Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 05:01:48PM -0700, Chris de Morsella wrote: I don't see what the sense of self has to do with it... Hi Russell ~ In the sense, that by having a sense of self we have inescapably already separated our self from any possibility of seeing from the perspective of a universal point of view... the all that is and can be. Ahh - that's the source of the misunderstanding. A universal point of view (if such a thing can actually exist) is not the same thing at all as a universal machine. A universal machine is defined as a machine capable of emulating any other machine, given an appropriate program. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Deep Blue vs The Tianhe-2 Supercomputer
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: We are now approaching a point where we can have supercomputers with the same estimated computational power of a human brain, but we are very far from replicating its capabilities. Very far? Chess is a very narrow case But being the best Jeopardy player in the world is far less narrow, and in the current issue of New Scientist is a article about an AI program running on a computer MUCH smaller than Tianhe-2 that scored what a typical 4 year old child would on a verbal IQ test. Also, Moore's law is bound to hit a physical limit. It cannot be that far now. Fans of innate human superiority have been singing that same tired old song for 40 years. Currently the smallest features on the very best computer chips on the market are about 22 nanometers and the chips are primarily 2D. There is no physical reason you couldn't make 3D logic elements with features as big as medium sized molecules or about 1 nanometer, so per volume you could pack 22^3 = 10,648 more logic elements than what is currently the most complex and tightly packed object (the surface of a microprocessor) humans have ever made. And because the elements are 22 times closer together they could transfer signals 22 times faster, so per volume you could solve problems 22^4 = 234,256 times faster. And after that is quantum computing. There's more, a lot more. The fastest signals in the human brain move at a couple of hundred meters a second, many are far slower, light moves at 300 million meters per second. So if you insist that the 2 most distant parts of a brain communicate as fast as they do in a human brain (and it is not immediately obvious why you should insist on such a thing) then parts in a AI's brain could be at least one million times as distant. The volume of such a brain would be a million trillion times larger than a human brain. Even if 99.9% of that space were used just to deliver power and get rid of waste heat you'd still have a THOUSAND TRILLION times as much volume for logic components as humans have room for inside their heads, and per volume the components would be solving problems enormously faster than anything we have today. John k Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened, You sir are an ass. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
If I think that: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened, it ended up exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for what they were. The Neo-Con ideology was defeated on the battlegrounds of Iraq. It is sad that it had to happen that way with all the innocent victims in the US and Iraq, but I believe that the US and the rest of the World are today better off with these things having happened. I'm not going to decide not to say this just because someone doesn't like statements to be made about 9/11 that doesn't fit in his ideology, who will selectively quote things out of context, point to that selective quote and call me an ass. Citeren John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com: On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened, You sir are an ass. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: All measurable processes – including information processing -- happen over and require for their operations some physical substrate. My point, which I believe either you may have missed or you are dodging is that therefore a universal computer is impossible, because there would always need to be some underlying and external container for the process that could not therefore itself be completely contained within the process. I'm not at all clear what you're talking about and have little desire for clarification because enough is clear to know that even if you are describing some sort of limitation to computers humans have the exact same limitation. I am not interested in nor do I much care whether humans are superior or inferior to computers That I quite simply do not believe because I do not think anybody would advance or be convinced by such incredibly weak arguments unless they had already decided what they would prefer to be true and only then started to look around for something, anything, to support that view. We are either cuckoo clocks or roulette wheels, take your pick. Not sure whether you are attempting to be funny or are pouring the irony on a little thick. An average human brain has somewhere around 86 billion neurons And today just one INTEL Xeon chip that you could put on your fingernail contains over 5 billion transistors each of which can change it's state several million times faster than any neuron can. Characterizing this fantastically dense crackling network as a cuckoo clock or a roulette wheel is rather facile. There is one thing that brains and cuckoo clocks and roulette wheels and the Tianhe-2 Supercomputer all have in common, things inside them happen for a reason or things inside them do not happen for a reason. If we are machines then we are surely fantastically complex and highly dynamic ones. Yes, and so are computers. I can say with no fear of contradiction that things in the brain happen for a reason or they do not happen for a reason. You have said absolutely nothing that means anything more than reiterating your belief in reductionism. No, what I said was that things happen for a reason or they do not happen for a reason. Are you telling me with a straight face that you disagree with that?! Something either happens or does not happen for a reason… sure.. and so what? What insight have you uncovered by stating the obvious. The insight that we are either cuckoo clocks or roulette wheels, take your pick. I can say that things happen, for a reason or they do not happen for a reason, for any phenomena whatsoever, in the universe, but I have not therefore, by stating the obvious, uncovered any deeper truths or given any insight into any process or underlying physical laws. It is meaningless and it leads nowhere in terms of providing any actual valuable insight or explanation. It speaks but without saying anything. What is your point? The point that free will is a idea so bad it's not even wrong. much of the fine grained details of brain functioning are still not understood and that therefore it is impossible for us to model That doesn't follow. We still don't understand how high temperature superconductors work but that doesn't prevent us from using them in machines. In the same way we wouldn't need to understand why the logic diagram of a brain is the way it is to reverse engineer it and duplicate the same thing in silicon; assuming of course that you wanted to make an AI the same way that Evolution did, but there are almost certainly better ways to do that with astronomically less spaghetti code. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:05 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened You sir are an ass. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
If I think that: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened, it ended up exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for what they were. The Neo-Con ideology was defeated on the battlegrounds of Iraq. It is sad that it had to happen that way with all the innocent victims in the US and Iraq, but I believe that the US and the rest of the World are today better off with these things having happened. I'm not going to decide not to say this just because someone doesn't like statements to be made about 9/11 that doesn't fit in his ideology, who will selectively quote things out of context, point to that selective quote and call me an ass. Citeren John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com: On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:05 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened You sir are an ass. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: Fascism unlike Communism (at the level of lip service at least) never preached a Universal Fascist state – an 1000 year Reich of one tribe over other inferior races maybe, but that idea lacks universal appeal. And lip service (who wouldn't want a workers paradise?) is the only reason that today people would have far more sympathy for Senator McCarthy if he'd gone after Neo-Nazis instead of Communists, and in general lip service is the one and only reason Communism has always seemed more respectable than Nazism even though it has caused at least as much misery in the world. In the 30's Stalin murdered millions of his own people and in the 20's Lenin forced people to abandon their private farms and go to huge corrupt monumentally inefficient collective farms with the result that millions died of starvation; In the 50's Mao did the exact same stupid thing in China in the name of communism and at least 30 million starved to death. In the 70's in Cambodia the communists murdered a greater percentage of their population than any regime in the history of the world. In the 90's in North Korea, a nightmare country as bad as anything George Orwell could dream up, communism caused two million to starve to death while South Korea, a country with the same culture and language but without communism became a world economic powerhouse. And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile and Iran, big deal. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:36 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened You sir are an ass. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
https://sites.google.com/site/faydowkerarchive2003/home/mariarosario The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of the democratically elected regime of Jacobo Arbenz in June 1954. Since that time, while Guatemala has remained securely within the U.S. sphere of influence, badly needed economic and social reforms were put off the agenda indefinitely, political democracy was stifled, and state terror was institutionalized and reached catastrophic levels in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The U.S. establishment overthrew the Arbenz government in 1954 because it ...found the pluralism and democracy of the years 1945-54 intolerable. Since that time ...not only has Guatemala gradually become a terrorist state rarely matched in the scale of systematic murder of civilians, but its terrorist proclivities have increased markedly at strategic moments of escalated U.S. intervention. In 1966, a further small guerrilla movement brought the Green Berets and a major CI [Counter-Insurgency] war in which 10,000 people were killed in pursuit of three or four hundred guerrillas. It was at this point that the 'death squads' and 'disappearances' made their appearance in Guatemala. The United States brought in police training in the 1970s, which was followed by the further institutionalization of violence. The 'solution' to social problems in Guatemala, specifically attributable to the 1954 intervention and the form of U.S. assistance since that time, has been permanent state terror. With Guatemala, the United States invented the 'counterinsurgency state.' During the Reagan years, the number of civilians murdered in Guatemala ran into the tens of thousands, and disappearances and mutilated bodies were a daily occurrence. Studies by Amnesty International (AI), Americas Watch (AW), and other human-rights monitors have documented a military machine run amok, with the indiscriminate killing of peasants (including vast numbers of women and children), the forcible relocation of hundreds of thousands of farmers and villagers into virtual concentration camps, and the enlistment of many hundreds of thousands in compulsory civil patrols. The number of civilians murdered between 1978 and 1985 may have approached 100,000 [one-hundred thousand], with a style of killing reminiscent of Pol Pot. As AI [Amnesty International] pointed out in 1981: The bodies of the victims have been found piled up in ravines, dumped at roadsides or buried in mass graves. Thousands bore the scars of torture, and death had come to most by strangling with a garrotte, by being suffocated in rubber hoods or by being shot in the head. The holocaust years 1978-85 yielded a steady stream of documents by human-rights groups that provided dramatic evidence of a state terrorism in Guatemala approaching genocidal levels. The spectacular AI [Amnesty International] report of 1981 on 'Disappearances: A Workbook,' describ[ed] a frightening development of state terrorism in the Nazi mold.” Human-rights monitoring and protective agencies have had a very difficult time organizing and surviving in the 'death-squad democracies' of El Salvador and Guatemala. Between October 1980 and March 1983, five officials of the Human Rights Commission of El Salvador were seized and murdered by the security forces. Guatemala has been even more inhospitable to human-rights organizations than El Salvador. Guatemalan Archbishop Monsignor Prospero Penados del Barrio asserted in 1984 that 'It is impossible for a human rights office to exist in Guatemala at the present time.' 'Disappearances' as an institutional form began in Guatemala in the mid-1960s and eventually reached levels unique in the Western Hemisphere, with the total estimated to be some 40,000 [forty thousand]. Protest groups that have formed to seek information and legal redress have been consistently driven out of business by state-organized murder. The Association of University Students (AEU) sought information on the disappeared through the courts in the course of a brief opening in 1966 but after one sensational expos\'e of the police murder of twenty eight leftists, the system closed down again. [...] In the 1970s a Committee of the Relatives of the Disappeared was organised by the AEU with headquarters in San Carlos National University. As Americas Watch points out, ``It disbanded after plainclothesmen walked into the University's legal aid center on March 10, 1974 and shot and killed its principal organizer, lawyer Edmundo Guerra Theilheimer, the center's director.'' Another human-rights group, the National Commission for Human Rights, was created in the late 1970s by psychologist and journalist Irma Flaquer. Her son was murdered and she herself ``disappeared'' on October 16, 1980. According to the British Parliamentary Human Rights Group, in 1984 alone there were an average of one hundred
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
A professional ass who goes by the pseudonym smi...@zonnet.nl because he's understandably too embarrassed to give his real name wrote: The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah] Dear Mr. Ass Once somebody knows that you said supporting the Nazis was the right thing for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, why on earth would anybody who was not drooling and locked inside a rubber room be interested in your opinion of the morality of ANYTHING? John K Clark ** -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
Because I at least explain why that's the case. Agree or disagree with me, but it's something that can be debated. You, on the other hand, are an ideologue who is not capable of reading past the first sentence if that looks like contradicting whatever you believe in. Citeren John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com: A professional ass who goes by the pseudonym smi...@zonnet.nl because he's understandably too embarrassed to give his real name wrote: The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah] Dear Mr. Ass Once somebody knows that you said supporting the Nazis was the right thing for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, why on earth would anybody who was not drooling and locked inside a rubber room be interested in your opinion of the morality of ANYTHING? John K Clark ** -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah] Obviously the genocide of the indigenous people in Guatemala in which something like two hundred thousand human beings (ethnic Maya mostly) were tortured, killed and disappeared by a brutal US installed dictator Rios Montt. US financed and backed death squads, controlled and operated many out of the US embassy in Honduras with Ambassador Negroponte (Ambassador death squad) directing operations on the ground - during the mid-eighties and operating fascist paramilitary death squads in El Salvador and Nicaragua as well. Genocide, torture, ethnic cleansing and mass rape are inexcusable crimes of war. It appears as if the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people at the hands of brutal fascist death squads means very little to you. What kind of person does this make you, who have been calling others by the name Ass (and over and over too)? If you do, indeed entertain this don't-give-a-shit attitude about the murder of hundreds of thousands of people in Guatemala, then perhaps the epithet you are so freely tossing around might instead more or less apply to your own person. -Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 10:34 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood A professional ass who goes by the pseudonym smi...@zonnet.nl because he's understandably too embarrassed to give his real name wrote: The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah] Dear Mr. Ass Once somebody knows that you said supporting the Nazis was the right thing for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, why on earth would anybody who was not drooling and locked inside a rubber room be interested in your opinion of the morality of ANYTHING? John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile and Iran, big deal. John you are either grossly ignorant of history, or squeeze it like toothpaste through the aperture of your ideological point of view. The actual historical facts are that both Chilean president Salvador Allende and Iranian president Mohammad Mossadegh were democratically elected and popular leaders of their respective nations. Your choice of words 2 bit leaders actually says a lot about the kind of person you are. a person who is cavalier with the facts and who is prone to distort events to fit the ideological prism you inhabit. I suppose the many thousands of people who were tortured to death and dumped into the Pacific Ocean by Pinochets death squads were just two bit people as well in your esteemed opinion. Does your clearly self-evident and shockingly casual disregard for the truth - when it comes to politics -- extend to everything you do and say or is your willingness to lie and grotesquely mischaracterize history, limited to the political and religious spheres of existence and by some strange mechanism you are able to see things with a clear and open mind in areas of discussion that do not involve your own peculiar political beliefs? -Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 9:53 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: Fascism unlike Communism (at the level of lip service at least) never preached a Universal Fascist state - an 1000 year Reich of one tribe over other inferior races maybe, but that idea lacks universal appeal. And lip service (who wouldn't want a workers paradise?) is the only reason that today people would have far more sympathy for Senator McCarthy if he'd gone after Neo-Nazis instead of Communists, and in general lip service is the one and only reason Communism has always seemed more respectable than Nazism even though it has caused at least as much misery in the world. In the 30's Stalin murdered millions of his own people and in the 20's Lenin forced people to abandon their private farms and go to huge corrupt monumentally inefficient collective farms with the result that millions died of starvation; In the 50's Mao did the exact same stupid thing in China in the name of communism and at least 30 million starved to death. In the 70's in Cambodia the communists murdered a greater percentage of their population than any regime in the history of the world. In the 90's in North Korea, a nightmare country as bad as anything George Orwell could dream up, communism caused two million to starve to death while South Korea, a country with the same culture and language but without communism became a world economic powerhouse. And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile and Iran, big deal. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
Chris and Smitra are performing a collective filtering of history, in which barbarism is merely a feature of capitalism while jolly, socialists, are completely ignored because, if a socialist tortures, or slaugters the innocent, that's different. Because they are ultimately,, 'helping mankind.' Stalin and Pol Pot, and the Kim dynasty of North Korea, and Mao's Great Leap Forward, were all 'undertandable excesses in desparate times' and so forth and so on. This is the kind of thinking that most Leftists capitulated with, when Stalin achieved his Pact of Steel with Herr Hitler from 1939-41. Nobody has a higher body-count of the massacred, then the Left and this is coming from someone who's blood relatives were slain by dear Adolf. In fact, I am betting had not the Furher decided to turn against his chum, Stalin (Dzugadashvilli) the socialists and the national socialists would be fine friends. I would reccomend The Bloodlands, as a history book of both Josep and Adolf, but there'd be no readers here. Ideology rules all I suppose? -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 2:37 pm Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile and Iran, big deal. John you are either grossly ignorant of history, or squeeze it like toothpaste through the aperture of your ideological point of view. The actual historical facts are that both Chilean president Salvador Allende and Iranian president Mohammad Mossadegh were democratically elected and popular leaders of their respective nations. Your choice of words “2 bit leaders” actually says a lot about the kind of person you are… a person who is cavalier with the facts and who is prone to distort events to fit the ideological prism you inhabit. I suppose the many thousands of people who were tortured to death and dumped into the Pacific Ocean by Pinochets death squads were just two bit people as well in your esteemed opinion. Does your clearly self-evident and shockingly casual disregard for the truth – when it comes to politics -- extend to everything you do and say or is your willingness to lie and grotesquely mischaracterize history, limited to the political and religious spheres of existence and by some strange mechanism you are able to see things with a clear and open mind in areas of discussion that do not involve your own peculiar political beliefs? -Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 9:53 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: Fascism unlike Communism (at the level of lip service at least) never preached a Universal Fascist state – an 1000 year Reich of one tribe over other inferior races maybe, but that idea lacks universal appeal. And lip service (who wouldn't want a workers paradise?) is the only reason that today people would have far more sympathy for Senator McCarthy if he'd gone after Neo-Nazis instead of Communists, and in general lip service is the one and only reason Communism has always seemed more respectable than Nazism even though it has caused at least as much misery in the world. In the 30's Stalin murdered millions of his own people and in the 20's Lenin forced people to abandon their private farms and go to huge corrupt monumentally inefficient collective farms with the result that millions died of starvation; In the 50's Mao did the exact same stupid thing in China in the name of communism and at least 30 million starved to death. In the 70's in Cambodia the communists murdered a greater percentage of their population than any regime in the history of the world. In the 90's in North Korea, a nightmare country as bad as anything George Orwell could dream up, communism caused two million to starve to death while South Korea, a country with the same culture and language but without communism became a world economic powerhouse. And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile and Iran, big deal. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
Re: Leibniz's two types of existence based on the two types of logic
Isn't this sort of a neo-Platonism,as expressed by Roger Penrose? -Original Message- From: Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net To: - Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 8:11 am Subject: Leibniz's two types of existence based on the two types of logic Leibniz's two types of existence based on the two types of logic Brahma is a version of existence, but it doesn't permit actual scientific experiments. According to Leibniz, there is necessary (permanent) or mental existence and contingent or actual existence. But mental existence can only be dealt with using mind and logic, so is not actual. And actual existence is tentative. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Leibniz's two types of existence based on the two types of logic
Since we are politically free lancing in the absence of the boss, I must say that sometimes I wish that Roger were no longer existent.` He is the bane of other lists as well- everyone that he is on TMK. He must think he is doing missionary work. Richard On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 3:58 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Isn't this sort of a neo-Platonism,as expressed by Roger Penrose? -Original Message- From: Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net To: - Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 8:11 am Subject: Leibniz's two types of existence based on the two types of logic *Leibniz's two types of existence based on the two types of logic * *Brahma is a version of existence, but it doesn't permit actual scientific experiments. According to Leibniz, there is necessary (permanent) or mental existence and contingent or actual existence. But mental existence can only be dealt with using mind and logic, so is not actual. And actual existence is tentative.* Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
No, I don't think anyone will deny that barbarism has been cmmitted by communist regimes. The point is more that barabarism tends to be the result from policies that are motivated by upholding some ideology at all costs. That can be communism, but also trying to prevent communism from spreading at all costs. The people responsible for acts of bararism are typically considered to be mass murderers, but that's not a good description. From their point of view they were doing their best to help humanity defeat evil, so their mindset is not that of a typical mass murderer. E.g. one the one hand you have the North Korean regime committing brutal acts of violence, but then on the other side you had the US and South Korea doing their best to stop North Korea, and they ended up committing acts of barbarism too: http://rawstory.com/news/2008/AP_U.S._Okayed_Korean_War_Massacres_0705.html SEOUL The American colonel, troubled by what he was hearing, tried to stall at first. But the declassified record shows he finally told his South Korean counterpart it would be permitted to machine-gun 3,500 political prisoners, to keep them from joining approaching enemy forces. In the early days of the Korean War, other American officers observed, photographed and confidentially reported on such wholesale executions by their South Korean ally, a secretive slaughter believed to have killed 100,000 or more leftists and supposed sympathizers, usually without charge or trial, in a few weeks in mid-1950. Extensive archival research by The Associated Press has found no indication Far East commander Gen. Douglas MacArthur took action to stem the summary mass killing, knowledge of which reached top levels of the Pentagon and State Department in Washington, where it was classified secret and filed away. Now, a half-century later, the South Korean government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission is investigating what happened in that summer of terror, a political bloodbath largely hidden from history, unlike the communist invaders' executions of southern rightists, which were widely publicized and denounced at the time. In the now-declassified record at the U.S. National Archives and other repositories, the Korean investigators will find an ambivalent U.S. attitude in 1950 — at times hands-off, at times disapproving. The most important thing is that they did not stop the executions, historian Jung Byung-joon, a member of the 2-year-old commission, said of the Americans. They were at the crime scene, and took pictures and wrote reports. They took pictures in July 1950 at the slaughter of dozens of men at one huge killing field outside the central city of Daejeon. Between 3,000 and 7,000 South Koreans are believed to have been shot there by their own military and police, and dumped into mass graves, said Kim Dong-choon, the commission member overseeing the investigation of these government killings. The bones of Koh Chung-ryol's father are there somewhere, and the 57-year-old woman believes South Koreans alone are not to blame. Although we can't present concrete evidence, we bereaved families believe the United States has some responsibility for this, she told the AP, as she visited one of the burial sites in the quiet Sannae valley. Frank Winslow, a military adviser at Daejeon in those desperate days long ago, is one American who feels otherwise. The Koreans were responsible for their own actions, said the retired Army lieutenant colonel, 81. The Koreans were sovereign. To me, there was never any question that the Koreans were in charge, he said in a telephone interview from his home in Bellingham, Wash. The brutal, hurried elimination of tens of thousands of their countrymen, subject of a May 19 AP report, was the climax to a years-long campaign by South Korea's right-wing leaders. In 1947, two years after Washington and Moscow divided Korea into southern and northern halves, a U.S. military government declared the Korean Labor Party, the southern communists, to be illegal. President Syngman Rhee's southern regime, gaining sovereignty in 1948, suppressed all leftist political activity, put down a guerrilla uprising and held up to 30,000 political prisoners by the time communist North Korea invaded on June 25, 1950. As war broke out, southern authorities also rounded up members of the 300,000-strong National Guidance Alliance, a re-education body to which they had assigned leftist sympathizers, and whose membership quotas also were filled by illiterate peasants lured by promises of jobs and other benefits. Commission investigators, extrapolating from initial evidence and surveys of family survivors, believe most alliance members were killed in the wave of executions. On June 29, 1950, as the southern army and its U.S. advisers retreated southward, reports from Seoul said the conquering northerners had emptied the southern capital's prisons, and
Re: Deep Blue vs The Tianhe-2 Supercomputer
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:11 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: We are now approaching a point where we can have supercomputers with the same estimated computational power of a human brain, but we are very far from replicating its capabilities. Very far? It think so, in terms of generality of ability to learn and adaptability to new situations. Chess is a very narrow case But being the best Jeopardy player in the world is far less narrow, Yes, and Watson is very cool, but still not a human-like mind. and in the current issue of New Scientist is a article about an AI program running on a computer MUCH smaller than Tianhe-2 that scored what a typical 4 year old child would on a verbal IQ test. Doesn't that just involve screaming inane things all the time? :) But seriously, I'll have a look and comment later. Also, Moore's law is bound to hit a physical limit. It cannot be that far now. Fans of innate human superiority have been singing that same tired old song for 40 years. Ok. I'm not a fan of human superiority. My motivation is a desire for the type of AI I dream about. I'm confident it can be achieved, but what we have now doesn't satisfy me. Currently the smallest features on the very best computer chips on the market are about 22 nanometers and the chips are primarily 2D. There is no physical reason you couldn't make 3D logic elements with features as big as medium sized molecules or about 1 nanometer, so per volume you could pack 22^3 = 10,648 more logic elements than what is currently the most complex and tightly packed object (the surface of a microprocessor) humans have ever made. And because the elements are 22 times closer together they could transfer signals 22 times faster, so per volume you could solve problems 22^4 = 234,256 times faster. My understanding is that heat dissipation becomes a problem below 22 nanometers, but I'm not an expert. I assume you're a physicist so sure, you tell me. I did take a course in computer architecture more than a decade ago, and I remember there were two issues with things like smaller scales and more layers: heat dissipation and clock synchronisation. But again, I take no pleasure in the end of Moore's law, quite the contrary and I hope you're right. And after that is quantum computing. Sure. We hope. There's more, a lot more. The fastest signals in the human brain move at a couple of hundred meters a second, many are far slower, light moves at 300 million meters per second. So if you insist that the 2 most distant parts of a brain communicate as fast as they do in a human brain (and it is not immediately obvious why you should insist on such a thing) then parts in a AI's brain could be at least one million times as distant. The volume of such a brain would be a million trillion times larger than a human brain. Even if 99.9% of that space were used just to deliver power and get rid of waste heat you'd still have a THOUSAND TRILLION times as much volume for logic components as humans have room for inside their heads, and per volume the components would be solving problems enormously faster than anything we have today. Yes, this will be great, but we don't know how to program massively parallel asynchronous machines like this. Not saying it can't be done, just that it's a problem we still have to solve. I'm actually quite interested in this problem and have a couple of ideas that involve self-modifying computer code and embedded evolution. But nothing to show for it so far. Telmo. John k Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
Hey spudboy maybe you may want to lay off the crack From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 12:56 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood Chris and Smitra are performing a collective filtering of history, in which barbarism is merely a feature of capitalism while jolly, socialists, are completely ignored because, if a socialist tortures, or slaugters the innocent, that's different. Because they are ultimately,, 'helping mankind.' Stalin and Pol Pot, and the Kim dynasty of North Korea, and Mao's Great Leap Forward, were all 'undertandable excesses in desparate times' and so forth and so on. This is the kind of thinking that most Leftists capitulated with, when Stalin achieved his Pact of Steel with Herr Hitler from 1939-41. Nobody has a higher body-count of the massacred, then the Left and this is coming from someone who's blood relatives were slain by dear Adolf. In fact, I am betting had not the Furher decided to turn against his chum, Stalin (Dzugadashvilli) the socialists and the national socialists would be fine friends. I would reccomend The Bloodlands, as a history book of both Josep and Adolf, but there'd be no readers here. Ideology rules all I suppose? -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 2:37 pm Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile and Iran, big deal. John you are either grossly ignorant of history, or squeeze it like toothpaste through the aperture of your ideological point of view. The actual historical facts are that both Chilean president Salvador Allende and Iranian president Mohammad Mossadegh were democratically elected and popular leaders of their respective nations. Your choice of words 2 bit leaders actually says a lot about the kind of person you are. a person who is cavalier with the facts and who is prone to distort events to fit the ideological prism you inhabit. I suppose the many thousands of people who were tortured to death and dumped into the Pacific Ocean by Pinochets death squads were just two bit people as well in your esteemed opinion. Does your clearly self-evident and shockingly casual disregard for the truth - when it comes to politics -- extend to everything you do and say or is your willingness to lie and grotesquely mischaracterize history, limited to the political and religious spheres of existence and by some strange mechanism you are able to see things with a clear and open mind in areas of discussion that do not involve your own peculiar political beliefs? -Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 9:53 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: Fascism unlike Communism (at the level of lip service at least) never preached a Universal Fascist state - an 1000 year Reich of one tribe over other inferior races maybe, but that idea lacks universal appeal. And lip service (who wouldn't want a workers paradise?) is the only reason that today people would have far more sympathy for Senator McCarthy if he'd gone after Neo-Nazis instead of Communists, and in general lip service is the one and only reason Communism has always seemed more respectable than Nazism even though it has caused at least as much misery in the world. In the 30's Stalin murdered millions of his own people and in the 20's Lenin forced people to abandon their private farms and go to huge corrupt monumentally inefficient collective farms with the result that millions died of starvation; In the 50's Mao did the exact same stupid thing in China in the name of communism and at least 30 million starved to death. In the 70's in Cambodia the communists murdered a greater percentage of their population than any regime in the history of the world. In the 90's in North Korea, a nightmare country as bad as anything George Orwell could dream up, communism caused two million to starve to death while South Korea, a country with the same culture and language but without communism became a world economic powerhouse. And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile and Iran, big deal. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit
Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
On 8/25/2013 9:36 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: If I think that: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened, it ended up exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for what they were. That's sort of like saying it's good that the Nazi's killed all those people in death camps because that exposed what a dangerous philosophy of government Nazism is. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 9:18 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: All measurable processes – including information processing -- happen over and require for their operations some physical substrate. My point, which I believe either you may have missed or you are dodging is that therefore a universal computer is impossible, because there would always need to be some underlying and external container for the process that could not therefore itself be completely contained within the process. I'm not at all clear what you're talking about and have little desire for clarification because enough is clear to know that even if you are describing some sort of limitation to computers humans have the exact same limitation. Yes it is quite clear that you have no idea what I am talking about. On this we very much agree. I am not interested in nor do I much care whether humans are superior or inferior to computers That I quite simply do not believe because I do not think anybody would advance or be convinced by such incredibly weak arguments unless they had already decided what they would prefer to be true and only then started to look around for something, anything, to support that view. Nor, in fact, do I much care whether or not you believe what I state my position is, is my position. If – for whatever reason – your mind requires that you be the agent who assigns my beliefs to me and who determines what my motivations are – that is something that is operating in you… interesting perhaps as a psychological phenomenon, but of no great import to anyone or anything besides your own sense of self certainty. What’s the purpose of having a conversation if when I say quite clearly that and I repeat -- I am not interested in nor do I much care whether humans are superior or inferior to computers – you come back and say I must be lying because you have decided that this is important to me. Who are you to make that kind of decision for my brain… out, out, you… intruder, it’s my mind, and I do not appreciate you defining it for me. Take me at my word when I say I don’t really care one way or the other, that this horse race is uninteresting to me. You mistake my fascination for how the brain works and for how conscious intelligence and self-awareness emerge – in us or in any other entity – for whatever you have inferred and decided it is I must be motivated by. How incredibly pompous of you. Do you go popping into other people’s heads deciding what they believe a lot? It’s a bad habit you know. We are either cuckoo clocks or roulette wheels, take your pick. Not sure whether you are attempting to be funny or are pouring the irony on a little thick. An average human brain has somewhere around 86 billion neurons And today just one INTEL Xeon chip that you could put on your fingernail contains over 5 billion transistors each of which can change it's state several million times faster than any neuron can. Yes… and with that? Does it also sport a 100 trillion connection network on it? Characterizing this fantastically dense crackling network as a cuckoo clock or a roulette wheel is rather facile. There is one thing that brains and cuckoo clocks and roulette wheels and the Tianhe-2 Supercomputer all have in common, things inside them happen for a reason or things inside them do not happen for a reason. A yes back once again to your idée fixe. And how exactly does that help you understand the brain, the CPU or anything at all? This obsession of yours – it seems like one to me, for you keep returning over and over again to re-stating it. You believe things either happen for a reason or they don’t; though you cannot prove it. Obviously it is important for you; though what great insight you derive from this idée fixe of yours quite clearly eludes me. Care to elucidate what is so darn original and profound about the tautology you endlessly come back to? Especially in terms of understanding subtle deep dynamic and vast phenomenon such as conscious intelligence and how it can be recognized and how it arises within an entity? If we are machines then we are surely fantastically complex and highly dynamic ones. Yes, and so are computers. Sure, but, even now still orders of magnitude less so than us. Still have not seen an example of a one hundred trillion connection machine the size of a grapefruit that runs off of 20 watts. Not saying it won’t happen someday, maybe even soon, but the Xeon chip ain’t it. I can say with no fear of contradiction that things in the brain happen for a reason or they do not happen for a reason. You have said absolutely nothing that means anything more than reiterating your belief in reductionism.
RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 05:01:48PM -0700, Chris de Morsella wrote: I don't see what the sense of self has to do with it... Hi Russell ~ In the sense, that by having a sense of self we have inescapably already separated our self from any possibility of seeing from the perspective of a universal point of view... the all that is and can be. Ahh - that's the source of the misunderstanding. A universal point of view (if such a thing can actually exist) is not the same thing at all as a universal machine. A universal machine is defined as a machine capable of emulating any other machine, given an appropriate program. Hehe, my bad. I was throwing around a term that is well understood by many to signify a Universal Turing Machine (or automata/device capable of performing like the theoretical UTM machine) from an entirely different semantic vector... My apologies... and a good example of how important a shared understanding of terms is for good communication. On the single point of view thing... personally I confess I am agnostic on whether or not a single point of view can exist; though I cannot fathom how it could exist and unlike most people I have tried lol though one could argue that this inability of mine is the inevitable result of my being shackled to existing from within a point of view :) The reason for my introducing it into this thread in the first place, was to argue that everything that happens, is happening within some local and limited context... within a frame of reference in which it occurs and with which it interacts. That any system we can define -- except perhaps abstract mathematical/logical conceptual systems such as the infinite set perhaps (but that can only exist because it remains -- by definition -- undefined and around in a circle it goes) -- must in some ways be influenced by actors and events, which are external to it. All systems have externalities. And that because of this influence from outside that characterizes all systems -- except perhaps those in superposition -- as systems become increasingly complex -- by orders of magnitude -- and become comprised of systems of systems linked by extended networks determinism breaks down. At some stochastic point in the degree of complexity and evolution of systems it becomes impossible to work back to some hypothetical original cause based on the measured knowledge of some end outcome. i.e. determinism is in practice impossible. For example would it be possible by measuring precisely the surface of a pond and taking a snap shot of that surface to wind all the surface waves that are dynamically always racing across that pond and bouncing about as they rapidly decay in energy to some distant previous ripple causing event... the pebble that was tossed into the pond a month ago, for example. I would argue that even with a perfect picture of the ponds surface and of each single micrometer of its boundaries... knowing all of its system parameters... that at some point an event can no longer be distinguished from noise, but not for that can it be said to have ultimately had no effect either... in a pseudo-random chaotic system that butterfly wing flapping event can be the cause of the hurricane six months later. But it is also true that it can never be determined to have been the cause either... the signal of that causal butterfly wing flap has long been effectively erased by the vast seething chaos of the countless jiggling atoms in the atmosphere. Basically it boils down to my questioning and doubting the theoretical possibility of determinism. Every non-trivial system -- I would argue -- becomes so inter-connected and loosely coupled that processes that may have perhaps started out in some deterministic manner rapidly begin to become effected by events and inter-actions with other external actors so that a degree of indeterminacy becomes creeps in. This is a real bind that information science is facing. Computer architecture relies on deterministic outcomes -- a logic gate must either be open or it must be closed without ambiguity. But increasingly it is hard to guarantee and at higher levels (clearly much higher than the individual logic gate) systems need to handle indeterminacy to some degree. In fact consensus based algorithms are starting to become more widely adopted -- adopted in an attempt to solve this dilemma by going with a wisdom of the crowds approach and building consensus. The much more interesting things in life are found right on the edge where chaos and order meet. Determinism seeks to impose its need for order on chaos, and is unable to accept that in reality chaos is at least as vital an ingredient in the secret sauce of life and reality as the Order the determinist so deeply loves. Cheers --
RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
corruption in politics (US elections 2000) is good in hind sight because it led to democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq. or one more up Saibal's street: In hind sight the end of the Raj was a bad thing because it led to the partition of India and Pakistan, wars over Kashmir and nuclear friction. There must be loads of counter-intuitive and flame worthy comments that can be rendered using Saibal's hokey logic. We should give some monkeys typewriters and throw a banana to the ape that generates the best one. all the best. Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 15:01:27 -0700 From: meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood On 8/25/2013 9:36 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: If I think that: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened, it ended up exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for what they were. That's sort of like saying it's good that the Nazi's killed all those people in death camps because that exposed what a dangerous philosophy of government Nazism is. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
