Re: soul swap

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/4/2020 9:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 31 Jul 2020, at 16:32, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
> wrote:




On 7/31/2020 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


Equality means, at least in my mind in this discussion, equality of 
right. It is the idea that everyone obeys to the law, especially at 
the top who has to give the example. It means same amount of money 
for the same amount of work, independently of the genre, colour 
skin, etc.


It does not mean “freedom of religion” which is an apparently nice 
idea, but in practice it is the legalisation of moral harassment, 
the legalisation of lies, etc. In fact, freedom of religion is 
almost the same as the interdiction to use reason in theology, and 
is the main trick of most tyrants and pressure groups.


Equality of right is what should normally prevent the “extremely 
equal” setting, when we are asked to forget how different we really are.


As I would expect of a logician, you avoid the operational meanings.


I am not sure. Same salary, same laws, same treatment, same obligation 
(modulo the biological differences of course), all this seems rather 
operational to me. You forget that my expertise in logic is in 
computer science, where operational semantics abound.






A right, must be something one has the power to do or refrain from 
doing, and society defends this choice.


OK.




  So it is quite different from "everyone obeys the same law" and 
"gets the same pay for the same amount of work”.


Honestly, you loss me. In a democratic society, we vote for laws as a 
mean to protect our right and agreed on obligation.






In many cases it is a freedom from laws.


What?

The laws, made by people representing the collectivity, in a normal 
healthy state (no leaks in the separated powers) provides the freedom 
from the laws of the sternest and more violent.


You must not be familiar with laws in theocratic states, especially some 
Islamic states.  The majority in a society does not necessarily tolerate 
any deviation from what it considers a "health state". Almost all states 
in the U.S. used to have laws against homosexual relations...and even 
against a lot of heterosexual acts.  Most in the south had laws against 
miscegenation.  And these were democratically supported by wide majorities.





  I think that was the great advance of the Enlightenment, the 
rejection of the medieval, theocratic idea that there was a only one 
(holy) way to do everything and the idea of sin extended into every 
facet of life, even into thought.


It is the understanding of science, or of what science is.

But unfortunately the “theocratic” stupidity, that you allude to, is 
still tolerated in theology, which in that case makes suspect that 
people have not yet really understood what science is, probably to be 
able to keep the illusion of protect themselves through lies or fake 
knowledge.


The Ayatollah, the popes, the bishops, the priest, the Brothers, and 
the literary philosophers can thank the gnostic atheists to defend 
their job and curriculum.


The motto is “you will not apply reason in the field made of what we 
cannot talk about”.


And that seems reasonable, but it all depends of what is the theory 
that you postulate. Wit mechanism, science can study its limitation, 
and can observe structure  beyond its means of justification, like the 
degrees of unsolvability. With Mechanism, mathematical logic and 
mathematics becomes the Hubble telescope of elementary classical 
mathematical theology.


The enlightenment in a open and positive interpretation of what you 
said, has given the democracy and the US constitution, and that is a 
real progress in the human right. But old and young democracies are 
fragile, and the human sciences are nowhere, which is reassuring after 
the Shoa and Rwanda. You need to be cynical to say that the human 
science are OK after that.


I could argue that democracy is what nature does all the time, as she 
selects also what remains from infinite oscillation between security 
and liberty. Liberty is Turing universalness, security is total-ness, 
automaton. It is a bit going from []p to ([]p & p), back and forth, in 
between reason and intuition.


When theology will come back to the faculty of science, the literal 
reading of the sacred texts will be relegated in between the 
horoscopes and the necrology in the Sunday magazine, and, _and that is 
the main point_, it will become useless as demagogical tools by Tyrans 
to keep “theocratic” power.


A popular mechanist slogan (years 2201): “you can rape and torture all 
man, woman, kids and animals on this planet and still have a chance 
non null to go to heaven, but if you tear just one cilia out of a 
paramecium invoking its name when justifying your act, you go to hell 
immediately.




The Enlightenment and the U.S. Constitution built in the concept of a 
private realm and a limited public/government realm.


I applaud this.

Re: GR space-time motion in the absence of gravity

[Alan Grayson]

Maybe this will clear things up. EE has 10 independent equations, so one 
needs 10 initial conditions to define the path of a test particle in 
spacetime. What are they, and what would distinguish a geodesic from a 
non-geodesic solution? TIA, AG

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 12:29:26 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
>
> You can choose coordinates so that a particular geodesic is a coordinate 
> axis. 
>
> Brent 
>
> On 8/4/2020 3:24 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote: 
> > What bothers me about this is that the spatial coordinates generally 
> > depend on each other, and time. In this situation will the geodesic 
> > equations yield a solution where the spatial coordinates remain fixed? 
> AG 
>
>

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Re: GR space-time motion in the absence of gravity

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

You can choose coordinates so that a particular geodesic is a coordinate 
axis.


Brent

On 8/4/2020 3:24 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
What bothers me about this is that the spatial coordinates generally 
depend on each other, and time. In this situation will the geodesic 
equations yield a solution where the spatial coordinates remain fixed? AG 


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Re: soul swap

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 31 Jul 2020, at 16:32, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/31/2020 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>> Equality means, at least in my mind in this discussion, equality of right. 
>> It is the idea that everyone obeys to the law, especially at the top who has 
>> to give the example. It means same amount of money for the same amount of 
>> work, independently of the genre, colour skin, etc.
>> 
>> It does not mean “freedom of religion” which is an apparently nice idea, but 
>> in practice it is the legalisation of moral harassment, the legalisation of 
>> lies, etc. In fact, freedom of religion is almost the same as the 
>> interdiction to use reason in theology, and is the main trick of most 
>> tyrants and pressure groups.
>> 
>> Equality of right is what should normally prevent the “extremely equal” 
>> setting, when we are asked to forget how different we really are.
> 
> As I would expect of a logician, you avoid the operational meanings. 

I am not sure. Same salary, same laws, same treatment, same obligation (modulo 
the biological differences of course), all this seems rather operational to me. 
You forget that my expertise in logic is in computer science, where operational 
semantics abound.





> A right, must be something one has the power to do or refrain from doing, and 
> society defends this choice.

OK.




>   So it is quite different from "everyone obeys the same law" and "gets the 
> same pay for the same amount of work”. 

Honestly, you loss me. In a democratic society, we vote for laws as a mean to 
protect our right and agreed on obligation. 




> In many cases it is a freedom from laws.

What?

The laws, made by people representing the collectivity, in a normal healthy 
state (no leaks in the separated powers) provides the freedom from the laws of 
the sternest and more violent.




>   I think that was the great advance of the Enlightenment, the rejection of 
> the medieval, theocratic idea that there was a only one (holy) way to do 
> everything and the idea of sin extended into every facet of life, even into 
> thought. 

It is the understanding of science, or of what science is.

But unfortunately the “theocratic” stupidity, that you allude to, is still 
tolerated in theology, which in that case makes suspect that people have not 
yet really understood what science is, probably to be able to keep the illusion 
of protect themselves through lies or fake knowledge.

The Ayatollah, the popes, the bishops, the priest, the Brothers, and the 
literary philosophers can thank the gnostic atheists to defend their job and 
curriculum.

The motto is “you will not apply reason in the field made of what we cannot 
talk about”.

And that seems reasonable, but it all depends of what is the theory that you 
postulate. Wit mechanism, science can study its limitation, and can observe 
structure  beyond its means of justification, like the degrees of 
unsolvability. With Mechanism, mathematical logic and mathematics becomes the 
Hubble telescope of elementary classical mathematical theology. 

The enlightenment in a open and positive interpretation of what you said, has 
given the democracy and the US constitution, and that is a real progress in the 
human right. But old and young democracies are fragile, and the human sciences 
are nowhere, which is reassuring after the Shoa and Rwanda. You need to be 
cynical to say that the human science are OK after that.

I could argue that democracy is what nature does all the time, as she selects 
also what remains from infinite oscillation between security and liberty. 
Liberty is Turing universalness, security is total-ness, automaton. It is a bit 
going from []p to ([]p & p), back and forth, in between reason and intuition.

When theology will come back to the faculty of science, the literal reading of 
the sacred texts will be relegated in between the horoscopes and the necrology 
in the Sunday magazine, and, and that is the main point, it will become useless 
as demagogical tools by Tyrans to keep “theocratic” power. 

A popular mechanist slogan (years 2201): “you can rape and torture all man, 
woman, kids and animals on this planet and still have a chance non null to go 
to heaven, but if you tear just one cilia out of a paramecium invoking its name 
when justifying your act, you go to hell immediately.



> The Enlightenment and the U.S. Constitution built in the concept of a private 
> realm and a limited public/government realm.

I applaud this. 

Trump is not a proof that there is a defect in the U.S. Constitution. Trump is 
a proof that there is a problem in Education.

To vote for a president who does not show its tax returns is like to take a 
plane without checking the fuel.

In a democracy, it should be understood that the more you are at the top, the 
more your apparent behaviour has to be morally impeccable. I don’t care much on 
the private life of a president, as long as he does not lie in public.

I am 

Re: GR space-time motion in the absence of gravity

[Lawrence Crowell]

The motion is determined by initial conditions. It is not something 
determined by some other physics. 

LC

On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 2:18:07 PM UTC-5 agrays...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>
> On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 12:15:23 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 8:55:17 AM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 5:00:22 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:



 On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 1:55:15 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> I looked at the precession question, wrote it in WORD and then posted 
> it in the wrong thread. A big line of anti-virus defense is working 
> off-line. I do a lot of work locally and pop on and off the internet. I 
> try 
> to never leave my machines on-line with an open port for anyone or any 
> bot 
> to enter to cause mischief.
>
> With this the question is odd. How something moves in free and flat 
> space and spacetime is just determined by its initial conditions.
>
> LC
>

 If one starts with SR and zero curvature of spacetime, and places a 
 test particle in that spacetime spatially at rest, how will spacetime tell 
 matter how to move if spacetime isn't curved? AG 

>>>
>>> I think in this situation the direction of motion is ambiguous. AG 
>>>
>>
>> No. It doesn't spatially move, but it moves in space-time since the 
>> observer's clock continues to advance. AG 
>>
>
> What bothers me about this is that the spatial coordinates generally 
> depend on each other, and time. In this situation will the geodesic 
> equations yield a solution where the spatial coordinates remain fixed? AG 
>
>>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 9:05:57 AM UTC-5 agrays...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 5:30:36 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>>
>>> The periapsis or perihelion advance of Mercury is largely a result 
>>> of classical perturbation theory in classical mechanics. About 10% of 
>>> the 
>>> perihelion advance could not be accounted for by perturbation methods 
>>> in 
>>> classical mechanics. 
>>>
>>> This has to be admired in some ways. Finding the ephemeris of 
>>> Mercury is tough, for the planet makes brief appearances near the sun 
>>> in 
>>> mornings and evenings. Finding an orbital path from its course across 
>>> the 
>>> sky is not easy. The second issue is that perturbation methods in 
>>> classical 
>>> mechanics are difficult. These were developed arduously in the 19th 
>>> century 
>>> and Le Verrier worked on this to find the planet Neptune from the 
>>> perturbed 
>>> motion of Uranus in 1848. These methods were worked on through the 19th 
>>> century. The later work of von Zeipel and Poincare were used to compute 
>>> the 
>>> periapsis advance of Mercury, but there was this persistent 
>>> 43arc-sec/year 
>>> that resisted these efforts.
>>>
>>> It was general relativity that predicted this anomaly in ways that 
>>> are far simpler than the classical perturbation methods. This 
>>> post-diction 
>>> of GR was an initial success in the theory, followed up shortly by the 
>>> Eddington expedition that found the optical effects of GR in a solar 
>>> eclipse in 1919.
>>>
>>> LC
>>>
>>
>> I appreciate your grasp of the history, but you haven't answered my 
>> question and don't seem aware of what it is (plus you posted your reply 
>> on 
>> the wrong thread). AG 
>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 3:49:28 AM UTC-5 agrays...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>


 On Saturday, August 1, 2020 at 10:35:09 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson 
 wrote:
>
> In flat space, which is tantamount to assuming the absence of 
> gravity, and non-zero curvature, a body placed at spatial coordinates 
> x,y,z, will move because t increments. But if there is zero 
> curvature, in 
> which direction will it move? That is, how is the direction of motion 
> determined? TIA, AG
>

 CORRECTION; above, I meant to write, " ... which is tantamount to 
 assuming the absence of gravity and ZERO curvature, ... "   AG

>>>

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Re: Advancement of Mercury's perihelion

[Lawrence Crowell]

It is the case that planetary orbits change in time. I think the Earth is 
being nudged outward by Jupiter over time. This might give added time for 
life to continue as the sun heats up over the next billion years and more. 

LC

On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 6:39:50 PM UTC-5 smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:

> On 03-08-2020 00:35, Alan Grayson wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 1:51:34 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
> > 
> >> The periapsis or perihelion advance of Mercury is largely a result
> >> of classical perturbation theory in classical mechanics. About 10%
> >> of the perihelion advance could not be accounted for by perturbation
> >> methods in classical mechanics.
> >> 
> >> This has to be admired in some ways. Finding the ephemeris of
> >> Mercury is tough, for the planet makes brief appearances near the
> >> sun in mornings and evenings. Finding an orbital path from its
> >> course across the sky is not easy. The second issue is that
> >> perturbation methods in classical mechanics are difficult. These
> >> were developed arduously in the 19th century and Le Verrier worked
> >> on this to find the planet Neptune from the perturbed motion of
> >> Uranus in 1848. These methods were worked on through the 19th
> >> century. The later work of von Zeipel and Poincare were used to
> >> compute the periapsis advance of Mercury, but there was this
> >> persistent 43arc-sec/year that resisted these effort.
> > 
> > You mean 43 arc-sec/CENTURY. My question is this; why don't the
> > perturbations due to other bodies in our solar system ALSO cause
> > radial increases in Mercury's orbital energy, to produce an outward
> > expansion of its orbit, rather than just rotations of the ellipse
> > characterizing its orbit?
> > TIA, AG
> > 
> There are oscillations in the orbital parameters and if resonances occur 
> this can lead to instabilities. Mercury is close to getting onto a 
> resonance with Jupiter and due to the chaotic nature of the orbital 
> motion of the planets, this means that there is a chance that the inner 
> solar system can get destabilized:
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature08096
>
> "Here we report numerical simulations of the evolution of the Solar 
> System over 5 Gyr, including contributions from the Moon and general 
> relativity. In a set of 2,501 orbits with initial conditions that are in 
> agreement with our present knowledge of the parameters of the Solar 
> System, we found, as in previous studies, that one per cent of the 
> solutions lead to a large increase in Mercury’s eccentricity—an increase 
> large enough to allow collisions with Venus or the Sun. More 
> surprisingly, in one of these high-eccentricity solutions, a subsequent 
> decrease in Mercury’s eccentricity induces a transfer of angular 
> momentum from the giant planets that destabilizes all the terrestrial 
> planets ∼3.34 Gyr from now, with possible collisions of Mercury, Mars or 
> Venus with the Earth."
>
>
> "The most surprising collision is the one of Venus with the Earth,
> which occurs in S468 in a five-stage process (Figs 2 and 3). The first
> step is the increase in the eccentricity of Mercury, obtained through
> perihelion resonance with Jupiter at 3.137 Gyr. This step is essential, 
> as it allows a transfer of non-circular angular momentum from the outer 
> planets to the terrestrial planets. The eccentricity increase
> of Venus, the Earth and Mars, is then obtained through secular 
> resonances among the inner planets while the eccentricity of Mercury 
> decreases between 3.305 and 3.325 Gyr. Once Mars and the Earth
> acquire large eccentricities, close encounters occur and collisions
> become possible, as in S468 (Fig. 3c). In S468, the collision with
> Mars does not occur, but several close encounters (Fig. 3c) lead to the 
> diffusion of Mars’s semi-major axis (Fig. 3b) until secular resonances 
> produce a decrease in the eccentricity of Mercury together with an
> additional increase in the eccentricity of Venus and the Earth at about
> 3.347.3 Gyr (Fig. 3c). At this point, close encounters between Venus
> and the Earth occur, with several exchanges of the planets’ orbits
> (Fig. 3b) before a final collision at 3.352891 Gyr (Fig. 3c)."
>
> Saibal
>
>
>

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Re: Trump suggests delaying the election

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 2 Aug 2020, at 05:27, Russell Standish  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Aug 02, 2020 at 11:16:00AM +1000, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>> 
>> I think we started congratulating ourselves too early. As you know, things 
>> are
>> not so great in Victoria.
> 
> Indeed, we're not out of the woods yet.

No one is. That virus is a serious crap. And the longer we take to defeat it 
makes higher the probability that he evolves.
The “human factor” clearly does not help here.

Bruno


> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>  http://www.hpcoders.com.au
> 
> 
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