Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I'm in agreement with most of this.

Energy storage *is* the key for the further and in dealing with renewables.

The technology to use can vary, and depends on several factors, such as the 
scale of storage, and time needed for storage. In dealing excess renewables, 
batteries are probably the way to go for home storage. For large scale, and for 
periods longer than 4 hours, hydrogen is best.

In terms of the question you posed of where to store, there are projects where 
the natural gas pipeline is stored. Actually, there are a number of possible 
endpoints. You will be interested in the recently released white paper on this, 
at http://tinyurl.com/qg267uz.

This was prepared by the California Hydrogen Business Council, where I am 
Immediate Past President.

One last note on another comment you made, the industry *is* moving quickly 
towards renewable hydrogen. Within the next few years, hydrogen pumped in 
vehicles will have a higher renewable content than that of the grid, where 
California has aggressive goals for renewable content.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> H2 as an energy storage medium and source of power for EVs to has
> theoretical merit if we ever have truly significant renewable power
> generation in the US.
> 
> In this scenario the inefficiencies are of less consequence because on a
> very large scale storing H2 is quite cheap particularly in comparison to
> batteries. You just need big tanks.  Comparable battery storage is hard to
> even conceive.
> 
> Batteries look OK in EVs assuming we can really make enough of them.
> There is a choice to be made between EVs getting charged from a grid or
> mounting a tank and fuel cell or H2 ICE.  But smoothing out renewable power
> into a 24 hour cycle is tricky. We don't have a good, really large scale
> way to do this, and we need one.
> 
> Once you have that renewable capacity the economics of H2 looks a lot
> better.  Assuming we need to get out of the fossil fuel business and I
> accept that, then we need a really simple storage means for generated
> energy, H2 makes sense.  Batteries, pumped hydro, and so on don't scale
> well to this level.
> 
> Returning  to Toyota and their choice to stick with ICE and fuel cells -
> for a really long game they may be onto something. I have no idea I'd this
> is their thinking.
 On Oct 16, 2015 3:34 PM, "Ben Goren via EV"  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:54 AM, Roland  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Install the hydrogen tank in a ICE vehicle using standard propane
>> equipment that I was already running the engine on.
>> 
>> We're obviously veering sharply offtopic, now. Some years back I looked
>> into doing pretty much that -- running H2 in, in this case, an aircooled
>> '68 VW Westfalia Campmobile in the stock engine with a modified fuel intake
>> system, similar to a propane conversion. I seem to remember that there was
>> somebody in Tucson that had done it with a pickup truck of some sort. I'd
>> use electricity from rooftop solar panels to analyze water and collect the
>> hydrogen.
>> 
>> The numbers just didn't add up. The volumetric density of H2 at sane
>> pressures is abysmal and the embrittlement of the engine from constant
>> exposure to H2 was going to shorten the lift of the engine enough that it
>> didn't make environmental sense. And all that's before getting into the
>> question of putting in an hydrogen storage tank plus the collection and
>> compression facilities and how to get from storage tank to the vehicle...in
>> the middle of suburbia...
>> 
>> ...compare that with even a lead acid EV conversion and the difference is
>> quite stark. Comparable driving range, potentially much superior driving
>> performance, much better inherent safety, and _far_ easier recharging. And
>> the entire system's energy efficiency is so much better with electric
>> rather than all the waste of analyzing the hydrogen and compressing it and
>> so on.
>> 
>> That was the final piece of the puzzle. Both methods went from solar
>> panels on the house's roof to propelling the car. One method was very
>> direct and simple and efficient; the other was an insane and wasteful Rube
>> Goldberg kludge.
>> 
>> The fool cell is only marginally better than running H2 in an internal
>> combustion engine (which most any engine built for gasoline will happily do
>> with no more than modifications to the intake and operating parameters like
>> timing). Even still, lead acid would have a fool cell beat...and, with
>> modern battery chemistries? There's no comparison.
>> 
>> b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050

[Michael Ross via EV]

H2 as an energy storage medium and source of power for EVs to has
theoretical merit if we ever have truly significant renewable power
generation in the US.

In this scenario the inefficiencies are of less consequence because on a
very large scale storing H2 is quite cheap particularly in comparison to
batteries. You just need big tanks.  Comparable battery storage is hard to
even conceive.

Batteries look OK in EVs assuming we can really make enough of them.
There is a choice to be made between EVs getting charged from a grid or
mounting a tank and fuel cell or H2 ICE.  But smoothing out renewable power
into a 24 hour cycle is tricky. We don't have a good, really large scale
way to do this, and we need one.

Once you have that renewable capacity the economics of H2 looks a lot
better.  Assuming we need to get out of the fossil fuel business and I
accept that, then we need a really simple storage means for generated
energy, H2 makes sense.  Batteries, pumped hydro, and so on don't scale
well to this level.

Returning  to Toyota and their choice to stick with ICE and fuel cells -
for a really long game they may be onto something. I have no idea I'd this
is their thinking.
On Oct 16, 2015 3:34 PM, "Ben Goren via EV"  wrote:

> On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:54 AM, Roland  wrote:
>
> > Install the hydrogen tank in a ICE vehicle using standard propane
> equipment that I was already running the engine on.
>
> We're obviously veering sharply offtopic, now. Some years back I looked
> into doing pretty much that -- running H2 in, in this case, an aircooled
> '68 VW Westfalia Campmobile in the stock engine with a modified fuel intake
> system, similar to a propane conversion. I seem to remember that there was
> somebody in Tucson that had done it with a pickup truck of some sort. I'd
> use electricity from rooftop solar panels to analyze water and collect the
> hydrogen.
>
> The numbers just didn't add up. The volumetric density of H2 at sane
> pressures is abysmal and the embrittlement of the engine from constant
> exposure to H2 was going to shorten the lift of the engine enough that it
> didn't make environmental sense. And all that's before getting into the
> question of putting in an hydrogen storage tank plus the collection and
> compression facilities and how to get from storage tank to the vehicle...in
> the middle of suburbia...
>
> ...compare that with even a lead acid EV conversion and the difference is
> quite stark. Comparable driving range, potentially much superior driving
> performance, much better inherent safety, and _far_ easier recharging. And
> the entire system's energy efficiency is so much better with electric
> rather than all the waste of analyzing the hydrogen and compressing it and
> so on.
>
> That was the final piece of the puzzle. Both methods went from solar
> panels on the house's roof to propelling the car. One method was very
> direct and simple and efficient; the other was an insane and wasteful Rube
> Goldberg kludge.
>
> The fool cell is only marginally better than running H2 in an internal
> combustion engine (which most any engine built for gasoline will happily do
> with no more than modifications to the intake and operating parameters like
> timing). Even still, lead acid would have a fool cell beat...and, with
> modern battery chemistries? There's no comparison.
>
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:54 AM, Roland  wrote:

> Install the hydrogen tank in a ICE vehicle using standard propane equipment 
> that I was already running the engine on.

We're obviously veering sharply offtopic, now. Some years back I looked into 
doing pretty much that -- running H2 in, in this case, an aircooled '68 VW 
Westfalia Campmobile in the stock engine with a modified fuel intake system, 
similar to a propane conversion. I seem to remember that there was somebody in 
Tucson that had done it with a pickup truck of some sort. I'd use electricity 
from rooftop solar panels to analyze water and collect the hydrogen.

The numbers just didn't add up. The volumetric density of H2 at sane pressures 
is abysmal and the embrittlement of the engine from constant exposure to H2 was 
going to shorten the lift of the engine enough that it didn't make 
environmental sense. And all that's before getting into the question of putting 
in an hydrogen storage tank plus the collection and compression facilities and 
how to get from storage tank to the vehicle...in the middle of suburbia...

...compare that with even a lead acid EV conversion and the difference is quite 
stark. Comparable driving range, potentially much superior driving performance, 
much better inherent safety, and _far_ easier recharging. And the entire 
system's energy efficiency is so much better with electric rather than all the 
waste of analyzing the hydrogen and compressing it and so on.

That was the final piece of the puzzle. Both methods went from solar panels on 
the house's roof to propelling the car. One method was very direct and simple 
and efficient; the other was an insane and wasteful Rube Goldberg kludge.

The fool cell is only marginally better than running H2 in an internal 
combustion engine (which most any engine built for gasoline will happily do 
with no more than modifications to the intake and operating parameters like 
timing). Even still, lead acid would have a fool cell beat...and, with modern 
battery chemistries? There's no comparison.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050

[Roland via EV]

   
Back in the seventies, I experiment with hydrogen.  Did not purchase hydrogen 
gas that comes in a pressure tank that I can get from the local welding supply 
company that also sells, oxygen, propane and machines that can produce these 
gasses. 

 

To produce hydrogen, you use water and KOH (potassium hydroxide).  Add this 
mixture into a standard electrolysis vessel that is use to make distill water.  
Store the hydrogen gas in a pressure tank.  This same equipment is also use for 
making hydrogen gas for cutting torches.  

 

Install the hydrogen tank in a ICE vehicle using standard propane equipment 
that I was already running the engine on.  Use a duel fuel carburetor that is 
design to run on alcohol and propane.  

 

The hydrogen ignites without any compression, so the engine had to be ignition 
retarded to about -2 degrees below top center.  Use a high voltage ignition 
system by Pro Start the that reads the ignition resistance and adjust that 
voltage to that one cylinder.  It will also continue to pulse the spark plug if 
it did not ignite the first time.  This ignition method was use, because as the 
hydrogen explodes, it produces water which will foul the spark plug which the 
pulse ignition cleans. 

 

Instead of using a engine, this method can also be use in a remote cabin that 
has no commercial power source, or even in a EV with the standard battery pack. 
 In either of this case, we add a fuel cell that produces the electricity.  In 
a EV the standard battery pack is still use,  when the EV stops and parks,   
The fuel cell charges the battery at his time.  As the EV is started up, the 
fuel cell goes off line and the battery runs the EV.  The REGEN produces the 
energy to make more hydrogen.  

 

The standard engine is not a good prime mover for this system.  It was found 
that a turbine engine works better.

 

Roland


- Original Message - 

From: Ben Goren via EV 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 

Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 8:53 AM

Subject: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050



Off-topic because EVs aren't what they're switching to.

http://phys.org/news/2015-10-toyota-aims-gasoline-cars.html

Between VW and now Toyota, the big automakers are signaling that we're now 
officially at the end of the ICE era and that the transition to a post-ICE 
world has begun.

Toyota's fool cells, of course, haven't a prayer. Who's going to want a car 
that you have to go somewhere (that doesn't actually exist today) to pay to 
fill up when all the other cars already charge at home for free?

But riffing off the speculation in the other thread about retrofitting VW 
diesels with electric drivetrains...would I be correct in thinking that such a 
retrofit would be a lot easier with a fool cell? You've already got the 
electric motor for propulsion; rip out the H2 tank and the fool cell itself and 
fill that space with batteries and you've got a real EV.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050

[dovepa via EV]

Fuel cells still burn fossil fuels. Hydrogen is made from natural gas 
currently. Oil companies are just trying to stay in the market IMO


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Ben Goren via EV  Date: 10/16/2015  10:45 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: EVDL Administrator , Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to 
nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050 
On Oct 16, 2015, at 8:35 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> Compared to EVs, they were noisy, stinky, and
> unreliable.  The fuel was hard to get, and dangerous to store.

But there're a lot of big differences today. For one, the whole field of 
vehicles was brand-new -- as was the electric grid. For another, oil was 
literally dirt cheap; be careless with a pickaxe in Texas and you'd set off a 
gusher. The big one was the energy density of batteries...we just now, well 
over a century later, have batteries that are _barely_ up to the task of being 
built into competitive vehicles, even as the density of gasoline still stomps 
all over batteries. Back in the day, with lead acid and iron-nickel the 
bleeding edge of technology, there's just no way that you could even have 
pretended to have made intercity trips or plowed a field or the like with 
batteries -- but, even then, that was trivial with gasoline.

Today, you can buy a new electric vehicle at some of your local dealers. You 
can charge it at home for, with rounding, free. Huge numbers of people do so, 
and the most-talked-about cars these days, from Tesla, are all electric.

Are there even any fool cell vehicles for sale anywhere in the States? I'm sure 
there aren't any H2 stations anywhere near me -- maybe not even within range of 
the vehicle. What's the cost of H2 at the pump in those nonexistent places you 
can't get it? Are there any fool cell vehicles as cheap and as nice as my 
parents's $14K 2013 Leaf? Are there any as sexy as a Tesla? Who's racing fool 
cells -- where's the NEDRA equivalent, an Eva in her fastest-sidecar-on-Earth, 
or a Formula E? Stop people on the street; all will have heard of Tesla and 
will know about EVs...but how many are even aware that Toyota has plans to sell 
cars that run on hydrogen?

It's stil early enough in the game that a concerted effort could submarine EVs 
in favor of fool cells...but that window is closing fast, and is already almost 
closed. Indeed, VW may have just slammed it shut.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Oct 16, 2015, at 8:35 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> Compared to EVs, they were noisy, stinky, and
> unreliable.  The fuel was hard to get, and dangerous to store.

But there're a lot of big differences today. For one, the whole field of 
vehicles was brand-new -- as was the electric grid. For another, oil was 
literally dirt cheap; be careless with a pickaxe in Texas and you'd set off a 
gusher. The big one was the energy density of batteries...we just now, well 
over a century later, have batteries that are _barely_ up to the task of being 
built into competitive vehicles, even as the density of gasoline still stomps 
all over batteries. Back in the day, with lead acid and iron-nickel the 
bleeding edge of technology, there's just no way that you could even have 
pretended to have made intercity trips or plowed a field or the like with 
batteries -- but, even then, that was trivial with gasoline.

Today, you can buy a new electric vehicle at some of your local dealers. You 
can charge it at home for, with rounding, free. Huge numbers of people do so, 
and the most-talked-about cars these days, from Tesla, are all electric.

Are there even any fool cell vehicles for sale anywhere in the States? I'm sure 
there aren't any H2 stations anywhere near me -- maybe not even within range of 
the vehicle. What's the cost of H2 at the pump in those nonexistent places you 
can't get it? Are there any fool cell vehicles as cheap and as nice as my 
parents's $14K 2013 Leaf? Are there any as sexy as a Tesla? Who's racing fool 
cells -- where's the NEDRA equivalent, an Eva in her fastest-sidecar-on-Earth, 
or a Formula E? Stop people on the street; all will have heard of Tesla and 
will know about EVs...but how many are even aware that Toyota has plans to sell 
cars that run on hydrogen?

It's stil early enough in the game that a concerted effort could submarine EVs 
in favor of fool cells...but that window is closing fast, and is already almost 
closed. Indeed, VW may have just slammed it shut.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 16 Oct 2015 at 7:53, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

> Toyota's fool cells, of course, haven't a prayer.

You might well have said the same thing about gasoline cars in the early 
years of the 20th century.  Compared to EVs, they were noisy, stinky, and 
unreliable.  The fuel was hard to get, and dangerous to store.

But look what happened.

The same thing could happen with hydrogen and fuel cells, if the right 
people and corporations stand to make obscene amounts of money from it.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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