Re: Survey of Consciousness Models
On 11 Oct 2012, at 17:31, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 11.10.2012 17:20 Bruno Marchal said the following: On 10 Oct 2012, at 21:27, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 10.10.2012 17:16 Craig Weinberg said the following: http://s33light.org/post/33296583824 Have a look. Objections? Suggestions? I am not sure if vitalism is a model of consciousness. Eliminativism is not Epiphenomenalism. The small difference is that epiphenomenalism assumes mental phenomena and eliminativism not. Epiphenomenalism acknowledge that mental phenomena do exist but they just do not have causal power on human behavior. Then there is Reductive Physicalisms: Mental states are identical to physical states. It is not functionalism though, as everything goes through physical states directly. The difference with eliminativism is subtle. There is Property Dualism and there is Externalism. You will find nice podcasts about it at Most assume, without knowing, more infinities in both matter and comp, than the infinities Turing recoverable by the machines in her first person perspective on arithmetic. Still Aristotelian. Perhaps one of them is correct (certainly not eliminativism, I think), but none are logically and epistemologically compatible with the quite weak form of computationalism we can use in cognitive science. This podcast reviews physicalism-based models of consciousness, hence one could refer to it as Aristotelian models of consciousness indeed. As long as you don't use comp (implicitly and explicitly), which is often the case. The problem is that most physicalist believes in comp, or can be shown to believe (perhaps unconsciously) in comp. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Survey of Consciousness Models
On 10.10.2012 21:45 Craig Weinberg said the following: On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:27:52 PM UTC-4, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... Then there is Reductive Physicalisms: Mental states are identical to physical states. It is not functionalism though, as everything goes through physical states directly. The difference with eliminativism is subtle. Too subtle for me maybe. What does one say that the other doesn't? Reductive Physicalisms starts with a metaphysical assumptions that mental states are identical to physical states. Hence it is a starting point that consciousness is identical with some physical states. Eliminativism on the other side plays induction. They say that the history of science shows us that physics explains us more and more from the area of consciousness. The conclude by induction that at some day physics will explains everything of consciousness. Evgenii You will find nice podcasts about it at A Romp Through the Philosophy of Mind http://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/romp-through-philosophy-mind Thanks! Will check em out when I can! Craig Evgenii -- http://blog.rudnyi.ru/2012/08/philosophy-of-mind.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Survey of Consciousness Models
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 2:59 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: On 10.10.2012 21:45 Craig Weinberg said the following: On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:27:52 PM UTC-4, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... Then there is Reductive Physicalisms: Mental states are identical to physical states. It is not functionalism though, as everything goes through physical states directly. The difference with eliminativism is subtle. Too subtle for me maybe. What does one say that the other doesn't? Reductive Physicalisms starts with a metaphysical assumptions that mental states are identical to physical states. Hence it is a starting point that consciousness is identical with some physical states. Eliminativism on the other side plays induction. They say that the history of science shows us that physics explains us more and more from the area of consciousness. The conclude by induction that at some day physics will explains everything of consciousness. Evgenii Evgenii, True if string theory is included in physics, Richard You will find nice podcasts about it at A Romp Through the Philosophy of Mind http://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/romp-through-philosophy-mind Thanks! Will check em out when I can! Craig Evgenii -- http://blog.rudnyi.ru/2012/08/philosophy-of-mind.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Survey of Consciousness Models
Hi Craig Weinberg Cool. I just signed up at tumblr previously. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/11/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-10, 11:16:43 Subject: Survey of Consciousness Models http://s33light.org/post/33296583824 Have a look. Objections? Suggestions? http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboeqxC0Vl1qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboih6q3e11qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboik9Wcp91qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboihhg9Lp1qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboikjKxfd1qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboikzU4rP1qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboil5yEId1qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboilft6Wi1qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboilptoRi1qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboim1cLHr1qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboima3XH41qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboimmJjml1qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboimu6PLu1qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboin0ueLw1qe3q3v.jpg -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/w2vea_kdxlEJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Survey of Consciousness Models
On 10.10.2012 17:16 Craig Weinberg said the following: http://s33light.org/post/33296583824 Have a look. Objections? Suggestions? I am not sure if vitalism is a model of consciousness. Eliminativism is not Epiphenomenalism. The small difference is that epiphenomenalism assumes mental phenomena and eliminativism not. Epiphenomenalism acknowledge that mental phenomena do exist but they just do not have causal power on human behavior. Then there is Reductive Physicalisms: Mental states are identical to physical states. It is not functionalism though, as everything goes through physical states directly. The difference with eliminativism is subtle. There is Property Dualism and there is Externalism. You will find nice podcasts about it at A Romp Through the Philosophy of Mind http://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/romp-through-philosophy-mind Evgenii -- http://blog.rudnyi.ru/2012/08/philosophy-of-mind.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Survey of Consciousness Models
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:27:52 PM UTC-4, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 10.10.2012 17:16 Craig Weinberg said the following: http://s33light.org/post/33296583824 Have a look. Objections? Suggestions? I am not sure if vitalism is a model of consciousness. Yeah, this is more of an informal consideration of the breakpoints between awareness and matter. I bring in vitalism as a name for the breakpoint which is assigned to biology as far as being the difference between what can evolve awareness and what never can. Eliminativism is not Epiphenomenalism. The small difference is that epiphenomenalism assumes mental phenomena and eliminativism not. I wasn't really talking about epiphenomenalism, I was saying that eliminativism treats consciousness as an epiphenomenon. Or are you saying that eliminativism eliminates even the concept of consciousness as an experience - which yeah, maybe it does, even though it really doesn't even make sense unless the inside of our brain looked like a Cartesian theater. Epiphenomenalism acknowledge that mental phenomena do exist but they just do not have causal power on human behavior. Yeah, I see epiphenomenalism as a principle which could be attached to a lot of the ones that I listed. You could have epiphenomenal idealism if you believe that it is 'all God's Will', or whatever. It isn't really in the same category as what I was after here in looking at where the breakpoints are. Like substance dualism, it is just saying what consciousness is not but offers no explanation about what it is. Then there is Reductive Physicalisms: Mental states are identical to physical states. It is not functionalism though, as everything goes through physical states directly. The difference with eliminativism is subtle. Too subtle for me maybe. What does one say that the other doesn't? There is Property Dualism and there is Externalism. Externalism is a good one that I should add maybe. It still doesn't point to who gets to be conscious and who doesn't though. Property dualism, like Substance dualism seems like it could be attached to several of the others. It doesn't really specify at what level the property of consciousness kicks in. You will find nice podcasts about it at A Romp Through the Philosophy of Mind http://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/romp-through-philosophy-mind Thanks! Will check em out when I can! Craig Evgenii -- http://blog.rudnyi.ru/2012/08/philosophy-of-mind.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/WWH98ZJcPTIJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
