Re: The arrow of time is the easiest computational direction for life in the manifold
Ronald, Thanks for the reference. Of course Lobo implicitly assume physicalism, so we cannot really built from that. I guess you know that Gödel is the first one showing that there exist solutions of Einstein's GR equations with closed time loop. Circling computations exist (trivially) in the universal deployment too, but they are eliminated in the ultimate measure because the set of such loops are countable. You can always bet you are not belonging to such loop. I would say (assuming comp). Best, Bruno On 04 Feb 2009, at 19:25, ronaldheld wrote: > > Bruno > Have you seen this: > V. Walsh, "A theory of magnitude:common cortical metrics of time, spce > and quantity", trends in Cognitive Sciences, 7, 483 (2003) > This was a one reference in a paper on time I just read today( Time > and Causation http://arxiv.org/abs/0902.0559 > Ronald > > On Jan 25, 3:02 am, "Alberto G.Corona" wrote: >> Brent: >> >> I tried to clarify my point of view in my previous response. This is >> my answer to these questions. >> >> On Jan 25, 5:53 am, Brent Meeker wrote: >> >> >> >>> Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/24 Alberto G.Corona : >> > But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose > themselves, > the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and > make grow > the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these > events > exist in our space time; Just go in the reverse time dimension > in our > space-time manifold to see them. The laws of physics permits > them. > They are just reversible chemical reactions, reversible object > collisions at the particle or macroscopic level. >> > In terms of our perception of time, the outcomes we see happens > just > because they are cuasi-infinitely probable and the reverse > counterparts, cuasi infinitely improbalbe. But, that is also an > illlusion of the arrow of time, because , In terms of time- > agnostic > spacetime manifold reasoning, our life vector in space-time go > along > the increase of entrophy, not the other way around. That is: the > outcomes of probability laws are a consequience of our > trajectory in > space time. Why our life follow this direction?. The reason is > computational, as I said before. >> The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact progressing in the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run first and 2008 is run second according to an external clock, we would not be able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in every observed part of the universe? >> >>> Right. It's generally thought that the direction of increasing >>> entropy is >>> defined by the expansion of the universe since the expansion >>> increases the >>> available states for matter. But it's hard to show that this must >>> also >>> determine the radiation arrow of time. >> >>> But at the micro-level of QM there is presumably no change in >>> entropy, the >>> evolution is unitary. So then the question becomes: Why the >>> approximately >>> classical world, in which the coarse-gained entropy does increase? >> >>> Brent >> For only if the glass shattering occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer would something unusual be noticed.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: The arrow of time is the easiest computational direction for life in the manifold
Bruno Have you seen this: V. Walsh, "A theory of magnitude:common cortical metrics of time, spce and quantity", trends in Cognitive Sciences, 7, 483 (2003) This was a one reference in a paper on time I just read today( Time and Causation http://arxiv.org/abs/0902.0559 Ronald On Jan 25, 3:02 am, "Alberto G.Corona" wrote: > Brent: > > I tried to clarify my point of view in my previous response. This is > my answer to these questions. > > On Jan 25, 5:53 am, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > > Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > 2009/1/24 Alberto G.Corona : > > > >> But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose themselves, > > >> the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and make grow > > >> the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these events > > >> exist in our space time; Just go in the reverse time dimension in our > > >> space-time manifold to see them. The laws of physics permits them. > > >> They are just reversible chemical reactions, reversible object > > >> collisions at the particle or macroscopic level. > > > >> In terms of our perception of time, the outcomes we see happens just > > >> because they are cuasi-infinitely probable and the reverse > > >> counterparts, cuasi infinitely improbalbe. But, that is also an > > >> illlusion of the arrow of time, because , In terms of time-agnostic > > >> spacetime manifold reasoning, our life vector in space-time go along > > >> the increase of entrophy, not the other way around. That is: the > > >> outcomes of probability laws are a consequience of our trajectory in > > >> space time. Why our life follow this direction?. The reason is > > >> computational, as I said before. > > > > The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the > > > increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact progressing in > > > the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For > > > example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run first and > > > 2008 is run second according to an external clock, we would not be > > > able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time > > > question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in > > > every observed part of the universe? > > > Right. It's generally thought that the direction of increasing entropy is > > defined by the expansion of the universe since the expansion increases the > > available states for matter. But it's hard to show that this must also > > determine the radiation arrow of time. > > > But at the micro-level of QM there is presumably no change in entropy, the > > evolution is unitary. So then the question becomes: Why the approximately > > classical world, in which the coarse-gained entropy does increase? > > > Brent > > > >For only if the glass shattering > > > occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer > > > would something unusual be noticed.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: The arrow of time is the easiest computational direction for life in the manifold
Brent: I tried to clarify my point of view in my previous response. This is my answer to these questions. On Jan 25, 5:53 am, Brent Meeker wrote: > Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > 2009/1/24 Alberto G.Corona : > > >> But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose themselves, > >> the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and make grow > >> the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these events > >> exist in our space time; Just go in the reverse time dimension in our > >> space-time manifold to see them. The laws of physics permits them. > >> They are just reversible chemical reactions, reversible object > >> collisions at the particle or macroscopic level. > > >> In terms of our perception of time, the outcomes we see happens just > >> because they are cuasi-infinitely probable and the reverse > >> counterparts, cuasi infinitely improbalbe. But, that is also an > >> illlusion of the arrow of time, because , In terms of time-agnostic > >> spacetime manifold reasoning, our life vector in space-time go along > >> the increase of entrophy, not the other way around. That is: the > >> outcomes of probability laws are a consequience of our trajectory in > >> space time. Why our life follow this direction?. The reason is > >> computational, as I said before. > > > The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the > > increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact progressing in > > the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For > > example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run first and > > 2008 is run second according to an external clock, we would not be > > able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time > > question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in > > every observed part of the universe? > > Right. It's generally thought that the direction of increasing entropy is > defined by the expansion of the universe since the expansion increases the > available states for matter. But it's hard to show that this must also > determine the radiation arrow of time. > > But at the micro-level of QM there is presumably no change in entropy, the > evolution is unitary. So then the question becomes: Why the approximately > classical world, in which the coarse-gained entropy does increase? > > Brent > > >For only if the glass shattering > > occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer > > would something unusual be noticed. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: The arrow of time is the easiest computational direction for life in the manifold
> The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the > increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact progressing in > the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For > example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run first and > 2008 is run second The key here is that neiter our universe is simulated nor time has meaning outside our psichology. There are simulaton, but this simulation is carried out by us, the living beings. We are the ones that simulate in advance the events along a direction fo the manifold in order to advance actions for the next point in this coordinate. Why? because we need to planify furter actions in order to grow and reproduce in succesive progression in this direction. This progression along this direction is what we perceive as time. Because living beings are the ones that must simulate in advance what comes next, at the chemical, instinctive, rational level, this iimposes very serious computational restrictions to the direction of time. Simply, the reverse simulation , along the enthropy increase demands infinite or near infinite resources computational resources. It is also possible simulate in any lateral direction, any direction in the manifold, but I hipotesize that they are also very heavy to calculate. Thinking in terms of Natural Selection: The living beings that tried to progress along other directions are extinct, They needed too much computational resources!!!. Or even never appeared in the first place!. For this reason, the perception of time, enthrophy and probability, and the initial conditions of the universe are a byproduct of this restriction of computability in living beiings. living beings are like fractals that grow, reproduce and die along the temporal coordinate. There are two ways to express a trajectory , and here I use the Max Tegmark coined frog/bird view; The frog view is time dependent and uses the input of the previus step, wich is the view of computers, living beings and us, and the other is the bird view that contemplates the manifold or part of a manifold . The first type of beings strugle for anticipating the next step,. The second see the enlarged mandelbrot figure of all our life, and this figure is part of the manifold described maybe by a single formula The M formula or whatever may be the grand unification theory. This is not so difficult to understand: This is the difference between the expression of a integral in mathematical terms versus the step that a computer must perform along the integrration coordinate to calculate its numerical value. >according to an external clock, we would not be > able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time > question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in > every observed part of the universe? For only if the glass shattering > occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer > would something unusual be noticed. > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: The arrow of time is the easiest computational direction for life in the manifold
> > Right. It's generally thought that the direction of increasing entropy is > > > defined by the expansion of the universe since the expansion increases > > the > available states for matter. But it's hard to show that this must > > also > determine the radiation arrow of time.On the contrary, no physicist > > I have seen talking about the arrow of time believes that it's defined by > > the direction of expansion--in fact, many of them make a point of saying > > that idea doesn't work because if the universe is sufficiently dense that > > it begins to contract again at some point in the future, there's no reason > > to expect the arrow of time to suddenly reverse in the contracting > > phase.Jesse --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: The arrow of time is the easiest computational direction for life in the manifold
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/1/24 Alberto G.Corona : > >> But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose themselves, >> the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and make grow >> the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these events >> exist in our space time; Just go in the reverse time dimension in our >> space-time manifold to see them. The laws of physics permits them. >> They are just reversible chemical reactions, reversible object >> collisions at the particle or macroscopic level. >> >> In terms of our perception of time, the outcomes we see happens just >> because they are cuasi-infinitely probable and the reverse >> counterparts, cuasi infinitely improbalbe. But, that is also an >> illlusion of the arrow of time, because , In terms of time-agnostic >> spacetime manifold reasoning, our life vector in space-time go along >> the increase of entrophy, not the other way around. That is: the >> outcomes of probability laws are a consequience of our trajectory in >> space time. Why our life follow this direction?. The reason is >> computational, as I said before. > > The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the > increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact progressing in > the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For > example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run first and > 2008 is run second according to an external clock, we would not be > able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time > question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in > every observed part of the universe? Right. It's generally thought that the direction of increasing entropy is defined by the expansion of the universe since the expansion increases the available states for matter. But it's hard to show that this must also determine the radiation arrow of time. But at the micro-level of QM there is presumably no change in entropy, the evolution is unitary. So then the question becomes: Why the approximately classical world, in which the coarse-gained entropy does increase? Brent >For only if the glass shattering > occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer > would something unusual be noticed. > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: The arrow of time is the easiest computational direction for life in the manifold
2009/1/24 Alberto G.Corona : > But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose themselves, > the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and make grow > the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these events > exist in our space time; Just go in the reverse time dimension in our > space-time manifold to see them. The laws of physics permits them. > They are just reversible chemical reactions, reversible object > collisions at the particle or macroscopic level. > > In terms of our perception of time, the outcomes we see happens just > because they are cuasi-infinitely probable and the reverse > counterparts, cuasi infinitely improbalbe. But, that is also an > illlusion of the arrow of time, because , In terms of time-agnostic > spacetime manifold reasoning, our life vector in space-time go along > the increase of entrophy, not the other way around. That is: the > outcomes of probability laws are a consequience of our trajectory in > space time. Why our life follow this direction?. The reason is > computational, as I said before. The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact progressing in the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run first and 2008 is run second according to an external clock, we would not be able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in every observed part of the universe? For only if the glass shattering occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer would something unusual be noticed. -- Stathis Papaioannou --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
