date:20150602

Good, let him not accept payments for his lectures. It's an illusion!



-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jun 1, 2015 9:31 pm
Subject: In case anyone's in doubt, Daniel Dennett thinks consciousness is an 
illusion


 
  http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness  
  
   
  
 
  
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Re: Samiya proved right

Well, it halted intellectual progress (and governmental) progress, by 
submitting to god's will and shrugging one's shoulders. Mind you, everyone in 
the past and today does this because we cannot rule reality. The American 
phrase, it is what it is, we can all hear every day. Now why we may ask 
ourselves, did Muslim civilization slide, while Europe, rose and China, after 
sending its ships round the world achieved, and then declined? The best guess 
is that although piety may keep a person humble, it may also make someone, 
incurious. Why ask? It's God's will! What can we do? The Greeks also rose and 
fell. China under the Ming, I believe, turned inward after the Emperors 
command, and nobody could rise out of what their fathers did to earn a living. 
This killed China's rise to power, even after success with technology. 


As far as controlling things here is a short paul davies speculation on the 
universe, reality, mind.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2015/06/todays-galaxy-insight-an-et-technology-beyond-matter.html


 Here is another guy's but be careful, he might be a shia!
http://www.int.washington.edu/users/mjs5/Simulation/Universe/
 




-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jun 1, 2015 10:18 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


 
  
  
   
   
On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com 
wrote:

 
 

   
   

On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

   
   

 Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, 
Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study 
things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by Allah. 
So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. The moon 
is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to know. All is 
in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! 
 
 

   
And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the 
repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence. 
  
   
  
 


Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran, so also 
is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha Allah' [if God 
wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to keep us mindful of 
the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only to the quantum level, 
but cascades on to everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma Sha Allah' reminds 
us that no matter how earnestly we resolve to do something or how hard we 
tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this temporal realm, we can only 
'choose' to try to do or not do something, however whether we are able to do it 
or not, and the outcome of our efforts, is determined and decreed by God. This 
helps to keep us going even when things don't seem to turn out right, as we are 
assured that all efforts are being recorded and will be compensated in the 
Hereafter. I suppose one way to understand it is in terms of a software whose 
designer codes in all outcomes, and the results, though based on user-choices, 
are already coded in by the designer. The designer is always in full control 
and the decision is always as the designer designed it. 

I suppose I should acknowledge here that, I do find, on the personal level, 
God's help and facilitation of matters that seem insurmountable to me, yet 
stating 'In Sha Allah' [if God wills] in earnestness makes the matter easy and 
manageable. Alhamdolillah [All Praise and Thanks to God] 

 


Ma Sha Allah:  http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$yA#(5:48:31)  



In Sha Allah:  http://quran.com/18/23-24  


 


Samiya 

 

 
  
  
Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that 
matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged 
individually. God doesn't need us, we need God.   
  
 

  
   Samiya

 
 
  
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
-Original Message- 
 From: Samiya Illias  samiyaill...@gmail.com 
 To: everything-list  everything-list@googlegroups.com
 
 Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am 
 Subject: Re: Samiya proved right 
  
  
   

 God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there 
will be no injustice done to anybody.

Re: In case anyone's in doubt, Daniel Dennett thinks consciousness is an illusion

2015-06-02 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi

Philosopher Dan Dennett makes a compelling argument that not only don't we 
understand our own consciousness, but that half the time our brains are 
actively fooling us.

I wonder if Dennett has mentioned what percentage of time his brain was 
actively fooling him during his talk.

Am Dienstag, 2. Juni 2015 03:31:30 UTC+2 schrieb Liz R:

 http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness



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Re: In case anyone's in doubt, Daniel Dennett thinks consciousness is an illusion

2015-06-02 Thread Alberto G. Corona

I mean that whoever said the phrase he is a hard dualist because he is
assuming a us that is not determined by the brain, but deceived by it.

 But he assumes consciously a monist materialist standpoint!! What the FUCK
is that?

Dennet, boy, there are excellent introductory courses for classical
philosophy near you. I´m sure that you will find a lot of interesting
things that would help you, particularly some rudiments for rigorous
thinking.

2015-06-02 20:12 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 our brains are actively fooling us.

 Laughing out loudly

 This phrase condensated the swallowness of modern thinking (I would not
 dare to call it philosophy)

 if for the materialist monists, the brain determines the mind, who is the
 us in the phrase? they are assuming that there is another us that is
 being deceived, the true us, not the us moved by the brain, which is
 fooling the true us. Therefore they are not monists, but dualists and
 they are hard dualists.
 So Dennet and the like contradict themselves is so fundamental ways that
 it is not worth to waste the time with such modern garbage.

 if the

 2015-06-02 19:59 GMT+02:00 Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru:

 Philosopher Dan Dennett makes a compelling argument that not only don't
 we understand our own consciousness, but that half the time our brains are
 actively fooling us.

 I wonder if Dennett has mentioned what percentage of time his brain was
 actively fooling him during his talk.


 Am Dienstag, 2. Juni 2015 03:31:30 UTC+2 schrieb Liz R:

 http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness

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Re: In case anyone's in doubt, Daniel Dennett thinks consciousness is an illusion

2015-06-02 Thread John Mikes

So, Bruno, what is that 'illusion-maker'
John M

On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 02 Jun 2015, at 04:43, meekerdb wrote:

  On 6/1/2015 6:31 PM, LizR wrote:

 http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness


 He doesn't actually say that (and he probably didn't write the
 headline).  What he says is that your consciousness produces illusions and
 it's not so transparent as people tend to assume.


 I suspect a wordplay. Consciousness is make sense of all illusion, but the
 raw consciousness is the undoubtable fixed point, which is also non
 communicable, nor definable.

 The fixed point, in the normal state, is rather more transparent than what
 the consciousness might think about anything extending it, that is,
 possible reality.

 I can see consciousness as an illusion maker, not as an illusion itself as
 that would not make sense.

 Consciousness participates in the illusion ... of a primitive physical
 reality, apparently.

 The problem is to explain the persistence of the illusion, and what can we
 expect when and if waking up. Another illusion?
 We can try theories.

 Bruno

 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread John Mikes

Samiya, let me be rude, for an exchange:
do you really think (and believe!) that you are a trustable advocate os
God's will and wisdom?
You never even justified your God's existence and activity (plans?) except
for some threats against not believeing what you said. And I repeat:
WHAT YOU SAID  (mostly hiding behind YOUR words) assigned to God - or the
Script, (which is no better than your word as long as you did not justify
the origin of it).
And many of this think-tank flock of mostly believers goes for it
endlessly.

I believe I have little time left yet cannot force myself NOT to go through
your escapades about YOUR OWN belief system without believable
justification.
Sorry for my outburst
John M

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
wrote:



 On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
 wrote:



 On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah,
 Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study
 things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by
 Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from.
 The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to
 know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know!


 And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to
 the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use
 intelligence.

 Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran, so
 also is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha Allah'
 [if God wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to keep us
 mindful of the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only to the
 quantum level, but cascades on to everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma
 Sha Allah' reminds us that no matter how earnestly we resolve to do
 something or how hard we tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this
 temporal realm, we can only 'choose' to try to do or not do something,
 however whether we are able to do it or not, and the outcome of our
 efforts, is determined and decreed by God. This helps to keep us going even
 when things don't seem to turn out right, as we are assured that all
 efforts are being recorded and will be compensated in the Hereafter. I
 suppose one way to understand it is in terms of a software whose designer
 codes in all outcomes, and the results, though based on user-choices, are
 already coded in by the designer. The designer is always in full control
 and the decision is always as the designer designed it.
 I suppose I should acknowledge here that, I do find, on the personal
 level, God's help and facilitation of matters that seem insurmountable to
 me, yet stating 'In Sha Allah' [if God wills] in earnestness makes the
 matter easy and manageable. Alhamdolillah [All Praise and Thanks to God]

 Ma Sha Allah: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$yA#(5:48:31)
 In Sha Allah: http://quran.com/18/23-24

 Samiya


 Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that
 matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged
 individually. God doesn't need us, we need God.

 Samiya




  -Original Message-
 From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am
 Subject: Re: Samiya proved right

   God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm
 sure there will be no injustice done to anybody.
  The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own
 selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone
 claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One
 who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden
 throughout the heavens and earth.
  Samiya

 On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR  lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

No compulsion when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on
 the basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in
 a non-religious context. But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going
 to murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and
 then I erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his
 fault, and not mine. I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that
 basis.

  If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell
 really do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as
 Pascal pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge
 on which to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he
 fails to avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. Now look what you made
 me do! he says as he tortures you.


  On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias

Re: In case anyone's in doubt, Daniel Dennett thinks consciousness is an illusion

2015-06-02 Thread John Mikes

Brent:
the punctum saliens is the inclusion our in the title.
   As in:our consciousness.
I let my mind wander further and found that whatever we THINK
as OUR consciousness is part of a wider phenomenon and as I
wandered further it left the view of only consious beings,
includable to EVERYTHING (knowable, or not)
as (my) *response to relations*.

Everybody may feel free to identify *a* consciousness according to
her taste and write accordingly. Including me.

I do not claim a Nobel for my ideas, thank you.

John Mikes

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:43 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 On 6/1/2015 6:31 PM, LizR wrote:

 http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness


 He doesn't actually say that (and he probably didn't write the headline).
 What he says is that your consciousness produces illusions and it's not so
 transparent as people tend to assume.

 Brent


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Re: Samiya proved right

Well, I don't guarantee you that it is a simulation, but I will say that its a 
computation, one that may or may not generate the matter we see and feel. 
Energy is movement at some point which makes it energetic. Davies was us a wild 
example of the power of things not yet known or under appreciated. If you can 
manipulate blocks of electrons,you can creatematter that we have never seen 
before. First, whomever does this has overcome electrical resistance tween each 
electron from another, then doing this en masse, means a world that transcends 
Harry Potter or LOTR, because we are dealing then. with a Dungeons and Dragons 
world of wands, and armor, and magic swords that cut through dragon skin. As 
for me, I am a 7th level magic user with an armor class of +6, and the ability 
to frost and fireballs with a hitpoint of 27, in full armor. 



-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 2, 2015 6:23 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


 
  
   
On 3 June 2015 at 07:05, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

   
As far as controlling things here is a short paul davies speculation on the 
universe, reality, mind.  
   


http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2015/06/todays-galaxy-insight-an-et-technology-beyond-matter.html
   
  


 


I'm reliably informed that we can't do anything without matter, so that is 
clearly nonsense. 

   




 Here is another guy's but be careful, he might be a shia!   

http://www.int.washington.edu/users/mjs5/Simulation/Universe/   


   
  


Interesting summary. Did they mention the breakdown of Lorentz invariance? I 
guess the cosmoc ray business would cover that. I would say that there isnt' a 
huge difference between a numerically simulated universe and Max Tegmark's 
mathematical universe hypothesis (except in the simulation we assume an 
underlying computer made of ... well, something that isn't just software. But 
suppose the nesting goes on forever - turtles all the way down, as the writer 
of LOGO might have put it?)
   
  
 
  
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Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 11:51, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Well, I don't guarantee you that it is a simulation, but I will say that
 its a computation, one that may or may not generate the matter we see and
 feel. Energy is movement at some point which makes it energetic. Davies was
 us a wild example of the power of things not yet known or under
 appreciated. If you can manipulate blocks of electrons,you can creatematter
 that we have never seen before. First, whomever does this has overcome
 electrical resistance tween each electron from another, then doing this en
 masse, means a world that transcends Harry Potter or LOTR, because we are
 dealing then. with a Dungeons and Dragons world of wands, and armor, and
 magic swords that cut through dragon skin. As for me, I am a 7th level
 magic user with an armor class of +6, and the ability to frost and
 fireballs with a hitpoint of 27, in full armor.


That would explain a lot. Personally I'm an Elven illusionist (but that is
IRL, rather than in DD)

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

On 3 Jun 2015, at 3:47 am, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:

On 02-Jun-2015, at 10:23 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

On 02 Jun 2015, at 04:18, Samiya Illias wrote:

On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
wrote:

On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah,
Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study
things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by
Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made
from. The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we
need to know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know!
And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to
the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use
intelligence.
Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran, so
also is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha Allah'
[if God wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to keep us
mindful of the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only to the
quantum level, but cascades on to everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma
Sha Allah' reminds us that no matter how earnestly we resolve to do
something or how hard we tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this
temporal realm, we can only 'choose' to try to do or not do something,
however whether we are able to do it or not, and the outcome of our
efforts, is determined and decreed by God.

Imagine you convince everybody of this. Then you will convince also the
percentage of human having sadical pulse (for a reason or another). So there
is a risk that those people believing everything is decreed by God will
interpret their sadical pulse as God anger and willingfulness to punish.

Regarding the terrible trial of the bani Israel (children of Prophet Jacob),
it is mentioned in the Quran:
Holy Quran 7:141
--
وَإِذْ أَنْجَيْنَاكُمْ مِنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَسُومُونَكُمْ سُوءَ الْعَذَابِ ۖ
يُقَتِّلُونَ أَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَاءَكُمْ ۚ وَفِي ذَٰلِكُمْ
بَلَاءٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ عَظِيمٌ

And [recall, O Children of Israel], when We saved you from the people of
Pharaoh, [who were] afflicting you with the worst torment - killing your sons
and keeping your women alive. And in that was a great trial from your Lord.

You decide what you think are good and just acts, and then try to find evidence
that God measures up to your moral standards. But if you were consistent you
would just say that no matter who God causes to suffer through action or
omission, that's fine because he's God

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Re: In case anyone's in doubt, Daniel Dennett thinks consciousness is an illusion

Who is the Master who makes the grass green?

On 3 June 2015 at 08:38, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 So, Bruno, what is that 'illusion-maker'
 John M

 On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 02 Jun 2015, at 04:43, meekerdb wrote:

  On 6/1/2015 6:31 PM, LizR wrote:

 http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness


 He doesn't actually say that (and he probably didn't write the
 headline).  What he says is that your consciousness produces illusions and
 it's not so transparent as people tend to assume.


 I suspect a wordplay. Consciousness is make sense of all illusion, but
 the raw consciousness is the undoubtable fixed point, which is also non
 communicable, nor definable.

 The fixed point, in the normal state, is rather more transparent than
 what the consciousness might think about anything extending it, that is,
 possible reality.

 I can see consciousness as an illusion maker, not as an illusion itself
 as that would not make sense.

 Consciousness participates in the illusion ... of a primitive physical
 reality, apparently.

 The problem is to explain the persistence of the illusion, and what can
 we expect when and if waking up. Another illusion?
 We can try theories.

 Bruno

 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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Re: In case anyone's in doubt, Daniel Dennett thinks consciousness is an illusion



If you ever run into him you will instantly recognise him

Kim

 On 3 Jun 2015, at 7:54 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Who is the Master who makes the grass green?
 
 On 3 June 2015 at 08:38, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
 So, Bruno, what is that 'illusion-maker'
 John M
 
 On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
 
 On 02 Jun 2015, at 04:43, meekerdb wrote:
 
 On 6/1/2015 6:31 PM, LizR wrote:
 http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness
 
 He doesn't actually say that (and he probably didn't write the headline).  
 What he says is that your consciousness produces illusions and it's not so 
 transparent as people tend to assume.
 
 I suspect a wordplay. Consciousness is make sense of all illusion, but the 
 raw consciousness is the undoubtable fixed point, which is also non 
 communicable, nor definable.
 
 The fixed point, in the normal state, is rather more transparent than what 
 the consciousness might think about anything extending it, that is, 
 possible reality.
 
 I can see consciousness as an illusion maker, not as an illusion itself as 
 that would not make sense.
 
 Consciousness participates in the illusion ... of a primitive physical 
 reality, apparently.
 
 The problem is to explain the persistence of the illusion, and what can we 
 expect when and if waking up. Another illusion?
 We can try theories.
 
 Bruno
 
 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
 
 
 
 
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Re: In case anyone's in doubt, Daniel Dennett thinks consciousness is an illusion

If I ever get away from him (or her) I will be dead. Or unconscious, at
least.

On 3 June 2015 at 10:11, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote:



 If you ever run into him you will instantly recognise him

 Kim

 On 3 Jun 2015, at 7:54 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Who is the Master who makes the grass green?

 On 3 June 2015 at 08:38, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 So, Bruno, what is that 'illusion-maker'
 John M

 On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 02 Jun 2015, at 04:43, meekerdb wrote:

  On 6/1/2015 6:31 PM, LizR wrote:

 http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness


 He doesn't actually say that (and he probably didn't write the
 headline).  What he says is that your consciousness produces illusions and
 it's not so transparent as people tend to assume.


 I suspect a wordplay. Consciousness is make sense of all illusion, but
 the raw consciousness is the undoubtable fixed point, which is also non
 communicable, nor definable.

 The fixed point, in the normal state, is rather more transparent than
 what the consciousness might think about anything extending it, that is,
 possible reality.

 I can see consciousness as an illusion maker, not as an illusion itself
 as that would not make sense.

 Consciousness participates in the illusion ... of a primitive physical
 reality, apparently.

 The problem is to explain the persistence of the illusion, and what can
 we expect when and if waking up. Another illusion?
 We can try theories.

 Bruno

 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level

On 3 June 2015 at 05:47, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 5:46 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

  A Turing Machine is actually an *algorithm*


 Yes, a algorithm that is a set of instructions that explains how to
 organize matter that obeys the laws of physics in such a way that it can
 make any finite calculation.


  It doesn't explain how to organise matter - which is obvious from the
 fact that all sorts of systems can be Turing-universal,


 There are many ways to make a computer and Turing's 1936 paper said
 nothing about the practicalities and engineering details, but he did prove
 that the logical schematic of any computer can be reduced to something that
 we now call a Turing Machine; but you can't make a calculation with just a
 schematic, you need matter that obeys the laws of physics too.


But not any specific arrangement. Hence it is contingent.

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Re: Samiya proved right



 On 2 Jun 2015, at 12:18 pm, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma Sha Allah' reminds us that no matter how 
 earnestly we resolve to do something or how hard we tried, the decision is 
 always with Allah. In this temporal realm, we can only 'choose' to try to do 
 or not do something, however whether we are able to do it or not, and the 
 outcome of our efforts, is determined and decreed by God.


So this must be what those Afghani tribesmen were muttering to each other about 
as they took turns at humping a goat in the desert in that clip I saw on You 
Tube the other day

Kim

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 05:23, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 If not you will get a God capable of making 2 odd, and that's too odd!

 That's rather good. It made me laugh!

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 07:05, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 As far as controlling things here is a short paul davies speculation on
 the universe, reality, mind.

 http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2015/06/todays-galaxy-insight-an-et-technology-beyond-matter.html


I'm reliably informed that we can't do anything without matter, so that is
clearly nonsense.


   Here is another guy's but be careful, he might be a shia!
 http://www.int.washington.edu/users/mjs5/Simulation/Universe/

 Interesting summary. Did they mention the breakdown of Lorentz invariance?
I guess the cosmoc ray business would cover that. I would say that there
isnt' a huge difference between a numerically simulated universe and Max
Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis (except in the simulation we
assume an underlying computer made of ... well, something that isn't just
software. But suppose the nesting goes on forever - turtles all the way
down, as the writer of LOGO might have put it?)

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Re: Samiya proved right




 On 3 Jun 2015, at 1:44 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
 
 On 6/2/2015 8:35 PM, Samiya Illias wrote:
 Let's try a different approach. Do you really think that everything just 
 happened on its own and there is no creator behind it? If you do believe 
 that there must be a creator, then try praying to your creator and implore 
 faith and guidance. 
 
 There are a lot of other possibilities besides just happened and a creator 
 to whom it would make sense to pray.
 
 Brent

In what sense does it ever make sense to pray to anything? The trouble with 
this thing called praying is that it is only ever done by those who have a 
penchant for the supernatural and probably love to imagine that someone is 
actually listening to their prayer. In this way, such an individual will tend 
to believe whatever appears to be the first kind of valid response from God. 
It's not like you enter into an argument or anything with God. If God tells you 
after listening to your prayers that it is OK to hump a goat, then you will 
tend to feel OK about it when doing it. Real thinking involves the ability to 
dispute your perceptions and beliefs and to be able to withhold judgement. It's 
interesting to note that God never argues with Man about what he wants either, 
but merely assists Man in all ways. Paul Davies could therefore be right: an 
unknown entity capable of energy manipulation might be authoring the whole 
charade. How the fuck would anyone know? To us, such an impious demonic entity 
(if that's what they are) would be deemed to be God. 

God has this tendency, as someone once observed, to align his/her/its wishes 
for usexactly on the same tram-lines of our already preset desires. God only 
ever wants for Man what Man already wants for himself anyway, so God is then a 
patsy for the Mafia or the Vatican or the Taliban or whoever has the guns to 
insist on getting their own way.

If God exists, I want this being to know that I will never pray to them, 
however powerful. This is because I could be mad or at the very least 
schizophrenic and possibly even homicidal and I probably don't need any further 
high-level authorization to go out and garrott somebody. As Bruno mentioned, 
this is what Ghengis-Kahn didn't do.

Kim

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 15:44, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 6/2/2015 8:35 PM, Samiya Illias wrote:

 Let's try a different approach. Do you really think that everything just
 happened on its own and there is no creator behind it? If you do believe
 that there must be a creator, then try praying to your creator and implore
 faith and guidance.

 There are a lot of other possibilities besides just happened and a
 creator to whom it would make sense to pray.


Indeed. And if there is a creator, that just leaves the origin question
open - where did the creator come from?

To the best of my knowledge this question isn't tackled in the Bible,
Quran, etc. But you'd think that God would know his own origins, and if
he's keen for us to believe in him, he'd tell us what they are, so that
once wev'e advanced enough in scientific knowledge we'd be able to verify
what the holy writ told us (Samiya has suggested that this is the case for
some bits of physics and biology - but I don't know of any holy text that
tells us that God evolved through natural selection before he created our
universe, I'd feel more inclined to believe it if it did).

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread meekerdb


On 6/2/2015 9:11 PM, Kim Jones wrote:
God has this tendency, as someone once observed, to align his/her/its wishes for 
usexactly on the same tram-lines of our already preset desires. God only ever wants for 
Man what Man already wants for himself anyway, so God is then a patsy for the Mafia or 
the Vatican or the Taliban or whoever has the guns to insist on getting their own way.


You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God 
hates all the same people you do.

 - Anne Lamott

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Re: Samiya proved right

Any-vay, Dawkins, himself, conjectured that there could be god-like 
intelligences in the universe. This is a thought that is quite spooky enough, 
for my primate brain. I wonder, what would you define as a qualification for 
being a god-like intelligence? Aside from being well-versed in MS Excel 
spreadsheets, and being an Oracle developer?  

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 2, 2015 07:57 PM
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right



div id=AOLMsgPart_2_0c474392-1f9d-40f2-be78-9ab66623e6a8

 div dir=ltr
  div class=aolmail_gmail_extra
   div class=aolmail_gmail_quote
On 3 June 2015 at 11:51, spudboy100 via Everything List 
span dir=ltra target=_blank 
href=mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com;everything-list@googlegroups.com/a/span
 wrote:


blockquote class=aolmail_gmail_quote style=margin:0 0 0 
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex
 font color=black size=2 face=arialWell, I don't guarantee you that 
it is a simulation, but I will say that its a computation, one that may or may 
not generate the matter we see and feel. Energy is movement at some point which 
makes it energetic. Davies was us a wild example of the power of things not yet 
known or under appreciated. If you can manipulate blocks of electrons,you can 
creatematter that we have never seen before. First, whomever does this has 
overcome electrical resistance tween each electron from another, then doing 
this en masse, means a world that transcends Harry Potter or LOTR, because we 
are dealing then. with a Dungeons and Dragons world of wands, and armor, and 
magic swords that cut through dragon skin. As for me, I am a 7th level magic 
user with an armor class of +6, and the ability to frost and fireballs with a 
hitpoint of 27, in full armor. 
/font
/blockquote


 




That would explain a lot. Personally I'm an Elven illusionist (but that is IRL, 
rather than in DD)

   /div
  /div
 /div 
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Re: Why would God make this? (part 3)

On 3 June 2015 at 14:58, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:


 A common hallucination reported by dmt users are praying manti.

 Really?

Curiouser and curiouser.

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread Samiya Illias

That's okay John, I understand! No single one of us really knows how much
time we have left -- nobody is promised a long life, but death is a
certainty we are bound to meet sooner or later.
I share the verses of the Quran as I believe it to be divine guidance. Why
my heart believes in the existence of God or why my heart is convinced that
the Quran is from God, I suppose I can not really translate in words just
the same as you cannot express in words why your heart refuses to believe.
I find the Quran to be a luminous book full of knowledge and wisdom beyond
what any human can author -- you consider it a human work. I try to share
verses which mention nature to help realise that a human could not have
authored such knowledge. I really don't know what would comprise evidence
for you.
Let's try a different approach. Do you really think that everything just
happened on its own and there is no creator behind it? If you do believe
that there must be a creator, then try praying to your creator and implore
faith and guidance.
If you have any specific questions, I'll try answering them, and I pray
that God helps you find faith. Amen.

Samiya

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 1:28 AM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Samiya, let me be rude, for an exchange:
 do you really think (and believe!) that you are a trustable advocate os
 God's will and wisdom?
 You never even justified your God's existence and activity (plans?) except
 for some threats against not believeing what you said. And I repeat:
 WHAT YOU SAID  (mostly hiding behind YOUR words) assigned to God - or the
 Script, (which is no better than your word as long as you did not justify
 the origin of it).
 And many of this think-tank flock of mostly believers goes for it
 endlessly.

 I believe I have little time left yet cannot force myself NOT to go
 through your escapades about YOUR OWN belief system without believable
 justification.
 Sorry for my outburst
 John M

 On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
 wrote:



 On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
 wrote:



 On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah,
 Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study
 things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by
 Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from.
 The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to
 know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know!


 And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to
 the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use
 intelligence.

 Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran,
 so also is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha
 Allah' [if God wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to
 keep us mindful of the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only
 to the quantum level, but cascades on to everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah'
 and 'Ma Sha Allah' reminds us that no matter how earnestly we resolve to do
 something or how hard we tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this
 temporal realm, we can only 'choose' to try to do or not do something,
 however whether we are able to do it or not, and the outcome of our
 efforts, is determined and decreed by God. This helps to keep us going even
 when things don't seem to turn out right, as we are assured that all
 efforts are being recorded and will be compensated in the Hereafter. I
 suppose one way to understand it is in terms of a software whose designer
 codes in all outcomes, and the results, though based on user-choices, are
 already coded in by the designer. The designer is always in full control
 and the decision is always as the designer designed it.
 I suppose I should acknowledge here that, I do find, on the personal
 level, God's help and facilitation of matters that seem insurmountable to
 me, yet stating 'In Sha Allah' [if God wills] in earnestness makes the
 matter easy and manageable. Alhamdolillah [All Praise and Thanks to God]

 Ma Sha Allah: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$yA#(5:48:31)

 In Sha Allah: http://quran.com/18/23-24

 Samiya


 Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that
 matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged
 individually. God doesn't need us, we need God.

 Samiya




  -Original Message-
 From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am
 Subject: Re: Samiya proved right

   God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm
 sure there will be no injustice done to anybody.
  The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own
 selves:

Re: Why would God make this? (part 3)

A common hallucination reported by dmt users are praying manti. 

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 2, 2015 09:57 PM
Subject: Why would God make this? (part 3)

div id=AOLMsgPart_2_ac6a9cd4-355f-44fa-8e0c-53d1b0d58c48

 div dir=ltr
  div
...clearly, because (s)he has a sense of humour.

  a target=_blank 
href=http://happyplace.someecards.com/why-god/why-would-god-make-this-week-3-the-praying-mantis/;http://happyplace.someecards.com/why-god/why-would-god-make-this-week-3-the-praying-mantis//a

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 14:56, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 So if contact is made to the godlikes, assuming that he, she, it, they,
 should they be worshipped? No? What if these imaginary guys did something
 really nice for us?

 I think we should react to them as seems appropriate under the
circumstances (like most things, really).

PS See early Star Trek for more details on how to react to godlike beings.

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 13:28, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Any-vay, Dawkins, himself, conjectured that there could be god-like
 intelligences in the universe. This is a thought that is quite spooky
 enough, for my primate brain. I wonder, what would you define as a
 qualification for being a god-like intelligence? Aside from being
 well-versed in MS Excel spreadsheets, and being an Oracle developer?

 Being a Dungeon Master (or Mistress).

Or a setter of cryptic crosswords http://channelcrossword.wordpress.com
:-)

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Why would God make this? (part 3)

...clearly, because (s)he has a sense of humour.

http://happyplace.someecards.com/why-god/why-would-god-make-this-week-3-the-praying-mantis/

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Re: Samiya proved right

So if contact is made to the godlikes, assuming that he, she, it, they, should 
they be worshipped? No? What if these imaginary guys did something really nice 
for us?  

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jun 2, 2015 09:32 PM
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right

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On 3 June 2015 at 13:28, spudboy100 via Everything List 
span dir=ltra target=_blank 
href=mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com;everything-list@googlegroups.com/a/span
 wrote:

blockquote class=aolmail_gmail_quote style=margin:0 0 0 
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex
Any-vay, Dawkins, himself, conjectured that there could be god-like 
intelligences in the universe. This is a thought that is quite spooky enough, 
for my primate brain. I wonder, what would you define as a qualification for 
being a god-like intelligence? Aside from being well-versed in MS Excel 
spreadsheets, and being an Oracle developer?  
 span

/span
/blockquote

Being a Dungeon Master (or Mistress).

Or a 
 a target=_blank href=http://channelcrossword.wordpress.com;setter of 
cryptic crosswords/a :-) 

   /div
  /div
 /div 
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread meekerdb


On 6/2/2015 8:35 PM, Samiya Illias wrote:
Let's try a different approach. Do you really think that everything just happened on its 
own and there is no creator behind it? If you do believe that there must be a creator, 
then try praying to your creator and implore faith and guidance. 


There are a lot of other possibilities besides just happened and a creator to whom it 
would make sense to pray.


Brent

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Re: Samiya proved right