Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
On 07 Nov 2013, at 16:47, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Now, the question, of questions. Can our minds/personality which produces ideas, transcends our tissue and bones? Yes. Since, we are speaking science here, and science is concerned with explaining How things work, exist, we will need to answer How? Empirically, our bones and tissues quantum states are only the marks of our most probable computational histories. Our minds and personality exists, in infinitely many exemplars in arithmetic, out-of- time and out of spacewhich belongs to the categories of persistent universal number hallucinations. This should be easy to derive if you grasp all steps in the UD Argument, normally. NUMBERS == NUMBERS DREAMS == PHYSICAL REALITIES == HUMANS == HUMANS DREAMS = ... Bruno Locally. Relatively. Yes. Like this post depends on my computer's body right now. I agree. Globally, or theologically, it is more complex. Bodies, like orbitals, are map of accessible consistent extensions, and things are rich and complex, especially if you are open to the idea of conscious universal person, perhaps related to the universal numbers, or the Löbian one. Platonists believes in truth, beauty, justice, ... and computationalist knows that those are like real family, full of tension and contradictions, which in a sense makes them alive, and almost recognizable from lives to lives. Our bodies can be the vehicle of ideas which transcends them. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Nov 6, 2013 5:35 pm Subject: Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot? On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:26, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 1:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Our bodies are both, I would say. But we are not our bodies, we are our values, ideas, memories, etc. But evolution implies that those are not independent of our bodies. Locally. Relatively. Yes. Like this post depends on my computer's body right now. I agree. Globally, or theologically, it is more complex. Bodies, like orbitals, are map of accessible consistent extensions, and things are rich and complex, especially if you are open to the idea of conscious universal person, perhaps related to the universal numbers, or the Löbian one. Platonists believes in truth, beauty, justice, ... and computationalist knows that those are like real family, full of tension and contradictions, which in a sense makes them alive, and almost recognizable from lives to lives. Our bodies can be the vehicle of ideas which transcends them. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
On 07 Nov 2013, at 00:06, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 2:35 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:26, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 1:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Our bodies are both, I would say. But we are not our bodies, we are our values, ideas, memories, etc. But evolution implies that those are not independent of our bodies. Locally. Relatively. Yes. Like this post depends on my computer's body right now. I agree. Globally, or theologically, it is more complex. Bodies, like orbitals, are map of accessible consistent extensions, and things are rich and complex, especially if you are open to the idea of conscious universal person, perhaps related to the universal numbers, or the Löbian one. Platonists believes in truth, beauty, justice, ... and computationalist knows that those are like real family, full of tension and contradictions, which in a sense makes them alive, and almost recognizable from lives to lives. Our bodies can be the vehicle of ideas which transcends them. That fuzzes up the point that evolution accounts for our feelings of love, fairness, empathy, curiosity, xenophobia, etc. Whereas Platonism just believes in them and provides no explanatory account. It seems to me that they do. Plotinus provides better explanation than Plato, and comp gives an utterly simple and clean interpretation of Plotinus, which is testable. And this can explain the appearance of material information, and eventualy of evolution itself. Yet, we cannot start from nothing, we have to share at least one notion of thing to start the inquiry, and with computationalism, any finite elements with laws making them (Turing) universal can be used. Where does that come from remains a mystery, but that can be explained too. Of course I can add that Aristotelian takes the material reality for granted, and provides no explanatory account of it, nor of the link with the mind, etc. (beside being epistemologically inconsistent with computationalism, as I argue often). Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
Now, the question, of questions. Can our minds/personality which produces ideas, transcends our tissue and bones? Since, we are speaking science here, and science is concerned with explaining How things work, exist, we will need to answer How? Locally. Relatively. Yes. Like this post depends on my computer's body right now. I agree. Globally, or theologically, it is more complex. Bodies, like orbitals, are map of accessible consistent extensions, and things are rich and complex, especially if you are open to the idea of conscious universal person, perhaps related to the universal numbers, or the Löbian one. Platonists believes in truth, beauty, justice, ... and computationalist knows that those are like real family, full of tension and contradictions, which in a sense makes them alive, and almost recognizable from lives to lives. Our bodies can be the vehicle of ideas which transcends them. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Nov 6, 2013 5:35 pm Subject: Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot? On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:26, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 1:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Our bodies are both, I would say. But we are not our bodies, we are our values, ideas, memories, etc. But evolution implies that those are not independent of our bodies. Locally. Relatively. Yes. Like this post depends on my computer's body right now. I agree. Globally, or theologically, it is more complex. Bodies, like orbitals, are map of accessible consistent extensions, and things are rich and complex, especially if you are open to the idea of conscious universal person, perhaps related to the universal numbers, or the Löbian one. Platonists believes in truth, beauty, justice, ... and computationalist knows that those are like real family, full of tension and contradictions, which in a sense makes them alive, and almost recognizable from lives to lives. Our bodies can be the vehicle of ideas which transcends them. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
On 06 Nov 2013, at 07:14, Chris de Morsella wrote: A human has something like ten times as many bacteria in its body than it does cells with human DNA. Pretty much all life forms are in fact complex multi-species ecosystems that by and large have evolved to work together in ways we hardly understand. To give some perspective I’ve read there are something like fifty species of microorganisms that specialize just on the highly specialized niche of living on human tooth enamel. That’s just our teeth! We haven’t even gotten to the gum lines (which are a veritable jungle thriving with microbial life) and the gut, which is microbial central. We are sieves and the world flows through our bodies; we are walking, talking ecosystems…. And so is every other living thing, that we can see. Even bacteria have bacteriophages. Even within a single cell; mitochondria carry their own DNA and it could be argued the modern cell is the fruit of an ancient union of previously different life forms in the distant origins of emergent life. Most cells organels are ancient bacteria, apparently. Some think that the nucleus might be an ancient virus. Are we organisms; or ecosystems? Our bodies are both, I would say. But we are not our bodies, we are our values, ideas, memories, etc. That runs through a complex colony of bacteria, microbes, and modern cells, which are quite plausibly the result of ancient bacteria and viruses associations. I think. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
On 11/6/2013 1:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Our bodies are both, I would say. But we are not our bodies, we are our values, ideas, memories, etc. But evolution implies that those are not independent of our bodies. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 4:06:29 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 07:14, Chris de Morsella wrote: A human has something like ten times as many bacteria in its body than it does cells with human DNA. Pretty much all life forms are in fact complex multi-species ecosystems that by and large have evolved to work together in ways we hardly understand. To give some perspective I’ve read there are something like fifty species of microorganisms that specialize just on the highly specialized niche of living on human tooth enamel. That’s just our teeth! We haven’t even gotten to the gum lines (which are a veritable jungle thriving with microbial life) and the gut, which is microbial central. We are sieves and the world flows through our bodies; we are walking, talking ecosystems…. And so is every other living thing, that we can see. Even bacteria have bacteriophages. Even within a single cell; mitochondria carry their own DNA and it could be argued the modern cell is the fruit of an ancient union of previously different life forms in the distant origins of emergent life. Most cells organels are ancient bacteria, apparently. Some think that the nucleus might be an ancient virus. Are we organisms; or ecosystems? Our bodies are both, I would say. But we are not our bodies, we are our values, ideas, memories, etc. That runs through a complex colony of bacteria, microbes, and modern cells, which are quite plausibly the result of ancient bacteria and viruses associations. I think. On the level that there are bacteria, we don't exist. Bacteria exist in our (technologically extended) frame of reference, but we do not exist in their frame of reference. The confusion of levels is what compels us to imagine that macrophenomenal experiences must be isomorphic to microphysical functions. They overlap, but in the same sense that two different screenplays which have the same number of words could be stored in the same quantity of memory. Microphenomenal experiences relate to microphysical structures. Macrophenomenal experiences relate to macrophysical structures. We do not live in our brain, or our body, but in the world of human-scale interaction. Of course, that interaction is influenced on all sides by sub-personal, super-personal, and impersonal consequences, but they are not presented directly on the personal level. Sub-personal conditions are represented as urges and sensations while super-personal conditions are represented as coincidences and opportunities for conscience. Craig Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
Chris - Liz - Bruno Nov.6: * Are we organisms; or ecosystems? * Who cares? those are WORDS without proper meaning. OF COURSE WE ARE complexities (without knowing what they are indeed) and we follow the partial list of information we so far received. Try to figure it as nations (countries?) in the UN with diverse goals and capabilities, interests and tasks etc. All behave in unison, - seemingly - but every one according to a special role. Our diversity is much greater and we really know very very little about it. That is our biology. Some add to it the 'constitution' (consciousness?) and call something a MInd. Our potential comparison is weak. We are impressed by the temporary explanations - conventional science finds for phenomena that appears to show up. Figments. The only thing we know for sure is that we do not know the vast body of the 'rest'. We learn daily and have no clue WHAT and HOW MUCH there is to come later on (if we indeed CAN get it all). On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:06 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 07:14, Chris de Morsella wrote: A human has something like ten times as many bacteria in its body than it does cells with human DNA. Pretty much all life forms are in fact complex multi-species ecosystems that by and large have evolved to work together in ways we hardly understand. To give some perspective I’ve read there are something like fifty species of microorganisms that specialize just on the highly specialized niche of living on human tooth enamel. That’s just our teeth! We haven’t even gotten to the gum lines (which are a veritable jungle thriving with microbial life) and the gut, which is microbial central. We are sieves and the world flows through our bodies; we are walking, talking ecosystems…. And so is every other living thing, that we can see. Even bacteria have bacteriophages. Even within a single cell; mitochondria carry their own DNA and it could be argued the modern cell is the fruit of an ancient union of previously different life forms in the distant origins of emergent life. Most cells organels are ancient bacteria, apparently. Some think that the nucleus might be an ancient virus. Are we organisms; or ecosystems? Our bodies are both, I would say. But we are not our bodies, we are our values, ideas, memories, etc. That runs through a complex colony of bacteria, microbes, and modern cells, which are quite plausibly the result of ancient bacteria and viruses associations. I think. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:26, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 1:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Our bodies are both, I would say. But we are not our bodies, we are our values, ideas, memories, etc. But evolution implies that those are not independent of our bodies. Locally. Relatively. Yes. Like this post depends on my computer's body right now. I agree. Globally, or theologically, it is more complex. Bodies, like orbitals, are map of accessible consistent extensions, and things are rich and complex, especially if you are open to the idea of conscious universal person, perhaps related to the universal numbers, or the Löbian one. Platonists believes in truth, beauty, justice, ... and computationalist knows that those are like real family, full of tension and contradictions, which in a sense makes them alive, and almost recognizable from lives to lives. Our bodies can be the vehicle of ideas which transcends them. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
On 11/6/2013 2:35 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:26, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 1:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Our bodies are both, I would say. But we are not our bodies, we are our values, ideas, memories, etc. But evolution implies that those are not independent of our bodies. Locally. Relatively. Yes. Like this post depends on my computer's body right now. I agree. Globally, or theologically, it is more complex. Bodies, like orbitals, are map of accessible consistent extensions, and things are rich and complex, especially if you are open to the idea of conscious universal person, perhaps related to the universal numbers, or the Löbian one. Platonists believes in truth, beauty, justice, ... and computationalist knows that those are like real family, full of tension and contradictions, which in a sense makes them alive, and almost recognizable from lives to lives. Our bodies can be the vehicle of ideas which transcends them. That fuzzes up the point that evolution accounts for our feelings of love, fairness, empathy, curiosity, xenophobia, etc. Whereas Platonism just believes in them and provides no explanatory account. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
A human has something like ten times as many bacteria in its body than it does cells with human DNA. Pretty much all life forms are in fact complex multi-species ecosystems that by and large have evolved to work together in ways we hardly understand. To give some perspective I've read there are something like fifty species of microorganisms that specialize just on the highly specialized niche of living on human tooth enamel. That's just our teeth! We haven't even gotten to the gum lines (which are a veritable jungle thriving with microbial life) and the gut, which is microbial central. We are sieves and the world flows through our bodies; we are walking, talking ecosystems.. And so is every other living thing, that we can see. Even bacteria have bacteriophages. Even within a single cell; mitochondria carry their own DNA and it could be argued the modern cell is the fruit of an ancient union of previously different life forms in the distant origins of emergent life. Are we organisms; or ecosystems? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: shouldn't biology get a reboot?
Both, I believe. (But watch Osmosis Jones for the definitive answer.) On 6 November 2013 19:14, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: A human has something like ten times as many bacteria in its body than it does cells with human DNA. Pretty much all life forms are in fact complex multi-species ecosystems that by and large have evolved to work together in ways we hardly understand. To give some perspective I’ve read there are something like fifty species of microorganisms that specialize just on the highly specialized niche of living on human tooth enamel. That’s just our teeth! We haven’t even gotten to the gum lines (which are a veritable jungle thriving with microbial life) and the gut, which is microbial central. We are sieves and the world flows through our bodies; we are walking, talking ecosystems…. And so is every other living thing, that we can see. Even bacteria have bacteriophages. Even within a single cell; mitochondria carry their own DNA and it could be argued the modern cell is the fruit of an ancient union of previously different life forms in the distant origins of emergent life. Are we organisms; or ecosystems? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
