli-ohm" or "micro-ohm" meters. They usually  
make 4-wire measurements. Four wires connect to the unknown  
resistance; two supply a known current, and the other two measure  
the (tiny) voltage produced by this current. This method cancels  
out the resistance of the wires and connections themselves.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com[1][1]
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orgPlease discuss EV  
drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)


Links:
--
[1] http://www.sunrise-ev.com
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:  
  
___

UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orgPlease discuss EV drag  
racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




Links:
--
[1] http://www.sunrise-ev.com
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[Jay Summet via EV]

The wind generator may (in higher wind speeds) be able to produce a 
voltage high enough to charge the 48 volt battery.


The wire size shouldn't be an issue, as at 48 volts the wire will see 
less current than at 32 volts.


It is likely your wind generator has a piece of electronics or charge 
controller associated with it that takes the AC power the generator 
makes and converts it to DC output to charge a battery. You will likely 
need to modify or replace this piece to successfully charge a 48 volt 
battery.


[Perhaps the 32 volt from the wind generator is AC, and a 
rectifier/charger was used to step that down to 24 or 14 volt charging?]


Even if the voltage output of the generator is too low to directly 
charge the battery, you can purchase a "step up" converter that can take 
12-24 volts and step it up to the 48-55 volts needed to charge a 48v 
battery. (But will lose some power in the conversion process.)


Jay


On 4/22/19 11:48 AM, Ron Solberg via EV wrote:

Quoting Lee Hart via EV :

QUESTION ON A PROPOSED 32/48 VOLT DC MIX:

Since I just monitor the EVDL, I have not learned the correct procedures 
to post. I hope that jumping in here with a question will be acceptable.


Question: Will a vintage 2800 watt, 32 Volt Jacobs wind generator charge 
an L16 FLA, Interstate 48 Volt battery?


The Proposed System:

A 48 Volt DC to 120/240 AC  Out Back inverter would be fed by a  4000 or 
8000 Watt PV panel. My question then, is it feasible to add the 32 volt 
wind plant to charge the battery on a cloudy day?


My hope is that despite the wire size(for 32 volt) of the generator 
windings, the generator field will"see" the 48 volt battery in a 
positive way. I could adjust the wind plant governor.  I see this as an 
experiment so I can use all the help I can get should I proceed in that 
direction.


  The Goal:

Our Tesla Model 3 rejects the AC output of our present tracking 3 KW PV 
120DC/120AC system. We plan to add the  second, independent, non 
tracking system since the Out Back inverter produces a sine wave that is 
acceptable to the Tesla as was proven by Jerry lilyerd at Sun Energy.


Thanks for the service you provide,
Ron Solberg


Michael Ross via EV wrote:
Keep in mind that many hand held meters cannot accurately report 
mOhms. You
should look up the specs on your meter to see what it is actually 
capable

of.


Indeed, most normal meters are inaccurate below about 1 ohm. Their own 
lead wires and internal circuitry adds more resistance than that.


There are special meters for measuring very low resistance values 
(usually called "milli-ohm" or "micro-ohm" meters. They usually make 
4-wire measurements. Four wires connect to the unknown resistance; two 
supply a known current, and the other two measure the (tiny) voltage 
produced by this current. This method cancels out the resistance of 
the wires and connections themselves.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com[1]
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orgPlease discuss EV drag 
racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




Links:
--
[1] http://www.sunrise-ev.com
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
 


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)



___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[Ron Solberg via EV]

Quoting Lee Hart via EV :

QUESTION ON A PROPOSED 32/48 VOLT DC MIX:

Since I just monitor the EVDL, I have not learned the correct  
procedures to post. I hope that jumping in here with a question will  
be acceptable.


Question: Will a vintage 2800 watt, 32 Volt Jacobs wind generator  
charge an L16 FLA, Interstate 48 Volt battery?


The Proposed System:

A 48 Volt DC to 120/240 AC  Out Back inverter would be fed by a  4000  
or 8000 Watt PV panel. My question then, is it feasible to add the 32  
volt wind plant to charge the battery on a cloudy day?


My hope is that despite the wire size(for 32 volt) of the generator  
windings, the generator field will"see" the 48 volt battery in a  
positive way. I could adjust the wind plant governor.  I see this as  
an experiment so I can use all the help I can get should I proceed in  
that direction.


 The Goal:

Our Tesla Model 3 rejects the AC output of our present tracking 3 KW  
PV 120DC/120AC system. We plan to add the  second, independent, non  
tracking system since the Out Back inverter produces a sine wave that  
is acceptable to the Tesla as was proven by Jerry lilyerd at Sun Energy.


Thanks for the service you provide,
Ron Solberg


Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Keep in mind that many hand held meters cannot accurately report mOhms. You
should look up the specs on your meter to see what it is actually capable
of.


Indeed, most normal meters are inaccurate below about 1 ohm. Their  
own lead wires and internal circuitry adds more resistance than that.


There are special meters for measuring very low resistance values  
(usually called "milli-ohm" or "micro-ohm" meters. They usually make  
4-wire measurements. Four wires connect to the unknown resistance;  
two supply a known current, and the other two measure the (tiny)  
voltage produced by this current. This method cancels out the  
resistance of the wires and connections themselves.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com[1]
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orgPlease discuss EV drag  
racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




Links:
--
[1] http://www.sunrise-ev.com
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[Lee Hart via EV]

evtlfp20 via EV wrote:

Third, if you were able to charge them, check their internal
resistance. It cannot be the "17-22 meg" that you said. Did you
mis-type, and it's really 17-22 milli-ohms (0.017 to 0.022 ohms)? How
did you measure it?


Hi evtlfp20,

A good battery's internal resistance is very small; tiny fractions of an 
ohm. It takes special equipment, or special measurement techniques to 
measure resistances this small.


A "milliohm" is a thousanth of an ohm -- 0.001 ohm. "Milli" is 
abbreviated "m" (lower-case m). A "megohm" is a MILLON ohms -- 1,000,000 
ohms. "Mega" is abbreviated "M" (capital M). So you can see my confusion 
when you said your battery was "17-22 meg ohms".



using my icharger 306b  it says 18m n  omega  sysmbol.


I don't know what an "icharger" is. But it has become fashionable (a 
marketing gimmick) to put pretend internal resistance scales on battery 
testers. Lots of meters sold to auto repair places claim to test 
internal resistance as a quick-n-dirty good/bad battery test.



> A 30 amphour cell good for 10C would have to deliver 300 amps.

10 c this is burst current I hope they can do 2 or 3 c steady ..

can you show us the math how this nmc cell could not do this?


Sure!

"10C" means the battery is able to supply a current of 10 times its 
amphour capacity ("C"). For example, a 30 amphour car starting battery 
that can deliver 300 amps to crank an engine.


But to deliver 300 amps, the battery must have a very low internal 
resistance. For example, suppose a 12v car starting battery sags to 11v 
wit a 300 amp load for 10 seconds. Then its internal resistance is 
(12v-11v)/300a = 0.0033 ohms = 3.3 milliohms. That's good.


Now suppose it sags to 6v under that load: (12v-6v)/300a = 0.02 ohm = 20 
milliohms. That's bad! 6v isn't enough to crank an engine or power all 
the computers a car needs to start.


PS: This tells you how you should measure internal resistance for yourself:

1. Measure the battery voltage: Preferably with a small load, like 1 amp 
to remove the effect of any recent charging. This is the "unloaded" 
voltage and current, Vlo and Ilo.


2. Connect a high current load: Preferably 1C, or whatever current you 
expect to draw.


3. Wait 10 seconds. The voltage should fall quickly to a new level, and 
then stabilize at a slow rate of decline.


4. Measure the voltage again. This is the "loaded" voltage and current, 
Vhi and Ihi".


5. Calculate the internal resistance: R = (Vlo-Vhi) / (Ihi-Ilo).

For example, your battery is 12.5v at 1 amp, and 12.0v at 30 amps. Then 
R = (12.5v-12.0v) / 30a-1a) = 0.017 ohms = 17 milliohms.


EV batteries generally need to supply high currents for long periods. 
You can see that this 17 milliohm battery can't do it.


A good 18650 lithium cell (like you'd find in a laptop) will have an 
internal resistance under 3 milliohms. A plain old 6v golf cart battery 
is under 5 milliohms.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[Lee Hart via EV]

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Keep in mind that many hand held meters cannot accurately report mOhms. You
should look up the specs on your meter to see what it is actually capable
of.


Indeed, most normal meters are inaccurate below about 1 ohm. Their own 
lead wires and internal circuitry adds more resistance than that.


There are special meters for measuring very low resistance values 
(usually called "milli-ohm" or "micro-ohm" meters. They usually make 
4-wire measurements. Four wires connect to the unknown resistance; two 
supply a known current, and the other two measure the (tiny) voltage 
produced by this current. This method cancels out the resistance of the 
wires and connections themselves.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[Michael Ross via EV]

Keep in mind that many hand held meters cannot accurately report mOhms. You
should look up the specs on your meter to see what it is actually capable
of.


Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 1:31 PM evtlfp20 via EV  wrote:

>
> >
> > Third, if you were able to charge them, check their internal
> > resistance. It cannot be the "17-22 meg" that you said. Did you
> > mis-type, and it's really 17-22 milli-ohms (0.017 to 0.022 ohms)? How
> > did you measure it?
>
> using my icharger 306b  it says 18m n  omega  sysmbol.
> >
> > A 30 amphour cell good for 10C would have to deliver 300 amps.
>
> 10 c this is burst current I hope they can do 2 or 3 c steady ..
>
> can you show us the math how this nmc cell could not do this ?
>
>
>
>
> To do
> > this, it can't have an internal resistance more than about 5 milliohms
> > (0.005 ohms). So even if yours are 17-22 milliohms, they are bad.
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
Google Phone and Text
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[evtlfp20 via EV]

Third, if you were able to charge them, check their internal
resistance. It cannot be the "17-22 meg" that you said. Did you
mis-type, and it's really 17-22 milli-ohms (0.017 to 0.022 ohms)? How
did you measure it?


using my icharger 306b  it says 18m n  omega  sysmbol.


A 30 amphour cell good for 10C would have to deliver 300 amps.


10 c this is burst current I hope they can do 2 or 3 c steady ..

can you show us the math how this nmc cell could not do this ?




To do

this, it can't have an internal resistance more than about 5 milliohms
(0.005 ohms). So even if yours are 17-22 milliohms, they are bad.

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[Lee Hart via EV]

evtlfp20 via EV wrote:

  I recived a shipment of NMC battery pack with zero volts across 12s ,
and yes they all showed zero.
I read about bumping the cells with nicad setting to get them to 3 volts
so the normal charging could begin and most of them charged to Storage
voltage and have held with in 4/100 of a volt ( 3.70 ) 1 week now .
theses are 30amhr 10C rated.

I was warned that metal based dendrits that have formed becuse of below
zero volts could cause the cells to go blastic .

  most of the cells show an Internal Impendance  of 17 - 22 meg.
Should I put them into a light test use and do a few lights cycles or
solud I just slowly bleed them to zero then send to recycling?

I like to get come use and No Fires


Hi evtlfp20,

I would be very wary of those cells!

First, the seller cheated you. Send them back, and demand replacements 
or a refund!


Second, don't expect them to ever deliver their rated capacity or 
current again. You might be able to recover some capacity from them, but 
they will almost certainly be damaged by being run dead.


Third, if you were able to charge them, check their internal resistance. 
It cannot be the "17-22 meg" that you said. Did you mis-type, and it's 
really 17-22 milli-ohms (0.017 to 0.022 ohms)? How did you measure it?


A 30 amphour cell good for 10C would have to deliver 300 amps. To do 
this, it can't have an internal resistance more than about 5 milliohms 
(0.005 ohms). So even if yours are 17-22 milliohms, they are bad.


The danger with damaged cells is that they become resistors at high 
charge or discharge currents. The resistance produces heat, which starts 
a runaway reaction leading to a fire. The other danger is that they can 
spontaneously short, dumping all of the charge in them, also causing a fire.


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[evtlfp20 via EV]

 I recived a shipment of NMC battery pack with zero volts across 12s , 
and yes they all showed zero.
I read about bumping the cells with nicad setting to get them to 3 volts 
so the normal charging could begin and most of them charged to Storage 
voltage and have held with in 4/100 of a volt ( 3.70 ) 1 week now .  
theses are 30amhr 10C rated.


I was warned that metal based dendrits that have formed becuse of below 
zero volts could cause the cells to go blastic .


 most of the cells show an Internal Impendance  of 17 - 22 meg.
Should I put them into a light test use and do a few lights cycles or 
solud I just slowly bleed them to zero then send to recycling?


I like to get come use and No Fires
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)