I was merely pointing out that MMY's description of soma being consumed in the
gut as part of the enlightenment process may not be invalid. WHAT is consuming
the soma is another matter.
Of course, a collection of 100 million nerve cells running along the 9 meter
long GI tract is a bizarre
Thanks for the great posts on this topic, Lawson. Here's another article:
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-18779997
On Friday, April 4, 2014 11:30 PM, lengli...@cox.net lengli...@cox.net
wrote:
Actually, Maharishi's statement about soma, devas eating it in our gut, etc.,
is quite well
On 4/4/2014 11:51 PM, TurquoiseBee wrote:
Lawson, do you not see that you are doing exactly what we've suggested
the TM researchers are doing? That is, *assuming* that anything
Maharishi said is true, and then finding any way possible to interpret
data to make it appear true? Please explain to
Respond intelligently to what, your comments on the LINK I posted about Soma?
You didn't make any, you went on a meaningless ramble about TM translations as
though they are different somehow from the ones everyone else reads. Look at
the wiki article. Soma is drink made from a plant. Why the
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote :
On 4/3/2014 10:08 AM, Share Long wrote:
Theoretically they could even find soma in the blood.
Maybe, but after all, the ancient Vedic rishis used to drink the soma
but the recipe was lost thousands of years ago and the plant
salyavin, is it possible that soma is both? Both something found in plants and
in the gut of long term spiritual practitioners?
On Friday, April 4, 2014 1:10 AM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Respond intelligently to what, your comments on the LINK I posted about Soma?
You
Steve, I didn't know that about Communion, that some people think of it as
cannabalism. I can see how they might think that. As for me, I've never been
comfortable having some of the wine, which is allegedly become the blood of
Christ.
Maybe the early Christians morphed what Jesus did at the
I couldn't begin to calculate the chances of a coincidence like that Share!
The 9th mandala is about a drink made from plants, and it must have been a
good one considering how much they go on about it.
The idea of good digestion giving you good spiritual experiences is a given
though,
Share, I think you can find all manner of opinions about communion. I just
mentioned that as one comment I once heard.
As rituals go,it seems okay to me. Is it hurting anyone? Not that I can see.
Does it bring people some measure of comfort, or spiritual upliftment? It
seems to.
elevated, and go
around like Buddhist monks, bare-footed and dressed in common robes.
On Fri, 4/4/14, steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date
No, the question of whether it's literal or symbolic/metaphorical/poetic
applies to any translation, not just the one TM uses. I was unclear on that
point, sorry.
As to why Maharishi had us read it in translation, if you'll recall we were
instructed not to pay any attention to the semantic
On 4/4/2014 1:09 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
Soma is drink made from a plant.
In fact, the Vedic soma was a decoction made from a combination of
ingredients, one of which was an alkaloid substance - the amanita
muscaria. Apparently the recipe for Vedic soma was lost due to the long
lapse of
On 4/4/2014 2:07 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
Try some magic mushrooms.
The use of substances is a ritual practice that is abundantly attested
in the shamanic world as well as among some yogins, and in the Aryana
Vedas. We know that Patanjali himself puts simples (ausadhi), together
with samadhi,
On 4/4/2014 6:36 AM, Share Long wrote:
Both something found in plants and in the gut of long term spiritual
practitioners?
Good question, Share. The primary ingredient in TM's bio-chemical
laboratory is probably seratonin. The substance has been shown, in
scientific studies, to be connected
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :
Share, I think you can find all manner of opinions about communion. I just
mentioned that as one comment I once heard.
As rituals go,it seems okay to me. Is it hurting anyone? Not that I can see.
Does it bring people
On 4/4/2014 7:04 AM, Share Long wrote:
Maybe the early Christians morphed what Jesus did at the Last Supper
to something more similar to what the pagans were doing.
It's all about the sacrifice, bth pagan and later Semitic, then
Christian. The greatest principle of Vedic thinkers was the
Richard, thank you for all the wonderful knowledge you're posting this morning.
And I admit that I cringe at the word sacrifice. Can we substitute the word
surrender? BTW, this morning my yogic flying had a wonderful devotional
quality. That happens once in a while and I'm always grateful when
Thank you for these beautiful points, Ann. Now I'll do the Libra thing and
mention how ancient people would eat various body parts of slain enemies to
ingest their courage, etc. Go figure!
On Friday, April 4, 2014 9:05 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com
awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote:
---In
salyavin, I think it'll be fascinating when science can give us an indication
of what might be meant by gods in this context and also by eating. BTW, I think
soma has something to do with immortality so no wonder they sing its praises.
On Friday, April 4, 2014 8:05 AM, salyavin808
And yet, the word sacrifice bothers you. Share, in all your posts to Ann,
you try to find a way to try and show that you are one upping her or, mostly,
you work to throw dirty dish water or treat the essence of what she says with
contempt (even if you acknowledge them, as you did here). But,
Emily, I am adding another point to what I think is a multi faceted and
therefore fascinating topic. You completely misinterpret me here as I think you
often do.
On Friday, April 4, 2014 10:25 AM, emilymae...@yahoo.com
emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote:
And yet, the word sacrifice bothers
Just doing the Libra thing here, Share. Smile. You can't see yourself
objectively; you don't know yourself as well as you think you do, imho. Have a
good day.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote :
Emily, I am adding another point to what I think is a multi
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote :
Thank you for these beautiful points, Ann. Now I'll do the Libra thing and
mention how ancient people would eat various body parts of slain enemies to
ingest their courage, etc. Go figure!
Exactly my point. No one would
Corrected...
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emilymaenot@... wrote :
And yet, the word sacrifice bothers you. Share, in all your posts to Ann,
you try to find a way to try and show that you are one upping her or, mostly,
you work to throw dirty dish water on her points or treat the
My apologies Share. I was just checking to see if my conscience was working.
It is! I will refrain from posting to you. How was what you posted a Libra
thang - did you mean that you were operating to balance? Was there a need
for that? Rather, it was consistent with the overall theme of
you only say that cause you never went to the Deep South and encountered any
dirt eaters (also known as clay eaters)
On Fri, 4/4/14, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
Emily, I've heard that Libras like to show at least two opposite sides of an
issue. And though I'm merely a Libra ascendent, I have that quality. As I said,
the topic of humans and divinities ingesting one another is fascinating to me.
Ingesting and tapping here (-:
On Friday, April 4, 2014
On 4/4/2014 9:32 AM, Share Long wrote:
And I admit that I cringe at the word sacrifice. Can we substitute the
word surrender?
The Vedic Aryans that came into India around 1500 BC were very fond of
the caste system, the *sacrifice*, the rituals, and the secret mantras
found in the Rig Veda.
Wonderful history, Richard and I love that: you're only gonna get as much
enlightenment as you're going to get. It's extremely relaxing.
And it's fascinating to me that the practice of outer sacrifice is somehow
connected to the caste system. Probably a practical issue. Meaning that only
the
@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@...
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 4, 2014, 12:25 PM
Share
.
On Fri, 4/4/14, steve.sundur@...
steve.sundur@...
wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 4, 2014, 12:25 PM
On 4/4/2014 1:26 PM, Share Long wrote:
And it's fascinating to me that the practice of outer sacrifice is
somehow connected to the caste system.
It should be noted that the caste system came into India with the
Sanskrit speakers, that probably originated in the the Caucasus. The
Amanita
The devvas are fundamental vibrations of consciousness. The gut has a highly
complex nervous system all its own. While its not conscious in the same way our
brains our, using Tononi's phi, it almost certainly ranks high as a conscious
system.
L
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
95% of all serotonin is made in the Enteric System, the nervous system of the
gut. It might well be that most of the soma, that substance or substances
created by the nervous system to support enlightenment, is also made in the
Enteric System.
L
.
From: lengli...@cox.net lengli...@cox.net
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 5, 2014 6:39 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
The devvas are fundamental vibrations of consciousness. The gut has a highly
complex
...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 7:47 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
Cultmania 101. Isolation, mind altering practises, culturing a sense of
uniqueness and superiority through revelation of secret and privileged
knowledge... it's
.)
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 7:47 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
Cultmania 101. Isolation, mind altering practises, culturing a sense of
uniqueness and superiority through
to hear from the TM teachers
here to see if they had seen the tape and what they thought of it at the time
they saw it. That's all.
On Thu, 4/3/14, steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
was a superstitious man
and passed that crap onto his sycophants. I mean, anyone who would tell folk to
run hide when a solar eclipse is in the offing?
On Thu, 4/3/14, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
And thank you for giving your memory of this - another piece of info I had no
idea of - that the TM teachers could and did buy these tapes.
On Thu, 4/3/14, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
seen the tape and what they thought of it at the time
they saw it. That's all.
On Thu, 4/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@...
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
to the Movement. I think its
a very interesting bit of Movement history.
On Thu, 4/3/14, steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 11
BTW, here's the transcript of the tape:
http://minet.org/www.trancenet.net/secrets/soma/soma2.shtml
http://minet.org/www.trancenet.net/secrets/soma/soma2.shtml
Answering my own question below: It's definitely the Trancenet writer's image,
not Maharishi's, as you'll see if you read the
by the TM organization.
They were not. We had to pay for them. At least when I was teaching TM.
From: Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
What a bunch of manipulative honking you haters are doing against TM here. You
are cherry-picking some 'god' comments and making your own assumptions just to
make an argument. Reading the transcript, he's talking and using allegory to
lay out an inquiry to make a scientific design. Taking
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
I just found it interesting - as I said I think, somehow this particular
document had escaped my attention. I was told during the sidhi prep courses
that we produce soma in the stomach and only if we have soma being produced can
http://minet.org/www.trancenet.net/secrets/soma/index.shtml
http://minet.org/www.trancenet.net/secrets/soma/index.shtml
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
Its the ninth mandala actually, but it was never phrased so that I remember -
also it is significant that M who
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote :
BTW, here's the transcript of the tape:
http://minet.org/www.trancenet.net/secrets/soma/soma2.shtml
http://minet.org/www.trancenet.net/secrets/soma/soma2.shtml
Answering my own question below: It's definitely the Trancenet
: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 1:46 PM
What
a bunch of manipulative honking you haters are doing against
TM here.
You are cherry-picking some 'god
...@yahoo.com awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 1:49 PM
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
.
On Thu, 4/3/14, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com dhamiltony...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 1:46 PM
What
Actually, as I recall, they were planning to do some studies to see whether
soma could be detected. Whether they ever did them, with no result, or called
them off, I don't know.
You are hilarious! I recall someone on the sidhi preps asked something like
that - a nurse I think she was and the
Actually, Michael, his name is Doug not David. Just to help everyone keep
track, etc.
On Thu, 4/3/14, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday
Ann, I think it would be pretty involved and costly for the TMO to perform
endoscopies on hundreds of sidhas in order to have a valid study about soma in
the stomach! For one thing, I've always been put under when I have mine done.
On Thursday, April 3, 2014 8:49 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com
Judy, I've gotten the impression over the years that the TMO prefers to do non
invasive procedures for finding the physiological correlates of long term TM
and TMSP. One non invasive avenue they could take with regards to soma in the
stomach, is to test long term TMers for good digestion,
Steve, one of the meta issues that fascinates me about all this is how in
Catholicism we supposedly ingest the body and blood of Christ. What it suggests
to me is something that the mythologist Joseph Campbell might notice, that in
all cultures around the world, there's some notion of ingesting
From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
And then there's the whole issue of scientists' finding brain cells in the
stomach
Actually, they wouldn't have to do endoscopies on hundreds of sidhas. Why
would you need that many? Remember, what they'd be looking for is an unfamiliar
substance never before documented to exist in the human stomach. All you'd need
would be a few samples of the substance. Then you'd have to
@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
And then there's the whole issue of scientists' finding brain cells in the
stomach...
Not a mystery at all. You are what you eat. :-)
Return of the living Dead - BRAINS!!
Right, Judy and that's another reason why the whole issue seems extremely
challenging. Theoretically they could even find soma in the blood. But, as you
say, it would have to be identified as soma, etc. As I mentioned in another
post to you, I think it's more practical to make predictions about
.
On Thu, 4/3/14, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 1:49 PM
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@...
wrote :
I
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote :
Actually, as I recall, they were planning to do some studies to see whether
soma could be detected. Whether they ever did them, with no result, or called
them off, I don't know.
You are hilarious! I recall someone on the sidhi
it. That's all.
On Thu, 4/3/14, steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... wrote:
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 3:49 AM
You know
Michael, I wish I knew more
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote :
Ann, I think it would be pretty involved and costly for the TMO to perform
endoscopies on hundreds of sidhas in order to have a valid study about soma in
the stomach! For one thing, I've always been put under when I have mine
I am, you may be surprised to learn, in 100 percent agreement with you and Doug
on this. I'd add that IMO, Maharishi understood Life, the Universe, and
Everything on the purely metaphysical level, the common denominator, as it
were, of science and religion and every other area of human
Judy, this reminds me of when I was a really new TMer in Dec 1975 and Maharishi
attended a physics conference at MIU and someone said, about the alleged
connection between TM and physics: Maharishi, what if it turns out NOT to be
true. And I'm paraphrasing what Maharishi said: then we will
:
Thursday, April 3, 2014 7:47 AM
Subject:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
Cultmania
101. Isolation, mind altering practises, culturing a sense
of uniqueness and superiority through revelation of secret
and privileged knowledge... it's all there. The
paranoid, controlling and utopianist
Indeed, and why bother? Anyone who has read the 9th Mandala of the Rig Veda
will know it's a drink made from plant extracts.
Soma (Sanskrit सोम sóma), or Haoma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haoma (Avestan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan), from Proto-Indo-Iranian
Somehow the post title reminds me of Reuben and the Jets. (Or maybe
Soma and the Gods would make a good band name).
So the vedic seers were meth heads? :-D
On 04/03/2014 11:47 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
Indeed, and why bother? Anyone who has read the 9th Mandala of the Rig
Veda will know it's
Must have been something excitable, what with all the trouble they gave the
black skinned Rakshasas in the Golden Age...
I think Soma and the Gods would make an excellent band name.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote :
Somehow the post title reminds me of Reuben and
You mean, anyone who has read the Ninth Mandala in the translation TM uses will
know that's how the Ninth Mandala in that translation describes soma. But they
won't necessarily know to what degree that description is
symbolic/poetic/metaphorical rather than literal, or even whether the original
Oh yeah! I had forgotten that all the demons in the vedas are said to be black
skinned! That'll create controversy and sell more books and films!
On Thu, 4/3/14, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma
@...
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 11:41 AM
Am I missing
something, because isn't that what
Are you for real?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote :
You mean, anyone who has read the Ninth Mandala in the translation TM uses
will know that's how the Ninth Mandala in that translation describes soma. But
they won't necessarily know to what degree that description
You know Share, some people compare it to cannibalism. I don't. I don't see
anything wrong with it. As rituals go, it seems as good a one as any. I don't
know if it was corrupted along the way somehow. It's been a while since I've
read the Bible, but supposedly that's the way it played out
didn't
see M flee a room just because chairs were upended.
On Thu, 4/3/14, steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 9:10
.
On Thu, 4/3/14, awoelflebater@... awoelflebater@... wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 1:49 PM
---In FairfieldLife
.
On Thu, 4/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@...
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 3:49 AM
On 4/2/2014 10:49 PM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote:
But do you really think they needed this to try to make a case of
Hindu roots for TM?
The roots of TM can be found in the ascetic tradition of the indigenous
inhabitants of South India - based on the yoga tradition; the yogins
and ascetics
:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 9:48 PM
If Unity
Consciousness is a reality, if God Consiousness is reality,
in my opinion
Bit of a problem responding intelligently, eh, Salyavin?
Are you for real?
You mean, anyone who has read the Ninth Mandala in the translation TM uses
will know that's how the Ninth Mandala in that translation describes soma. But
they won't necessarily know to what degree that
the
word came down to give 'em back to the Movement. I think
its a very interesting bit of Movement history.
On Thu, 4/3/14, steve.sundur@...
steve.sundur@...
wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife
] Re: Soma and the Gods
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 9:48 PM
If Unity
Consciousness is a reality, if God Consiousness is reality,
in my opinion there would be some
On 4/3/2014 1:34 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote:
The whole IDEA of them is that these supposed gods and goddesses are
so neurotic and so insecure that they'll respond to being praised by
puny-ass humans praying to them and offering them fruit and hankies
and large sums of cash.
You probably
On 4/3/2014 6:04 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
That's what the governors who taught the courses told us and those
would be Greg Palma, Walter Gibbons and Paul Potter (for those here
who love to have sources quoted).
Never pass up an opportunity to fink on your old friends if that can
help
On 4/3/2014 6:41 AM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote:
Evidently that is something the Vedas concern themselves with.
The sacramental basis of the Vedic Religion was the preparation and
consumption of a decoction obtained by mixing the juices of various
psychoactive ingredients, one of which may
On 4/3/2014 8:03 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote:
TM teachers paid for pretty much *everything* they gave away at the TM
centers or otherwise distributed or made available to meditators
there. Tapes, promo materials, books, etc. Many people who never
became TM teachers themselves seem to think that
On 04/03/2014 03:20 PM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote:
Michael aside from the philosophical question of we are enlightened,
we just aren't aware of it, what I am speculating is that if there
are states of enlightenment, and I believe there are, there are likely
to be unique chemicals that
On 4/3/2014 10:08 AM, Share Long wrote:
Theoretically they could even find soma in the blood.
Maybe, but after all, the ancient Vedic rishis used to drink the soma
but the recipe was lost thousands of years ago and the plant does not
grow in India. But, I think the point is that you only
The unforgettable image of ravening Gods jostling each other to feed at the
stomachs of TMers around the world to get their share of the mythical Soma--is
this Maharishi's image, or the image of the guy who wrote this essay, Michael?
(I've read the transcript of this tape, by the way, so don't
You know Michael, I wish I knew more about Soma, about the Vedas, about the
Vedic Gods. But I don't. There are some who think it is all a bunch of
jibberish. I think Barry may be in this camp, and I hope I am not
misrepresenting him.
But I do generally have respect for ancient traditions.
Cultmania 101. Isolation, mind altering practises, culturing a sense of
uniqueness and superiority through revelation of secret and privileged
knowledge... it's all there. The paranoid, controlling and utopianist leader is
optional to cults but rather common.
Soma and Xenu seem to be
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