Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Thanks Bruno On 11/11/2015 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi George, Congratulations! Best wishes for you and your amazing work. I am not convinced but that might only be due to my incompetence in the field. I will make a further look. Bruno On 10 Nov 2015, at 23:10, George Levy wrote:

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Hi George, Congratulations! Best wishes for you and your amazing work. I am not convinced but that might only be due to my incompetence in the field. I will make a further look. Bruno On 10 Nov 2015, at 23:10, George Levy wrote: I would like to update the members of this list on what I

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

I would like to update the members of this list on what I have been up to recently (and revive an old thread). My latest paper "Quantum Game Beats Classical Odds - Thermodynamics Implications" has just been published by the Journal Entropy under the section "Statistical Mechanics" after a stric

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Richard you are making an interesting link. If the early universe carried a BEC then the stage was set for a big entropic reset. For this to occur, you would need a force field producing a global temperature gradient or multiple local gradients, and a means (i.e., heat engine) for converting t

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: > Experimental results at several high-energy colliders suggest that at > some point in the big bang the universe was a quark-gluon plasma, which > despite it's high energy, is a BEC where all the particles share the same > wave function- s

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

John, Experimental results at several high-energy colliders suggest that at some point in the big bang the universe was a quark-gluon plasma, which despite it's high energy, is a BEC where all the particles share the same wave function- so they say. It seems to me that if all particles in the univ

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 4:29 PM, George wrote: > As I have explained > in previous posts, it is my opinion that Loschmidt was wrong in thinking > that a Maxwellian gas column could power a perpetual motion machine of the > Second kind which wo

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Hi Russel, Liz Please feel free to forward these emails to people who may shed some light on this issue. As I mentioned I consider myself more a student than an expert and I welcome anyone who could either prove or disprove these ideas. Russell, from your previous post you appear to be one o

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

I'm with Liz - I suspect that George is using a specific version of entropy that is (say) only applicable for canonical or microcanonical ensembles, and that the second law actually survives because the system is in neither ensemble. But I could be wrong - its been far too many years since I studi

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Is this a violation of the 2nd law, or is it an outcome of the 2nd law that doesn't take the expected form? (I would expect a violation of the law to involve something anti-entropic going on, which would look to us like time running backwards). On 29 November 2014 at 10:48, George wrote: > Than

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Thank you Liz, Bruce and John for your comments. I am grateful that you are forcing me to explain myself in simple terms, and this is exactly what I need to do. I am definitely not an expert in this field. I consider myself more like a student and I am eager for constructive and informed feedba

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: >> The 2nd law is like that - unlikely things generally failing to happen - >> on the molecular scale, a zillion times per second. You can't circumvent it >> unless you can circumvent the maths of probability. >> > > > Which means that it coun

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

LizR wrote: I don't understand how this works, so I can't comment on the details. I seem to remember asking for a simple version that a dummy like me can understand - and don't recall seeing it, although maybe I missed it. But in any case the 2nd law isn't a law of physics, it's just what tend

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

I don't understand how this works, so I can't comment on the details. I seem to remember asking for a simple version that a dummy like me can understand - and don't recall seeing it, although maybe I missed it. But in any case the 2nd law isn't a law of physics, it's just what tends to happen give

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Hi everyone Not much of a response... answering the two questions below: Answer to question 1: If air is forcefully convected in a column having an isothermal temperature gradient, the column shifts toward an adiabatic gradient. Paradoxically, mixing does not equalize temperature, as is well

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

The gas does not flow unidirectionally in the column as in a pipe. There is no net flow. Convection involves a cyclic, mostly vertical, movement of gas in the column. Here is a thought experiment you may consider. A column of gas in a gravitational field is initially assigned an isothermal t

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 6:28 PM, George wrote: > There is no convection current even though gas near the floor is hotter > than gas near the ceiling. The reason is that gas rising in an adiabatic > column expands and cools exactly at the same rate as the adiabatic > temperature lapse and therefor

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

George wrote: Thanks Bruno, Bruce, Brent, Liz, John for your responses. 1) Regarding convection currents in a gas column with an adiabatic temperature profile. There is no convection current even though gas near the floor is hotter than gas near the ceiling. The reason is that gas risi

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Thanks Bruno, Bruce, Brent, Liz, John for your responses. 1)Regarding convection currents in a gas column with an adiabatic temperature profile. There is no convection current even though gas near the floor is hotter than gas near the ceiling. The reason is that gas rising in an adiabatic colu

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > I think the answer probably lies in the fact that the situation described > is not stable -- the system is not in thermal equilibrium. As stated, the > gas at the top of the column tends to be cooler because of the higher > gravitational po

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

meekerdb wrote: On 11/22/2014 10:07 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 11/22/2014 8:48 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: John Clark wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 , meekerdb > wrote: > Loschmidt's idea was that an isolated column of gas in a gravitational f

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On 11/22/2014 10:07 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 11/22/2014 8:48 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: John Clark wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 , meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: > Loschmidt's idea was that an isolated column of gas in a gravitational field would develo

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

meekerdb wrote: On 11/22/2014 8:48 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: John Clark wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 , meekerdb > wrote: > Loschmidt's idea was that an isolated column of gas in a gravitational field would develop a temperature gradient, warmer at the to

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On 11/22/2014 8:48 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: John Clark wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 , meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: > Loschmidt's idea was that an isolated column of gas in a gravitational field would develop a temperature gradient, warmer at the top. I believe tha

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

John Clark wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 , meekerdb > wrote: > Loschmidt's idea was that an isolated column of gas in a gravitational field would develop a temperature gradient, warmer at the top. I believe that would be cooler at the top not warmer,.

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Every time something appears to violate the 2nd law, gravity is involved. There is some sort of tension between thermodynamic and gravitational equilibrium, although obviously any system far from equilibrium should tend towards it (if it does anything at all). (Hence my stipulation of flat space wh

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:13 PM, George wrote: > I love the quote from Arthur Eddington. Let me have the pleasure to > cite it for you. > > "If your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics, I > give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest > humilia

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On 11/22/2014 3:13 PM, George wrote: Hi Liz, Brent, John I love the quote from Arthur Eddington. Let me have the pleasure to cite it for you. "If your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics, I give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepes

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Hi Liz, Brent, John I love the quote from Arthur Eddington. Let me have the pleasure to cite it for you. "If your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics, I give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." This quote is an ad

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On 11/22/2014 1:09 PM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 , meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: > Loschmidt's idea was that an isolated column of gas in a gravitational field would develop a temperature gradient, warmer at the top. You're right - just a brain slip on m

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 , meekerdb wrote: > Loschmidt's idea was that an isolated column of gas in a gravitational > field would develop a temperature gradient, warmer at the top. > I believe that would be cooler at the top not warmer,. molecules at the top of a column of gas would have more gravit

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On 11/21/2014 10:39 PM, LizR wrote: Is it possible to explain to a person of modest intelligence such as myself exacty how you're violating the 2nd law? (Otherwise I may feel compelled to quote Arthur Eddington...) Loschmidt's idea was that an isolated column of gas in a gravitational field w

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Is it possible to explain to a person of modest intelligence such as myself exacty how you're violating the 2nd law? (Otherwise I may feel compelled to quote Arthur Eddington...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On 11/21/2014 2:44 PM, George wrote: If one considers an exponential distribution such as e^(-KE-PE) where PE is a function of elevation then at ground level one would have e^(-KE) and at a given elevation h e^(-KE-PE) = e^(-PE)e^(-KE) Renormalizing for the lower density the distribution at elev

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

If one considers an exponential distribution such as e^(-KE-PE) where PE is a function of elevation then at ground level one would have e^(-KE) and at a given elevation h e^(-KE-PE) = e^(-PE)e^(-KE) Renormalizing for the lower density the distribution at elevation becomes e^(-KE) which is identic

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On 11/20/2014 9:07 PM, George wrote: Brent you are right. Maxwell distribution is not exponential with energy. For the purpose of comparing the different distributions, I was attempting to give the same form to all distributions Maxwell, Fermi-Dirac and Bose-Einstein independently of the scalin

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On 21 Nov 2014, at 00:57, George wrote: Thanks Bruno, Liz and Richard for your responses. The topic is extremely controversial… OK. It took me a few months of sleepless nights to come to term with these ideas…. but let reason prevail. I am looking forward to an open and rational discu

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Brent you are right. Maxwell distribution is not exponential with energy. For the purpose of comparing the different distributions, I was attempting to give the same form to all distributions Maxwell, Fermi-Dirac and Bose-Einstein independently of the scaling factor in front of the exponential.

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On 11/20/2014 6:28 PM, George wrote: Maxwell's distribution f = e^(-E/kT) where E = (1/2) mv^2 ?? Distribution with respect to energy is: f_E\,dE=f_p\left(\frac{dp}{dE}\right)\,dE =2\sqrt{\frac{E}{\pi}} \left(\frac{1}{kT} \right)^{3/2}\exp\left[\frac{-E}{kT}\right]\,dE.

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Maxwell's distribution f = e^(-E/kT) where E = (1/2) mv^2 can be looked at in different ways. It is a Chi Square distribution with respect to velocity v, and exponential with respect to kinetic energy E. The _most likely (mode)_ kinetic energy is zero but the _mean_ kinetic energy is not zero

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

If it were the momentum or velocity the mean would be zero, but it wouldn't be exponential. If you just considered the speed (absolute magnitude of velocity) in a particular direction you get an exponential distribution. Is that what the graph represents? Brent On 11/20/2014 5:03 PM, LizR wr

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

The average kinetic energy of an air molecule is zero, I imagine, because they're all travelling in different directions and cancel out? Or doesn't it work like that? On 21 November 2014 13:09, meekerdb wrote: > On 11/20/2014 3:57 PM, George wrote: > > Thanks Bruno, Liz and Richard for your re

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On 11/20/2014 3:57 PM, George wrote: Thanks Bruno, Liz and Richard for your responses. The topic is extremely controversial… It took me a few months of sleepless nights to come to term with these ideas…. but let reason prevail. I am looking forward to an open and rational discussion… a backgr

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Thanks Bruno, Liz and Richard for your responses. The topic is extremely controversial… It took me a few months of sleepless nights to come to term with these ideas…. but let reason prevail. I am looking forward to an open and rational discussion… a background in statistical thermodynamics wou

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

This is very interesting, if I can just get my head round it. "Traditional" thermodynamics basically tells us that a closed system in a macroscopically distinct state (and that is able to do so) will evolve with high probability towards a state that is macroscopically indistinguishable from most of

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

"statistical-mechanical ensembles arise naturally from quantum entanglement" http://people.physics.anu.edu.au/~tas110/Teaching/Lectures/L5/Material/Lloyd06.pdf a lecture given by Seth Lloyd QUANTUM THERMODYNAMICS Excuse our ignorance Classically, the second law of thermodynamics implies that our

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On 20 Nov 2014, at 02:15, George wrote: Hi everyone This post is relevant to a few threads in this list “Reversing time = local reversal of thermodynamic arrows?” and “Two apparently different forms of entropy”. I am sorry that I haven’t posted to this list for a while. I have been very

Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Hi everyone This post is relevant to a few threads in this list “Reversing time = local reversal of thermodynamic arrows?” and “Two apparently different forms of entropy”. I am sorry that I haven’t posted to this list for a while. I have been very busy with my work. In my latest research