Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

On Dec 22, 2014, at 2:08 PM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> Particulates probably are not anything like the pollen
> the trees generate while alive.

Wow. Never heard anyone compare pollen to particulates.

Pollen may cause you to have allergies and impact you for a short period, 
depending in how allergic you are. Particulates can cause or exacerbate many 
very serious health problems, and depending on its makeup, can cause cancer.
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Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Regardless of how fast carbon from decaying material goes into the 
atmosphere, the real issue is the short term balance.  If you have 5 
acres and are burning windfall, clearly you are net zero on a yearly 
basis.  If fact, even if you were to cut a few trees a year from a 
mature forest (where new trees are seeding and growing), I think 5 acres 
would still be enough to be carbon neutral.


The rest of us probably don't meet your performance!

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Michael Ross" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 22-Dec-14 2:08:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

I have a very good stove. After the start up phase, you would not know 
I have wood heat.   Particulates probably are not anything like the 
pollen the trees generate while alive.  I do have a bushel of ash a 
year, approximately.  That gets mixed safely into the ecosystem.


There is nothing fishy about the claim of carbon neutrality for burning 
wood.  The 5 acres behind my home is fully forested, I don't even cut 
them down live. I burn deadfalls and what my neighbors have falling 
down. The speed of burning versus decaying washes out completely over 
time.  The decay is combustion just by biological means. The cellulose 
is consumed by bacteria, ultimately (even if it first passes through 
some buggy digestive tract).


The prehistoric biomass that became oil and coal was not decayed or the 
carbon would have already returned to the atmosphere. When a tree 
decays the carbon is in the air.  The humus you see is simply not yet 
decayed completely.


I am not going to get any more specific about carbon neutrality of wood 
burning.  It is easy to find information on this (and misinformation).  
I have decided which on which side I am.  If I was concerned I would 
not do it.  My heat would be from gas, but I don't support releasing 
that by using wood.



On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:
Further, where did the idea that all the decayed wood's carbon goes 
into the atmosphere.  If that were true in general, we wouldn't have 
any fossil fuels!  Much of the decayed wood turn into humus and stays 
in the soil.


The only argument I could buy is is you grow trees at the same rate 
you burn them, you are probably carbon neutral.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 22-Dec-14 10:00:44 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

➢ A tree burned emits no more than a tree decayed on the forest 
floor.


Ah, I knew they claimed that burning wood was carbon neutral, but I 
could
not remember why. You just summarized it well. Though there are other 
junk

from burning wood that we don’t want to breath (as noted by Mark:)


 Burning wood emits *lots* of air pollution,
 particularly particulate matter, but also including ...
 potent carcinogens, NOx (also a greenhouse gas),
 CO (*dangerous* in closed spaces), and more.


And surely some of that carbon takes years to return to the 
atmosphere if

not forever and so that can help our short-term problem better by not
burning it (yet)...

Bob
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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain 
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?

Dalai Lama

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
Warren Buffet

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com




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Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Michael Ross via EV]

I have a very good stove. After the start up phase, you would not know I
have wood heat.   Particulates probably are not anything like the pollen
the trees generate while alive.  I do have a bushel of ash a year,
approximately.  That gets mixed safely into the ecosystem.

There is nothing fishy about the claim of carbon neutrality for burning
wood.  The 5 acres behind my home is fully forested, I don't even cut them
down live. I burn deadfalls and what my neighbors have falling down. The
speed of burning versus decaying washes out completely over time.  The
decay is combustion just by biological means. The cellulose is consumed by
bacteria, ultimately (even if it first passes through some buggy digestive
tract).

The prehistoric biomass that became oil and coal was not decayed or the
carbon would have already returned to the atmosphere. When a tree decays
the carbon is in the air.  The humus you see is simply not yet decayed
completely.

I am not going to get any more specific about carbon neutrality of wood
burning.  It is easy to find information on this (and misinformation).  I
have decided which on which side I am.  If I was concerned I would not do
it.  My heat would be from gas, but I don't support releasing that by using
wood.


On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Further, where did the idea that all the decayed wood's carbon goes into
> the atmosphere.  If that were true in general, we wouldn't have any fossil
> fuels!  Much of the decayed wood turn into humus and stays in the soil.
>
> The only argument I could buy is is you grow trees at the same rate you
> burn them, you are probably carbon neutral.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Sent: 22-Dec-14 10:00:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid
>
>  ➢ A tree burned emits no more than a tree decayed on the forest floor.
>>
>> Ah, I knew they claimed that burning wood was carbon neutral, but I could
>> not remember why. You just summarized it well. Though there are other junk
>> from burning wood that we don’t want to breath (as noted by Mark:)
>>
>>   Burning wood emits *lots* of air pollution,
>>>  particularly particulate matter, but also including ...
>>>  potent carcinogens, NOx (also a greenhouse gas),
>>>  CO (*dangerous* in closed spaces), and more.
>>>
>>
>> And surely some of that carbon takes years to return to the atmosphere if
>> not forever and so that can help our short-term problem better by not
>> burning it (yet)...
>>
>> Bob
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>> group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
> ___
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> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

On Dec 22, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> And surely some of that carbon takes years to return to the atmosphere if
> not forever and so that can help our short-term problem  better by not
> burning it (yet)...

The cleanest kilowatt of energy is the kilowatt not used.
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Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Burning wood emits *lots* of air pollution, particularly particulate matter, 
but also including potent carcinogens, NOx (also a greenhouse gas), CO 
(*dangerous* in closed spaces), and more.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 22, 2014, at 9:16 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> I am with you Bob.  As aggravating as it dealing with a utility company,
> and as attractive as it is to be free of them, it is rarely a good
> financial decision to drop use of an available grid.  For as along as they
> can, utilities will be pricing there service to discourage us from going
> off grid.. THis will inevitably drop, but they will still be after some fee
> if they can get it.  That grid connection is not just money but also
> support and influence.
> 
> Maybe if one is sitting on a big pile...but it still makes little financial
> sense.
> 
> I would take exception with your knock on wood heat.  A tree burned emits
> no more than a a tree decayed on the forest floor.
> 
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>>> So, I have my roof covered with solar panels.
>>> my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly
>>> "basic connection fees" for solar "customers."
>> 
>> So, 3 times $8/mo is $24/mo.Big deal...
>> 
>> That is far-far (100 times ) cheaper than any home-energy storage system.
>> 
>> Here is the lunacy of "going off-grid" when you already have it:
>> 
>> EXAMPLE: I have 17kw of solar generating capacity at home.  In Maryland, I
>> probably get about 60kWh on a good day.  (for a net-ZERO annual electric
>> kWh bill)   ... BUT!!!  In the last 2 weeks we have had ONLY ONE sunny
>> day. (this is rare)...  On overcast days, I maybe get 6 kWh.
>> 
>> But my electric load (now during worst winter solstice) is over 120 kWh
>> per day (geothermal heatpump).
>> 
>> If I was off grid, I'd need at least SIX TESLA equivalent batteries to be
>> able to continue living at the same life style, and then, in this
>> particular weather pattern, we would have run out of heat after 3 days and
>> been cold fore more than a week.  (they are forcasting 3 more days of
>> clouds)...
>> 
>> But with grid tie, NO PROBLEM. I stored up over 4 months of energy kWh in
>> the grid, which should carry me though the winter to break even at zero by
>> the spring.
>> 
>> Even if they were not Tesla, but just Lead Acid batteries, and I wanted
>> the same 5 day energy storage, I'd need 600 golf cart batteries, at $100
>> each or about $60,000 investment in batteries AND I would need to maintain
>> them FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE and replace them every few years.
>> Lets say somehow they last 5 years,  That is $12k per year or $1000 per
>> month.
>> 
>> All of a sudden, the $8  per month compared to $1000 amortized battery
>> cost looks really great indeed.  (and zero maintenance for grid tie).
>> 
>> But, HERE IS THE THING EVERYONE OVERLOOKS:
>> 
>> 1) Since you have to oversize your battery capacity to handle cloudy days,
>> then BY DEFINITION, on every additional SUNNY day in a row, then your
>> batteries are FULL and cannot accept any more charge.  Thus you are
>> WASTING almost all of your solar panel investment on GOOD SUNNY DAYS in a
>> row!!! (and most every summer day).
>> 
>> 2) Even if you have say 5 days storage, that is miniscule compared to 365
>> days storage you get with the grid!  In other words, you have no place to
>> store the TWO-TIMES additional PV electricity you generate in the summer
>> for when you need it most, in the winter.What a loss!
>> 
>> Talk to anyone off-grid.  They live a miserable life in the winter, barely
>> scraping by, and then have excess solar power in the summer that they
>> cannot even find ways to throw away because their batteries cannot take
>> the extra.
>> 
>> In Summary, if you have your own storage, and do NOT USE 100% of your
>> solar capacity EVERY DAY, then you are throwing away your solar investment
>> every afternoon after the batteries approach full.
>> 
>> See http://aprs.org/off-grid-NOT.html
>> 
>> The beauty of GRID-TIE is the UNLIMITED storage capacity, the lack of
>> maintenance, and the ability to store up summer excesss for use in the
>> winter when you need it.
>> 
>> Sure, you can burn oil, gas, propane, or wood for heat and drastically
>> reduce your electric heating need, but then what about our goal of
>> EMISSIONS FREE living?
>> 
>> Bob, WB4aPR
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
> *Dalai Lama *
> 
> Tell me what it is you plan to do
> With your one wild and precious life?
> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
> 
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> 

Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Further, where did the idea that all the decayed wood's carbon goes into 
the atmosphere.  If that were true in general, we wouldn't have any 
fossil fuels!  Much of the decayed wood turn into humus and stays in the 
soil.


The only argument I could buy is is you grow trees at the same rate you 
burn them, you are probably carbon neutral.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 22-Dec-14 10:00:44 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid


➢ A tree burned emits no more than a tree decayed on the forest floor.

Ah, I knew they claimed that burning wood was carbon neutral, but I 
could
not remember why. You just summarized it well. Though there are other 
junk

from burning wood that we don’t want to breath (as noted by Mark:)


 Burning wood emits *lots* of air pollution,
 particularly particulate matter, but also including ...
 potent carcinogens, NOx (also a greenhouse gas),
 CO (*dangerous* in closed spaces), and more.


And surely some of that carbon takes years to return to the atmosphere 
if

not forever and so that can help our short-term problem better by not
burning it (yet)...

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

➢ A tree burned emits no more than a tree decayed on the forest floor.

Ah, I knew they claimed that burning wood was carbon neutral, but I could
not remember why.  You just summarized it well.  Though there are other junk
from burning wood that we don’t want  to breath (as noted by Mark:)

> Burning wood emits *lots* of air pollution,
> particularly particulate matter, but also including ...
> potent carcinogens, NOx (also a greenhouse gas),
> CO (*dangerous* in closed spaces), and more.

And surely some of that carbon takes years to return to the atmosphere if
not forever and so that can help our short-term problem  better by not
burning it (yet)...

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Whether a utility encourages off grid generation or not really depends 
on some factors, the principal one being what their generating capacity 
is.  If they have bonds to pay off and excess capacity, they will want 
their customers to buy all their power.  If they are reaching capacity 
and have to buy power elsewhere or build a new plant, they might look at 
it differently.


Here, Seattle gets most of its power from a city owned hydro plant.  It 
sometimes has surplus power but, overall, the city buys some percent of 
power from other sources and doesn't want to invest in a large new plant 
(of any sort).  So, it actively encourages small scale individual power 
generation.


Even while offering a higher buy back rate than the standard rate (as an 
incentive), they figure the city comes out ahead - it's cheaper than 
building new plants.  I think we'll see more of this as the costs of new 
plants continue to rise and the costs of solar and wind continue to 
drop.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Michael Ross via EV" 
To: "Robert Bruninga" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 22-Dec-14 9:16:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid


I am with you Bob. As aggravating as it dealing with a utility company,
and as attractive as it is to be free of them, it is rarely a good
financial decision to drop use of an available grid. For as along as 
they
can, utilities will be pricing there service to discourage us from 
going
off grid.. THis will inevitably drop, but they will still be after some 
fee

if they can get it. That grid connection is not just money but also
support and influence.

Maybe if one is sitting on a big pile...but it still makes little 
financial

sense.

I would take exception with your knock on wood heat. A tree burned 
emits

no more than a a tree decayed on the forest floor.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 


wrote:


 > So, I have my roof covered with solar panels.
 > my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly
 > "basic connection fees" for solar "customers."

 So, 3 times $8/mo is $24/mo. Big deal...

 That is far-far (100 times ) cheaper than any home-energy storage 
system.


 Here is the lunacy of "going off-grid" when you already have it:

 EXAMPLE: I have 17kw of solar generating capacity at home. In 
Maryland, I
 probably get about 60kWh on a good day. (for a net-ZERO annual 
electric

 kWh bill) ... BUT!!! In the last 2 weeks we have had ONLY ONE sunny
 day. (this is rare)... On overcast days, I maybe get 6 kWh.

 But my electric load (now during worst winter solstice) is over 120 
kWh

 per day (geothermal heatpump).

 If I was off grid, I'd need at least SIX TESLA equivalent batteries 
to be

 able to continue living at the same life style, and then, in this
 particular weather pattern, we would have run out of heat after 3 
days and

 been cold fore more than a week. (they are forcasting 3 more days of
 clouds)...

 But with grid tie, NO PROBLEM. I stored up over 4 months of energy 
kWh in
 the grid, which should carry me though the winter to break even at 
zero by

 the spring.

 Even if they were not Tesla, but just Lead Acid batteries, and I 
wanted
 the same 5 day energy storage, I'd need 600 golf cart batteries, at 
$100
 each or about $60,000 investment in batteries AND I would need to 
maintain

 them FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE and replace them every few years.
 Lets say somehow they last 5 years, That is $12k per year or $1000 
per

 month.

 All of a sudden, the $8 per month compared to $1000 amortized battery
 cost looks really great indeed. (and zero maintenance for grid tie).

 But, HERE IS THE THING EVERYONE OVERLOOKS:

 1) Since you have to oversize your battery capacity to handle cloudy 
days,

 then BY DEFINITION, on every additional SUNNY day in a row, then your
 batteries are FULL and cannot accept any more charge. Thus you are
 WASTING almost all of your solar panel investment on GOOD SUNNY DAYS 
in a

 row!!! (and most every summer day).

 2) Even if you have say 5 days storage, that is miniscule compared to 
365
 days storage you get with the grid! In other words, you have no place 
to
 store the TWO-TIMES additional PV electricity you generate in the 
summer

 for when you need it most, in the winter. What a loss!

 Talk to anyone off-grid. They live a miserable life in the winter, 
barely

 scraping by, and then have excess solar power in the summer that they
 cannot even find ways to throw away because their batteries cannot 
take

 the extra.

 In Summary, if you have your own storage, and do NOT USE 100% of your
 solar capacity EVERY DAY, then you are throwing away your solar 
investment

 every afternoon after the batteries approach full.

 See http://aprs.org/off-grid-NOT.html

 The beauty of GRID-TIE is the UNLIMITED storage capacity, the lack of
 maintenance, and the

Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Michael Ross via EV]

I am with you Bob.  As aggravating as it dealing with a utility company,
and as attractive as it is to be free of them, it is rarely a good
financial decision to drop use of an available grid.  For as along as they
can, utilities will be pricing there service to discourage us from going
off grid.. THis will inevitably drop, but they will still be after some fee
if they can get it.  That grid connection is not just money but also
support and influence.

Maybe if one is sitting on a big pile...but it still makes little financial
sense.

I would take exception with your knock on wood heat.  A tree burned emits
no more than a a tree decayed on the forest floor.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> > So, I have my roof covered with solar panels.
> > my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly
> >  "basic connection fees" for solar "customers."
>
> So, 3 times $8/mo is $24/mo.Big deal...
>
> That is far-far (100 times ) cheaper than any home-energy storage system.
>
> Here is the lunacy of "going off-grid" when you already have it:
>
> EXAMPLE: I have 17kw of solar generating capacity at home.  In Maryland, I
> probably get about 60kWh on a good day.  (for a net-ZERO annual electric
> kWh bill)   ... BUT!!!  In the last 2 weeks we have had ONLY ONE sunny
> day. (this is rare)...  On overcast days, I maybe get 6 kWh.
>
> But my electric load (now during worst winter solstice) is over 120 kWh
> per day (geothermal heatpump).
>
> If I was off grid, I'd need at least SIX TESLA equivalent batteries to be
> able to continue living at the same life style, and then, in this
> particular weather pattern, we would have run out of heat after 3 days and
> been cold fore more than a week.  (they are forcasting 3 more days of
> clouds)...
>
> But with grid tie, NO PROBLEM. I stored up over 4 months of energy kWh in
> the grid, which should carry me though the winter to break even at zero by
> the spring.
>
> Even if they were not Tesla, but just Lead Acid batteries, and I wanted
> the same 5 day energy storage, I'd need 600 golf cart batteries, at $100
> each or about $60,000 investment in batteries AND I would need to maintain
> them FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE and replace them every few years.
> Lets say somehow they last 5 years,  That is $12k per year or $1000 per
> month.
>
> All of a sudden, the $8  per month compared to $1000 amortized battery
> cost looks really great indeed.  (and zero maintenance for grid tie).
>
> But, HERE IS THE THING EVERYONE OVERLOOKS:
>
> 1) Since you have to oversize your battery capacity to handle cloudy days,
> then BY DEFINITION, on every additional SUNNY day in a row, then your
> batteries are FULL and cannot accept any more charge.  Thus you are
> WASTING almost all of your solar panel investment on GOOD SUNNY DAYS in a
> row!!! (and most every summer day).
>
> 2) Even if you have say 5 days storage, that is miniscule compared to 365
> days storage you get with the grid!  In other words, you have no place to
> store the TWO-TIMES additional PV electricity you generate in the summer
> for when you need it most, in the winter.What a loss!
>
> Talk to anyone off-grid.  They live a miserable life in the winter, barely
> scraping by, and then have excess solar power in the summer that they
> cannot even find ways to throw away because their batteries cannot take
> the extra.
>
> In Summary, if you have your own storage, and do NOT USE 100% of your
> solar capacity EVERY DAY, then you are throwing away your solar investment
> every afternoon after the batteries approach full.
>
> See http://aprs.org/off-grid-NOT.html
>
> The beauty of GRID-TIE is the UNLIMITED storage capacity, the lack of
> maintenance, and the ability to store up summer excesss for use in the
> winter when you need it.
>
> Sure, you can burn oil, gas, propane, or wood for heat and drastically
> reduce your electric heating need, but then what about our goal of
> EMISSIONS FREE living?
>
> Bob, WB4aPR
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

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Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

[len moskowitz via EV]

Robert Bruninga wrote:


The beauty of GRID-TIE is the UNLIMITED storage capacity, the lack of
maintenance, and the ability to store up summer excesss for use in the
winter when you need it.


That's why Outback and couple of other manufacturers make PV system 
inverter/chargers that can operate both in grid tie and battery back-up 
modes.


You need some capacity for when the grid goes down, and you use the grid 
for storage during sunny stretches, and for long stretches when there's 
little sun.


Our last PV system had Marathon AGM (sealed) lead-acid batteries for 
back-up. Our new PV system probably will too.



Len Moskowitz
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[EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> So, I have my roof covered with solar panels.
> my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly
>  "basic connection fees" for solar "customers."

So, 3 times $8/mo is $24/mo.Big deal...

That is far-far (100 times ) cheaper than any home-energy storage system.

Here is the lunacy of "going off-grid" when you already have it:

EXAMPLE: I have 17kw of solar generating capacity at home.  In Maryland, I
probably get about 60kWh on a good day.  (for a net-ZERO annual electric
kWh bill)   ... BUT!!!  In the last 2 weeks we have had ONLY ONE sunny
day. (this is rare)...  On overcast days, I maybe get 6 kWh.

But my electric load (now during worst winter solstice) is over 120 kWh
per day (geothermal heatpump).

If I was off grid, I'd need at least SIX TESLA equivalent batteries to be
able to continue living at the same life style, and then, in this
particular weather pattern, we would have run out of heat after 3 days and
been cold fore more than a week.  (they are forcasting 3 more days of
clouds)...

But with grid tie, NO PROBLEM. I stored up over 4 months of energy kWh in
the grid, which should carry me though the winter to break even at zero by
the spring.

Even if they were not Tesla, but just Lead Acid batteries, and I wanted
the same 5 day energy storage, I'd need 600 golf cart batteries, at $100
each or about $60,000 investment in batteries AND I would need to maintain
them FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE and replace them every few years.
Lets say somehow they last 5 years,  That is $12k per year or $1000 per
month.

All of a sudden, the $8  per month compared to $1000 amortized battery
cost looks really great indeed.  (and zero maintenance for grid tie).

But, HERE IS THE THING EVERYONE OVERLOOKS:

1) Since you have to oversize your battery capacity to handle cloudy days,
then BY DEFINITION, on every additional SUNNY day in a row, then your
batteries are FULL and cannot accept any more charge.  Thus you are
WASTING almost all of your solar panel investment on GOOD SUNNY DAYS in a
row!!! (and most every summer day).

2) Even if you have say 5 days storage, that is miniscule compared to 365
days storage you get with the grid!  In other words, you have no place to
store the TWO-TIMES additional PV electricity you generate in the summer
for when you need it most, in the winter.What a loss!

Talk to anyone off-grid.  They live a miserable life in the winter, barely
scraping by, and then have excess solar power in the summer that they
cannot even find ways to throw away because their batteries cannot take
the extra.

In Summary, if you have your own storage, and do NOT USE 100% of your
solar capacity EVERY DAY, then you are throwing away your solar investment
every afternoon after the batteries approach full.

See http://aprs.org/off-grid-NOT.html

The beauty of GRID-TIE is the UNLIMITED storage capacity, the lack of
maintenance, and the ability to store up summer excesss for use in the
winter when you need it.

Sure, you can burn oil, gas, propane, or wood for heat and drastically
reduce your electric heating need, but then what about our goal of
EMISSIONS FREE living?

Bob, WB4aPR
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