Re: Re: Why religious truth is the highest truth
Hi Stephen P. King Depending on the existence of others is fine but incomplete. A flood does not depend on the existence of others, it's just contingent on too much rain. And not enough time passed by for the flood to drain down. Come back in a month and the flood's gone. So time is important, as well as immediate context. Note that this follows Kant's definitions of existence: consisting of two joined factors: time for when an event occurs, and space (context) for what happens. By themselves neither one is a substance. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-04, 12:24:05 Subject: Re: Why religious truth is the highest truth On 11/4/2012 8:10 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Necessary truths can't be contingent, because contingent truths by definition are contingent on circumstances and so may not always be true. Scientific truth, or any truth of this world, is such. Dear Roger, By contingent I mean dependent on the co-existence of others. Existence cannot be dependent on anything at all, thus is must be taken in our explanations to be ontologically fundamental. Pierce taught that consensus or pragmatic truth is supreme. What people believe in their hearts, what they believe subjectively. What they experience now. I love Peirce's cryptic sense of irony. ;--) Why is pragmatic truth supreme ? Even higher than a necessary truth? 1 + 1 = 2, a statement, is a necessary truith, but the higher truth is to know that 1 +1 =2, to personally accept and believe that. If many agree, that is even better. Can we reason outside of our explanations? Can we discuss the content of our discussions? Can we escape from the implications of regress? If many, such as the Christian church, accept a truth such as God created the world, you might want to consider it. But it is only true if you pragmatically accept it as true. Lutherans call that acceptance faith. So what about what the Hyperboreans call that acceptance? And what of the Ponies or the Mormons or the Blue People? Does it matter who it is? There are many forms of truth-- necessary and contingent truths, subjective and objective truths, truths by correspondence, or through coherency, pragmatic truth, eye witness truth, and so forth. In the end, one accepts the truth he has the most faith in. So faith again rules. Of course, because what is faith but the expectation of a future truth? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/4/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 13:31:14 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 8:57 AM, Roger Clough wrote: The properties of spacetime things are what can be measured (ie facts). The properties of beyond spacetime things are propositions that can't be contradicted (necessary truths). Hi Roger, I do not assume that the can't be contradicted is an a priori fixed apartheid on truths. I define necessary truths to be contingent on many minds in agreement. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Why religious truth is the highest truth
On 11/5/2012 9:00 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Depending on the existence of others is fine but incomplete. A flood does not depend on the existence of others, it's just contingent on too much rain. And the in/ability of the boundary to contain the addition of water... And not enough time passed by for the flood to drain down. Come back in a month and the flood's gone. So time is important, as well as immediate context. Of course! Note that this follows Kant's definitions of existence: consisting of two joined factors: time for when an event occurs, and space (context) for what happens. By themselves neither one is a substance. I agree, but these definition ignore plurality and mutual exclusivity of points of view. Roger Clough,rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Why religious truth is the highest truth
Hi Stephen P. King Necessary truths can't be contingent, because contingent truths by definition are contingent on circumstances and so may not always be true. Scientific truth, or any truth of this world, is such. Pierce taught that consensus or pragmatic truth is supreme. What people believe in their hearts, what they believe subjectively. What they experience now. Why is pragmatic truth supreme ? Even higher than a necessary truth? 1 + 1 = 2, a statement, is a necessary truith, but the higher truth is to know that 1 +1 =2, to personally accept and believe that. If many agree, that is even better. If many, such as the Christian church, accept a truth such as God created the world, you might want to consider it. But it is only true if you pragmatically accept it as true. Lutherans call that acceptance faith. There are many forms of truth-- necessary and contingent truths, subjective and objective truths, truths by correspondence, or through coherency, pragmatic truth, eye witness truth, and so forth. In the end, one accepts the truth he has the most faith in. So faith again rules. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/4/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 13:31:14 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 8:57 AM, Roger Clough wrote: The properties of spacetime things are what can be measured (ie facts). The properties of beyond spacetime things are propositions that can't be contradicted (necessary truths). Hi Roger, I do not assume that the can't be contradicted is an a priori fixed apartheid on truths. I define necessary truths to be contingent on many minds in agreement. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Why religious truth is the highest truth
On 11/4/2012 8:10 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Necessary truths can't be contingent, because contingent truths by definition are contingent on circumstances and so may not always be true. Scientific truth, or any truth of this world, is such. Dear Roger, By contingent I mean dependent on the co-existence of others. Existence cannot be dependent on anything at all, thus is must be taken in our explanations to be ontologically fundamental. Pierce taught that consensus or pragmatic truth is supreme. What people believe in their hearts, what they believe subjectively. What they experience now. I love Peirce's cryptic sense of irony. ;--) Why is pragmatic truth supreme ? Even higher than a necessary truth? 1 + 1 = 2, a statement, is a necessary truith, but the higher truth is to know that 1 +1 =2, to personally accept and believe that. If many agree, that is even better. Can we reason outside of our explanations? Can we discuss the content of our discussions? Can we escape from the implications of regress? If many, such as the Christian church, accept a truth such as God created the world, you might want to consider it. But it is only true if you pragmatically accept it as true. Lutherans call that acceptance faith. So what about what the Hyperboreans call that acceptance? And what of the Ponies or the Mormons or the Blue People? Does it matter who it is? There are many forms of truth-- necessary and contingent truths, subjective and objective truths, truths by correspondence, or through coherency, pragmatic truth, eye witness truth, and so forth. In the end, one accepts the truth he has the most faith in. So faith again rules. Of course, because what is faith but the expectation of a future truth? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net mailto:%20rclo...@verizon.net 11/4/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 13:31:14 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 8:57 AM, Roger Clough wrote: The properties of spacetime things are what can be measured (ie facts). The properties of beyond spacetime things are propositions that can't be contradicted (necessary truths). Hi Roger, I do not assume that the can't be contradicted is an a priori fixed apartheid on truths. I define necessary truths to be contingent on many minds in agreement. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Why religious truth is the highest truth
Rodger, why do you believe that religious truth is truth at all, much less the highest truth? It's because most small children are genetically hard wired to unquestionably believe most of what adults tell them and to carry that belief until the day they die; that's why religious belief has a very very strong geographical pattern. Infants in the Americas were told Christian Bullshit before they were able to reason properly and so they believed it, and when they become adults they taught the same Bullshit to their children; Middle Eastern infants were taught Islamic Bullshit and Indian children were taught Hindu Bullshit. And this self reinforcing cycle of idiocy that has cursed the Human Race for so many centuries causes most people in the Americas to believe in Christianity mythology, most in the Middle East to to believe in Islamic mythology and most in India to believe in Hindu mythology. John K Clark Hi Stephen P. King Necessary truths can't be contingent, because contingent truths by definition are contingent on circumstances and so may not always be true. Scientific truth, or any truth of this world, is such. Pierce taught that consensus or pragmatic truth is supreme. What people believe in their hearts, what they believe subjectively. What they experience now. Why is pragmatic truth supreme ? Even higher than a necessary truth? 1 + 1 = 2, a statement, is a necessary truith, but the higher truth is to know that 1 +1 =2, to personally accept and believe that. If many agree, that is even better. If many, such as the Christian church, accept a truth such as God created the world, you might want to consider it. But it is only true if you pragmatically accept it as true. Lutherans call that acceptance faith. There are many forms of truth-- necessary and contingent truths, subjective and objective truths, truths by correspondence, or through coherency, pragmatic truth, eye witness truth, and so forth. In the end, one accepts the truth he has the most faith in. So faith again rules. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net +rclo...@verizon.net 11/4/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 13:31:14 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 8:57 AM, Roger Clough wrote: The properties of spacetime things are what can be measured (ie facts). The properties of beyond spacetime things are propositions that can't be contradicted (necessary truths). Hi Roger, I do not assume that the can't be contradicted is an a priori fixed apartheid on truths. I define necessary truths to be contingent on many minds in agreement. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
