Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid
brucedp5 via EV wrote: http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/electric-school-bus-052814.html Electric school buses that power grid could save school districts millions An interesting idea. But it all hinges on the utilities actually being willing to PAY a fair price for the power they take. So far, they haven't been willing to do that. They get to set the price, and pay as little as possible. -- I do not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. -- Frances Willard -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid
On Tue Jun 03 12:23:33 PDT 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said: An interesting idea. But it all hinges on the utilities actually being willing to PAY a fair price for the power they take. So far, they haven't been willing to do that. They get to set the price, and pay as little as possible. Also, depends on what you mean by Fair price. Retail isn't fair. Possible what they pay per KWH for peaking generation might be ok. -- Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid
John, you said,Also, depends on what you mean by Fair price. Retail isn't fair. Possible what they pay per KWH for peaking generation might be ok That makes no logical sense. IMHO selling a utility the power in your battery at less than The utility will charge you to replace it and having to buy extra because charging is not 100% efficient. Is not economical. However the utilitys in several states are challenging that scenario in court, because they want to pay only 50% of retail and nothing for home-made power like solar or wind turbine produced power. Electric bus service for the schoolchildren and for the public also, has all the advantages listed except V2G, because deals with utilities are not looking reasonable. *Dennis Lee Miles * *Director **E.V.T.I. Inc.* *E-Mail:* *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913* Dade City, Florida 33523 USA On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:52 PM, John Lussmyer via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Tue Jun 03 12:23:33 PDT 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said: An interesting idea. But it all hinges on the utilities actually being willing to PAY a fair price for the power they take. So far, they haven't been willing to do that. They get to set the price, and pay as little as possible. Also, depends on what you mean by Fair price. Retail isn't fair. Possible what they pay per KWH for peaking generation might be ok. -- Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140603/92c2c771/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid
V2G is not about draining the battery entirely to keep the grid from collapsing, but more about short bursts of high power that help stabilize the grid, comparable to the power needed to brake/accelerate again. So, even after a vehicle has helped stabilize the grid, its state of charge will be similar as when it started supporting the grid. In addition, the battery of the EV chan be charged normally (with brief interruptions for grid stabilization) so in the course of a day it is no problem to charge its battery to a preset minimum charge level or to full. Of course there is some wear and tear on a pack from grid assistance, but it is nothing like a full discharge/charge cycle - batteries are much better capable of handling many short cycle discharge/charge events than full charge, otherwise the Hybrid vehicles would not get over 10 years of life from the Hybrid battery packs. So, the utility should pay for the service, since this avoids their own installation of grid backup storage, which is not only actually done but also heavily subsidized with grants if you do install a grid backup system. So - why not in vehicles? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of harry henderson via EV Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:53 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid i understand the benefits and savings of using electric bus in stead of fossil fuels one, but how is feeding the power grid beneficial? are they using the battery storage as a buffer for peak demand [e.g. noon or when folks get home after work/school]? the buses could offer some help midday, but they would be spent for the afternoon? harry Albuquerque, NM current bike: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179 current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000 On Tue, 6/3/14, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid To: ev@lists.evdl.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2014, 2:06 AM http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/electric-school-bus-052814.html Electric school buses that power grid could save school districts millions May 28, 2014 by Teresa Messmore [image / Trans Tech Bus http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/images/ElectricSchoolBus.jpg Electric school buses, such as the Trans Tech model shown here, could save school districts millions if integrated with a vehicle-to-grid system, according to new research ] Diesel bus alternative Electric school buses that power grid could save school districts millions 9:29 a.m., May 28, 2014--Electric school buses that feed the power grid could save school districts millions of dollars - and reduce children's exposure to diesel fumes - based on recent research by the University of Delaware's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment (CEOE). A new study examines the cost-effectiveness of electric school buses that discharge their batteries into the electrical grid when not in use and get paid for the service. The technology, called vehicle-to-grid (V2G), was pioneered at UD and is being tested with electric cars in a pilot project. Adapting the system for school bus fleets is a logical application. School buses generally travel distances within electric vehicles' battery range, and they are not in use for much of the day. Electric school buses also do not release sooty diesel exhaust, which contains pollutants that can cause respiratory irritation, lung cancer and heart disease. I see neighborhood kids waiting for and riding school buses out my window or when walking my dog, said Jeremy Firestone, CEOE professor of marine policy and director of the Center for Carbon-free Power Integration. Electric buses have the benefit of kids not standing around or having their windows open while diesel fumes are being released. For the study, researchers analyzed existing diesel school bus routes in a mid-sized suburban school district in Delaware and calculated the costs and benefits of V2G-capable electric bus replacements. Over 14 years, which is the typical lifespan of a bus, a V2G electric bus fleet could save an estimated $38 million. I was surprised, said study lead author Lance Noel. The savings go through the roof. The economic research took into account costs associated with fuel, electricity and batteries, as well as pollution-related health care expenses and other factors. A diesel bus costs $110,000, compared with $260,000 for an electric bus equipped with a V2G-capable, 70-kilowatt on-board charger. Diesel buses have an average fuel economy of 6 miles per
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$power the grid
Cor, Using the busses for grid stabilization makes sense. My question is how does that help the utility avoid having its own stabilization system? That is, while the busses are parked, they are doing some stabilization. However, when they're out on their route, they aren't. So, doesn't the utility have to have its own equivalent capabilities to handle that period? Peri -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: 03 June, 2014 2:19 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$power the grid V2G is not about draining the battery entirely to keep the grid from collapsing, but more about short bursts of high power that help stabilize the grid, comparable to the power needed to brake/accelerate again. So, even after a vehicle has helped stabilize the grid, its state of charge will be similar as when it started supporting the grid. In addition, the battery of the EV chan be charged normally (with brief interruptions for grid stabilization) so in the course of a day it is no problem to charge its battery to a preset minimum charge level or to full. Of course there is some wear and tear on a pack from grid assistance, but it is nothing like a full discharge/charge cycle - batteries are much better capable of handling many short cycle discharge/charge events than full charge, otherwise the Hybrid vehicles would not get over 10 years of life from the Hybrid battery packs. So, the utility should pay for the service, since this avoids their own installation of grid backup storage, which is not only actually done but also heavily subsidized with grants if you do install a grid backup system. So - why not in vehicles? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of harry henderson via EV Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:53 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid i understand the benefits and savings of using electric bus in stead of fossil fuels one, but how is feeding the power grid beneficial? are they using the battery storage as a buffer for peak demand [e.g. noon or when folks get home after work/school]? the buses could offer some help midday, but they would be spent for the afternoon? harry Albuquerque, NM current bike: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179 current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000 On Tue, 6/3/14, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid To: ev@lists.evdl.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2014, 2:06 AM http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/electric-school-bus-052814.html Electric school buses that power grid could save school districts millions May 28, 2014 by Teresa Messmore [image / Trans Tech Bus http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/images/ElectricSchoolBus.jpg Electric school buses, such as the Trans Tech model shown here, could save school districts millions if integrated with a vehicle-to-grid system, according to new research ] Diesel bus alternative Electric school buses that power grid could save school districts millions 9:29 a.m., May 28, 2014--Electric school buses that feed the power grid could save school districts millions of dollars - and reduce children's exposure to diesel fumes - based on recent research by the University of Delaware's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment (CEOE). A new study examines the cost-effectiveness of electric school buses that discharge their batteries into the electrical grid when not in use and get paid for the service. The technology, called vehicle-to-grid (V2G), was pioneered at UD and is being tested with electric cars in a pilot project. Adapting the system for school bus fleets is a logical application. School buses generally travel distances within electric vehicles' battery range, and they are not in use for much of the day. Electric school buses also do not release sooty diesel exhaust, which contains pollutants that can cause respiratory irritation, lung cancer and heart disease. I see neighborhood kids waiting for and riding school buses out my window or when walking my dog, said Jeremy Firestone, CEOE professor of marine policy and director of the Center for Carbon-free Power Integration. Electric buses have the benefit of kids not standing around or having their windows open while diesel fumes are being released. For the study, researchers analyzed existing diesel school bus routes in a mid-sized suburban school district in Delaware and calculated the costs and benefits
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid
As I see it, V2G may be beneficial to the electric utility, And it may not be very harmful to the Vehicle battery (and owner) but I will not participate if there is not some economic advantage to me... Further , if the electric utility invests in equipment to utilize V2G and fails to invest in increased generating capacity as is the normal practice then eventually the necessary capacity will be needed. and rates will rise to pay for the additional capacity (Perhaps they could add sustainable power generation to their portfolio) It is always a Pay-Pay result to the consumers. *Dennis Lee Miles * *Director **E.V.T.I. Inc.* *E-Mail:* *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913* Dade City, Florida 33523 USA On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: V2G is not about draining the battery entirely to keep the grid from collapsing, but more about short bursts of high power that help stabilize the grid, comparable to the power needed to brake/accelerate again. So, even after a vehicle has helped stabilize the grid, its state of charge will be similar as when it started supporting the grid. In addition, the battery of the EV chan be charged normally (with brief interruptions for grid stabilization) so in the course of a day it is no problem to charge its battery to a preset minimum charge level or to full. Of course there is some wear and tear on a pack from grid assistance, but it is nothing like a full discharge/charge cycle - batteries are much better capable of handling many short cycle discharge/charge events than full charge, otherwise the Hybrid vehicles would not get over 10 years of life from the Hybrid battery packs. So, the utility should pay for the service, since this avoids their own installation of grid backup storage, which is not only actually done but also heavily subsidized with grants if you do install a grid backup system. So - why not in vehicles? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of harry henderson via EV Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:53 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid i understand the benefits and savings of using electric bus in stead of fossil fuels one, but how is feeding the power grid beneficial? are they using the battery storage as a buffer for peak demand [e.g. noon or when folks get home after work/school]? the buses could offer some help midday, but they would be spent for the afternoon? harry Albuquerque, NM current bike: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179 current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000 On Tue, 6/3/14, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid To: ev@lists.evdl.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2014, 2:06 AM http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/electric-school-bus-052814.html Electric school buses that power grid could save school districts millions May 28, 2014 by Teresa Messmore [image / Trans Tech Bus http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/images/ElectricSchoolBus.jpg Electric school buses, such as the Trans Tech model shown here, could save school districts millions if integrated with a vehicle-to-grid system, according to new research ] Diesel bus alternative Electric school buses that power grid could save school districts millions 9:29 a.m., May 28, 2014--Electric school buses that feed the power grid could save school districts millions of dollars - and reduce children's exposure to diesel fumes - based on recent research by the University of Delaware's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment (CEOE). A new study examines the cost-effectiveness of electric school buses that discharge their batteries into the electrical grid when not in use and get paid for the service. The technology, called vehicle-to-grid (V2G), was pioneered at UD and is being tested with electric cars in a pilot project. Adapting the system for school bus fleets is a logical application. School buses generally travel distances within electric vehicles' battery range, and they are not in use for much of the day. Electric school buses also do not release sooty diesel exhaust, which contains pollutants that can cause respiratory irritation, lung cancer and heart disease. I see neighborhood kids waiting for and riding school buses out my window or when walking my dog, said Jeremy Firestone, CEOE professor of marine policy and director of the Center for Carbon-free Power Integration
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$power the grid
the utilities already have Peaking Units for stabilization. *Dennis Lee Miles * *Director **E.V.T.I. Inc.* *E-Mail:* *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913* Dade City, Florida 33523 USA On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 5:39 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Cor, Using the busses for grid stabilization makes sense. My question is how does that help the utility avoid having its own stabilization system? That is, while the busses are parked, they are doing some stabilization. However, when they're out on their route, they aren't. So, doesn't the utility have to have its own equivalent capabilities to handle that period? Peri -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: 03 June, 2014 2:19 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$power the grid V2G is not about draining the battery entirely to keep the grid from collapsing, but more about short bursts of high power that help stabilize the grid, comparable to the power needed to brake/accelerate again. So, even after a vehicle has helped stabilize the grid, its state of charge will be similar as when it started supporting the grid. In addition, the battery of the EV chan be charged normally (with brief interruptions for grid stabilization) so in the course of a day it is no problem to charge its battery to a preset minimum charge level or to full. Of course there is some wear and tear on a pack from grid assistance, but it is nothing like a full discharge/charge cycle - batteries are much better capable of handling many short cycle discharge/charge events than full charge, otherwise the Hybrid vehicles would not get over 10 years of life from the Hybrid battery packs. So, the utility should pay for the service, since this avoids their own installation of grid backup storage, which is not only actually done but also heavily subsidized with grants if you do install a grid backup system. So - why not in vehicles? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of harry henderson via EV Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:53 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid i understand the benefits and savings of using electric bus in stead of fossil fuels one, but how is feeding the power grid beneficial? are they using the battery storage as a buffer for peak demand [e.g. noon or when folks get home after work/school]? the buses could offer some help midday, but they would be spent for the afternoon? harry Albuquerque, NM current bike: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179 current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000 On Tue, 6/3/14, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ power the grid To: ev@lists.evdl.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2014, 2:06 AM http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/electric-school-bus-052814.html Electric school buses that power grid could save school districts millions May 28, 2014 by Teresa Messmore [image / Trans Tech Bus http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/images/ElectricSchoolBus.jpg Electric school buses, such as the Trans Tech model shown here, could save school districts millions if integrated with a vehicle-to-grid system, according to new research ] Diesel bus alternative Electric school buses that power grid could save school districts millions 9:29 a.m., May 28, 2014--Electric school buses that feed the power grid could save school districts millions of dollars - and reduce children's exposure to diesel fumes - based on recent research by the University of Delaware's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment (CEOE). A new study examines the cost-effectiveness of electric school buses that discharge their batteries into the electrical grid when not in use and get paid for the service. The technology, called vehicle-to-grid (V2G), was pioneered at UD and is being tested with electric cars in a pilot project. Adapting the system for school bus fleets is a logical application. School buses generally travel distances within electric vehicles' battery range, and they are not in use for much of the day. Electric school buses also do not release sooty diesel exhaust, which contains pollutants that can cause respiratory irritation, lung cancer and heart disease. I see neighborhood kids waiting for and riding school buses out my window or when walking my dog
